Gurps Doctor Who!
erincss
What would a TL 16 knife or sword look like?
What would a TL16 gun look like?
What would a TL 16 standard military field jacket look like?
What materials would the TARDIS be made of?
These and more questions need to be answered in order to do this.
Gregory L. Hansen
erincss <eri...@aol.com> wrote:
>How do we do Gurps Doctor Who? Are the Time Lord's Tech Level 16?
>
>What would a TL 16 knife or sword look like?
A lot like a knife or a sword.
>What would a TL16 gun look like?
A handle with a peice of Plexiglas rod on it.
>What would a TL 16 standard military field jacket look like?
Bright, primary colors, with puffy shoulder rings.
>
>What materials would the TARDIS be made of?
Unobtainium.
Actually, what I think would be a lot of fun is GURPS UNIT. Being a
United Nations thing, I assume there are branches all over the world, not
just in Britain. Even if most of the alien invasions are staged in
Britain.
I suppose it would be a lot like Black Ops, except the characters aren't
as powerful, but there's more of them, and they can operate officially.
And the technology isn't as high, but they can get antitank weapons and
call in air strikes. And they don't wear black suits, but they do get
snappy berets.
--
"'No user-serviceable parts inside.' I'll be the judge of that!"
Edward Wedig
>How do we do Gurps Doctor Who? Are the Time Lord's Tech
Level 16?
>
>What would a TL 16 knife or sword look like?
I wouldn't think that a TL16 society would still use knives
or swords. Isn't TL16 the "Poof, you're dead" variety of
weapondry.
>What would a TL16 gun look like?
ditto
>What would a TL 16 standard military field jacket look like?
>
>What materials would the TARDIS be made of?
The exterior, or the interior? I was always under the
impression that the exterior was made of shaped pieces of
space time, but I could be wrong...
>
>These and more questions need to be answered in order to do
this.
You might want to read the section on TL15-16 in Ultra-Tech.
At that point in a societies development, the technology is
pretty much "indistinguishable from Magic". It is so far
beyond what we know, it can scarcely be described.
-Ed
****************************
Edward Wedig
Graphic Designer - Web Designer - Gamemaster - Nice Guy
www.edtheartist.com and www.docbrown.net
****************************
David Johnston
>
> eri...@aol.com (erincss) wrote:
> >How do we do Gurps Doctor Who? Are the Time Lord's Tech
> Level 16?
> >
> >What would a TL 16 knife or sword look like?
>
> I wouldn't think that a TL16 society would still use knives
> or swords. Isn't TL16 the "Poof, you're dead" variety of
> weapondry.
Gallifrey isn't really that advanced except in terms of their hard to
evaluate time travel and space manipulation technologies.
Tom A.
erincss wrote:
>
> How do we do Gurps Doctor Who?
Dr. What? was done for Gurps IOU.
> Are the Time Lord's Tech Level 16?
Does it matter when it's that high?
>
> What would a TL 16 knife or sword look like?
Dr. Who doesn't use weapons.
> What would a TL16 gun look like?
> What would a TL 16 standard military field jacket look like?
>
> What materials would the TARDIS be made of?
Unbreakintoum.
>
> These and more questions need to be answered in order to do this.
Actually those questions have nothing to do with Dr. Who. He almost
always thought himself out of problems, and the Galifrayan soldiers
never left their home planet (and didn't look too tough there.)
The essence of Dr. Who is going strange places and times, meeting
strange people, and avoiding it when they want to kill you. And solving
murders, mysteries, and conflicts along with the occasional race and
planet, along the way.
--
Tom A.
"I always say, if you want to know where someone came from, look at
where they're going, and work backwards."
"Where are you going?"
"I have no idea." - from one of the Key to Time episodes.
Bryan J. Maloney
<rgo...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
Indeed, the Doctor, himself said, when confronted with some sort of
Gallifreyan doodad, that he had seen devices in his travels that would
make this Time Lord pride and joy look unspeakably primitive.
From what I've been able to piece together, Rassilon and Omegon
essentially made an accidental discovery that gave Gallifrey a "lateral
move" in the sciences.
--
"A 'Cape Cod Salsa' just isn't right."
Xiphias Gladius
> How do we do Gurps Doctor Who? Are the Time Lord's Tech Level 16?
The Time Lords are TL 16, at least in some fields.
But they don't use TL 16 technology for most things.
> What would a TL 16 knife or sword look like?
What does a TL 7 fire-drill look like? Or a TL 7 atatl? A TL 16 knife
would look like a TL 7 knife, or, basically, like a TL 3 knife.
> What would a TL16 gun look like?
See above.
> What would a TL 16 standard military field jacket look like?
It wouldn't.
> What materials would the TARDIS be made of?
Mystical magical stuff that's beyond the comprehension of our puny TL 7-8
minds.
> These and more questions need to be answered in order to do this.
Actually, they don't. The Beeb never answered such questions and they
were able to actually make the series.
Time Lords use whatever technology is around in the place they are. Any
"Time Lord Only" technology or Secret Mental Techniques can be bought as
superpower gadgets, psionics powers, magical knacks, or what-have-you. We
*don't* know how it works, Time Lords never *explain* how it works, so, to
play a Time Lord, the *player* doesn't need to know how it works.
In the Comic Relief Doctor Who parody (in which Rowan Atkinson, Hugh
Grant, and Patricia Lumley, among others, play The Doctor) a running gag
is the Doctor brushing off all questions from the companion with, "I'll
explain later."
- Ian
--
"We could watch THE PRISONER and then watch TELETUBBIES!" -- my mother
Bruce Grubb
eri...@aol.com (erincss) wrote:
>How do we do Gurps Doctor Who? Are the Time Lord's Tech Level 16?
No they are not. Other they their method of Time Travel they are not that
advanced. In fact as demonstrated by nubmours episodes they are largely
ignorent of the workings of their own technology (Deadly Assassin).
Gregory L. Hansen
Okay, I already said I think GURPS UNIT would be a lot of fun. For my
next gig, GURPS Gallifreyan Black-Ops. With the ability to travel
anywhere in time and space, their security isn't military might so much as
removing threats by manipulating sensitive elements in the past. Dr. Who
himself was sent on a few of those missions in the TV series. But I've
sometimes wondered if he could get much more done with a well-armed team
of commandos at his command. And, well, you know how much player
characters enjoy shooting things...
The ultimate goal might not be simple destruction of an enemy, but
redirecting him. Suppose the Time Lords have some policy of making
nice-nice whenever they can, and the PC's mission parameters are based on
careful calculations by the scientists at home of the local social effects
of different actions.
For all that, Gallifreyen technology is darn impressived. A shield that
protects an entire planet from virtually any attack, a lump of metal that
zips around and destroys a fleet of thousands of warships, they presumably
have the ability to TARDIS a bomb anywhere and anywhen they want, plus
more conventional weaponry.
erincss
>I wouldn't think that a TL16 society would still use knives
>or swords. Isn't TL16 the "Poof, you're dead" variety of
>weapondry.
>
I meant if they made one for a special use, say for survival.
