GURPS Supers for4e Lite
Vitruvian
concepts are doable using only the new Lite. These will necessarily
be rather limited, so in some cases I will cheat and get into
possibilities suggested by the iconic characters and the appendix in
Dragons.
The following are only sketches, not full characters or even
templates. I am assuming 500 starting points for four-color concepts
(bricks, flyers, speedsters, etc.), but toning it down to 250 points
for costumed athlete types. Probably no more than 100 points Disads.
I'll start with the concepts that involve taking one or more of the
4 basic attributes to their logical extremes.
1) Superstrong (Brick). With the base 500 pts, the highest one can
go and leave points over for other Attributes, Brawling, etc. is ST
60. This provides a BL of 720 lbs, two-handed lift of ~5700 lbs or
just short of 3 tons. 6d or so thrusting damage, 60 HP. No bonus to
Move or leaping. Hopefully a "Super ST" Advantage of some sort will
be included in Basic, otherwise the Hulk and Thing will cost a *lot*
more than the Human Torch until Powers comes out (since we know that
Innate Attack costs 5 pts per 1d, as opposed to 100 pts per 1d
thrust damage from ST). Logical additional features (requiring
Disads) include higher HT, High Pain Threshold, Hard to Kill, and
some degree of Brawling or Karate (the latter, interestingly enough,
is really useful for this character type, since it adds +1 or +2 per
die). If getting into material beyond Lite, Damage Resistance (DR)
is almost a must at 5pts/level. It may even be worth selling back
some HP (again, while pending a true Super ST Advantage) in order to
afford additional HT and DR. Failing that, consider the Human Tank -
ST 30-60, walks around with medieval replica plate armor and a
ballistic vest as padding, since whether armor weights are revised
or not this will present no encumbrance problems whatsoever.
2) DX Monster. A supers level character that pours most of his or
her points into DX and related skills could be really deadly. Say go
to DX 30 [400 pts] and spend the balance of points on slightly
raised attributes, skills like Acrobatics, Karate, and weapons
skills, and possibly appropriate Advantages such as Catfall, Combat
Reflexes and Perfect Balance.
Actually, with DX 30, every melee skill will have a 'perfect' parry
associated with it, every ranged skill will be accurate at extreme
range, and the character will have at least Move 10 (20 mph) and
Dodge 13 (probably more with Combat Reflexes). Add in hit locations,
and the character gets even deadlier, plugging everybody with eye
shots at range.
An interesting alternative for this type is to tone down the DX a
little, and use the points to raise ST and HT a fair amount to get a
really strong, fast acrobat type. Say DX 24 [280], HT 20 [100], ST
20 [100], and buy Advantages and skills with the points from Disads.
Such a character still gets ridiculous skill levels, but also does a
lot more damage and actually has a Base Speed and Move of 11.
3) Speedster. Lite doesn't really provide a way to make a true
speedster. The closest it comes is the HT monster, since raising HT
is the cheapest way to raise Basic Speed and Move. So, consider the
character with, say DX 12 [40], HT 60 [500], for a Basic Speed and
Move of 18. Besides providing a really nice Dodge [21!], this
character can run around at 36 mph, and with all those Fatigue
Points, do it for an extended period of time.
This also has other interesting effects, of course. Drop a point
into Carousing and see what happens. Such a character can leap (18 x
6) - 10 = 98 inches, or 9 feet straight up from a standing position,
or make a thirty yard running broad jump. HT rolls for injury,
recovery, environmental conditions, or lack of food or rest are
never a problem either.
If we introduce rules from the iconic characters (like buying speed
at 20 pts/level or Basic Move at 5 pts/level) or from Dragons
(Enhanced Move at 20 pts/movement multiple), then of course making
classic speedsters becomes much more doable.
4) The Brain. Raising your IQ to ridiculous levels - say IQ 30 [400
pts] - has similar effects on Mental skills to those observed on
physical and combat skills for the DX Monster. Such characters are
also incredibly perceptive and strong-willed; one could add on
Advantages and skills to emphasize either of these aspects (Acute
Senses, Danger Sense, Night Vision for perception; High Pain
Threshold, Hard to Kill, etc. for will). Brainy characters are also
prime candidates for the Wildcard skills concept, taking skills like
Science! or Spy!.
