Lord of the Rings stats for D&D
Rump Ranger
major characters of Middle-Earth? As a purely mental experiment of
course. What would you say would be the stats of, say Sauron or the
Ringwraiths?
IMO, Gandalf would be an Outsider with a Celestial Template and several
levels of bard added (I know he's a wizard but Tolkien wasn't using D&D
classes when he wrote about Gandalf. He fits bard pretty well: he can
heal, cast evocations, can inspire people, and is a loremaster). Then
again, we never really see Gandalf's true power. His job was to
inspire the peoples of ME to fight for themselves. Outsider HD would be
used to give him the high BAB he has (they fight as well as fighters
and Gandalf fought as well as anyone). How many HD he has is beyond me
(I'd say epic levels).
Aragorn- no brainer as a fighter with mostly ranger levels. Something
along the lines of a fighter 4 (for weapon specialization) and like
12-16 levels of ranger. Throw in the leadership feat and include a
sub-race for humans (Numenoreans) and I'd say you can model him well.
Gimli- another no brainer, fighter who specialized in axes with a level
near 20. He seems pretty epic from the books.
Legolas- he's tough because Tolkien elves aren't D&D elves but he'd no
doubt be a fighter (not an arcane archer) with maxed out archery skills
and around 20th level or so (he's nearly equal to Aragorn and Gimli).
Bilbo Baggins- a couple levels of commoner (because at the beginning of
the Hobbit he doesn't know much), a few levels of rogue (for his
adventures with the dwarves) and then expert with lots of ranks in
poetry and knowledge (I won't classify him as a bard because he doesn't
cast spells). Power level's hard to tell.
Frodo Baggins- starts off with expert levels (he's a cut above normal
hobbits because he lived with Bilbo and learned a lot from him). Only
problem is what he becomes when he goes on his journey. He doesn't
seem to fit rogue nor does he seem to fit fighter. Maybe more expert
levels?
Samwise- starts off as commoner with gardening maxed out and gains a
few levels of fighter. He's capable of holding his own against Shelob
which has to count for something.
Merry and Pippen- both start as commoners and easily become fighters as
Merry becomes a Rider of the Rohirrim and Pippen becomes a knight of
Gondor.
Saruman is simliar to Gandalf with a permanent charm effect on his
voice and enchanter levels. An outsider all the way.
Rhadagast, although little talked about, is also an Istari. Sounds
like he has druid levels (Gandalf said he was well versed in herbs,
shapes, and in making friends with beasts).
Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level fighters
Faramir is a tough one to classify. Possible ranger (because of his
knowledge of the woods of Ithilien), fighter (his great skill), or a
paladin (because he was so good and people saw it despite the movies
making him out to be a prick).
I'm at a loss for Sauron (who's pretty a damn powerful outsider in any
case). What about Elrond or Galadriel?
What say you all?
David Alex Lamb
Rump Ranger <buttp...@fadmail.com> wrote:
>Has anyone here bothered to put out some well thought out stats as to
>major characters of Middle-Earth? As a purely mental experiment of
>course. What would you say would be the stats of, say Sauron or the
>Ringwraiths?
>
>IMO, Gandalf would be an Outsider with a Celestial Template and several
>levels of bard added (I know he's a wizard but Tolkien wasn't using D&D
>classes when he wrote about Gandalf. He fits bard pretty well: he can
>heal, cast evocations, can inspire people, and is a loremaster). Then
>again, we never really see Gandalf's true power. His job was to
>inspire the peoples of ME to fight for themselves. Outsider HD would be
>used to give him the high BAB he has (they fight as well as fighters
>and Gandalf fought as well as anyone). How many HD he has is beyond me
>(I'd say epic levels).
There are two versions of Gandalf, before and after slaying the Balrog. He
was (relatively) easily captured by Saruman the first time around, but
shattered S.' staff with a brief word the second time around.
>Legolas- he's tough because Tolkien elves aren't D&D elves but he'd no
>doubt be a fighter (not an arcane archer) with maxed out archery skills
>and around 20th level or so (he's nearly equal to Aragorn and Gimli).
The movie version also needs some acrobatics, but the book version doesn't as
far as I recall.
>Bilbo Baggins- a couple levels of commoner (because at the beginning of
>the Hobbit he doesn't know much), a few levels of rogue (for his
>adventures with the dwarves) and then expert with lots of ranks in
>poetry and knowledge (I won't classify him as a bard because he doesn't
>cast spells). Power level's hard to tell.
I think you could go with rogue from the beginning, since Bilbo was taken on
as a 'burglar'.
>Frodo Baggins- starts off with expert levels (he's a cut above normal
>hobbits because he lived with Bilbo and learned a lot from him). Only
>problem is what he becomes when he goes on his journey. He doesn't
>seem to fit rogue nor does he seem to fit fighter. Maybe more expert
>levels?
Frodo is problematic. I don't know what to do with him either. He has to
have enough levels to be able to resist the Ring for a long while, but not so
many that he can't eventually fail.
>
>Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level fighters
What about Eowen?
>I'm at a loss for Sauron (who's pretty a damn powerful outsider in any
>case). What about Elrond or Galadriel?
Elrond may have some fighter levels; he was Gil-Galad's herald at the battle
where Isildur cut the ring from Sauron's hand. He could command the Bruinen
(?) river near Rivendell, and heal Frodo, so perhaps some levels of Druid?
The ones I clipped seem reasonable to me.
One question that occurs to me: does MERP give statistics for the major
characters and, if so, how close did they come to what you've suggested?
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
Lorenz Lang
> Has anyone here bothered to put out some well thought out stats as to
> major characters of Middle-Earth? As a purely mental experiment of
> course. What would you say would be the stats of, say Sauron or the
> Ringwraiths?
The Ringwraiths are more like ghosts (rejuvenation) than wraiths in DnD.
> IMO, Gandalf would be an Outsider with a Celestial Template and several
> levels of bard added (I know he's a wizard but Tolkien wasn't using D&D
> classes when he wrote about Gandalf. He fits bard pretty well: he can
> heal, cast evocations, can inspire people, and is a loremaster). Then
> again, we never really see Gandalf's true power.
In the books Gandalf is much more 'active' than in the movies.
It starts in 'The Hobbit' with tricking the trolls and casting fireballs
at the attacking worgs and orcs IIRC. Classic wizard/sorcerer stuff.
In LotR he was responsible for the flood (not Arwen, grr), washing away
the Wraiths. The hobbits and Aragorn see his flashy firemagic from the far
and found a whole hilltop scorched and blackened (IIRC again).
In Moria he magically sealed a portal, but the Balrog broke the spell
weakening Gandalf.
> His job was to
> inspire the peoples of ME to fight for themselves. Outsider HD would be
> used to give him the high BAB he has (they fight as well as fighters
> and Gandalf fought as well as anyone). How many HD he has is beyond me
> (I'd say epic levels).
Definitely epic.
>
> Aragorn- no brainer as a fighter with mostly ranger levels. Something
> along the lines of a fighter 4 (for weapon specialization) and like
> 12-16 levels of ranger. Throw in the leadership feat and include a
> sub-race for humans (Numenoreans) and I'd say you can model him well.
Some Aristocrat levels mixed in? Close to epic, 16 - 18 feels right.
> Gimli- another no brainer, fighter who specialized in axes with a level
> near 20. He seems pretty epic from the books.
>
> Legolas- he's tough because Tolkien elves aren't D&D elves but he'd no
> doubt be a fighter (not an arcane archer) with maxed out archery skills
> and around 20th level or so (he's nearly equal to Aragorn and Gimli).
>
> Bilbo Baggins- a couple levels of commoner (because at the beginning of
> the Hobbit he doesn't know much),
Isn't he a kind of landlord? That would be aristocrat.
> a few levels of rogue (for his
> adventures with the dwarves) and then expert with lots of ranks in
> poetry and knowledge (I won't classify him as a bard because he doesn't
> cast spells). Power level's hard to tell.
>
> Frodo Baggins- starts off with expert levels (he's a cut above normal
> hobbits because he lived with Bilbo and learned a lot from him). Only
> problem is what he becomes when he goes on his journey. He doesn't
> seem to fit rogue nor does he seem to fit fighter. Maybe more expert
> levels?
20th level Ringbearer PrC ;-)
> Samwise- starts off as commoner with gardening maxed out and gains a
> few levels of fighter. He's capable of holding his own against Shelob
> which has to count for something.
> Merry and Pippen- both start as commoners and easily become fighters as
> Merry becomes a Rider of the Rohirrim and Pippen becomes a knight of
> Gondor.
IIRC Merry is aristocrat too, son of the Brandibuck(?).
> Saruman is simliar to Gandalf with a permanent charm effect on his
> voice and enchanter levels. An outsider all the way.
>
> Rhadagast, although little talked about, is also an Istari. Sounds
> like he has druid levels (Gandalf said he was well versed in herbs,
> shapes, and in making friends with beasts).
>
> Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level fighters
Who is Imrahil?
> Faramir is a tough one to classify. Possible ranger (because of his
> knowledge of the woods of Ithilien), fighter (his great skill), or a
> paladin (because he was so good and people saw it despite the movies
> making him out to be a prick).
Pal/Rng could be close. Lower level than Aragorn, mid to high 12 - 16?
> I'm at a loss for Sauron (who's pretty a damn powerful outsider in any
> case). What about Elrond or Galadriel?
Sauron: (Demi?)god Fighter/Wizard kind-of-lich with the Ring as
kind-of-phylactery???
Elrond: Fighter/Wizard
Galadriel: Sorcerer or Wizard
I see both at epic levels. Closely above Aragorn but below Gandalf.
LL
Rump Ranger
True enough. Gandalf the Grey certainly wasn't as powerful as Gandalf
the White.
> >Legolas- he's tough because Tolkien elves aren't D&D elves but he'd
no
> >doubt be a fighter (not an arcane archer) with maxed out archery
skills
> >and around 20th level or so (he's nearly equal to Aragorn and
Gimli).
>
> The movie version also needs some acrobatics, but the book version
doesn't as
> far as I recall.
>
Well, in the books Tolkien doesn't get too much into specifics on
Legolas in combat other than to say he was one hell of a shot with his
bow. The movies had him doing some real acrobatic things and I
wouldn't be suprised if he was acrobatic in the book version. He also
would have some ranks in perform (song) because he was a great singer.
> >Bilbo Baggins- a couple levels of commoner (because at the beginning
of
> >the Hobbit he doesn't know much), a few levels of rogue (for his
> >adventures with the dwarves) and then expert with lots of ranks in
> >poetry and knowledge (I won't classify him as a bard because he
doesn't
> >cast spells). Power level's hard to tell.
