Clockpunk, anyone?
DataPacRat
thinking about what possibilities there are for clockpunk, TL(4+1) (ala
Leonardo da Vinci's wilder imaginings, or more reliable inventions of
'tinker gnomes'). The question seems to come down to, what TL5 advances
can be made with TL4 technology?
The central TL5 invention seems to me to be the steam engine. TL4 doesn't
have many choices to build replacements from: waterwheels and windmills
(which aren't that portable), and, as Vehicles calls it, the "Muscle
Engine" - which makes me start thinking along the lines of a railroad
engine powered by oxen on treadmills... Without the precise milling
necessary for steam-engine cylinders available, what else might work?
Historically, steam engines led to railroads, which helped kick-start
electric telegraphs. Let's say that electric power isn't available;
mechanical semaphore networks make a reasonable replacement, although that
wouldn't really work for cross-ocean communication. Any suggestions?
Mass production is harder to define, and I don't know as much about its
development. Anybody?
Lighter-then-air craft (hot-air balloons and hydrogen zeppelins) are
pretty firmly TL5. As I recall, hydrogen was mostly made available by
zapping water with electricity, which is currently verboten; leaving the
question of how hard the jump from childrens' floating hollow-eggshell
toys to lifting people would be...
Any other thoughts?
Thank you for your time,
--
DataPacRat
JefWilson
<spam.datap...@warren.kill.com> writes:
>After reading some of what Steampunk has to say about TL(5+1), I'm
>thinking about what possibilities there are for clockpunk, TL(4+1) (ala
>Leonardo da Vinci's wilder imaginings, or more reliable inventions of
>'tinker gnomes'). The question seems to come down to, what TL5 advances
>can be made with TL4 technology?
A lot of this depends on the milieu that you're attempting to emulate.
>The central TL5 invention seems to me to be the steam engine. TL4
>doesn't have many choices to build replacements from: waterwheels and
>windmills (which aren't that portable), and, as Vehicles calls it, the
>"Muscle Engine" - which makes me start thinking along the lines of a
>railroad engine powered by oxen on treadmills...
Much more efficient to just let the oxen pull the train. Of course
railroads demand that the material used for rails be not worth stealing.
Of course where movement isn't required you can attach animals to some
sort of wheel or screw and have them walk in circles. Leo Frankowski in
his Cross-Time Engineer book also put a pig in a barrel and forced it to
trot to provide power.
>Without the precise milling necessary for steam-engine cylinders
>available, what else might work?
Where do you want to use it? About the only remaining application I can
see are riverboats. (Steam power sea travel is essentially a TL/6
phenomena.) Anyway for riverboats you might want to consider something
along the lines of harnessed giant otters . . .
>Historically, steam engines led to railroads, which helped kick-start
>electric telegraphs. Let's say that electric power isn't available;
>mechanical semaphore networks make a reasonable replacement, although
>that wouldn't really work for cross-ocean communication. Any
>suggestions?
Trans-oceanic telegraphs are _very_ late TL/5. Just ignore them.
>Mass production is harder to define, and I don't know as much about its
>development. Anybody?
Mass production was driven by political (military standardization) and
social (breakdown of the apprenticeship system) factors. There's nothing
there that wasn't possible back in TL/1.
>Lighter-then-air craft (hot-air balloons and hydrogen zeppelins) are
>pretty firmly TL5. As I recall, hydrogen was mostly made available by
>zapping water with electricity, which is currently verboten; leaving
>the question of how hard the jump from childrens' floating
>hollow-eggshell toys to lifting people would be...
I've heard that the Chinese could have built manned kites at what GURPS
considers TL/4. The question is what's driving the need? In one of my
worlds I had an fairly impassable cliff, many miles long. A trade route
passed over the cliff using tethered balloons going up and parachutes
going down. It worked well, but only because of the peculiarities of
that situation.
Jeff A. Wilson
http://members.aol.com/JefWilson/rpg/
Joseph Michael Bay
> Lighter-then-air craft (hot-air balloons and hydrogen zeppelins) are
>pretty firmly TL5. As I recall, hydrogen was mostly made available by
>zapping water with electricity, which is currently verboten; leaving the
>question of how hard the jump from childrens' floating hollow-eggshell
>toys to lifting people would be...
You could probably liberate hydrogen from lye (NaOH) (caustic soda)
and metal. Not sure how effective or efficient it would be, though.
--
Joseph M. Bay Lamont Sanford Junior University
Putting the "harm" in molecular pharmacology since 1998
t3H quIc/< 6roWn Ph0x0r jUmP3D ovER T3h 14zY do9 !( @|=>
Do you like http://www.stanford.edu/~jmbay gladiator movies?
Bryan Derksen
<spam.datap...@warren.kill.com> wrote:
> The central TL5 invention seems to me to be the steam engine. TL4 doesn't
>have many choices to build replacements from: waterwheels and windmills
>(which aren't that portable), and, as Vehicles calls it, the "Muscle
>Engine" - which makes me start thinking along the lines of a railroad
>engine powered by oxen on treadmills... Without the precise milling
>necessary for steam-engine cylinders available, what else might work?
