GURPS: Space 1889
Frank Frey (SOK)
I'm currently running a Gurps Space:1889 campaign and would like to know
if anyone else in this group has and what kind of success have you had
with it?
Frank Frey
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad!"
Salvador Dali
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Kitarak
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Kitarak
Blood Feeds Blood,
Blood Calls Blood,
Blood is, and Blood was, and Blood shall ever be.
-Dark Prophecy
(The Wheel of Time, The Great Hunt)
Tim Hall
>What is GURPS Space 1889? I keep on hearing about it.
AFAIK, there isn't such a book (yet). When GDW folded, there was some
talk of SJG acquiring the licence, but I don't think anything became
of it.
There are S:1889 -> GURPS conversion on the net, though.
Tim Hall, timjh (at) csi.com
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/timjh/kalyr.htm
Kitarak
>
>AFAIK, there isn't such a book (yet). When GDW folded, there was some
>talk of SJG acquiring the licence, but I don't think anything became
>of it.
>
>There are S:1889 -> GURPS conversion on the net, though.
>
OK. What is space 1889 then.
Tim Hall
>OK. What is space 1889 then.
The original steampunk RPG, based on the late victorian science
fiction of Jules Verne, HG Wells & co. Features the British Empire on
Mars, German zeppellins and dinosaurs on Venus, and the main villains
are the Belgians. It covers some of the same territory as Castle
Falkenstein, but without the magic and faeries; on the whole it's
rather more coherent.
Great setting, somewhat naff game system, therefore a good candidate
for a GURPS conversion.
It's been out of print for many years now, I bought a copy secondhand
a few years back.
Kitarak
Next question. Whats a steampunk RPG
>fiction of Jules Verne, HG Wells & co. Features the British Empire on
>Mars, German zeppellins and dinosaurs on Venus, and the main villains
>are the Belgians.
Eh? How do they get there?
It covers some of the same territory as Castle
>Falkenstein, but without the magic and faeries; on the whole it's
>rather more coherent.
Whats castle Falkenstein?
Tim Hall
>Next question. Whats a steampunk RPG
I described it below :)
You could also look at
http://www.heliograph.com/space-1889/index.html
>>fiction of Jules Verne, HG Wells & co. Features the British Empire on
>>Mars, German zeppellins and dinosaurs on Venus, and the main villains
>>are the Belgians.
>Eh? How do they get there?
In victorian-style spaceships, of course
>Whats castle Falkenstein?
Look at http://www.best.com/~rtg1/falk.html , the official RTG web
pages.
William H. Stoddard
(Tim Hall) wrote:
> On 5 Sep 1998 23:05:27 GMT, kit...@aol.com (Kitarak) wrote:
>
> >Eh? How do they get there?
>
> In victorian-style spaceships, of course
>
Or, in a bit more detail, a craft with a sealed hull is lifted to the
upper edge of the atmosphere by either hydrogen balloons or liftwood (an
exotic substance, discovered on Mars, that screens against gravitation).
Then huge mirrors are used to focus sunlight onto a water container to
generate steam that powers a generator that powers an etheric propulsion,
carefully not described in detail. The science is thoroughly unrealistic
but there's a lovely period feel to the technology--and to the
planetology, with an ancient and decadent Mars and a dinosaur-inhabited
hot swampy Venus.
--
William H. Stoddard whs...@primenet.net
You'll be sure to find him resting, or a-licking of his thumbs,
Or engaged in doing complicated long division sums.
(T. S. Eliot, "Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats")
Tom Vallejos
>
> >The original steampunk RPG, based on the late victorian science
>
>
> >Mars, German zeppellins and dinosaurs on Venus, and the main villains
> >are the Belgians.
>
>
> >Falkenstein, but without the magic and faeries; on the whole it's
> >rather more coherent.
>
> Whats castle Falkenstein?
>
Castle Falkenstein is a RPG set in an alternate 19th century Earth where
magic exists as well as mythical creatures, dwarves, faeries etc.
BTW: There is a real Castle Falkenstein. It was built by a king of
Bavaria in the 19th century. (Can't remember the name!) He wanted the
stories of fantasy to become real. One day he was taken away to an
insane asylum.
Steampunk is a genre similar to cyberpunk except it takes place in a
quasi-19th century setting and the characters are more in keeping with
Victorian and Jules Verne-like viewpoints.
--
Tom Vallejos
to email me remove "nospam" from address
email: flying...@nospamearthlink.net
"Listen, just because you can see them and their blinds are open, it's
not to be taken as an invitation. It's unethical. It's also against
the law. Aside from which you'll go blind."
(Fraser, to Diefenbaker, who is looking out the hospital windows.)
Jason Corley
: BTW: There is a real Castle Falkenstein. It was built by a king of
: Bavaria in the 19th century. (Can't remember the name!) He wanted the
: stories of fantasy to become real. One day he was taken away to an
: insane asylum.
That would be Mad Ludwig.
--
******************************************************************************
"History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have
exhausted all other alternatives." -----Abba Eban
Jason "cor...@chronic.lpl.arizona.edu" Corley can't come to the phone
Tom Vallejos
Incanus
> BTW: There is a real Castle Falkenstein. It was built by a king of
> Bavaria in the 19th century. (Can't remember the name!) He wanted the
> stories of fantasy to become real. One day he was taken away to an
> insane asylum.
That's Neuschwanstein, not Falkenstein. The king was Ludwig of Bavaria.
--
Incanus: inc...@bigfoot.com
Personal Web page: http://incanus.home.ml.org
Rare GURPS Items: http://incanus.home.ml.org/gurps/
Clemens Meier
Hello!
cor...@chronic.lpl.arizona.edu (Jason Corley) writes:
> Tom Vallejos (flying...@nospamearthlink.net) wrote:
>
> : BTW: There is a real Castle Falkenstein. It was built by a king of
> : Bavaria in the 19th century. (Can't remember the name!) He wanted the
> : stories of fantasy to become real. One day he was taken away to an
> : insane asylum.