>
> I think you could go with rogue from the beginning, since Bilbo was
taken on
> as a 'burglar'.
>
Disagree. Bilbo starts as a commoner. No real world skills (outside
of maybe cooking and smoking) and he was literally pushed out his door
by Gandalf despite the dwarves thinking he wasn't going to be all that
good of a companion. If he was a rogue, I don't know where he would
have learned any of his skills. After doing some of the adventures,
I'd say he progressed into rogue. Gandalf knew for some reason that
he'd do something big.
> >Frodo Baggins- starts off with expert levels (he's a cut above
normal
> >hobbits because he lived with Bilbo and learned a lot from him).
Only
> >problem is what he becomes when he goes on his journey. He doesn't
> >seem to fit rogue nor does he seem to fit fighter. Maybe more
expert
> >levels?
>
> Frodo is problematic. I don't know what to do with him either. He
has to
> have enough levels to be able to resist the Ring for a long while,
but not so
> many that he can't eventually fail.
Will saves, I'd agree. But as far as class skills, he didn't do any
fighting and he didn't seem like much of a sneak. A regular guy caught
up in all that (and he eventually did fail and was only saved by
Gollum). I'd say the Ring doesn't assert itself until it wishes to
stay with Frodo and in all cases he failed. Remember, he was thinking
of hitting Bilbo at Rivendell when Bilbo wanted to check out the Ring
and even came on two occasions IIRC to coming to blows with Sam over
the Ring. It's obvious Frodo would never part with it willingly (Bilbo
did with Gandalf's help). Tolkien made it clear in many parts during
his journey that he had doubts as to whether he'd throw it into the
Crack of Doom when the time came.
Sam was the only person in the history of the Ring to give it to
another person willingly (Bilbo dropped it on the floor).
> >
>
> >Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level fighters
>
> What about Eowen?
>
Forgot about her. She's a fighter but she's pretty special being able
to smite the Witch King. Although Merry's barrow-blade had something
to do with it.
> >I'm at a loss for Sauron (who's pretty a damn powerful outsider in
any
> >case). What about Elrond or Galadriel?
>
> Elrond may have some fighter levels; he was Gil-Galad's herald at the
battle
> where Isildur cut the ring from Sauron's hand. He could command the
Bruinen
> (?) river near Rivendell, and heal Frodo, so perhaps some levels of
Druid?
>
Possibly. He's tough too because his full power is never revealed in
LOTR (I don't know about JRR's other works). As far as Sauron, he has
two stat blocks: with the Ring and without it. One has to wonder how
they'd quantify the power gained in RPG terms.
> The ones I clipped seem reasonable to me.
>
Another toughy: Tom Bambadil. The Ring had no effect on him and he
wasn't bothered by barrow-wights but would he be able to take Sauron on
in a one on one fight (if it ever came to that)? It'd be interesting
to see.
> One question that occurs to me: does MERP give statistics for the
major
> characters and, if so, how close did they come to what you've
suggested?
>
I never checked out MERP, mainly because I never liked the publisher's
rule intensive books and thousands of charts. I had a bad experience
looking at Rolemaster products. Too much detail.
David Alex Lamb
Rump Ranger <buttp...@fadmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level fighters
>>
>> What about Eowen?
>
>Forgot about her. She's a fighter but she's pretty special being able
>to smite the Witch King. Although Merry's barrow-blade had something
>to do with it.
There is also the 'prophecy' that "no man could slay the Witch King"; I don't
know how to take that into account, except perhaps a spell-like add to combat
skill.
>
>Another toughy: Tom Bambadil. The Ring had no effect on him and he
>wasn't bothered by barrow-wights but would he be able to take Sauron on
>in a one on one fight (if it ever came to that)? It'd be interesting
>to see.
I just read the section about the Council of Elrond to my son last night, and
the worthies believed that Bombadil would be the last to fall to Sauron, but
he'd fall in the end.
Rump Ranger
Lorenz Lang wrote:
> On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 06:43:26 -0800, Rump Ranger wrote:
>
> > Has anyone here bothered to put out some well thought out stats as
to
> > major characters of Middle-Earth? As a purely mental experiment of
> > course. What would you say would be the stats of, say Sauron or
the
> > Ringwraiths?
>
> The Ringwraiths are more like ghosts (rejuvenation) than wraiths in
DnD.
>
That's what I thought except that they're more like shadows with a wail
of the banshee type of effect which stuns and puts fear into men rather
than kills them. I'd also say they had a pretty powerful fear aura
(people didn't need to see them to feel their presence).
> > IMO, Gandalf would be an Outsider with a Celestial Template and
several
> > levels of bard added (I know he's a wizard but Tolkien wasn't using
D&D
> > classes when he wrote about Gandalf. He fits bard pretty well: he
can
> > heal, cast evocations, can inspire people, and is a loremaster).
Then
> > again, we never really see Gandalf's true power.
>
> In the books Gandalf is much more 'active' than in the movies.
> It starts in 'The Hobbit' with tricking the trolls and casting
fireballs
> at the attacking worgs and orcs IIRC. Classic wizard/sorcerer stuff.
Possible bardic abilities too.
> In LotR he was responsible for the flood (not Arwen, grr), washing
away
> the Wraiths.
Actually, it was Elrond IIRC because Frodo called in a voice not his
own in Elvish for the river to protect him. Glorfindel came from
behind and pushed the Nazgul into the river. I'm almost positive
Gandalf didn't do it (and you're right, Arwen didn't do it either).
>The hobbits and Aragorn see his flashy firemagic from the far
> and found a whole hilltop scorched and blackened (IIRC again).
>
Agreed. It's possible it was pyrotechnics which can be emulated by
bardic levels. The Nazgul hated light and Gandalf did have one of the
Three Rings of power. The fire one (forgot the name).
> In Moria he magically sealed a portal, but the Balrog broke the spell
> weakening Gandalf.
>
Part of it also goes into Gandalf's staff. I believe it was a magical
item and he did have on of the Three Great Rings.
> > His job was to
> > inspire the peoples of ME to fight for themselves. Outsider HD
would be
> > used to give him the high BAB he has (they fight as well as
fighters
> > and Gandalf fought as well as anyone). How many HD he has is
beyond me
> > (I'd say epic levels).
>
> Definitely epic.
>
> >
> > Aragorn- no brainer as a fighter with mostly ranger levels.
Something
> > along the lines of a fighter 4 (for weapon specialization) and like
> > 12-16 levels of ranger. Throw in the leadership feat and include a
> > sub-race for humans (Numenoreans) and I'd say you can model him
well.
>
> Some Aristocrat levels mixed in? Close to epic, 16 - 18 feels right.
>
Why does he need Aristocrat? At least not until he takes the title of
King Essamar. He didn't really run a government until after the books
were done. Before hand he was a warrior and a ranger.
> > Gimli- another no brainer, fighter who specialized in axes with a
level
> > near 20. He seems pretty epic from the books.
> >
> > Legolas- he's tough because Tolkien elves aren't D&D elves but he'd
no
> > doubt be a fighter (not an arcane archer) with maxed out archery
skills
> > and around 20th level or so (he's nearly equal to Aragorn and
Gimli).
> >
> > Bilbo Baggins- a couple levels of commoner (because at the
beginning of
> > the Hobbit he doesn't know much),
>
> Isn't he a kind of landlord? That would be aristocrat.
>
Disagree. Bilbo in the beginning of the Hobbit had only a few skills.
Mostly cooking and smoking (which was an art to the hobbits) he sounds
exactly like the NPC class of commoner at the beginning. Aristocrat is
possible.
> > a few levels of rogue (for his
> > adventures with the dwarves) and then expert with lots of ranks in
> > poetry and knowledge (I won't classify him as a bard because he
doesn't
> > cast spells). Power level's hard to tell.
> >
> > Frodo Baggins- starts off with expert levels (he's a cut above
normal
> > hobbits because he lived with Bilbo and learned a lot from him).
Only
> > problem is what he becomes when he goes on his journey. He doesn't
> > seem to fit rogue nor does he seem to fit fighter. Maybe more
expert
> > levels?
>
> 20th level Ringbearer PrC ;-)
>
Yeah, but Frodo was kinda weak outside of his ability to go on the
journey. He did an epic thing while being an everyday kind of guy.
> > Samwise- starts off as commoner with gardening maxed out and gains
a
> > few levels of fighter. He's capable of holding his own against
Shelob
> > which has to count for something.
>
> > Merry and Pippen- both start as commoners and easily become
fighters as
> > Merry becomes a Rider of the Rohirrim and Pippen becomes a knight
of
> > Gondor.
>
> IIRC Merry is aristocrat too, son of the Brandibuck(?).
>
> > Saruman is simliar to Gandalf with a permanent charm effect on his
> > voice and enchanter levels. An outsider all the way.
> >
> > Rhadagast, although little talked about, is also an Istari. Sounds
> > like he has druid levels (Gandalf said he was well versed in herbs,
> > shapes, and in making friends with beasts).
> >
> > Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level fighters
>
> Who is Imrahil?
>
The Prince who leads the men of Gondor when Denethor goes mad and
Faramir is in the Houses of the Healing. Aragorn refused to take his
Kingship until after the Ring is destroyed and he plays a pretty big
part in the battles of ROTK (in the books, not the movie).
> > Faramir is a tough one to classify. Possible ranger (because of
his
> > knowledge of the woods of Ithilien), fighter (his great skill), or
a
> > paladin (because he was so good and people saw it despite the
movies
> > making him out to be a prick).
>
> Pal/Rng could be close. Lower level than Aragorn, mid to high 12 -
16?
>
Hard to tell but he could best any Rider of the Rohirrim in combat (at
least that's what Eowyn thinks when she sizes him up). The only two
people of Rohan I think who could take Faramir (or give him a run for
his money) would be Eomer or Theoden.
> > I'm at a loss for Sauron (who's pretty a damn powerful outsider in
any
> > case). What about Elrond or Galadriel?
>
> Sauron: (Demi?)god Fighter/Wizard kind-of-lich with the Ring as
> kind-of-phylactery???
>
A lich works well but I'd say he's an outsider of some sort. Hard to
tell except that he's capable of controling weather at least 1000 miles
away and calling evil men to his call from all over the East and South.
> Elrond: Fighter/Wizard
> Galadriel: Sorcerer or Wizard
> I see both at epic levels. Closely above Aragorn but below Gandalf.
>
Below Gandalf, but I'd think at least Elrond would wipe the floor with
Aragorn. Seriously. Galadriel doesn't strike me as the combat type.
I'd say she has some pretty strong charm spells at her disposal.
Elrond sounds like he has at least some druidic powers (able to control
the river which guards his land). Also remember that both had one of
the Three Great Rings which have to be major artifacts.