For clockpunk? Spring power! Coil springs of various sizes and
power-storage capacity, kept inside sealed cases, with an axel that
plugs into the main drive shaft of whatever you need it to power. You
would have massive wind and water-powered "winding plants" where spent
coils are charged up and then shipped back out to wherever they're
used.
Of course, for cities, you can have torsional "utilities." Big
underground drive shafts or chains running throughout the city powered
by wind or water plants that industrial or home users can tap into
using a clutch. How such usage would be metered is left as an exercise
for the reader. The undercity would be an enormous network of tunnels
with drive shafts and gears and chains running every which way,
attended by engineers scurrying to and fro keeping it all oiled and
repaired. This sort of system would probably be too expensive to set
up for an entire city, so I imagine it'd be mainly concentrated in
industrial and upper-class neighborhoods. You could use this to power
the street signals at intersections, perhaps.
> Historically, steam engines led to railroads, which helped kick-start
>electric telegraphs. Let's say that electric power isn't available;
>mechanical semaphore networks make a reasonable replacement, although that
>wouldn't really work for cross-ocean communication. Any suggestions?
You've got me there. Perhaps long pneumatic tubes, shooting cannisters
of mail between cities? Still no good for ocean crossing, though.
> Lighter-then-air craft (hot-air balloons and hydrogen zeppelins) are
>pretty firmly TL5. As I recall, hydrogen was mostly made available by
>zapping water with electricity, which is currently verboten; leaving the
>question of how hard the jump from childrens' floating hollow-eggshell
>toys to lifting people would be...
Spring-powered ornithopters, maybe? :)
> Any other thoughts?
The spring cartidges should come in a variety of standardized sizes,
like power cells in Ultratech. You'd have thumb-sized ones useful for
powering small handheld machines, perhaps up to a foot across for
hand-held heavy weapons (which TL is gunpowder, again? I like the idea
of a spring-powered repeater crossbow. :). Horseless carriages would
use bigger spring cartridges still, and trains would use the biggest
mobile spring cartidges around. I imagine a train's spring car would
be separate from the engine car, connected to it by a shaft with a
universal joint. Instead of refuelling, the spring car would get
swapped out for a fresh one at intervals and the old one would get
sent off to the nearest winding plant for recharging. Trains going
long distances between spring depots would have to haul their own
extra springs with them.
Such a spring would store an enormous (and physically unrealistic)
amount of power in it. I'd hate to see what would happen if one were
to go "spang!" in an accident; the exploding coils could probably cut
buildings in half with their flailing brass ribbons. Winding plants
would have to take precautions against overwinding and against
defective springs.
DataPacRat
> DataPacRat wrote:
>> The central TL5 invention seems to me to be the steam engine. TL4 doesn't
>>have many choices to build replacements from: waterwheels and windmills
>>(which aren't that portable), and, as Vehicles calls it, the "Muscle
>>Engine" - which makes me start thinking along the lines of a railroad
>>engine powered by oxen on treadmills... Without the precise milling
>>necessary for steam-engine cylinders available, what else might work?
>
> For clockpunk? Spring power!
Of course, how could I forget. :)
Let's see; according to G:Vehicles, storing power in "clockwork"
(representing springs, giant rubber bands, etc) takes up:
1 kWs = 0.25 lbs, 0.005 cf, $5
4 kWs = 1 lb, 0.02 cf, $20
200 kWs = 50 lbs, 1 cf, $1,000
And rewinding by hand takes kWs * 50 / (ST of the rewinder) seconds (or,
for water wheels and the like, presumably kWs / (kW of the plant)).
According to Steampunk, the approximate power required for a hand-tool or
small appliance is 0.05 kW, and so could run for 20 seconds per kWs stored
in the clockwork.
And, for transmitting power, you can use "telodynamics" (pulleys, etc),
which costs $5 per mile ($100 in G:V money), and loses 50% after one mile
(100% at two miles).
> Of course, for cities, you can have torsional "utilities." Big
> underground drive shafts or chains running throughout the city powered
> by wind or water plants that industrial or home users can tap into
> using a clutch. How such usage would be metered is left as an exercise
> for the reader. The undercity would be an enormous network of tunnels
> with drive shafts and gears and chains running every which way,
> attended by engineers scurrying to and fro keeping it all oiled and
> repaired. This sort of system would probably be too expensive to set
> up for an entire city, so I imagine it'd be mainly concentrated in
> industrial and upper-class neighborhoods. You could use this to power
> the street signals at intersections, perhaps.
I like it. :)
Aaron Guzman
--
Aaron Guzman
"DataPacRat" <spam.datap...@warren.kill.com> wrote in message
news:7O5O8.6102$z56.1...@news20.bellglobal.com...
> After reading some of what Steampunk has to say about TL(5+1), I'm
> thinking about what possibilities there are for clockpunk, TL(4+1) (ala
> Leonardo da Vinci's wilder imaginings, or more reliable inventions of
> 'tinker gnomes'). The question seems to come down to, what TL5 advances
> can be made with TL4 technology?