David Johnston
Probably just look like any other sword, even if it was made out
of a metal that could survive undamaged for millions of years after
being hit with a nuke, created a mental link with its owner and
shortcircuited forcefields.
Tim Pollard
"David Johnston" <rgo...@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:3C15BA...@telusplanet.net...
Isn't that a lightsaber? <g>
--
Regards
Tim Pollard
Gregory L. Hansen
On Dr. Who, it would have a transparant blade.
For anyone else, it would probably be a lot like a knife. Maybe made from
a material that resists corrosion better than modern tool steels, holds an
edge better than modern stainless steels, and is tougher than modern
ceramics. But basically, just a knife.
Bryan J. Maloney
eri...@aol.com (erincss) wrote:
On Gallifrey, Time Lords don't use primitive nonsense like "knives",
only the Shebogans do, and they would INSIST that theirs be hand-made
from flint.
Bryan J. Maloney
<bgr...@zianet.com> wrote:
At one time the Time Lords were highly advanced technologically, but
then their technology got to be so advanced that it no longer needed
them to understand it in order to keep working or keep being built. At
which point, they went into "legs up" mode.
Robin Johnson
news:XP9R7.5786$lY5.4...@newssvr28.news.prodigy.com...
> Isn't TL16 the "Poof, you're dead" variety of weapondry.
I'd hope that by TL16, we're beyond that sort of discrimination...
--
Robin Johnson
rd...@le.ac.NO-SPAM-PLEASE.uk
http://www.nondescript.org
"A cup of coffee with a fork, please."
Gregory L. Hansen
Robin Johnson <rd...@le.ac.NO-SPAM-PLEASE.uk> wrote:
>"Edward Wedig" <doc_...@sumeritech.net> wrote in message
>news:XP9R7.5786$lY5.4...@newssvr28.news.prodigy.com...
>
>> Isn't TL16 the "Poof, you're dead" variety of weapondry.
>
>I'd hope that by TL16, we're beyond that sort of discrimination...
Equal opportunities for the electroencephalographically challenged?
Bryan J. Maloney
> In article <9v5pkn$u7on$1...@rook.le.ac.uk>,
> Robin Johnson <rd...@le.ac.NO-SPAM-PLEASE.uk> wrote:
> >"Edward Wedig" <doc_...@sumeritech.net> wrote in message
> >news:XP9R7.5786$lY5.4...@newssvr28.news.prodigy.com...
> >
> >> Isn't TL16 the "Poof, you're dead" variety of weapondry.
> >
> >I'd hope that by TL16, we're beyond that sort of discrimination...
>
> Equal opportunities for the electroencephalographically challenged?
At least if one is groovy and funky enough.
Joseph Teller
L. Hansen) wrote:
>For all that, Gallifreyen technology is darn impressived. A shield that
>protects an entire planet from virtually any attack, a lump of metal that
>zips around and destroys a fleet of thousands of warships, they presumably
>have the ability to TARDIS a bomb anywhere and anywhen they want, plus
>more conventional weaponry.
It depends on what you accept as canon in the series and what you
consider bad writing at the tail end when the series was dying. There
are many who ignore the entire McCoy series of shows as they
contradict previously presented episodes (also McCoy's doctor talks
about moving sideways in time, and keeps bumping into things he
supposedly did that he has no memory or record of doing). Many believe
that the "Trial of A Timelord' (2nd Baker) season onward is best to
avoid, as the timeline had been sabotaged by the Dr's enemies and
contains a lot of false info onward.
The Shield (Induction Barrier) is imperfect and can be maneuvered
around, as was shown in the series, by anyone who has sufficient time
travel technology, or who can transmat broadcast on certain
frequencies.
The Lump of metal is one of those questionable period items.
Controlling a black hole in another dimension, and the pulsars in this
one, as a power source is high tech engineering definitely.
Remember that throughout the series though the Timelords are in a
technological decline, and that there is a rampant anti-tech
advancement approach by the entire culture. Technicians are treated as
inferior servants, beneath both the Politicians and the Soldiers.
Below them are the entertainers and the 'working masses' which are
almost never seen in the series. Gallifrey is a class based society,
modeled after the old English Victorian system.
So though they have Tech 16 items much of their technology isn't
available to the majority of the population. I suspect on the general
scale they are closer to GURPS TL 12 in what they can actually do as a
society.... and this may be dropping as time goes on and they forget
how to maintain the old equipment.
Joe
"Our existence deforms the universe. That's responsibility."
--- Delirium
David Walker
Wait long enough and they'll certainly be funky
Gregory L. Hansen
Joseph Teller <joet...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>On 11 Dec 2001 02:40:08 GMT, glha...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory
>L. Hansen) wrote:
>
>
>>For all that, Gallifreyen technology is darn impressived. A shield that
>>protects an entire planet from virtually any attack, a lump of metal that
>>zips around and destroys a fleet of thousands of warships, they presumably
>>have the ability to TARDIS a bomb anywhere and anywhen they want, plus
>>more conventional weaponry.
>
>It depends on what you accept as canon in the series and what you
>consider bad writing at the tail end when the series was dying. There
>The Lump of metal is one of those questionable period items.
But then again, why not? It seems they haven't been seriously threatened
by Daleks, Cybermen, and others of that ilk. They must be doing something
right. The technology that have appeared in the shows is a plot element
here and there, and shouldn't be considered exhaustive.
>Remember that throughout the series though the Timelords are in a
>technological decline, and that there is a rampant anti-tech
>advancement approach by the entire culture.
A few peices of technology that nobody really understand any more, a small
group outside of "The City"...
>Technicians are treated as
>inferior servants, beneath both the Politicians and the Soldiers.
>Below them are the entertainers and the 'working masses' which are
>almost never seen in the series. Gallifrey is a class based society,
>modeled after the old English Victorian system.
Where did all of that come from? I don't recall seeing anything in the
series that suggests any of that, except that the rulers enjoy pomp and
ceremony, like the British.
The Sophist
> Remember that throughout the series though the Timelords are in a
> technological decline, and that there is a rampant anti-tech
> advancement approach by the entire culture. Technicians are treated as
> inferior servants, beneath both the Politicians and the Soldiers.
> Below them are the entertainers and the 'working masses' which are
> almost never seen in the series. Gallifrey is a class based society,
> modeled after the old English Victorian system.
I wonder how much you want to model things in your game which seem
clearly based on the low budget of the series. A combination of a
miniscule cast, and possibly poor directing which prevented them from
being able to hide more successfully that they had a miniscule cast,
meant that all the episodes set on Gallifrey conveyed the impression
that Gallifrey had a population of about 12. Since I'm sure that wasn't
deliberate, is it necessary to make excuses for it? Sure, it's possible
that the lower classes were kept away from the corridors of power, but
since there ought to have been more elites about than the series
suggested, one could equally well take the absence of ordinary
Gallifreyans as reflecting no more than their shortage of cash for
extras, and not something to be reflected in a game.
--
Aaron Boyden
"I may have done this and that for sufferers; but always I seemed to
have done better when I learned to feel better joys."
-Thus spoke Zarathustra
Joseph Michael Bay
>> What would a TL 16 knife or sword look like?
>What does a TL 7 fire-drill look like?
