AD&D sucks #@!% and here's why
Jerry Kamil
could get more responses. My DM and I were flushing out a new up and coming
campaign, when the topic of martial arts came up. We ended up arguing over
how fast a bare handed attack goes. I read somewhere that a barehanded
attack goes at SF1 and feet go at SF3. I couldn't find the info to prove
it... so If anyone else has ever seen this info, please let me know! Where
you found it regardless of source would be even better.
CEvans9159
>how fast a bare handed attack goes. I read somewhere that a barehanded
>attack goes at SF1 and feet go at SF3. I couldn't find the info to prove
>it... so If anyone else has ever seen this info, please let me know! Where
>you found it regardless of source would be even better.
Per the Ninja handbook, the rules for martiart arts uses the same as the
regular punching and wrestling. (Just ass in additional rules for damage and
extra attacks and such.)
Tay-Dor
Muad´Dib The Nightbringer
could get more responses.<<
Are you satisfied???
You have already received 1 response in 2 days WOOOWWW!!!!!!!
Werebat
If you want to get responses, what you should do is something like this:
1. Choose a vaguely "Pagan"-sounding alias
2. Claim that you are an advocate of a gaming system BESIDES AD&D --
White Wolf's Vampire game would work well, for example.
3. Come off as a walking stereotype of the gamer type you claim to be,
and then deny that that stereotype exists while arguing against AD&D
by pointing out every stereotype of AD&D you can think of.
4. Post a haughtily-written, arrogant "list" of ten "proofs", all
designed to point out how AD&D is "inferior" to your gaming system. It
helps if these "proofs" actually have SOME substance to them, but
anything really concrete is not truly necessary.
If you follow these rules, you should have literally DOZENS of responses
within less than 24 hours!
- Ron ^*^
ba...@digital-marketplace.net
>
> Muad´Dib The Nightbringer wrote:
> >
> > >>Actually it doesn't suck, I just wanted more people to read this, so I
> > could get more responses.<<
> >
> > Are you satisfied???
> >
> > You have already received 1 response in 2 days WOOOWWW!!!!!!!
>
> If you want to get responses, what you should do is something like this:
>
> If you follow these rules, you should have literally DOZENS of responses
> within less than 24 hours!
>
> - Ron ^*^
*LOL*
Alas though it is tue also.
BTW I like the mpint concept you offered for the breast figther,
riding a lizzard.
Werebat
>
> Werebat wrote:
> > If you follow these rules, you should have literally DOZENS of responses
> > within less than 24 hours!
> >
> > - Ron ^*^
> *LOL*
>
> Alas though it is tue also.
> BTW I like the mpint concept you offered for the breast figther,
> riding a lizzard.
What in high holy heck is a "breast fighter"?
I'm envisioning a sort of blade-like bard character, who uses "flash and
flaire" in combat in order to... erm... "distract" her opponents...
;^)
- Ron ^*^
ba...@digital-marketplace.net
>
> ba...@digital-marketplace.net wrote:
> >
> > Werebat wrote:
>
> > > If you follow these rules, you should have literally DOZENS of responses
> > > within less than 24 hours!
> > >
> > > - Ron ^*^
> > *LOL*
> >
> > Alas though it is tue also.
> > riding a lizzard.
>
> What in high holy heck is a "breast fighter"?
>
> I'm envisioning a sort of blade-like bard character, who uses "flash and
> flaire" in combat in order to... erm... "distract" her opponents...
>
> ;^)
>
> - Ron ^*^
Autolycus
>If you want to get responses, what you should do is something like this:
>1. Choose a vaguely "Pagan"-sounding alias
>2. Claim that you are an advocate of a gaming system BESIDES AD&D --
>White Wolf's Vampire game would work well, for example.
>3. Come off as a walking stereotype of the gamer type you claim to be,
>and then deny that that stereotype exists while arguing against AD&D
>by pointing out every stereotype of AD&D you can think of.
>4. Post a haughtily-written, arrogant "list" of ten "proofs", all
>designed to point out how AD&D is "inferior" to your gaming system. It
>helps if these "proofs" actually have SOME substance to them, but
>anything really concrete is not truly necessary.
>If you follow these rules, you should have literally DOZENS of responses
>within less than 24 hours!
*WOLF* NEW IT WUZ YEW, RUM POURER YOU DISSTAB ORL *WOLF*S FRENZ SO YEW CAN
HAV SUM FUN LUCKY FOR YEW YEW are WUN ORF *WOLF*S FRENZ ORLREDDY
IT WUZ YEW ORL DA TIEM!
NEXTIEM, *WOLF* WIL EET YOUR LEETL DUMPLINGZ WUN BY WUN HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
*OGUR WOLF*
Mike Bruner
Werebat wrote:
> ba...@digital-marketplace.net wrote:
> >
> > Werebat wrote:
>
> > > If you follow these rules, you should have literally DOZENS of responses
> > > within less than 24 hours!
> > >
> > > - Ron ^*^
> > *LOL*
> >
> > Alas though it is tue also.
> > BTW I like the mpint concept you offered for the breast figther,
> > riding a lizzard.
>
> What in high holy heck is a "breast fighter"?
>
> I'm envisioning a sort of blade-like bard character, who uses "flash and
> flaire" in combat in order to... erm... "distract" her opponents...
Maybe the main character from Azure Bonds? Sure looks like it from the cover
art... :)
--
Mike Bruner...@delaware.infi.net
"Light Side, Dark Side- I'm the one with the blaster"
Jason Eric Nelson
>ba...@digital-marketplace.net wrote:
>>
>> Werebat wrote:
>
>> > If you follow these rules, you should have literally DOZENS of responses
>> > within less than 24 hours!
>> >
>> > - Ron ^*^
>> *LOL*
>>
>> Alas though it is tue also.
>> BTW I like the mpint concept you offered for the breast figther,
>> riding a lizzard.
>
>What in high holy heck is a "breast fighter"?
>
>I'm envisioning a sort of blade-like bard character, who uses "flash and
>flaire" in combat in order to... erm... "distract" her opponents...
>
Would this fall under the "Display Weapon Prowess" proficiency? Or
would that have to be for the male equivalent? If a female, would they
need "Two-Weapon Style Specialization" to use it effectively?
Just getting a few lewd chuckles at 11 at night waiting for the spousal
unit to come home from work, eh?
Jason Nelson
tja...@u.washington.edu
"Jesus wept." [probably thinking about my joke...]
Jon Inge Teigland
> In article <36E1D6...@ETAL.URI.EDU>, Werebat <HES...@ETAL.URI.EDU> wrote:
> >ba...@digital-marketplace.net wrote:
> >
> >> BTW I like the mpint concept you offered for the breast figther,
> >> riding a lizzard.
> >
> >What in high holy heck is a "breast fighter"?
> >
> >I'm envisioning a sort of blade-like bard character, who uses "flash and
> >flaire" in combat in order to... erm... "distract" her opponents...
> >
> would that have to be for the male equivalent? If a female, would they
> need "Two-Weapon Style Specialization" to use it effectively?
>
remember wrong, you never get penalties for fighting with natural
weapons.
Jon Inge Teigland
Werebat
>
> Jon Inge Teigland wrote in message...
> Jason Eric Nelson wrote:
> >> Would this fall under the "Display Weapon Prowess"
> proficiency? Or
> >> would that have to be for the male equivalent? If a female,
> would they
> >> need "Two-Weapon Style Specialization" to use it effectively?
> >>
> >I wouldn't think so. Not unless they're made of silicon. Unless
> I
> >remember wrong, you never get penalties for fighting with
> natural
> >weapons.
>
> What if they are covered with those steel Madonna Pointy cone
> Torpedo bra things? would it then require specialisation in
> another area?
I would think it reasonable to treat them as cesti (chesti?).
And this thread is getting entirely too silly.
LET'S GET BACK ON TOPIC, PEOPLE!!!
:^)
- Ron ^*^
Yehoota
:-)
Anthony Toohey
Theryn of Nowhere
Sea Wasp
Don't bust on them just because they want to keep abreast of the
situation. We should all be busom buddies here.
--
Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html
/^\
;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at
http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html
Rodney Thompson
Sea Wasp wrote in message <36E344...@wizvax.net>...
>Yehoota wrote:
>>
>> Werebat wrote in message <36E314...@ETAL.URI.EDU>...
>> >Shi Ao Tai wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Jon Inge Teigland wrote in message...
>> >> Jason Eric Nelson wrote:
>> >> >> Would this fall under the "Display Weapon Prowess"
>> >> proficiency? Or
>> >> >> would that have to be for the male equivalent? If a female,
>> >> would they
>> >> >> need "Two-Weapon Style Specialization" to use it effectively?
>> >> >>
>> >> >I wouldn't think so. Not unless they're made of silicon. Unless
>> >> I
>> >> >remember wrong, you never get penalties for fighting with
>> >> natural
>> >> >weapons.
>> >>
>> >> Would it be a Hard or soft martial arts Style?
>> >> What if they are covered with those steel Madonna Pointy cone
>> >> Torpedo bra things? would it then require specialisation in
>> >> another area?
>> >
>> >I would think it reasonable to treat them as cesti (chesti?).
>> >
>> >And this thread is getting entirely too silly.
>> >
>> You guys seriously need to get laid...
>
> Don't bust on them just because they want to keep abreast of the
>situation. We should all be busom buddies here.
>
Werebat
> Yehoota wrote:
> > Werebat wrote:
> > >I would think it reasonable to treat them as cesti (chesti?).
> > >
> > >And this thread is getting entirely too silly.
> > >
> > You guys seriously need to get laid...
>
> Don't bust on them just because they want to keep abreast of
> the
> situation. We should all be busom buddies here.
I find this thread to be quite titillating, myself. Truly, my cup
runneth over with the mounds of advice I've seen posted on this udderly
fascinating topic.
- Ron ^*^
(Hoping he hasn't seriously offended anyone with the above)
Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman
> Actually it doesn't suck, I just wanted more people to read this, so I
> could get more responses.
I know how you feel. I worked for days on the Monster Mythology-style
gods I posted, and had two people make one-sentence comments on it. Not
that I want undeserved praise heaped on it, but I had hoped for more than
this...
On the martial arts question, I believe that punches do indeed have a
speed factor of 1, and kicks an SF 2 or 3. Don't qote me on that, and I
have no idea where I came about this information.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------
| Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman |
---------------------------------
"Making the world a better place through the application of Uncle Chuck's
teachings."
Do __........__ Add
the .-' .-.|"\| |+.'-. / a
gene ." |"\|_||_/| |||\ |".,^ bucket
pool `. |_/| || \| | ||| \|.'^, of
a "-._' '| ||/ \|+_.-" \ chlorine
service... "|"|-----\"\ today!
(__/ (__/ sw/sk
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shi Ao Tai
Jason Eric Nelson wrote:
>> Would this fall under the "Display Weapon Prowess"
proficiency? Or
>> would that have to be for the male equivalent? If a female,
would they
>> need "Two-Weapon Style Specialization" to use it effectively?
>>
>I wouldn't think so. Not unless they're made of silicon. Unless
I
>remember wrong, you never get penalties for fighting with
natural
>weapons.
Would it be a Hard or soft martial arts Style?
What if they are covered with those steel Madonna Pointy cone
Torpedo bra things? would it then require specialisation in
another area?
Shi Ao Tai
Werebat
>
> > Actually it doesn't suck, I just wanted more people to read this, so I
> > could get more responses.
>
> I know how you feel. I worked for days on the Monster Mythology-style
> gods I posted, and had two people make one-sentence comments on it.
Stevil, I looked for those gods, and couldn't find them. Could you
give me a keyword to search Dejanews for?
> Not
> that I want undeserved praise heaped on it, but I had hoped for more
> than
> this...
I remember after I posted my Vampronomicon (over twenty pages of text), I
got one so-so comment and one negative one. I was pretty ripped.
:^)
- Ron ^*^
Jason Eric Nelson
Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman <smar...@ocean.otr.usm.edu> wrote:
>
>> Actually it doesn't suck, I just wanted more people to read this, so I
>> could get more responses.
>
>I know how you feel. I worked for days on the Monster Mythology-style
>that I want undeserved praise heaped on it, but I had hoped for more than
>this...
Yeh, likewise. I post reams of text on character classes & kits and get
next to bupkus (though I have gotten emails from various people), but any
post on a contentious thread (e.g., Assassins, Monks) gets a loooong
string of debate.