>
>
>
> Lighter-then-air craft (hot-air balloons and hydrogen zeppelins) are
> pretty firmly TL5. As I recall, hydrogen was mostly made available by
> zapping water with electricity, which is currently verboten; leaving the
> question of how hard the jump from childrens' floating hollow-eggshell
> toys to lifting people would be...
>
>
Actually, there was a proposed lighter-than-air craft theorized at that time
that used a vacuum inside large thin-shelled copper balls providing the
necessary lift. I'm working from memory so I can't right now provide the
who,
when, and where. I'll have to look it up.
Mark K Styles
> Any other thoughts?
A Clockpunk setting would be fun. Hard to say what the "feel" would be,
depends on what TL5 stuff you can interpret as TL4+1. One noticable
difference would be things would be a lot cleaner in cities. Still a lot of
urbanization but no coal to burn.
I actually made a couple of TL4 (not TL4+1) "Clockpunk"-type guns a while
ago for some reason. Basically, just spring-powered pistols.
Integral Spring Pistol
Damage=1d+1cr 1/2D=35 Max=500 Acc=+1 SS=10 RoF=1/20* Rcl=-1 MinST=8
WPS=0.1lb(24mmBall) LWt=2.75lb Cost=$1100
*1/20 is approximate. If more detail is desired, it tale 160/ST seconds to
wind the spring and 5s to load the bullet.
Clip Spring Pistol
Damage=1d+1cr 1/2D=35 Max=500 Acc=+1 SS=10 RoF=1/10* Rcl=-1 MinST=8
WPS=0.1lb(24mmBall) ClipWt=1.25lbs Lwt=3lb Cost=$1000+$100/Clip
*It takes 10s to replace a used coil with a ready, prepared coil (5s to
remove, 5s to replace). After it has been removed from the pistol, it takes
20s to prepare a used coil (15s (or 160/ST seconds) to wind, 5s to load the
bullet).
Tim Martin
would hope you post it, very cool.
I am not sure if this helps, but I knew someone online a while back who ran
a D&Dish campaign (it was an online campaign that had a lot of house rules),
and several of the main creations were clockwork creatures. He played a
clockwork griffon is memory serves, and others played a clockwork dragon.
Good question as to what the "feel" would be. Frankly, I have no idea. It
would be something original. I guess part of that would depend upon the
rules of the natural and physical world, and whether or not there was magic.
Also questions as to how far reaching these innovations would be; I could
imagine modifiying Florence or Venice with clockpunk, but not say Russia or
Egypt. Maybe the Italian city states, particularly Florence, Genoa, and
Venice used clockpunk to maintain a decisive edge over rivals? I am not sure
if clockpunk guns would be better than "regular" guns, but maybe clockpunk
ships, submarines, and flying craft would help them against Spanish and
Ottoman Empire rivals in the Mediterrean (those being the two chief rivals
for particularly Venetian power in the early modern age). Perhaps some of
the Ottoman sieges of some of the islands of the Aegean could have been
releived by clockpunk aircraft carrying in or dropping supplies, or even
further back a bit the seige of Constantinople itself?
This sort of reminds me of the Gernsback timeline in GURPS: Alternate Earths
where Tesla's inventions totaly change the world.
Hope that helps.
Tim
R. G. 'Stumpy' Marsh
<spam.datap...@warren.kill.com> wrote:
> Let's see; according to G:Vehicles, storing power in "clockwork"
>(representing springs, giant rubber bands, etc) takes up:
>
>1 kWs = 0.25 lbs, 0.005 cf, $5
>4 kWs = 1 lb, 0.02 cf, $20
>200 kWs = 50 lbs, 1 cf, $1,000
I notice this is a linear progression, springs are 0.25 lbs, 0.005cf
and $5 per kWs, regardless of size.
Stumpy.
--
R.G. "Stumpy" Marsh Timaru, New Zealand
<http://marsh.orcon.net.nz/>
Bryan Derksen
<spam.datap...@warren.kill.com> wrote:
>Bryan Derksen <bder...@rem0vegpu.srv.ualberta.ca> wrote:
>> For clockpunk? Spring power!
>
> Of course, how could I forget. :)
>
> Let's see; according to G:Vehicles, storing power in "clockwork"
>(representing springs, giant rubber bands, etc) takes up:
Cool. Not having a copy of Vehicles, I had no idea GURPS already had
detailed rules for this kind of thing. :)
>> Of course, for cities, you can have torsional "utilities." Big
>> underground drive shafts or chains running throughout the city powered
>> by wind or water plants that industrial or home users can tap into
>> using a clutch.
>
> I like it. :)
Now that I think about it, another alternative for transmitting power
migh be hydraulics. Big, high-pressure water mains that run small
water wheels or water turbines on site. But even if this is a more
efficient method, I think I still prefer the clanking clattering
mechanical power transmission system; a bunch of pipes is boring
without lots of hissing steam and gnomish engineers swarming all over
it. :)
Mark K Styles
"Bryan Derksen" wrote...
>> Historically, steam engines led to railroads, which helped kick-start
>>electric telegraphs. Let's say that electric power isn't available;
>>mechanical semaphore networks make a reasonable replacement, although
>>that wouldn't really work for cross-ocean communication. Any suggestions?
