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Is Whirlwind wacky? Or do I miss something?
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LL
Mar 24, 2015, 2:34:00 PM3/24/15
to
Talking about Pathfinder here:
"The whirlwind form does not provoke attacks of opportunity, even if the
creature enters the space another creature occupies. Another creature
might be caught in the whirlwind if it touches or enters the whirlwind,
or if the whirlwind moves into or through the creature’s space. A
creature in whirlwind form cannot make its normal attacks and does not
threaten the area around it."
but what's with the following:
"Moving Through a Square
You can move through an unoccupied square without difficulty in most
circumstances. Difficult terrain and a number of spell effects might
hamper your movement through open spaces.
Friend
You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless
you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly
character, that character doesn't provide you with cover.
Opponent
You can't move through a square occupied by an opponent unless the
opponent is helpless. You can move through a square occupied by a
helpless opponent without penalty. Some creatures, particularly very
large ones, may present an obstacle even when helpless. In such cases,
each square you move through counts as 2 squares.
Ending Your Movement
You can't end your movement in the same square as another creature
unless it is helpless."
This together would suggest that only helpless creatures might get
caught...but then the next paragraph of Whirlwind says:
"Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the whirlwind
<...>
may be lifted into the air. An affected creature must succeed on a
Reflex save (DC 10 + half monster’s HD + the monster’s Strength
modifier) when it comes into contact with the whirlwind or take damage
as if it were hit by the whirlwind creature's slam attack. It must also
succeed on a second Reflex save or be picked up bodily and held
suspended in the powerful winds, automatically taking the indicated
damage each round. A creature that can fly is allowed a Reflex save each
round to escape the whirlwind. The creature still takes damage but can
leave if the save is successful."
First: Ref save would indicate non-helpless victims, hmmm...
Second: weight is irrelevant???
Third: contact is not well defined (same square, touch attack,
melee attack)
Forth: read on, it gets even better
"Creatures trapped in the whirlwind cannot move except to go where the
whirlwind carries them or to escape the whirlwind. Trapped creatures can
otherwise act normally, but must succeed on a concentration check (DC 15
+ spell level) to cast a spell. Creatures caught in the whirlwind take a
–4 penalty to Dexterity and a –2 penalty on attack rolls. The whirlwind
can have only as many creatures trapped inside at one time as will fit
inside the whirlwind’s volume. The whirlwind can eject any carried
creatures whenever it wishes as a free action, depositing them in its
space."
So the creatures' volumes are a restricting factor? Although volumes
are not in the monsters' descriptions or anywhere else in the rules...
Plus, no one says I can't grapple the friggin Whirlwind and then pin it?
It just came up in my game and I was disappointed and surprised that PF
didn't fix this shit.
LL
"The whirlwind form does not provoke attacks of opportunity, even if the
creature enters the space another creature occupies. Another creature
might be caught in the whirlwind if it touches or enters the whirlwind,
or if the whirlwind moves into or through the creature’s space. A
creature in whirlwind form cannot make its normal attacks and does not
threaten the area around it."
but what's with the following:
"Moving Through a Square
You can move through an unoccupied square without difficulty in most
circumstances. Difficult terrain and a number of spell effects might
hamper your movement through open spaces.
Friend
You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless
you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly
character, that character doesn't provide you with cover.
Opponent
You can't move through a square occupied by an opponent unless the
opponent is helpless. You can move through a square occupied by a
helpless opponent without penalty. Some creatures, particularly very
large ones, may present an obstacle even when helpless. In such cases,
each square you move through counts as 2 squares.
Ending Your Movement
You can't end your movement in the same square as another creature
unless it is helpless."
This together would suggest that only helpless creatures might get
caught...but then the next paragraph of Whirlwind says:
"Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the whirlwind
<...>
may be lifted into the air. An affected creature must succeed on a
Reflex save (DC 10 + half monster’s HD + the monster’s Strength
modifier) when it comes into contact with the whirlwind or take damage
as if it were hit by the whirlwind creature's slam attack. It must also
succeed on a second Reflex save or be picked up bodily and held
suspended in the powerful winds, automatically taking the indicated
damage each round. A creature that can fly is allowed a Reflex save each
round to escape the whirlwind. The creature still takes damage but can
leave if the save is successful."
First: Ref save would indicate non-helpless victims, hmmm...
Second: weight is irrelevant???
Third: contact is not well defined (same square, touch attack,
melee attack)
Forth: read on, it gets even better
"Creatures trapped in the whirlwind cannot move except to go where the
whirlwind carries them or to escape the whirlwind. Trapped creatures can
otherwise act normally, but must succeed on a concentration check (DC 15
+ spell level) to cast a spell. Creatures caught in the whirlwind take a
–4 penalty to Dexterity and a –2 penalty on attack rolls. The whirlwind
can have only as many creatures trapped inside at one time as will fit
inside the whirlwind’s volume. The whirlwind can eject any carried
creatures whenever it wishes as a free action, depositing them in its
space."