And then, of course, there's the 'breast fighter' thread... }:>
>On the martial arts question, I believe that punches do indeed have a
>speed factor of 1, and kicks an SF 2 or 3. Don't qote me on that, and I
>have no idea where I came about this information.
As a DM and player in 2nd Ed. games, we have always used the SF 3 for
natural attacks by a size S or M creature for any sort of punches/etc.
Of course, IMC specialization decreases your SF, so you could get it down
to 0.
Jason Nelson
tja...@u.washington.edu
"Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?" - Job 38:2
Lola Granola
YOU suck... and you probably swallow, too...
boglin
Nelson) uttered (allegedly):
>In article <36E1D6...@ETAL.URI.EDU>, Werebat <HES...@ETAL.URI.EDU> wrote:
>>ba...@digital-marketplace.net wrote:
>>>
>>> Werebat wrote:
>>
>>> > If you follow these rules, you should have literally DOZENS of responses
>>> > within less than 24 hours!
>>> >
>>> > - Ron ^*^
>>> *LOL*
>>>
>>> Alas though it is tue also.
>>> BTW I like the mpint concept you offered for the breast figther,
>>> riding a lizzard.
>>
>>What in high holy heck is a "breast fighter"?
>>
>>I'm envisioning a sort of blade-like bard character, who uses "flash and
>>flaire" in combat in order to... erm... "distract" her opponents...
>>
>>;^)
>
>Would this fall under the "Display Weapon Prowess" proficiency? Or
>would that have to be for the male equivalent? If a female, would they
>need "Two-Weapon Style Specialization" to use it effectively?
I think the male equiv. would probably leave the woman laughing so
much that she would be on the floor in hysteria - thus much easier to
attack.
boglin
arse!drink!feck!net!
Rune R Christensen
>
>> Actually it doesn't suck, I just wanted more people to read this, so I
>> could get more responses.
>
>I know how you feel. I worked for days on the Monster Mythology-style
>gods I posted, and had two people make one-sentence comments on it. Not
>that I want undeserved praise heaped on it, but I had hoped for more than
>this...
Oh come on Stevil me ol' buddy,
I loved your work. I've downloaded it and saved it in my AD&D folder for
future use (high praise as only the *very best* of the best ends up there
with out major reworking). As I said to Jason Nelson (Alpha) a few months
ago, "the work is nice and complete leaving little room for discussion.
Therefore he people of rgfd, beign the great critics and flamers that they
are, have little reason to respond." He took it to heart and decided to go
on posting his great work. You do the same, ya hear?
Rune Christensen
BTW, come back to the ChatShow, we're is missing you, Arian most of all.
Bryan J. Maloney
bog...@boglinscage.freeserve.co.uk (boglin) wrote:
> >>What in high holy heck is a "breast fighter"?
> >>
> >>I'm envisioning a sort of blade-like bard character, who uses "flash and
> >>flaire" in combat in order to... erm... "distract" her opponents...
Her name was "La Maupin" and she lived in 17th-century France. I'm not
kidding. The woman lived a life as flashy and swashbuckling as any novel
or movie. She would make her living (before being hired by the Paris
Opera), singing and giving exhibitions of fencing. On one (possibly two)
occasions, a heckler adamantly maintained that she was actually a youth
with long hair. To prove him wrong, she stripped to the waist--onstage!
This was one of her less outrageous accomplishments. She also was a
blatant bisexual (even seduced a nun--was under death sentence for a
couple of years until pardoned for that one) and "man-izer", going through
lovers like most swashbuckling male heroes went through women. Likewise,
she was a formidable duellist, killing or crippling many men in her
lifetime.
--
To women contemplating marriage: The question you should ask is not
"How much do I love him?" The real question is "How much can I
tolerate him?"
http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/bjm10/
Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman
> In article <Pine.LNX.3.96.990307...@ocean.otr.usm.edu>,
<snip whining>
>
> Yeh, likewise. I post reams of text on character classes & kits and get
> next to bupkus (though I have gotten emails from various people),
I haven't been around to read any recent ones, but I liked the ones
before. I savced a few, in fact.
> but any post on a contentious thread (e.g., Assassins, Monks) gets a
> loooong string of debate.
True enough. And you forgot crossbow damage, religion and and elves.
> And then, of course, there's the 'breast fighter' thread... }:>
Now that you've gotten that off your chest, are you happy? ;)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------
| Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman |
Jason Eric Nelson
On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman wrote:
> On 8 Mar 1999, Jason Eric Nelson wrote:
>
> > In article <Pine.LNX.3.96.990307...@ocean.otr.usm.edu>,
>
> <snip whining>
> >
> > Yeh, likewise. I post reams of text on character classes & kits and get
> > next to bupkus (though I have gotten emails from various people),
>
> I haven't been around to read any recent ones, but I liked the ones
> before. I savced a few, in fact.
If you want some more, I can add you to my 'mailing list' of people that
I send D&D stuff out to.
> > And then, of course, there's the 'breast fighter' thread... }:>
>
> Now that you've gotten that off your chest, are you happy? ;)
I'm always happy when getting off on a chest...
Jason Nelson
tja...@u.washington.edu
Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman
> Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman skrev i meddelelsen ...
No I didn't skrev i meddelelsen! They never convicted me...
<snip griping and moaning>
> Oh come on Stevil me ol' buddy, I loved your work. I've downloaded it
> and saved it in my AD&D folder for future use (high praise as only the
> *very best* of the best ends up there with out major reworking). As I
> said to Jason Nelson (Alpha) a few months ago, "the work is nice and
> complete leaving little room for discussion. Therefore he people of
> rgfd, beign the great critics and flamers that they are, have little
> reason to respond." He took it to heart and decided to go on posting his
> great work. You do the same, ya hear?
Thanks a lot, I'm glad you liked it.
I wasn't fishing for compliments so much as wanting any form of thoughtful
feedback. Critisisms are nice IMO, as others may see weakness in my work
where I don't, and this helps me improve the quality of my writing.
> BTW, come back to the ChatShow, we're is missing you, Arian most of all.
I have just recently returned from self-imposed seclusion (must... inter-
act... with... other... living... things...), and will be joining the chat
show as soon as I can sift through the 800+ messages. :)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------
| Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman |
Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman
> On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman wrote:
>
> > On 8 Mar 1999, Jason Eric Nelson wrote:
> >
> > > In article <Pine.LNX.3.96.990307...@ocean.otr.usm.edu>,
> >
> > <snip whining>
> > >
> > > Yeh, likewise. I post reams of text on character classes & kits and get
> > > next to bupkus (though I have gotten emails from various people),
> >
> > I haven't been around to read any recent ones, but I liked the ones
> > before. I savced a few, in fact.
And SAVED some, as well... :}
> If you want some more, I can add you to my 'mailing list' of people that
> I send D&D stuff out to.
Hell yeah! Hook me up, ma nigga. :)
> > > And then, of course, there's the 'breast fighter' thread... }:>
> >
> > Now that you've gotten that off your chest, are you happy? ;)
>
> I'm always happy when getting off on a chest...
Does this make him happy as well? :)
Jason Eric Nelson
On Tue, 9 Mar 1999, Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman wrote:
> On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Jason Eric Nelson wrote:
>
> > If you want some more, I can add you to my 'mailing list' of people that
> > I send D&D stuff out to.
>
> Hell yeah! Hook me up, ma nigga. :)
Bein' as ta how I go to a church with about 2-3000 darkly complected
folks, I don't necessarily appreciate the pejorative slang (though I
understand you meant it in fun).
> > > > And then, of course, there's the 'breast fighter' thread... }:>
> > >
> > > Now that you've gotten that off your chest, are you happy? ;)
> >
> > I'm always happy when getting off on a chest...
>
> Does this make him happy as well? :)
Perhaps I should have specified that the only chest I get off on is that
of my lovely wife if almost 9 years. Hers and Drew Barrymore's, anyway...
Jason Nelson
tja...@u.washington.edu
Werebat
>
> On Tue, 9 Mar 1999, Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Jason Eric Nelson wrote:
> >
> > > If you want some more, I can add you to my 'mailing list' of people that
> > > I send D&D stuff out to.
> >
> > Hell yeah! Hook me up, ma nigga. :)
>
> Bein' as ta how I go to a church with about 2-3000 darkly complected
> folks, I don't necessarily appreciate the pejorative slang (though I
> understand you meant it in fun).
I work with Black, White, Brown, and other sorts of people all day. I
find the word "nigger" to be a bit classless, especially when used AS a
pejorative... But to each his own.
What makes me curious is that you claim to dislike its use specifically
because you go to a church with "dark" folks (Loth-worship?). Why,
exactly, would this bother you BECAUSE of that?
I could understand, perhaps, if you WERE Black -- but then again, I've
seen plenty of Blacks use that word without blinking. And Stevil may BE
Black.
*I* may be Black.
- Ron ^*^
Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman
> On Tue, 9 Mar 1999, Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Jason Eric Nelson wrote:
> >
> > > If you want some more, I can add you to my 'mailing list' of people that
> > > I send D&D stuff out to.
> >
> > Hell yeah! Hook me up, ma nigga. :)
>
> Bein' as ta how I go to a church with about 2-3000 darkly complected
> folks, I don't necessarily appreciate the pejorative slang (though I
> understand you meant it in fun).
Being I hang out with many of similarly complected individuals, and that
we use the term with one another, I don't have this weirdness about it
that everyone does. I know I don't mean it in a racist sense, and from
what you said in your response you know I didn't too. Knowing this,
what's the problem?
Also, I'll be more careful with my slang from now on. I've had this
discussion before...
> > > > > And then, of course, there's the 'breast fighter' thread... }:>
> > > >
> > > > Now that you've gotten that off your chest, are you happy? ;)
> > >
> > > I'm always happy when getting off on a chest...
> >
> > Does this make him happy as well? :)
>
> Perhaps I should have specified that the only chest I get off on is that
> of my lovely wife if almost 9 years. Hers and Drew Barrymore's, anyway...
Two years so far, myself...
And of all women, *Drew Barrymore*?! Oh-kaaay... :)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------
| Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman |
Patrick M. Berry
> Being I hang out with many of similarly complected individuals, and that
> we use the term with one another, I don't have this weirdness about it
> that everyone does. I know I don't mean it in a racist sense, and from
> what you said in your response you know I didn't too. Knowing this,
> what's the problem?
The other six billion or so people who may or may not be reading this
newsgroup, some of whom are guaranteed *not* to know how you meant it.
Michael Scott Brown
>> Being I hang out with many of similarly complected individuals, and that
>> we use the term with one another, I don't have this weirdness about it
>> that everyone does. I know I don't mean it in a racist sense, and from
>> what you said in your response you know I didn't too. Knowing this,
>> what's the problem?
If you can't figure that out, you have a serious socialization problem.
Hint: there *is no sense* for that term that isn't racist. Just
because you might use it in jest doesn't make it any less
of a racist jest. And therefore extremely offensive.
-Michael
Jason Eric Nelson
On Tue, 9 Mar 1999, Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Mar 1999, Jason Eric Nelson wrote:
> > >
> > > > If you want some more, I can add you to my 'mailing list' of people that
> > > > I send D&D stuff out to.
> > >
> > > Hell yeah! Hook me up, ma nigga. :)
> >
> > Bein' as ta how I go to a church with about 2-3000 darkly complected
> > folks, I don't necessarily appreciate the pejorative slang (though I
> > understand you meant it in fun).
>
> Being I hang out with many of similarly complected individuals, and that
> we use the term with one another, I don't have this weirdness about it
> that everyone does. I know I don't mean it in a racist sense, and from
> what you said in your response you know I didn't too. Knowing this,
> what's the problem?
>
> Also, I'll be more careful with my slang from now on. I've had this
> discussion before...
We've both had it many times before, I'm sure. I guess I call it the
"In Living Color" or "Stepanfetchit" principle--if people see or hear
pandering/stereotypical behavior in *any* context, many of them will
tend to think it is okay in *every* context, and I don't think that
you, I, or anyone in our respective circles of interaction would like
to see that type of thing come into common parlance.
> > > > > > And then, of course, there's the 'breast fighter' thread... }:>
> > > > >
> > > > > Now that you've gotten that off your chest, are you happy? ;)
> > > >
> > > > I'm always happy when getting off on a chest...
> > >
> > > Does this make him happy as well? :)
> >
> > Perhaps I should have specified that the only chest I get off on is that
> > of my lovely wife if almost 9 years. Hers and Drew Barrymore's, anyway...
>
> Two years so far, myself...
