Bad cover art in GURPS 4th edition
George Orwell
Sébastien Allard:
"My one big problem is the covers. I hope those we can
see on the web site are just sketch and not the final
art because.... they feel wrong."
GodlessRose:
"the art shown on the website still looks a little cheesy"
Kent Allard:
"the artwork looks like its taken a step back toward 'fan art'.
That new logo looks so 'first edition'."
and many more...
I'm very happy with the 4th edition lauch, I'm looking
forward to see some sneak preview and the like. But...
Cover Art looks terrible! They are not really
ugly but feel outdated and childish.
We know that Steve Jackson Game reads the newsgroup, and
has always appreciated fan-base support and feedback.
So, please, post here, use this thread to show
your feelings about the covers displayed on the website.
GM screen, Magic and Fantasy covers are even worse.
Something along the lines of Vikings 2nd or Dragons
would be GREAT! A more seroiuos layout, such as HERO
System is first class too.
my 2 cents
George
nunya311
I hate criticizing others art when its better than what I could do. But I
can certainly say its not what I imagine for GURPS.
James Duncan
"George Orwell" <nob...@mixmaster.it> wrote in message
news:ab6a275623ac9c39...@mixmaster.it...
> I hope the covers on the website aren't definitive.
>
> Sébastien Allard:
>
> "My one big problem is the covers. I hope those we can
> see on the web site are just sketch and not the final
> art because.... they feel wrong."
>
> GodlessRose:
>
> "the art shown on the website still looks a little cheesy"
Agreed, the cover art for GURPS 4th edition is horrible. John Zeleznik has
done much better work. I'm surprised he turned in a cover that looks that
bad. It definitely looks more in line with the first edition or second
edition art. Very 1980's feel to the art work.
> Kent Allard:
>
> "the artwork looks like its taken a step back toward 'fan art'.
> That new logo looks so 'first edition'."
>
> and many more...
>
> I'm very happy with the 4th edition lauch, I'm looking
> forward to see some sneak preview and the like. But...
Yeah, I'm definitely looking forward to fourth edition and I really hope
they go with the changes that came out during the early discussions in the
GURPS 4th edtion newsgroup on Pyramid. I haven't been a Pyramid subscriber
in a while so I don't even know if the newsgroup is still there.
> We know that Steve Jackson Game reads the newsgroup, and
> has always appreciated fan-base support and feedback.
> So, please, post here, use this thread to show
> your feelings about the covers displayed on the website.
I'd love to see the cover art changed but it may be too late as these things
need long lead times.
> http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/
>
> GM screen, Magic and Fantasy covers are even worse.
I disagree. I like the Fantasy cover. The color choices are bad but the
art work looks pretty good. The cover art for Magic is also pretty good,
though the perspective is a bit off and it's rather dark.
> Something along the lines of Vikings 2nd or Dragons
> would be GREAT! A more seroiuos layout, such as HERO
> System is first class too.
Did they give an example of the layout?
BTW, for a Deluxe GM's screen, I wish they'd partner with Citizen Games and
produce a set of inserts for the GM Quad Screen and sell it as a bundled
package. Also they really shouldn't do a deluxe edition of the two main
books until at least the second printing. There is almost always too much
errata in the first printing.
> George
>
Taneli Pirinen
> BTW, for a Deluxe GM's screen, I wish they'd partner with Citizen Games and
> produce a set of inserts for the GM Quad Screen and sell it as a bundled
> package. Also they really shouldn't do a deluxe edition of the two main
> books until at least the second printing. There is almost always too much
> errata in the first printing.
For once I hope that this would not be true. They have had plenty of
time to note most stupid mistakes in the rules and they do have plenty
of time to make sure there're no typos or anything. Make it something
special, like GURPS Religion all over again (that's one book with no
errata of any kind and it's still in one piece, though I bought my copy
used three years ago and have read it trough like many, many times.).
- Taneli -
Mylon
>
> Sébastien Allard:
>
> "My one big problem is the covers. I hope those we can
> see on the web site are just sketch and not the final
> art because.... they feel wrong."
>
> GodlessRose:
>
> "the art shown on the website still looks a little cheesy"
>
> Kent Allard:
>
> "the artwork looks like its taken a step back toward 'fan art'.
> That new logo looks so 'first edition'."
I agree. The artwork does look rather poor, especially compared to
something like GURPS Dragons. Too retro looking, and poor color choices in
most cases.
I am curious as to how the mechanics will be changing in GURPS, though. One
thing that bothered me about GURPS is how skills work. If you pump up your
dex to 14 (cost: 45 points) and drop 4 points into a PA skill, you have a
skill of 15, which is >90% success rate, not counting penalties. Since
stats are so valuable in GURPS, I houseruled that stats cost double during
character creation, just like how they cost before character creation. I
see the wisdom of my actions when I look at my other friend's campaign. One
of the characters has a 16 dex character with a +4 dex ring and some 16 or
so points spent in gunnery, in addition to a bless spell. The character has
a 20+ skill before accounting for all of the magical and computer assist
bonuses. Furthermore, any physical skill he drops one point into starts out
pretty high.
Then there's the concept of skills defaulting to others, which encourages
pumping up the skill providing the default rather than pumping up the "free"
skill by itself. As a counter to this, I houserulled that a skill that
defaults at -2 provides 2/3rds of its points as "free points" to the other
skill (thus, the difference can be more than 2), a -3 penalty translates to
1/2 points, and a -4 penalty translates to 1/3 points. This is more
bookkeeping, but it encourages actually diversifying points. Shortsword and
Broadsword defautl to each other at -2, therefore if you put 12 points into
each, you really get 20 points in both skills.
