character classes in Gurps
Ray Cochener
: Personally I think "classes" in GURPS are only useful in the forms they
: currently exist or can be made by the GM. Note that Martial Arts Style
: rules and listings come pretty ( and too, IMO ) close to classes,
: especially when they are expanded to things some people have suggested
: like "the Swashbuckler style". Ugh.
: FOr the purpose of aiding generation of characters of particular
: professions, I point out the GM has always been able to, and would be
: wise to, make prototype characters representing the average beginner,
: professional, and expert levels in any profession that is going to be
: heavily used in the campaign. This can fit in well with notes about how
I think that classes should be used, where they are realistic.
Computer programers may only have a few skills, but a Navy seal is a
definite charachter class- as is a college graduate with a given degree!
Let's face it, a masters in psychology will have a *lot* of things in
common with any other masters in psychology. Thus, as a class, masters in
psychology makes sense. the point to remember is that it is a package
class, not a restrictive class- while doctors may all take the hipocratic
oath, and be subject to the AMA (at least in the US), they don't all have
a hobby skill of golf.
--
To Give Pleasure is to beget pleasure.
To beget pleasure is to receive pleasure.
May joy be your eternal cycle of ecstacy.
Silveroak
Niall Teasdale
>Peter VonKleinsmid (sk...@eskimo.com) wrote:
>: Personally I think "classes" in GURPS are only useful in the forms they
>: currently exist or can be made by the GM. Note that Martial Arts Style
>: rules and listings come pretty ( and too, IMO ) close to classes,
>: especially when they are expanded to things some people have suggested
>: like "the Swashbuckler style". Ugh.
The Martial Arts styles are much closer to the Package Deals lists for Hero
Games products and I think they are a good idea. They represent a package o
skills someone using this style should have. A Swashbuckler style would be
quite reasonable, assuming that someone could come up with a batch of skills
which all Swashbucklers would have. I'm not sure you could, but Fencing
style is quite reasonable in the same way that Kenjutsu style is.
>: FOr the purpose of aiding generation of characters of particular
>: professions, I point out the GM has always been able to, and would be
>: wise to, make prototype characters representing the average beginner,
>: professional, and expert levels in any profession that is going to be
>: heavily used in the campaign. This can fit in well with notes about how
And this 'prototype' is exactly what the MA styles are. In fact a
Swashbuckler prototype is more likely than a Swashbuckler style since a
prototype can have a far broader range of skills than a MA style.
> I think that classes should be used, where they are realistic.
>Computer programers may only have a few skills, but a Navy seal is a
>definite charachter class- as is a college graduate with a given degree!
The problem here is one of terminology. Character Classes sounds much to
like AD&D (spit!) and appears to be overly restrictive. Prototypes sounds
much better. In practise, it really doesn't matter as long as the people
playing the characters don't simply end up playing stereotypes because of
the frameworks set up for them.
>Let's face it, a masters in psychology will have a *lot* of things in
>common with any other masters in psychology. Thus, as a class, masters in
>psychology makes sense. the point to remember is that it is a package
>class, not a restrictive class- while doctors may all take the hipocratic
>oath, and be subject to the AMA (at least in the US), they don't all have
>a hobby skill of golf.
Of course, they should have an option of golf or tennis. :-)
Niall.
James Jones
Prototypes book to give *guidelines* on skills that certain characters
should have. But you will *never* find SJ Games publishing a book that
requires character classes. Right?
--
James Jones Voice: 908-855-5750
581 Main Street Fax: 908-855-3037
Woodbridge, NJ 07095 Email: jjo...@cnj.digex.net
Bill Seurer
|> Peter VonKleinsmid (sk...@eskimo.com) wrote:
|> : Personally I think "classes" in GURPS are only useful in the forms they
|> : currently exist or can be made by the GM. Note that Martial Arts Style
|> : rules and listings come pretty ( and too, IMO ) close to classes,
|> : especially when they are expanded to things some people have suggested
|> : like "the Swashbuckler style". Ugh.
|> : professions, I point out the GM has always been able to, and would be
|> : wise to, make prototype characters representing the average beginner,
|> : professional, and expert levels in any profession that is going to be
|> : heavily used in the campaign. This can fit in well with notes about how
|>
|> Computer programers may only have a few skills, but a Navy seal is a
|> definite charachter class- as is a college graduate with a given degree!
|> common with any other masters in psychology. Thus, as a class, masters in
|> psychology makes sense. the point to remember is that it is a package
|> class, not a restrictive class- while doctors may all take the hipocratic
|> oath, and be subject to the AMA (at least in the US), they don't all have
|> a hobby skill of golf.
I don't know about that. My wife and I both have degrees in computer
science and we both even work for the same company. But our educations
(other than a few basics) were completely different and sometimes I wonder
if we even work in the same field since we speak different "computerese"
dialects. The basics we shared are probably common to EEs and other
majors too.