>
> And of all women, *Drew Barrymore*?! Oh-kaaay... :)
With Drew, it's not so much the chest, because she's not 'spectacularly
endowed' in that sort of a way. I dunno--as John Cage would say: "I am
drawn to that woman." I've just always been real sweet on her.
For more neck-down consideration, I suppose I would have to think of
Halle Berry, Racquel Welch, Ursula Andress (Un-dress, please!), Demi
Moore, Jennifer Lopez, Tia Carrere, Tyra Banks (she says they're
real--*shyeah*, as IF, that would mean 30% of her total body mass is
contained within two discrete entities--I don't think that's what the good
Lord intended--but wherever they came from, they can stay right where
they are as far as I'm concerned...), Iman, Cindy Crawford, Vanessa
Williams, Jamie Lee Curtis, Elizabeth Hurley, Nancy Travis, Portia di
Rossi, Lucy Liu, Courtney Thorne-Smith, etc.
Jason Nelson
tja...@u.washington.edu
"Who is this that keeps talking about girlie stuff?" - me
Jason Eric Nelson
>Jason Eric Nelson wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 9 Mar 1999, Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > > If you want some more, I can add you to my 'mailing list' of people that
>> > > I send D&D stuff out to.
>> >
>> > Hell yeah! Hook me up, ma nigga. :)
>>
>> Bein' as ta how I go to a church with about 2-3000 darkly complected
>> folks, I don't necessarily appreciate the pejorative slang (though I
>> understand you meant it in fun).
>
>find the word "nigger" to be a bit classless, especially when used AS a
>pejorative... But to each his own.
I find it classless regardless of use. However, I also think banning
or editing/etc. of literary works that contain the word is silly and
anti-historical. What, if kids never read (umm, I think it's one of
Mark Twain's books--Huck Finn or Tom Sawyer or something) then they
will think that segregation/reconstruction/slavery never happened?
It's rather like the hue and cry that was raised when Disney's
_Pocahontas_ came out, surrounding the attitudes of the English
vs. the natives & vice-versa. Many people (including the wife of the
now-retired pastor at our church, a noted local educator) came out
and condemned the movie, which I actually thought did a pretty fair
job of describing the attitudes of many Europeans toward the American
natives (and of the natives vs. the Europeans). Just because it
wasn't nice doesn't mean it didn't happen.
A distinction can and should be drawn, however, between historical
fact and current/modern conduct. Just because we don't like the words
Twain used 100 years ago doesn't mean that his books are crap (though
I have never read one--maybe they *are* crap!). Contrarywise, just
because Twain used a certain turn of phrase 100 years ago doesn't
mean that we should use it today.
>What makes me curious is that you claim to dislike its use specifically
>because you go to a church with "dark" folks (Loth-worship?).
Well, if you use the illustrations on the 1986 vintage GDQ1-7 compilation,
then we are talking about the right color. As far as _black_ skinned,
then no...
>Why, exactly, would this bother you BECAUSE of that?
I suppose it is because IME there are disproportionately few women and
non-whites among internet users. I don't claim to have any real numbers
on this, but just from the white vs. non-white & male vs. female people
I have known over the past dozen years or so in which I have been
involved with electronic media-like this. Thus, I figger *somebody*
ought to go ahead and make the statement.
>I could understand, perhaps, if you WERE Black -- but then again, I've
>seen plenty of Blacks use that word without blinking.
That's very true. Unfortunately for them, many people see/hear that
and think to themselves, "What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the
gander" (or the more hip-modern equivalent--I myself am stuck somewhere
between the 700's and the '70s!). Thus IMO use of this sort of verbiage
(and not just among blacks, but also among Asians IME (my wife is
Japanese-American)) promotes the idea that 'it's no big deal'.
>And Stevil may BE Black.
>
>*I* may be Black.
To the extent that 'black' refers to 'secret operations', I suppose you
must be the *KING* (or queen, for all we know, RHONDA) of 'black'-ness!
Jason Nelson
tja...@u.washington.edu
Werebat
>
> >In article <Pine.LNX.3.96.990309...@ocean.otr.usm.edu>, Lord Stevil
> >> Being I hang out with many of similarly complected individuals, and that
> >> we use the term with one another, I don't have this weirdness about it
> >> that everyone does. I know I don't mean it in a racist sense, and from
> >> what you said in your response you know I didn't too. Knowing this,
> >> what's the problem?
>
>
> Hint: there *is no sense* for that term that isn't racist. Just
> because you might use it in jest doesn't make it any less
> of a racist jest. And therefore extremely offensive.
Not so.
When I was at school, our class president was Black (he is dead now,
regrettably, of pneumonia -- but I digress). I had some friends who were
Irish, Italian, and what-have-you... Routinely, these people (who were
friends) would pass each other in the hallways and blurt out ethnic slurs
in greeting to one another.
"Hey, ya moolie, how ya doin'?"
"Not bad, ya stinkin' wop!"
Etc. etc. etc.
I somehow found it extremely heartening that these words were being used
in such a manner. They were so obviously NOT meant in a derogatory
manner that they had lost all of their old power.
In a perfect world (I realize that this is not always attainable), words
like these SHOULD be used as friendly greetings. Burying them and
pretending they don't exist by not using them doesn't make them any less
powerful -- warping them into something friendly most assuredly DOES.
(And if you believe, as I partly do [tongue-in-cheek], that there are
demons associated with them, you understand that those demons writhe in
agony as their swords are beaten into plowshares, rather than simply
being stockpiled somewhere...)
Just my two cents.
- Ron ^*^
Werebat
>
> In article <36E5AD...@ETAL.URI.EDU>, Werebat <HES...@ETAL.URI.EDU> wrote:
> >I work with Black, White, Brown, and other sorts of people all day. I
> >find the word "nigger" to be a bit classless, especially when used AS a
> >pejorative... But to each his own.
>
> I find it classless regardless of use. However, I also think banning
> or editing/etc. of literary works that contain the word is silly and
> anti-historical. What, if kids never read (umm, I think it's one of
> Mark Twain's books--Huck Finn or Tom Sawyer or something) then they
> will think that segregation/reconstruction/slavery never happened?
Certainly a danger. It's amazing how many people think that "Uncle Tom's
Cabin" is a White Supremacist book.
> It's rather like the hue and cry that was raised when Disney's
> _Pocahontas_ came out, surrounding the attitudes of the English
> vs. the natives & vice-versa. Many people (including the wife of the
> now-retired pastor at our church, a noted local educator) came out
> and condemned the movie, which I actually thought did a pretty fair
> job of describing the attitudes of many Europeans toward the American
> natives (and of the natives vs. the Europeans). Just because it
> wasn't nice doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Absolutely.
Although most NA folk I have spoken with seem to despise Disney's
"Pocahontas".
> A distinction can and should be drawn, however, between historical
> fact and current/modern conduct. Just because we don't like the words
> Twain used 100 years ago doesn't mean that his books are crap (though
> I have never read one--maybe they *are* crap!).
They most certainly are *not* crap. Go out and read Huck Finn right now,
young man!!!
:^)
Seriously, that book contains one of the most poignant literary scenes
that I have ever read. Huck helps Jim escape the South and his "owner",
but truly BELIEVES that to do so is EVIL. He has been taught that God is
GOOD, and that God HATES stealing, and that helping Jim escape amounts to
stealing. Huck doesn't care much because he figures he is EVIL anyway,
and is going to HELL no matter what, so he agrees to help his friend.
I sometimes feel moved by acts of self-sacrifice on the part of people
who stand to gain nothing by their actions... But Huck's sacrifices in
that story are (in his opinion) only going to help damn him to HELL.
What does one make of that? It's very moving.
> Contrarywise, just
> because Twain used a certain turn of phrase 100 years ago doesn't
> mean that we should use it today.
Absolutely. Banning Huck Finn is PC nonsense at its worst, and an
admission that Americans are too damn stupid to realize that the book is
not racist at best.
> >*I* may be Black.
>
> To the extent that 'black' refers to 'secret operations', I suppose you
> must be the *KING* (or queen, for all we know, RHONDA) of 'black'-ness!
SHH!!!
- Ronnie ^*^
Jason Eric Nelson
>Jason Eric Nelson wrote:
>>
>> In article <36E5AD...@ETAL.URI.EDU>, Werebat <HES...@ETAL.URI.EDU> wrote:
>
>> >I work with Black, White, Brown, and other sorts of people all day. I
>> >find the word "nigger" to be a bit classless, especially when used AS a
>> >pejorative... But to each his own.
>>
>> I find it classless regardless of use. However, I also think banning
>> or editing/etc. of literary works that contain the word is silly and
>> anti-historical. What, if kids never read (umm, I think it's one of
>> Mark Twain's books--Huck Finn or Tom Sawyer or something) then they
>> will think that segregation/reconstruction/slavery never happened?
>
>Certainly a danger. It's amazing how many people think that "Uncle Tom's
>Cabin" is a White Supremacist book.
Yet another American Lit book I never read. I was always more of an
English Lit/Shakespeare guy (as far as English goes, anyway--my degree
is in History (mainly military history, the Near East/Mediterranean/Balkans,
and WWI/WWII) and I've been in grad school off and on in Education since
then--now in Educational Leadership & Policy Studies), but not having
read it doesn't mean I don't know how Harriet Beecher Stowe & her little
book fit into American History.
I will always have a special spot in my heart for history stuff,
and historically ignorant rants annoy me. Denial is not just a river
in Egypt, and if you just sweep everything under the rug and pretend
it never happened yer jest askin' fer trubble IMO.
>Although most NA folk I have spoken with seem to despise Disney's
>"Pocahontas".
Yeh. Lots of people despise Disney for a lot of reasons. My take
on Disney is that I generally like their stuff. My wife had never
been to Disneyland before, but we went with our daughter (who was
2 at the time) two years ago, and my wife (who went not really
knowing what to expect as to whether she would like it) had a
really great time. For whatever you want to say about how venal,
corrupt, mercenary, protectionistic, etc. that Disney is--and most
of those things are true--they have figured out a good angle on
how to appeal to people, and in my book anybody who can make
stuff that is that much flat-out fun and enjoyable can't be *ALL*
bad.
That stated, I am glad that Disney's attempt to build a pseudo-
American history-based theme park in Virginia got shot down (this
was about five or six years ago, I think). I am sure they would have
made a good-faith effort at making the park more or less true to
history as they understood it, but understanding something from a
marketing perspective is maybe not quite the type of understanding
we are looking for! (How's that, an English minor guy ending
sentences with a preposition... ) Any outfit that has the Little
Mermaid marry the prince at the end instead of dissolving into
sea-foam and being lost forever just can't be trusted with our
nation's history...
>> A distinction can and should be drawn, however, between historical
>> fact and current/modern conduct. Just because we don't like the words
>> Twain used 100 years ago doesn't mean that his books are crap (though
>> I have never read one--maybe they *are* crap!).
>
>They most certainly are *not* crap. Go out and read Huck Finn right now,
>young man!!!
Sure. Right after I finish my textbook reading from last quarter, the
couple of hundred history books I've bought over the last dozen years
that seemed very interesting at the time but have gathered dust on the
shelves ever since (well, most of 'em anyway), the piles of D&D stuff
that I've never quite gotten around to reading all the way through,
my latest class/kit recompilation, and whatever else I've forgotten
'cuz my brain was too full.
Honestly though, I'll probably read 'em someday. Just not anytime soon.
[snip interesting and historically/culturally appropriate scene from
Huck Finn]
>What does one make of that? It's very moving.
Yep. It's a classic case of conflicting moral imperatives caused by
the temporal corruption of the church. My wife just did a seminary
paper on Bartolome de Las Casas, a Spanish priest who arrived in
Hispaniola in 1502, participated in the conquest of Cuba in 1512,
and was awarded a land-grant and a bunch of slaves along with, but
a few years later he gave up his slaves and spent the rest of his
life working to protect the Indians. The modern Spanish kingship
after the reconquest sought to crush dissension by strong missionary
action and religious intolerance in support of the monarchy, both
at home and in the colonies, and this sort of 'crusader spirit'
didn't die out in Spain in the 16th century. In areas where the
church is strong and aligned with the government, it has been
used as a tool to spiritually vindicate/certify/exonerate/approve
the state's position. The American colonies that later became the
good old USA ran the gamut from mercantile fur-trading colonies
to penal colonies, but there was a strong missionary/crusader
element or ethos present in just about all of them--the mindset
of cultural, moral, and spiritual superiority that presupposed
rectitude of thought and action and made almost inconceivable
the questioning of norms of action that included oppressing or
exploiting 'the brown races'.
