McNaughton $ Gunn - don't use them!
Ryan S Johnson
Ok folks, here is a little tail why publishers should not use the
printers, McNaughton & Gunn, even though they have some of the best
quotes in the industry. This is the story of how they have handles a job
we gave them.
Second week in July:
Project is given to them to print 2,000 books. We had been in
communication with them for two months making sure we got everything
they needed in the proper format to them in order to complete the
project in time for Gen Con. They had a standard 21 working day policy
at that time.
Late third week in July:
We recieve a call from one of their pre press operators, saying
they can't do anything with the post script format we had given them. I
asked why and was told they didn't except files in that format.
Considering they had two different people tell us to put it into
potscript and there should eb no problems I thought that rediculous. We
had also supplied them with camera ready copies of everything, just to
be safe. They said they could go ahead and do the job from the canera
readies.
We told them to go ahead, but at that point their sales rep said
it would not be ready by Gen Con as promised. When asked why they hadn't
asked us to go with the camera ready copies before letting a week and a
half slip by they had no answers.
We took the job from them and tried to get it done (fast)
through a local printer who thought they could accomplish the job in
just 8 days. Problems with compatibility of our cover file and the
printers outdated computers caused the book to miss Gen Con.
--
But no serious damage done, as the official release date had
been scheduled for a month after that point. Unfortunately, (bad luck)
the existing cover file gets damaged. We don't have a zip disk drive, so
had to go through the steps of arranging to get the file back to disk or
directly to the printer.
Two days after Gen Con the job is returned to Mcnaughton & Gunn
who assures us they can accept files via the Internet. The complete job
specs are sent back to them including the camera ready interiors and
first half of the job payment. I talk our customer service rep and then
says someone from their pre press department will contact me shortly to
arrange the file transfer.
Two days pass and I get NO phone calls. I call our rep again and
he gives me a number to the pre press department and a name. I call them
and get their answering machine and leave a message.
Two more days pass, still NO phone call. I begin calling every
day, sometimes twice a day, always getting their answering machine, but
no return calls. I call our sales rep several times to get him to set
things up. He assures me that I will get a call later on those days or
the next day at the latest. a week and a half pass like this.
Finally I get an answer instead of the machine at the pre press
department, and start arranging the file transfer. The info is paased on
to the head of the department who is suppose to call me back. (yeah
right). Two more days pass, NO phone call. I start calling that
department on the hour every hour till i get an answer, a day later. We
arange the direct file transfer. McNaughton & Gunn's connection to the
Internet crashes as we try. Over the next two days we try three more
times to transfer the cover file, each times crashing their connection.
They say it can't be done and that it is a problem with our file.
(again, yerah right.)
I get several individuals to transfer the file to, checking to
make sure it isn't the file. Three are able to download it, but one is
not. Still not sure why that one couldn't. Anyway, we then arrange to
have the file put up on two different FTP sites for the pre press
department to download and arrange for them to do so. A week and a half
later I get through past their machine again where I am told that they
couldn't download the file of the net either. Foolishly we arrange to
transfer the file once more, having them download and install ICQ, which
has always provided good transfers between our production staff. That
takes a week for them to accomplish. We try the transfer and their
system crashes. I'm ready to chalk it up to complete incompetence on
their part.
We contact our sales rep and tell him that their service has
been pathetic and we'll be going with another printer, telling him to
ship back everything, including the check, which they had already cashed
(came through on the bank statements over that time). The next day I get
a call from their accounting department saying a refund is impossible at
this point because they have already begun the job. I tell them what I
think of that. Furthermore, I ask them to tell me just how they have
begun the job, as they still don't even have the cover file. I get no
answer.
I call my sales rep again and tell him that we will follow
through with McNaughton and Gunn, but only if once we mailed out the
cover file they put our job on top priority, cutting down the printing
time. He assure me that at top speed they can complete the task within 8
to 10 days.
