Mecha fights?
David M. Simpson
I'm trying to run a GURPS Mecha game, and so far,
every time I get them in a fight, the first hit kills!
Am I doing something wrong, or is GURPS this leathel(sp)
with armored ships??? I'm useing the Mecha in the book.
Thanks for any help,
--
________________________________________
/ David Simpson \
| Amiga 1200, Basic Stamp, RPGs, War Games |
| dsim...@iquest.net |
| http://www.iquest.net/~dsimpson |
\________________________________________/
pulver
On 1 Oct 1997, David M. Simpson wrote:
>
> I'm trying to run a GURPS Mecha game, and so far,
> every time I get them in a fight, the first hit kills!
>
> Am I doing something wrong, or is GURPS this leathel(sp)
> with armored ships??? I'm useing the Mecha in the book.
The answer is yes and no. It depends on which mecha you are fighting. The
ones in t he book are designed for Damocles background and thus give the
good guys an advantage. If you play one identical mecha against another,
especially those mecha that have ablative armor, the fight can last fo ra
little while.
Storm Hawk vs. Seraph Delta: The 'hawk has an advantage. If using its
cannon or particle beam, it should still take a couple of turns to kill a
Delta, though. If firing missiles, one shot can indeed blow away a 'Hawk
-- but the Delta is a difficult target with decoy dispsensors (flares) and
radical IR cloaking that means the Hawk launchers will have a difficult
time getting the lock on needed to fire. Likewise the Hawk's ECM and
cloaking should neutralize the Delta's launchers, and its heavy ablative
armor and high HPs should let it soak up a number of hits.
Deathstriker vs. Kuonichi: The K5 has the advantage here and can kill a
number of deathstrikers in one shot before succumbing, since its own
ablative armor and IR cloaking/flares can soak up multiple lasers hits and
make it unlikely that missiles will lock onto it. If you fight K5 vs. K5
the game will be more balanced; in the Damocles background, the
Deathstriker is a "grunt" enemy mecha designed to go down in numbers...
powered suits: the lighter battlesuits are designed to go up in smoke
pretty quickly --- they rely on dodging; check out Appleseed or BGC --
usually it is one hit, one kill.
Survivability: If you want to increase survivability, convert mecha that
have laminate only armor into ablative armor. At TL9 you can do this by
tripling the DR of whatever ablative armor you convert. This will keep
the weight the same, but let mecha survive for several turns longer
(although the armor will be worn down). Cost will be slightly different,
but don't warry about that.
Pee Kitty
Let's see...Seraph Delta vs Seraph Delta...
SD-1 punches SD-2. SD-1 rolls 241d, doing 844 points of damage (on
average). Subtracting SD-2's DR 600, that means SD-2 takes 244 hits to the
body. Ouch...that's over 1/4 its hit points there. Buuuuut, hardly an
instant kill. SD-2 can fight right back.
SD-2 shoots a rainbow laser at SD-1. RoF is 8, or two bursts of 4. It's
fairly safe to say that 6 shots will hit on average (assuming someone with
a good BW skill); the Size modifiers of most mecha are pretty high. That's
6dx60 damage, for an average roll of 1260 points of damage. Subtracting
SD-1's DR 600, that becomes 660 hits. BIG ouch. Not an instant kill, but
damned close. If the full RoF had hit, it WOULD have been an instant
kill...plus we haven't figured in for the other Rainbow laser in the other
arm...sheesh.
It's not just you. These Mecha are built with WAYYYYYY too much offense
for their own levels of defense.
--
Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian
Meow!
** Married to Rev. Unibomber on 11/15/96 - be very, very jealous ;) **
"Cogito ergo est; I think, therefore you is."
- Ray D. Tutto, King of the Moon
_The Adventures of Baron Von Munchausen_
Pauli Hakala
On 1 Oct 1997, David M. Simpson wrote:
>
> I'm trying to run a GURPS Mecha game, and so far,
> every time I get them in a fight, the first hit kills!
Elaborate a bit more. What weapon kills what? If you have equal mechs
blasting it out (For example, the Seraph Delta mechs) - Any single hit
will not often kill, but if they fire salvoes of missiles, the one getting
hit is likely to get torn into shreds. Missiles pack a lot more power than
a single laser blast, and if you fire a salvo.. Well..