James and Andrea Gustafson
"James Duncan" <j.du...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:y1T5c.58821$rW6....@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
>
> "George Orwell" <nob...@mixmaster.it> wrote in message
> news:ab6a275623ac9c39...@mixmaster.it...
> > I hope the covers on the website aren't definitive.
> >
> > Sébastien Allard:
> >
> > "My one big problem is the covers. I hope those we can
> > see on the web site are just sketch and not the final
> > art because.... they feel wrong."
> >
> > GodlessRose:
> >
> > "the art shown on the website still looks a little cheesy"
>
> Agreed, the cover art for GURPS 4th edition is horrible. John Zeleznik
has
> done much better work. I'm surprised he turned in a cover that looks that
> bad. It definitely looks more in line with the first edition or second
> edition art. Very 1980's feel to the art work.
I have to wonder how much of the negative reaction to the cover art is
simply "this isn't what I expected (or wanted.)" After all, it's not that
the cover art is "horrible." My renditions of those covers would be
horrible. It definitely is very retro in it's feel though. I'm thinking
Devo's Star Wars album cover. Or the covers of early DnD modules. Not
exactly what you'd expect on a book published 20+ years later.
That being said, you do have to wonder exactly who those covers are aiming
to attract. I don't remember which, but there is a D20 publisher out there
marketing "classic dungeon crawls" complete with new "authentic retro art."
Perhaps Mr. Jackson is looking to win over the disenfranchised DnD players
who feel thier game has been marketed to children. Or perhaps he's looking
to win over the stable core of the market, those who have been playing since
the 80's (and earlier.) A group who may have tried GURPS at one point, but
switched to some other system since, and may be willing to try it again.
> I'd love to see the cover art changed but it may be too late as these
things
> need long lead times.
That and the fact that obviously _someone_ wanted the covers to look this
way. Those four books (4E 1 & 2, Fantasy, and Magic) are going to be some
of the highest selling, if not the highest selling books in the GURPS line.
Illustrations definitely go a long way to establishing the "feel" of a game.
James.
The Other Ted
"James and Andrea Gustafson" <jeg...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:24Z5c.44420$aT1....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "James Duncan" <j.du...@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:y1T5c.58821$rW6....@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
[snip]
> I have to wonder how much of the negative reaction to the cover art is
> simply "this isn't what I expected (or wanted.)" After all, it's not that
> the cover art is "horrible." My renditions of those covers would be
> horrible.
Nah, I'd say the cover art is "horrible." My renditions would qualify as
"REALLY horrible." I've almost always been impressed by the cover art on
GURPS books since 1st ed. Cyberpunk, whether original or not, and IMHO the
3rd ed. cover really shines. This newest stuff is what I might expect from
a first-year art student, or from an artist with a serious deadline.
Also, the cover art and illustrations are a deciding factor for me in this
case. I've already got 3rd ed. Basic and both the Compendia - what reason
do I have to get the 4th ed. books, except to stay "hip-n-trendy?" And how
could you be HnT with unnaturally shiny-skinned people in Freudian poses?
(And how many female Elven archers or futuristic warriors wear heaping gobs
of mascara and lipstick, anyway?)
(BTW, if there are significant mechanical differences in the 4th ed.,
someone please fill us in. With specifics!)
[snip]
> That being said, you do have to wonder exactly who those covers are aiming
> to attract. I don't remember which, but there is a D20 publisher out
there
> marketing "classic dungeon crawls" complete with new "authentic retro
art."
> Perhaps Mr. Jackson is looking to win over the disenfranchised DnD players
> who feel thier game has been marketed to children. Or perhaps he's
looking
> to win over the stable core of the market, those who have been playing
since
> the 80's (and earlier.) A group who may have tried GURPS at one point,
but
> switched to some other system since, and may be willing to try it again.
That 2nd group would include me, and I stopped being impressed by fanboy art
even before I got into RPGs.
> That and the fact that obviously _someone_ wanted the covers to look this
> way.
Kinda like someone has to order muzak for dentists' offices and voice
directories :)
[snip and relurk]
Ted
Sam Spade
news:HJY5c.272905$jH.35...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
Having only the default skill level in Art, I hestitate to cast stones
(which is why I watched this thread for a day before jumping on). However, I
concur with the others who post here. It's not horrible, but it is not what
I would have expected. The cover art definitely feels dated. In fact, it
reminds me of the first edition covers. These books will be the core works
of the newly revised system, so they should really shine in all respects,
including the cover art. I would be disappointed with the cover art as it
stands (though I would still buy them).
Phil Masters
wrote:
> ... One
>of the characters has a 16 dex character with a +4 dex ring and some 16 or
>so points spent in gunnery, in addition to a bless spell. The character has
>a 20+ skill before accounting for all of the magical and computer assist
>bonuses.
Hmm. And what do we deduce about the nature of that game, I wonder?
Sounds to me like the player is just responding to the environment.
--
Phil Masters http://www.philm.demon.co.uk
Consternation: RPG Convention, Cambridge, 2005:
http://www.consternation.org.uk/
Kent Allard
wrote:
> Having only the default skill level in Art, I hestitate to cast stones
Artists don't buy art. Folks who appreciate art (or think they do) buy art.
doug nelson
I emailed Andrew Hackard directly - his email/link was on the news
site talking about this. I was so excited about the edition that I
didn't look until five of my fellow GURPS fans were talking on email
about how pathetic the covers were. So I looked. And I agree. Okay,
Harry Potter-esqe looking mages shooting lightning into their gun are
just plain sad. I'm a sad panda. SJGames - you have a chance to wow
people from cover to content - don't blow it. Yeah the rules should be
more important, but a piece of Wayne Reynolds art gets "oohs" "aahs"
and "holy crap - RUN" from my players all the time.