We priority mail out the cover file on Zip disk, knowing it
should arrive the next day at the latest. (the printer is only a 45
minute drive from our office). I call them the next day and they say it
has not arrived, then the next day as well. They say they are checking
their mail twice daily, but I start to doubt that. They have a P.O.Box.
I decide to test my theory and get a letter directed at my sales rep
together and drive it down to their local post office and get the letter
dropped into their box ( I see it personally). I then continue to call
daily to see if they have recieved the file. They continue to tell me it
has not arrived, though they continue to get their mail twice daily.
A week and a half later my sales rer calls me, having recieved
Both the cover file and the letter I had delivered. They had been lying
to me about checking their P.O. Box twice daily and had in fact checked
it once every two weeks or so.
Why would they do such a thing? I begin to suspect they have
severly over booked their press and are letting certain aspects of their
business slid until they get cought up. Furthermore, I suspect they are
continuing to push aside all of their smaller jobs in favor of getting
the larger runs printed, regardless of when they we submitted or quoted
for completion.
My sales rep assures me he will get the job scheduled on
priority, and this the same day the disk "arrived". He quotes me between
12 and 15 working days. Not particularly really fast, but a rush job for
them. He also goves us a 3% discount because of all the delays. Ok, I
finally stop calling them on a daily basis because I believe the job is
being attended to.
Wrong...
I get a call a week and a half later from someone in their pre
press department who is just then looking at the job specs for the first
time. I'm furious. Furthermore, they have no clue what needs doing. They
are looking at the disk we originally given them, which I had told them
to pitch (back before Gen Con) and they have no clue that they need to
do the job from the camera ready pages we supplied. I have to take the
time to tell them what and how the job needs to be done. Anyone find
that completely wrong?
Furious that the job had just then been stared I call my sales
rep again..., only he is no longer a sales rep and has been promoted. I
get a new sales rep that has no history of the project. Futhermore,
since she has no history of the project she tries to re quote us the
price for the job, forgetting the 3% discount, decreasing the book count
by 200 copies and increasing the cost because of two paper price
increases. It take me a week to get ti through to them that we we're
only going to pay for the original quote--period.
Meanwhile I am also trying to get a time quote from the new
sales rep, so I might actually know when the book will finally be
shipped to us. I keep expecting to get the review copy of the blues for
the cover in the mail at any time. A week later my sales rep calls me
with the schedule (things were improving, the sales rep was actually
calling me!!), but that just happened to be a total of 23 working days
from the day I had recieved the call from their pre press department,
which was the day the job was actually started.
2 days slower than their quoted prijting time, and we were
suppose to be ona rush schedule. Needless to say I gave our sales rep
all kinds of grief insisting that she get in contact with their
scheduling department and get the job put on rush as promised. Three
days later I call her and she tells me that she has talked with their
scheduling department and nothing has been done.
I demand to talk to her boss.
Her boss does call me, which I then have to explain the entire
job hsitory to, before she can come to a decision. She doesn't deny that
they have screwed up countless times on our project, but is simply
unwilling to take efforts to get the schedule improved. So next I ask
for a further discount, trying to make the printer take some
responsability for their psthetic service. She refused that as well,
telling me it was against company policy to give discounts due to
scheduling. That was an obvious lie as they had already done so once.
The end observation, which I did get them to admit was this:
they over scheduled their job load, then continually pushed our job back
to make time to print their larger, higher paying jobs. They refuese to
show any concern whatsoever for their smaller accounts.
So this is my plea to you. Sent this message to any and every
book publisher you know of, including adveture games punlishers and any
other book publishers. Thw world should know exactly what McNaughton &
Gunn thinks of their clients and how they treat them. If they will not
take accountability for their own actions, the law of capitalism should
be able to make them accountable. Don't give them your jobs, especially
if you have print runs of 15,000 books or less, for they surely won't
care about your patronage either.
Pay a little extra and go to a printer that cares about your account.
Unless you can afford to have your printing job take FOUR months as
well.