A bunch of people leaving a building and standing
around in the parking lot until they go back in.
Many of them smoke while standing in the lot.
--
Joseph M. Bay Lamont Sanford Junior University
Putting the "harm" in molecular pharmacology since 1998
When crime is outlawed, only outlaws will commit crimes.
LEGALIZE http://www.stanford.edu/~jmbay CRIME
Bruce Grubb
glha...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory L. Hansen) wrote:
>In article <3c161ce7...@news.mindspring.com>,
>Joseph Teller <joet...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>On 11 Dec 2001 02:40:08 GMT, glha...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory
>>L. Hansen) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>For all that, Gallifreyen technology is darn impressived. A shield that
>>>protects an entire planet from virtually any attack, a lump of metal that
>>>zips around and destroys a fleet of thousands of warships, they presumably
>>>have the ability to TARDIS a bomb anywhere and anywhen they want, plus
>>>more conventional weaponry.
>>
>>It depends on what you accept as canon in the series and what you
>>consider bad writing at the tail end when the series was dying. There
>
>>The Lump of metal is one of those questionable period items.
>
>But then again, why not? It seems they haven't been seriously threatened
>by Daleks, Cybermen, and others of that ilk. They must be doing something
>right.
Actually as shown in 'Invasion of Time' (4Z) this was more due the hubrus of
the Gallifreyens than anything to do with their technology. The Doctor know
that the Vardans would be a threat and arrainged events so as to get rid of
them. But with the transduction barriers down the Sontarans show up and
quickly take over. Without the technology Rasilon left behind the
Gallifreyens are helpless.
>>Remember that throughout the series though the Timelords are in a
>>technological decline, and that there is a rampant anti-tech
>>advancement approach by the entire culture.
>
>A few peices of technology that nobody really understand any more, a small
>group outside of "The City"...
>
>>Technicians are treated as
>>inferior servants, beneath both the Politicians and the Soldiers.
>>Below them are the entertainers and the 'working masses' which are
>>almost never seen in the series. Gallifrey is a class based society,
>>modeled after the old English Victorian system.
>
>Where did all of that come from? I don't recall seeing anything in the
>series that suggests any of that, except that the rulers enjoy pomp and
>ceremony, like the British.
IIRC soem of this is related in "Deadly Assassin" (4P) and the novilizations
of the episodes.
Bruce Grubb
fantas...@mindspring.com (Joseph Teller) wrote:
>On 11 Dec 2001 02:40:08 GMT, glha...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory
>L. Hansen) wrote:
>
>
>>For all that, Gallifreyen technology is darn impressived. A shield that
>>protects an entire planet from virtually any attack, a lump of metal that
>>zips around and destroys a fleet of thousands of warships, they presumably
>>have the ability to TARDIS a bomb anywhere and anywhen they want, plus
>>more conventional weaponry.
>
>It depends on what you accept as canon in the series and what you
>consider bad writing at the tail end when the series was dying. There
>are many who ignore the entire McCoy series of shows as they
>contradict previously presented episodes (also McCoy's doctor talks
>about moving sideways in time, and keeps bumping into things he
>supposedly did that he has no memory or record of doing).
Actually the sideways in time bit is not new - IIRC it first showed up in
"Inferno" (DDD) with the Jon Pertwee doctor. Also the Doctor has to deal
with alternative timelines before (Pyramid of Mars). As far as the Doctor not
remembering stuff Tom Baker had that problem from most of 'Face of Fear' (4Q)
and some episodes delt with actions done by *future* incarnations of the
Doctors NOT past ones.
>Many believe
>that the "Trial of A Timelord' (2nd Baker) season onward is best to
>avoid, as the timeline had been sabotaged by the Dr's enemies and
>contains a lot of false info onward.
Actually the timeline isn't that bad a mess though the less said about things
like 'Delta and the Bannermem (7F) the better.
Bryan Maloney
news:3c161ce7...@news.mindspring.com:
> The Lump of metal is one of those questionable period items.
That's Our Miss Nemesis, right? Too bad McCoy was given such miserable
plots to act in.
--
"Why then did the passengers on the plane that went down near Pittsburgh
decide to resist the hijackers and prevent them from completing their
mission? Because they knew: their relatives had told them by cell phone that
the World Trade Center had already been attacked by hijacked planes. They
were armed with final awareness of the nature of the evil they faced.
So armed, they could act. So armed, they did."
--Time Magazine
Bryan Maloney
news:bgrubb-A361EF....@web.zianet.com:
> Actually as shown in 'Invasion of Time' (4Z) this was more due the
> hubrus of the Gallifreyens than anything to do with their technology.
> The Doctor know that the Vardans would be a threat and arrainged events
> so as to get rid of them. But with the transduction barriers down the
> Sontarans show up and quickly take over. Without the technology
> Rasilon left behind the Gallifreyens are helpless.
And both the barrier and Rassilon's Really Spiffy Gun seem to be legacy
technology that no Time Lord actually understands.
Bryan Maloney
> suggested, one could equally well take the absence of ordinary
> Gallifreyans as reflecting no more than their shortage of cash for
> extras, and not something to be reflected in a game.
I took the sparseness, combined with the disdain felt by the Shebogans, to
be more evidence of Gallifreyan decadence.
Gregory L. Hansen
Bruce Grubb <bgr...@zianet.com> wrote:
>Actually the timeline isn't that bad a mess though the less said about things
>like 'Delta and the Bannermem (7F) the better.
I liked the Bannermen! I liked how they always ran around, how many bad
guys on Dr. Who actually move quickly?
Gregory L. Hansen
Bryan Maloney <bj...@cornell.edu> wrote:
>fantas...@mindspring.com (Joseph Teller) wrote in
>news:3c161ce7...@news.mindspring.com:
>
>> The Lump of metal is one of those questionable period items.
>
>That's Our Miss Nemesis, right? Too bad McCoy was given such miserable
>plots to act in.
A lot of people don't seem to like McCoy, but I thought he made a fine
Doctor. He had a good face for it, he was good at looking curious or
outraged. If the stories stunk, I don't blame that on him.
Xiphias Gladius
> I wonder how much you want to model things in your game which seem
> clearly based on the low budget of the series. A combination of a
> miniscule cast, and possibly poor directing which prevented them from
> being able to hide more successfully that they had a miniscule cast,
> meant that all the episodes set on Gallifrey conveyed the impression
> that Gallifrey had a population of about 12. Since I'm sure that wasn't
> deliberate, is it necessary to make excuses for it? Sure, it's possible
> that the lower classes were kept away from the corridors of power, but
> since there ought to have been more elites about than the series
> suggested, one could equally well take the absence of ordinary
> Gallifreyans as reflecting no more than their shortage of cash for
> extras, and not something to be reflected in a game.
That takes all the fun out of playing in a Doctor Who game.