So the creatures' volumes are a restricting factor? Although volumes
are not in the monsters' descriptions or anywhere else in the rules...
Plus, no one says I can't grapple the friggin Whirlwind and then pin it?
It just came up in my game and I was disappointed and surprised that PF
didn't fix this shit.
LL
tussock
Mar 25, 2015, 1:48:54 AM3/25/15
to
LL wrote:
> Talking about Pathfinder here:
>
> "The whirlwind form does not provoke attacks of opportunity, even if the
> creature enters the space another creature occupies. Another creature
> might be caught in the whirlwind if it touches or enters the whirlwind,
> or if the whirlwind moves into or through the creature’s space. A
> creature in whirlwind form cannot make its normal attacks and does not
> threaten the area around it."
>
> but what's with the following:
>
> "Moving Through a Square
<snips>
> Talking about Pathfinder here:
>
> "The whirlwind form does not provoke attacks of opportunity, even if the
> creature enters the space another creature occupies. Another creature
> might be caught in the whirlwind if it touches or enters the whirlwind,
> or if the whirlwind moves into or through the creature’s space. A
> creature in whirlwind form cannot make its normal attacks and does not
> threaten the area around it."
>
> but what's with the following:
>
> "Moving Through a Square
Pfft. What the 3e rules are trying to do is say that moving into a
similar-size creature's space draws an AoO, and you have to either
tumble, overrun, or bullrush them to get through it (or grapple to stay
there in 3.0/3.5), and if you fail any of that then you bounce back and
stop (and maybe fall down).
The Whirlwind modifies that by removing the AoO and adding the
ability to carry creatures away who fail a save. There's no particular
note about bouncing either, unlike for bullrush, overrun, and tumble, so
that not being a general rule means it doesn't happen here.
So you can't move through an occupied square of a similar-size
creature *with normal movement*, but you can with all sorts of options
and rolls, including being a Whirlwind.
There's some sort of secret rule for making babushka dolls, 2:1 per
size category difference IIRC. One @1 size smaller, Two @2 sizes, Four @3
sizes, etc. Or that's just what I've been doing for years and no one
cares.
> Plus, no one says I can't grapple the friggin Whirlwind and then pin it?
sorts. Trip snakes, push ghosts, why not, it's only a game. /4e.
> It just came up in my game and I was disappointed and surprised that PF
> didn't fix this shit.
year by trying to consolidate the 3.5 ruleset with the house rules he
implemented while writing it. He had a good bit of help in the final
copying/rewriting check to avoid copyright infringement, but that was
never going to fix anything, just change a bunch of stuff.
--
tussock
LL
Mar 25, 2015, 6:31:43 AM3/25/15
to
On 25.03.2015 06:48, tussock wrote:
> LL wrote:
>
>> Talking about Pathfinder here:
>>
>> "The whirlwind form does not provoke attacks of opportunity, even if the
>> creature enters the space another creature occupies. Another creature
>> might be caught in the whirlwind if it touches or enters the whirlwind,
>> or if the whirlwind moves into or through the creature’s space. A
>> creature in whirlwind form cannot make its normal attacks and does not
>> threaten the area around it."
>>
>> but what's with the following:
>>
>> "Moving Through a Square
> <snips>
>
> Pfft. What the 3e rules are trying to do is say that moving into a
> similar-size creature's space draws an AoO, and you have to either
> tumble, overrun, or bullrush them to get through it (or grapple to stay
> there in 3.0/3.5), and if you fail any of that then you bounce back and
> stop (and maybe fall down).
Air elementals aren't incorporeal and the RAW don't state explicitly
> LL wrote:
>
>> Talking about Pathfinder here:
>>
>> "The whirlwind form does not provoke attacks of opportunity, even if the
>> creature enters the space another creature occupies. Another creature
>> might be caught in the whirlwind if it touches or enters the whirlwind,
>> or if the whirlwind moves into or through the creature’s space. A
>> creature in whirlwind form cannot make its normal attacks and does not
>> threaten the area around it."
>>
>> but what's with the following:
>>
>> "Moving Through a Square
> <snips>
>
> Pfft. What the 3e rules are trying to do is say that moving into a
> similar-size creature's space draws an AoO, and you have to either
> tumble, overrun, or bullrush them to get through it (or grapple to stay
> there in 3.0/3.5), and if you fail any of that then you bounce back and
> stop (and maybe fall down).
that these rules for moving into other creatures space do not apply.
Or I failed my skill check as a non-native reader.
It seems to be the intent, I know that already.
> The Whirlwind modifies that by removing the AoO and adding the
> ability to carry creatures away who fail a save. There's no particular
> note about bouncing either, unlike for bullrush, overrun, and tumble, so
> that not being a general rule means it doesn't happen here.