Thanks for your time,
and remember to pass this along,
Ryan S Johnson
--
---------------------------------------------------
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
(Member of the GPA)
Contacts:
Ryan O. Johnson - President (sales & product inquires)
John L. Ross - Vice President (Web master)
Marisa K. Boese - Chief Editor
Web: http://www.guildofblades.com
e-mail: guildo...@guildofblades.com
Office: Guild of Blades
2002 E. Kalamazoo
Lansing, MI 48912
Phone: (517)267-1409
Ghostgames
Ryan S Johnson <ross...@pilot.msu.edu> wrote:
>Ok folks, here is a little tail why publishers should not use the
>printers, McNaughton & Gunn, even though they have some of the best
>quotes in the industry. This is the story of how they have handles a job
>we gave them.
<much grief snipped>
>Pay a little extra and go to a printer that cares about your account.
>Unless you can afford to have your printing job take FOUR months as
>well.
I've had two of my 3 books printed by McNaughton & Gunn. In fact, they
were the first printers I worked with (with the FUDGE book) -- and I
found them very helpful, professional, and completely able to hold up
their end of the bargain (everything was done well and on time).
I went with Gilliland Printing for my 2nd book, mostly because
Gilliland came in with a more attractive quote. My experience with
Gilliland was as good as my experience with M&G.
I went back to McNaughton & Gunn last spring, with "A Magical
Medley." (They came in with an even more attractive quote than
Gilliland did.) Again, they were very helpful, professional, and did
everything well and on time. They even credited my bill
when I reported that I didn't receive all the books listed on
the bill of lading (the shipment came in half a crate short) --
despite the fact that they couldn't trace the missing books (about
20 of them). (They also let the final payment slide for 45 days
while we tried to figure out what happened to those books.)
I would work with either of these printers again, without hesitation.
Caveat: I've *heard* that one's experiences with M&G can depend
greatly on which sales rep you get. But I've worked with Sherry
Sanderson, and have absolutely no complaints.
I also make a concerted effort not to rush a book to press...
(but then, I only do 1 a year. :-)
Best regards,
Ann Dupuis
Grey Ghost Press, Inc.
ghost...@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/ghostgames
MSiembieda
So this is my plea to you. Sent this message to any and every
book publisher you know of, including adveture games punlishers and any
other book publishers. Thw world should know exactly what McNaughton &
Gunn thinks of their clients and how they treat them. If they will not
take accountability for their own actions, the law of capitalism should
be able to make them accountable. Don't give them your jobs, especially
if you have print runs of 15,000 books or less, for they surely won't
care about your patronage either.<
We've been using McNaughton & Gunn for 14 years and have never had a problem
like this. What few problems we have had, all minor, have always been taken
care of immediately. This was true back when we were starting out in the 80s
when our print runs we're 10,000 copies, and sometimes less. Our experience
with M&G is that they're probably one of the best, highest quality, most
caring and professional printers out there. There have been many printers who
have tried to get our business to no avail.
Maryann Siembieda
Palladium Books, Inc.
Ghostgames
Ron Cole <clo...@concentric.net> wrote:
> Here's a quick Q.. how many books did you have printed?
>The original story tells of an order of 2000 books that was continually
>"pushed back" so that the publishing house could complete its larger
>orders. I am curious as to whether your order falls into the "larger
>order" category.
Same print run for all books I publish: 2,000 copies. FUDGE was a
small book (104 pages); A Magical Medley (also done by McNaughton
& Gunn) was larger (128 pages). Delays in the printing process of
either of these books originated solely with Grey Ghost Press, Inc. :-)
(In FUDGE's case, I sent a completely new cover design in the middle
of the process -- held up printing for an extra week. M&G *could* have
slipped the schedule further, since the original press schedule was blown
by me, not by them; but they didn't.)
On the other hand, I've been told by a friend in the industry that I have
some sort of invisible "teflon coating" that protects me from all the
nasty things that happen in this industry. You know; bad experiences
with printers, distributors that don't pay, law suits over property
rights, things like that. :-)
Personally, I think that "teflon coating" has a lot to do with the way
I relate to other people. If you're pleasant even when you're displeased,
you're more likely to get other people to *want* to correct whatever
you're displeased about...