5) Balanced Brick. One could split the difference between ST and HT,
going perhaps for soemthing like ST 30 [200], HT 30 [200], DX 14
[80]. This gives significant damage potential, Basic Speed and Move
of 11, Dodge of 14 before additional mods. This is about a Captain
America-like level of power; add Combat Reflexes [15], Karate-15
[8], Shield-14 [1] and carry a Medium Shield to be even more iconic
and run around with an effective Dodge of 17!
6) Jack of All Trades. Raise both DX and IQ to max human levels for
a character that can be good at everything (think Mr. Terrific). DX
20 [200 pts], IQ 20 [200 pts], plus additional Attributes and skills
to actually take advantage of the high skill stats.
More later, based on specific Advantages and Skills.
Bruce Grubb
vitr...@globalfrequency.org (Vitruvian) wrote:
> Okay, I've been doing some more noodling, investigating what supers
> concepts are doable using only the new Lite. These will necessarily
> be rather limited, so in some cases I will cheat and get into
> possibilities suggested by the iconic characters and the appendix in
> Dragons.
>
> The following are only sketches, not full characters or even
> templates. I am assuming 500 starting points for four-color concepts
> (bricks, flyers, speedsters, etc.), but toning it down to 250 points
> for costumed athlete types. Probably no more than 100 points Disads.
> I'll start with the concepts that involve taking one or more of the
> 4 basic attributes to their logical extremes.
>
> 1) Superstrong (Brick). With the base 500 pts, the highest one can
> go and leave points over for other Attributes, Brawling, etc. is ST
> 60. This provides a BL of 720 lbs, two-handed lift of ~5700 lbs or
> just short of 3 tons. 6d or so thrusting damage, 60 HP. No bonus to
> Move or leaping. Hopefully a "Super ST" Advantage of some sort will
> be included in Basic, otherwise the Hulk and Thing will cost a *lot*
> more than the Human Torch until Powers comes out (since we know that
> Innate Attack costs 5 pts per 1d, as opposed to 100 pts per 1d
> thrust damage from ST).
Well if they survive unchanged Hyper-Strength advantage and Power Blow
skill. As it is written Power Blow is currently a point bonanza - at skill
20 you can double your strength with a second of concentration and at skill
30 triple it. So the ST 60 Brick with Power Blow can act for short period
as if he had a ST 120 or ST 180. Throw in Hyper-Strength with Reduced
Fatigue Cost and/or Very Fit and things get real fun.
Richard Brown
> Okay, I've been doing some more noodling, investigating what supers
> concepts are doable using only the new Lite. These will necessarily
> be rather limited, so in some cases I will cheat and get into
> possibilities suggested by the iconic characters and the appendix in
> Dragons.
>
> The following are only sketches, not full characters or even
> templates. I am assuming 500 starting points for four-color concepts
> (bricks, flyers, speedsters, etc.), but toning it down to 250 points
> for costumed athlete types. Probably no more than 100 points Disads.
> I'll start with the concepts that involve taking one or more of the
> 4 basic attributes to their logical extremes.
>
> 1) Superstrong (Brick). With the base 500 pts, the highest one can
> go and leave points over for other Attributes, Brawling, etc. is ST
> 60. This provides a BL of 720 lbs, two-handed lift of ~5700 lbs or
> just short of 3 tons. 6d or so thrusting damage, 60 HP. No bonus to
> Move or leaping. Hopefully a "Super ST" Advantage of some sort will
> be included in Basic, otherwise the Hulk and Thing will cost a *lot*
> more than the Human Torch
I'm not entirely sure that's a bad thing. After all the power
levels on comic book teams don't exactly balance out like characters
built on the same number of points would.
To me the bigger problem is that ST high enough for characters like
the Hulk and Thing cost what some players consider unweildy amount of
points. The Hulks ST would start at 345 costing 3450 points and the
Thing would require 317 costing 3170 points. Add in DR and other
abilities and your in the 4000+ point range. Personaly those kind of
point totals don't bother me, but I have read posts by some who site
them as reasons why Gurps can't do supers. Although it's an
improvement over the points that used to be required to do the same
thing.