>
> You've got me there. Perhaps long pneumatic tubes, shooting cannisters
> of mail between cities? Still no good for ocean crossing, though.
Ah, recalled a thread a this sort of topic. Here's the Google address to
the original post:
<http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&selm=20001226154638.2361
4.00002006%40nso-ct.aol.com>
W Brian McDonald
driven by the exploding force of gunpowder. This drives the piston
and doesn't require anything like the same degree of engineering
precision as a steam engine. be pretty scenic to watch such a
contraption from a safe distance. One could also have rocket powered
flight and vehicles. Just need to postulate some long burning
compound to burn.
DataPacRat
> DataPacRat wrote:
>> After reading some of what Steampunk has to say about TL(5+1), I'm
>> thinking about what possibilities there are for clockpunk, TL(4+1) (ala
>> Leonardo da Vinci's wilder imaginings, or more reliable inventions of
>> 'tinker gnomes'). The question seems to come down to, what TL5 advances
>> can be made with TL4 technology?
>
> A lot of this depends on the milieu that you're attempting to emulate.
Well... none in particular yet, I'm still digging up ideas. Maybe
something along the lines of a post-Renaissance culture, but with the
post-1700 engineering based on pre-1700 science.
>> Lighter-then-air craft (hot-air balloons and hydrogen zeppelins) are
>> pretty firmly TL5. As I recall, hydrogen was mostly made available by
>> zapping water with electricity, which is currently verboten; leaving
>> the question of how hard the jump from childrens' floating
>> hollow-eggshell toys to lifting people would be...
>
> I've heard that the Chinese could have built manned kites at what GURPS
> considers TL/4.
In fact, GURPS: China gives some descriptions. :)
> The question is what's driving the need?
Well, just for a start, there's military observation. Or, if a mechanical
semaphore network is in place, then raising the swing-arms (or shutters,
or whatever) would make them visible at much greater distances, offering
faster transmissions (at least in good weather...). And then, if they can
actually move about (with a daVinci-style pedal and propeller, perhaps),
well, even more possibilities arise...
Iain Sharp
(Bryan Derksen) wrote:
>Now that I think about it, another alternative for transmitting power
>migh be hydraulics. Big, high-pressure water mains that run small
>water wheels or water turbines on site. But even if this is a more
>efficient method, I think I still prefer the clanking clattering
>mechanical power transmission system; a bunch of pipes is boring
>without lots of hissing steam and gnomish engineers swarming all over
>it. :)
>
For those who haven't een to see it yet, there's a nice interpretation
of this in "The Time Machine". Not a movie I'd recommend for anything
else though.
Firesong
DataPacRat
Another tidbit from Steampunk:
-----
Power Transmission Systems:
Conversion Transmission Wasted
System Cost Power
Millwork, wood $25/mi 750%/mi (100% loss at 704 feet)
Millwork, steel $60/mi 500%/mi (100% loss at 1056 feet)
Telodynamics $5/mi 50%/mi (100% loss at 2 miles)
Steam Pipes $15/mi 25%/mi (100% loss at 4 miles)
Hydraulics $60 $10/mi 25%/mi (100% loss at 4 miles)
Pneumatics $135 $5/mi 10%/mi (100% loss at 10 miles)
Costs are per kW of peak capacity.
Power lost in transmission = (WastedPower * Distance,miles) *
PowerDelivered
(Multiply costs by 20 to get G:Vehicles dollars)
-----
Unfortunately, they don't make it very clear how the "conversion systems"
are supposed to work - do they go at both ends? What sort of power has to
be fed, or comes out of them? And then they go on to say that "using
transmitted power usually requires some form of motor at the location
where the power is used", giving stats for steam, water, and air turbines.
Leszek Karlik
<bder...@REM0VEgpu.srv.ualberta.ca> disseminated foul capitalist
propaganda:
[...]
> Such a spring would store an enormous (and physically unrealistic)
> amount of power in it.
Well, they could be made out of mithril or some other handwavium. :)
Leslie
--
Leszek 'Leslie' Karlik; ailurophile by trade; SNAFU TANJ TANSTAAFL; /^\ lk
Do you want to join the Ancient Illuminated Seers of Bavaria? / (*) \
Put $ 3,125.00 in a cigar box and bury it in your backyard. / \
One of our *Underground* Agents will contact you shortly. /_____________\
Tapio Erola
> DataPacRat <spam.datap...@warren.kill.com> writes:
>
> > Lighter-then-air craft (hot-air balloons and hydrogen zeppelins) are
> >pretty firmly TL5. As I recall, hydrogen was mostly made available by
> >zapping water with electricity, which is currently verboten; leaving the
> >question of how hard the jump from childrens' floating hollow-eggshell
> >toys to lifting people would be...
>
> You could probably liberate hydrogen from lye (NaOH) (caustic soda)
> and metal. Not sure how effective or efficient it would be, though.
Not from lye, but generating hydrogen from acid and metal is common
enough lab trick. It's economically inefficient by current standards,
but could easily provide hydrogen needed.