Actually, come to think about it, it's probably more due to the fact
that I'm a woman; some folks in the game publishing industry may
handle me with extra care just for that reason. :-)
Or maybe I'm favored by the Secret Masters of Gaming, who're
sending agents around threatening to break knee caps on my behalf... ;-)
Don Perrin
In article <19971029140...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
ghost...@aol.com (Ghostgames) wrote:
> Or maybe I'm favored by the Secret Masters of Gaming, who're
> sending agents around threatening to break knee caps on my behalf... ;-)
I've been threatened several times with this. I can attest to its truth!
Don Perrin
================================================================
Don Perrin Visit our Web Site: http://www.mag7.com
Archangel Entertainment, Authority Publishing, Freelance Writer
================================================================
Guy McLimore
Ann Dupuis, ghost...@aol.com wrote:
> Or maybe I'm favored by the Secret Masters of Gaming, who're
> sending agents around threatening to break knee caps on my behalf... ;-)
You're welcome, Ann. Anything for a friend.
;-)
Guy McLimore / gu...@evansville.net
PlainLabel/Pocket Fantasy RPG Headquarters
http://plainlabel.galstar.com
We're putting the FUN back into role playing!
Larry D. Hols
Hallo,
Guy McLimore wrote:
>
> Ann Dupuis, ghost...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > Or maybe I'm favored by the Secret Masters of Gaming, who're
> > sending agents around threatening to break knee caps on my behalf... ;-)
>
> You're welcome, Ann. Anything for a friend.
I thought that was strange for you to have me do as a freelancer.
Now I know why.
Larry
Tim Byrd
Don Perrin wrote:
> Ken Whitman at Archangel runs a print brokering service which could save
> you some money, time, grief (and a lot of that from what I read) and still
> retain good quality printing.
Is this the same Ken Whitman who's so notorious for reneging on his contracts
with freelancers? If so, he doesn't sound like someone to do any kind of
business with.
Best,
Tim
*********************************
"If it makes you happy, it can't be that bad...
If it makes you happy, then why the hell are you so sad?"
-- Sheryl Crow
Cheer up. Come back to the Cabin, http://www.netime.com/~tbyrd
Sit a spell. :)
Don Perrin
In article <3457FD80...@full-moon.com>, Tim Byrd
<tb...@full-moon.com> wrote:
> Is this the same Ken Whitman who's so notorious for reneging on his contracts
> with freelancers? If so, he doesn't sound like someone to do any kind of
> business with.
Must be a completely different Ken Whitman. The man I work with is honest
to a fault. Please don't use this newsgroup to slander people. Not very
nice.
Guild of Blades
Ron Cole wrote:
>
> Ghostgames wrote:
> >
> [snip]
> > I would work with either of these printers again, without hesitation.
> >
> > Caveat: I've *heard* that one's experiences with M&G can depend
> > greatly on which sales rep you get. But I've worked with Sherry
> > Sanderson, and have absolutely no complaints.
> >
> > I also make a concerted effort not to rush a book to press...
> > (but then, I only do 1 a year. :-)
> >
>
> The original story tells of an order of 2000 books that was continually
> "pushed back" so that the publishing house could complete its larger
> orders. I am curious as to whether your order falls into the "larger
> order" category.
>
No, 2,000 books os a fairly small print run in the gaming industry and
VERY small compared to other types of book publishing. It was most
definately not a "larger order", which is why it continually recieved
poor treatment.
Pretty short sighted on McNaughton and Gunn when you consider that we
are preaparing 9 more releases before the end of the year.
Ghostgames
Ron Cole wrote:
> Here's a quick Q.. how many books did you have printed?
> The original story tells of an order of 2000 books that was continually
> "pushed back" so that the publishing house could complete its larger
> orders. I am curious as to whether your order falls into the "larger
> order" category.
And Ryan Johnson wrote:
> No, 2,000 books os a fairly small print run in the gaming industry and
>VERY small compared to other types of book publishing. It was most
>definately not a "larger order", which is why it continually recieved
>poor treatment.