If you're playing in a Doctor Who game, you have to come up with
characters whose outfits could concievably have come out of the prop
department at the Beeb, and settings that all look like part of England,
or like sets that the Beeb might have had lying around. You have to have
all characters be British, even if they're not. (I played Quenton
Bainbridge, who looked like a proper Victorian Englishman. Okay, he'd
actually come from a society that lived on a generation ship which had had
a disaster centuries ago, which destroyed a lot of their technology, so
that they had to "gear down" their tech to a sustainable level, which was
Victorian level tech. However, their *educational* system was still just
fine, so he dressed as a Victorian, had mainly Victorian attitudes, and
only knew how to use Victorian tech, but he was well-educated in Galactic
history, and understood a lot of the basic theory behind superscience
concepts.) If the characters *aren't* British, they have to be primitive
savages, like, for instance, Teegan.
And you have to have cliffhangers at the end of every session. And at the
beginning of the next session, you have to replay the last thirty seconds
of the previous seconds before continuing on, so that you set up the
cliffhanger again, before you solve it.
And you *have* to have the theme music to play at the beginning and end of
each session.
Doctor Who isn't so much a *setting* as an attitude.
erincss
critique and comments on this, would be the following: Player characters meet a
"Doc Brown" sort of fellow, befriend him, and they all decide to take a trip in
a time machine, albeit a "primitive" one made with modern materials and a
nuclear fission power source (okay for game purposes lets say it can be done).
They decide to try and travel to the future, but instead, they land on Planet
Gallifrey!
My questions:
How would the Gallifreyans in general and especially the Time Lords and their
govt react to these Earth humans? Lock em up? Let em be? Steal their machine ?
erincss
Her tomboyish yet feminine attitude, and her use of Nitro Nine, and the way
that chemistry (the characters, not the Nitro9), was great.
Anyone remember the episode with the Happiness Patrol and the Candy Kitchen?
Mr. M.J. Lush
They would lock em up, throw away the key and safely dispose of
the time machine... the Time Lords don't like anyone (else) playing
with Time!
This makes for a dull plot... I could see a Gallifreyan noble
occasionally taking them out of clink and using them for 'black ops'
where the 'savage human instincts' would be useful.
--
Michael
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NPC rights activist | Nameless Abominations are people too.
David Johnston
Well, one of the problems with primitive time travel in the Doctor Who universe, is
that it is an insanely dangerous proposition. The Gallifreyans lucked out in mastering
it since it tends to destroy anyone developing it and endangers their world at a
minimum. So really they can't "let em be". Confiscating their time machine is a
must, particularly since time machines really can't be developed at that low a TL, so
they'd have to take it apart and figure out what's really going on. Some possibilities
are that the inventor used a scrap of more advanced technology to somehow overcome
his technological limitations, that the inventor is really the Master in disguise,
or that someone on board is a timehopper, or that the Gallifreyans actually intercepted
the time machine which would have otherwise gone spectacularly bad and move it using
their own tech.
Apart from that, they probably would lock up the intruders at least until they'd had
time to question and interrogate them. Once established that the humans were basicly
clueless, they might be left to wander the citadel more or or less freely or locked up
indefinitely until a villain decides to pop them free in order to use them as a
diversion for his fiendish scheme or something.
Gregory L. Hansen
David Johnston <rgo...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
>Apart from that, they probably would lock up the intruders at least
>until they'd had
>time to question and interrogate them. Once established that the humans
>were basicly
>clueless, they might be left to wander the citadel more or or less
>freely or locked up
>indefinitely until a villain decides to pop them free in order to use them as a
>diversion for his fiendish scheme or something.
In previous episodes, the Time Lords have shown a commendable willingness
to return people to their place and time of origin. Possibly after
messing with their heads a little.
Tom A.
"Gregory L. Hansen" wrote:
>
> In article <9v8p1v$3cd$3...@news01.cit.cornell.edu>,
> Bryan Maloney <bj...@cornell.edu> wrote:
> >fantas...@mindspring.com (Joseph Teller) wrote in
> >news:3c161ce7...@news.mindspring.com:
> >
> >> The Lump of metal is one of those questionable period items.
> >
> >That's Our Miss Nemesis, right? Too bad McCoy was given such miserable
> >plots to act in.
>
> A lot of people don't seem to like McCoy, but I thought he made a fine
> Doctor. He had a good face for it, he was good at looking curious or
> outraged. If the stories stunk, I don't blame that on him.
I liked his Doctor. He had a heroic and humorous quality that Baker2
and Davis (?) missed. IIRC he also seemed more serious than the first
Baker. I would have liked to see more of him.
>
> --
> "'No user-serviceable parts inside.' I'll be the judge of that!"
--
Tom A.
Bummer, huh? Sin sucks. - Fr. Joseph Horn
Joseph Michael Bay
>> suggested, one could equally well take the absence of ordinary
>> Gallifreyans as reflecting no more than their shortage of cash for
>> extras, and not something to be reflected in a game.
>That takes all the fun out of playing in a Doctor Who game.
>If you're playing in a Doctor Who game, you have to come up with
>characters whose outfits could concievably have come out of the prop
>department at the Beeb, and settings that all look like part of England,
>or like sets that the Beeb might have had lying around.
"We've landed on the planet Quirmos."
"What does it look like?"
"A Welsh quarry."
"Oh, yeah."
Tom A.
But for a game - after being rescued by the Time Lords from a horrible,
galaxy destroying time travel mistake, and being interrogated, and
released until they can arrange transportation back to their home
planet, the Doc Brown NPC picks up enough information to run a Tardis.
Then, during the Sontaran invasion, a citadel guard hides them in a
Tardis to avoid capture. The Doc, being curious, presses a button ...
And the game begins.
Joseph Teller
wrote:
>I liked his Doctor. He had a heroic and humorous quality that Baker2
>and Davis (?) missed. IIRC he also seemed more serious than the first
>Baker. I would have liked to see more of him.
The character was reasonable, the acting was fine, but the plots were
abysmal and the re-writing of the background was annoying.....
Edward Wedig
>"Gregory L. Hansen" wrote:
>>
>> In article <3C1854...@telusplanet.net>,
>> David Johnston <rgo...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Apart from that, they probably would lock up the intruders at least
>> >until they'd had
>> >time to question and interrogate them. Once established that the humans
>> >were basicly
>> >clueless, they might be left to wander the citadel more or or less
>> >freely or locked up
>> >indefinitely until a villain decides to pop them free in order to use them
as a
>> >diversion for his fiendish scheme or something.
>>
>> In previous episodes, the Time Lords have shown a commendable willingness
>> to return people to their place and time of origin. Possibly after
>> messing with their heads a little.
>
>But for a game - after being rescued by the Time Lords from a horrible,
>galaxy destroying time travel mistake, and being interrogated, and
>released until they can arrange transportation back to their home
>planet, the Doc Brown NPC picks up enough information to run a Tardis.
Really? :)
-Ed
****************************
Edward Wedig
Graphic Designer - Web Designer - Gamemaster - Nice Guy
www.edtheartist.com and www.docbrown.net
****************************
Johnny1A
> How do we do Gurps Doctor Who? Are the Time Lord's Tech Level 16?
The Time Lords in general, no. Probably more like TL 12, as someone
else said on this thread, but that's because that's the tech level
generally available. The High Council has access probably to TL 13 or
14, I'd say, but they use is sparingly, since they don't perfectly
understand all aspects of it.