>
> So you can't move through an occupied square of a similar-size
> creature *with normal movement*, but you can with all sorts of options
> and rolls, including being a Whirlwind.
break up a whirlwind/dust devil or vortex).
> There's some sort of secret rule for making babushka dolls, 2:1 per
> size category difference IIRC. One @1 size smaller, Two @2 sizes, Four @3
> sizes, etc. Or that's just what I've been doing for years and no one
> cares.
The whirlwind's "lifting capacity" depends on creatures' volumes,
which are undefined/not a part of the rules.
A size-formula or weight/carrying capacity would at least be in the
rules elsewhere.
>> Plus, no one says I can't grapple the friggin Whirlwind and then pin it?
>
> I imagine you can also grapple fire and water and swarms and all
> sorts. Trip snakes, push ghosts, why not, it's only a game. /4e.
Fire and water elementals can be grappled, RAW.
Although the fire elemental's burn might be a problem.
Swarm:
"Also, they cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, and they cannot
grapple an opponent."
Snake:
"Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying
creatures—cannot be tripped."
Ghost:
" Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can
they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical
action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor
are they subject to such actions."
Let's talk about whirlwind, shall we?
This whirlwind crap reminds me of the olden ways, wishy-washy rules
without clearly defined terms and horribly unbalanced.
Small air elemental's whirlwind is DC 12, 10-20 ft.
20 ft. high is within 16' to 32 ft. which is the Huge (tall) category.
So this CR 1 creature can lift one or more large creatures (volume?
you have to do the math yourself).
Fighting back is possible at -3 attack and -1 damage or with spells
concentration DC 15 + spell level, compared to automatic slam
damage each round a bit underwhelming.
With Fly +17 the sucker is probably 100 ft. high with your sorry
ass in it's whirlwindy claws after one additional round
=> say hello to 10d6 damage.
And it can come back for more, if you're still in the mood.
Which you aren't as a 1st level character...
As a DM you can always choose to not exploit such abilities,
but a player with wild shape or the spell elemental body can
become a pain in the ass with this shit.
LL
tussock
Mar 25, 2015, 9:05:11 PM3/25/15
to
LL wrote:
> tussock wrote:
>> LL wrote:
>>
>>> Talking about Pathfinder here:
>>>
>>> "The whirlwind form does not provoke attacks of opportunity, ***even
> tussock wrote:
>> LL wrote:
>>
>>> Talking about Pathfinder here:
>>>
>>> if the creature enters the space another creature occupies***. Another
>>> creature might be caught in the whirlwind if it touches ***or enters
>>> the whirlwind***, or if the whirlwind ***moves into or through the
>>> creature’s space***. A creature in whirlwind form cannot make its
>>> normal attacks and does not threaten the area around it."
>>>
>>> but what's with the following:
>>>
>>> "Moving Through a Square
>> <snips>
>>
>> Pfft. What the 3e rules are trying to do is say that moving into a
>> similar-size creature's space draws an AoO, and you have to either
>> tumble, overrun, or bullrush them to get through it (or grapple to stay
>> there in 3.0/3.5), and if you fail any of that then you bounce back and
>> stop (and maybe fall down).
>
> Air elementals aren't incorporeal and the RAW don't state explicitly
> that these rules for moving into other creatures space do not apply.
> Or I failed my skill check as a non-native reader.
> It seems to be the intent, I know that already.
The rules for whirlwind describe moving through an occupied space to
>>>
>>> but what's with the following:
>>>
>>> "Moving Through a Square
>> <snips>
>>
>> Pfft. What the 3e rules are trying to do is say that moving into a
>> similar-size creature's space draws an AoO, and you have to either
>> tumble, overrun, or bullrush them to get through it (or grapple to stay
>> there in 3.0/3.5), and if you fail any of that then you bounce back and
>> stop (and maybe fall down).
>
> Air elementals aren't incorporeal and the RAW don't state explicitly
> that these rules for moving into other creatures space do not apply.
> Or I failed my skill check as a non-native reader.
> It seems to be the intent, I know that already.
attack. It's in your original quote, three times. That is the rule you
are looking for.
If /I/ had written these things for pathfinder, they'd have swallow
whole and you'd be able to get yourself ejected and they'd make CMB/CMD
checks from an adjacent space that come with a bonus for being in
whirlwind form, gliding rather than flying. Using the rules. But they
didn't do that, they just pass through your space, pick you up, fly up
high, and drop you.
<snip>
>> So you can't move through an occupied square of a similar-size
>> creature *with normal movement*, but you can with all sorts of options
>> and rolls, including being a Whirlwind.
>
> Which is not well-defined (and not realistic, large obstacles can break
> up a whirlwind/dust devil or vortex).
More importantly, it's too good.
>> creature *with normal movement*, but you can with all sorts of options
>> and rolls, including being a Whirlwind.
>
> Which is not well-defined (and not realistic, large obstacles can break
> up a whirlwind/dust devil or vortex).