Rump Ranger
David Alex Lamb wrote:
> In article <1105118372.0...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> Rump Ranger <buttp...@fadmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level fighters
> >>
> >> What about Eowen?
> >
> >Forgot about her. She's a fighter but she's pretty special being
able
> >to smite the Witch King. Although Merry's barrow-blade had
something
> >to do with it.
>
> There is also the 'prophecy' that "no man could slay the Witch King";
I don't
> know how to take that into account, except perhaps a spell-like add
to combat
> skill.
Maybe a holy smite ability?
> >
> >Another toughy: Tom Bambadil. The Ring had no effect on him and he
> >wasn't bothered by barrow-wights but would he be able to take Sauron
on
> >in a one on one fight (if it ever came to that)? It'd be
interesting
> >to see.
>
> I just read the section about the Council of Elrond to my son last
night, and
> the worthies believed that Bombadil would be the last to fall to
Sauron, but
> he'd fall in the end.
>
That's right, because Gandalf said so (and he's the only one who really
knew outside of perhaps Elrond). Didn't one of them (Glorfindel IIRC)
suggest they give the Ring to Bambadil to hold?
Peter Mork
> LOTR (I don't know about JRR's other works). As far as Sauron, he has
> two stat blocks: with the Ring and without it. One has to wonder how
> they'd quantify the power gained in RPG terms.
>
In the old (ICE) LOTR role-playing game, Sauron was level 2N when he made
the ring. He invested N of his levels into the ring, leaving him at level
N. However, the ring granted Sauron +2N levels. Thus:
Pre-ring-crafting: 2N
Post-ring-crafting with ring: 3N
Without ring: N
(Where N is some suitably ridiculous number. IIRC they chose N=40, in a
system in which characters pretty much maxed out at level 10.)
Peter
John Phillips
"David Alex Lamb" wrote
> Rump Ranger wrote:
> >>
> >> >Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level fighters
> >>
> >> What about Eowen?
> >
> >Forgot about her. She's a fighter but she's pretty special being able
> >to smite the Witch King. Although Merry's barrow-blade had something
> >to do with it.
>
> There is also the 'prophecy' that "no man could slay the Witch King"; I
don't
> know how to take that into account, except perhaps a spell-like add to
combat
> skill.
All his DR and what not are not effective vs.Women/Hobbits?
John
Rump Ranger
The blade Merry used had special properties which pierced him. It's
debatable whether Eowyn would have been able to damage him without that
special blade striking him.
Shadow Wolf
news:I9yJq...@beaver.cs.washington.edu:
This sounds roughly like Item Familiar to me...
--
Shadow Wolf
shadow_wolf1 at hotpop dot com
Stories at http://www.asstr.org/~Shadow_Wolf
AIF at http://www.geocities.com/shadowolf3400
Rump Ranger
Shadow Wolf wrote:
> "Peter Mork" <pm...@cs.washington.edu> wrote in
> news:I9yJq...@beaver.cs.washington.edu:
>
> >> Possibly. He's tough too because his full power is never revealed
in
> >> LOTR (I don't know about JRR's other works). As far as Sauron, he
> >> has two stat blocks: with the Ring and without it. One has to
wonder
> >> how they'd quantify the power gained in RPG terms.
> >>
> >
> > In the old (ICE) LOTR role-playing game, Sauron was level 2N when
he
> > made the ring. He invested N of his levels into the ring, leaving
him
> > at level N. However, the ring granted Sauron +2N levels. Thus:
> > Pre-ring-crafting: 2N
> > Post-ring-crafting with ring: 3N
> > Without ring: N
> >
> > (Where N is some suitably ridiculous number. IIRC they chose N=40,
in
> > a system in which characters pretty much maxed out at level 10.)
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >
>
> This sounds roughly like Item Familiar to me...
>
Where is that from?
Shadow Wolf
news:1105123592.4...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
The new Unearthed Arcana.
Ian R Malcomson
>IMO, Gandalf would be an Outsider with a Celestial Template and several
>levels of bard added (I know he's a wizard but Tolkien wasn't using D&D
>classes when he wrote about Gandalf. He fits bard pretty well: he can
>heal, cast evocations, can inspire people, and is a loremaster). Then
>again, we never really see Gandalf's true power. His job was to
>inspire the peoples of ME to fight for themselves. Outsider HD would be
>used to give him the high BAB he has (they fight as well as fighters
>and Gandalf fought as well as anyone). How many HD he has is beyond me
>(I'd say epic levels).
I don't think the Celestial template works for Gandalf as well as, say,
creating "Istari" as a race unto itself.
Anyway... after a bit of unsuccessful searching - does anyone know
where a fairly extensive (as in heading back a few years) archive of
this NG can be found? We've done this "What would LotR D&D stats be..."
before - it might be of interest to recap.
--
Ian R Malcomson
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box"
Auspex
> Lorenz Lang wrote:
>> In LotR [Gandalf] was responsible for the flood
>> (not Arwen, grr), washing away
>> the Wraiths.
>
> Actually, it was Elrond IIRC because Frodo called in a voice not his
Very correct. I've got no problem with the movie replacing Glorfindel with
Arwen - there were too many characters for a movie, anyway.
> own in Elvish for the river to protect him. Glorfindel came from
> behind and pushed the Nazgul into the river. I'm almost positive
> Gandalf didn't do it (and you're right, Arwen didn't do it either).
>> > Aragorn- no brainer as a fighter with mostly ranger levels.
... Some Aristocrat levels mixed in? Close to epic, 16 - 18 feels right.
>>
>
> Why does he need Aristocrat? At least not until he takes the title of
> King Essamar. He didn't really run a government until after the books
> were done. Before hand he was a warrior and a ranger.
He was still highly aware of his lineage, and Aristocrat seems right.
> Yeah, but Frodo was kinda weak outside of his ability to go on the
> journey. He did an epic thing while being an everyday kind of guy.
That's just the nature of hobbits - you could say the same of Bilbo, Sam,
Merry and Pippin.
>> > Rhadagast, although little talked about, is also an Istari. Sounds
>> > like he has druid levels (Gandalf said he was well versed in herbs,
>> > shapes, and in making friends with beasts).
iirc, the Ents knew him, well, too. Which fits with Druid.
>> > Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level fighters
Boromir has to be at least a level higher than Faramir, as a fighter.
> A lich works well but I'd say he's an outsider of some sort. Hard to
> tell except that he's capable of controling weather at least 1000 miles
> away and calling evil men to his call from all over the East and South.
is that last even magical? It could as easily have been done by FedEx.
> Below Gandalf, but I'd think at least Elrond would wipe the floor with
> Aragorn. Seriously.
He was probably the most important survivor of the previous battle to
overthrow Sauron. No wimp.
--
Auspex
Rump Ranger
Ian R Malcomson wrote:
> Rump Ranger <buttp...@fadmail.com> writes
>
> >IMO, Gandalf would be an Outsider with a Celestial Template and
several
> >levels of bard added (I know he's a wizard but Tolkien wasn't using
D&D
> >classes when he wrote about Gandalf. He fits bard pretty well: he
can
> >heal, cast evocations, can inspire people, and is a loremaster).
Then
> >again, we never really see Gandalf's true power. His job was to
> >inspire the peoples of ME to fight for themselves. Outsider HD would
be
> >used to give him the high BAB he has (they fight as well as fighters
> >and Gandalf fought as well as anyone). How many HD he has is beyond
me
> >(I'd say epic levels).
>
> I don't think the Celestial template works for Gandalf as well as,
say,
> creating "Istari" as a race unto itself.
>
How would you go about that seeing as how the only two Istari which we
see up close and personal have different powers? Yeah, we see
Rhadagast for maybe 3 pages but all we've really got about him is
Gandalf's description and that he told the Eagles about Saruman's news
at Gandalf's request. That and the fact that Gandalf used his name for
Beorn to gain favor in the Hobbit. If Rhadagast or the other two make
an appearence in any other Tolkien work, then obviously things change.
All I know is that Gandalf the White seems to me like a Celestial
Outsider (and Saruman is a fallen one). I'm all game for an Istari
template if it can be done.
> Anyway... after a bit of unsuccessful searching - does anyone know
> where a fairly extensive (as in heading back a few years) archive of
> this NG can be found? We've done this "What would LotR D&D stats
be..."
> before - it might be of interest to recap.
>
Did you check Google? I did and found the discussions to be from a few
years back and mostly a flamewar.
Rump Ranger
Ah. I don't have that. Anyone think the Complete Arcane is worth it?
If it's better than Complete Warrior I'd be pretty happy.
Rump Ranger
Auspex wrote:
> Rump Ranger wrote:
>
> > Lorenz Lang wrote:
>
> >> In LotR [Gandalf] was responsible for the flood
> >> (not Arwen, grr), washing away
> >> the Wraiths.
> >
> > Actually, it was Elrond IIRC because Frodo called in a voice not
his
>
> Very correct. I've got no problem with the movie replacing
Glorfindel with
> Arwen - there were too many characters for a movie, anyway.
>
My problem with Arwen in that scene (and in fact the whole scene after
Weathertop) is that Frodo seems to go AWOL when in the book he didn't.
I'd rather see a flaming Glorfindel charge the Nazgul while Frodo
stands against them on his steed than the whole forcing of Arwen down
our throats. PJ spent way too much time showing the whole
Aragorn/Arwen thing when she doesn't say anything until the end in the
books (and no PJ, Elrond wasn't an asshole IRT his daughter taking
Aragorn as a husband).
> > own in Elvish for the river to protect him. Glorfindel came from
> > behind and pushed the Nazgul into the river. I'm almost positive
> > Gandalf didn't do it (and you're right, Arwen didn't do it either).
>
> >> > Aragorn- no brainer as a fighter with mostly ranger levels.
> ... Some Aristocrat levels mixed in? Close to epic, 16 - 18 feels
right.
> >>
> >
> > Why does he need Aristocrat? At least not until he takes the title
of
> > King Essamar. He didn't really run a government until after the
books
> > were done. Before hand he was a warrior and a ranger.
>
> He was still highly aware of his lineage, and Aristocrat seems right.
>
Leadership feat and ranks in diplomacy and knowledge (nobility) works
better. There's no need to add a few levels of an NPC class which is
weaker than the adventuring ones when the skill system allows this.
Aragorn also didn't seek his lineage until he had little choice.
> > Yeah, but Frodo was kinda weak outside of his ability to go on the
> > journey. He did an epic thing while being an everyday kind of guy.
>
> That's just the nature of hobbits - you could say the same of Bilbo,
Sam,
> Merry and Pippin.