>> Contrarywise, just
>> because Twain used a certain turn of phrase 100 years ago doesn't
>> mean that we should use it today.
>
>Absolutely. Banning Huck Finn is PC nonsense at its worst, and an
>admission that Americans are too damn stupid to realize that the book is
>not racist at best.
But by the same token seeing a word or phrase in a literary work
from another age does not grant immediate license to start spouting
off whatever it is without the possibility of facing public dis-
approval or censure for your actions or words. Whether we deem it
acceptable in our current culture to use certain words or phrases
(like chink, wop, gook, jigaboo, redskin, nigger, etc.--to say
nothing of even more absurd terms, like 'spear-chucker' or 'camel
jockey')--and my POV is that we shouldn't--the fact remains that
many people in the past (and still today) *DID* use precisely
those words and many more besides. To pretend that they didn't
is not only stupid but IMO wrong. To celebrate the fact that they
did so would be equally wrong. How do you walk that fine line--
informing (or making available information) without endorsing?
That's the 64 million dollar question.
>> >*I* may be Black.
>>
>> To the extent that 'black' refers to 'secret operations', I suppose you
>> must be the *KING* (or queen, for all we know, RHONDA) of 'black'-ness!
>
>SHH!!!
>
> - Ronnie ^*^
Spector. Be my, be my little baby. Baby my da-ar-lin. Whoah-oh-oh-oh-ohhoh.
Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman
> >In article <Pine.LNX.3.96.990309...@ocean.otr.usm.edu>, Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman <smar...@ocean.otr.usm.edu> writes:
> >> Being I hang out with many of similarly complected individuals, and that
> >> we use the term with one another, I don't have this weirdness about it
> >> that everyone does. I know I don't mean it in a racist sense, and from
> >> what you said in your response you know I didn't too. Knowing this,
> >> what's the problem?
>
> If you can't figure that out, you have a serious socialization problem.
I was asking what the problem was as far as *he* was concerned.
> Hint: there *is no sense* for that term that isn't racist.
Bullshit. Perhaps not for you. Some of us realize that words have no
meaning beyond that given to them by their users; just because someone
uses a partucular word in a negative way doesn't mean I can't use the N
word in a way that isn't racist. "Fuck you," delivered with a smile to a
friend is much different than the "fuck you" I would use when addressing a
foe.
> Just
> because you might use it in jest doesn't make it any less
> of a racist jest. And therefore extremely offensive.
Tell my friend Carlos, a black man, that when he calls me his ***** that
he's being racist. And I know for a fact, when I return his mock insults,
that I am not using it in a racial sense. Tell Snoop Doggy Dogg when he
talks about his ****** on the street that he's being a racist.
You could say any of these things, but you'd be lying.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------
| Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman |
Michael Scott Brown
>> If you can't figure that out, you have a serious socialization problem.
>
>I was asking what the problem was as far as *he* was concerned.
And my observation still stands. You ought to know already.
>> Hint: there *is no sense* for that term that isn't racist.
>
>Bullshit. Perhaps not for you. Some of us realize that words have no
>meaning beyond that given to them by their users; just because someone
>uses a partucular word in a negative way doesn't mean I can't use the N
>word in a way that isn't racist. "Fuck you," delivered with a smile to a
>friend is much different than the "fuck you" I would use when addressing a
>foe.
You have missed the point below completely.
>> Just because you might use it in jest doesn't make it any less
>> of a racist jest. And therefore extremely offensive.
While some people choose not to be offended by a racist jest from
certain persons, that doesn't in any way eliminate its racist nature.
Calling your friends "nigga" essentially makes light of the former
oppression experienced by blacks in america. It *is* a racist joke
(Notice how offensive it would be if an 'unauthorized' person made such
a comment).
Now, I'm not saying that such commentary *makes you* a racist or
implies that you are automatically being a bigot for engaging in it.
But I *am* pointing out that such language is divisive, repulsive,
and totally lacking in classs.
-Michael
krysta...@my-dejanews.com
While the argument of whether "being a nigga" is proper, and a rich
discussion, I think I'll pass. I will however say that this PC pill the world
seems to be on nowadays is getting monotonous, at best. At it's worst, it
implies censorship over freedom of speech, and quite possibly, the end of
creative thought.
I'm suddenly reminded of a little known book, 1984, I think it was...
and the BIG BRO' is a comin...but don't worry, he's my nigga, we used to go
trollin for bitches....
;)
Where's BRUTHA CHUNK when you need him???
krysta...@hotspamwhichmail.com
And in case your wondering, I grew up in Detroit, around some of the most
tolerant people in the world when it comes to skin color. So if you think I'm
racist, that's your decision...stick with it.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Jason Eric Nelson
>
>
>> Hint: there *is no sense* for that term that isn't racist.
>
>Bullshit. Perhaps not for you. Some of us realize that words have no
>meaning beyond that given to them by their users; just because someone
>uses a partucular word in a negative way doesn't mean I can't use the N
>word in a way that isn't racist. "Fuck you," delivered with a smile to a
>friend is much different than the "fuck you" I would use when addressing a
>foe.
In many ways, I'm an old-fashioned prude, and I don't care for much for
the use of profanity, either (although I do occasionally use the word
'crap', but only in honor of Thomas Crapper, the inventor of the flush
toilet... ).
>> Just
>> because you might use it in jest doesn't make it any less
>> of a racist jest. And therefore extremely offensive.
>
>Tell my friend Carlos, a black man, that when he calls me his ***** that
>he's being racist. And I know for a fact, when I return his mock insults,
>that I am not using it in a racial sense. Tell Snoop Doggy Dogg when he
>talks about his ****** on the street that he's being a racist.
>
>You could say any of these things, but you'd be lying.
Whether they are being racist or not, I would accuse them of using uncouth
language. YMMV. Also, as I noted in another post, by the 'Stepanfetchit'
principle many people will see the use of a certain pattern of behavior or
language in use in a particular situation and generalize that to other
situations. To many, by all rights a thing that is okay in *any* context
is probably okay in *every* (or at least in *other*) contexts.
It could also be argued that anyone who takes this view of interactions
is a moral imbecile who is being intentionally dense and obtuse, but consider
you and your friend Carlos calling one another your 'nigga' and then another
person who is walking by (who doesn't know either of you) hears your exchange
and decides that is an acceptable way to address him & you and begins to
use that turn of phrase in addressing you and/or Carlos. Is there any
problem with that?
More to the point, our fictional person X sees Snoop's
latest video on MTV (assuming they still play music videos--it seemed like
they mostly have special shows on nowadays) and hears and sees this and
decides that must be the 'new way' to refer to blacks and starts using it.
Izzat okay?
I guess the crux of the issue is whether we assume that every American (or
every person, since this is an international forum) has enough moral or
interpersonal sophistication or insight to be able to know when it is or
is not appropriate to use nominally offensive terms. Is it always a
'just-between-friends' exchange? Are their bounded social circumstances
in which it becomes okay for peripheral acquaintances to use them? Is
it limited to people _within_ a particular slurred group to use nominal
pejoratives amongst themselves? I head down to church (or the neighborhood
around it, or some function with people I know from there) and start throwing
around the N-word amongst my friends, should I expect them to be okay with
that, because 'I just meant it in fun' and 'They know me' and 'I'm obviously
not being racist about it'?
These are some of the questions. I thought we weren't going to get into
a big discussion about it, but here we are...
By the way, just for your elucidation:
I am 28 and white (1/4 Danish, 1/4 Scots, 1/4 English (maybe a sprinkling
of Irish in there), 1/4 Belgian (my wife says French, but I'll deny it to
my dying breath!). My wife is 34 and Japanese-American (her mom came over
when she was around 18, her dad's family has been in the US about 4 or 5
generations). Thus, my kids are mixed Euro-Asian.
I grew up mostly in Snohomish County, which is the county immediately to
the north of King County (where Seattle is located) and lived in a lot of
rural areas. Snohomish County is very conservative and has relatively
few minorities (save for some of the suburban communities in the southern
part of the county, near Seattle). As a kid, we were generally pretty
poor (never more than about 25-30,000 family income for a family of 5)
and often got free/reduced lunch/milk at school and occasional food
bank/government cheese & stuff, though I did not feel we lacked for
being able to do a lot of things (my middle brother apparently feels
differently)--always plenty of books, took trips in the car, we even
went to Disneyland *twice*.
Anyway, though I was born in Seattle most of my upringing was in a
conservative, blue-collar, rural, overwhelmingly white area. I heard
many ethnic slurs as a kid but had little understanding of what they
meant or even that they had anything to do with anyone (e.g., 'nigger-
knocking', whereby you would knock on someone's door and then run
away and hide and wait for them to open the door and find no one
there; lots of ethnic-related jokes, most having to do with 'niggers'
or 'Polocks', neither of which I had more than a vague idea of what
they were).
At age 8, I started working ahead in school, doing above-grade-level
stuff. I ended up not skipping 4th grade, after some discussion about
it, but at age 10 in 5th grade I was IQ tested and scored 171 and
started taking 8th and 9th grade classes part of the day the 2nd semester.
At age 11, I attended the Early Entrance Program at the UW for a year
but returned to junior high/high school thereafter. I graduated HS at
age 15 and then went back to the UW.
I have two brothers. One is adopted and is gay, handicapped, and a (mostly)
recovering drug addict. He is 32. My other brother is 30 (almost 31) and
is a gay-hating (well, actually, he's bigoted against pretty much everybody)
alcoholic pseudo-fundamentalist (I say pseudo because he doesn't seem to
have much insight into Christian theology outside the Books of Revelation
and Deuteronomy, and not much there) who has disowned the rest of the family
because he doesn't like us.
My church (Mount Zion Baptist Church, Seattle, WA--we have a website, and you
can probably find a copy of our Young Adult Ministry newsletter, which I write,
in the monthly Zionews section of the website) is around 97% black. The church
was founded in 1890 and is one of the oldest predominantly black churches in
the Pacific Northwest. I am active in the Young Adult Ministry and the church
Feeding Ministry, plus I sing in the Brotherhood Chorus (mostly 'negro'
spirituals and some classical stuff), Sanctuary Choir (likewise, but a
mixed SSAATTBB choir), and Inspirational Chorus (more jazzy gospel music).
I have also in the past worked with the Youth with Values project, the
Membership Ministry, the Campus Outreach Ministry, and I even sang with the
Women's Chorus one year. My wife and I joined Mount Zion in September of
1989.
I work as a full-time homemaker (that is, taking care of the kids), so I don't
have demographic information on my job other than that of my family. I am
also a graduate student at the University of Washington in the Department of
Educational Leadership and Policy Studies. Like most of the UW, the Dept.
is predominantly white--I don't have the numbers, but I would say about
75% white, maybe 80%.
Anyway, this is a distillation of the demographics of my life-pattern, so
that you can get a little sense of who I am and where I am coming from
when I talk about discrimination issues.
Balor
@ Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman <smar...@ocean.otr.usm.edu> wrote:
@ >> If you can't figure that out, you have a serious socialization
@ problem.
@ >
@ >I was asking what the problem was as far as *he* was concerned.
@
@ And my observation still stands. You ought to know already.
@
@ >> Hint: there *is no sense* for that term that isn't racist.
@ >
@ >Bullshit. Perhaps not for you. Some of us realize that words have no
@ >meaning beyond that given to them by their users; just because someone
@ >uses a partucular word in a negative way doesn't mean I can't use the N
@ >word in a way that isn't racist. "Fuck you," delivered with a smile to a
@ >friend is much different than the "fuck you" I would use when addressing a
@ >foe.
You don't get it... "fuck you," even when in JEST, is not exactly a phrase you
use in front of polite, varied company. Despite the rather... interesting
USENET members... you should really assume that you are in polite, varied
company here... not all of whom will know it's "okay" for you to use certain
terminology.
However, considering this post deals with racial epithets... I'm half
Vietnamese. Do you think I'd DARE call one of my Vietnamese friends a "gook"
in front of ANYONE but them? I know in some places that even though I look
fairly Asian, I'd get beat... and not because the other half of me is
Causcasian... you just don't say some things in front of the world at large.
It's demeaning, it's cheap, and it makes light of some things that really
shouldn't be made light of.
@ You have missed the point below completely.
@
@ >> Just because you might use it in jest doesn't make it any less
@ >> of a racist jest. And therefore extremely offensive.
@
@ While some people choose not to be offended by a racist jest from
@ certain persons, that doesn't in any way eliminate its racist nature.