Mylon
news:3c1h5051msacl1a54...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 13:51:35 GMT, "Mylon" <som...@somewhere.com>
> wrote:
> > ... One
> >of the characters has a 16 dex character with a +4 dex ring and some 16
or
> >so points spent in gunnery, in addition to a bless spell. The character
has
> >a 20+ skill before accounting for all of the magical and computer assist
> >bonuses.
>
> Hmm. And what do we deduce about the nature of that game, I wonder?
>
> Sounds to me like the player is just responding to the environment.
Not really. He just wants to make sure he never misses (at least, any any
roll buy a 17 or 18). Then again, Spaceship combat does have this little
problem where if our ship gets blown up, it becomes a TPK. At least in
on-foot combat, if a PK happens, it's not necessarily a TPK.
I do think the GM is being a bit generous in things, but that's another
matter. There's still the fact that this player is very skilled in any
physical skill he puts a single point in. Since stats affect so many
things, I think it's justifiable to increase their cost. IQ and DX are the
basis for almost all skills, IQ also affecting senses and will, ST is pretty
much the least useful stat, affectly only HP (using the optional rule) since
ST seems so unimportant in later TLs, HT affects consciousness rolls, death
rolls, disease, and important resistance rolls for magic. A side effect of
this ruling is there is no longer a need to dump initial character points
into stats, since they don't suddenly go up in price after character
creation.
Kommisar
Hi-
I looked at all the covers and I'd say I like the style. It attemps
to be realistic with nice solid lines but it has a nod to miniature
figures with the bold shading. This is a good thing and expresses the
"this is GURPS which is reality-based role playing game" quite nicely.
The only problem with the figures on the 2 basic books is that they
drawn from an awkward angle - not quite profile - but slightly turned
toward the viewer. This angle makes us see that these are drawings
and not photographs because they don't quite look anatomically
correct. Compare the woman with the RPG to the guy with blunder buss
on GM Screen. The complete side profile looks really cool but the
slightly turned girl looks just a bit off. Notice to that the face-on
figures look cool too - the elven archer on the fantasy book and the
woman on the lower right of the GM screen.
IMHO it is really difficult to draw figures at non-orthatgonal angles
and make them look good.
mcv
: The first two look kinda like the Paranoia art from the 80's?
:
: I hate criticizing others art when its better than what I could do. But I
: can certainly say its not what I imagine for GURPS.
I agree. I'd love to see covers more in the style of Dragons or similar
books. To be quite honest, I think the cover for Volume One isn't even
that terrible (although I'm not exactly wildly enthousiastic about it),
but Volume Two is terrible. Fantasy too. Not too happy with the GM
screen either. Magic looks good, except for the fact that they
pasted the photo of a buy at the office into it. Well, that's what
it looks like, anyway.
In the Daily Illuminator, they say: "we won't accept any art that's
not gorgeous." Well, you just did. Please reconsider the art. And the
logo. GURPS isn't exactly a flattering name for a game, but I'm sure
you can at least depict it a bit better than this.
All that said, yes, ofcourse I will buy these books. I'm one of the
people who has been clamouring for a fourth edition, and I'd buy it
if it was printed on toilet paper. The big question is, will this
attract new gamers? Now that D20 is claiming to be _the_ generic and
universal RP system, GURPS really needs to show the world that it
has more genericity and universalness in its little toe than D20
has in a whole shelf of books.
mcv.
heratyk
> to be realistic with nice solid lines but it has a nod to miniature
> figures with the bold shading. This is a good thing and expresses the
> "this is GURPS which is reality-based role playing game" quite nicely.
> The only problem with the figures on the 2 basic books is that they
> drawn from an awkward angle - not quite profile - but slightly turned
> toward the viewer. This angle makes us see that these are drawings
> and not photographs because they don't quite look anatomically
> correct. Compare the woman with the RPG to the guy with blunder buss
> on GM Screen. The complete side profile looks really cool but the
> slightly turned girl looks just a bit off. Notice to that the face-on
> figures look cool too - the elven archer on the fantasy book and the
> woman on the lower right of the GM screen.
It's not just that, IMHO. I would like to see a scene with a beautiful
background, and some sort of action between 2 or more figures. To show the
flexible nature of GURPS, it should also feature elements of at least 2 or 3
genres.
The cover is the first thing people notice about a book, and is quite often
the deciding factor in whether or not they give it a second look. Putting
really attractive and attention-getting art on the cover is a significant
marketing issue. Those of us who are already fans are likely to get it
anyway, but how will it attract new players?
--
heratyk
http://members.cox.net/cyberdungeon/index.html
give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day.
Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm the rest of his life.
Bill Seurer
> The cover is the first thing people notice about a book, and is quite often
> the deciding factor in whether or not they give it a second look. Putting
> really attractive and attention-getting art on the cover is a significant
> marketing issue. Those of us who are already fans are likely to get it
> anyway, but how will it attract new players?
Or just something simple and elegant like the D&D 3E covers.
But whatever else they do PLEASE don't do any funky formatting inside
like the d20 Call of Cthulu books. Bleah!