Now, Rasilon himself is another matter...I'd say that _he's_ at TL 16,
but it's just him, not the whole race. I wonder what the GURPS point
value of Rasilon would be?
Hmmm...try this, a hypothetical loose-outline GURPS Dr. Who Universe:
NOTE: I'm only going to be using the 1st-5th Doctors, since after
that the continuity begins to fall apart beyond repair, and I lost
interest about then, so my knowledge is limited.
The Gallifreyans in general are a TL 13-14 race, though most of the
time they use TL 12 technology. Their society is structured, not like
a massive class system per se, but more like a university environment
(which certainly has its own pecking order!).
The Gallifreyan Government looks something like:
The Lord President of the High Council: Top dog, big cheese. Elected
by the Council from among its own members, he/she is effectively a
monarch, though limited by the Council.
There are hints that Gallifrey is a sort of republic, which means
there may be other bodies as well. I don't think that Gallifrey is a
true democracy, though. Probably more along the lines of a
meritocracy, where one goes through long education and training, and
rises (at least at the lower-mid levels) through competitive
examinations of one sort or another.
At high levels, probably the Council picks its own membership, filling
empty seats by selection from the high levels of the test-elevated
personnel. Thus, old-boy networks and the like are critically
important, and there would be a tendency for entrenched power
structures to get _very_ entrenched. Note further that Time Lord
society seems to be divided into three 'orders', perhaps each wht its
own training regimens and internal hierarchies.
Normally, I suspect that becoming Chancellor would mean you could
never be Lord President. I say this because according to _The Deadly
Assassin_, the Chancellor keeps the Great Key, as a preventative for a
Lord President having absolute power. If a Chancellor became
President, he'd _know_ where the Key was. Alternatively, perhaps when
a Chancellor becomes Lord President, the memory is erased.
The Doctor says that there are races and places with technology far
beyond what he is pointing at on Gallifrey. Mostly, I suspect that
this is hyperbole, since he was in a contentious mood just then, but
there probably are people with access to TL 13-14 stuff more readily
than most of Gallifrey.
Rasilon is probably the most advanced entity in the Dr. Who Universe.
The few times he's taken a direct hand, it's been essentially
irresistable. In _The Five Doctors_, when Rasilon decides to
intervene, the First Doctor tells the others that "it's out of our
hands now". That's an attitude rather unlike the Doctor, so I suspect
the Rasilon must be pretty well omnipotent, by the standards of
ordinary Gallifreyans (or everyone else). When the Doctors tell
Rasilon that one of their own is trapped in the Time Vortex, he just
smiles and says, IIRC, "...he too shall be freed."
That's all it takes. Rasilon wills it and the Fourth Doctor and
Romana are free of the Time Vortex, and the time damage heals itself.
NOTE: The history of the early Time Lords as revealed in The Five
Doctors gives us a potential reason _why_ Rasilon kept his most useful
secrets to himself. Try this for a snippet of possible history:
Rasilon and Omega develop the technology for time travel, but it's in
an early, less flexible form. They further manage to move Gallifrey
outside the time stream, making it act as a stable 'reference point'.
This is to explain why the Time Lords never seem to travel into their
_own_ past or future.
However, Omega is trapped in the detonation of the supernova that sets
the whole thing going. Rasilon, at this time, is a young
scientist/engineer, and so not really in control of how his inventions
are used. A corrupt Time Lord society basically uses the new
knowledge to build the Timescoop, and start up the Games in the Death
Zone.
Rasilon is horrified, and begins concealing both the full extent of
his own intellectual powers and the magnitude of his later inventions
and discoveries.
Eventually, he amasses sufficient technological power to overthrow the
government/society of the time, shut down the Timescoop, and forbid
the Games.
The Second Doctor notes that oral history has legends to the contrary,
in which the Time Lords revolt against his cruelty and seal Rasilon in
the Tower. The official history makes more sense on all levels.
1. If the other Time Lords sealed Rasilon away to end his cruelty,
_why_ would they record as official history that _he_ stopped _them_?
That would be a little like the Allies winning the Cold War, and then
rewriting their own history so that their descendents thought that
America/Britain organized the Stalinist purges. It would be almost
insane.
2. Given the displayed powers of Rasilon, I find the idea that the
Time Lords could seal him away succesfully somewhat laughable. If the
Rasilon of The Five Doctors and the rest of Gallifrey went to war, my
money would be on Rasilon.
3. If the official history is accurate, than it _does_ make sense
that the other Time Lords, their consciences eating at them, or just
to cover up their past, would tell their own offspring later that it
wasn't _really_ them who were the problem, it was that nasty dictator
Rasilon. Thus does the oral history get started, with its contrarian
interpretation.
I may try to expand this later when I have more time. I welcome
comments on what's here so far.
Shermanlee
Bruce Grubb
sherm...@hotmail.com (Johnny1A) wrote:
>eri...@aol.com (erincss) wrote in message
>news:<20011210110347...@mb-md.aol.com>...
>> How do we do Gurps Doctor Who? Are the Time Lord's Tech Level 16?
>
>The Time Lords in general, no. Probably more like TL 12, as someone
>else said on this thread, but that's because that's the tech level
>generally available. The High Council has access probably to TL 13 or
>14, I'd say, but they use is sparingly, since they don't perfectly
>understand all aspects of it.
>
>Now, Rasilon himself is another matter...I'd say that _he's_ at TL 16,
>but it's just him, not the whole race. I wonder what the GURPS point
>value of Rasilon would be?
>
>Hmmm...try this, a hypothetical loose-outline GURPS Dr. Who Universe:
>
>NOTE: I'm only going to be using the 1st-5th Doctors, since after
>that the continuity begins to fall apart beyond repair, and I lost
>interest about then, so my knowledge is limited.
Actually Collin Baker and Mccoy stories didn't mess thind up that badly -
there were inconsistancies as early as Tom Baker regarding Time Lord society.
>The Gallifreyans in general are a TL 13-14 race, though most of the
>time they use TL 12 technology. Their society is structured, not like
>a massive class system per se, but more like a university environment
>(which certainly has its own pecking order!).
>
>The Gallifreyan Government looks something like:
>
>The Lord President of the High Council: Top dog, big cheese. Elected
>by the Council from among its own members, he/she is effectively a
>monarch, though limited by the Council.
Directly contradicted by "The Deadly Assassin" (4P) which shows that the
Presidence generlly choses who his successor is and an election being held
only if this proclomation is not made. Furthermore the Doctor asks what is
so important about being president and it told that other than holding the
symbols of office (Sash and Key of Rassilon) "he is no different from any
other Time Lord" On a side note the Key here is different from the one shown
in "Invasion of Time" (4Z) where the Doctor simple proclaims himself as
President with nair a peep out of the Council.
>There are hints that Gallifrey is a sort of republic, which means
>there may be other bodies as well. I don't think that Gallifrey is a
>true democracy, though. Probably more along the lines of a
>meritocracy, where one goes through long education and training, and
>rises (at least at the lower-mid levels) through competitive
>examinations of one sort or another.
There is no evidendence of this one way or the other.