>
> That would be Mad Ludwig.
Wasn't Mad Ludwig the one who built castle Neuschwanstein
(Hollywood gothic castle, as Phil Barker would say) and later
drowned?
In those days, you couldn't just put your By--Grace--of--God
ruler in an insane asylum. IIRC, the Bavarian court carefully
shielded him from the world, or the world from him, whatever.
CU
Clemens
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When there is useful information which [your] clm...@lili.uni-bielefeld.de
program can send to the terminal but not get Clemens Meier
at itself, your customers start to say very GO C++ 3$ UL L+>+++ E++>+++ P-
unkindly things about you. R.A.O'Keefe N++ R+>+++ G'''' b++ TWERPS+++
Pete Hardie
> BTW: There is a real Castle Falkenstein. It was built by a king of
> Bavaria in the 19th century. (Can't remember the name!) He wanted the
> stories of fantasy to become real. One day he was taken away to an
> insane asylum.
King Ludwig the <mumble>.
He built Castle Neuschwanstein, the white 'Cinderella' castle in all
the postcards, as well as several others. Is there an online picture
of this Castle Falkenstein?
Pete
William H. Stoddard
<clm...@lili8.lili.uni-bielefeld.de> wrote:
>
> Wasn't Mad Ludwig the one who built castle Neuschwanstein
> (Hollywood gothic castle, as Phil Barker would say) and later
> drowned?
>
> In those days, you couldn't just put your By--Grace--of--God
> ruler in an insane asylum. IIRC, the Bavarian court carefully
> shielded him from the world, or the world from him, whatever.
>
him. I'd bet she was a lot of help. She could be a good real-world
prototype for the Space 1889 Adventuress profession.
Belldandy
Mark Barltrop
<ffre...@luna.cas.usf.edu> wrote:
>Greetings,
>
>I'm currently running a Gurps Space:1889 campaign and would like to know
>if anyone else in this group has and what kind of success have you had
>with it?
>
Ran a couple of adventures it a few years back. Worked fine, didn't
need lots of GURPS supplements, just High-Tech - which was v useful
for the equipment & Horror - which was marginally useful for jobs &
prices. I think I also used Cthulu by Gaslight - for its map of London
amongst other things IIRC. Only problems I recall was how to handle
Inventions - don't think the campaign lasted long enough for that to
be a real issue - & when I started thinking logically about Ether
Flyers I started having real problems getting sensible answers.
Mark Barltrop (tac...@writeme.com)
ICQ Pager - http://wwp.mirabilis.com/13415498
'What is it?'
'Its a wolf!'
'In a city? What does it find to eat?'
'Oh, why did you have to ask that?'
(Terry Pratchett,'Feet of Clay')
COMMANDE
>
> On 5 Sep 1998 21:10:10 GMT, kit...@aol.com (Kitarak) wrote:
>
> >OK. What is space 1889 then.
>
> Mars, German zeppellins and dinosaurs on Venus, and the main villains
> Falkenstein, but without the magic and faeries; on the whole it's
> rather more coherent.
>
Clemens Meier
Hello!
COMMANDE <n...@way.com> writes:
They aren't. The Belgians are universally despised for their
conduct (as harsh and brutal as in the Kongo territories on
Earth), but they aren't sufficiently strong to threaten the
English hold on Mars.
So while in the Space 1889 main rules the Belgians and Germans
battle for the honor of Chief Bogeyman, in subsequent publica-
tions the Teuton threat becomes more pronounced.
Of course, there are exceptions, e.g. the excellently tolerant
article on German player characters in TRMGS.
Speaking of Germans, after reading Barbara Tuchman's /The Proud
Tower/ (1890--1914 period) and /Guns of August/ (start of WWI),
I have come to the conclusion that Joe Average German must have
been quite a nuisance for his neighbour, even when counting out
Tuchman's Anti--Germanisms.
William H. Stoddard
> >
> Why are the Belgians the main villians? Why not Imperial Germany?
Oh, the Germans are there too. But the Belgians make good sense; in that
period Leopold had a thoroughly ugly reputation for his subjugation of the
Congo. "Listen to the yell of Leopold's ghost/Burning in hell for his
hand-maimed host," as Vachel Lindsay wrote a couple of decades later,
referring to the treatment of rebellious blacks by Leopold's hired
mercenaries.
Goldman of Chaos
: Tim Hall wrote:
: >
: > On 5 Sep 1998 21:10:10 GMT, kit...@aol.com (Kitarak) wrote:
: >
: > >OK. What is space 1889 then.
: >
: > The original steampunk RPG, based on the late victorian science
: > fiction of Jules Verne, HG Wells & co. Features the British Empire on
: > Mars, German zeppellins and dinosaurs on Venus, and the main villains
: > are the Belgians. It covers some of the same territory as Castle
: > Falkenstein, but without the magic and faeries; on the whole it's
: > rather more coherent.
: Why are the Belgians the main villians? Why not Imperial Germany?
Because in that time period the Belgians *were* the bad guys?
Matt
--
O O __ | \| O O
/|\ -/- _ __\ O _\O |/ (/ O/ /\- /|\
/ \ / ) / \ | /O _ O/_ _ O_ ^_ / \^_ )\ / \
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew Goldman E-mail: gol...@visi.com
My day today? Nothing major, just Xenon base gone, Scorpio gone,
Tarrant dead, Tarrant alive and then I found out Blake sold us out.
john
The British were in the saddle since Waterloo and didn't want to share.