Phil Masters
wrote:
>> Hmm. And what do we deduce about the nature of that game, I wonder?
>>
>> Sounds to me like the player is just responding to the environment.
>
>Not really. He just wants to make sure he never misses (at least, any any
>roll buy a 17 or 18).
You're missing my point. I observe that this game has:
- "+4 dex rings" (presumably magic, but who knows?)
- Bless spells.
- Magical assistance to gunnery skills.
- Computer assistance to gunnery skills.
All of them accessible to the same character. Who is apparently
routinely involved in space combat.
This is clearly goofy cinematic cross-genre stuff. Anyone who expects
anything other than goofy cinematic characters in that context is
fooling themselves.
Mylon
> On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 22:43:32 GMT, "Mylon" <som...@somewhere.com>
> wrote:
> >> Hmm. And what do we deduce about the nature of that game, I wonder?
> >>
> >> Sounds to me like the player is just responding to the environment.
> >
> >Not really. He just wants to make sure he never misses (at least, any
any
> >roll buy a 17 or 18).
>
> You're missing my point. I observe that this game has:
>
> - "+4 dex rings" (presumably magic, but who knows?)
> - Bless spells.
> - Magical assistance to gunnery skills.
> - Computer assistance to gunnery skills.
>
> All of them accessible to the same character. Who is apparently
> routinely involved in space combat.
>
> This is clearly goofy cinematic cross-genre stuff. Anyone who expects
> anything other than goofy cinematic characters in that context is
> fooling themselves.
And my point is that if you neglect every bit of assistance he has on his
very own he started with a 20+ score in gunnery, as well as a bunch of high
scores in other physical skills.
It makes character development a bit trivial if a character can start out
already as a master in whatever specialization he fills in the party.
heratyk
news:c3b43...@enews4.newsguy.com...
> heratyk wrote:
> > The cover is the first thing people notice about a book, and is quite
often
> > the deciding factor in whether or not they give it a second look.
Putting
> > really attractive and attention-getting art on the cover is a
significant
> > marketing issue. Those of us who are already fans are likely to get it
> > anyway, but how will it attract new players?
>
> Or just something simple and elegant like the D&D 3E covers.
That would be fine, too. Although I don't consider the D&D 3E covers to be
a particularly good example.
>
> But whatever else they do PLEASE don't do any funky formatting inside
> like the d20 Call of Cthulu books. Bleah!
I agree with you there. Also, there's no need for full-color interior pages
or a lot of margin art. That adds great expense without necessarily
improving the product in any meaningful way.
--
heratyk
http://members.cox.net/cyberdungeon/index.html
Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day.
Kent Allard
wrote:
> Also, there's no need for full-color interior pages
> or a lot of margin art. That adds great expense without necessarily
> improving the product in any meaningful way.
Actually, with the amount of piracy going on, full-color interior pages are almost a
security feature. Having art run under the text makes Optical Character Recognition
(OCR) much harder (sometimes impossible) and full colour scans make for huge PDF
files which are harder to trade than the smaller OCRed files.
I've noticed in all my never GURPS books that SJGames is running grayscale imagery
behind the copy on every page, so I'm sure they are aware of the advantages here.
Michael W. Ryder
I hate that direction as it only takes one mistake to totally ruin the
readability of a page. And if its not caught before it goes to market
it is yet another errata that has to be kept with the book for eternity.
A perfect example is the latest Witchcraft supplement by Eden Studios.
Several of the pages had white text on a black background. Most of
these were "almost" readable but required a much slower reading speed to
read, but at least one page was totally unreadable.
I know that companies want to protect themselves from piracy and too
make their products more "artsy" but I think most buyers want something
that they can scan quickly for information rather than trudge through a
lot of low legibility text.
Leszek Karlik
<evil@hearts_of_men.net> disseminated foul capitalist propaganda:
[...]
> Actually, with the amount of piracy going on, full-color interior
> pages are almost a security feature. Having art run under the text
> makes Optical Character Recognition (OCR) much harder (sometimes
> impossible) and full colour scans make for huge PDF
> files which are harder to trade than the smaller OCRed files.
Rrrrright.
People are trading _movies_ on P2P networks. They're a tad larger than
full colour scans of books, but nobody seems bothered.
Leslie
--
Sol-Earthsa Leszek Leslie Karlik dam Posen; leslie @ ideefixe . pl
Drone, Offensive; Special Circumstances, Contact Section.
GH/L/S/O d- s+:- a25 C++ UL+ P L++ E W-() N+++* K w(---) M- PS+(+++) PE
Y+ PGP++ !t---(++) 5++ X- R+++*>$ !tv b++++ DI+ D--- G-- e>+ h- r% y+*
Joshua Stratton
> On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 13:34:35 -0500, Kent Allard
> <evil@hearts_of_men.net> disseminated foul capitalist propaganda:
>
> [...]
> > Actually, with the amount of piracy going on, full-color interior
> > pages are almost a security feature. Having art run under the text
> > makes Optical Character Recognition (OCR) much harder (sometimes
> > impossible) and full colour scans make for huge PDF
> > files which are harder to trade than the smaller OCRed files.
>
> Rrrrright.
>
> People are trading _movies_ on P2P networks. They're a tad larger than
> full colour scans of books, but nobody seems bothered.
No, that only proves his point. No one bothers trading the D&D movie on
P2P networks, but I bet people do trade the D&D books. Thus, if 4e is a
movie, it'll be safe! ;)
Korin Duval
<nob...@mixmaster.it> wrote:
>I hope the covers on the website aren't definitive.