--
- Bill Seurer ID Tools and Compiler Development IBM Rochester, MN
Business: BillS...@vnet.ibm.com Home: BillS...@aol.com
Dean Randle
I think there is a place for something akin to a character class
in GURPS. It would look very much like a racial package, and would
have a similar game effect (all elves have high DX, etc...)
As an example, take a fighting knights background, in theory they
have been wearing weights since they were 6, been taught the basics
of chivalry and combat, and awarded their spurs along with a basic
weapons package. The template might look like:
+2 ST,
Broadsword at DX,
Mace at DX-1,
Crossbow at DX-1,
Lance at DX-1,
Shield at DX+1,
Riding at DX+2,
Saviour-Faire (Knight) at IQ+2,
Area Knowledge (Lords Fief) at IQ+2,
Law at IQ-2,
Wealth (1 level)
status 2
Code of Honour -15 pts (or 15 pt secret, is not honourable)
Patron (campaign dependent)
Duty -10? (campaign dependent)
Enemies (campaign dependent)
The affect is the same as a racial package without being as
restrictive as a character class, it allows generalisations (all
knights can ride well, are strong, ...) and allows the more expensive
character types (knights disadvantages don't count towards the -40
point limit) to be generated with more character forming disadvantages.
PS. I just did this template off the top of my head so please pick on
the concept not the details of the above.
Cheers
-----------+-----------------------+ What goes around, comes around,
Dean Randle|ran...@mhs.dia.govt.nz| and usually catches you in the
-----------+-----------------------+ back of the head. - anon
Ray Cochener
: > I think that classes should be used, where they are realistic.
: >definite charachter class- as is a college graduate with a given degree!
: >Let's face it, a masters in psychology will have a *lot* of things in
: >common with any other masters in psychology. Thus, as a class, masters in
: >psychology makes sense. the point to remember is that it is a package
: I don't know. I believe that you can not put a class to a person. I
: mean after all how do you put classes on an infinte number of people with an
: infinite number of skills? One of Grups greatest advatages is that it avoids
I didn't suggest putting an infinite number of classes on an
infinite number of people. A class is just that- a category. Training
centers, skill tests, and seminars will tend to create micro-classes-
groups of people with closely similar skills. Intensive training- special
forces or doctrates in medicine- create a definite class- people who have
recieved a set of skills from which to base a single type of life-
objective (taking lives or saving them, as the case may be)
This doesn't mean we need a "pro-bowler class" and a "sca class"
it simply means that "classes" do reflect a real-world phenominon- the
training of large groups of people in the same set of skills.
If you don't believe me, try finding a vet who doesn't know first aid.
Dean Randle
ccha...@ivory.trentu.ca
I was wondering. In your campain would this be maditory. After all what would
happen if you were playing a knight who was lazy but so rich that is
instructors did'nt care. What about some one who trained as a knight but never
followed it's code just the fighting technices. What about the knight who has
the animal empathy advantage and like the lace so much that he figured he never
needed the sword. What about the female knight, in a realist medieval society
if a woman ever became a knight there would be no way that she would get any
patron unless the kingdom that she came from was radically differnet from the
norm. What I'm getting at is that there are exceptions to the status quo and if
classes were introduced into Gurps then it would take an infinite number of
hadbooks to cover them all! That's whats cool about gurps you don't make a
"knight" you make Sir Darvin the Brave (or not so brave).
From: Chall
*Each person is his/her own character class*
ccha...@ivory.trentu.ca
>
>I don't think the classic "you can *only* have these skills" character class
>is what they're talking about. They're talking more about character
>prototypes.
> For instance, in my campaign setting, the king has an elite group of
>knights called Knight of the White Sash. Now, in order to get into this
>knighthood, there are certain skills you must have. And once you get in,
>there are certain advantages and disadvantages you *will* have. To wit, a
>White Sash lancer would have Riding and Lance at 14, Strength 13 (in order to
>use the lance competently), Savoir-Faire at 12, other combat skills of at
>least 30 total, Status +1, Duty, at least comfortable Wealth, and most likely
>a Vow or Code of Honor.
>
In a corrupt world however some knights would get by with lesser skills
and more money. The reason being is that many rich people would want the
prestege of knight hood but not all the work it involves so they would use
thier money to help them get through traning with a minimal effort and when
battle came they would have also used there money to "earn" the job of general
where they would have many loyal knights to protect them and they wouldn't have
to lift a finger. If the world was corrupt enough it wouldn't matter how many
battles these knights lost or how many lives they forfited just as long as they
could still birbe the "higher ups" This is one example to a knight that may
have say a 10 str and a knowlege in lance of about 7, just a good acting and bard skills
and a lot of money and the lazyness disadvantage. I'm just pointing out that
there can be many exceptoins to the rule and players will think of these.