--
Tapio Erola (t...@tols17.oulu.fi) No mail to t...@rak061.oulu.fi please!
"I hope I die before I get old"
--The Who, My Generation
Lance Purple
news:3d0998b9....@shawnews.cg.shawcable.net:
> well since they had gunpowder at that stage you could have an engine
> driven by the exploding force of gunpowder. This drives the piston
> and doesn't require anything like the same degree of engineering
> precision as a steam engine. be pretty scenic to watch such a
> contraption from a safe distance.
Christian Huygens reportedly built such an engine in the 1690s,
although it was not practical. Here's stats for a gunpowder engine:
http://www.io.com/~lpurple/GURPS/VEAdd.html
The big problem is the excessive cost of gunpowder at TL4, given
the rate at which this thing would burn it. You'd need an excuse
why gunpowder is cheap enough to burn for fuel at TL4+1.
--
.-----------------------------------------------------------------.
/ Lance Purple lpurple<a>io.com http://purple.home.texas.net /
'-----------------------------------------------------------------'
Patrick Spinler
I don't recall enough industrial history to be certain, but I thought
that the technology (metallurgy) to make good quality springs didn't
become available until the 1700's or late 1600's ?
In other words, springs probably aren't a viable source of power this early.
-- Pat
--
This message does not represent the policies or positions
of the Mayo Foundation or its subsidiaries.
Patrick Spinler email: Spinler...@Mayo.EDU
Mayo Foundation phone: 507/284-9485
Joseph Michael Bay
>jm...@Stanford.EDU (Joseph Michael Bay) writes:
>> You could probably liberate hydrogen from lye (NaOH) (caustic soda)
>> and metal. Not sure how effective or efficient it would be, though.
>Not from lye, but generating hydrogen from acid and metal is common
>enough lab trick. It's economically inefficient by current standards,
>but could easily provide hydrogen needed.
I was thinking of aluminum as the metal, but it turns out that wouldn't
really be available in quantity.
Johan Jakonen
In SteamPunk they build "impossible" machines, powered by steam-engines.
Why not let ClockPunk engineers make "impossible" springs?
That's more or less the idea here...
Johan Jakonen
They also have theorised a quantum-singularity vacuum cleaner.
Very efficient with no dustbag to change.
Aaron Guzman <aaro...@cox-internet.com> skrev i
diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:ugi9rup...@corp.supernews.com...
Bryan Derksen
That's why I compared them to Ultratech power cells when I first
brought them up.
"Yes, it's a matter/energy conversion spring. Turn the shaft to
increase the coil's mass. Be careful not to over-wind." :)
Charleson Mambo
DataPacRat <spam.datap...@warren.kill.com> wrote:
Off the top of my head:
One element of cyberpunk that could be, ahem, geared down to
clockwork is data encryption.
Imaging a small wooden filled with gears and cams (maybe disquised as
something else) that looks a bit like a record player with three
keyholes in front.
Write you plain text on a metal disk covered with a thin layer of wax
using a stylus. Add some acid to etch the message into the disk. Place
disk on the box. Insert three (of a larger number) keys in the right
order, giving each a turn. Crank, crank, crank. A stylus follows your
message (written in a slightly altered cursive, so you can write without
lifting the stylus and breaking the line) as the gears and cams whirl
about. A second stylus inside the machine engraves a complex squigle
around a second metal plate.
Destroy plain text, and send or arrange pick up of the squigle.
To decode the process is reversed by someone who has the right keys
and knows their right order.
As an added bonus, the decoder would output a reasonable facscimile
of the senders penmanship, which would be a further hurdle for forgers
and aid in certifying the sender's identity.
What do you all think?
Charleson Mambo
(somewhat inspire by pre-electronic 'electromechanical computers' used
solve equations by drawing out highly accurate graphs, which tended to
be sortof cicular or curvatious)
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To confuse, inveigle, and obfuscate.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<spam> www.accanthology.com Buy "The Alt.Cyberpunk.Chatsubo Anthology" </spam>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Euel Ball
>
>
> Off the top of my head:
>
> One element of cyberpunk that could be, ahem, geared down to
> clockwork is data encryption.
>
> Imaging a small wooden filled with gears and cams (maybe disquised as
> something else) that looks a bit like a record player with three
> keyholes in front.
>
> <snip>
>
>
> What do you all think?
>
> Charleson Mambo
>
> (somewhat inspire by pre-electronic 'electromechanical computers' used
> solve equations by drawing out highly accurate graphs, which tended to
> be sortof cicular or curvatious)
>
I like it! Mind if I use it?
Euel
Charleson Mambo
Euel Ball <euel...@earthlink.net> wrote:
Help yourself. Just let us know how it works out.
Charleson Mambo
W Brian McDonald
>Brian_M...@shaw.ca (W Brian McDonald) wrote in
>news:3d0998b9....@shawnews.cg.shawcable.net:
>
>> well since they had gunpowder at that stage you could have an engine
>> driven by the exploding force of gunpowder. This drives the piston
>> and doesn't require anything like the same degree of engineering
>> precision as a steam engine. be pretty scenic to watch such a
>> contraption from a safe distance.