>> There's some sort of secret rule for making babushka dolls, 2:1
>> per size category difference IIRC. One @1 size smaller, Two @2 sizes,
>> Four @3 sizes, etc. Or that's just what I've been doing for years and
>> no one cares.
>
> Size does not matter for the number of creatures caught.
> The whirlwind's "lifting capacity" depends on creatures' volumes,
> which are undefined/not a part of the rules.
all the rules around stacking critters, so when they got to Whirlwind
they had none left to reference and ....
NB: Whirlwind *does not* change your size category, it just changes
your height. A small elemental can only pick up familiars. Large and Huge
ones are still devastating though.
> A size-formula or weight/carrying capacity would at least be in the
> rules elsewhere.
to ... should be light encumbrance, maybe? That would limit the dropping
to Huge elementals, 7th level spells.
>>> Plus, no one says I can't grapple the friggin Whirlwind and then pin
>>> it?
>>
>> I imagine you can also grapple fire and water and swarms and all
>> sorts. Trip snakes, push ghosts, why not, it's only a game. /4e.
>
> I have no need for these red herrings, grumpy one. ;-)
> Fire and water elementals can be grappled, RAW.
> Although the fire elemental's burn might be a problem.
> Swarm:
> "Also, they cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, and they cannot
> grapple an opponent."
tripping them, and reposition them, which moves creatures about without
bullrushing them. Rules demonstrating how no one understands inheritance.
> Snake:
> "Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying
> creatures—cannot be tripped."
stand up, so they don't have to crawl. It's the rules. 8]
> Ghost:
> " Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can
> they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical
> action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor
> are they subject to such actions."
incorporeal that a bunch of other creatures should have by virtue of not
being solid. There's sort of rules hidden in the gaseous form spell, but
nothing uses them.
> Let's talk about whirlwind, shall we?
expected when you start looking too closely, because the designers don't
actually care. Monte Cook's thing in 2013 was "I don't want to write
games for assholes any more", by which he meant people who notice how his
rules don't fucking work. 8]
> This whirlwind crap reminds me of the olden ways, wishy-washy rules
> without clearly defined terms and horribly unbalanced.
>
> Small air elemental's whirlwind is DC 12, 10-20 ft.
> 20 ft. high is within 16' to 32 ft. which is the Huge (tall) category.
> So this CR 1 creature can lift one or more large creatures (volume?
> you have to do the math yourself).
without your free size change, but so is everything in the game that can
fly and carry away PCs. Dragons and Wyverns and so on have been dropping
PCs to their death for fourteen years now.
I can only assume the designer intent was to have elementals drop
folk at ground level, by virtue of encumbrance rules or something that
most people don't use (because they're terrible).
<snip>
> As a DM you can always choose to not exploit such abilities,
> but a player with wild shape or the spell elemental body can become a
> pain in the ass with this shit.
People have been summoning them for a long time to win encounters.
> but a player with wild shape or the spell elemental body can become a
> pain in the ass with this shit.
Mostly players end up agreeing not to do that, because it's bad for the
game, and the DM might do it back and then everyone would die.
Like scry-buff-teleport, or most 9th level spells. Certain things are
just far too powerful, and the designers aren't fussed about that at all.
--
tussock
LL
Mar 26, 2015, 7:03:19 AM3/26/15
to
On 26.03.2015 02:04, tussock wrote:
> LL wrote:
>> tussock wrote:
>>> LL wrote:
>>>
>>>> Talking about Pathfinder here:
>
> LL wrote:
>> tussock wrote:
>>> LL wrote:
>>>
>>>> Talking about Pathfinder here:
>
> If /I/ had written these things for pathfinder, they'd have swallow
> whole and you'd be able to get yourself ejected and they'd make CMB/CMD
> checks from an adjacent space that come with a bonus for being in
> whirlwind form, gliding rather than flying. Using the rules.
Yesterday, I just rewrote the whole Whirlwind ability using CMB/CMD
> whole and you'd be able to get yourself ejected and they'd make CMB/CMD
> checks from an adjacent space that come with a bonus for being in
> whirlwind form, gliding rather than flying. Using the rules.
together with carrying capacity instead of volume. If the WW fails
to pick up/engulf the victim, it can't enter that creature's space
in the same round. So, one try per round per target.
Plus, no flying above light encumbrance. Presto.
> More importantly, it's too good.
how crappy these rules are.
> NB: Whirlwind *does not* change your size category, it just changes
> your height. A small elemental can only pick up familiars. Large and Huge
> ones are still devastating though.
of WW. Because there is the following sentence:
"Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the whirlwind..."
and a creature 40 ft. high is usually considered to be Gargantuan (tall).
See the table at:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/space-reach-threatened-area-templates
>> A size-formula or weight/carrying capacity would at least be in the
>> rules elsewhere.