> until Powers comes out (since we know that
> Innate Attack costs 5 pts per 1d, as opposed to 100 pts per 1d
> thrust damage from ST). Logical additional features (requiring
> Disads) include higher HT, High Pain Threshold, Hard to Kill, and
> some degree of Brawling or Karate (the latter, interestingly enough,
> is really useful for this character type, since it adds +1 or +2 per
> die). If getting into material beyond Lite, Damage Resistance (DR)
> is almost a must at 5pts/level. It may even be worth selling back
> some HP (again, while pending a true Super ST Advantage) in order to
> afford additional HT and DR. Failing that, consider the Human Tank -
> ST 30-60, walks around with medieval replica plate armor and a
> ballistic vest as padding, since whether armor weights are revised
> or not this will present no encumbrance problems whatsoever.
>
Of course even with no armor or DR having HP=ST means a strong brick
can still take a lot of punishment.
Nice work from just Lite. I can't wait to see what else you come up
with.
Vitruvian
> > go and leave points over for other Attributes, Brawling, etc. is ST
> > 60. This provides a BL of 720 lbs, two-handed lift of ~5700 lbs or
> > just short of 3 tons. 6d or so thrusting damage, 60 HP. No bonus to
> > Move or leaping. Hopefully a "Super ST" Advantage of some sort will
> > be included in Basic, otherwise the Hulk and Thing will cost a *lot*
> > more than the Human Torch
>
> I'm not entirely sure that's a bad thing. After all the power
> levels on comic book teams don't exactly balance out like characters
> built on the same number of points would.
> To me the bigger problem is that ST high enough for characters like
> the Hulk and Thing cost what some players consider unweildy amount of
> points. The Hulks ST would start at 345 costing 3450 points and the
> Thing would require 317 costing 3170 points. Add in DR and other
> abilities and your in the 4000+ point range. Personaly those kind of
> point totals don't bother me, but I have read posts by some who site
> them as reasons why Gurps can't do supers. Although it's an
> improvement over the points that used to be required to do the same
> thing.
>
Except I can't think of any reason for the system *not* to balance
bricks and blasters against each other. Even if you subtract the HP,
it's still ~80 pts per 1d of thrusting ST damage, vs something around
5 pts per 1d of generic blasting damage. Sure, the ST lets you lift
and carry better, but I'm not sure that's worth the extra 75 points...
Myrnag2555
>Except I can't think of any reason for the system *not* to balance
>bricks and blasters against each other. Even if you subtract the HP,
>it's still ~80 pts per 1d of thrusting ST damage
Why not swing instead?
Vitruvian
Sure, you can, if a weapon is handy. I'm using thrust damage as my
basis of comparison simply because the punch is the typical superhero
attack.
In any case, if they follow anything like the damage progression from
3e (which they may not), then after a certain point swing only does 1d
more damage.
Vitruvian
Okay, it's later now.
Moving on to Advantages, here are some more possible Supers concepts
from 4e Lite:
1) Supermodel - take Very Handsome/Very Beautiful [16 pts], plus at
least 4 levels of Charisma [20]. This makes sure that you never get
worse than a Good reaction from the opposite sex, and are even pretty
well liked by the same sex (unless they get jealous. Possibly add
Voice for some extra umph when you speak. For pure gratuitousness, say
you're actually famous, and add levels of Reputation and/or Status.
Smooth Operator Talent is probably redundant.
Vitruvian
More as promised... first, with Advantages.
1) Supermodel - take Very Handsome/Very Beautiful [16 pts], plus at
least 4 levels of Charisma ][20], thus assuring yourself of at least a
Good reaction from the opposite sex. You can gild the lily with Voice,
Reputation, and Status. Smooth Operator Talent is totally optional.
Round out with a reasonably high HT (attractive people tend to be
healthy) and skills including Carousing and Influence skills,
particularly Sex Appeal. You can raise the Charisma further for truly
superhuman persuasive abilities.
2) High-Tech - In the absence of rules for access to higher TL
equipment, it may still be worth building a character on the concept
of being 4 TLs ahead of the game [20 pts].
3) Rich Man - Take Filthy Rich [50 pts] and buy lots of equipment. Of
course, this still probably doesn't cover buying a Lear jet for the
team. Combine with #2 to actually be able to finance rebuilding some
of your higher tech...
4) It's Good to be the King - Sink your points into Status 8 [40 pts]
5) Acute Senses - One, or a mix of these. These are pretty
self-explanatory, but note that it doesn't take many points to
literally have eagle eyes or hear like a cat. Maybe a tetrachromatic
woman could be the first member of 'the realistic X-Men'?