Naturally, the Germans resented it.
The problem with presenting the Germans as villains was that things were fine
in 1889 between Germany and England. It was only the dreadnaught race in this
century where things heated up.
I too played a Gurps Space 1889 campaign, always hoping that SJGs would
lease it from Chadwick. My hopes have been renewed now that they got Traveller.
BTW, what is Chadwick doing lately?
--
John P.
Montreal.
----
COMMANDE
>
> Oh, I don't think Imperial Germans were as much a nuisance as people thought.
Agreed but they were more of one than the Belgians who other than the
Kongo had no other colonies(IIRC) and a small military.
Mean while the Germans had global infleunce, colonies, and a
world-class military.
> The British were in the saddle since Waterloo and didn't want to share.
> Naturally, the Germans resented it.
Ofcourse and after the Franco-Prussian war were a united Germany
slapped France and in the early 1870s the Japanese Army recieved
advisers from Germany. The Germans obviously were interested in
increasing their infleuance in the Pacific(A region at this time under
British and Russian domination). Britian countered by training the
Japanese Navy.
>
> The problem with presenting the Germans as villains was that things were fine
> in 1889 between Germany and England.
See above example
> It was only the dreadnaught race in this
> century where things heated up.
Aren't the Germans the main villians in Haggard's works too? Just
because things hadn't "heated up" doesn't mean that the tell tale signs
werent there. For Example, after the Russo-Japanese war Americans became
more and more fearful that there next war would be with Japan. Many
works of the time disscused it (Hemmingway for example).
Comments please.
JRebori682
>I too played a Gurps Space 1889 campaign, always hoping that SJGs would
>lease it from Chadwick. My hopes have been renewed now that they got
>Traveller.
>
>BTW, what is Chadwick doing lately?
I believe he's working on a rewrite of Soldiers Companion, the miniature rules
for Space 1889, but leaving out all the Sci Fi features.
JRebo...@aol.com <John Rebori>
Don't think of it as being outnumbered,
think of it as having a wide target selection.
john
> Ofcourse and after the Franco-Prussian war were a united Germany
>slapped France and in the early 1870s the Japanese Army recieved
>advisers from Germany. The Germans obviously were interested in
>increasing their infleuance in the Pacific(A region at this time under
>British and Russian domination). Britian countered by training the
>Japanese Navy.
>
The German historian Fritz Fischer argued that Germany wanted MittelEuropa
and Mittel Afrika (i.e. to control Europe and middle Africa) and started WWI
as a means to achieve it.
I'm not sure, though, about the Pacific. It was Kaiser Wilhelm who, I believe,
coined the term the Yellow Peril.
--
John P.
sp...@total.net
Montreal.
----
Thin Lines
>
> john wrote:
> > The British were in the saddle since Waterloo and didn't want to share.
> > Naturally, the Germans resented it.
>
> slapped France and in the early 1870s the Japanese Army recieved
> advisers from Germany. The Germans obviously were interested in
> increasing their infleuance in the Pacific(A region at this time under
> British and Russian domination). Britian countered by training the
> Japanese Navy.
> >
> > in 1889 between Germany and England.
>
> See above example
Actually, things were fairly OK between Germany and England at the turn
of the century...
From "Europe in the 20th Century, 4th Edition" by Roland N. Stromberg:
'Queen Victoria, of German extraction and the grandmother of German
Emperor Wilhelm II, had been notably pro-German and anti-Russian. In
1899, prominent British politician Joseph Chamberlain, a leading figure
in the government, declared that "the most natural alliance is that
between us and the German Empire." In 1900-1901, Britain almost
concluded a formal treaty with Germany. The negotiations miscarried,
leaving some mistrust on both sides.'
It was mainly the naval arms race that later soured relations between
Britain and Germany, and Britain's desire for a balance of power on the
Continent, which led it to ally with weaker France against stronger
Germany.
(I knew that class on 20th Century European history would come in use
some time...)
-T.L.(ME)
thin...@earthlink.net
Thin Lines
>
> > Ofcourse and after the Franco-Prussian war were a united Germany
> >slapped France and in the early 1870s the Japanese Army recieved
> >advisers from Germany. The Germans obviously were interested in
> >increasing their infleuance in the Pacific(A region at this time under
> >British and Russian domination). Britian countered by training the
> >Japanese Navy.
> >
>
> The German historian Fritz Fischer argued that Germany wanted MittelEuropa
> and Mittel Afrika (i.e. to control Europe and middle Africa) and started WWI
> as a means to achieve it.
Most historians do not agree with Herr Fischer. Germany did not want war
in 1914 in any deliberate sense. Their main reason for declaring war was
fear of being squeezed between the allied Powers of France and Russia.
They were mainly acting out of a frightened self-defense. On the eve of
the Great War, Emperor Wilhelm told American emissary Colonel E.M. House
that "every nation in Europe has its bayonets pointed at Germany."
- from Europe in the 20th Century, Roland Stromberg
> I'm not sure, though, about the Pacific. It was Kaiser Wilhelm who, I believe,
> coined the term the Yellow Peril.
I don't know if he coined the term, but he definitely liked using it...
> --
> John P.
> sp...@total.net
> Montreal.
> ----
-T.L.(ME)
thin...@earthlink.net
Clemens Meier
Hello!
Thin Lines <thin...@earthlink.net> writes:
> Germany did not want war
> in 1914 in any deliberate sense.
Nobody in Europe wanted war in any deliberate sense (setting
aside small punitive expeditions against upstart Balkan
countries). But on the other hand, nobody really objected to
war in any deliberate sense, either, since every nation had
some open questions to settle, everybody knew there was a war
coming up soon and that, due to modern military weapons and
tactics, it was bound to last only a few months. So why not
just get done with it right now?