>
> There's encumbrance rules I suppose, flying critters are limited
> to ... should be light encumbrance, maybe? That would limit the dropping
> to Huge elementals, 7th level spells.
>>>> Plus, no one says I can't grapple the friggin Whirlwind and then pin
>>>> it?
>>>
>>> I imagine you can also grapple fire and water and swarms and all
>>> sorts. Trip snakes, push ghosts, why not, it's only a game. /4e.
>>
>> I have no need for these red herrings, grumpy one. ;-)
>> Fire and water elementals can be grappled, RAW.
>> Although the fire elemental's burn might be a problem.
>> Swarm:
>> "Also, they cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, and they cannot
>> grapple an opponent."
>
> But you can overrun them, which knocks creatures prone without
> tripping them, and reposition them, which moves creatures about without
> bullrushing them. Rules demonstrating how no one understands inheritance.
it has." Not very likely unless it's legless worms :)
I can imagine a situation where you shuffle through a rat swarm
leaving them in disorder, needing to regroup (=standing up from prone).
>> Snake:
>> "Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying
>> creatures—cannot be tripped."
>
> Overrun leaves them prone. Prone snakes have to take an action to
> stand up, so they don't have to crawl. It's the rules. 8]
guess...
>> Ghost:
>> " Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can
>> they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical
>> action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor
>> are they subject to such actions."
>
> They really needed a "fluid" tag or something, for the bits of
> incorporeal that a bunch of other creatures should have by virtue of not
> being solid. There's sort of rules hidden in the gaseous form spell, but
> nothing uses them.
add a gaseous subtype to such creatures.
<snip>
> People have been summoning them for a long time to win encounters.
> Mostly players end up agreeing not to do that, because it's bad for the
> game, and the DM might do it back and then everyone would die.
I prefer a workable solution to such problems, not meta-game banning.
> Mostly players end up agreeing not to do that, because it's bad for the
> game, and the DM might do it back and then everyone would die.
> Like scry-buff-teleport, or most 9th level spells. Certain things are
> just far too powerful, and the designers aren't fussed about that at all.
LL
Joanna Rowland Stuart
Mar 26, 2015, 8:58:15 AM3/26/15
to
In article <mevlug$otq$1...@dont-email.me>, sc...@clear.net.nz (tussock)
wrote:
> Cook's thing in 2013 was "I don't want to write
> games for assholes any more", by which he meant
Rules lawyers.
Rule 1. The sole interpreter of the RAW is the GM.
Rule 2. RAW are subject to Rule 1. Queries are encouraged, but see Rule
1.
Rule 3. If you don't like it, leave. The game you're in is run by the GM.
As a GM I *hate* rules lawyers and a persistent one finds themselves
warned off, then finally ejected from my games. Permanently. I've only
had to do that once in 35 years of playing D&D.
As a GM I'm also very tolerant where there's ambiguity around a rule or
circumstance and the players nearly always get the benefit of the doubt.
Mooks and even BBEG can be replaced, good players are hard to find/keep
if the DM behaves like an asshole.
Cheers
JOanna
wrote:
> Cook's thing in 2013 was "I don't want to write
> games for assholes any more", by which he meant
Rule 1. The sole interpreter of the RAW is the GM.
Rule 2. RAW are subject to Rule 1. Queries are encouraged, but see Rule
1.
Rule 3. If you don't like it, leave. The game you're in is run by the GM.
As a GM I *hate* rules lawyers and a persistent one finds themselves
warned off, then finally ejected from my games. Permanently. I've only
had to do that once in 35 years of playing D&D.
As a GM I'm also very tolerant where there's ambiguity around a rule or
circumstance and the players nearly always get the benefit of the doubt.
Mooks and even BBEG can be replaced, good players are hard to find/keep
if the DM behaves like an asshole.
Cheers
JOanna
Spalls Hurgenson
Mar 26, 2015, 9:37:41 AM3/26/15
to
On Thu, 26 Mar 2015 12:58 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),
jrowlan...@cix.co.uk (Joanna Rowland Stuart) wrote:
>In article <mevlug$otq$1...@dont-email.me>, sc...@clear.net.nz (tussock)
>wrote:
>
>> Cook's thing in 2013 was "I don't want to write
>> games for assholes any more", by which he meant
>Rules lawyers.
>
>Rule 1. The sole interpreter of the RAW is the GM.
I'm a big believer in Rule #1, but I've always felt that there was a
jrowlan...@cix.co.uk (Joanna Rowland Stuart) wrote:
>In article <mevlug$otq$1...@dont-email.me>, sc...@clear.net.nz (tussock)
>wrote:
>
>> Cook's thing in 2013 was "I don't want to write
>> games for assholes any more", by which he meant
>Rules lawyers.