6) Ambidexterity - could come in handy with two-weapon fighting
techniques, but not really the basis of a full superhero. Once you
add in Extra Attack and Compartmentalized Mind, you can create
Bicameral Man, with a complete mind in each hemisphere of his brain
due to an incision of his corpus callosum.
7) Animal Empathy - mix with the right Animal and Influence skills,
plus maybe some Charisma mainly aimed at animals, and you can create a
regular Mr. Menagerie. Of course, some animal stats would help...
8) Catfall - this could be taken by any number of acrobatic hero
types. Of course, it also raises the idea of a feline-themed
character - maybe Animal Empathy [5], Acute Senses (hearing and
smell/tast) +4 [16], Catfall [10], Combat Reflexes [15], Flexibility
[5], Hard to Kill (nine lives, right?) +4 [8], Extraordinary Luck
[30], Night Vision +9 [9], Perfect Balance [15], a high DX, and
appropriate skills like Acrobatics, Climbing, and Stealth. Hey, add
in the Supermodel package and call the character Catwalk...
6) Danger Sense [15] is a good buy, particularly for a high IQ
character. In fact, combine this with IQ 16 [120] and Empathy [15],
and you have a budding psychic whose hunches are almost always right.
7) Flexibility [5] - this is almost a must for any hero that's going
to be climbing around on rooftops. Double-Jointed is almost superhuman
in itself.
8) Hard to Kill {2/lvl}, bought up to sufficient levels, can give a
character the appearance of, well, unkillability. Good for bricks,
etc.
9) High Pain Threshold [10] could represent you just being really
tough, having a Zen mastery of your body, or actually having nerves
cut like Darkman.
10) Jumper [100] is in fact a definite superpower, but its
applications to crimefighting, except as a quick escape, are hard to
see.
11) Luck, at some level, should probably be a part of any superhero
package... Extraordinary or Ridiculous Luck can represent deliberate
manipulation of probabilities.
12) Night Vision can be very useful for many super themes - cats,
owls, bats, etc.
13) Perfect Balance [15] is almost essential for rooftop acrobats that
don't want to have short careers.
Now, for some Skills. I'll only mention those which give rise to
specific character concepts, not all those useful to superheroes:
1) Acting and Disguise go well together for an infiltrator.
2) Escape goes well towards the concept of a magician or illusionist.
3) Jumping is useful for acrobats. For an entirely ridiculous
character, spend 505 points for Jumping-136, providing you with an
effective Move for leaping purposes of 68, thus allowing you to jump
30 ft straight up or over 130 ft across without needing a running
start.
4) Karate can be very useful. A DX 10 character need only spend 84
points to have Karate-30, providing +2 damage per die and a perfect
parry (18- even without other modifiers). Of course, such a concept
would be better served with a better DX, Combat Reflexes, Enhanced
Defenses, and perhaps a number of acrobatic advantages. Reintroduce
hit locations, and such a character becomes even more effective. Boot
to the head, indeed.
5) Melee Weapons - there are any number of superheroes themed around a
special weapon. Given the varying effectiveness of weapons in Lite, a
good concept would be a quarterstaff-based hero. The basic skill only
needs to get up to 22 in order to provide this character a 'perfect'
parry, and he/she could take Jumping for pole-vault stunts, etc. as
well. Characters based around various other archaic and martial arts
weapons are possible as well. Fencing might be a popular choice.
6) Missile Weapons - characters based around these are if anything
even more common. None requires more than 80-odd points for a truly
ridiculously high skill level, taking care of pretty much all
penalties likely to show up.
7) Shields are a staple of comic book characters, although you're
better off dodging rather than directly blocking firearms.
8) Stealth - since there don't seem to be any effective skill limits
for Quick Contests, take this skill at a ridiculously high level to be
effectively invisible.
Next time, looking at some of the options shown in the iconic
characters and Dragons....
Korin Duval
wrote:
[...]
> To me the bigger problem is that ST high enough for characters like
>the Hulk and Thing cost what some players consider unweildy amount of
>points. The Hulks ST would start at 345 costing 3450 points and the
>Thing would require 317 costing 3170 points. Add in DR and other
>abilities and your in the 4000+ point range.