Rev. Keith Johnson
> Kitarak wrote:
> >
> > >The original steampunk RPG, based on the late victorian science
> >
> > Next question. Whats a steampunk RPG
>
>
> Steampunk is a genre similar to cyberpunk except it takes place in a
> quasi-19th century setting and the characters are more in keeping with
> Victorian and Jules Verne-like viewpoints.
Tom,
Bringing up cyberpunk just confuses the issue. From what I can gather from
the following posts:
Steampunk = Victorian era settings, 19th century "future science"
(steamships in space, Dinosaurs on Venus and anti-gravity wood on Mars), with
generous portions of Jules Verne for flavor.
Cyberpunk = Gritty "High Tech/Low Life" feel, where machinery is worth more
than human life, governments and corporations don't even to pretend to value
ethics over money, ecological disasters and the "sprawl-ification" of the
world, technology developing faster than our ability to understand the
ramifications of it, and the numbing of the average-man-on-the-street's sense
of ethics, compassion, and equality. This genre has generous portions of
William Gibson for flavor.
The above genre's don't even seem to be in the same ballpark. Now, I don't
mean to slam "Steampunk" or your favorite game, but I hear Steampunk tossed
about enough, that I _assume_ that there is a logical reason for the name of
the genre. Why not "Future Victorian" or "Victorian/Sci-Fi", or "Steamship
Sci-Fi"? Steampunk, as far as I know it right now, sounds even worse than
"Gothic Punk" in comparison to Cyberpunk. I can see the Gothic and the Punk
themes in Vampire (kinda). I can also see the Cyber and Punk themes in most
near-future games.
I doubt it because I missed the cool new trend to run a "punk" game.
Fantasypunk? After the Bombpunk? Conspiracypunk? Travellerpunk?
I guess my blathering boils down to this: "What does the punk in Steampunk
mean?"
On another note, how many of you Steampunker's feel that Post-Steampunk
lends itself for a Gernsback style game? I can see a tacking on what you are
describing for Steampunk as the "prehistory" for Gernsback in GURPS:
Alternate Earths. Food for thought.
Don't mention Gernsbackpunk or I'll scream. :)
=================================
Rev. Keith Johnson
kejo...@ucdavis.edu
http://www.2xtreme.net/rarhoten/keith/thoughts/
delph...@geocities.com
I seem to remember a long, rambling thread(on r.g.f.cyber?) trying to
figure that out. We ended up just quoting opinions at each other and
producing funny -punk words("fairypunk", "westernpunk", "punkpunk").
Actually, I think the -punk words was the best part...
- Dare "Just grin and Dare it!"
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Michael C. Martin
>Bringing up cyberpunk just confuses the issue. From what I can gather from
>the following posts:
>Steampunk = Victorian era settings, 19th century "future science"
>(steamships in space, Dinosaurs on Venus and anti-gravity wood on Mars), with
>generous portions of Jules Verne for flavor.
Steampunk often has Dickensian aspects as well.
>Cyberpunk = Gritty "High Tech/Low Life" feel, where machinery is worth more
>than human life, governments and corporations don't even to pretend to value
>ethics over money, ecological disasters and the "sprawl-ification" of the
>world, technology developing faster than our ability to understand the
>ramifications of it, and the numbing of the average-man-on-the-street's sense
>of ethics, compassion, and equality. This genre has generous portions of
>William Gibson for flavor.
Note the Dickensian aspects here as well.
>I hear Steampunk tossed
>about enough, that I _assume_ that there is a logical reason for the name of
>the genre.
I believe it is because the first steampunk books were written by
Gibson and Sterling after cyberpunk hit it big on the shlock market.
>Steampunk, as far as I know it right now, sounds even worse than
>"Gothic Punk" in comparison to Cyberpunk. I can see the Gothic and the Punk
>themes in Vampire (kinda). I can also see the Cyber and Punk themes in most
>near-future games.
Not as bad as Goth-Punk which as I understand it is sort of "like
cyberpunk, but the machinery is worthless too."
>I doubt it because I missed the cool new trend to run a "punk" game.
>Fantasypunk? After the Bombpunk? Conspiracypunk? Travellerpunk?
... Don't forget Cthulhupunk, which you have to let in because it just
sounds so cool. And hey, how about Illuminatipunk while we're at it?
>I guess my blathering boils down to this: "What does the punk in Steampunk
>mean?"
I'd put it like this.
<PONTIFICATION>
A genre or game may call itself 'XYZ-punk' if:
- XYZ is a recognizable way of characterizing the setting.
- Life is cheap. This varies; the only real constant should be that
resources (especially if XYZ describes this resource) should be much
more valuable and important than the lives of most of humanity.
- Tremendous difference between the haves and have-nots. This doesn't
necessarily mean that the have-nots are poor (see specific examples
below). It's just that the *relative* difference needs to be huge.
- The characters should generally be have-nots with some way of
getting their hands on the key resources, which will drive either
chargen (for cyber-punk, this is your street samurai) or play itself
(this is your hacker).
</PONTIFICATION>
Some specific examples of this follow.
Nanopunk: Nanotechnology is the driving technology here. With
nanofacs on every street corner, almost any TL6 item can be had for
almost nothing. Even the lowest of street scum can easily beg enough
for a warm coat and can eat fairly well. Neal Stephenson's
_The_Diamond_Age_ is likely the definitive work here, and suggests a
basic plot: some street urchin accidentally gets hold of an incredibly
powerful artifact, and various powerful groups try to take it from
her.
Biopunk: I'm the only person I know of who has used this term. The
only examples of it were from some science fiction magazine short
stories (Asimov's, sometime in 1997; I believe one was called
"Scorpion's Kiss.") Not very gamable IMHO because tailored
hunter-killer viruses are among the *nicest* things you can do to kill
somebody, and all you need for that is a sample of their dandruff...