>
>Rule 1. The sole interpreter of the RAW is the GM.
necessary addendum:
Rule 0: This is a game and games are supposed to be fun. If the GM is
acting in a way that the rest of the group isn't having fun, he's
wrong ;-)
I've never been one to stick to the rules-as-written, but I've always
stiven to be fair and entertaining. I have been known to ignore rules
that seem inappropriate, are overly complex or unfair. Then again, I
- and my players - are in it more for the story and experience than
the mechanical gaming, which seems the whole point of an RPG to me. I
mean, if I wanted something where it was all about the rules and
challenge and the opponents I'd be playing a board game instead.
LL
Mar 26, 2015, 12:02:25 PM3/26/15
to
On 26.03.2015 13:58, Joanna Rowland Stuart wrote:
> In article <mevlug$otq$1...@dont-email.me>, sc...@clear.net.nz (tussock)
> wrote:
>
>> Cook's thing in 2013 was "I don't want to write
>> games for assholes any more", by which he meant
> Rules lawyers.
>
> Rule 1. The sole interpreter of the RAW is the GM.
> Rule 2. RAW are subject to Rule 1. Queries are encouraged, but see Rule
> 1.
> Rule 3. If you don't like it, leave. The game you're in is run by the GM.
>
> As a GM I *hate* rules lawyers and a persistent one finds themselves
> warned off, then finally ejected from my games. Permanently. I've only
> had to do that once in 35 years of playing D&D.
Well, if a player makes certain choices, because he has something cool
> In article <mevlug$otq$1...@dont-email.me>, sc...@clear.net.nz (tussock)
> wrote:
>
>> Cook's thing in 2013 was "I don't want to write
>> games for assholes any more", by which he meant
> Rules lawyers.
>
> Rule 1. The sole interpreter of the RAW is the GM.
> Rule 2. RAW are subject to Rule 1. Queries are encouraged, but see Rule
> 1.
> Rule 3. If you don't like it, leave. The game you're in is run by the GM.
>
> As a GM I *hate* rules lawyers and a persistent one finds themselves
> warned off, then finally ejected from my games. Permanently. I've only
> had to do that once in 35 years of playing D&D.
in mind - like lifting opponents with his whirlwind ability - and
when he finally could do it, the GM makes a rule-0-nerf-dick-move,
I wouldn't consider it rules lawyering on the player's part.
The whirlwind rules are crappy, but is it the player's fault
to think "Hey, that's rather cool and powerful"?
As GM I don't want to invalidate the player's choices,
I'll try to achieve balance in my game by clarifying and modifying
the existing rules.
> As a GM I'm also very tolerant where there's ambiguity around a rule or
> circumstance and the players nearly always get the benefit of the doubt.
> Mooks and even BBEG can be replaced, good players are hard to find/keep
> if the DM behaves like an asshole.
I'm not an asshole and my players are worth a little effort. :-)
LL
Joanna Rowland Stuart
Mar 28, 2015, 10:01:17 AM3/28/15
to
In article <mf1agr$533$1...@dont-email.me>, Loren...@invalid.invalid (LL)
wrote:
> Well, if a player makes certain choices, because he has something
> cool
> in mind - like lifting opponents with his whirlwind ability - and
> when he finally could do it, the GM makes a rule-0-nerf-dick-move,
> I wouldn't consider it rules lawyering on the player's part.
>
> The whirlwind rules are crappy, but is it the player's fault
> to think "Hey, that's rather cool and powerful"?
>
> As GM I don't want to invalidate the player's choices,
> I'll try to achieve balance in my game by clarifying and modifying
> the existing rules.
Oh agreed. But then a good GM says, "let's work that one out, it's cool,
but it's way overpowered RAW"
If the player insists, then the next set of monsters they will meet will
be able to match or even overcome the whirlwind ability, especially if
the BBEG is aware of that ability residing in the party.
Cheers
JOanna
wrote:
> Well, if a player makes certain choices, because he has something
> cool
> in mind - like lifting opponents with his whirlwind ability - and
> when he finally could do it, the GM makes a rule-0-nerf-dick-move,
> I wouldn't consider it rules lawyering on the player's part.
>
> The whirlwind rules are crappy, but is it the player's fault
> to think "Hey, that's rather cool and powerful"?
>
> As GM I don't want to invalidate the player's choices,
> I'll try to achieve balance in my game by clarifying and modifying
> the existing rules.
but it's way overpowered RAW"
If the player insists, then the next set of monsters they will meet will
be able to match or even overcome the whirlwind ability, especially if
the BBEG is aware of that ability residing in the party.
Cheers
JOanna
Joanna Rowland Stuart
Mar 28, 2015, 10:01:17 AM3/28/15
to
In article <pb28had2v47t01stj...@4ax.com>,
group, he continues in that fashion, he's an asshole of an arbiter.
Cheers
JOanna
spallsh...@gmail.com (Spalls Hurgenson) wrote:
> If the GM is
> acting in a way that the rest of the group isn't having fun, he's
> wrong ;-)
Oh yes. But he's still the sole arbiter. If, after complaints from the
> If the GM is
> acting in a way that the rest of the group isn't having fun, he's
> wrong ;-)
group, he continues in that fashion, he's an asshole of an arbiter.