@ Calling your friends "nigga" essentially makes light of the former
@ oppression experienced by blacks in america. It *is* a racist joke
@ (Notice how offensive it would be if an 'unauthorized' person made
@ such a comment).
Exactly... without getting into the long, droll "plight of the ancestors" that
may or may not be pertinent, depending on your world view, basically if it's
something that someone not of your race that said it, and it'd be greatly
offensive, you really shouldn't be joking about it, even among peoples of a
similar ethnicity. Again, I wouldn't say "gook" or "honkey" in any polite
company (or impolite company for that matter...)... it's just wrong. If some
non-Vietnamese guy came up to me and called me a "gook," I'm likely going to
get rather... brash. Why is it suddenly okay if it's from
someone "authorized?" All it does is perpetuate the stupidity. And that's
the last thing we need more of in this world -- stupidity.
@ Now, I'm not saying that such commentary *makes you* a racist or
@ implies that you are automatically being a bigot for engaging in it.
@ But I *am* pointing out that such language is divisive, repulsive,
@ and totally lacking in classs.
And likely to get you a beating...
Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman
> Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman <smar...@ocean.otr.usm.edu> wrote:
> >> If you can't figure that out, you have a serious socialization problem.
> >
> >I was asking what the problem was as far as *he* was concerned.
>
> And my observation still stands. You ought to know already.
I don't like your tone of voice, cracka. :}
> >> Hint: there *is no sense* for that term that isn't racist.
> >
> >Bullshit. Perhaps not for you. Some of us realize that words have no
> >meaning beyond that given to them by their users; just because someone
> >uses a partucular word in a negative way doesn't mean I can't use the N
> >word in a way that isn't racist. "Fuck you," delivered with a smile to a
> >friend is much different than the "fuck you" I would use when addressing a
> >foe.
>
> You have missed the point below completely.
I shall read it again, then...
> >> Just because you might use it in jest doesn't make it any less
> >> of a racist jest. And therefore extremely offensive.
>
> While some people choose not to be offended by a racist jest from
> certain persons, that doesn't in any way eliminate its racist nature.
> Calling your friends "nigga" essentially makes light of the former
> oppression experienced by blacks in america. It *is* a racist joke
> (Notice how offensive it would be if an 'unauthorized' person made such
> a comment).
I see your point here.
>
> Now, I'm not saying that such commentary *makes you* a racist or
> implies that you are automatically being a bigot for engaging in it.
Okay, then. I appreciate your clearing that up.
> But I *am* pointing out that such language is divisive, repulsive,
> and totally lacking in classs.
Though I'm mostly in agreement with your posts (now that I properly
understand the first one), I disagree that *all* use of the language is
improper and "without class". (I might be a divisive and repulsive person
who totally lacking in class, but not because of this IMO.). Carlos is a
nice, respectful and decent guy, and when we sit around and bullshit with
one another and use of the N word occurs, this should not reflect badly on
either of us.
However, my use of it in the presence of virtual strangers (such as every-
one on Usenet), does. I was trying to send mail to Nelson directly and
didn't mean to post it to the group; even then, it's inappropriate as I
don't know Nelson that well.
My apologies to all on the news group, I admit my wrongness, and also to
you Micheal--my response was more harsh than it should have been.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------
| Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman |
Werebat
> The American colonies that later became the
> good old USA ran the gamut from mercantile fur-trading colonies
> to penal colonies, but there was a strong missionary/crusader
> element or ethos present in just about all of them--the mindset
> of cultural, moral, and spiritual superiority that presupposed
> rectitude of thought and action and made almost inconceivable
> the questioning of norms of action that included oppressing or
> exploiting 'the brown races'.
Little Rhode Island, while hardly angelic, was also one of the more
freedom-loving, open-minded, and accepting states.
It had to be!
- Ron ^*^
(Bred & Born in "Rogue's Island")
Michael Scott Brown
>My apologies to all on the news group, I admit my wrongness, and also to
Fair enough. No actual harm was done ... it's just one of those
things about which some among us <sheepish grin> are hypervigilant.
Ok. Group hugs all around, and back to our regularly scheduled
flaming and maiming!
-Michael
Werebat
You told him to go away.
- Ron ^*^
Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman
<snip of attributions and text>
> In many ways, I'm an old-fashioned prude, and I don't care for much for
> the use of profanity, either (although I do occasionally use the word
> 'crap', but only in honor of Thomas Crapper, the inventor of the flush
> toilet... ).
*Blanches at the use of the word cr*p.* Well, I never...
> >Tell my friend Carlos, a black man, that when he calls me his ***** that
> >he's being racist. And I know for a fact, when I return his mock insults,
> >that I am not using it in a racial sense. Tell Snoop Doggy Dogg when he
> >talks about his ****** on the street that he's being a racist.
> >
> >You could say any of these things, but you'd be lying.
>
> Whether they are being racist or not, I would accuse them of using
> uncouth language. YMMV. Also, as I noted in another post, by the
> 'Stepanfetchit' principle many people will see the use of a certain
> pattern of behavior or language in use in a particular situation and
> generalize that to other situations. To many, by all rights a thing
> that is okay in *any* context is probably okay in *every* (or at least
> in *other*) contexts.
Good point.
> It could also be argued that anyone who takes this view of interactions
> is a moral imbecile who is being intentionally dense and obtuse, but
> consider you and your friend Carlos calling one another your 'nigga' and
> then another person who is walking by (who doesn't know either of you)
> hears your exchange and decides that is an acceptable way to address him
> & you and begins to use that turn of phrase in addressing you and/or
> Carlos. Is there any problem with that?
I guess there would be, but he'd learn his lesson pretty quickly...
> More to the point, our fictional person X sees Snoop's latest video on
> MTV (assuming they still play music videos--it seemed like they mostly
> have special shows on nowadays) and hears and sees this and decides that
> must be the 'new way' to refer to blacks and starts using it. Izzat
> okay?
Sure. I'd bring a chair and popcorn. :) Actually, that would suck.
> I guess the crux of the issue is whether we assume that every American
> (or every person, since this is an international forum) has enough moral
> or interpersonal sophistication or insight to be able to know when it is
> or is not appropriate to use nominally offensive terms. Is it always a
> 'just-between-friends' exchange?
For me it is, always. Carlos, Money and Tania are the only people I feel
comfortable enough to play around with like that. (BTW, they started it
with me first!) :)
> Are their bounded social circumstances in which it becomes okay for
> peripheral acquaintances to use them? Is it limited to people _within_
> a particular slurred group to use nominal pejoratives amongst them-
> selves? I head down to church (or the neighborhood around it, or some
> function with people I know from there) and start throwing around the
> N-word amongst my friends, should I expect them to be okay with that,
> because 'I just meant it in fun' and 'They know me' and 'I'm obviously
> not being racist about it'?
I guess your better judgement should be used in cases such as this, which
doesn't apply to those without common sense. And I have to admit a lack
of such on my part here: I wanted to reply to you directly and didn't mean
to post it on Usenet, and should have been more careful. And I should not
have used the word in addressing you in the first place, as I didn't know
you well enough to judge whether you'd find it offensive.
> These are some of the questions. I thought we weren't going to get into
> a big discussion about it, but here we are...
What discussion? :)
> By the way, just for your elucidation:
>
> I am 28 and white (1/4 Danish, 1/4 Scots, 1/4 English (maybe a sprinkling
> of Irish in there), 1/4 Belgian (my wife says French, but I'll deny it to
> my dying breath!). My wife is 34 and Japanese-American (her mom came over
> when she was around 18, her dad's family has been in the US about 4 or 5
> generations). Thus, my kids are mixed Euro-Asian.
Cool. I am one quarter Norweigian, one quarter Germanic Jew, and the
remaining half is mostly German, Irish and English. There is a smattering
of black African and (I think) Native American way back in there too.
Also, I have one pointed ear and like prancing through flowers when no one
is looking, so I'm sure there's some elf in there too. :}
> I grew up mostly in Snohomish County, which is the county immediately to
> the north of King County (where Seattle is located) and lived in a lot
> of rural areas. Snohomish County is very conservative and has
> relatively few minorities (save for some of the suburban communities in
> the southern part of the county, near Seattle). As a kid, we were
> generally pretty poor (never more than about 25-30,000 family income for
> a family of 5) and often got free/reduced lunch/milk at school and
> occasional food bank/government cheese & stuff, though I did not feel we
> lacked for being able to do a lot of things (my middle brother
> apparently feels differently)--always plenty of books, took trips in the
> car, we even went to Disneyland *twice*.
It's good that you found contentment where others would not (such as your
brother). The thing is, those who can't find happiness with little
generally won't find it when they have a lot.
> Anyway, though I was born in Seattle most of my upringing was in a
> conservative, blue-collar, rural, overwhelmingly white area. I heard
> many ethnic slurs as a kid but had little understanding of what they
> meant or even that they had anything to do with anyone (e.g., 'nigger-
> knocking', whereby you would knock on someone's door and then run away
> and hide and wait for them to open the door and find no one there; lots
> of ethnic-related jokes, most having to do with 'niggers' or 'Polocks',
> neither of which I had more than a vague idea of what they were).
*Rolls eys.* Sort of like "Indian giving". We gave their own land back to
the Natives in bits and pieces, and then we took it when it suited us. A
better example of hypocracy there isn't.
> At age 8, I started working ahead in school, doing above-grade-level
> stuff. I ended up not skipping 4th grade, after some discussion about
> it, but at age 10 in 5th grade I was IQ tested and scored 171 and
> started taking 8th and 9th grade classes part of the day the 2nd
> semester. At age 11, I attended the Early Entrance Program at the UW
> for a year but returned to junior high/high school thereafter. I
> graduated HS at age 15 and then went back to the UW.
Nice story, and though I risk offending you, was it really necessary to
point out your IQ? How is it relevant to the discussion at all?
> I have two brothers. One is adopted and is gay, handicapped, and a
> (mostly) recovering drug addict. He is 32. My other brother is 30
> (almost 31) and is a gay-hating (well, actually, he's bigoted against
> pretty much everybody) alcoholic pseudo-fundamentalist (I say pseudo
> because he doesn't seem to have much insight into Christian theology
> outside the Books of Revelation and Deuteronomy, and not much there) who
> has disowned the rest of the family because he doesn't like us.
It's his loss, not the family's.
> My church (Mount Zion Baptist Church, Seattle, WA--we have a website,
> and you can probably find a copy of our Young Adult Ministry newsletter,
> which I write, in the monthly Zionews section of the website) is around
> 97% black. The church was founded in 1890 and is one of the oldest
> predominantly black churches in the Pacific Northwest. I am active in
> the Young Adult Ministry and the church Feeding Ministry, plus I sing in
> the Brotherhood Chorus (mostly 'negro' spirituals and some classical
> stuff), Sanctuary Choir (likewise, but a mixed SSAATTBB choir), and
> Inspirational Chorus (more jazzy gospel music). I have also in the past
> worked with the Youth with Values project, the Membership Ministry, the
> Campus Outreach Ministry, and I even sang with the Women's Chorus one
> year. My wife and I joined Mount Zion in September of 1989.
Good for you. It's nice when people find their place with God.
> I work as a full-time homemaker (that is, taking care of the kids), so I
> don't have demographic information on my job other than that of my
> family.
Which is an honorable and essential profession. Male homemakers *rule*.
> I am also a graduate student at the University of Washington in the
> Department of Educational Leadership and Policy Studies. Like most of
> the UW, the Dept. is predominantly white--I don't have the numbers, but
> I would say about 75% white, maybe 80%.
>
> Anyway, this is a distillation of the demographics of my life-pattern,
> so that you can get a little sense of who I am and where I am coming
> from when I talk about discrimination issues.
Okay. :)
Breakdown of my life: Was born in Arizona and spent time there and New
Mexico as a baby; I learned a little Navajo as a baby (though I remember
none of it). My first memories are of Mississippi, where my mother and I
moved after she split with my asshole dad.
My dad kidnapped me when I was five and spirited me away to Florida, where
I stayed until my dad tired of me when I was nine (my mom's family was
legally unable to get me back). I went to live with my brother in
Louisiana for a while, then moved to Mississippi to live with mom again
(finally).
I consistantly flunked every grade since the 8th, and dropped out of
school when I was 19 and in a 10th grade home room (though I was in 11th
grade English class). Back in Florida, I remember I was in some special
education class. I know this invalidates everything I've ever said about
anything, but I really don't care.