It's just too lethal. The powerful will just have no living enemies
less powerful than they, and past a certain threshold everyone's DNA
is Top Secret. Burning dandruff and fingernails and the like.
Fantasypunk: Replace computer hardware with magical power. Maybe it
has to be harvested from human beings. Who better than the peasants?
As long as it isn't the wizards themselves... characters might be
lesser wizards, or maybe non-wizards with inherent magical knacks or
other such things that the Powers That Be would dearly like to
study... (This is largely from one of the rec.games.frp groups...
maybe even this one. Can't recall...)
In any case. Here's one man's opinion for you.
PS: Relax. Gernsbackpunk and Campbellpunk are both contradictions in
terms.
---
Michael Martin: mcma...@uclink4.berkeley.edu
http://www-inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/~mcmartin/
"Trouble is synonymous with being a metabolizing entity."
--The Niss Machine, "Infinity's Shore"
Robert Kelk
<snip>
> I seem to remember a long, rambling thread(on r.g.f.cyber?) trying to
> figure that out. We ended up just quoting opinions at each other and
> producing funny -punk words("fairypunk", "westernpunk", "punkpunk").
> Actually, I think the -punk words was the best part...
No, I think that was here. I remember contributing to that thread, if
not starting it accidently, and I don't read r.g.f.cyber.
("Politicspunk", anyone? 8-) )
--
Robert Kelk
robert {dot} kelk {at} pemail {dot} net
Gregory Loren Hansen
Rev. Keith Johnson <kejo...@ucdavis.edu> wrote:
>Steampunk = Victorian era settings, 19th century "future science"
>(steamships in space, Dinosaurs on Venus and anti-gravity wood on Mars), with
>generous portions of Jules Verne for flavor.
>
>Cyberpunk = Gritty "High Tech/Low Life" feel, where machinery is worth more
>than human life, governments and corporations don't even to pretend to value
>ethics over money, ecological disasters and the "sprawl-ification" of the
>world, technology developing faster than our ability to understand the
>ramifications of it, and the numbing of the average-man-on-the-street's sense
>of ethics, compassion, and equality. This genre has generous portions of
>William Gibson for flavor.
>
>
>The above genre's don't even seem to be in the same ballpark. Now, I don't
Hmm...
"See, this is what I'm talking about. We have a Maxwellian distribution
here, so..."
"Dude, just hold it! What you're talking about is way faster than the
relaxation time at these params. You're non-Maxwellian here, your entropy
will shoot way up and you have some serious wave action to deal with,
maybe even a damaging resonance."
"Non-Maxwellian? Come on, man."
"Hey, whose thermodynamics are the best?"
"Uh, yours. You know that."
"Right, that's why you came to me. I know what I'm doing, just trust me.
What I need from you is fifty kilos of water gas and the metal bellows.
Weld them yourself if you need to. And try to score the latest steam
tables. I'm not allowed on the campus any more, and I don't like to be
out of date."
--
"It doesn't matter if you have a beard on the outside. It's the beard on
the inside that counts." -- Action Hank
Thin Lines
> Thin Lines <thin...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
> > Germany did not want war
> > in 1914 in any deliberate sense.
>
> Nobody in Europe wanted war in any deliberate sense (setting
> aside small punitive expeditions against upstart Balkan
> countries). But on the other hand, nobody really objected to
> war in any deliberate sense, either, since every nation had
> some open questions to settle, everybody knew there was a war
> coming up soon and that, due to modern military weapons and
> tactics, it was bound to last only a few months. So why not
> just get done with it right now?
>
> CU
>
> Clemens
Exactly. They didn't realize that by using modern weapons with outdated,
19th century tactics they were getting themselves into a war that killed
an unprecedented number of people, and one that would stalemate for over
4 years. The horrifying nature of the Great War has scarred Europe ever
since.
-T.L.(ME)
thin...@earthlink.net
Joseph Michael Bay
>The name 'steampunk' arises (IMHO) from _The Difference Engine_, _In the
>Country of the Blind_,
>and others, that present a dystopian view of the world, had all the
>nifty scientific
>advances happened.
I don't know that _TDE_ was really that dystopian. I mean, the Radicals
were a bit better than the *real* government of England at that time, and
also they prevented the Famine of 1847 in Ireland. They handled the
Industrial Revolution better than the real world did, IMHO.
--
"Nec verbum verbo curabis reddere fidus interpres." remove address to email.
Literal, schmitteral. Stanford Department of
"Amoto quaeramus ludi seriis." Forensic Phrenology
Serious matters aside, let us turn to joking. www.stanford.edu/~jmbay
ewe...@my-dejanews.com
mcma...@uclink4.berkeley.edu wrote:
My gaming group has come up with one recently;
cyber-pkunk (for anyone whose played Star
Control 2) The PCs are cyber-enhanced religious
birds who "might" come back when they dies....
<G>
-Ed
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Xiphias Gladius
>delph...@geocities.com wrote:
><snip>
>> I seem to remember a long, rambling thread(on r.g.f.cyber?) trying to
>> figure that out. We ended up just quoting opinions at each other and
>> producing funny -punk words("fairypunk", "westernpunk", "punkpunk").
>> Actually, I think the -punk words was the best part...
>No, I think that was here. I remember contributing to that thread, if
>not starting it accidently, and I don't read r.g.f.cyber.
>("Politicspunk", anyone? 8-) )
That's what Clinton is in trouble for with that dress. Politic spunk.
- Ian. I'm sorry, I couldn't help myself.