With modern aircraft fired anti-tank weapons, first hit is likely all
that is needed to wreck a tank. When weapons get a lot more powerful,
destruction of lighter vehicles like mechs becomes routine with a single
hit.. Better to install the ejection seat on those mechs..
On the other tentacle, if you build a 100+ ton mech of the same TL, it
can take head on all the mechs in the book without even dodging a single
time. DR 4000L frontal armor can take prettymuch anything the lightweights
can throw at it (Even a small micronuke) and the rapid fire gauss cannon
can slice em up easily en masse.
> Am I doing something wrong, or is GURPS this leathel(sp)
> with armored ships??? I'm useing the Mecha in the book.
Cannot say if you are doing something wrong, because you did not give a
detailed example of a sample battle with rolls and all. In a 'realistic'
mecha game, battle is fast, furious and lethal. Once you get the missile
lock, target is almost certainly doomed.
But if you want to play with Space Opera style, player characters will
become very difficult to kill (Just slap a multiplier on mecha hit
points, something like x10), whereas the scrubs (Faceless NPC enemy
hordes) will be incredibly easy to shoot down (Poor skill levels, no
special rules to help em survive).
-Pauli
David M. Simpson
Oops, should have said battlesuits!!!
Oh, thanks for all the responces so far! 3 on the first day!
In article <Pine.GSO.3.96.971001203749.9316A-100000@rhea-atm> Pauli Hakala <fear...@otol.fi> writes:
>
>
> On 1 Oct 1997, David M. Simpson wrote:
>
> >
> > I'm trying to run a GURPS Mecha game, and so far,
> > every time I get them in a fight, the first hit kills!
>
> Elaborate a bit more. What weapon kills what? If you have equal mechs
> blasting it out (For example, the Seraph Delta mechs) - Any single hit
> will not often kill, but if they fire salvoes of missiles, the one getting
> hit is likely to get torn into shreds. Missiles pack a lot more power than
> a single laser blast, and if you fire a salvo.. Well..
I've been using mostly the 2 battle suits out of the book,
good guys get a Kamen Panzer (pg 73), Bad guys get a Vandal
(pg 74), or a made up "Car" base VERY loosely on the Deathstriker(pg 71)
From the other post, I see I'm not doing everything correctly.
Also, I've been giving them first shot, and with this stuff,
first shot is all you need.
I'd just like to see some limping good/bad guys instead of
dead ones!
> With modern aircraft fired anti-tank weapons, ....
Yes, I understand that part.
> > Am I doing something wrong, or is GURPS this leathel(sp)
> > with armored ships??? I'm useing the Mecha in the book.
>
> Cannot say if you are doing something wrong, because you did not give a
> detailed example of a sample battle with rolls and all. In a 'realistic'
> mecha game, battle is fast, furious and lethal.
They did get some GREAT rolls so far. Every time thay've hit
with missles, VERY high rolls.
> Once you get the missile
> lock, target is almost certainly doomed.
Oops, missles locks??????
> But if you want to play with Space Opera style, player characters will
> become very difficult to kill (Just slap a multiplier on mecha hit
> points, something like x10), whereas the scrubs (Faceless NPC enemy
> hordes) will be incredibly easy to shoot down (Poor skill levels, no
> special rules to help em survive).
May try a little of this. I still want them to think some of the time.
Pauli Hakala
On 2 Oct 1997, David M. Simpson wrote:
>
> Oops, should have said battlesuits!!!
Yes, no wonder you got me ranting off in the wrong direction. Battlesuits
and battlemechs are two different weight classes.
> Oh, thanks for all the responces so far! 3 on the first day!
Well, _sometimes_ the net works (I don't get all messages posted on this
NG. Dunno what is the reason for this, selective censorship or what. ;)
>
> In article <Pine.GSO.3.96.971001203749.9316A-100000@rhea-atm> Pauli Hakala <fear...@otol.fi> writes:
> >
> >
> > On 1 Oct 1997, David M. Simpson wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I'm trying to run a GURPS Mecha game, and so far,
> > > every time I get them in a fight, the first hit kills!
