modular abilities
MeaningWhat
i have a question concerning modular abilities. It says that to model
spells that the caster can use once and immediately forgets, the modular
ability slot should get limited use -40%. does this imply that the
default duration of the ability is 1 min?
Rob Kelk
That's the 4e mechanic to simulate *D&D's "memorize, cast, and forget"
spell system. The default duration is the duration of one casting of the
spell.
--
Rob Kelk Personal address (ROT-13): eboxryx -ng- tznvy -qbg- pbz
"There's always somebody who's going to hate your work, no matter
how good it is. DON'T LET HIM CHASE YOU AWAY FROM WRITING, BECAUSE
THAT WAY HE WINS." - Robert M. Schroeck, 18 July 2006
MeaningWhat
> On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 19:52:13 +0200, MeaningWhat
> <meaning...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> i have a question concerning modular abilities. It says that to model
>> spells that the caster can use once and immediately forgets, the modular
>> ability slot should get limited use -40%. does this imply that the
>> default duration of the ability is 1 min?
>
> That's the 4e mechanic to simulate *D&D's "memorize, cast, and forget"
> spell system. The default duration is the duration of one casting of the
> spell.
>
duration limitation?
Bent C Dalager
The limitation says "for most advantages, each use is 1 minute of
activation".
In the case of spells I would give the spell its usual duration
instead if it's a skill-based one. If you're simulating spells using
advantages I would use 1 minute or whatever the advantage itself says.
Cheers,
Bent D
--
Bent Dalager - b...@pvv.org - http://www.pvv.org/~bcd
powered by emacs
MeaningWhat
> On 2009-09-11, MeaningWhat <meaning...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>> i have a question concerning modular abilities. It says that to model
>> spells that the caster can use once and immediately forgets, the modular
>> ability slot should get limited use -40%. does this imply that the
>> default duration of the ability is 1 min?
>
> The limitation says "for most advantages, each use is 1 minute of
> activation".
>
> In the case of spells I would give the spell its usual duration
> instead if it's a skill-based one. If you're simulating spells using
> advantages I would use 1 minute or whatever the advantage itself says.
>
> Cheers,
> Bent D
"spell" is unreasonably high. lets take a flight spell. the cost for a
slot with super memorization would be something like this: super
memorization (limited use 1/day -40%, physical +50%) costs for a slot 6
base + 4 per point. If i want to store flight i have to buy a slot with
166 points. The character can then fly for 1 minute once per day. This
seems very overpriced.
if on the other hand i assume that the limited use modifier on modular
abilities does not affect the duration of the ability stored in a slot,
i can modify flight with maximum duration 1 min -65% and a slot of 6 + 4
* 14 = 62 points is sufficient. It seems expensive, too, but that might
be considered a fair exchange for the flexibility modular abilites
provides.
what do you think? are 166 points for such an ability ok? or are 62
points better?
MeaningWhat
i forgot: i want to model a flight spell with the flight advantage and
modular abilities. i do not want to use the flight spell from magic.
Rob Kelk
Which means 1 second, unless the "Time to Cast" line in the spell's
description says otherwise. Or if you're casting ceremonially, in which
case it could mean many weeks or months. I believe the -40% number is a
compromise between the extremes.
(The spell effect, OTOH, continues as usual once the spell has been cast
and forgotten.)
Rob Kelk
<meaning...@googlemail.com> wrote:
<snip>
>i forgot: i want to model a flight spell with the flight advantage and
>modular abilities. i do not want to use the flight spell from magic.
In that case, go with Modular Ablities (Cosmic) with the -10% "Magic"
limitation from Powers and any other limitations you want to apply. (The
"magic" limitation turns an advantage into a magical advantage: it's
affected by anti-magic spells and effects, and won't work if there's no
mana present.) It'll be expensive, but it'll do what you want it to do.
Bent C Dalager
> thats what i think the rules say. however i think the cost of such a
> "spell" is unreasonably high. lets take a flight spell. the cost for a
> slot with super memorization would be something like this: super
> memorization (limited use 1/day -40%, physical +50%) costs for a slot 6
> base + 4 per point. If i want to store flight i have to buy a slot with
> 166 points. The character can then fly for 1 minute once per day. This
> seems very overpriced.
This is not the price for just the Flight "spell", though, it's the
price for being able to slot in any physical advantage-based "spell"
that exists in the setting and which has a point cost of no more than
40. It also does not have any of the classical GURPS spell drawbacks
such as being mana-based, costing Fatigue etc. This is pretty powerful
- 40 points is a lot!