>
Which was Tolkien's point. Bilbo starts off in the Hobbit as a common
man who's swept up in huge events. Gandalf insisted he go despite the
protest of the dwarves. Gandalf also insisted that Merry and Pippen
join the Fellowship despite Elrond thinking that they wouldn't be good
for it. The thing is that outside of Frodo, all the other hobbits show
signs of entering what could be called D&D classes during their
adventures. Frodo doesn't fight nor do anything like sneaking but
instead bears the Ring. No easy task but he'd fail without Sam and
Gollum.
> >> > Rhadagast, although little talked about, is also an Istari.
Sounds
> >> > like he has druid levels (Gandalf said he was well versed in
herbs,
> >> > shapes, and in making friends with beasts).
>
> iirc, the Ents knew him, well, too. Which fits with Druid.
>
I don't recall if the Ents knew him or not, but the Beornings (from the
Hobbit) did. IIRC, Beorn told Gandalf that Rhadagast wasn't all that
bad as far as wizards go. Beorn sounds like a druid of sorts too (or a
werebear).
> >> > Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level fighters
>
> Boromir has to be at least a level higher than Faramir, as a fighter.
>
Possibly. But Faramir is either a custom ranger or a custom paladin.
He's good to a fault (everyone who meets him notices this) but he's
also got a lot of woodland skill.
> > A lich works well but I'd say he's an outsider of some sort. Hard
to
> > tell except that he's capable of controling weather at least 1000
miles
> > away and calling evil men to his call from all over the East and
South.
>
> is that last even magical? It could as easily have been done by
FedEx.
>
IIRC, Gandalf explained how when the Shadow rebuilt Burad-Dur that all
the evil in the world was drawn to Mordor as if they were drawn- almost
like a vortex of evil effect which compels all evil to seek out Mordor.
Consider: Gollum left the Misty Mountains and was drawn to Mordor. He
went alone and was captured at the Morranon. There's no way Sauron
sent a messenger to draw Gollum to the gate (granted, the two were
linked because of the Ring, but it's evidence that Sauron has sway over
evil minds). Furthermore, during the last battle at the gate, Sauron's
Eye gave his forces strength and commanded by sheer will. When his Eye
shifted to Oruduin when Frodo claimed the Ring, the forces of Mordor
were severly weakened.
> > Below Gandalf, but I'd think at least Elrond would wipe the floor
with
> > Aragorn. Seriously.
>
> He was probably the most important survivor of the previous battle to
> overthrow Sauron. No wimp.
>
Exactly. His sons kicked butt in the book so I'd guess the father
could do so too.
Rump Ranger
Makes sense. Where was Gandalf in levels and did the ability to gain
+?N levels apply to those who mastered the Ring? IIRC, in the books it
was hinted that if Gandalf, Elrond, or Galadriel (possibly Celeborn,
Glorfindel, Aragorn, or Saruman) had the Ring and had enough time to
master it, they'd probably be able to overthrow and destroy Sauron.
Only problem is that the Ring would turn them into the next Dark Lord
and hence why it had to be destroyed.
drow
> The thing is that outside of Frodo, all the other hobbits show
> signs of entering what could be called D&D classes during their
> adventures. Frodo doesn't fight nor do anything like sneaking but
> instead bears the Ring. No easy task but he'd fail without Sam and
> Gollum.
obviously, frodo was taking levels in 'Ringbearer', a custom class
designed by the DM with incredibly strong Will saves and little else.
(enough to overcome the steadily increasing DCs of the ring's influence
as he drew closer to mordor, until he rolls a natural 1 at the cracks
of doom.) after destroying the ring, of course, the player realized
that his character was now utterly pointless and chose to retire him.
--
\^\ // dr...@bin.sh (CARRIER LOST) <http://www.bin.sh/>
\ // - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
// \ X-Windows: The defacto sub-standard.
// \_\ -- Dude from DPAK
Ian R Malcomson
>
>Ian R Malcomson wrote:
<Snip>
>> I don't think the Celestial template works for Gandalf as well as,
>say,
>> creating "Istari" as a race unto itself.
>
>How would you go about that seeing as how the only two Istari which we
>see up close and personal have different powers? Yeah, we see
>Rhadagast for maybe 3 pages but all we've really got about him is
>Gandalf's description and that he told the Eagles about Saruman's news
>at Gandalf's request. That and the fact that Gandalf used his name for
>Beorn to gain favor in the Hobbit. If Rhadagast or the other two make
>an appearence in any other Tolkien work, then obviously things change.
>
>All I know is that Gandalf the White seems to me like a Celestial
>Outsider (and Saruman is a fallen one). I'm all game for an Istari
>template if it can be done.
Nooo, not a *template*... What would you apply the template to? (Read
as in a similar line to "What would you apply a Solar template to....").
As to the lack of info, well... Sil. and the Histories do provide more
snippets, but they are pretty much just that - snippets. I'd go about
it by... making it up :)
Note that I'm not belittling your idea of making Gandalf a celestial -
just stating that it's not a path I'd go down for him. Give Gandalf to
100 people, and get 100 different Gandalfs!
>> Anyway... after a bit of unsuccessful searching - does anyone know
>> where a fairly extensive (as in heading back a few years) archive of
>> this NG can be found? We've done this "What would LotR D&D stats
>be..."
>> before - it might be of interest to recap.
>
>Did you check Google? I did and found the discussions to be from a few
>years back and mostly a flamewar.
Aha, I've found it - thanks! Some of it was a flamewar - par for the
course here (c'est la vie). Anyway, I found my thinkings on LotR
character stats in there. The thread is around 2003, and there was some
good (non-flamey) discussion on my attempts, particularly from Kevin
Lowe and Chris Blasken.
**
Gandalf: 12HD Outsider (Maiar/Istari), Bard 10, divine rank 0. Barred
from using his Outsider/Maiar/divine abilities overtly until being sent
back to Middle-earth as Gandalf the White. Does not gain levels
normally. As Gandalf the White, I have a debate: either 20HD
Outsider/Bard 10, or 12HD Outsider/Bard 8/Cleric 10 (he "turns" the
Nazgûl - his white staff could be said to enhance his turning ability).
If the non-Cleric path is taken, then I suggest that Maiar or Istari (as
a subtype) grants turning ability. NG.
**
Bilbo: Expert 3 (scribe/scholar); gains Rogue levels during The Hobbit,
advances his Expert levels thereafter (picking back up his role as
scribe and scholar). NG. End of The Hobbit: Exp3/Rog8. End of LotR:
Exp12/Rog8. Other Notes: Expert class skills: Bluff, Decipher Script,
Gather Information, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (history), Knowledge
(local), Listen, Profession (scribe), Search, Speak Language, Spot.
**
Frodo: Expert 2 (scribe/scholar)/Rogue 1 (under tutelage and influence
of Bilbo) at the start of LotR. Gains levels as a Rogue throughout
LotR. LG. End of LotR: Rog12. Other Notes: Expert skills as Bilbo.
**
Sam: Expert 4 (gardener) as gardener to Bilbo. Gains levels in Rogue
during the early portion of LotR, but switches to Ranger during the
journey into Mordor. NG. End of LotR: Exp4/Rog3/Rgr6. Other Notes:
Expert skills: Craft (woodworking), Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge
(nature), Profession (gardener), Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival, Use
Rope. Two-weapon fighting combat style (heck, he wields Galadriel's
light and a sword against Shelob...).
**
Merry: Aristocrat 3 as Master of Buckland. Gains levels in Rogue up to
Isengard. Gains levels in Fighter in service to Théoden. NG. End of
LotR: Ari3/Rog3/Ftr5.
**
Pippin: Rogue 2. Continues to gain Rogue levels up to Minas Tirith.
Gains Fighter levels in service to Denethor II and the defence of Minas
Tirith. CG. End of LotR: Rog6/Ftr4.
**
Aragorn: Ranger 10. Continues to gain levels as a Ranger until
accepting his status as heir to Isildur. Gains Fighter levels
thereafter, in the defence of Pelargir and subsequent battles. NG, but
shifts to LG after accepting his role as a leader of men. End of LotR:
Rgr14/Ftr5. Two-weapon fighting combat style.
**
Gimli: Fighter 7. Continues to gain levels as a Fighter throughout.
CG. End of LotR: Ftr16.
**
Legolas: Ranger 7. Continues to gain levels as a Ranger throughout.
CG. End of LotR: Rgr16. Archery combat style.
**
Boromir: Fighter 9. Continues to gain levels as a Fighter. LN. At
death Ftr12.
**
Faramir: Ranger 4/Fighter 3. Continues to gain levels as a Fighter.
LG. End of LotR: Rgr4/Ftr6.
**
Théoden: Ranger 4/Fighter 8. Continues to gain Fighter levels
throughout. N under the influence of Gríma/Saruman, NG when freed from
that curse by Gandalf. At death: Rgr4/Ftr11.
**
Eomer: Ranger 7. Continues to gain levels as a Ranger. CG. End of
LotR: Rgr12.
**
Eowyn: Ranger 5. Continues to gain levels as a Ranger. CG. End of
LotR: Rgr10.
**
Denethor II: Aristocrat 8. Gains no levels during the LotR. LN..
**
Why hobbits start with NPC levels: Hobbits are a simple folk, normally
far removed from the heroics. Indeed, part of the point behind LotR is
to follow common folk (the hobbits) into herodom. We (as readers) are
essentially the hobbits (as normal folk) following the path to valour
and glory. We see Middle-earth through their eyes.
**
Why Rohirrim have Ranger levels: Rohirrim are largely nomadic (Survival
skill), and are attached to their horses (wild empathy). This makes
them "natural" rangers.
**
***************
[From sub-thread discussion on the Maiar with Deathdog...]
If we assume the lower DvR represent the Maiar, and
that the two greatest Valar (Manwë and Melkor) are represented by DvR 20
(which is not to say Morgoth was DvR 20 - he fled from Tulkas, which is
not something I'd envisage Melkor pre-fall doing), the others should
logically fall somewhere between (with the Aratar at the upper end).
So...
--ARATAR--
Manwë Súlimo, Lord of the Breath of Arda: DvR 20
Varda (Elbereth), Lady of the Stars [f]: DvR 19
Ulmo, Lord of Waters [m]: DvR 18
Aulë [m]: DvR 18
Yavanna Kementári, Giver of Fruits [f]: DvR 17
Oromë (Aldaron, Tauron) [m]: DvR 16
Námo (Mandos), Keeper of the Houses of the Dead, Fëanturi [m]: DvR 15
Nienna, Fëanturi [f]: DvR15
--OTHER VALAR--
Irmo (Lórien), Fëanturi [m]: DvR 14
Estë the Gentle [f]: DvR 13
Vairë the Weaver of History [f]: DvR 12
Tulkas Astaldo [m]: DvR 11
Vána the Ever-Young [f]: DvR 10
Nessa [f]: DvR 8
...And...