> >
> > Elaborate a bit more. What weapon kills what? If you have equal mechs
> > blasting it out (For example, the Seraph Delta mechs) - Any single hit
> > will not often kill, but if they fire salvoes of missiles, the one getting
> > hit is likely to get torn into shreds. Missiles pack a lot more power than
> > a single laser blast, and if you fire a salvo.. Well..
>
> I've been using mostly the 2 battle suits out of the book,
> good guys get a Kamen Panzer (pg 73), Bad guys get a Vandal
> (pg 74), or a made up "Car" base VERY loosely on the Deathstriker(pg 71)
> From the other post, I see I'm not doing everything correctly.
Well, simply put, Vandal is a more advanced design (TL10) and thus is
somewhat more powerful than the TL9 Kamen, but I would except that with
missile hit, neither is likely to hold together.
Anyhow, as GURPS sees it, battlesuits main defense will not be its DR or
hit points, but its maneuverability and PD (High total Dodge score, in
other words), as well as being able to take cover.. Do not get hit by a
missile while wearing less than one inch of armor..
>
> Also, I've been giving them first shot, and with this stuff,
> first shot is all you need.
Yes, but with high dodge score, you may be able to avoid a missile.
(Although PD wont help against explosions).. I would still prefer shooting
first.
One of the optional rules I have made up for GURPS is the
sequencing system: I have replaced the move-based system with partially
random system, in which the combat reflexes also help considerably to
react faster.. In other words, I base the Init score on doubled basic
speed and add 2 for combat reflexes, if any. Each time the Init needs to
be found out, each player rolls one die and adds this to the Init base.
Highest score goes first, then the second highest and so on.
>
> I'd just like to see some limping good/bad guys instead of
> dead ones!
So, go ahead and just reduce the damage scores the missiles do, or make
them do 'stun' damage to living beings. You can tune down the lethality,
albeit not without losing some realism, but you can do almost anything in
a cinematic or cartoonish game to make it 'cool'.
>
>
> > With modern aircraft fired anti-tank weapons, ....
>
> Yes, I understand that part.
>
>
> > > Am I doing something wrong, or is GURPS this leathel(sp)
> > > with armored ships??? I'm useing the Mecha in the book.
> >
> > Cannot say if you are doing something wrong, because you did not give a
> > detailed example of a sample battle with rolls and all. In a 'realistic'
> > mecha game, battle is fast, furious and lethal.
>
> They did get some GREAT rolls so far. Every time thay've hit
> with missles, VERY high rolls.
So that is just plain old luck. (Or could they be cheating.. ;)
No, battlesuits are really easy to kill with missiles, especially with
high explosive anti-tank missiles.. This is realistic.
>
>
> > Once you get the missile
> > lock, target is almost certainly doomed.
>
> Oops, missles locks??????
IIRC, you cannot fire snap-shots with guided missiles, but you have to
take the 'aim' maneuver before firing them.. If the target disappears
behind a building or something before you can get the aim, no lock, no
firing missiles, unless the missiles are 'smart'.
>
> > But if you want to play with Space Opera style, player characters will
> > become very difficult to kill (Just slap a multiplier on mecha hit
> > points, something like x10), whereas the scrubs (Faceless NPC enemy
> > hordes) will be incredibly easy to shoot down (Poor skill levels, no
> > special rules to help em survive).
>
> May try a little of this. I still want them to think some of the time.
Increase the hitpoints of major NPCs by similar amount as well.. Then have
bunch of major NPCs stalk the PCs..
-Pauli
pulver
One error I noticed in Mecha (this has been passed on to the authorities
for errata) is that mecha specifies a roll vs. the missile's Skill for it
to avoid being destroyed by a decoy (Decoys, p. 54). Actually this should
be the missile's skill MINUS THE TL OF THE DECOY, as in GURPS Vehicles.
The difference is rather extreme, and greatly reduces the lethality of
missiles against flare-equipped mecha.
Xiphias Gladius
dsim...@Simpson.iquest.net (David M. Simpson) writes:
>Also, I've been giving them first shot, and with this stuff,
>first shot is all you need.
>I'd just like to see some limping good/bad guys instead of
>dead ones!
You've been *giving* somebody first shot?