Should they need a good artist... Well, lemme know via e-mail: I know
some professional that would be HONORED ^_________^
Korin Duval
Funksaw
There's a thread on RPG.net where we were talking about the covers -
we collaborated, taking advice from people posting to the thread, and
designed alternate covers that we thought would be better.
Basically, to show that, unlike most times when the fans say "we could
do a better job than this," we actually could...
None of these will be used by SJGames, none of them are official.
Don't start any rumors over this.'
But they still look pretty.
Here's the link:
Sam Spade
news:417bedbe.0403...@posting.google.com...
The ones at the end of the thread are fabulous. Good work, Funksaw, even if
it doesn't get picked up.
Nis Haller Baggesen
>
>
> There's a thread on RPG.net where we were talking about the covers -
> we collaborated, taking advice from people posting to the thread, and
> designed alternate covers that we thought would be better.
>
> Basically, to show that, unlike most times when the fans say "we could
> do a better job than this," we actually could...
>
> None of these will be used by SJGames, none of them are official.
> Don't start any rumors over this.'
To bad. But then I can always use the bad cover art as an excuse not to
buy the new version.
>
> But they still look pretty.
Very much so - I especially liked the reworking you had done one Buzz's
widescreen cover.
>
NHB
Korin Duval
[...]
>Basically, to show that, unlike most times when the fans say "we could
>do a better job than this," we actually could...
You know... I _LOVE_ GURPS :) but I always felt like the illustrations
were some kind of... uninspiring (except a few chosen books).
By the way, you know how to submit some artwork to SJ Games in hope of
working for them?
I think my pro friend ARE good enough (no, wait, they ARE good.
Stop.), and very fast and reliable in doing the work!
>None of these will be used by SJGames, none of them are official.
>Don't start any rumors over this.'
No, I won't :)
>But they still look pretty.
I'll go and see ASAP.
Korin Duval
Thomas Borreson
s...@spade.com wrote on 3/20/04 4:01 PM:
The Buzz/Funksaw collaboration in particular is a vast improvement over the
official designs for the 4e core books. So is Funksaw's basic black in my
opinion. So is just using the 3rd Edition Revised cover art and changing the
relevant portions.
The present artwork, I would accept if they were doing it as a cost-saving
measure, and were thereby dredging up the smelliest, cheapest art-by-the-
pound and passing the savings on to me. Somehow, I suspect it does not have
that effect - the website mentions top-notch artwork, and these two not even
close to top-notch examples in the same line of thought.
As it stands, I have no real urgency to upgrade. I have several dozen third
edition books that aren't going to vanish like dead ninjas. I'm not
presently in a game that'll be leaping to 4e anytime soon, nor do I have any
such game in the pipe. I don't see anything about Traveller or Transhuman
Space going 4e. And second printings are when the errata gets worked out
anyways.
So really, I can afford to wait, and the present artwork on the two basic
set books is incentive to do so. Perhaps I'd snag one of the 'special
edition' ones if it has a nice plain cover and isn't significantly more
expensive and is actually available when I have money. And if SJG sticks to
their guns on the cover art, some time around the 1.5 to two year mark, I'll
actually bite the bullet and buy the 4th Edition books... and cover up the
artwork with OD green duct tape, with lettering courtesy of a sharpie
marker. It's a good field expedient modification, and ultimately less
jarring to my eyes than the combo of boring art, retro-text and gaudy color
schemes.
Timelines presume that the actual game material is 'par' for GURPS products.
If they hit the 'really freaking cool' end of the spectrum, all bets are
off. I won't hold my breath on that expectation. Transhuman Space,
Cliffhangers 2nd Edition, and Traveller Ground Forces (had it since it first
came out, and I still take it off the shelf and leaf through it even when
I'm not in a related campaign) had that effect on me. They also presume that
I don't find a game opportunity for which I NEED one of the 4th Edition
books. In either case, I'd still obliterate the cover art, and vaguely
resent having paid for that 'feature'. But they'd still get my money, I
guess.
Now, the one for Fantasy I rather like... and is much better at living up to
the bragging about top-notch artwork. Therefore it actually feels like I'm
getting value for the portion of the increased cost over previous editions
that'll go into making it look prettier. And I might actually buy this book
BEFORE the core books, because the subject is more interesting to me than a
new set of core rules. For that matter, it's conceivably the type of thing I
might buy and use even if I didn't play GURPS, and the cover art was
something my cat coughed up.
That's my ruthless meritocracy, in a nutshell.
--
Thomas V. Borreson [tbor...@interbaun.com]
"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the
lie--deliberate, contrived and dishonest--but the
myth--persistant, persuasive and unrealistic."
John Fitzgerald Kennedy (1917-63)
fabio milito pagliara
korinNOd...@yahoo.it (Korin Duval) wrote:
>
>By the way, you know how to submit some artwork to SJ Games in hope of
>working for them?
make art sampler and send them to SJ, no internet is better IMO since
demonstrate that you took enough care to send them
an art book and an history of already published work also helps
a willingness to be a pro (to be in time, to work on assignment and so
on) and someway to prove it would be very good
in the while write also to nearest editor ;)
--
best regards, fabio
Ingo Siekmann
-snip
> By the way, you know how to submit some artwork to SJ Games in hope of
> working for them?
http://www.sjgames.com/general/guidelines/artists/
A little dated (and now, maybe even outdated), but probably a starting
point to look further.