Melkor: DvR 20, DvR 9 (after fall, as Morgoth)
**
Tom Bombadil (another possible Maia) could possibly be DvR 1-2. Why ot
DvR 0? Because you could state that the Ring cannot affect beings of
DvR 1 or higher - the Ring had no effect on Bombadil, but Gandalf was
certainly concerned that it might affect himself. Why not higher?
Because, let's face it, he just doesn't come across as being divine
enough.
**
Rump Ranger
drow wrote:
> Alien mind control rays made Rump Ranger <buttp...@fadmail.com>
write:
> > The thing is that outside of Frodo, all the other hobbits show
> > signs of entering what could be called D&D classes during their
> > adventures. Frodo doesn't fight nor do anything like sneaking but
> > instead bears the Ring. No easy task but he'd fail without Sam and
> > Gollum.
>
> obviously, frodo was taking levels in 'Ringbearer', a custom class
> designed by the DM with incredibly strong Will saves and little else.
> (enough to overcome the steadily increasing DCs of the ring's
influence
> as he drew closer to mordor, until he rolls a natural 1 at the cracks
> of doom.) after destroying the ring, of course, the player realized
> that his character was now utterly pointless and chose to retire him.
>
Heh. I wonder what Gollum's level was. Oh wait, Gollum took orders
from Frodo, didn't he?
Rump Ranger
My bad.
> As to the lack of info, well... Sil. and the Histories do provide
more
> snippets, but they are pretty much just that - snippets. I'd go
about
> it by... making it up :)
>
> Note that I'm not belittling your idea of making Gandalf a celestial
-
> just stating that it's not a path I'd go down for him. Give Gandalf
to
> 100 people, and get 100 different Gandalfs!
>
Yup. Although I'd say Sir Ian did about as good a Gandalf on-screen as
anyone could.
That makes sense.
> **
> Bilbo: Expert 3 (scribe/scholar); gains Rogue levels during The
Hobbit,
> advances his Expert levels thereafter (picking back up his role as
> scribe and scholar). NG. End of The Hobbit: Exp3/Rog8. End of
LotR:
> Exp12/Rog8. Other Notes: Expert class skills: Bluff, Decipher
Script,
> Gather Information, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (history),
Knowledge
> (local), Listen, Profession (scribe), Search, Speak Language, Spot.
> **
I disagree with expert beginning with the hobbit. Maybe a 1-2 commoner
which gains levels in rogue on the way.
> Frodo: Expert 2 (scribe/scholar)/Rogue 1 (under tutelage and
influence
> of Bilbo) at the start of LotR. Gains levels as a Rogue throughout
> LotR. LG. End of LotR: Rog12. Other Notes: Expert skills as Bilbo.
> **
I'd go for the expert and maybe a little rogue for Frodo starting.
Doesn't seem to gain that many levels over the book though.
> Sam: Expert 4 (gardener) as gardener to Bilbo. Gains levels in Rogue
> during the early portion of LotR, but switches to Ranger during the
> journey into Mordor. NG. End of LotR: Exp4/Rog3/Rgr6. Other Notes:
> Expert skills: Craft (woodworking), Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge
> (nature), Profession (gardener), Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival,
Use
> Rope. Two-weapon fighting combat style (heck, he wields Galadriel's
> light and a sword against Shelob...).
> **
I simply disagree with this power level. Maybe exp 1-2 for gardener
with a little rogue put in during the time with the fellowship before
Rauros. I'd say he rather became a fighter with handle animal in the
later books. I don't think he needed two-weapon fighting too much
because he never really used the phial as a weapon (at least to stike
Shelob). He held it to shine light in her eyes.
> Merry: Aristocrat 3 as Master of Buckland. Gains levels in Rogue up
to
> Isengard. Gains levels in Fighter in service to Théoden. NG. End
of
> LotR: Ari3/Rog3/Ftr5.
> **
Was he master of Buckland before Fellowship? IIRC, he and Pippen were
the youngsters and still haven't "come of age" by the time they left
the Shire. Seems odd a young Merry would run that part of the Shire.
After the Scouring I'd agree.
> Pippin: Rogue 2. Continues to gain Rogue levels up to Minas Tirith.
> Gains Fighter levels in service to Denethor II and the defence of
Minas
> Tirith. CG. End of LotR: Rog6/Ftr4.
> **
I'd say the levels are too far advanced. Maybe Rog3/Ftr3 but not tenth
level. He did kill a troll but he didn't wade into battle and kill a
couple score like Gimli, Aragorn, or Legolas.
> Aragorn: Ranger 10. Continues to gain levels as a Ranger until
> accepting his status as heir to Isildur. Gains Fighter levels
> thereafter, in the defence of Pelargir and subsequent battles. NG,
but
> shifts to LG after accepting his role as a leader of men. End of
LotR:
> Rgr14/Ftr5. Two-weapon fighting combat style.
> **
Not much argument expect that I'd put Aragorn as archery style. He
never wielded two weapons (didn't need to with the Arundil).
> Gimli: Fighter 7. Continues to gain levels as a Fighter throughout.
> CG. End of LotR: Ftr16.
> **
I'd say he started higher. He fought against Uruk-hai in Fellowship
but not many and he had Legolas to back him up. His first real battle
was Helm's Deep and he killed like 46 orcs.
> Legolas: Ranger 7. Continues to gain levels as a Ranger throughout.
> CG. End of LotR: Rgr16. Archery combat style.
> **
Disagree as a ranger. He couldn't track and didn't seem to have
healing powers like Aragorn did. He could be a varient which didn't
cast spells but that would take away all the feats I'd imagine he'd
have and (the obvious) weapon specialization. I'd compromise and say
maybe Rgr5/Ftr15. He was a few thousand years old.
> Boromir: Fighter 9. Continues to gain levels as a Fighter. LN. At
> death Ftr12.
> **
> Faramir: Ranger 4/Fighter 3. Continues to gain levels as a Fighter.
> LG. End of LotR: Rgr4/Ftr6.
> **
> Théoden: Ranger 4/Fighter 8. Continues to gain Fighter levels
> throughout. N under the influence of Gríma/Saruman, NG when freed
from
> that curse by Gandalf. At death: Rgr4/Ftr11.
> **
How would Theoden be a ranger? I don't get it. He'd be a fighter with
maxed out stats in riding, mounted fighting feats, and leadership.
> Eomer: Ranger 7. Continues to gain levels as a Ranger. CG. End of
> LotR: Rgr12.
> **
Again, I don't see how Eomer is a ranger. He knows the land but not to
the level like a true Dunedain ranger did. Furthermore, he was a
master at mounted combat. Fighter fits him better for the feats. I
don't see him as CG but rather LG.
> Eowyn: Ranger 5. Continues to gain levels as a Ranger. CG. End of
> LotR: Rgr10.
> **
I fail to see ranger in her either. Fighter all the way with maybe
some prestige class called shieldmaiden.
> Denethor II: Aristocrat 8. Gains no levels during the LotR. LN..
> **
Wasn't Denethor a mighty warrior in his youth? He also had the power
to sort of read men's minds and gaze in a palantir without being
dominated by Sauron (granted Sauron showed him bad things but he showed
the ability to use it for his own as well).
> Why hobbits start with NPC levels: Hobbits are a simple folk,
normally
> far removed from the heroics. Indeed, part of the point behind LotR
is
> to follow common folk (the hobbits) into herodom. We (as readers)
are
> essentially the hobbits (as normal folk) following the path to valour
> and glory. We see Middle-earth through their eyes.
> **
Agreed.
> Why Rohirrim have Ranger levels: Rohirrim are largely nomadic
(Survival
> skill), and are attached to their horses (wild empathy). This makes
> them "natural" rangers.
> **
It's possible some had a couple ranger levels here and there but I'm
inclined to believe they were more or less fighters with a lot of
training on mounted combat and riding. One could also make a PrC
entitled Rohirrim with those skills and a feat progression including a
lot of mounted combat.
Tom Bambadil is an enigma. Tolkien left him that way on purpose.
Taneli Pirinen
It was Elrond, who made the flood, but the white horse forms in the
flood were of Gandalfs doing.
>>The hobbits and Aragorn see his flashy firemagic from the far
>>and found a whole hilltop scorched and blackened (IIRC again).
>>
>
>
> Agreed. It's possible it was pyrotechnics which can be emulated by
> bardic levels. The Nazgul hated light and Gandalf did have one of the
> Three Rings of power. The fire one (forgot the name).
Narya.
>>In Moria he magically sealed a portal, but the Balrog broke the spell
>>weakening Gandalf.
>>
>
> Part of it also goes into Gandalf's staff. I believe it was a magical
> item and he did have on of the Three Great Rings.
The staff is something like the ring for the wizards. When Saruman lost
his staff, he also lost all his powers (except the sweet tongue).
>>>His job was to
>>>inspire the peoples of ME to fight for themselves. Outsider HD
>
> would be
>
>>>used to give him the high BAB he has (they fight as well as
>
> fighters
>
>>>and Gandalf fought as well as anyone). How many HD he has is
>
> beyond me
>
>>>(I'd say epic levels).
>>
>>Definitely epic.
>>
>>
>>>Aragorn- no brainer as a fighter with mostly ranger levels.
>
> Something
>
>>>along the lines of a fighter 4 (for weapon specialization) and like
>>>12-16 levels of ranger. Throw in the leadership feat and include a
>>>sub-race for humans (Numenoreans) and I'd say you can model him
>
> well.
>
>>Some Aristocrat levels mixed in? Close to epic, 16 - 18 feels right.
>>
>
> Why does he need Aristocrat? At least not until he takes the title of
> King Essamar. He didn't really run a government until after the books
> were done. Before hand he was a warrior and a ranger.
Essamar?
Elessar he chose as his coronation name, and Telcontar (or strider) as
the name for his kin.
>>>Gimli- another no brainer, fighter who specialized in axes with a
>
> level
>
>>>near 20. He seems pretty epic from the books.
>>>
>>>Legolas- he's tough because Tolkien elves aren't D&D elves but he'd
>
> no
>
>>>doubt be a fighter (not an arcane archer) with maxed out archery
>
> skills
>
>>>and around 20th level or so (he's nearly equal to Aragorn and
>
> Gimli).
>
>>>Bilbo Baggins- a couple levels of commoner (because at the
>
> beginning of
>
>>>the Hobbit he doesn't know much),
>>
>>Isn't he a kind of landlord? That would be aristocrat.
>>
>
> Disagree. Bilbo in the beginning of the Hobbit had only a few skills.