>
>Christian Huygens reportedly built such an engine in the 1690s,
>although it was not practical. Here's stats for a gunpowder engine:
>
> http://www.io.com/~lpurple/GURPS/VEAdd.html
>
>The big problem is the excessive cost of gunpowder at TL4, given
>the rate at which this thing would burn it. You'd need an excuse
>why gunpowder is cheap enough to burn for fuel at TL4+1.
>
>
>
large amounts of saltpetre as a byproduct of the newfangled sewage
system perhaps.
Michael W. Ryder
> After reading some of what Steampunk has to say about TL(5+1), I'm
> thinking about what possibilities there are for clockpunk, TL(4+1) (ala
> Leonardo da Vinci's wilder imaginings, or more reliable inventions of
> 'tinker gnomes'). The question seems to come down to, what TL5 advances
> can be made with TL4 technology?
>
> The central TL5 invention seems to me to be the steam engine. TL4 doesn't
> have many choices to build replacements from: waterwheels and windmills
> (which aren't that portable), and, as Vehicles calls it, the "Muscle
> Engine" - which makes me start thinking along the lines of a railroad
> engine powered by oxen on treadmills... Without the precise milling
> necessary for steam-engine cylinders available, what else might work?
>
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is gravity power. Lift a large
weight and then use a clock type escapement to release the power in
controllable increments. The power available would be constant the
entire length of the weight's drop unlike other stored energy methods
such as springs, water reservoirs, compressed air, or hydraulics.
One idea is to use this to recock a ballista creating a semi-automatic
ballista that could be readied for use in minutes. Just attach the
bowstring and load the ammo cartridge. It would then recock itself as
fast as the operator could pull the trigger and a new bolt would drop
into the channel. It could be left ready for use for years without any
degradation with normal maintenance.
heratyk
gun for a post-apocalypse setting. How does the spring propel the bullet in
these models? Is the second one a multi-shot weapon?
- heratyk
Mark K Styles <mkst...@sk.sympatico.caNADA> wrote in message
news:ugiaom3...@corp.supernews.com...
Tetsubo
> Interesting concept, Mark. I was thinking of some kind of spring-powered
> gun for a post-apocalypse setting. How does the spring propel the bullet in
> these models? Is the second one a multi-shot weapon?
>
> - heratyk
While really neat wouldn't a crossbow be simpler in a PA setting? Or you
could use pneumatic guns. Either purpose built or modified paintball guns.
Paintball guns had pressure regulations for how many PSI can be used to propel
the round. But in a PA setting the sky is the limit. Pneumatic guns saw use as
gaming weapons and some limited military use IRL. Some were used doing the
American Civil War and Austria outfitted a unit with them at one point. Just a
thought.
--
Tetsubo
--------------------------------------
"Nothing is as terrible to see as ignorance in action."
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
heratyk
Tetsubo <tet...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3D0C5203...@attbi.com...
> heratyk wrote:
>
> > Interesting concept, Mark. I was thinking of some kind of
spring-powered
> > gun for a post-apocalypse setting. How does the spring propel the
bullet in
> > these models? Is the second one a multi-shot weapon?
> >
> > - heratyk
>
> While really neat wouldn't a crossbow be simpler in a PA setting? Or
you
> could use pneumatic guns. Either purpose built or modified paintball guns.
> Paintball guns had pressure regulations for how many PSI can be used to
propel
> the round. But in a PA setting the sky is the limit. Pneumatic guns saw
use as
> gaming weapons and some limited military use IRL. Some were used doing the
> American Civil War and Austria outfitted a unit with them at one point.
Just a
> thought.
Crossbows are available, too. Spring-guns just seemed to add some variety
and flavor. Pneumatic guns would require a facility for filling up
compressed-gas bottles, which doesn't seem as practical to me. I assumed
industry was destroyed along with civilization, although there is always a
chance of scrounging up some lost piece of high-tech equipment.
In a crossbow, the bow is a spring. I figure it wouldn't be too hard to do
the same thing with a coil or leaf spring, though I don't know if there
would be any advantage or disadvantage to it. It would probably be cocked
in the same mannor as a crossbow. I can't think of a practical way to make
it a multiple-shot weapon besides putting 2 barrel/spring assemblies
together.
On a related topic, I (and my friends who reload ammo) think that without an
industrial base, smokeless powder and primers would be tough to make, so
most available firearms would be black powder, essentially TL 4 or 5. Any
comments?
http://members.cox.net/cyberdungeon/fallout.html
http://www.angelfire.com/wa/cyberdungeon/fallout.html
- heratyk
<forwarded quotes>
Black powder seems like a convenient technology level to fall
back to in case of global apocalypse. Gunpowder of that type can be
made by people without a lot of deep chemisty knowledge, where I think
modern smokeless powders are still nitrocellulose-based. Black powder
burns slower than smokeless, and so it generates less chamber pressure
-- an advantage when you can't bet on gunsmiths being able to build
strong-enough parts.