Bye
Ingo
Kent Allard
fun...@linuxmail.org (Funksaw) wrote:
> There's a thread on RPG.net where we were talking about the covers -
> we collaborated, taking advice from people posting to the thread, and
> designed alternate covers that we thought would be better.
>
> Basically, to show that, unlike most times when the fans say "we could
> do a better job than this," we actually could...
>
> None of these will be used by SJGames, none of them are official.
> Don't start any rumors over this.'
>
> But they still look pretty.
>
> Here's the link:
>
> http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=109803
I don't see any of these as being a big improvement over the proposed covers.
Personally I'd prefer to see better illustrator work up a new multi-genre cover for
each. And get rid of the logo in the box treatment for the line extensions. The
banner over the title on current source books is much nicer.
Jürgen Hubert
is actually _bad_. It has a nice retro look to it. I can live with that.
I will buy the books, in one way or another (I hope to get Warehouse 23
vouchers for a Pyramid article or two), and even if the art _was_ bad, I'd
still buy them.
Incidentally, I think the weapon on the second cover looks a bit less
phallic in the enlarged image... ;-)
--
- Jürgen Hubert
Urbis - A World of Cities
http://juergen.the-huberts.net/dnd/urbis/index.html
Messageboard: http://juergen.the-huberts.net/forum/list.php?f=7
Kent Allard
"Jürgen Hubert" <jhu...@gmx.de> wrote:
> I dunno about all this - while I've see better, I don't think the cover art
> is actually _bad_. It has a nice retro look to it. I can live with that.
>
> I will buy the books, in one way or another (I hope to get Warehouse 23
> vouchers for a Pyramid article or two), and even if the art _was_ bad, I'd
> still buy them.
>
> Incidentally, I think the weapon on the second cover looks a bit less
> phallic in the enlarged image... ;-)
I'll buy them too, that's not the point. It sounds like (based on feedback I've read
on a few boards) about 50% of the current GURPS 'stakeholders' won't be buying the
new books for various reasons. About 90% don't seem to like the art, and those that
do are not enthusiastic - like you, they think the covers are "not too bad" or
"retro".
If SJGames wants to generate income (and new players) they'd better be getting more
than yawns from folks walking past these covers as the enter game stores.
Funksaw
> On 20 Mar 2004 14:40:50 -0800, fun...@linuxmail.org (Funksaw) wrote:
>
> By the way, you know how to submit some artwork to SJ Games in hope of
> working for them?
> I think my pro friend ARE good enough (no, wait, they ARE good.
> Stop.), and very fast and reliable in doing the work!
>
I wouldn't bother, really. This came out as a reaction to the art of
G4, not out of any desire to go into graphic design professionally.
Besides, SJG wouldn't hire a designer that isn't also an "artist."
Rupert Boleyn
<evil@hearts_of_men.net> carved upon a tablet of ether:
> I'll buy them too, that's not the point. It sounds like (based on feedback I've read
> on a few boards) about 50% of the current GURPS 'stakeholders' won't be buying the
> new books for various reasons. About 90% don't seem to like the art, and those that
> do are not enthusiastic - like you, they think the covers are "not too bad" or
> "retro".
You say that like you think "retro" means "bad" or "not very good". I
like the covers, BTW. At first I thought they looked okay, in a Space:
1889 sort of way, but they've grown on me.
--
Rupert Boleyn <rbo...@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
Kent Allard
Rupert Boleyn <rbo...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> > I'll buy them too, that's not the point. It sounds like (based on feedback
> > I've read
> > on a few boards) about 50% of the current GURPS 'stakeholders' won't be
> > buying the
> > new books for various reasons. About 90% don't seem to like the art, and
> > those that
> > do are not enthusiastic - like you, they think the covers are "not too bad"
> > or
> > "retro".
>
> You say that like you think "retro" means "bad" or "not very good".
Most folks are referring to the 'retro' look as being 'old' or 'early D&D' or
'fan art' as opposed to 'retro' meaning stylistically like another era. (In
short - the bad retro, not the good retro.)
> I like the covers, BTW. At first I thought they looked okay, in a Space:
> 1889 sort of way, but they've grown on me.
Grown on you doesn't sound appealing in both the literal and figurative senses
;-)
Rupert Boleyn
<evil@hearts_of_men.net> carved upon a tablet of ether:
> > I like the covers, BTW. At first I thought they looked okay, in a Space:
> > 1889 sort of way, but they've grown on me.
>
> Grown on you doesn't sound appealing in both the literal and figurative senses
> ;-)
And there we go. How can "Initially okay, but they've grown on me and
now i think they're cool" be construed as being negative? I can see
that this may not be the best effect for a book cover you hope will
say "Buy me! Buy me!" to shoppers to have, but it's not negative or
even luke-warm, IMO.
Kent Allard
Rupert Boleyn <rbo...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> > Grown on you doesn't sound appealing in both the literal and figurative
> > senses
> > ;-)
>
> And there we go. How can "Initially okay, but they've grown on me and
> now i think they're cool" be construed as being negative? I can see
> that this may not be the best effect for a book cover you hope will
> say "Buy me! Buy me!" to shoppers to have, but it's not negative or
> even luke-warm, IMO.
Note the smiley... As in "it was a joke"
Rupert Boleyn
> > now i think they're cool" be construed as being negative? I can see
> > that this may not be the best effect for a book cover you hope will
> > say "Buy me! Buy me!" to shoppers to have, but it's not negative or
> > even luke-warm, IMO.
>
> Note the smiley... As in "it was a joke"
Sorry. I'm getting a bit fed up with statements like "..and all the
positive comments are luke-warm and half-hearted." I was expecting
someone to say "and here's another barely positive comment".