Are you sure you should really figure their STR level by using the
maximum EFFORTLESS lift value?
Shouldn't you use the "extra effort" value?
I mean, under 3rd Ed, lots of STR means lots of Fatigue, and spending
1 Fatigue out of 50, 80 or 100 doesn't mean "he's tired".
Korin Duval
--
"Truth requires a great amount of courage;
Fiction requires a great amount of maturity."
Vitruvian
> On 16 Jul 2004 17:06:49 -0700, rbr...@myriad.com (Richard Brown)
> wrote:
>
> [...]
> > To me the bigger problem is that ST high enough for characters like
> >the Hulk and Thing cost what some players consider unweildy amount of
> >points. The Hulks ST would start at 345 costing 3450 points and the
> >Thing would require 317 costing 3170 points. Add in DR and other
> >abilities and your in the 4000+ point range.
>
> Are you sure you should really figure their STR level by using the
> maximum EFFORTLESS lift value?
>
> Shouldn't you use the "extra effort" value?
> I mean, under 3rd Ed, lots of STR means lots of Fatigue, and spending
> 1 Fatigue out of 50, 80 or 100 doesn't mean "he's tired".
>
> Korin Duval
The old 'extra effort' table is already incorporated into strength in
4e, since ST is now specifically quadratic - lifting ability is
figured according to the square of ST. Everybody gets a Basic Lift
(BL) of ST times ST over 5; this represents your No Encumbrance level
and how much you can easily lift in one hand in one second. Max
two-handed lift (unsure if dead lift or press) is 8 times BL. So, ST
300 gives a BL of 90,000/5 = 18,000 lbs, and max lift of about 72
tons. Unfortunately, ST 300, absent any special 'Super ST' Advantage,
costs 290 x 10 = 2900 character points on creation.
Richard Brown
I was refering more to the fact that comic book teams tend to have
characters of widely varying power levels therfore there's no point in
asuming that they would balance in point value when converted to a
game. Even if you did balance Blasters VS Bricks it's still unlikely
that The Human Torch and The Thing would come out at the same point
total.
As for how Gurps does it's balancing, I can think of 4 things ST
does, Lifting, HP, Throwing capacity and damage. So for strait
balance with no other considerations I'd expect a blaster power to
cost 25% of ST cost per die of damage with modifications for range.
However, I'd probably base it on Swing damage, because although a
punch is a comon atack by a brick so too are swung weapons like Thor's
hammer, Herculese mace, uprooted trees/lamp posts and cars used as
clubs, also Swung damage is the highest damage for any weapon that
increases reach and blaster atacks are a means to hit targets at
range. So IIRC (I can't acess Gurps Lite from work but can post here
on break) swing is aproximately 5 levels or 50 points per die leaving
a balanced blaster ability at 12.5 pts per die. The fact that the
designers have put it at only 5 points per die may have several
reasons: 1) They didn't realy try to point balance it against ST they
just went with something that looked good. 2) They considered damage
a less important aspect of striength and weighted the cost acordingly.
3) They were considering other uses for ST that didn't get mentioned
in Gurps Lite and are escaping me at the moment. 4)Ranged atacks
can't hit targets as far away as you could throw for similar damage
spending the points on ST so they reduced cost of ranged atack powers
acordingly. What is the range per power level after all?
Richard Brown
There is also the little fact that Lite didn't seem to incorperate any
rules for using extra effort. Also now with Fatuige = HT and HP = ST
there's no reason to assume a brick would have superhuman levels of
fatigue at all.
Bruce Grubb
korinNOd...@yahoo.it (Korin Duval) wrote:
> On 16 Jul 2004 17:06:49 -0700, rbr...@myriad.com (Richard Brown)
> wrote:
>
> [...]
> > To me the bigger problem is that ST high enough for characters like
> >the Hulk and Thing cost what some players consider unweildy amount of
> >points. The Hulks ST would start at 345 costing 3450 points and the
> >Thing would require 317 costing 3170 points. Add in DR and other
> >abilities and your in the 4000+ point range.
>
> Are you sure you should really figure their STR level by using the
> maximum EFFORTLESS lift value?
>
> Shouldn't you use the "extra effort" value?