166 points for this is a complete waste if all you're going to get out
of it is the Flight ability but if you anticipate getting more spells
later it can be a good loss leader, similar to (but way more costly
than) a classical mage taking Magery 3 but learning only very few
spells to start.
> if on the other hand i assume that the limited use modifier on modular
> abilities does not affect the duration of the ability stored in a slot,
> i can modify flight with maximum duration 1 min -65% and a slot of 6 + 4
> * 14 = 62 points is sufficient. It seems expensive, too, but that might
> be considered a fair exchange for the flexibility modular abilites
> provides.
I don't know if it's permissible to first limit Flight to 1 minute
before slotting it in. I'm not sure why it /shouldn't/ be :-)
What you /could/ do to make it more spell-like is add Costs Fatigue,
Takes Extra Time and such on very powerful "spells" to get them down
to some standard spell slot size. This is similar to how very powerful
GURPS Magic spells cost more Fatigue than others etc. If you can get
Flight down to 20 points, say, with such techniques then the slot cost
is almost halved.
Rob Kelk
>On Sat, 12 Sep 2009 15:32:22 +0200, MeaningWhat
><meaning...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>i forgot: i want to model a flight spell with the flight advantage and
>>modular abilities. i do not want to use the flight spell from magic.
>
>In that case, go with Modular Ablities (Cosmic) with the -10% "Magic"
>limitation from Powers and any other limitations you want to apply. (The
>"magic" limitation turns an advantage into a magical advantage: it's
>affected by anti-magic spells and effects, and won't work if there's no
>mana present.) It'll be expensive, but it'll do what you want it to do.
Oh, and has been mentioned over on the forums, the Modular Ability can
be used for *any* advantage, not just Flight. You're buying a container
into which the character can put any of his spells, at no further
character point cost; he just can't memorize them all at once unless the
container is big enough to hold them all at the same time.
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=62389 (I see my answers have
matched those of the GURPS Assistant Line Editor, so far. I wonder how
long I'll keep getting it right?)
David Johnston
<meaning...@googlemail.com> wrote:
If it isn't an attack.
David Johnston
<meaning...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>Bent C Dalager schrieb:
>> On 2009-09-11, MeaningWhat <meaning...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> i have a question concerning modular abilities. It says that to model
>>> spells that the caster can use once and immediately forgets, the modular
>>> ability slot should get limited use -40%. does this imply that the
>>> default duration of the ability is 1 min?
>>
>> The limitation says "for most advantages, each use is 1 minute of
>> activation".
>>
>> In the case of spells I would give the spell its usual duration
>> instead if it's a skill-based one. If you're simulating spells using
>> advantages I would use 1 minute or whatever the advantage itself says.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Bent D
>thats what i think the rules say. however i think the cost of such a
>"spell" is unreasonably high. lets take a flight spell. the cost for a
>slot with super memorization would be something like this: super
>memorization (limited use 1/day -40%, physical +50%) costs for a slot 6
>base + 4 per point. If i want to store flight i have to buy a slot with
>166 points.
Don't use 1 use per day for that purpose. That's not what it is
intended for.
MeaningWhat
this. p. 71 characters. read it up.
MeaningWhat
> On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 23:29:00 +0200, MeaningWhat
> <meaning...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Rob Kelk schrieb:
>>> On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 19:52:13 +0200, MeaningWhat
>>> <meaning...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>> i have a question concerning modular abilities. It says that to model
>>>> spells that the caster can use once and immediately forgets, the modular
>>>> ability slot should get limited use -40%. does this imply that the
>>>> default duration of the ability is 1 min?
>>> That's the 4e mechanic to simulate *D&D's "memorize, cast, and forget"
>>> spell system. The default duration is the duration of one casting of the
>>> spell.
>>>
>> which means 1 min, right? i cannot modify the abilities with a maximum
>> duration limitation?
>
> Which means 1 second, unless the "Time to Cast" line in the spell's
> description says otherwise. Or if you're casting ceremonially, in which
> case it could mean many weeks or months. I believe the -40% number is a
> compromise between the extremes.
>
> (The spell effect, OTOH, continues as usual once the spell has been cast
> and forgotten.)
abilities and advantages, not spells from gurps magic.
MeaningWhat
> On Sat, 12 Sep 2009 17:58:52 GMT, rob...@deadspam.com (Rob Kelk) wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 12 Sep 2009 15:32:22 +0200, MeaningWhat
>> <meaning...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> i forgot: i want to model a flight spell with the flight advantage and
>>> modular abilities. i do not want to use the flight spell from magic.