>
> Pretty short sighted on McNaughton and Gunn when you consider that we
>are preaparing 9 more releases before the end of the year.
Actually, Ron Cole's question was directed at me. I'd responded that my own
experiences with McNaughton and Gunn were quite different from that of the
Guild of Blades. (I'll continue to do business with them despite your horror
story). Ron asked the insightful question to see if perhaps my experiences
were better because my print runs were higher. (In your original post you'd
hinted that M&G had pushed you aside in favor of larger, more lucrative jobs.)
And the answer to Ron's question is that both FUDGE and "A Magical Medley" were
printed in runs of 2,000 copies. So my jobs were comparable to yours. In
neither case did I receive "poor treatment," and especially not due to the
comparatively small size of the print run. As someone else pointed out, M&G
does a *lot* of work in the game industry with press runs from 1,000 to 5,000
(the lower end of print runs in this business).
Ryan, it appears from everything I've experienced myself and heard here in this
thread and elsewhere that your experience with McNaughton and Gunn was
anomalous. So while other M&G customers (like myself) don't begrudge you your
decision to not do business with them in the future, we'll be basing our own
decisions on our own experiences with the company.
Tim Byrd
Don Perrin wrote:
> In article <3457FD80...@full-moon.com>, Tim Byrd
> <tb...@full-moon.com> wrote:
>
> > Is this the same Ken Whitman who's so notorious for reneging on his contracts
> > with freelancers? If so, he doesn't sound like someone to do any kind of
> > business with.
>
> Must be a completely different Ken Whitman. The man I work with is honest
> to a fault. Please don't use this newsgroup to slander people. Not very
> nice.
I asked, I did not state, and I asked because I've seen quite a few freelancers
complain about "Ken Whitman" screwing them over. I didn't slander anyone, but I
felt that, if the man is the same man, people should be aware of possible dangers
in dealing with him.
Now I'm inspired to dig further and let you -- and everyone else -- know if this is
the same guy I've heard about. If he's not, I'll post that he's not. If he is, I'll
simply veriy that he's the guy others seem to have had serious problems with.
Tim Byrd
I wrote:
> Don Perrin wrote:
>
> > In article <3457FD80...@full-moon.com>, Tim Byrd
> > <tb...@full-moon.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Is this the same Ken Whitman who's so notorious for reneging on his contracts
> > > with freelancers? If so, he doesn't sound like someone to do any kind of
> > > business with.
> >
> > Must be a completely different Ken Whitman. The man I work with is honest
> > to a fault. Please don't use this newsgroup to slander people. Not very
> > nice.
>
> I asked, I did not state, and I asked because I've seen quite a few freelancers
> complain about "Ken Whitman" screwing them over. I didn't slander anyone, but I
> felt that, if the man is the same man, people should be aware of possible dangers
> in dealing with him.
>
> Now I'm inspired to dig further and let you -- and everyone else -- know if this is
> the same guy I've heard about. If he's not, I'll post that he's not. If he is, I'll
> simply veriy that he's the guy others seem to have had serious problems with.
Well, that didn't take me that long at all.
I got several notes from people in the industry verifying that this Ken Whitman is,
indeed, the Ken Whitman who has allegedly failed to honor quite a few contracts in the
past. In addition to other specifics, I understand that he owed Nigel Findley quite a
bit of money for quite a bit of time before Nigel died, and he has still failed to make
good on what he owes to Nigel's family. The folks who contacted me warn vehemently
against dealing with him.
Mind, I have never met Ken Whitman, I have never dealt with him in any way, and I
certainly have no personal reason to bear him malice. I'm just conveying what I, an
industry professional, have heard from other professionals who have had dealings with
him. I am also very inclined to believe the people I've heard from on the matter, based
on my personal assocaitions with some of them, and on the industry reputations of
others.
If Ken is being unfairly characterized, I would suggest he take action to clear his
name, because, whatever the reality, he has a very bad rep among many others in the
gaming business.
--