Cheers
JOanna
LL
Mar 31, 2015, 9:12:58 AM3/31/15
to
Rather long, my new houseruled whirlwind...what do you think?
Whirlwind (Su)
Some creatures can transform themselves into whirlwinds and remain in
that form for up to 1 round for every 2 HD they have. If the creature
has a fly speed, it can continue to fly at that same speed while in
whirlwind form; otherwise it gains a fly speed equal to its base land
speed (average maneuverability) while in whirlwind form. It can either
make a double move or a single move, if it tries to enter the space of
at least one other creature, see below.
The whirlwind is always 5 feet wide at its base, but its height and
width at the top vary from creature to creature (minimum 10 feet high).
A whirlwind’s width at its peak is always equal to half of its height.
The creature controls the exact height, but it must be at least 10 feet
high. The size category of the whirlwind is always equal to the
creature's size category.
A creature in whirlwind form cannot make its normal attacks and can't
cast spells. It doesn't threaten the area around it. The whirlwind form
does not provoke attacks of opportunity and can't be grappled. The
whirlwind can enter the space of other creatures, if they are one or
more size categories smaller than the whirlwind. To do so, the whirlwind
must succeed at an attack roll, adding its CMB instead of its normal
attack bonus, if the target is resisting. As this attack is part of its
movement, it is considered a free action. An unsuccessful attempt costs
the whirlwind 5 ft. of its movement. If it has movement left, it can
still move elsewhere, but it can't attempt to enter the same space more
than once per round. Upon successfully entering a creatures space, the
whirlwind can make another free combat maneuver check. If successfull,
it lifts the creature into the air, suspended in the powerfull winds. At
any one time the whirlwind may not carry more weigth than its maximum
load based on its size category and Strength. It can eject any trapped
must make one free combat maneuver check for each creature currently
caught. All creatures staying trappped in the whirlwind take damage
(generally equal to the monster's slam attack for a creature of its size).
Creatures in the whirlwind can make combat maneuver checks to free
themselves on their turn. Successfull flying creatures can leave the
whirlwind normally. Freed non-flyers fall out of the whirlwind and may
take falling damage – they usually fall from the top of the whirlwind.
of debris. This cloud is centered on the creature and has a diameter
equal to half the whirlwind’s height. The cloud obscures all vision,
including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. Creatures 5 feet away have
concealment, while those farther away have total concealment. Those
caught in the cloud of debris must succeed on a concentration check (DC
Whirlwind (Su)
Some creatures can transform themselves into whirlwinds and remain in
that form for up to 1 round for every 2 HD they have. If the creature
has a fly speed, it can continue to fly at that same speed while in
whirlwind form; otherwise it gains a fly speed equal to its base land
speed (average maneuverability) while in whirlwind form. It can either
make a double move or a single move, if it tries to enter the space of
at least one other creature, see below.
The whirlwind is always 5 feet wide at its base, but its height and
width at the top vary from creature to creature (minimum 10 feet high).
A whirlwind’s width at its peak is always equal to half of its height.
The creature controls the exact height, but it must be at least 10 feet
high. The size category of the whirlwind is always equal to the
creature's size category.
A creature in whirlwind form cannot make its normal attacks and can't
cast spells. It doesn't threaten the area around it. The whirlwind form
does not provoke attacks of opportunity and can't be grappled. The
whirlwind can enter the space of other creatures, if they are one or
more size categories smaller than the whirlwind. To do so, the whirlwind
must succeed at an attack roll, adding its CMB instead of its normal
attack bonus, if the target is resisting. As this attack is part of its
movement, it is considered a free action. An unsuccessful attempt costs
the whirlwind 5 ft. of its movement. If it has movement left, it can
still move elsewhere, but it can't attempt to enter the same space more
than once per round. Upon successfully entering a creatures space, the
whirlwind can make another free combat maneuver check. If successfull,
it lifts the creature into the air, suspended in the powerfull winds. At
any one time the whirlwind may not carry more weigth than its maximum
load based on its size category and Strength. It can eject any trapped
creatures whenever it wishes as a free action, depositing them in its space.
At the beginning of each round, before the whirlwind starts moving, it
must make one free combat maneuver check for each creature currently
caught. All creatures staying trappped in the whirlwind take damage
(generally equal to the monster's slam attack for a creature of its size).
Creatures in the whirlwind can make combat maneuver checks to free
themselves on their turn. Successfull flying creatures can leave the
whirlwind normally. Freed non-flyers fall out of the whirlwind and may
take falling damage – they usually fall from the top of the whirlwind.
Creatures trapped in the whirlwind cannot move except to go where the
whirlwind carries them or to escape the whirlwind. Trapped creatures can
otherwise act normally, but must succeed on a concentration check (DC 15
+ spell level) to cast a spell. Creatures caught in the whirlwind take a
–4 penalty to Dexterity and a –2 penalty on attack rolls.