In my experience, in modern and futuristic games, as well as games with a
fair bit of magic, getting first shot is the whole point.
I mean, in a massed field battle that is primarily hand-to-hand, it's not
quite as important to get the drop on your opponents. But once repeating
firearms are introduced, the whole point becomes setting up ambushes.
In the combat situations I've run, the point is to get tactical advantage
by figuring out where your opponent is without letting him know where you
are. Then you take out your sniper rifles and wipe out the entire enemy
patrol in one or two seconds.
I've always felt that, if you find yourself in a fair fight, you've
screwed up. The challenge becomes, not being able to win a fair fight,
but controlling the entire situation so that it is unfair in your favor.
Lis mentioned a game she was in where five of them wiped out an army. The
army never even knew they were there. See, it's not *easy* to make stuff
unfair in your favor -- but the point is, the difficult part happens
*before* the shooting starts. Once the first shot is fired, you just
follow the plan you've laid out, and that's the easy part. The difficult
part is gathering information, planning, and getting your forces into the
right places at the right time.
Now, some situations that I've ran have been a little different. I
started a one-on-one situation by saying, "You've been ambushed. A sniper
just wiped out the rest of your patrol, but you've just managed to get
under cover. You didn't see where the shots were coming from; all you
know is the sniper is somewhere on the map. And he's as much of a
professional as you are. What do you do?"
But even in that situation, the trick was to change the situation so
that the sniper lost track of the PC.
Remember, Stealth (or its technological, magical, or psionic equivalents),
Camoflague, and Tactics are as or more important than your weapons skills.
The best defense is having your opponents not shooting. The next best
defense is having them shoot somewhere where you're not. Armor is a poor
third.
- Ian
Ray Cochener
Had an amusing variation on this- magical lcanthropic (snake) ninja
type who was TL:3 was staying at an inn in a TL:6 town. Durring the
night someone who had reason to eliminate him burst into his room with
an automatic shotgun (a device created specificly to deal with the
invisible assasins, since you didn't have to see them to shoot them,
just have a vague idea where they were.)
Round one the door comes flying open, the guy pulls the trigger, and
the gun jams. Mr. Ninja (who was, BTW, a lousy roleplayer as well)
changes into his snake form- still lying in bed.
Round two the guy unjams the gun, unloads two bursts into the still
visible snake-man and the gun jams again (the NPC was getting lousy dice
rolls). Mr. Snake grabs his sword and charges- still visible.
Round three the guy unloads a full four bursts into Mr. Snake when Mr.
Snake's TL:9 friend blows the guy's leg off with a sonic hand-cannon.
Never once did it occur to the guy to roll off his bed and use
invisibility art... at that point the guy would have had to spread the
room with a single shotgun round per hex, which he could have shrugged
off long enough to kill the would-be murderer. Instead they both wound
up in the hospital with magical healing...
Archer
>
> Had an amusing variation on this- magical lcanthropic (snake) ninja
>type who was TL:3 was staying at an inn in a TL:6 town. Durring the
>night someone who had reason to eliminate him burst into his room with
>an automatic shotgun (a device created specificly to deal with the
>invisible assasins, since you didn't have to see them to shoot them,
>just have a vague idea where they were.)
> Round one the door comes flying open, the guy pulls the trigger, and
>the gun jams. Mr. Ninja (who was, BTW, a lousy roleplayer as well)
>changes into his snake form- still lying in bed.
> Round two the guy unjams the gun, unloads two bursts into the still
>visible snake-man and the gun jams again (the NPC was getting lousy dice
>rolls). Mr. Snake grabs his sword and charges- still visible.
> Round three the guy unloads a full four bursts into Mr. Snake when Mr.
>Snake's TL:9 friend blows the guy's leg off with a sonic hand-cannon.
> Never once did it occur to the guy to roll off his bed and use
>invisibility art... at that point the guy would have had to spread the
>room with a single shotgun round per hex, which he could have shrugged
>off long enough to kill the would-be murderer. Instead they both wound
>up in the hospital with magical healing...
Should have killed the lamer, oops, you died of cardiac arrest at the
hospital. The doctor (much like you) was too stupid to use the right skill
to save your life.