I voluntarily checked into Ms. State Hospital because I was weak and
"depressed". I got out of the hellhole in about a month; once I saw
people who had real problems, I quit feeling sorry for myself with a
quickness. Aaaawwwww, poor me. :)
Did nothing with my life for a while, then got my GED. I got into college
a few years ago, and then got married. My future membership in both of
these institutions is currently in question.
And so here I am.
So I feel this extensive, stable, scholastically-intense background
qualifies me as an expert on everything. :)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------
| Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman |
Werebat
> In many ways, I'm an old-fashioned prude, and I don't care for much for
> the use of profanity, either (although I do occasionally use the word
> 'crap', but only in honor of Thomas Crapper, the inventor of the flush
> toilet... ).
Gahhh...
You've just struck a pet peeve there, friend. *I* happen to dislike the
word "crap". I find it to be quite boorish, disgusting, and
inappropriate to use around children. I think it was considered that
way in my house as I was growing up.
Anyway, that word seems to have somehow snuck into the vernacular as an
"OK" swear word. I don't know when I first noticed this, but I do
remember a friend of mine (who is still a good friend) admonishing me for
using the word "ass" around children he was babysitting for. Now, IMO,
"ass" is a perfectly acceptable word -- as in "jackass" or "braying
jackass". Mr. Rogers used it, for crying out loud. In any event, this
friend gave me the High Horse look, told me I shouldn't USE that word
around the kids, and got down and did his little Superior Dance. Then he
proceeded to use the word "crap" later in our conversation. I told him
my opinion about THAT word, and he looked blankly at me before vocally
doubting my sanity. "There's nothing wrong with that word!"
Since then, I have come across a number of people who felt that
"ass" (meaning, "donkey") was a BAD word, and "crap" (meaning,
"shit") was OK.
There's a lesson there, somewhere, about majority vs. minority opinions
and the folly of human nature. Me, I take part of it to mean, "no matter
what other people say when they are IN the minority, everyone believes
that it is OK to screw (or ignore) the minority."
> I guess the crux of the issue is whether we assume that every American (or
> every person, since this is an international forum) has enough moral or
> interpersonal sophistication or insight to be able to know when it is or
> is not appropriate to use nominally offensive terms.
Nope. Americans, and people in general, are dumber than toast.
- Ron ^*^
Werebat
Hispanic friends Wops, Kikes, and Chinks, and my Black friends Honkeys,
Russkies, and Polaks. Close friends who are Asians should always be
referred to as Niggers, Micks, or Camel Jockeys.
I have no clue what to call the Cape Verdeans, though.
:^)
Granted, in the company of those who do not know you well, it is probably
unwise to go tossing ethnic slurs around... But I *still* believe that
in a perfect world, this would be done, rather than burying the terms
altogether (for the neglected and forgotten is never really destroyed).
Maybe it's just the gnome in me.
- Ron ^*^
Jason Eric Nelson
On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman wrote:
> Jason Eric Nelson vehemently spewed forth profane proclamations thusly:
>
> > In many ways, I'm an old-fashioned prude, and I don't care for much for
> > the use of profanity, either (although I do occasionally use the word
> > 'crap', but only in honor of Thomas Crapper, the inventor of the flush
> > toilet... ).
>
> *Blanches at the use of the word cr*p.* Well, I never...
Yeah, but only in honor of my favorite historical inventor... }:>
[snip 'Stepanfetchit' principle and commentary]
> Good point.
[snip stuff on when it is and is not appropriate to call someone
a 'nigga' (or analogous presumptive slur)]
> > Are their bounded social circumstances in which it becomes okay for
> > peripheral acquaintances to use them? Is it limited to people _within_
> > a particular slurred group to use nominal pejoratives amongst them-
> > selves? I head down to church (or the neighborhood around it, or some
> > function with people I know from there) and start throwing around the
> > N-word amongst my friends, should I expect them to be okay with that,
> > because 'I just meant it in fun' and 'They know me' and 'I'm obviously
> > not being racist about it'?
>
> I guess your better judgement should be used in cases such as this, which
> doesn't apply to those without common sense. And I have to admit a lack
> of such on my part here: I wanted to reply to you directly and didn't mean
> to post it on Usenet, and should have been more careful. And I should not
> have used the word in addressing you in the first place, as I didn't know
> you well enough to judge whether you'd find it offensive.
Well, we know each other's life history now, so I guess you could
use it now if you wanted! }:>
> > By the way, just for your elucidation:
> >
> > I am 28 and white (1/4 Danish, 1/4 Scots, 1/4 English (maybe a sprinkling
> > of Irish in there), 1/4 Belgian (my wife says French, but I'll deny it to
> > my dying breath!). My wife is 34 and Japanese-American (her mom came over
> > when she was around 18, her dad's family has been in the US about 4 or 5
> > generations). Thus, my kids are mixed Euro-Asian.
>
> Cool. I am one quarter Norweigian, one quarter Germanic Jew, and the
> remaining half is mostly German, Irish and English. There is a smattering
> of black African and (I think) Native American way back in there too.
> Also, I have one pointed ear and like prancing through flowers when no one
> is looking, so I'm sure there's some elf in there too. :}
Funny, one of my ears is a little pointed and the other isn't, which I
guess means I'm either a fleshy-headed mutant (a la Bob & Doug McKenzie)
or else a half-elf. I should stick with the latter, I think...
> > I grew up mostly in Snohomish County, which is the county immediately to
> > the north of King County (where Seattle is located) and lived in a lot
> > of rural areas. Snohomish County is very conservative and has
> > relatively few minorities (save for some of the suburban communities in
> > the southern part of the county, near Seattle). As a kid, we were
> > generally pretty poor (never more than about 25-30,000 family income for
> > a family of 5) and often got free/reduced lunch/milk at school and
> > occasional food bank/government cheese & stuff, though I did not feel we
> > lacked for being able to do a lot of things (my middle brother
> > apparently feels differently)--always plenty of books, took trips in the
> > car, we even went to Disneyland *twice*.
>
> It's good that you found contentment where others would not (such as your
> brother). The thing is, those who can't find happiness with little
> generally won't find it when they have a lot.
Yeah. My wife is a psychiatrist and an ordained minister and works two
jobs, one in the local county hospital ER working with (mostly) indigent
crazy people (and she used to work at the state's psychiatric prison) and
her other job is a part-time private practice in an office that mostly
serves an affluent clientele. There's unhappy people all over the place,
and money doesn't make much difference.
> > Anyway, though I was born in Seattle most of my upringing was in a
> > conservative, blue-collar, rural, overwhelmingly white area. I heard
> > many ethnic slurs as a kid but had little understanding of what they
> > meant or even that they had anything to do with anyone (e.g., 'nigger-
> > knocking', whereby you would knock on someone's door and then run away
> > and hide and wait for them to open the door and find no one there; lots
> > of ethnic-related jokes, most having to do with 'niggers' or 'Polocks',
> > neither of which I had more than a vague idea of what they were).
>
> *Rolls eys.* Sort of like "Indian giving". We gave their own land back to
> the Natives in bits and pieces, and then we took it when it suited us. A
> better example of hypocracy there isn't.
Though I heard (and used, for that matter [hides head in shame]) that
phrase as a kid, I had no idea just how ironic it was until I started
learning about American History--the irony of whites using a phrase like
that is palpable.
> > At age 8, I started working ahead in school, doing above-grade-level
> > stuff. I ended up not skipping 4th grade, after some discussion about
> > it, but at age 10 in 5th grade I was IQ tested and scored 171 and
> > started taking 8th and 9th grade classes part of the day the 2nd
> > semester. At age 11, I attended the Early Entrance Program at the UW
> > for a year but returned to junior high/high school thereafter. I
> > graduated HS at age 15 and then went back to the UW.
>
> Nice story, and though I risk offending you, was it really necessary to
> point out your IQ? How is it relevant to the discussion at all?
I suppose it's because in the rural community where I live that test (and
the stuff that followed after) were strangely coincident with my
transformation from 'one of the smart kids in class (whose mom is a really
mean bus driver)' to 'an egghead weirdo'. It was the point at which I
stepped outside the bounds of accepted usual kid-dom (at least in my
community) and entered into at least borderline pariah status. The kids
my age thought I was a nutcase. The older kids I was in class with
thought pretty much the same. All of this is the 'typical' reaction--of
course there were exceptions--in my community it was generally considered
'uncool' to be 'smart'. I went from being marginally stigmatized because
we were 'outsiders' in the community (i.e., not born there) and having a
mom who was a school bus driver to being heavily stigmatized for being
'different'--and not (perceived) as 'different in a good way'.
In a curious turn of fate, it was right around this same time that I
discovered D&D...
> > I have two brothers. One is adopted and is gay, handicapped, and a
> > (mostly) recovering drug addict. He is 32. My other brother is 30
> > (almost 31) and is a gay-hating (well, actually, he's bigoted against
> > pretty much everybody) alcoholic pseudo-fundamentalist (I say pseudo
> > because he doesn't seem to have much insight into Christian theology
> > outside the Books of Revelation and Deuteronomy, and not much there) who
> > has disowned the rest of the family because he doesn't like us.
>
> It's his loss, not the family's.
My thoughts are similar, though my biggest beef with the whole situation
comes from the fact that, as a kid, we were never super-close with our
extended family (cousins, etc.), and I always had a dream of my kids
having cousins and uncles and aunts and such that they would see regularly
and grow up together with. My brother has two kids (one conceived and
born since the 'great schism'), and his older daughter (about halfway
between the ages of my kids) and my daughter had started getting to know
one another and bond together. We still have pictures. I am mostly sad
for their loss. As for my brother, it has been many years since I have
enjoyed hanging around with him (he is generally a rude, crass individual,
besides being bigoted up the wazoo and IMO theologically bankrupt), so in
a sense for *me* it was almost a relief not to have to feel obligated to
hang around with him due to family ties and all. Not to sound
hard-hearted or bitter or anything, 'cuz it's not the sort of thing you
would ever want to have happen in your family, even if you didn't
particularly like your sibling.
[snip stuff about church]
> > I work as a full-time homemaker (that is, taking care of the kids), so I
> > don't have demographic information on my job other than that of my
> > family.
>
> Which is an honorable and essential profession. Male homemakers *rule*.
Yup. My wife says it's the most 'called' thing she's ever seen me do. I
must say that I have a much greater empathy for so-called 'classic
homemaker complaints' (isolation from other adults chief among them) than
I did before I started doing this two years ago. But overall I like it.
Among other things, it leaves time to goof around on the 'net instead of
doing housework!!!
Plus, I'm an *awesome* cook, and it gives me a chance to have a hot,
home-cooked meal on the table for the chief breadwinner of the house when
*SHE* gets home from work! (When I feel like cooking anyway; otherwise,
it's Tony's pizza... )
> Breakdown of my life: Was born in Arizona and spent time there and New
> Mexico as a baby; I learned a little Navajo as a baby (though I remember
> none of it). My first memories are of Mississippi, where my mother and I
> moved after she split with my asshole dad.
>
> My dad kidnapped me when I was five and spirited me away to Florida, where
> I stayed until my dad tired of me when I was nine (my mom's family was
> legally unable to get me back). I went to live with my brother in
> Louisiana for a while, then moved to Mississippi to live with mom again
> (finally).
Sounds like not much fun.
> I consistantly flunked every grade since the 8th, and dropped out of
> school when I was 19 and in a 10th grade home room (though I was in 11th
> grade English class). Back in Florida, I remember I was in some special
> education class. I know this invalidates everything I've ever said about
> anything, but I really don't care.
>
> I voluntarily checked into Ms. State Hospital because I was weak and
> "depressed". I got out of the hellhole in about a month; once I saw
> people who had real problems, I quit feeling sorry for myself with a
> quickness. Aaaawwwww, poor me. :)
I have only been just over the border into Miss. (while I was in Memphis
one time), but I know the state psych. hospitals in Tennessee (where I
lived for 13 months) are not exactly the Ritz, and there are a lot of
nutty people around, not just up here in the Evergreen State...
> Did nothing with my life for a while, then got my GED. I got into college
> a few years ago, and then got married. My future membership in both of
> these institutions is currently in question.
Well, I hope sort out your membership questions in a positive and healthy
fashion on both counts.
> And so here I am.