--
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ian
SSBB Diplomatic Corps; Boston, Massachusetts
Pete Hardie
> Bringing up cyberpunk just confuses the issue. From what I can gather from
> the following posts:
>
> (steamships in space, Dinosaurs on Venus and anti-gravity wood on Mars), with
> generous portions of Jules Verne for flavor.
>
> Cyberpunk = Gritty "High Tech/Low Life" feel, where machinery is worth more
> than human life, governments and corporations don't even to pretend to value
> ethics over money, ecological disasters and the "sprawl-ification" of the
> world, technology developing faster than our ability to understand the
> ramifications of it, and the numbing of the average-man-on-the-street's sense
> of ethics, compassion, and equality. This genre has generous portions of
> William Gibson for flavor.
>
> The above genre's don't even seem to be in the same ballpark.
The name 'steampunk' arises (IMHO) from _The Difference Engine_, _In the
Country of the Blind_,
and others, that present a dystopian view of the world, had all the
nifty scientific
advances happened. There was a strong Social Engineering/Eugenics
movement then - suppose
they had been able to use large linear equation systems for their
plans? Ditto the
Colonial Powers - given the ability to mass-produce even better?
Pete
Kitarak
>has to be harvested from human beings. Who better than the peasants?
>As long as it isn't the wizards themselves... characters might be
>lesser wizards, or maybe non-wizards with inherent magical knacks or
>other such things that the Powers That Be would dearly like to
>study... (This is largely from one of the rec.games.frp groups...
>maybe even this one. Can't recall...)
Ummm. I think my 'New Spells' From MtG would qualify for this kind of world.
Maybe no summoning and only allowing creatures to be tagged or had mana drawn
from them. Wizard lords would get collosal energy (OK. My Country has a
population of 4 Million. Every person has about 20 points of power I can
draw......)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Kitarak
Blood Feeds Blood,
Blood Calls Blood,
Blood is, and Blood was, and Blood shall ever be.
-Dark Prophecy
(The Wheel of Time, The Great Hunt)
Kitarak
>The name 'steampunk' arises (IMHO) from _The Difference Engine_, _In the
>Country of the Blind_,
>and others, that present a dystopian view of the world, had all the
>nifty scientific
>advances happened.
What's a Difference Engine?
Sakura
Michael C. Martin <mcma...@uclink4.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>Biopunk: I'm the only person I know of who has used this term. The
>only examples of it were from some science fiction magazine short
>stories (Asimov's, sometime in 1997; I believe one was called
>"Scorpion's Kiss.")
In an odd sort of way, the movie 'Gattaca' fits well into this category
also. It doesn't have as much of the 'life is cheap' *punk attitude, but
the world certainly has the idea that your genetics are more important
than you, there's a big difference between the genetically fit and the
'in-valids', and the main character is a have-not who pretends to be a
have, thereby fulfilling all of your criteria.
J
--
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - je...@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Ben
Michael Bay) wrote:
>Pete Hardie <pe...@avana.net> writes:
>
>>The name 'steampunk' arises (IMHO) from _The Difference Engine_, _In the
>>Country of the Blind_,
>>and others, that present a dystopian view of the world, had all the
>>nifty scientific
>>advances happened.
That is one of the cool features of steam-punk vs actually reading old
Verne and the like, although if you actually read 'Paris in the 20th
Century' (the lost Verne novel that was in effect placed in a time
capsule and opened near the end of the 20th century) you might well
decide that Verne had started writing steam punk. Most steam punk
also tends to be gritty and, well, punk like.
>I don't know that _TDE_ was really that dystopian. I mean, the Radicals
>were a bit better than the *real* government of England at that time, and
>also they prevented the Famine of 1847 in Ireland. They handled the
>Industrial Revolution better than the real world did, IMHO.
Yeah, but I don't know if Neuromancer was really that dystopian. I
mean the economy seemed to be going pretty good, people had access to
information and technology, there weren't any thought police
monitoring what you could do or say. There didn't seem to be famines
effecting the world. World war 3 was over, and human civilization had
survived. Yet still, most people who read it find it dystopian,
because it is a soulless world for humans to live in (artificial
intelligences achieve transcendence though), and because it is a world
without nature. In the readers imagination, both steam punk, and
cyberpunk worlds seem to be like the worlds you live in when your
living in an area zoned for heavy industry.
"You are not alone.
You are accepted by some non-deterministic automaton."
0 0
|_______|
| o o |
| + |
| \_/ |
---------
0--| |---0
0-------0
Ben Iglauer
b...@cs.utexas.edu
Lance Purple
It was a calculating machine by Charles Babbage in the 1840's. to
calculate and print out tables of stuff, such as tide charts, etc.
using hard-wired (geared?) formulas. He never built one for lack
of money, but modern hobbyists have built working models using his
blueprints.
Later, he started designing an "analytical engine" to calculate
formulas "programmed" on punched cards instead of hard-coded on
racks of gears; in other words, a TL5 steam-powered computer.
"The Difference Engine" is also the title of a steampunk novel by
Bruce Sterling and William Gibson, about an alternate Victorian
England where computing machines are commonplace, and society has
totally changed as a result (and not often for the better...)
.----------------------------.
| lpurple at netcom dot com |
'----------------------------'
William H. Stoddard
>
> I guess my blathering boils down to this: "What does the punk in Steampunk
> mean?"
>
Engine. Its authors were Gibson and Sterling, two of the leading names in
cyberpunk, and their milieu was corrupt and full of intrigue. I think
this is what suggested the name, which then got extended to other fiction
that didn't have the corruption, or not as much of it.
> On another note, how many of you Steampunker's feel that Post-Steampunk
> lends itself for a Gernsback style game? I can see a tacking on what you are
> describing for Steampunk as the "prehistory" for Gernsback in GURPS:
> Alternate Earths. Food for thought.