>> In that case, go with Modular Ablities (Cosmic) with the -10% "Magic"
>> limitation from Powers and any other limitations you want to apply. (The
>> "magic" limitation turns an advantage into a magical advantage: it's
>> affected by anti-magic spells and effects, and won't work if there's no
>> mana present.) It'll be expensive, but it'll do what you want it to do.
>
> Oh, and has been mentioned over on the forums, the Modular Ability can
> be used for *any* advantage, not just Flight. You're buying a container
> into which the character can put any of his spells, at no further
> character point cost; he just can't memorize them all at once unless the
> container is big enough to hold them all at the same time.
>
> http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=62389 (I see my answers have
> matched those of the GURPS Assistant Line Editor, so far. I wonder how
> long I'll keep getting it right?)
slots to available advantages. any idea?
MeaningWhat
> On Sat, 12 Sep 2009 15:32:22 +0200, MeaningWhat
> <meaning...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> i forgot: i want to model a flight spell with the flight advantage and
>> modular abilities. i do not want to use the flight spell from magic.
>
> In that case, go with Modular Ablities (Cosmic) with the -10% "Magic"
> limitation from Powers and any other limitations you want to apply. (The
> "magic" limitation turns an advantage into a magical advantage: it's
> affected by anti-magic spells and effects, and won't work if there's no
> mana present.) It'll be expensive, but it'll do what you want it to do.
>
MeaningWhat
points, which equals flight -40%. an upper bound on point cost is surely
166 points for the rules as written. i am not quite sure what is
reasonable. i think there should be some relation between slot cost and
available advantages.
and a second thought. how could you distinguish between limitation 1:
redistributing slots once per day and limitation 2: using an ability
contained in a slot once per day ?
logically i would say limited use on modular abilities is limitaion 1
and limited use on the advantage is limitation 2. but the rules seem to
disagree.
Rob Kelk
Like it says in the book - 10 points of Modular Abilities: Cosmic for 1
point of whichever advantage you have in it at the time (the ability to
pull *any* ability out of thin air isn't supposed to be cheap), modified
by limitations.
MeaningWhat
MeaningWhat
point cost should depend on the number of available advantages.
Rob Kelk
<meaning...@googlemail.com> wrote:
I think we're talking past each other rather than to each other. Let's
go back to the basics.
As I understand it, you're looking for an ability to be able to do
something as a magical effect, and you want to use Modular Abilities as
the base for this ability. It doesn't matter what that something is;
you've chosen "flight" as your example.
That tells me that you want to be able to change the ability in-game;
that's what the Modular Abilities advantage is for. (If you only wanted
Flight as a spell, you could simply buy Flight with the appropriate
limitations. Modular Abilities is for when you want Flight today, Detect
Metal (precise) tomorrow, eight levels of Shrinking the day after
tomorrow, and some other 40-character-point advantage the day after
that.)
There are four different broad types of Modular Abilities: Computer
Brain, Chip Slots, Super-Memorization, and Cosmic Power. The first three
must be purchased multiple times in order to have multiple advantages,
and the maximum number of character points in each "slot" is fixed;
Cosmic Power gives the character a pool of points which can be used for
multiple advantages or skills at the same time, as long as there are
enough character points in the pool for all of the advantages and
skills.
Since it's likely that you don't want to be limited to advantages that
all cost the same number of character points, you want Modular
Abilities: Cosmic Power. That's a base of 10 character points per
character-point of advantage or skill in the Modular Abilities.
You'll need the "physical" enhancement to allow for physical effects as
spells; since you likely also want mental effects as spells, you'll need
the +100% level of that enhancement. Adding the -10% "magic" limitation
makes the Modular Abilities magical in nature - they're affected by
anti-magic effects and no-mana zones.
That brings Modular Abilities (cosmic, physical and mental, magic) to 19
points per level.
After this, you'll need to design the advantages as spells. Don't add
the "magic" limitation; you've already got that on Modular Abilities. Do
add limitations for number of uses per day, preparation required (the
memorization), and anything else you want to include to bring the cost
of the advantage down.
Once you know how expensive your _most expensive_ ability is, buy that
many levels of Modular Abilities to be able to use that ability. When
you don't have that ability memorized, you can memorize one (or more, if
they're inexpensive) of your other abilities instead.
Does this help?
MeaningWhat
though i would prefer super memorization. slots that are too big, are
not really a problem.