(Here's a link with instructions on how to make nitrocellulose:
http://www.people.virginia.edu/~mjz2t/nitrocellulose.html )
If your setting is generations after the apocalypse, the state
of firearms technology probably isn't as far advanced as the Old West,
unless you've rebuilt some sort of industrial structure. Assuming the
pre-cataclysm technological level is like today's, you'd probably have
modern weapons and ammunition in use until people ran out of packaged
ammo and reloading supplies. (There is a hardy reloading industry today.)
Once the reloaders run out of powder and primers, things get
interesting. (Lead can be found to cast bullets, which would be less of
a problem than making new powder and primers.) As I mentioned, black
powder can be made with less chemistry knowledge than smokeless, and it
looks like creating primers would also require some real chemistry. (A
link with instructions to make fulminate of mercury:
http://www.totse.com/en/bad_ideas/ka_fucking_boom/mercful1.html )
If we assume that modern powder and primers aren't available,
and we don't have the industrial complex to make percussion caps for the
masses... Well, by this point we don't have too much use for modern
metallic cartridges. I think we might end up with "modern" guns
modified to function as flintlock or matchlock weapons -- we're back to
muzzleloaders. (In the old days, we had modifications going the other
direction -- flintlocks modified to use percussion caps, muzzleloaders
modified to take metallic cartridges, etc.)
One great advantage of "modern" guns being modified to use "old"
blackpowder methods of shooting would be that the modern guns are built
to withstand greater gas pressures than blackpowder would deliver -- the
guns would be stronger than necessary, so they'd probably serve as
blackpowder weapons for a long time, and be forgiving of overcharging
with powder and other such mistakes.
Guns of no-industry post-apocalypse manufacture would probably
be made by individual smiths, and you probably wouldn't get anything
more advanced than 18th century pieces. Still enough firepower to tame
North America and have some nasty wars, if you wish.
All the handy consumables (packaged ammunition and reloading
supplies) are long gone, unless someone stumbles across a long-hidden
stash somewhere... In which case they shouldn't trust that the old
cartridges will work at all. Even if some intrepid soul does manage to
find a round of functional pre-cataclysm ammunition, his gun has
probably been modified over the years to function at a lower technology
level, flintlock or matchlock. If by the most amazing chance the gun
does have a working firing mechanism and the round of old ammo does go
off as originally designed, the modifications may weaken the gun enough
to blow it apart, or at least someone's going to get a nasty surprise as
the flash hole drilled into the chamber releases a high-velocity jet of
hot gas and flame (with a dusting of brass) to the right. :)
<end quotes>
Gregory L. Hansen
heratyk <her...@yahoo.com-nospam> wrote:
>
>Tetsubo <tet...@attbi.com> wrote in message
>news:3D0C5203...@attbi.com...
>> heratyk wrote:
>>
>> > Interesting concept, Mark. I was thinking of some kind of
>spring-powered
>> > gun for a post-apocalypse setting. How does the spring propel the
>bullet in
>> > these models? Is the second one a multi-shot weapon?
>> >
>> > - heratyk
>>
>> While really neat wouldn't a crossbow be simpler in a PA setting? Or
>you
>> could use pneumatic guns. Either purpose built or modified paintball guns.
>> Paintball guns had pressure regulations for how many PSI can be used to
>propel
>> the round. But in a PA setting the sky is the limit. Pneumatic guns saw
>use as
>> gaming weapons and some limited military use IRL. Some were used doing the
>> American Civil War and Austria outfitted a unit with them at one point.
>Just a
>> thought.
>
>Crossbows are available, too. Spring-guns just seemed to add some variety
>and flavor.
With spring guns, you could have a six-shooter. That is, six chambers
with springs compressed and projectiles loaded, ready to be fired.
Reloading might involve something like the lever-operated ramrod on a
black powder revolver, except with a lever long enough that you can
compress a spring capable of dealing deadly force. Maybe a rifle-like gun
with a bayonet-type thing sticking out the front that is the recompressing
mechanism.
>Pneumatic guns would require a facility for filling up
>compressed-gas bottles, which doesn't seem as practical to me. I assumed
If you can make a spring-powered gun, you can make a compressed-air gun.
They'd been around in the 1700's, I think. Again, a built-in lever
operates a pump that compressed air into a chamber. A one-way valve is
easily made from a spring, a plug, and an o-ring (before Buna o-rings they
used waxed leather). The trigger releases a blow-open valve-- one shot,
unless you have a larger reservoir and a secondary reservoir for metering
out charges, or something like that. Still do-able.
And then there's harpoon guns, with multiple rubber bands for driving
force. If rubber trees exist, then rubber bands can exist.
>On a related topic, I (and my friends who reload ammo) think that without an
>industrial base, smokeless powder and primers would be tough to make, so
>most available firearms would be black powder, essentially TL 4 or 5. Any
>comments?
Do a Google search on "smokeless powder" manufacture. According to one
web site you need sulfuric acid, nitric acid, cotton, and baking soda.
All of which have been available to alchemists for a long time.
> If your setting is generations after the apocalypse, the state
>of firearms technology probably isn't as far advanced as the Old West,
>unless you've rebuilt some sort of industrial structure. Assuming the
>pre-cataclysm technological level is like today's, you'd probably have
>modern weapons and ammunition in use until people ran out of packaged
>ammo and reloading supplies. (There is a hardy reloading industry today.)