If the whirlwind’s base touches the ground, it creates a swirling cloud
whirlwind carries them or to escape the whirlwind. Trapped creatures can
otherwise act normally, but must succeed on a concentration check (DC 15
+ spell level) to cast a spell. Creatures caught in the whirlwind take a
–4 penalty to Dexterity and a –2 penalty on attack rolls.
of debris. This cloud is centered on the creature and has a diameter
equal to half the whirlwind’s height. The cloud obscures all vision,
including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. Creatures 5 feet away have
concealment, while those farther away have total concealment. Those
caught in the cloud of debris must succeed on a concentration check (DC
aje...@gmail.com
Apr 10, 2018, 12:57:20 PM4/10/18
to
LL, the House Rule Whirlwind is pretty good! I note that the cloud of debris also blinds the air elemental, so how it's going to find opponents is another matter... i might have been tempted to fix this, and at the same time give all elementals an ability that seems long overdue thus:
Air - Cloudsight 30' (ex); vision is not obscured by gases, fogs, or clouds within range.
Earth - Tremorsense 30'
Fire - Smokesight 30' (ex); vision is not obscured by smoke or fire within range.
Water - Watersight 30' (ex); acts as blindsight but limited to the extent of water or similar liquids within range.
Air - Cloudsight 30' (ex); vision is not obscured by gases, fogs, or clouds within range.
Earth - Tremorsense 30'
Fire - Smokesight 30' (ex); vision is not obscured by smoke or fire within range.
Water - Watersight 30' (ex); acts as blindsight but limited to the extent of water or similar liquids within range.
LL
Apr 18, 2018, 1:42:11 PM4/18/18
to
Thanks!
I note that the cloud of debris also blinds the air elemental, so how
it's going to find opponents is another matter... i might have been
tempted to fix this, and at the same time give all elementals an ability
that seems long overdue thus:
> Air - Cloudsight 30' (ex); vision is not obscured by gases, fogs, or clouds within range.
I'm not sure. The whirlwind form as is, can be either offensive or
defensive. If it wants to attack unhindered, it should stay at least
5 ft. off the ground. I wouldn't want the whirlwind to be even more
dangerous to its victims by blinding them without affecting the
whirlwind. Metagame reasoning...but normally air is quite transparent
and easy to look through, so in game such an ability wouldn't
perhaps be developed by creatures on the elemental plane of air,
I guess.
> Earth - Tremorsense 30'
In PF they have tremorsense 60 ft. already. Which makes sense *har, har*
>
> Fire - Smokesight 30' (ex); vision is not obscured by smoke or fire within range.
I'd change that to "vision is not obscured within an area of smoke or
fire up to 60 ft. range. So, opponents in the same fire or smoke
area are seen, but not those outside and behind the burning area or
smoke. The fire elemental sees only "its" current fire/smoke area.
If it's at the border it can see normally out of the fire and 60 ft.
into it.
My wording sounds a bit unclear even to me. Hmm.
> Water - Watersight 30' (ex); acts as blindsight but limited to the extent of water or similar liquids within range.
I probably go with: Blindsense 60 ft. in water.
Which is halfway between shark's Blindsense 60 ft. and dolphin's
Blindsight 120 ft. and not much, as they can swim 90 ft.
Other liquids? GM's option, I guess.
LL
I note that the cloud of debris also blinds the air elemental, so how
it's going to find opponents is another matter... i might have been
tempted to fix this, and at the same time give all elementals an ability
that seems long overdue thus:
> Air - Cloudsight 30' (ex); vision is not obscured by gases, fogs, or clouds within range.
defensive. If it wants to attack unhindered, it should stay at least
5 ft. off the ground. I wouldn't want the whirlwind to be even more
dangerous to its victims by blinding them without affecting the
whirlwind. Metagame reasoning...but normally air is quite transparent
and easy to look through, so in game such an ability wouldn't
perhaps be developed by creatures on the elemental plane of air,
I guess.
> Earth - Tremorsense 30'
In PF they have tremorsense 60 ft. already. Which makes sense *har, har*
>
> Fire - Smokesight 30' (ex); vision is not obscured by smoke or fire within range.
fire up to 60 ft. range. So, opponents in the same fire or smoke
area are seen, but not those outside and behind the burning area or
smoke. The fire elemental sees only "its" current fire/smoke area.
If it's at the border it can see normally out of the fire and 60 ft.
into it.
My wording sounds a bit unclear even to me. Hmm.
> Water - Watersight 30' (ex); acts as blindsight but limited to the extent of water or similar liquids within range.
Which is halfway between shark's Blindsense 60 ft. and dolphin's
Blindsight 120 ft. and not much, as they can swim 90 ft.
Other liquids? GM's option, I guess.
LL
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