In characters p. 71 it says that limited use should be applied to
modular abilities to model spells that are forgotten immediately after
use. That is the problem. This does not seem logical. I would rather use
the modifier once per day on modular abilities to model that only once
per day the points may be redistributed. and i would like to use maximum
duration limitation for limiting the duration of normally always on
advantages. i dont know if this is unbalancing or not.
David Johnston
There's nothing on page 71 which says that. 1 use per day works for
attacks, and works for skills/spells, but it doesn't work for
continuing advantages. Limited Duration is so much better for that
purpose. But of course Limited Duration was only introduced with
Powers.
Bent C Dalager
> points, which equals flight -40%. an upper bound on point cost is surely
> 166 points for the rules as written. i am not quite sure what is
> reasonable. i think there should be some relation between slot cost and
> available advantages.
If you don't have many advantages available to choose from then it's
definitely very expensive.
You can get Flight at 20 points though with, for instance, Takes Extra
Time 1 (-10%) and Costs Fatigue 8 (-40%). You can always get it down
to -80% if you're desperate: There's the various Flight-specific
limitations to throw into the mix, and it might make sense to use some
thematic Temporary Disadvantages that apprentice wizards tend to
suffer from when casting powerful "spells". Costs HP might be fun as
well :-)
Using such methods, a wizard's slot size and the -80% cap conspire to
set a limit on how powerful "spells" any given wizard can cast: a
wizard with slot-10 can't cast Super Luck however much he tries!
> and a second thought. how could you distinguish between limitation 1:
> redistributing slots once per day and limitation 2: using an ability
> contained in a slot once per day ?
> logically i would say limited use on modular abilities is limitaion 1
> and limited use on the advantage is limitation 2. but the rules seem to
> disagree.
I imagine there's a number of modifiers than can either go on slot
memorizing or on slot usage and in this case taking it one time for
each seems the only obvious solution. Do the rules say that this can't
be done?
Bent C Dalager
I expect meaningwhat is referring to this text on p. B71, under
Modular Abilities:
"Use Preparation Required (p. 114)
to increase the time needed to
rearrange your points, and Limited
Use (p. 112) to represent an ability
that you forget immediately after
using it."
MeaningWhat
magic.
MeaningWhat
p. 71 of charcters. i assumed that as limited use limits the modular
abilities cost, i thought that it should not be taken on the specific
ability.
i have thought about it. i think i will try to use limited use on the
modular ability slots and limit the duration of continuous advantages
with maximum duration. i will see how that works out. i did these things
to make clerical magic different from wizardly magic. fortunately no PC
wanted to be a cleric, so it is only NPCs that are using this. i will
see how poerful they are in play and then maybe change the costs
accordingly.
>
> Cheers,
> Bent D
MeaningWhat
> Hi,
> i have a question concerning modular abilities. It says that to model
> spells that the caster can use once and immediately forgets, the modular
> ability slot should get limited use -40%. does this imply that the
> default duration of the ability is 1 min?
thanks for all the advice you have given me.
here is what i did and any comments would be appreciated:
i made a list of about 50 abilities. some are very similar, i.e. detect
for various things, healing disease, healing affliction, healing injury,
... . there are only about 5 physical abilities, so the list of those is
very limited.
they have as prerequisites various levels of power investitute (between
1 and 7).
once per day the cleric may redistribute his pool of points. it takes 1
min per point that is redistributet. the cleric can use these abilities
only if he adheres to his faith. the origin of the abilities is magical.
Redistribution only succeeds if the cleric is well rested and succeeds
on a meditation roll. Each ability may be used only once per day. The
duration of continuous abilities is set via the maximum duration limitation.
i use the cosmic modular abilites with a cost of 2 character points per
point in the pool for all (mental of physical) abilities.
If i do this according to the rules i have a higher cost for a universal
slot (limitations: limited use -40%, pact -10%, magical -10%, restricted
choice -70% (for physical) or -20% (for mental), accessibility (well
rested and skill roll required) -15%, physical +50% / universal +100%).
this is -80% for mental or physical.
however universal is +100%, but as there are only a few physical
abilities and because levels of power investiture are required as
prerequisites i think these factors compensate each other.
Bent C Dalager
>
> however universal is +100%, but as there are only a few physical
> abilities and because levels of power investiture are required as
> prerequisites i think these factors compensate each other.
If you want to save some RAW points at a little cost to caster
flexibility you will have one set of physical slots and one set of
mental ones. This should give you more slots for the same CP
expenditure.