{kjd-tier} Armor Class and Defense Bonus (was: Question for the group: Are people actually playing 4th Ed. D&D or just posting to spite WOTC)
Keith Davies
> Keith wrote:
>>
>> Pretty much, I'd like to reduce dependence on equipment. Right now
>> unless you have high Dex you pretty much need to tank up if you want
>> decent AC (and the high Dex crowd gets treated pretty damn decently;
>> I've posted on this before).
>
> The Dex bonus to D&D AC implies very strongly, if not outright supports
> the notion that speed and agility make you harder to hit. Which is fine
> of course. But given that premise it's all the more strange there is no
> combat skill/dodging component.
Dodge feat, but that's pretty weak.
>> Some combination of UA options might be in line. The analysis below is
>> based on assumptions relating to my Tiered Advancement scheme, so don't
>> worry if they don't entirely fit RAW expectations. The premise is
>> probably comparable, but the numbers will probably be off.
>
>> [custom rules snipped]
>
> Excellent. We're not basically on the same page, we are entirely on the
> same page. I would very much enjoy playing in your campaign! Your rules:
>
> 1) Make sense.
> 2) Are logical.
> 3) Support the genre very well.
> 4) Do not require any quirky or nonsensical abstractions to interpret
> combat.
>
> I love that the defense bonus does not stack with armour. This is a
> fabulous genre rule! It explains perfectly why peons wear armour while
> Conan, or other heroes can easily do without. You also have some non-AC
> additional benefits of armour which can still make it mildly attractive,
> but never essential for the hero.
As I said, I've riffed on armor in the past. I've also considered
having it grant energy resistance -- as tussock says, if you wanted to
design something to protect against fire, cold, and electricity, it'd
look almost exactly like full plate armor.
>> This may be a little rich, especially since Dex still goes on here,
>> and possibly the Dodge bonus below.
>
> Not at all. This is my idea of an excellent set of rules to cater for
> fantasy heroes.
Last night I considered also an Armor Focus ability that lets you apply
your martial training as a bonus to the damage conversion of your armor.
This could mean that a 'Ftr20' (classes don't exist per se in this
system, though you can simulate them reasonably well, or at least fill
the same niches acceptably) could have his full plate convert to
nonlethal damage 18 points for each time he's hit. Your typical
low-level opponent could leave a nasty bruise that'll go away soon
enough.
Actually, later consideration suggested I might want to allow the
martial training bonus apply to the AC from armor. It doesn't make a
difference at the high end (Ftr20 has +20 defense bonus already, full
plate with martial training bonus is +18), but it increases the layer of
overlap in the middle.
Level Martial Defense Armor
1-4 +2 +4 +10
5-8 +4 +8 +12
9-12 +6 +12 +14
13-16 +8 +16 +16
17-20 +10 +20 +18
With this, it looks like a fullmartial character who cares to take Armor
Focus at the appropriate level will continue to gain improving AC
benefits for using armor until the top of the Champion tier (16th
level).
Level Martial Defense Armor
13 +8 +14 +16
14 +8 +15 +16
15 +8 +15 +16
16 +8 +16 +16
17 +10 +18 +18
18 +10 +19 +18
19 +10 +19 +18
20 +10 +20 +18
So, if you have a character who chooses to focus on armor use, he can
continue to get direct benefit from armor (better AC than he'd get from
just defense bonus).
To compare (closest match to RAW, such as it might match... full martial
is at +1/1 BAB, half martial is at +3/4 BAB, both spend the ability
slots to get Armor Focus -- either one without this ability would have
+8 Armor bonus).
Full BAB/ Half BAB/ Non- BAB/
Level Martial Def Armor Martial Def Armor Martial Def Armor
1 +1 +1 +9 +0 +0 +8 +0 +0 +8
2 +1 +2 +9 +0 +1 +8 +0 +1 +8
3 +2 +3 +10 +1 +2 +9 +0 +1 +8
4 +2 +4 +10 +1 +3 +9 +0 +2 +8
5 +3 +5 +11 +1 +3 +9 +0 +2 +8
6 +3 +6 +11 +1 +4 +9 +0 +3 +8
7 +4 +7 +12 +2 +5 +10 +0 +3 +8
8 +4 +8 +12 +2 +6 +10 +0 +4 +8
9 +5 +9 +13 +2 +6 +10 +0 +4 +8
10 +5 +10 +13 +2 +7 +10 +0 +5 +8
11 +6 +11 +14 +3 +8 +11 +0 +5 +8
12 +6 +12 +14 +3 +9 +11 +0 +6 +8
13 +7 +13 +15 +3 +9 +11 +0 +6 +8
14 +7 +14 +15 +3 +10 +11 +0 +7 +8
15 +8 +15 +16 +4 +11 +12 +0 +7 +8
16 +8 +16 +16 +4 +12 +12 +0 +8 +8
17 +9 +17 +17 +4 +12 +12 +0 +8 +8
18 +9 +18 +17 +4 +13 +12 +0 +9 +8
19 +10 +19 +18 +5 +14 +13 +0 +9 +8
20 +10 +20 +18 +5 +15 +13 +0 +10 +8
In the fullmartial and halfmartial cases the bonuses can be somewhat
accelerated (halfmartial by taking Martial Training at levels 4n+1
instead of at 4n+3, fullmartial by taking Improved Martial training at
levels 4n+2 insted of 4n+3). The fullmartial character can also speed
up the BAB/Def by taking Martial Training and Improved Martial Training
at levels 4n+1 (but then can't have the matching Armor Focus until level
4n+2... though he can still have the previous level, so the armor bonus
would only be two points lower).
A fullmartial character can choose to exceed the benefits gained from
armor by ninth level (don't take Armor Focus). At this point he's
better at avoiding being hit than someone wearing full plate, though he
doesn't get the Damage Conversion -- there is even still a benefit to
wearing armor.
On the other hand, a halfmartial or fullmartial character who takes
Armor Focus will continue to gain improved benefits (besides Damage
Conversion) from wearing full plate, until 18th level. He has better
Defense Bonus by ninth level, but does better while wearing comparable
armor right from first level.
>> If you want something simpler, have the armor provide DR instead. I
>> think I like how the damage conversion works -- a fight doesn't last
>> any less long (unless you're getting hit by a lot of nonlethal
>> attacks), but a certain amount of damage can be recovered just by
>> taking a breather.
>
> I like DR. It doesn't have to be big numbers. Even a base of 1 for
> leather, 2 for chain and 3 for plate is fine for me.
DR's a simpler approach, but I'd like to see better than +1..+3.
> I do appreciate this notion of INT contributing to a reflex save by
> virtue of your character being able to perceive dangers before they
> are imminent and taking steps to avoid it, rather than simply waiting
> for the last moment but making an agile dodge due to great reflexes.
> That's why I felt it was an elegant concept.
>
> However, the danger lies in mixing reflexes with an abstract ability
> to perceive danger and take precautions. I prefer to leave the latter
> to role-playing, e.g. the player of a mage deciding to take cover
> before the arrows start flying.
>
> I would agree completely with removing INT from the AC bonus equation.
> I'd argue that at the moment the sword is swinging at you, only
> reflexes can help. If you were really intelligent you might have been
> _over there_ instead, where the orc can't swing his sword at you in
> the first place.
I agree with both of these approaches. Someone smart simply doesn't get
into the middle of things where he can get hurt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JraZLtmXWIE <-- Arrogant Worms describe
this fairly well, I think.
Keith
--
Keith Davies "Do you know what is in beer? The strength
keith....@kjdavies.org to bear the things you can't change, and
keith....@gmail.com wisdom to ignore them and fsck off for
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