>Normally, I suspect that becoming Chancellor would mean you could
>never be Lord President. I say this because according to _The Deadly
>Assassin_, the Chancellor keeps the Great Key, as a preventative for a
>Lord President having absolute power. If a Chancellor became
>President, he'd _know_ where the Key was. Alternatively, perhaps when
>a Chancellor becomes Lord President, the memory is erased.
You are confusing "The Deadly Assassin" (4P) with "Invasion of Time" (4Z).
The Great Key in "The Deadly Assassin" is an abolite rod carried by the
President but then in "Invasion of Time" we see a totally different Great Key
which is held by the Chancellor. Futhermore Chancellor Gauth's efforts to
become President play a important role in the story of "The Deadly Assassin"
and the Sash serves entirely different fuctions in these two episodes. In
fact trying to make sence of "Invasion of Time" with information from "The
Deadly Assassin" cause all kinds of continuity problems.
>The Doctor says that there are races and places with technology far
>beyond what he is pointing at on Gallifrey. Mostly, I suspect that
>this is hyperbole, since he was in a contentious mood just then, but
>there probably are people with access to TL 13-14 stuff more readily
>than most of Gallifrey.
Actually this is supported by Eagan in "The Deadly Assassin" who talks about
Gallifran "turning away form the baren road of technology" In other words
Rassilon, Omega and a third Time Lord made a great leap in technological
progress and the Time Lords have simply been using what little they
understanstand from the Old Time.
Actually given the importance that Time Lord have for Rasilon makes such a
rewrite might makes sence. Look at the effort the the Chamberlin was willing
to go though in "The Deadly Assassin" so that people would not "loose faith
in the Time Lords or their leadership" by making Chancellor Gauth into a hero.
>2. Given the displayed powers of Rasilon, I find the idea that the
>Time Lords could seal him away succesfully somewhat laughable. If the
>Rasilon of The Five Doctors and the rest of Gallifrey went to war, my
>money would be on Rasilon.
Actually if you thing about it Rasilon is really not that powerful; he simply
absorbs the would be immortal ane likely uses his knowledge of the Timescoop
to do everything else.
>3. If the official history is accurate, than it _does_ make sense
>that the other Time Lords, their consciences eating at them, or just
>to cover up their past, would tell their own offspring later that it
>wasn't _really_ them who were the problem, it was that nasty dictator
>Rasilon. Thus does the oral history get started, with its contrarian
>interpretation.
Well I suspect that the truth is somewhere in the middle. Given that the War
Chief was able to use SIDRATs like Timescoops in "War Games" (ZZ) it doesn't
looks like the technology is not -that- hard to reproduce.
Johnny1A
Fair enough, and I probably am confusing several episodes. I watched
Dr. Who a _lot_ many years ago, and I remember the bulk of it, but I
probably am mixing and matching some of the specific story arcs.
I'm not saying my version matches the series perfectly, which isn't
possible given the inconsistencies of the series. I'm trying to
assemble something that could be used as the basis for a campaign.
>
> >There are hints that Gallifrey is a sort of republic, which means
> >there may be other bodies as well. I don't think that Gallifrey is a
> >true democracy, though. Probably more along the lines of a
> >meritocracy, where one goes through long education and training, and
> >rises (at least at the lower-mid levels) through competitive
> >examinations of one sort or another.
>
> There is no evidendence of this one way or the other.
I'm thinking of how almost every Time Lord we ever encounter seems to
have come from some sort of academic background. I recall Romana and
the Doctor discussing the oath all the young Time Lords take on
graduation from the academy, and she saying how she just mouthed the
words like everyone else. Furthermore, I always had an impression
that Time Lord society seemed rather like an overgrown university
environment.
>
> >Normally, I suspect that becoming Chancellor would mean you could
> >never be Lord President. I say this because according to _The Deadly
> >Assassin_, the Chancellor keeps the Great Key, as a preventative for a
> >Lord President having absolute power. If a Chancellor became
> >President, he'd _know_ where the Key was. Alternatively, perhaps when
> >a Chancellor becomes Lord President, the memory is erased.
>
> You are confusing "The Deadly Assassin" (4P) with "Invasion of Time" (4Z).
> The Great Key in "The Deadly Assassin" is an abolite rod carried by the
> President but then in "Invasion of Time" we see a totally different Great Key
> which is held by the Chancellor. Futhermore Chancellor Gauth's efforts to
> become President play a important role in the story of "The Deadly Assassin"
> and the Sash serves entirely different fuctions in these two episodes. In
> fact trying to make sence of "Invasion of Time" with information from "The
> Deadly Assassin" cause all kinds of continuity problems.
Granted. As I said, it isn't really _possible_ to perfectly reconcile
all the different Gallifrey episodes. Yes, I recall the two versions
of the Key. In fact, one is used to access the Eye of Harmony, and
the other to energize a superweapon. But the version where the
Chancellor holds the superweapon Key does make it iffy that he could
later be president without some sort of kludge to account for it.
>
> >The Doctor says that there are races and places with technology far
> >beyond what he is pointing at on Gallifrey. Mostly, I suspect that
> >this is hyperbole, since he was in a contentious mood just then, but
> >there probably are people with access to TL 13-14 stuff more readily
> >than most of Gallifrey.
>
> Actually this is supported by Eagan in "The Deadly Assassin" who talks about
> Gallifran "turning away form the baren road of technology" In other words
> Rassilon, Omega and a third Time Lord made a great leap in technological
> progress and the Time Lords have simply been using what little they
> understanstand from the Old Time.
That statement about 'the barren road of technology' is vague enough
that if could mean almost anything.
It wouldn't have made sense _then_. I can see a cover-up of the plots
around the Deadly Assassin. Very few people would ever have met the
Chancellor in person, or had their daily lives much affected by him.
Further, very few people would have known any details of what had been
going on anyway, making a cover-up viable.
But _everyone_ knew about the Death Zone. It was a major form of
entertainment for the early Time Lords. Further, if Rasilon was the
mastermind behind the Death Zone and the other Time Lords stopped him,
_everyone_ would have known at least some of what was going on. Thus,
creating the fake Official history would have required an improbably
large conspiracy with no sensible motivation. If everyone already
knew Rasilon was a psycho (as stated by the oral history), there would
be no _reason_ to protect his reputation, or build him up as a hero.
Nobody would have any emotional investment in him.
>
> >2. Given the displayed powers of Rasilon, I find the idea that the
> >Time Lords could seal him away succesfully somewhat laughable. If the
> >Rasilon of The Five Doctors and the rest of Gallifrey went to war, my
> >money would be on Rasilon.
>
> Actually if you thing about it Rasilon is really not that powerful; he simply
> absorbs the would be immortal ane likely uses his knowledge of the Timescoop
> to do everything else.
Rasilon, at the very least, is either immortal himself or has the
power to defy death at will. That's something the other Time Lords
_can't_ do.
The Time Scoop is controlled by physical control consoles, has a
direct and recognizable manifestation in the normal universe, and
itself requires time to operate. Furthermore, the Doctor implies that
the TARDIS could protect you from it, or at least Doctor II tells the
Brigadier: "We must get to the TARDIS!" when he realizes the Time
Scoop is being used against them.