Stephen V Cole
Douglas Bailey
> I think the cover art is fine.
Fair enough.
I think it isn't fine: it won't stop me from investigating 4e, but I can
certainly imagine it'll put off other potential buyers who don't already
have 10+ years as GURPS fans.
I'd much rather have a cover with multiple "vignettes" in an effort to
convey the variety that GURPS is capable of. Towards that end, I think the
new covers are the worst I've seen on a Basic set.
doug
--
"Don't stay in a sad place where they don't care how you are..."
--David Bowie
Kent Allard
Douglas Bailey <trys...@world.std.com> wrote:
> I think it isn't fine: it won't stop me from investigating 4e, but I can
> certainly imagine it'll put off other potential buyers who don't already
> have 10+ years as GURPS fans.
>
> I'd much rather have a cover with multiple "vignettes" in an effort to
> convey the variety that GURPS is capable of. Towards that end, I think the
> new covers are the worst I've seen on a Basic set.
I'd have to agree with you on both counts here. I never bought into GURPS because it
wasn't appealing enough to pick up - even though I have quite a few sourcebooks
which I used for other game systems. It was the Discworld book and GURPS lite that
got me and my players to switch.
Patrick Spinler
>
>>There's a thread on RPG.net where we were talking about the covers -
>>we collaborated, taking advice from people posting to the thread, and
>>designed alternate covers that we thought would be better.
>>
>>Basically, to show that, unlike most times when the fans say "we could
>>do a better job than this," we actually could...
>>
>>None of these will be used by SJGames, none of them are official.
>>Don't start any rumors over this.'
>>
>>But they still look pretty.
>>
>>Here's the link:
>>
>>http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=109803
>
Oooooohh. These are, um, fabulous isn't too strong a word. Serious,
serious kudos to the artist(s) who created these.
Here's some shortcuts for those who's rather not wade through the entire
thread.
https://webspace.utexas.edu/brb289/www/gurpssteamtech.jpg
https://webspace.utexas.edu/brb289/www/gurpssteampunk.jpg
https://webspace.utexas.edu/brb289/www/gurpsbuzzfantasy.jpg
https://webspace.utexas.edu/brb289/www/gurpsbuzzmagic.jpg
https://webspace.utexas.edu/brb289/www/gurpsbuzzscreen.jpg
https://webspace.utexas.edu/brb289/www/gurpsfantasysnarky.jpg
https://webspace.utexas.edu/brb289/www/gurpsmagicsnarky.jpg
https://webspace.utexas.edu/brb289/www/gurpsfantasy.jpg
https://webspace.utexas.edu/brb289/www/gurpsmagic.jpg
https://webspace.utexas.edu/brb289/www/gurpswidescreen.jpg
http://www.buzzmo.com/gurps.gif
https://webspace.utexas.edu/brb289/www/gurpsbasicblack2.jpg
Man, I really, really, seriously hope that the official covers are as
nice. If not, I've saved a copy of these, and will be re-covering my
books. :-)
Hey SJ Games, if you monitor this, please consider giving this guy a
commission. Seriously, I'd appreciate it if someone with a pyramid
subscription would bring these to the attention of the company.
As for me, I'm dumping a set of full color images of these, and am off
to my local game shop to pre-order my copies. I'll make certain the
people know that these covers are only fan suggestions, but with covers
half so nice, perhaps my local game shop may start stocking GURPS,
something they do not do at the present time.
-- Pat
NorthSaber
good enough reason to "upgrade" from my 3rd edition books +
compendiums. Meanwhile, it seems to me that SJGames' purpose for
publishing a new edition (that's very DnD'esque) is to attract new
gamers, and so having an attractive cover is *very* important.
If I happen to get the 4th ed books as presents at some point, I will
with 90% certainty print out some of the covers made in the thread
mentioned above and make slipcovers for my books. Funny how there are
so many incredible illustrators in the industry, and SJGames can't
find someone better for their core books... Oh well.
mcv
: Stephen V Cole wrote:
:> I think the cover art is fine.
:
: Fair enough.
:
: I think it isn't fine: it won't stop me from investigating 4e, but I can
: certainly imagine it'll put off other potential buyers who don't already
: have 10+ years as GURPS fans.
:
: I'd much rather have a cover with multiple "vignettes" in an effort to
: convey the variety that GURPS is capable of. Towards that end, I think the
: new covers are the worst I've seen on a Basic set.
I think the cover art would be fine for another game. Well, apart from
the dildo gun, obviously. But these kind of covers would be great for
a retro SF RPG, approximately the size of Castle Falkenstein or
Fading Suns or something like that. For a system that claims to be able
to do anything, and is not just intended for its own niche genre, it's
just not appropriate.
Vignettes would be great. Show the different settings on the cover.
Or at least the different charachters you can make. Maybe the bubbles
were a bit cheesy and not really all the great, but they did convey
the idea that you can do wildly different things with this game.
I really liked that subtitle "one game, infinite worlds" from those
alternative covers. That also gets the point across.
mcv.
Douglas Bailey
> Douglas Bailey <trys...@world.std.com> wrote:
>> I'd much rather have a cover with multiple "vignettes" in an effort to
>> convey the variety that GURPS is capable of.
>
> Or at least the different charachters you can make.
While I'm griping, I'd also prefer something a bit more dynamic: the
stances portrayed on the current covers are very... still. Posed-looking.