If you look at the sample jobs table, you will see that there are certain
>requirements for a person to be, say, a jongleur. These could be considered
>character "classes" to some extent. You have to meet some minimum level of
>skills, advantages and disadvantages in order to really be a practicing
>jongleur. Now, that jongleur may also be a mage, or a spy, or really good at
>archery, or one of the most knowledgable people around on the art of 13th
>century Fnordians. He is only limited in that, if he wants to claim to be a
>jongleur, he's got to spend a minimum amount of points on achieving the skills
>necessary to carry out that profession.
> A practicing doctor will be expected to have a minimal amount of knowledge
>in Physician, some other medical and biological skills, and most likely a Vow,
>covering their Hippocratic Oath, and likewise most likely some level of Status
>(people look up to doctors) and wealth (unless they're just out of their
>residency, in which case they're probably still paying off Med. school)
>
>
> I argree that for certain proffessions you do need at least some
"skill" in order to be one, after all its hard to imagine a con man who has no
socail skills but as for minumum requirements for that skill than you might
find that other skils will help people to get by with a lesser pre requsite.
For instance we have all heard of conmen/doctors who have a surgury skill of
about 8 and a fast talk skill of 18!
From: Chall
* Watch out for the elusive ciropractor Dr. Quang, his theroy on spinal
treatment is "no spine, no pain!"*
Dean Randle
>
> I was wondering. In your campain would this be maditory. After all what would
> happen if you were playing a knight who was lazy but so rich that is
> instructors did'nt care. What about some one who trained as a knight but never
> followed it's code just the fighting technices. What about the knight who has
> the animal empathy advantage and like the lace so much that he figured he never
> needed the sword. What about the female knight, in a realist medieval society
> if a woman ever became a knight there would be no way that she would get any
> patron unless the kingdom that she came from was radically differnet from the
> norm. What I'm getting at is that there are exceptions to the status quo and if
> classes were introduced into Gurps then it would take an infinite number of
> hadbooks to cover them all! That's whats cool about gurps you don't make a
> "knight" you make Sir Darvin the Brave (or not so brave).
>
> From: Chall
> *Each person is his/her own character class*
Hi Chall
I would not make the templates/classes mandatory, any more than I wopuld
make the choice of race, sex, etc. mandatory (depending on the campaign
of course). The character class package, like a racial package, bundles
certain advantages, skills and disadvantages together. Players who take
the package effectively gain a few more points outside of the bundle (the
disadvantages don't count towards their limit) if they accept a background
which has been developed as part of a society.
Just like in GURPS IST the IST Member package has "basic training" so do
many other professions which have formal training regimes (tinker, tailor,
soldier, doctor, etc.). There are, of course, people in these professions
who are not "normal" and fail to meet some of the expected minimums, but
they are uncommon.
Templates also allow quick NPC creation, the typical ..... can be easily
tweaked in GURPS to become a character.
Cheers
-----------+-----------------------+ What goes around, comes around,
Dean Randle|ran...@mhs.dia.govt.nz| and usually catches you in the
-----------+-----------------------+ back of the head. - anon
of the normal minimums, but there is
Peter VonKleinsmid
: I think that classes should be used, where they are realistic.
: Computer programers may only have a few skills, but a Navy seal is a
: definite charachter class- as is a college graduate with a given degree!
: Let's face it, a masters in psychology will have a *lot* of things in
: common with any other masters in psychology. Thus, as a class, masters in
: psychology makes sense. the point to remember is that it is a package
: a hobby skill of golf.
There are always exceptions... and almost no one is just a class member
and not a lot of other things too. Your college degree thing is a good
example. I have a BA in English Language and Literature from the U of C...
means you need to have a couple of points in Writing and maybe a half
point in Literature, with at least a 12 in a relevant specialty of Lit.
But I also have heaps of really weird knowledge from all kinds of zany
other courses I took, and my profession is game designer/computer
programmer, of which only about 1 CP is from my colege education.
Actually, the highest concentration of points from my degree is probably
in "Student" skill...
PvK
James Jones
>There are always exceptions... and almost no one is just a class member
>and not a lot of other things too. Your college degree thing is a good
>example. I have a BA in English Language and Literature from the U of C...
>means you need to have a couple of points in Writing and maybe a half
>point in Literature, with at least a 12 in a relevant specialty of Lit.
>But I also have heaps of really weird knowledge from all kinds of zany
>other courses I took, and my profession is game designer/computer
>programmer, of which only about 1 CP is from my colege education.
>Actually, the highest concentration of points from my degree is probably
>in "Student" skill...
Let's see, how do we work Student skill? I know:
Carousing defaults to Student-1, Research defaults to Student-4,
Pretending to be Awake in Class defaults to Student+10...
:)