> Mostly cooking and smoking (which was an art to the hobbits) he sounds
> exactly like the NPC class of commoner at the beginning. Aristocrat is
> possible.
Bilbo was an heir of the family of Baggins, a very well off family in
the Hobbiton and all of Shire. Aristocrat most likely.
Also, hobbits are very quiet by their nature, that is their magic. So a
level or two of Rouge is not at all out of question (just pick right
skills and take something else for inappropriate class features).
>>>a few levels of rogue (for his
>>>adventures with the dwarves) and then expert with lots of ranks in
>>>poetry and knowledge (I won't classify him as a bard because he
>
> doesn't
>
>>>cast spells). Power level's hard to tell.
>>>
>>>Frodo Baggins- starts off with expert levels (he's a cut above
>
> normal
>
>>>hobbits because he lived with Bilbo and learned a lot from him).
>
> Only
>
>>>problem is what he becomes when he goes on his journey. He doesn't
>>>seem to fit rogue nor does he seem to fit fighter. Maybe more
>
> expert
>
>>>levels?
>>
>>20th level Ringbearer PrC ;-)
>>
>
>
> Yeah, but Frodo was kinda weak outside of his ability to go on the
> journey. He did an epic thing while being an everyday kind of guy.
Frodo was Bilbo's heir, and so he most likely had levels in Aristocrat
(and maybe in Rouge... as the hobbits' magic is their quietness, when
they feel so).
>>>Samwise- starts off as commoner with gardening maxed out and gains
>
> a
>
>>>few levels of fighter. He's capable of holding his own against
>
> Shelob
>
>>>which has to count for something.
>>
>>>Merry and Pippen- both start as commoners and easily become
>
> fighters as
>
>>>Merry becomes a Rider of the Rohirrim and Pippen becomes a knight
>
> of
>
>>>Gondor.
>>
>>IIRC Merry is aristocrat too, son of the Brandibuck(?).
Meriadoc Branbybuck and Peregrin Took, both young members of great
families of the Hobbits.
>>>Saruman is simliar to Gandalf with a permanent charm effect on his
>>>voice and enchanter levels. An outsider all the way.
>>>
>>>Rhadagast, although little talked about, is also an Istari. Sounds
>>>like he has druid levels (Gandalf said he was well versed in herbs,
>>>shapes, and in making friends with beasts).
>>>
>>>Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level fighters
>>
>>Who is Imrahil?
>>
>
> The Prince who leads the men of Gondor when Denethor goes mad and
> Faramir is in the Houses of the Healing. Aragorn refused to take his
> Kingship until after the Ring is destroyed and he plays a pretty big
> part in the battles of ROTK (in the books, not the movie).
>
Movie sucks in many regards.
Both are ancient beyond recockning (well, not really, Tolkien tells
somewhere when they were born), but on the Third Age of the Light, they
were ancient beyond any imagination. Elrond was in the battles in the
end of the second age of light, and he old by then. Galadriel had seen
the lights in the west, and had born in the first age, if I'm not
totally mistaken.
But one must also remember, that the spirits that came to middle-earth
as the five wizards were also ancient beyond recockning. They just were
not allowed to use much of their strength, as it would have destroyed
the lands that Eru and the valar so love...
--
TP
David Alex Lamb
Rump Ranger <buttp...@fadmail.com> wrote:
>Ah. I don't have that. Anyone think the Complete Arcane is worth it?
>If it's better than Complete Warrior I'd be pretty happy.
I recently read through CA for the first time; I think CW is *more* useful,
IMC at least.
David Alex Lamb
I forget who suggested it, but someone did.
David Alex Lamb
Taneli Pirinen <REMOVETHIStaneli....@REMOVETHIShelsinki.fi.invalid> wrote:
>Both are ancient beyond recockning (well, not really, Tolkien tells
>somewhere when they were born), but on the Third Age of the Light, they
>were ancient beyond any imagination. Elrond was in the battles in the
>end of the second age of light, and he old by then. Galadriel had seen
>the lights in the west, and had born in the first age, if I'm not
>totally mistaken.
IIRC when talking to Frodo she remembers something from the first age, about
6000 years previously, having to do with the battle against Morgoth. That's a
whole book ahead of where I'm reading to Ian, so I haven't seen it recently
enough for certainty.
John Phillips
"Rump Ranger" wrote
Ringwraith Bane sword.
John
Ian R Malcomson
>Ian R Malcomson wrote:
<Snip>
>Yup. Although I'd say Sir Ian did about as good a Gandalf on-screen as
>anyone could.
You won't find any argument from me on that score!
>> **
>> Bilbo: Expert 3 (scribe/scholar)
...
>>End of The Hobbit: Exp3/Rog8. End of
>LotR:
>> Exp12/Rog8.
>
>I disagree with expert beginning with the hobbit. Maybe a 1-2 commoner
>which gains levels in rogue on the way.
My reasoning for Exp is his fascination and study of things elven, and
"scholar" is very difficult to model with Com (not enough skill points
in the right areas...). Then again, in the situations that arise in
Hob. don't make him out to have any special knowledge, and Rog levels
can certainly accommodate the "scholar" concept (cross-class though the
relevant Knowledge skills may be) he falls into between Hob. and LotR.
So, I'm not against your Com model (but am, obviously, more for my Exp
model).
>> Frodo: Expert 2 (scribe/scholar)/Rogue 1
...
>>End of LotR: Rog12. Other Notes: Expert skills as Bilbo.
>> **
>
>I'd go for the expert and maybe a little rogue for Frodo starting.
>Doesn't seem to gain that many levels over the book though.
Perhaps... I was going by more what he experienced, rather than what
you actually see him do. But then, what he mostly experiences is hiding
and being rescued by Sam.
>> Sam: Expert 4 (gardener)
...
>>Exp4/Rog3/Rgr6
>> **
>
>I simply disagree with this power level. Maybe exp 1-2 for gardener
>with a little rogue put in during the time with the fellowship before
>Rauros. I'd say he rather became a fighter with handle animal in the
>later books. I don't think he needed two-weapon fighting too much
>because he never really used the phial as a weapon (at least to stike
>Shelob). He held it to shine light in her eyes.
Okay, I'm with you on this one.
>> Merry: Aristocrat 3 as Master of Buckland.
...
>>End
>of
>> LotR: Ari3/Rog3/Ftr5.
>> **
>
>Was he master of Buckland before Fellowship?
No... My bad. Odd no-one picked that up before (including myself!).
>IIRC, he and Pippen were
>the youngsters and still haven't "come of age" by the time they left
>the Shire. Seems odd a young Merry would run that part of the Shire.
>After the Scouring I'd agree.
As heir to Buckland, then, perhaps Ari1 at the start (making him
Ari1/Rog3/Ftr5 at end). Then gaining further Ari levels as Master in
the FO.
>> Pippin: Rogue 2.
...
>>End of LotR: Rog6/Ftr4.
>> **
>
>I'd say the levels are too far advanced. Maybe Rog3/Ftr3 but not tenth
>level. He did kill a troll but he didn't wade into battle and kill a
>couple score like Gimli, Aragorn, or Legolas.
The argument here is that he did get involved. Okay, so maybe my level
assignment for him is a bit optimistic...
>> Aragorn: Ranger 10.
...
>>End of
>LotR:
>> Rgr14/Ftr5. Two-weapon fighting combat style.
>> **
>
>Not much argument expect that I'd put Aragorn as archery style. He
>never wielded two weapons (didn't need to with the Arundil).
The argument here is that Aragorn comes across mostly as a melee-type
combatant moreso than a ranged-type one. More unobserved bow-slinging
than observed TWF - and that combat style has to go somewhere.
>> Gimli: Fighter 7.
...
>>End of LotR: Ftr16.
>> **
>
>I'd say he started higher. He fought against Uruk-hai in Fellowship
>but not many and he had Legolas to back him up. His first real battle
>was Helm's Deep and he killed like 46 orcs.
Amazing what you can do when those crits just keep showing up ;)
Actually, that's not too far off. If you assume Great Cleave, and use
"typical" orcs (War1), in the press that Helm's Deep became, 46 orcs
could be done (given luck of the dice) in about 6 rounds. Obviously
unlikely, but possible.
In any case, the start levels for many of these assumptions are based on
"perceived prior activities", and I just don't think Gimli did enough
pre-LotR to make him higher. The same goes for Legolas, despite his age
(see below).
>> Legolas: Ranger 7.
...
>>End of LotR: Rgr16. Archery combat style.
>> **
>Disagree as a ranger. He couldn't track and didn't seem to have
>healing powers like Aragorn did. He could be a varient which didn't
>cast spells but that would take away all the feats I'd imagine he'd
>have and (the obvious) weapon specialization. I'd compromise and say
>maybe Rgr5/Ftr15. He was a few thousand years old.
Maybe I'm overfond of rangers. I'll grant Ftr seems to fit better.
The age argument is somewhat moot. Age doesn't necessarily mean higher
level - you don't gain levels automatically per decade or somesuch. So,
it boils down to that perceived activity thing. It's indicated that
he's got a few millennia behind him, but his name isn't found that much
in ME history. So I've taken this as an indicator that he hasn't *done*
all that much (in an extraordinary, level-increasing way in any case).
Running through Mirkwood hunting bunnies won't make you past 3rd, pretty
much. Throw in a few orc forays, maybe the odd special deed for his
dad...
While we're here on age, and to explain a little why most of the
characters have relatively big level-leaps over the course of LotR (9 in
my model, for Legolas, e.g.). It's something I call "concentrated
experience". Take the average bunch of PCs. They might:
* Wander down a dungeon
* Return to city, spend cash, R&R, buy stuff
* Wander down a dungeon...
..etc..
Most won't earn XP during the "city" periods (in fact, if they're of a
mind to make magic items etc., they'll actually be spending XP instead).
If a dungeon expedition is a week, and R&R (to allow for making stuff
etc.) is a month, that's the equivalent of 10 dungeons per year or so.
Now, assuming sewage gets into the air conditioning, armies go to war,
big weirdo flaming eye thing lights up... the model might be more "go
here, go here, go here, go here..........R&R? What's that?". Unless
there's a lull, PCs that are in the thick of it might experience 50
dungeon equivalents.
Anyway, I digress. With Legolas, my assumption is that he has undergone
a 1 dungeon equivalent per century or more.
>> Théoden: Ranger 4/Fighter 8
...
>>At death: Rgr4/Ftr11.
>> **
>
>How would Theoden be a ranger? I don't get it. He'd be a fighter with
>maxed out stats in riding, mounted fighting feats, and leadership.
That's wrapped up in my note on the Rohirrim as rangers, below.