>
> Don't mention Gernsbackpunk or I'll scream. :)
>
I usually call this "retrotech." Of course, strictly speaking,
"steampunk" is a form of retrotech too. I like retrotech a lot, both in
fiction and as a campaign milieu.
Of course, just looking at it linguistically, it might be better shortened
to Gernspunk.
William H. Stoddard
successfully built by Charles Babbage. One of his designs was actually
brought on line in England a couple of years ago and worked quite well.
Babbage was defeated by the lack of precision machining in his time--when
he started his work engineers thought a sixteenth of an inch was close
tolerance.
Actually, the difference engine was Babbage's first design, I believe; he
also worked out a more advanced design, the analytical engine, whose
capabilities were more like those of a general purpose computer and less
like those of a calculator. But "The Difference Engine" made a better
punning title--the engine of the differences in Gibson and Sterling's
fictional society.
john
supplement, that's what I want to know. Surely the interest in this thread
indicates that there is a market for this!
You can't tell me Goblins, Prisoner and some of the other obscure stuff is
more marketable than a Space :1889 ish sourcebook.
mai...@my-dejanews.com
whs...@primenet.com (William H. Stoddard) wrote:
> In article <199809120939...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> kit...@aol.com (Kitarak) wrote:
> >
> > What's a Difference Engine?
> >
> A digital computer with purely mechanical linkages, designed but never
> successfully built by Charles Babbage. One of his designs was actually
> brought on line in England a couple of years ago and worked quite well.
> Babbage was defeated by the lack of precision machining in his time--when
> he started his work engineers thought a sixteenth of an inch was close
> tolerance.
I had heard that the reason Babbage's computers were never built was because
he kept designing better engines, and didn't want one built until he felt he
had finally perfected it. A sixteenth of an inch? Wow, that's pretty big,
compared to the machining of today. Today's tolerances are as tight as a
tenth of a thousandth of an inch.
>
> Actually, the difference engine was Babbage's first design, I believe; he
> also worked out a more advanced design, the analytical engine, whose
> capabilities were more like those of a general purpose computer and less
> like those of a calculator. But "The Difference Engine" made a better
> punning title--the engine of the differences in Gibson and Sterling's
> fictional society.
>
> --
> William H. Stoddard
Ralph Glatt
Tom Vallejos
>
> Tom Vallejos wrote:
>
> > Kitarak wrote:
> > >
> > > >The original steampunk RPG, based on the late victorian science
> > >
> > > Next question. Whats a steampunk RPG
> >
> >
> > Steampunk is a genre similar to cyberpunk except it takes place in a
> > quasi-19th century setting and the characters are more in keeping with
> > Victorian and Jules Verne-like viewpoints.
>
> Tom,
>
> the following posts:
>
> Steampunk = Victorian era settings, 19th century "future science"
> (steamships in space, Dinosaurs on Venus and anti-gravity wood on Mars), with
> generous portions of Jules Verne for flavor.
>
> Cyberpunk = Gritty "High Tech/Low Life" feel, where machinery is worth more
> than human life, governments and corporations don't even to pretend to value
> ethics over money, ecological disasters and the "sprawl-ification" of the
> world, technology developing faster than our ability to understand the
> ramifications of it, and the numbing of the average-man-on-the-street's sense
> of ethics, compassion, and equality. This genre has generous portions of
> William Gibson for flavor.
>
> about enough, that I _assume_ that there is a logical reason for the name of
> Sci-Fi"?
> I guess my blathering boils down to this: "What does the punk in Steampunk
> mean?"
>
>
I was merely trying to explain what the term steampunk meant. I guess
the term was coined by those who had, at least, a passing interest in
cyberpunk and thus the term was coined. I did not invent the term
"steampunk" however, the term has stuck to mean the genre.
OTOH I think "Victorian Scientification" might be a better term.:-)
--
Tom Vallejos
to email me remove "nospam" from address
email: flying...@nospamearthlink.net
"On a brighter note Ray, 18% of all (plane) crash survivors crawl
away with at least 3 out of 4 limbs."
(Fraser to Ray as their plane falls out of the sky)
delph...@geocities.com
But somebody wanted to do them, and SJG said "cool". Now if *you* want
to do a steampunk book, I'd direct you to
http://www.sjgames.com/general/guidelines/writers/ and wish you luck...
William H. Stoddard
>
> I had heard that the reason Babbage's computers were never built was because
> he kept designing better engines, and didn't want one built until he felt he
> had finally perfected it. A sixteenth of an inch? Wow, that's pretty big,
> compared to the machining of today. Today's tolerances are as tight as a
> tenth of a thousandth of an inch.
>
ordered a steam engine from the manufacturer you expected to spend a week
or two getting it on line by hammering and filing for tighter fits.
Phillip Ames
Stoddard) wrote:
>In article <q9ogssm...@lili8.lili.uni-bielefeld.de>, Clemens Meier
><clm...@lili8.lili.uni-bielefeld.de> wrote:
>>
>> Wasn't Mad Ludwig the one who built castle Neuschwanstein
>> (Hollywood gothic castle, as Phil Barker would say) and later
>> drowned?
>>
>> In those days, you couldn't just put your By--Grace--of--God
>> ruler in an insane asylum. IIRC, the Bavarian court carefully
>> shielded him from the world, or the world from him, whatever.
>>
>Of course, if I recall correctly, they had Lola Montez to help distract
>him. I'd bet she was a lot of help. She could be a good real-world
>prototype for the Space 1889 Adventuress profession.
Lola Montez was a distraction for Ludwig I, not Mad Ludwig...Of
course, most of the Wittlesbachs were rather nutty. IIRC, Otto, Ludwig
II's brother, thought he was a dog. And for another adventuress
prototype, look at his <either aunt or cousin> Sophie, who studied
Eastern mysticism, and came very close to living the life of a Gothic
heroine.