There are lathes, milling machines, and other machine tools all over the
place. You can't get them all. And a lathe can make all the parts needed
to fix itself, as long as you make them before it breaks. Generators, car
engines, and other sorts of things will be all over the place. And when
you get right down to it, people are smart monkeys. The GM can
realistically make anything available that he wants to be available.
Also, many of the modern things could have been made in ancient times even
if they couldn't have been mass-produced. An alchemist could have whipped
up some smokeless powder in his laboratory (with emphasis on the second
syllable), but he wouldn't have whipped up a plant with hoppers and
reactors and plumbing and things that produce it in lots of several tons.
--
"For every problem there is a solution which is simple, clean and wrong. "
-- Henry Louis Mencken
heratyk
> >compressed-gas bottles, which doesn't seem as practical to me. I assumed
>
> If you can make a spring-powered gun, you can make a compressed-air gun.
> They'd been around in the 1700's, I think. Again, a built-in lever
> operates a pump that compressed air into a chamber. A one-way valve is
> easily made from a spring, a plug, and an o-ring (before Buna o-rings they
> used waxed leather). The trigger releases a blow-open valve-- one shot,
> unless you have a larger reservoir and a secondary reservoir for metering
> out charges, or something like that. Still do-able.
>
> And then there's harpoon guns, with multiple rubber bands for driving
> force. If rubber trees exist, then rubber bands can exist.
Basicly like a pump BB gun, then? That could certainly work. Probably not
as powerful as crossbow or gunpowder, but it wouldn't require special ammo,
either.
> There are lathes, milling machines, and other machine tools all over the
> place. You can't get them all. And a lathe can make all the parts needed
> to fix itself, as long as you make them before it breaks. Generators, car
> engines, and other sorts of things will be all over the place. And when
> you get right down to it, people are smart monkeys. The GM can
> realistically make anything available that he wants to be available.
>
> Also, many of the modern things could have been made in ancient times even
> if they couldn't have been mass-produced. An alchemist could have whipped
> up some smokeless powder in his laboratory (with emphasis on the second
> syllable), but he wouldn't have whipped up a plant with hoppers and
> reactors and plumbing and things that produce it in lots of several tons.
Yep, it's just tricky trying to sort out what is purely knowledge-based (and
could be reproduced fairly easily), and what requires an underlying
industrial or social base. The other hard part is game balance. Thanks for
your insight.
- heratyk
W Brian McDonald
wrote:
>
>Tetsubo <tet...@attbi.com> wrote in message
>news:3D0C5203...@attbi.com...
>> heratyk wrote:
>>
>> > Interesting concept, Mark. I was thinking of some kind of
>spring-powered
>> > gun for a post-apocalypse setting. How does the spring propel the
>bullet in
>> > these models? Is the second one a multi-shot weapon?
>> >
>> > - heratyk
>>
>
The complete instruction for making smokeless powder, mercury
fulminate, nitroglycerin etc are widely available in the children's
section of your local public library in a jules verne novel called
Mysterious Island. They really don't require any knowledge of
chemistry to execute and the ingredients aren't hard to get.
As for guns themselves i expect the holocaust would have to be of the
back to stone tipped spears level to prevent the relatively rapid
rebuilding of an industrial base similar to 1880's through WW1 era
capabilities. There are a lot of little home machine shops in the
world particularly north america and a lot of semi skilled wannabee
machinists to go with them.
"Ineffective, unfocused violence leads to more violence. Limp,
panicky half-measures lead to more violence. However, complete,
fully-thought-through, professional, well-executed violence
never leads to more violence because, you see, afterwards, the
other guys are all dead."
Rupert Boleyn
glha...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory L. Hansen) wrote:
>Do a Google search on "smokeless powder" manufacture. According to one
>web site you need sulfuric acid, nitric acid, cotton, and baking soda.
>All of which have been available to alchemists for a long time.
That sounds like guncotton, an early 'smokeless' powder. While it's
not hard to make, it requires quite good quality control or you get a
result that's dangerously unstable and liable to explode when
subjected to shock, etc.
Tetsubo
> As for guns themselves i expect the holocaust would have to be of the
> back to stone tipped spears level to prevent the relatively rapid
> rebuilding of an industrial base similar to 1880's through WW1 era
> capabilities. There are a lot of little home machine shops in the
> world particularly north america and a lot of semi skilled wannabee
> machinists to go with them.
> "Ineffective, unfocused violence leads to more violence. Limp,
> panicky half-measures lead to more violence. However, complete,
> fully-thought-through, professional, well-executed violence
> never leads to more violence because, you see, afterwards, the
> other guys are all dead."
I have a friend that made fully functioning blackpowder weapons in a shop the
size of your average bathroom. gas powered generators, small mills and lathes and
your in business. Heck, in New England you might be able to harness water power
from some of the old mills.
--
Tetsubo
--------------------------------------
"I desire what is good.
Therefore, everyone who does not agree with me is a traitor."
-- King George III of England