>> Eomer: Ranger 7. Continues to gain levels as a Ranger. CG. End of
>> LotR: Rgr12.
>> **
>
>Again, I don't see how Eomer is a ranger. He knows the land but not to
>the level like a true Dunedain ranger did.
That's more a question of where each put their skill points than class
choice. The Rohirrim ranger might throw them more into Ride, Survival,
Handle Animal, etc., while the Dunedain might bandy some into Knowledge
skills. Also, don't confuse the LotR definition of Ranger (as in
Aragorn and his pals), and the D&D class.
The Rohirrim were good trackers, had a good knowledge of their lands,
and had a connection with their horses - that's what makes them rangers,
IMO.
>Furthermore, he was a
>master at mounted combat. Fighter fits him better for the feats. I
>don't see him as CG but rather LG.
Wild empathy can make you a master at mounted combat, especially if your
mount is also your animal companion. Yes, Mounted Combat and related
feats are neat (and the Rohirrim would certainly have them), having your
mount clued up can make as much a difference as your ability to ride it.
On alignment... well, it's always difficult to assign alignments to
literary or real-life personalities that haven't been lifted from D&D
source, so that's a moot point we could argue ourselves in circles over
- so I'll leave that bottle of worms debate well alone.
>> Eowyn: Ranger 5. Continues to gain levels as a Ranger. CG. End of
>> LotR: Rgr10.
>> **
>
>I fail to see ranger in her either. Fighter all the way with maybe
>some prestige class called shieldmaiden.
Oooh, if you bring prestige classes into the mix, virtually all of them
would follow some LotR setting-specific PrC or other. Dunedain Ranger,
Rohirrim Rider, Elven Acrobat-Archer, Hobbit Gardener... Well, maybe
not Hobbit Gardener... I was avoiding the PrC issue to keep things
simple and core, but yes, I agree, most LotR characters would benefit
from PrCs in terms of more accurately modelling them.
>> Denethor II: Aristocrat 8. Gains no levels during the LotR. LN..
>> **
>
>Wasn't Denethor a mighty warrior in his youth? He also had the power
>to sort of read men's minds and gaze in a palantir without being
>dominated by Sauron (granted Sauron showed him bad things but he showed
>the ability to use it for his own as well).
Yes, but bear in mind that, apart from BAB, Ari trumps War in a number
of ways (okay, but not Ftr). The model here is how Denethor comes over
at the time of LotR to me. Perhaps Ari/Ftr might be better to model him
accounting for his whole history. Using the palantir might be a
function of a good Will save (from Ari) and ranks in Use Magic Device.
>> Why Rohirrim have Ranger levels: Rohirrim are largely nomadic
>(Survival
>> skill), and are attached to their horses (wild empathy). This makes
>> them "natural" rangers.
>> **
>
>It's possible some had a couple ranger levels here and there but I'm
>inclined to believe they were more or less fighters with a lot of
>training on mounted combat and riding. One could also make a PrC
>entitled Rohirrim with those skills and a feat progression including a
>lot of mounted combat.
Granted, but in lieu of such a prestige class, IMO ranger suits them.
>> Tom Bombadil (another possible Maia) could possibly be DvR 1-2. Why
>ot
>> DvR 0? Because you could state that the Ring cannot affect beings of
>> DvR 1 or higher - the Ring had no effect on Bombadil, but Gandalf was
>> certainly concerned that it might affect himself. Why not higher?
>> Because, let's face it, he just doesn't come across as being divine
>> enough.
>> **
>Tom Bambadil is an enigma. Tolkien left him that way on purpose.
Yes, Bombadil is an odd one by design. When FotR came out, omitting
Bombadil, I did feel a moment of pain. But then I figured, the guy just
comes across as a relapse into an acid trip part-way through the book
that serves pretty much as a side-trek to rescue the hobbits from the
barrow-wights. Then again, the barrow-wight scene in the book is one of
my favourites - cutting Bombadil logically meant cutting that, too, for
which I mourn.
Ophidian
>
> Frodo is problematic. I don't know what to do with him either. He has to
> have enough levels to be able to resist the Ring for a long while, but not so
> many that he can't eventually fail.
Hm, high Wisdom, Iron Will, halfling save bonus, good Will save.
And stat the ring as becoming harder to resist the longer you have
or use it and the closer you come to Sauron or Mount Doom.
Frodo gained levels on the trip but not as fast at the ring
gained bonuses to its DC against Frodo.
Ophidian
>
>>What about Eowen?
>
> Forgot about her. She's a fighter but she's pretty special being able
> to smite the Witch King.
From his wording, anyone can hit him or hurt him, but "No man"
can kill him. She only had to be "not a man". Same can be argued
for Merry. The Witch King had a limitation. His slayer had
no particular advantage other than a second X chromone.
> Although Merry's barrow-blade had something
> to do with it.
Magic blade attuned to undead.
> Another toughy: Tom Bambadil.
Vermin with delusions of Bard-hood.
> The Ring had no effect on him and he
> wasn't bothered by barrow-wights
Gak. At that point I'm thinking Paladin. <g>
> but would he be able to take Sauron on
> in a one on one fight (if it ever came to that)?
<obscure reference>
Well there's this legend about December 25th...
<end obscure reference>
vince garcia
>
> Has anyone here bothered to put out some well thought out stats as to
> major characters of Middle-Earth? As a purely mental experiment of
> course. What would you say would be the stats of, say Sauron or the
> Ringwraiths?
>
> levels of bard added (I know he's a wizard but Tolkien wasn't using D&D
> classes when he wrote about Gandalf. He fits bard pretty well: he can
> heal, cast evocations, can inspire people, and is a loremaster). Then
> inspire the peoples of ME to fight for themselves. Outsider HD would be
> used to give him the high BAB he has (they fight as well as fighters
> and Gandalf fought as well as anyone). How many HD he has is beyond me
> (I'd say epic levels).
>
> along the lines of a fighter 4 (for weapon specialization) and like
> 12-16 levels of ranger. Throw in the leadership feat and include a
> sub-race for humans (Numenoreans) and I'd say you can model him well.
>
> near 20. He seems pretty epic from the books.
>
> Legolas- he's tough because Tolkien elves aren't D&D elves but he'd no
> doubt be a fighter (not an arcane archer) with maxed out archery skills
> and around 20th level or so (he's nearly equal to Aragorn and Gimli).
>
> Bilbo Baggins- a couple levels of commoner (because at the beginning of
> adventures with the dwarves) and then expert with lots of ranks in
> poetry and knowledge (I won't classify him as a bard because he doesn't
> cast spells). Power level's hard to tell.
>
> Frodo Baggins- starts off with expert levels (he's a cut above normal
> hobbits because he lived with Bilbo and learned a lot from him). Only
> problem is what he becomes when he goes on his journey. He doesn't
> seem to fit rogue nor does he seem to fit fighter. Maybe more expert
> levels?
>
> few levels of fighter. He's capable of holding his own against Shelob
> which has to count for something.
>
> Merry and Pippen- both start as commoners and easily become fighters as
> Merry becomes a Rider of the Rohirrim and Pippen becomes a knight of
> Gondor.
>
> voice and enchanter levels. An outsider all the way.
>
> Rhadagast, although little talked about, is also an Istari. Sounds
> like he has druid levels (Gandalf said he was well versed in herbs,
> shapes, and in making friends with beasts).
>
>
> knowledge of the woods of Ithilien), fighter (his great skill), or a
> paladin (because he was so good and people saw it despite the movies
> making him out to be a prick).
>
> case). What about Elrond or Galadriel?
>
I say Gandalf was a 5th level magic user
ari...@cox.net
>
<snip Tom Bombadil and the Council of Elrond>
>
> Didn't one of them (Glorfindel IIRC) suggest
> they give the Ring to Bambadil to hold?
It was Erestor, Elrond's chief counsellor. He said "Would he not take
the Ring and keep it there, for ever harmless?" (FotR pp. 315, 348)
.
.
Arivne
Hong Ooi
"This ring was on Isildur's finger when he was slain in battle at the
Gladden Fields. Your daddy was captured and taken to Dol Guldur. Now he
knew if the ringwraiths ever saw the ring, he'd be a grease spot. So he hid
it in the one place he knew he could hide something. His ass. Five long
centuries, he wore this ring up his ass. Then when he died of dysentery, he
gave the ring to me. I hid this uncomfortable hunk of metal up my ass for
two centuries. Then, after nine centuries of Man, I escaped. And now,
little man, I give the ring to you."
--
Hong Ooi | "COUNTERSRTIKE IS AN REAL-TIME
ho...@zipworld.com.au | STRATEGY GAME!!!"
http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/ | -- RR
Sydney, Australia |
Kevin Lowe
Auspex <ne...@pointerstop.ca> wrote:
> Rump Ranger wrote:
> >> > Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level fighters
>
> Boromir has to be at least a level higher than Faramir, as a fighter.
Actually, Faramir said he was as good as Boromir if not better. Plus he
slugged it out with the Witch-King of Angmar and lived to brag about it.
I still say the hobbits should all have rogue levels rather than NPC
rubbish, since they were all mushroom-thieving tearaways and crack
rock-throwers in their youth.
Plus I say that Aragorn gets too little credit. He had to be actively
stopped from taking a crack at the Balrog, and he never showed any signs
of stupidity or ignorance. I think he knew he and Gandalf stood a good
chance of taking it, and if he hadn't been responsible for shepherding
Frodo onward he would have taken his shot. As I believe I have said
earlier, if he wasn't the equal of the great Balrog-whuppin' human
heroes of the First Age he certainly thought he was.
Kevin Lowe,
Tasmania.
Hong Ooi
>
>I still say the hobbits should all have rogue levels rather than NPC
>rubbish, since they were all mushroom-thieving tearaways and crack
>rock-throwers in their youth.
What kind of idiot throws crack rocks?
I bet they inject their weed too, or something.
Peter Knutsen
On a general note, keep in mind that Middle-Earth was not a
"balanced" world. Even something as relatively basic as a
pure-blooded Dunedain (Aragorn), should probably be LA +2
and given loads of "racial" abilities. Same goes for Imrahil
(although he was a slightly different "race"). Faramir was
easily LA +1, and Denethor and Boromir too.
Heck, it might be worth it to create a special "Royal Blood
Dunedain" "race" for Aragorn, which is superior to that of
"ordinary" Dunedain, and make that LA +3 or even LA +4.
IIRC, players didn't get to pick their species in MERP, they
had to roll for it, a *moronic* kludge to avoid all the
players deciding to play Noldo Elves (or Dunedain).