In 3rd edition this is a quadratic equation:
2.5(ST^2) - 15(ST) - Total lifting weight = 0
If a character has the Extra Encumbeance advantage the formula above
changes to:
3.5(ST^2) - 21(ST) - Total lifting weight = 0
> I mean, under 3rd Ed, lots of STR means lots of Fatigue, and spending
> 1 Fatigue out of 50, 80 or 100 doesn't mean "he's tired".
I should mention that Fit and Very Fit effectively double the amount
fatigue a 3rd character can use. Here is responce I posted on the strength
of the silver age Superman back in 1998 that highlights the problems
<http://tinyurl.com/67a72>:
But what does 'Superman is 2^24 times as strong as a normal 10 ST human'
really mean? Between the Lifting skill and Extra Effort Rule the -lifting
ability- of GURPS characters baced on ST is NOT linear but is quardratic:
2.5*ST^2 - 15*ST - Extra Effort lift = 0
If we assume that 'Superman is 2^24 times as strong as a normal 10 ST
human' refers to his lifting ability (which is how Kromm suggests we
handle convertions of this type) than Superman lifts [10 (2^24) * 30] lbs
or 503,316,480 lbs.
Plugging this number back into Extra Effort lift's quadratic equation we
get and effective ST of 14,191; far lower than the 16,777,217 you came up
with.
Throw in the Lifting skill at ST level (4 pt) and Superman's -accual- ST
drops to 12,901. I would hardly call a difference of ~1182 times before
applying the Lifting Skill as "slight change in figures". After the
Lifting skill is used the difference increaces to 1300 times.
And we have not even touched on the point total difference between these
Strength totals. The Extra Effort rule alone reduces Superman's ST pt
cost by 8,381,513 pts (!) and the Lifting skill reduces the cost by another
645 pts. Hardly slight changes in figures.
Wayne Shaw
wrote:
>I was refering more to the fact that comic book teams tend to have
>characters of widely varying power levels therfore there's no point in
>asuming that they would balance in point value when converted to a
>game. Even if you did balance Blasters VS Bricks it's still unlikely
>that The Human Torch and The Thing would come out at the same point
>total.
Comics are full of tropes that generally work poorly in games. That's
one of them (and yes, I know it works for some people; that doesn't
change my opinion in general).
Rupert Boleyn
> So IIRC (I can't acess Gurps Lite from work but can post here
> on break) swing is aproximately 5 levels or 50 points per die leaving
> a balanced blaster ability at 12.5 pts per die.
Actually it's 4 levels per die of swing damage, or 40 points. Thrust
is double that.
--
Rupert Boleyn <rbo...@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
Korin Duval
wrote:
[...]
>There is also the little fact that Lite didn't seem to incorperate any
>rules for using extra effort.
That was the point in my first intervention.
I suppose Basic Set 4th Ed. will have "Extra effort" rules.
I mean, heroes who cannot squeeze out their maximum while sweating and
grinning... Well, they wouldn't be heroes to love! ^__________^;
>Also now with Fatuige = HT and HP = ST
>there's no reason to assume a brick would have superhuman levels of
>fatigue at all.
Yes, of course.
Richard Brown
> On 19 Jul 2004 12:05:12 -0700, rbr...@myriad.com (Richard Brown)
> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
> > So IIRC (I can't acess Gurps Lite from work but can post here
> > on break) swing is aproximately 5 levels or 50 points per die leaving
> > a balanced blaster ability at 12.5 pts per die.
>
> Actually it's 4 levels per die of swing damage, or 40 points. Thrust
> is double that.
Working out to 10 points per die of damage for swing if you asume
ability to do damage is worth 25% of the value of ST. Pluss you have
all the reasons I mentioned above that the game designers might have
chosen to further reduce the point value and a couple of other points
that occured to me over night. 1) you can already do some damage,
even at range with thrown objects for zero points with ST. 2) Skills
Like Brawling and Throwing are IIRC easy skills and even if you don't
have them you can hit someone on a simple DX roll but in 3rd ed atack
powers were very hard skills (are they still or did this change?)
making atacks with powers harder to improve. 3) damage from ST can be
improved and even changed in type (crushing to cutting for instance)
by using a weapon, but an atack power is stuck with crushing damage
unless you spend extra points for an enhancement. So perhaps they
have balanced atack powers with ST and they just consider the power to
have a boat load of limitaions compared to ST.