When Rasilon decided to free the Fourth Doctor from the Time Vortex,
he needed no controls or other physical instrumentality. From the
point of view of the Time Lords and humans, he willed it and it
occured, and it was done so perfectly that Doctor IV and Romana had no
idea anything had even happened. I'm sure it's a case of Clarke's
Third Law in action, but it's not something the Time Scoop could
readily do!
Rasilon invented the technology to harness and control the Eye of
Harmony, and left it in the form of the Presidential Sash. The other
Time Lords don't know how to fix it when it is damaged, and indeed
have forgotten what it even does.
Further, harnessing and controlling a naked singularity (remember, the
Eye of Harmony is going be more massive than Gallifrey the planet)
safely on the surface of a humanoid-habitable planet is TL 16, _at
least_.
In _Shada_, the Doctor tells Romana and the Professor that Rasilon had
powers and knowledge that even the other Time Lords can barely
comprehend.
>
> >3. If the official history is accurate, than it _does_ make sense
> >that the other Time Lords, their consciences eating at them, or just
> >to cover up their past, would tell their own offspring later that it
> >wasn't _really_ them who were the problem, it was that nasty dictator
> >Rasilon. Thus does the oral history get started, with its contrarian
> >interpretation.
>
> Well I suspect that the truth is somewhere in the middle. Given that the War
> Chief was able to use SIDRATs like Timescoops in "War Games" (ZZ) it doesn't
> looks like the technology is not -that- hard to reproduce.
I have no doubt that the Time Lords could reproduce the Timescoop. It
would take more than that to put them on an even footing with Rasilon.
As far as the truth of who was at fault in the Death Zone games, I
can't see how there's much room for a middle. If Rasilon was in any
sense the villain there, then the whole cover-up to make him look like
a founding hero is pointless, since back then, there'd have been
nobody to impress with it!
Shermanlee
Bruce Grubb
sherm...@hotmail.com (Johnny1A) wrote:
>Bruce Grubb <bgr...@zianet.com> wrote in message
>news:<bgrubb-12A776....@web.zianet.com>...
>
>> In article <b3030854.01121...@posting.google.com>,
>> sherm...@hotmail.com (Johnny1A) wrote:
>
>> >2. Given the displayed powers of Rasilon, I find the idea that the
>> >Time Lords could seal him away succesfully somewhat laughable. If the
>> >Rasilon of The Five Doctors and the rest of Gallifrey went to war, my
>> >money would be on Rasilon.
>>
>> Actually if you thing about it Rasilon is really not that powerful; he
>> simply
>> absorbs the would be immortal ane likely uses his knowledge of the Timescoop
>> to do everything else.
>
>Rasilon, at the very least, is either immortal himself or has the
>power to defy death at will. That's something the other Time Lords
>_can't_ do.
Actually given events stated in "Brain of Morbius" (4K) and the way the
Master keeps going even after the end of his regeneration cycle it is
something that the Time Lords _choose_ not to do. The Doctor points out that
the Time Lords take the Elixir of Life only to help with a problemetic
regeneration - they could with a good spectragraph make gallons of the stuff
but then they would fall into the same trap the Sisterhood had. As the
Doctor points out "Death is the price of Progress" and anyone who wants to
live forever is somewhat unhindged.
>> >3. If the official history is accurate, than it _does_ make sense
>> >that the other Time Lords, their consciences eating at them, or just
>> >to cover up their past, would tell their own offspring later that it
>> >wasn't _really_ them who were the problem, it was that nasty dictator
>> >Rasilon. Thus does the oral history get started, with its contrarian
>> >interpretation.
>>
>> Well I suspect that the truth is somewhere in the middle. Given that the
>> War
>> Chief was able to use SIDRATs like Timescoops in "War Games" (ZZ) it doesn't
>> looks like the technology is not -that- hard to reproduce.
>
>I have no doubt that the Time Lords could reproduce the Timescoop. It
>would take more than that to put them on an even footing with Rasilon.
>
>As far as the truth of who was at fault in the Death Zone games, I
>can't see how there's much room for a middle. If Rasilon was in any
>sense the villain there, then the whole cover-up to make him look like
>a founding hero is pointless, since back then, there'd have been
>nobody to impress with it!
A good example from actual Earth history may servr here. Vlad II who ruled
Walachia is still beloved by his people as a great national hero but the
Protestants of his time used some of his more horrific explotes to portray
him as a completely sadistic madman. Some 400 years after his death a writer
would use the stories and Vlad's last name in his story about Vampires.
Vlad's last name was of course Dracula.
Michael Adams
Like you can maybe use the sword and push a button and it becomes a
pistol or other things. Matter transmuting can be fun.
Unless you are going for things like Light Sabers and like.
Uniforms follow two paths generally. Either function, or fashion.
So the jacket would likely be very functional, or totally fashion
looking but not very functional, other than maybe for devices and
like!?
Mike
erincss wrote:
> How do we do Gurps Doctor Who? Are the Time Lord's Tech Level 16?
>
> What would a TL 16 knife or sword look like?
> What would a TL16 gun look like?
> What would a TL 16 standard military field jacket look like?
>
> What materials would the TARDIS be made of?
>
> These and more questions need to be answered in order to do this.
--
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Then join or send to me at Adulth...@egroups.com
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Johnny1A
I recall the "Brain of Morbius", and I remember the death and progress
line, but did the Doctor himself say that they could duplicate the
elixir with a spectrascope? I don't recall him saying that.
>
>
> >> >3. If the official history is accurate, than it _does_ make sense
> >> >that the other Time Lords, their consciences eating at them, or just
> >> >to cover up their past, would tell their own offspring later that it
> >> >wasn't _really_ them who were the problem, it was that nasty dictator
> >> >Rasilon. Thus does the oral history get started, with its contrarian
> >> >interpretation.
> >>
> >> Well I suspect that the truth is somewhere in the middle. Given that the
> >> War
> >> Chief was able to use SIDRATs like Timescoops in "War Games" (ZZ) it doesn't
> >> looks like the technology is not -that- hard to reproduce.
> >
> >I have no doubt that the Time Lords could reproduce the Timescoop. It
> >would take more than that to put them on an even footing with Rasilon.
> >
> >As far as the truth of who was at fault in the Death Zone games, I
> >can't see how there's much room for a middle. If Rasilon was in any
> >sense the villain there, then the whole cover-up to make him look like
> >a founding hero is pointless, since back then, there'd have been
> >nobody to impress with it!
>
> A good example from actual Earth history may servr here. Vlad II who ruled
> Walachia is still beloved by his people as a great national hero but the
> Protestants of his time used some of his more horrific explotes to portray
> him as a completely sadistic madman. Some 400 years after his death a writer
> would use the stories and Vlad's last name in his story about Vampires.
> Vlad's last name was of course Dracula.
I'm not sure how that applies. Yes, Vlad is a hero to the Romanians,
and indeed he was then, as the national champion who also kept the
boyars in check. But in the case of Gallifrey, according to the oral
history, Rasilon was the one hosting the games and maintaining the
Death Zone. Who benefits by officially making him out as a hero, if
he was the source of the trouble? Who would gain, since everyone
already knew (at the time)?