>
> So I feel this extensive, stable, scholastically-intense background
> qualifies me as an expert on everything. :)
Works fer me! By the way, do you actually have a parakeet, or is that
just a nom de plume? And is Stevil after 'Bitter Stevil' in KoDT or is
there another source? (Tjaden Ludendorff was my first D&D character, a
Paladin of Thor (of all deities), with the names drawn from All Quiet on
the Western Front, which I was reading in 8th or 9th grade English class
(that year when I was sort of still in 5th grade and steadily getting
ostracized by most of my classmates)).
ta...@tecinfo.com
> On Tue, 9 Mar 1999, Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman wrote:
> >
> > Hell yeah! Hook me up, ma nigga. :)
>
> Bein' as ta how I go to a church with about 2-3000 darkly complected
> folks, I don't necessarily appreciate the pejorative slang (though I
> understand you meant it in fun).
What makes you think Stevil isn't black? It's "universally accepted" that
they can call each other "nigger" (or some variant thereof) freely.
I think white folk are just jealous that the only slang words that pertain
to themselves are "honky" and "cracker" (or something equally lame).
- Graey
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
plaidranch.org/~slayer sla...@plaidranch.org
www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/posting-rules/ www.newbiesguide.com/
Robert Baldwin
wrote:
>Myself, I prefer to call my White friends Gooks, Spics, and Jiggaboos, my
>Hispanic friends Wops, Kikes, and Chinks, and my Black friends Honkeys,
>Russkies, and Polaks. Close friends who are Asians should always be
>referred to as Niggers, Micks, or Camel Jockeys.
Yeah, well, that's about the level of low-brow *crap* we'd expect from
a friggin' half-breed flying rodent with multiple personalities!
;-)
--
Saint Baldwin, definer of the unholy darkspawn.
"Everyone dies someday; the trick is doing it well."
"Don't be so open minded that your brains fall out" [MSB].
-
Spam Satan! www.sluggy.com
Remove the spam-block to reply
Jason Eric Nelson
>freedom-loving, open-minded, and accepting states.
>
>It had to be!
>
> - Ron ^*^
>
>(Bred & Born in "Rogue's Island")
IIRC the founders of the Rhode Island colony got booted out of Plymouth/
Massachusetts Colony by the Puritans for not buying into their religious
intolerance gig. People talk about the Pilgrims moving out of England
to escape religious persecution, but they forget that the Pilgrims had
gotten booted out of England (sort of) and then were close to getting run
out of the Netherlands for their smug (some would say seditious) sense of
ethical/moral rectitude and their desire to inflict that on others; thus,
their desire to found a new colony was not to enable the free practice of
religion, but rather the 'free' practice of *THEIR* religion.
Hey, I gotta use my history degree SOMEWHERE (though American History
is not my strongest area)!
Jason Eric Nelson
>> the use of profanity, either (although I do occasionally use the word
>> 'crap', but only in honor of Thomas Crapper, the inventor of the flush
>> toilet... ).
>
>
>You've just struck a pet peeve there, friend. *I* happen to dislike the
>word "crap". I find it to be quite boorish, disgusting, and
>inappropriate to use around children. I think it was considered that
>way in my house as I was growing up.
Yeah, I know it's a bad word, so usually I use 'poopoo' or 'doodoo' or some
such. I think my kids (4 and 1) are rubbing off on me. Perhaps I put this
in so as to assuage any concern that I was setting myself up as some perfect
anti-profanity saint. I don't care much for it, but even I myself
*OCCASIONALLY* (as you see above) let one slip out, which is most often
'crap', which as you state below seems to have become a 'borderline-okay'
word that used to be a 'naughty swear word'. I would say that 'bitch'
is probably in the same boat; likewise 'bastard'. As a kid, these words
were no-nos. I recall being quite scandalized sometime in the 80s when
I first heard the word 'bitch' uttered on public TV (by Madge Sinclair,
who had gotten a role on Dynasty that she described as being maybe 'TV's
first black bitch').
>There's a lesson there, somewhere, about majority vs. minority opinions
>and the folly of human nature. Me, I take part of it to mean, "no matter
>what other people say when they are IN the minority, everyone believes
>that it is OK to screw (or ignore) the minority."
Natch. One thing you learn studying history (if you are paying any kind
of attention) is that history is written by the WINNERS. Nobody gives
a *CRAP* what Hermann Goering thought of WWII. His side went down and went
down HARD, so *WE* are the ones who decide what is and is not a war crime.
Hence (not to defend Goering or the Luftwaffe or the Nazis or anything
like that, but look at the numbers) the bombing of London and other civilian
targets in summer of 1940 is a war crime, but the bombing of Dresden and
Hamburg, etc., etc. are not.
>> I guess the crux of the issue is whether we assume that every American (or
>> every person, since this is an international forum) has enough moral or
>> interpersonal sophistication or insight to be able to know when it is or
>> is not appropriate to use nominally offensive terms.
>
>Nope. Americans, and people in general, are dumber than toast.
My line has always been: "You can never go too far wrong overestimating the
stupidity of the American public." But maybe I'm a cynic... (Of course, I
voted for William Jefferson Clinton *TWICE*, so maybe I'm living proof!)
Werebat
>
> In article <36E6F8...@ETAL.URI.EDU>, Werebat <HES...@ETAL.URI.EDU> wrote:
> >Jason Eric Nelson wrote:
> >
> >freedom-loving, open-minded, and accepting states.
> >
> >It had to be!
> >
> > - Ron ^*^
> >
> >(Bred & Born in "Rogue's Island")
>
> IIRC the founders of the Rhode Island colony got booted out of Plymouth/
> Massachusetts Colony by the Puritans for not buying into their religious
> intolerance gig.
Yup. Roger Williams was not a popular guy in Mass., and for a time
it was legal for residents of either colony to shoot residents of
the other colony if they saw them on their land.
> thus,
> their [ the Pilgrims'] desire to found a new colony was not to enable the free practice of
> religion, but rather the 'free' practice of *THEIR* religion.
Yup. Roger Williams DID take that ideal of religious freedom to heart,
though. The First Baptist Church in America (where I was married) was
founded by him (the Baptists later split into American Baptists, who
disapproved of slavery, and Southern Baptists, who thought slavery was
OK, sometime around the Civil War.
Then there is the story of Thomas Dorr, a Rhode Islander who pushed for
"Universal Voting" over one hundred years before it actually happened.
Dorr organized a campaign that came close to storming the state house
(then in Newport) and taking it by force, but the "attack" itself sort of
fizzled. Dorr and his supporters believed in giving the vote to ALL
adult people (the poor, women, Blacks, etc.).
One of Dorr's semi-detractors claimed, "I can deal with letting the
niggers vote, but not the damned Irish!"
- Ron ^*^
Patrick M. Berry
> I think white folk are just jealous that the only slang words that pertain
> to themselves are "honky" and "cracker" (or something equally lame).
Not at all; we're also gringos.
---
Pat Berry, melanin-challenged person
Jason Eric Nelson
>Jason Eric Nelson wrote:
>>
>> In article <36E6F8...@ETAL.URI.EDU>, Werebat <HES...@ETAL.URI.EDU> wrote:
>> >Jason Eric Nelson wrote:
>
>Yup. Roger Williams was not a popular guy in Mass., and for a time
>it was legal for residents of either colony to shoot residents of
>the other colony if they saw them on their land.
LOL!
>> thus,
>> their [ the Pilgrims'] desire to found a new colony was not to enable the free practice of
>> religion, but rather the 'free' practice of *THEIR* religion.
>
>Yup. Roger Williams DID take that ideal of religious freedom to heart,
>though. The First Baptist Church in America (where I was married) was
>founded by him (the Baptists later split into American Baptists, who
>disapproved of slavery, and Southern Baptists, who thought slavery was
>OK, sometime around the Civil War.
Yup, that's about the size of it. The fragmentation has continued
over the years--National Baptists, etc.
>Then there is the story of Thomas Dorr, a Rhode Islander who pushed for
>"Universal Voting" over one hundred years before it actually happened.
>Dorr organized a campaign that came close to storming the state house
>(then in Newport) and taking it by force, but the "attack" itself sort of
>fizzled. Dorr and his supporters believed in giving the vote to ALL
>adult people (the poor, women, Blacks, etc.).
Yeah, people often forget that even the idea of 'Universal Manhood
Suffrage' (just letting all white men vote) is in and of itself a
pretty new idea--mid to late 1800's IIRC in most of Europe and the
US. Prior to that, there were generally education, wealth, and/or land
ownership requirements.
>One of Dorr's semi-detractors claimed, "I can deal with letting the
>niggers vote, but not the damned Irish!"
Double LOL!
Jason Eric Nelson
Patrick M. Berry <ber...@aur.alcatel.com> wrote:
>In article <Pine.BSF.3.96.99031...@d3.k2-2.tecinfo.com>, ta...@tecinfo.com writes:
>
>> I think white folk are just jealous that the only slang words that pertain
>> to themselves are "honky" and "cracker" (or something equally lame).
>
>Not at all; we're also gringos.
Doesn't 'gavacho' apply to whites as well?
In a sense, 'haole' can also be applied generally to whites. As I understand
it it refers more generally to anybody from the mainland (i.e., not Hawaii),
though I think it is most often referent to whites.
Werebat
> Yeah, people often forget that even the idea of 'Universal Manhood
> Suffrage' (just letting all white men vote) is in and of itself a
> pretty new idea--mid to late 1800's IIRC in most of Europe and the
> US. Prior to that, there were generally education, wealth, and/or land
> ownership requirements.
It is a bit frightening that our nation has only recently become a "True"
Democracy (allowing the vote for all) for about fifty years or so.
Hardly a "tried and true" system of government, eh?
- Ron ^*^
Bruce L Grubb
The US has NEVER been a "True" Democracy (where everyone -directly- votes
on all major issues of the country). If you really get down it the
closest "True" Democracy was ancient Athens, Greece about 3,000 years ago.
All modern "Democracies" are in reality Republics because it is simply
impractical to have a Democracy above the city level. The reason is that
the average person simply does not have the time or resorces to be up to
date on -every- state issue so they instead select a represenative who in
theory does all this.
Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman
<Sir Snip-a-Lot was here>
> > And I should not have used the word in addressing you in the first
> > place, as I didn't know you well enough to judge whether you'd find it
> > offensive.
>
> Well, we know each other's life history now, so I guess you could
> use it now if you wanted! }:>
Heh. :)
<snip>
> > Also, I have one pointed ear and like prancing through flowers when no one
> > is looking, so I'm sure there's some elf in there too. :}
>
> Funny, one of my ears is a little pointed and the other isn't, which I
> guess means I'm either a fleshy-headed mutant (a la Bob & Doug McKenzie)
> or else a half-elf. I should stick with the latter, I think...
Which ear is it, the right? If so, I think we have a matched set...
<snip>
> > It's good that you found contentment where others would not (such as
> your > brother). The thing is, those who can't find happiness with
> little > generally won't find it when they have a lot.
>
> Yeah. My wife is a psychiatrist and an ordained minister and works two
> jobs, one in the local county hospital ER working with (mostly) indigent
> crazy people (and she used to work at the state's psychiatric prison)
> and her other job is a part-time private practice in an office that
> mostly serves an affluent clientele. There's unhappy people all over
> the place, and money doesn't make much difference.
True, true. BTW, I didn't know women could be ordained ministers. I'm
glad to hear they can be.
> > *Rolls eys.* Sort of like "Indian giving".
> > We gave their own land back to the Natives in bits and pieces, and
> > then we took it when it suited us. A better example of hypocracy
> > there isn't.
>
> Though I heard (and used, for that matter [hides head in shame]) that
> phrase as a kid, I had no idea just how ironic it was until I started
> learning about American History--the irony of whites using a phrase like
> that is palpable.
Or rather, the founders of this nation moreso than whites in general. But
yeah, it's funny. The poor Godless savages didn't deserve that. }:)
<snip>
> > Nice story, and though I risk offending you, was it really necessary to
> > point out your IQ? How is it relevant to the discussion at all?
>
> I suppose it's because in the rural community where I live that test
> (and the stuff that followed after) were strangely coincident with my
> transformation from 'one of the smart kids in class (whose mom is a
> really mean bus driver)' to 'an egghead weirdo'. It was the point at
> which I stepped outside the bounds of accepted usual kid-dom (at least
> in my community) and entered into at least borderline pariah status. The
> kids my age thought I was a nutcase. The older kids I was in class with
> thought pretty much the same. All of this is the 'typical' reaction--of
> course there were exceptions--in my community it was generally
> considered 'uncool' to be 'smart'. I went from being marginally
> stigmatized because we were 'outsiders' in the community (i.e., not born
> there) and having a mom who was a school bus driver to being heavily
> stigmatized for being 'different'--and not (perceived) as 'different in
> a good way'.