Phil.
mai...@my-dejanews.com
nospam (john) wrote:
> Great, Now that we have defined what Steampunk is, when will SJG make a
> supplement, that's what I want to know. Surely the interest in this thread
> indicates that there is a market for this!
> You can't tell me Goblins, Prisoner and some of the other obscure stuff is
> more marketable than a Space :1889 ish sourcebook.
I seem to remember hearing that Steve Jackson Games *did* get the rights to
do a sourcebook on "The Difference Engine," but they've been delayed on it
for some reason. As for the obscure stuff, (i.e. Prisoner) I kinda like
seeing it out there. It gives me a chance to find out about something I'd not
normally be able to.
> --
> John P.
> Montreal.
> ----
>
Ralph Glatt
David Starner
> Biopunk: I'm the only person I know of who has used this term. The
> only examples of it were from some science fiction magazine short
> stories (Asimov's, sometime in 1997; I believe one was called
> "Scorpion's Kiss.")
Adventures "The Medusa Sanction" was set in this type of world. I don't remember
the term Biopunk used, though.
> Not very gamable IMHO because tailored
> hunter-killer viruses are among the *nicest* things you can do to kill
> somebody, and all you need for that is a sample of their dandruff...
> It's just too lethal. The powerful will just have no living enemies
> less powerful than they, and past a certain threshold everyone's DNA
> is Top Secret. Burning dandruff and fingernails and the like.
If you look at it that way, viruses are among the most dangerous weapons to work
with. Any failure in a small illegal lab will probably lead to the death of
dozens-millions, depending on how bad the failure or virus. Or feel free to ban
viruses from your campaign - maybe the Immunity from Disease everyone has stops
any non-military viruses.
The gamable aspects of it though include genetic engineering for everyone. The
character who has a snake icon in cyberspace may look exactly like that in real
life. Personal weapons tend to be grown in - claws, fangs, venom. If they go off
planet, maybe the genmod for vacumn support just get added in. Or make it all
built in at birth and unchangable. Add in as much or as little cyberpunk as
needed.
--
David Starner - dstar...@aasaa.ofe.org, dvd...@hotmail.com
GURPS: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Ring/7895/
"Destiny, chance, fate, fortune -- they're all just ways
of claming your successes without claiming your failures."
-- Gerrard of the Weatherlight
Tom Vallejos
>
> In article <6teft3$3tl$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, mai...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > I had heard that the reason Babbage's computers were never built was because
> > he kept designing better engines, and didn't want one built until he felt he
> > had finally perfected it. A sixteenth of an inch? Wow, that's pretty big,
> > compared to the machining of today. Today's tolerances are as tight as a
> > tenth of a thousandth of an inch.
> >
> Yeah, standards have changed a lot. I've read that in 1800 when you
> ordered a steam engine from the manufacturer you expected to spend a week
> or two getting it on line by hammering and filing for tighter fits.
>
> --
> William H. Stoddard whs...@primenet.net
I was watching a documentary about the Messerschmitt Bf109 on The
Discovery Channel awhile back and a restorer for one in, I think the UK,
said he was impressed with the machined tolerances for the plane. IIRC
said it was almost impossible to duplicate it if someone wanted to build
the plane today with the same methods.
mai...@my-dejanews.com
flying...@nopsamearthlink.net wrote:
> William H. Stoddard wrote:
> >
> > In article <6teft3$3tl$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, mai...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > >
> > > I had heard that the reason Babbage's computers were never built was
because
> > > he kept designing better engines, and didn't want one built until he felt
he
> > > had finally perfected it. A sixteenth of an inch? Wow, that's pretty big,
> > > compared to the machining of today. Today's tolerances are as tight as a
> > > tenth of a thousandth of an inch.
> > >
> > Yeah, standards have changed a lot. I've read that in 1800 when you
> > ordered a steam engine from the manufacturer you expected to spend a week
> > or two getting it on line by hammering and filing for tighter fits.
> >
> > --
> > William H. Stoddard whs...@primenet.net
>
> I was watching a documentary about the Messerschmitt Bf109 on The
> Discovery Channel awhile back and a restorer for one in, I think the UK,
> said he was impressed with the machined tolerances for the plane. IIRC
> said it was almost impossible to duplicate it if someone wanted to build
> the plane today with the same methods.
We're talking what, late 1930's here? That's about when they first started
using powdered metal presses and metal lathes, so I'm not that suprised. The
only man I know of for certain who'd know about it would be T.J. Lindsay, who
sells books on that topic.
>
> --
> Tom Vallejos
> to email me remove "nospam" from address
> email: flying...@nospamearthlink.net
Ralph Glatt
Juergen Hubert
>
> In article <35faa...@news.total.net>,
> nospam (john) wrote:
> > Great, Now that we have defined what Steampunk is, when will SJG make a
> > supplement, that's what I want to know. Surely the interest in this thread
> > indicates that there is a market for this!
> > You can't tell me Goblins, Prisoner and some of the other obscure stuff is
> > more marketable than a Space :1889 ish sourcebook.
>
> I seem to remember hearing that Steve Jackson Games *did* get the rights to
> do a sourcebook on "The Difference Engine," but they've been delayed on it
> for some reason.
IIRC the guy who wanted to write it died...
-- Juergen Hubert
Larry Smith
> > >OK. What is space 1889 then.
> Why are the Belgians the main villians? Why not Imperial Germany?
Comic relief.
--
.-. .-. .---. .---. .-..-. |Politics is the art of looking for
| |__ / | \| |-< | |-< > / |trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing
`----'`-^-'`-'`-'`-'`-' `-' |it and then misapplying the wrong
My opinions only. |remedies. Groucho Marx