Shermanlee
Bruce Grubb
>Bruce Grubb <bgr...@zianet.com> wrote in message
>news:<bgrubb-59B41D....@web.zianet.com>...
>> Actually given events stated in "Brain of Morbius" (4K) and the way the
>> Master keeps going even after the end of his regeneration cycle it is
>> something that the Time Lords _choose_ not to do. The Doctor points out
>> that
>> the Time Lords take the Elixir of Life only to help with a problemetic
>> regeneration - they could with a good spectragraph make gallons of the stuff
>> but then they would fall into the same trap the Sisterhood had. As the
>> Doctor points out "Death is the price of Progress" and anyone who wants to
>> live forever is somewhat unhindged.
>
>I recall the "Brain of Morbius", and I remember the death and progress
>line, but did the Doctor himself say that they could duplicate the
>elixir with a spectrascope? I don't recall him saying that.
He actually said that the chemical properties of the Elixir of Life were
within the range of *anyone* with a decent spectrascope. The Doctor makes
this comment when he is allowed to see the Flame of Life and he is commenting
on the proccess. He also states that this is why the Time Lords want to keep
the Elixir of Life a secret.
>> A good example from actual Earth history may servr here. Vlad II who ruled
>> Walachia is still beloved by his people as a great national hero but the
>> Protestants of his time used some of his more horrific explotes to portray
>> him as a completely sadistic madman. Some 400 years after his death a
>> writer
>> would use the stories and Vlad's last name in his story about Vampires.
>> Vlad's last name was of course Dracula.
>
>I'm not sure how that applies. Yes, Vlad is a hero to the Romanians,
>and indeed he was then, as the national champion who also kept the
>boyars in check. But in the case of Gallifrey, according to the oral
>history, Rasilon was the one hosting the games and maintaining the
>Death Zone. Who benefits by officially making him out as a hero, if
>he was the source of the trouble? Who would gain, since everyone
>already knew (at the time)?
I imagine that there (like in ancient Rome) were two factions of Time Lords -
those who despised the games and those who supported the Games. Now suppose
that those who despised the Games became powerful enough to defeat and
imprison Rasilon but were soon overthrown by those who supported Rasilon and
his Games. With his supporter in finally control but given the politial
problem of the Games they mothball them and create the official history with
whose who fought Rasilon portraied as the orginators of the Games.
A good example of this was with Gen Custer's wife who portraid her husband as
this great hero which didn't jive with the Indian's account. Long after her
death historians found that the version the Indian's were telling was the
correct one after which Custer was generally portaid as a glory seeking
advanturer whose Luck finaly ran out. The lastest version (Son of the
Morning Star) is a merger of thse two tradition and is probally the most
accurate version of Custer to date.
There are serveral variations both fiction and history as to how even if
Rasilon was the bad guy the official history would become abopted (see
_Fautherland_ for another examplel of hiding the truth)
Johnny1A
> >
> >I recall the "Brain of Morbius", and I remember the death and progress
> >line, but did the Doctor himself say that they could duplicate the
> >elixir with a spectrascope? I don't recall him saying that.
>
> He actually said that the chemical properties of the Elixir of Life were
> within the range of *anyone* with a decent spectrascope. The Doctor makes
> this comment when he is allowed to see the Flame of Life and he is commenting
> on the proccess. He also states that this is why the Time Lords want to keep
> the Elixir of Life a secret.
Fair enough, and that does sound sort of familiar. It's been years
since I watched it, and I couldn't remember.
>
> >> A good example from actual Earth history may servr here. Vlad II who ruled
> >> Walachia is still beloved by his people as a great national hero but the
> >> Protestants of his time used some of his more horrific explotes to portray
> >> him as a completely sadistic madman. Some 400 years after his death a
> >> writer
> >> would use the stories and Vlad's last name in his story about Vampires.
> >> Vlad's last name was of course Dracula.
> >
> >I'm not sure how that applies. Yes, Vlad is a hero to the Romanians,
> >and indeed he was then, as the national champion who also kept the
> >boyars in check. But in the case of Gallifrey, according to the oral
> >history, Rasilon was the one hosting the games and maintaining the
> >Death Zone. Who benefits by officially making him out as a hero, if
> >he was the source of the trouble? Who would gain, since everyone
> >already knew (at the time)?
>
> I imagine that there (like in ancient Rome) were two factions of Time Lords -
> those who despised the games and those who supported the Games. Now suppose
> that those who despised the Games became powerful enough to defeat and
> imprison Rasilon but were soon overthrown by those who supported Rasilon and
> his Games. With his supporter in finally control but given the politial
> problem of the Games they mothball them and create the official history with
> whose who fought Rasilon portraied as the orginators of the Games.
>
OK, this does make some sense. I find it a bit unlikely, but
certainly conceivable. But here lies the trouble: Rasilon isn't
dead, or if he is, he's a remarkably active corpse. If his supporters
retook control, why does he remain in the Dark Tower in the Death
Zone? Why would he not have reemerged?
Also, if Rasilon is such a nasty individual, why would he go to the
trouble to set up his Immortality Trap? One reason I'm inclined to
doubt the "Rasilon is a monster" theory is that that Doctor seems to
respect him, and the Doctor is not one to respect hierarchies and
traditions just for their own sake.
Shermanlee
Bruce Grubb
>Bruce Grubb <bgr...@zianet.com> wrote in message
>news:<bgrubb-988CF8....@web.zianet.com>...
>
>> I imagine that there (like in ancient Rome) were two factions of Time Lords:
>> those who despised the games and those who supported the Games. Now suppose
>> that those who despised the Games became powerful enough to defeat and
>> imprison Rasilon but were soon overthrown by those who supported Rasilon and
>> his Games. With his supporter in finally control but given the politial
>> problem of the Games they mothball them and create the official history with
>> whose who fought Rasilon portraied as the orginators of the Games.
>
>OK, this does make some sense. I find it a bit unlikely, but
>certainly conceivable. But here lies the trouble: Rasilon isn't
>dead, or if he is, he's a remarkably active corpse. If his supporters
>retook control, why does he remain in the Dark Tower in the Death
>Zone? Why would he not have reemerged?
Perhaps he couldn't emerge or didn't care one way or the other
>Also, if Rasilon is such a nasty individual, why would he go to the
>trouble to set up his Immortality Trap?
He needed somethign to occupy his time?
>One reason I'm inclined to
>doubt the "Rasilon is a monster" theory is that that Doctor seems to
>respect him, and the Doctor is not one to respect hierarchies and
>traditions just for their own sake.
True but the Doctors also 'respects' the Master and what he can do - he
doesn't treat him with the contempts he dishes out on the likes of Davos.
Also I should mention that the most flipent Doctor (the 4th) is NOT present
(due to Tom Baker not being avialable); it would have been interesting to she
how he delt with Rasilon.
JefWilson
<bgr...@zianet.com> writes:
>it would have been interesting to she
>how he delt with Rasilon.
"She?" (Wierd images of a female doctor . . . and wonder if the idea might
have saved the show. Probably not.)
(Yes, I know it was just a typo.)
Jeff A. Wilson
http://members.aol.com/JefWilson/rpg/