Hmmm. I'm sensitive to IQ-quoting because it's done with such regularity
on Usenet, and especially on r.g.f.d.. People whip out their IQs and SAT
scores (which get progressively larger and larger with each poster) and
their measuring sticks. I was making sure your quoting wasn't done in
that vein.
> In a curious turn of fate, it was right around this same time that I
> discovered D&D...
I was a late gamer, myself--about 19 or 20.
<snip of account of fundamentalist bigot brother snubbing his family>
> > It's his loss, not the family's.
>
> My thoughts are similar, though my biggest beef with the whole situation
> comes from the fact that, as a kid, we were never super-close with our
> extended family (cousins, etc.), and I always had a dream of my kids
> having cousins and uncles and aunts and such that they would see
> regularly and grow up together with. My brother has two kids (one
> conceived and born since the 'great schism'), and his older daughter
> (about halfway between the ages of my kids) and my daughter had started
> getting to know one another and bond together. We still have pictures.
> I am mostly sad for their loss. As for my brother, it has been many
> years since I have enjoyed hanging around with him (he is generally a
> rude, crass individual, besides being bigoted up the wazoo and IMO
> theologically bankrupt), so in a sense for *me* it was almost a relief
> not to have to feel obligated to hang around with him due to family ties
> and all. Not to sound hard-hearted or bitter or anything, 'cuz it's not
> the sort of thing you would ever want to have happen in your family,
> even if you didn't particularly like your sibling.
Don't feel guilty for disliking a jerk, even if he happens to be related
to you. I care nothing for family, personally--or rather, my love isn't
based on genetic similarity. I don't care about the members of my family
that I have little to do with, and don't feel that I should just because
they're related--for example, I feel little loyalty toward my father.
Conversely, I love some people who I have no relation to as if they were
siblings. I love those that love me, and if I found out tomorrow I was
adopted I can't see how it would change how I feel about anyone. Of
course, I am hard-hearted and bitter, so I guess that helps.
> [snip stuff about church]
>
> > > I work as a full-time homemaker (that is, taking care of the kids), so I
> > > don't have demographic information on my job other than that of my
> > > family.
> >
> > Which is an honorable and essential profession. Male homemakers *rule*.
>
> Yup. My wife says it's the most 'called' thing she's ever seen me do.
> I must say that I have a much greater empathy for so-called 'classic
> homemaker complaints' (isolation from other adults chief among them)
> than I did before I started doing this two years ago. But overall I
> like it. Among other things, it leaves time to goof around on the 'net
> instead of doing housework!!!
I should be a house-husband, then. I've discovered recently that I prefer
solitude to the company of others most of the time.
> Plus, I'm an *awesome* cook, and it gives me a chance to have a hot,
> home-cooked meal on the table for the chief breadwinner of the house
> when *SHE* gets home from work! (When I feel like cooking anyway;
> otherwise, it's Tony's pizza... )
I cook okay (when I feel like doing it).
> > Breakdown of my life: Was born in Arizona and spent time there and New
> > Mexico as a baby; I learned a little Navajo as a baby (though I remember
> > none of it). My first memories are of Mississippi, where my mother and I
> > moved after she split with my asshole dad.
> >
> > My dad kidnapped me when I was five and spirited me away to Florida, where
> > I stayed until my dad tired of me when I was nine (my mom's family was
> > legally unable to get me back). I went to live with my brother in
> > Louisiana for a while, then moved to Mississippi to live with mom again
> > (finally).
>
> Sounds like not much fun.
Many people have had it a lot, lot worse than I; believe me, I'm not
whining here.
<snip of my story>
> I have only been just over the border into Miss. (while I was in Memphis
> one time), but I know the state psych. hospitals in Tennessee (where I
> lived for 13 months) are not exactly the Ritz, and there are a lot of
> nutty people around, not just up here in the Evergreen State...
There are other wards down here that are pretty good; just stay away from
Whitfield Hospital...
> > Did nothing with my life for a while, then got my GED. I got into college
> > a few years ago, and then got married. My future membership in both of
> > these institutions is currently in question.
>
> Well, I hope sort out your membership questions in a positive and
> healthy fashion on both counts.
Thanks.
> > And so here I am.
> >
> > So I feel this extensive, stable, scholastically-intense background
> > qualifies me as an expert on everything. :)
>
> Works fer me! By the way, do you actually have a parakeet, or is that
> just a nom de plume?
A parakeet is a *bird*, man. :) My mother and I used to have some little
budgies. they were my mother's favorite birds. They are paranoid, xeno-
phobic, erratic and nearly brainless--they fit me perfectly. :)
> And is Stevil after 'Bitter Stevil' in KoDT or is there another source?
Actually, I made it up. Or thought I did.
> (Tjaden Ludendorff was my first D&D character, a Paladin of Thor (of all
> deities), with the names drawn from All Quiet on the Western Front,
> which I was reading in 8th or 9th grade English class (that year when I
> was sort of still in 5th grade and steadily getting ostracized by most
> of my classmates)).
Cool. My first character was in basic D&D, and was a chaotic cleric
priestess of Set named D'Monique. One of my first actions was to
sacrifice a kobold on an altar. Yes, this lives up to some of the worst
stereotypes of D&D, but I was so proud of myself. I still am. :)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------
| Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman |
Jason Eric Nelson
On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Jason Eric Nelson wrote:
>
> <Sir Snip-a-Lot was here>
And then he came by again for another round...
> > > Also, I have one pointed ear and like prancing through flowers when no one
> > > is looking, so I'm sure there's some elf in there too. :}
> >
> > Funny, one of my ears is a little pointed and the other isn't, which I
> > guess means I'm either a fleshy-headed mutant (a la Bob & Doug McKenzie)
> > or else a half-elf. I should stick with the latter, I think...
>
> Which ear is it, the right? If so, I think we have a matched set...
Yup, right ear. Must be soulmates or sumpthin.
> > Yeah. My wife is a psychiatrist and an ordained minister and works two
> > jobs, one in the local county hospital ER working with (mostly) indigent
> > crazy people (and she used to work at the state's psychiatric prison)
> > and her other job is a part-time private practice in an office that
> > mostly serves an affluent clientele. There's unhappy people all over
> > the place, and money doesn't make much difference.
>
> True, true. BTW, I didn't know women could be ordained ministers. I'm
> glad to hear they can be.
The Baptist church is (at least in theory) a congregationalist
denomination--that is to say, each congregation theoretically manages its
own affairs, can ordain who it wishes, etc. It is possible that, should a
church go too far outside the bounds of acceptedness within what the
overarching denominational philosophy is, they might be asked to resign
their membership in the denomination. Mount Zion is part of National
Baptist Church U.S.A. (which is, I think, the largest 'black' branch of
the Baptist Church) and also the American Baptist Church, both of whom
ordain women ministers. Now, when comes to having them actually *DO*
ministerial work, there is sometimes trouble from the old-fashioned types.
F'rinstance, one of women ministers at church a few months ago
participated in the baptism (which in the Baptist church is done by
immersion, rather than anointing), the first time at our church (which has
been around since 1890), and there was a pretty significant hullabaloo
raised by a bunch of people. Of course, many others just said " 'bout
time!"
[snip 'Indian Giving']
> > > Nice story, and though I risk offending you, was it really necessary to
> > > point out your IQ? How is it relevant to the discussion at all?
> >
> > I suppose it's because in the rural community where I live that test
> > (and the stuff that followed after) were strangely coincident with my
> > transformation from 'one of the smart kids in class (whose mom is a
> > really mean bus driver)' to 'an egghead weirdo'. It was the point at
> > which I stepped outside the bounds of accepted usual kid-dom (at least
> > in my community) and entered into at least borderline pariah status. The
> > kids my age thought I was a nutcase. The older kids I was in class with
> > thought pretty much the same. All of this is the 'typical' reaction--of
> > course there were exceptions--in my community it was generally
> > considered 'uncool' to be 'smart'. I went from being marginally
> > stigmatized because we were 'outsiders' in the community (i.e., not born
> > there) and having a mom who was a school bus driver to being heavily
> > stigmatized for being 'different'--and not (perceived) as 'different in
> > a good way'.
>
> Hmmm. I'm sensitive to IQ-quoting because it's done with such regularity
> on Usenet, and especially on r.g.f.d.. People whip out their IQs and SAT
> scores (which get progressively larger and larger with each poster) and
> their measuring sticks. I was making sure your quoting wasn't done in
> that vein.
Well, since you asked, my SAT score was 1400, my Miller Analogies score
91, GRE scores 710, 730, and 760 (IIRC), etc., etc., etc.
}:>
> > In a curious turn of fate, it was right around this same time that I
> > discovered D&D...
>
> I was a late gamer, myself--about 19 or 20.
I was 10. I count March 1, 1981, as the first day I actually played D&D
'cuz that was when I rolled up my first character.
[snip bad brother story]
> Don't feel guilty for disliking a jerk, even if he happens to be related
> to you. I care nothing for family, personally--or rather, my love isn't
> based on genetic similarity. I don't care about the members of my family
> that I have little to do with, and don't feel that I should just because
> they're related--for example, I feel little loyalty toward my father.
> Conversely, I love some people who I have no relation to as if they were
> siblings. I love those that love me, and if I found out tomorrow I was
> adopted I can't see how it would change how I feel about anyone. Of
> course, I am hard-hearted and bitter, so I guess that helps.
Yeah, but still not much fun.
> > like it. Among other things, it leaves time to goof around on the 'net
> > instead of doing housework!!!
>
> I should be a house-husband, then. I've discovered recently that I prefer
> solitude to the company of others most of the time.
I kind of like doing my own thing. You know, people say, "I'm a people
person, and I really love to work with people." I like to have a nice,
quiet cubicle and to be able to get stuff done without people harrassing
me. That said, I also like to work with people from time to time and get
on well with others ('plays well with others?').
All of that said, I will probably be significantly decreasing my 'net
activity for the coming long while as other RL concerns (family, school,
life in general) pull me away, but I'll look in and post when I can...
> > Works fer me! By the way, do you actually have a parakeet, or is that
> > just a nom de plume?
>
> A parakeet is a *bird*, man. :)
As Daffy Duck (another bird, BTW) said: "Ha ha. So funny. Ho ho. It is
to laugh."
> > And is Stevil after 'Bitter Stevil' in KoDT or is there another source?
>
> Actually, I made it up. Or thought I did.
You should pick up Knights of the Dinner Table (a gaming-based comic
book). It is an absolute scream. They have a website, by the way, and I
could probably dig up the URL if you emailed me. It has been posted to
this NG in the last month or so as well, and somebody else who has it
handy might well post it for you.
krysta...@my-dejanews.com
ME?? I never told him to go away...
My NAY vote on the "Troll" thread was NAY to the resolution, not that I wanted
you to stop....
If someone took that the wrong way, that's their problem...
I'd never try to stop someone from creative writing....
I might as well shoot myself in the foot if I do...
Once again, sorry if you took my NAY vote the wrong way... I'm fully in favor
of you continuing your posts...all of em...
krystal_blade
Xenophile
Maloney) wrote:
>In article <36e46df7...@news.freeserve.net>,
>bog...@boglinscage.freeserve.co.uk (boglin) wrote:
>
>> >>What in high holy heck is a "breast fighter"?
>> >>
>> >>I'm envisioning a sort of blade-like bard character, who uses "flash and
>> >>flaire" in combat in order to... erm... "distract" her opponents...
>
>Her name was "La Maupin" and she lived in 17th-century France. I'm not
>kidding. The woman lived a life as flashy and swashbuckling as any novel
>or movie. She would make her living (before being hired by the Paris
>Opera), singing and giving exhibitions of fencing. On one (possibly two)
>occasions, a heckler adamantly maintained that she was actually a youth
>with long hair. To prove him wrong, she stripped to the waist--onstage!
>
>This was one of her less outrageous accomplishments. She also was a
>blatant bisexual (even seduced a nun--was under death sentence for a
>couple of years until pardoned for that one) and "man-izer", going through
>lovers like most swashbuckling male heroes went through women. Likewise,
>she was a formidable duellist, killing or crippling many men in her
>lifetime.
Where can I find more information on this woman?
xenophile (ZEEN-oh-file): n.
1) one who has a fondness, desire or love for that which is different, foreign, or exotic.
2) an exellent comic magazine written and penciled by Phil Foglio (spelled "xXxenophile").
This magazine is no longer being produced. :^(