Wax-model-esque. A bit more energy wouldn't go amiss IMO: we're trying to
convey that the game is exciting and fun to play.
> I really liked that subtitle "one game, infinite worlds" from those
> alternative covers.
I liked that, too. I thought most of the sample slogans for the other
supplements were pretty forced, but "one game, infinite worlds" is an
excellent summation of what core GURPS aims for as a system.
doug
--
"It's just for now; it's just for now; even if it makes you happy..."
--Wir
Korin Duval
[...]
>I wouldn't bother, really. This came out as a reaction to the art of
>G4,
Hell, no!
They ARE pro, and it just made me think that proposing to SJ Games
would be profitable... For both.
>not out of any desire to go into graphic design professionally.
>Besides, SJG wouldn't hire a designer that isn't also an "artist."
They're NOT designers, they ARE artists!
Korin Duval
Korin Duval
<Ingo-S...@web.de> wrote:
[...]
> http://www.sjgames.com/general/guidelines/artists/
>
>A little dated (and now, maybe even outdated), but probably a starting
>point to look further.
Thank you, I'll start from there!
Korin Duval
Korin Duval
<f.milito...@tiscali.it> wrote:
[...]
>>By the way, you know how to submit some artwork to SJ Games in hope of
>>working for them?
Ehi, Fabio! Piacere vederti qui! (Nice to see you here!)
>make art sampler and send them to SJ, no internet is better IMO since
>demonstrate that you took enough care to send them
Thay usually do this... They're in the work since 10 years ago.
>an art book and an history of already published work also helps
Cut-and-paste ^________^
>a willingness to be a pro (to be in time, to work on assignment and so
>on) and someway to prove it would be very good
References... That would be easy.
>in the while write also to nearest editor ;)
What I needed the most is (was? see post below) an address...
Maybe I wasn't THAT clear :(
Korin Duval
Kent Allard
korinNOd...@yahoo.it (Korin Duval) wrote:
> They're NOT designers, they ARE artists!
Reworking the fonts and cropping pictures someone else drew is design, not art. I
work professionally doing both design and illustration and I would not hire anyone
based on the work done in that other newsgroup.
Bobzilla
<pspi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>https://webspace.utexas.edu/brb289/www/gurpssteamtech.jpg
>https://webspace.utexas.edu/brb289/www/gurpssteampunk.jpg
>https://webspace.utexas.edu/brb289/www/gurpsbuzzfantasy.jpg
>https://webspace.utexas.edu/brb289/www/gurpsbuzzmagic.jpg
>https://webspace.utexas.edu/brb289/www/gurpsbuzzscreen.jpg
>https://webspace.utexas.edu/brb289/www/gurpsfantasysnarky.jpg
>https://webspace.utexas.edu/brb289/www/gurpsmagicsnarky.jpg
>https://webspace.utexas.edu/brb289/www/gurpsfantasy.jpg
>https://webspace.utexas.edu/brb289/www/gurpsmagic.jpg
>https://webspace.utexas.edu/brb289/www/gurpswidescreen.jpg
>http://www.buzzmo.com/gurps.gif
>https://webspace.utexas.edu/brb289/www/gurpsbasicblack2.jpg
>
>Man, I really, really, seriously hope that the official covers are as
>nice. If not, I've saved a copy of these, and will be re-covering my
>books. :-)
Actually I'm not that impressed with the above covers. Way too black
and the ones that aren't that much different than the ones SJ Games
already has.
The black ones just seem silly why spend the money for color and have
huge black bars or the solid black one...ick. That is my biggest
complaint about Hero 5 is that plain textbook like cover. Having a
plain cover for a leather special edition but not on the regular one.
Give me the Hero 4th ed. cover any day.
Bob.
Phil Masters
probably want to look at today's Daily Illuminator:
(March 26th, for those arriving late.)
--
Phil Masters http://www.philm.demon.co.uk
Consternation: RPG Convention, Cambridge, 2005:
http://www.consternation.org.uk/
GodlessRose
meaningful way, at least if the art is good. Most people have an
easier time grasping information presented visually than verbally.
Good illustrations are a big help to the GM in conveying the tone or
feel of a setting. As Robin Laws put it (Robin's Laws of Good Game
Mastering, pp. 13), "The illustration is your friend." I've found that
true in my personal experience, as well.
All the Best,
Charles
"heratyk" <ele...@cox.net-nospam> wrote in message news:<NLl6c.8721$272.7057@lakeread03>...
> I agree with you there. Also, there's no need for full-color interior pages
> or a lot of margin art. That adds great expense without necessarily
> improving the product in any meaningful way.
Korin Duval
<evil@hearts_of_men.net> wrote:
>> They're NOT designers, they ARE artists!
>
>Reworking the fonts and cropping pictures someone else drew is design, not art. I
>work professionally doing both design and illustration and I would not hire anyone
>based on the work done in that other newsgroup.
I was talking about the people I know... Who are artists, not
designers.
I was not talking about SJ work, or other people mentioned in this
thread... Sorry.
Korin Duval
Jürgen Hubert
"Phil Masters" <ph...@philm.demon.co.uk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:tgo7605gmusho19a4...@4ax.com...
> By the way, if people are still interested in the cover issue, they
> probably want to look at today's Daily Illuminator:
>
> http://www.sjgames.com/ill/
>
> (March 26th, for those arriving late.)
Let me be the first to say:
"The new covers suck! Why couldn't SJG stick with the old ones?"
...
Hey, you knew someone would say this sooner or later. So why waste time
waiting for the new covers? ;-)