Rump Ranger wrote:
> Well, in the books Tolkien doesn't get too much into specifics on
> Legolas in combat other than to say he was one hell of a shot with his
> bow. The movies had him doing some real acrobatic things and I
> wouldn't be suprised if he was acrobatic in the book version. He also
> would have some ranks in perform (song) because he was a great singer.
More like a "racial" bonus to the Perform (Song) skill,
because all the Elves of that type (Sindar, IIRC, although
possibly Sylvan) were like that.
[...]
> David Alex Lamb wrote:
>>I think you could go with rogue from the beginning, since Bilbo was
> taken on
>>as a 'burglar'.
>
> Disagree. Bilbo starts as a commoner. No real world skills (outside
> of maybe cooking and smoking) and he was literally pushed out his door
Again, Hobbits have a huge "racial" bonus to Move Silently.
Easily +4, maybe even +6. On top of that, they're +2 to DEX.
And doesn't D&D3 also give a bonus to Move Silently, based
on size? Or is that bonus only to Hide?
That's the skill Bilbo was hired for (apart from the fact
that he was pretty much the only Hobbit with potential for
greatness - Gandalf didn't pick him at random): Stealth.
None of that working with locks or traps crap...
[...]
>>One question that occurs to me: does MERP give statistics for the
> major
>>characters and, if so, how close did they come to what you've
> suggested?
MERP would probably be a shitty ressource for characters. I
got the core rule book from the library, last year, and as I
expected, the magic system was much more like D&D than it
was like Tolkien, so I can't imagine how they could have
even *tried* to get the abilities of the characters *correct*.
Only the evil NPCs are statted up in Decipher's core LOTR
rule book (and even then, the eight ordinary ringwraiths
have identical stats, although it is pointed out that it's a
simplification), but a book was planned with stats of all
the good guys too. I just don't know whether Decipher
managed to get it finished and out, before they closed their
LOTR department.
> I never checked out MERP, mainly because I never liked the publisher's
> rule intensive books and thousands of charts. I had a bad experience
> looking at Rolemaster products. Too much detail.
There is no such thing as too much detail. Rather, too
little detail shifts the power balance in the wrong direction.
--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
Peter Knutsen
Peter Mork wrote:
> In the old (ICE) LOTR role-playing game, Sauron was level 2N when he made
> the ring. He invested N of his levels into the ring, leaving him at level
> N. However, the ring granted Sauron +2N levels. Thus:
> Pre-ring-crafting: 2N
> Post-ring-crafting with ring: 3N
> Without ring: N
Yes, that's basically the way the ring worked.
Another way to think about it would be to think in terms of
spell slots. You permanently sacrifice 3 6th level spell
slots, 3 7th level spell slots and 2 8th level spell slots,
but for this you get a ring which gives you 6 6th level
spell slots, 6 7th level spell slots and 4 8th level spell
slots.
(Although one would have to create mechanics for how others
could put the ring to use - for instance if you sacrificed
Arcane spell slots, could a Divine caster benefit from your
ring if he stole it from you?)
> (Where N is some suitably ridiculous number. IIRC they chose N=40, in a
> system in which characters pretty much maxed out at level 10.)
Wasn't it more the case that MERP spell lists stopped at
10th level, so if characters advanced further, you'd have to
buy the Rolemaster books?
--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
Peter Knutsen
Lorenz Lang wrote:
> In the books Gandalf is much more 'active' than in the movies.
> It starts in 'The Hobbit' with tricking the trolls and casting fireballs
> at the attacking worgs and orcs IIRC. Classic wizard/sorcerer stuff.
Elrond made the flood, possibly (although I don't think so)
with help from the other Elves. Gandalf just added to the
power of the flood (and it's possible that the only thing he
added was some pretty horses, with no "game-mechanical" effect)
> the Wraiths. The hobbits and Aragorn see his flashy firemagic from the far
> and found a whole hilltop scorched and blackened (IIRC again).
>
> In Moria he magically sealed a portal, but the Balrog broke the spell
> weakening Gandalf.
--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
Peter Knutsen
Rump Ranger wrote:
> That's what I thought except that they're more like shadows with a wail
> of the banshee type of effect which stuns and puts fear into men rather
> than kills them. I'd also say they had a pretty powerful fear aura
> (people didn't need to see them to feel their presence).
In Decipher's LOTR RPG, the fear aura grows stronger the
more ringwraiths there are (the Witch-King probably ought to
count as three ringwraiths, although I can't recall if the
RPG included this).
In D&D3 terms, the DC could start out at 20, and then go up
by +2 for each additional ringwraith, except the Witch-King
adds +6 instead of +2 (if the Witch-King is alone, his DC
would be 24).
Or would a higher DC be more suitable? Base 25, and +3 per
Nazgul, or +9 for witchie?
[...]
[Faramir]
> Hard to tell but he could best any Rider of the Rohirrim in combat (at
> least that's what Eowyn thinks when she sizes him up). The only two
> people of Rohan I think who could take Faramir (or give him a run for
> his money) would be Eomer or Theoden.
I don't think either of those could beat Faramir. Possibly
not even both *together*. Faramir is, or so I seem to recall
having read (in one of the Letters?), almost pure Numenorean
blood. Which is pretty damn competent, overall. And, of
course, on top of bloody good genes he's had several decades
of intensive training (Aragorn was like 90 in the books -
Faramir could easily have been 50, which is not much older
than Theoden, but nevertheless young and spry for a Dunedain).
Of course, put Eomer on a horse, and Aragorn on foot, and I
wouldn't bet (much) on the outcome. As for Theoden, I think
he's too old. But he'd make it easier for Eomer if he helped.
[...]
>>Elrond: Fighter/Wizard
>>Galadriel: Sorcerer or Wizard
>>I see both at epic levels. Closely above Aragorn but below Gandalf.
>>
>
>
> Below Gandalf, but I'd think at least Elrond would wipe the floor with
> Aragorn. Seriously. Galadriel doesn't strike me as the combat type.
Well, Elrond and Aragorn are relatives. Aragorns distant
forefather, Elros, was Aragorns brother. Elrond is also very
much a scholar, whereas Aragorn isn't too badly modelled by
a D&D Ranger (although he'd benefit from some kind of
Prestige Class, or at least a Feat, that gives bonuses to
his troops in mass battles).
But Elrond has age going for him. He's several thousand
years old (He'd have been born close to the end of the First
Age. The second age lasted for, IIRC, around 2500 years, and
LOTR takes place a bit more than 3000 years into the Third
Age), and as a Half-Elf who has chosen the Elven side
(whereas Elros chose the Human side), he hasn't aged at all.
He's as fit as your average 30 year old Human would be.
> I'd say she has some pretty strong charm spells at her disposal.
> Elrond sounds like he has at least some druidic powers (able to control
> the river which guards his land). Also remember that both had one of
More general, are there any D&D supplements (official or
otherwise?) with rules for this kind of "power of the land"
concept?
Or for that matter, other RPG systems which does this?
(Decipher's LOTR core book has only very little). It
interests me.
> the Three Great Rings which have to be major artifacts.
Yes, definitely.
--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
Peter Knutsen
Taneli Pirinen wrote:
[Elrond & Galadriel]
> Both are ancient beyond recockning (well, not really, Tolkien tells
Elrond wasn't ancient. He was only around 5500 years old!
> somewhere when they were born), but on the Third Age of the Light, they
> were ancient beyond any imagination. Elrond was in the battles in the
> end of the second age of light, and he old by then. Galadriel had seen
> the lights in the west, and had born in the first age, if I'm not
> totally mistaken.
Older, I think. There are two series of ages. The current
series of Ages is the Ages of the Sun, where LOTR takes
place in the Third Age of the Sun, and the whole Numenor
thing takes place in the Second Age of the Sun.
But before the Ages of the Sun there were Ages of the Stars,
and IIRC Galadriel was born back then. So she's easily twice
as old as Elrond. My random guess is that she's something
like 15'000 years old, maybe 20'000.
One should be mindful, though. That Elrond has Maia blood in
his veins (Aragorn has too, and Denethor, Faramir, and
Boromir - not 100% sure about Imrahil). Galadriel hasn't.
That Maia blood (which is not even particularly dilluted in
Elrond - Melian was only something like half a dozen
generations ago) could balance out Galadriel having "seen
the Light(tm)".
> But one must also remember, that the spirits that came to middle-earth
> as the five wizards were also ancient beyond recockning. They just were
> not allowed to use much of their strength, as it would have destroyed
> the lands that Eru and the valar so love...
--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
Peter Knutsen
David Alex Lamb wrote:
> IIRC when talking to Frodo she remembers something from the first age, about
> 6000 years previously, having to do with the battle against Morgoth. That's a
> whole book ahead of where I'm reading to Ian, so I haven't seen it recently
> enough for certainty.
That was Elrond, telling about the battle fought by The Last
Alliance (of Men and Elves) against Sauron, which ended with
Saurons "death" when Isildur cut off his ring-finger with
the stump of Narsil. Elrond relays this tale at the Council,
and Frodo then expresses astonishment that Elrond was
actually there, since it was so long ago (which was a bit
clumsy of Tolkien, since Frodo already *knew* that Elves
were immortal, but then again LOTR is the first fantasy
novel ever, according to most definitions, so Tolkien needed
to invent a lot of techniques, making it no wonder that he
didn't get everything right).
--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
Mark Blunden
> On 8 Jan 2005 04:10:45 -0800, ari...@cox.net wrote:
>
>> Rump Ranger wrote:
>>>
>> <snip Tom Bombadil and the Council of Elrond>
>>>
>>> Didn't one of them (Glorfindel IIRC) suggest
>>> they give the Ring to Bambadil to hold?
>>
>> It was Erestor, Elrond's chief counsellor. He said "Would he not
>> take the Ring and keep it there, for ever harmless?" (FotR pp. 315,
>> 348)
>
> "This ring was on Isildur's finger when he was slain in battle at the
> Gladden Fields. Your daddy was captured and taken to Dol Guldur. Now
> he knew if the ringwraiths ever saw the ring, he'd be a grease spot.
> So he hid it in the one place he knew he could hide something. His
> ass. Five long centuries, he wore this ring up his ass. Then when he
> died of dysentery, he gave the ring to me. I hid this uncomfortable
> hunk of metal up my ass for two centuries. Then, after nine centuries
> of Man, I escaped. And now, little man, I give the ring to you."
"Well, at least you already know where you can shove it."
--
Mark.
Rump Ranger
Ah. Kind of like an illusion effect I'd imagine with the sheer power
of the water sweeping the Nazgul away.
> >>The hobbits and Aragorn see his flashy firemagic from the far
> >>and found a whole hilltop scorched and blackened (IIRC again).
> >>
> >
> >
> > Agreed. It's possible it was pyrotechnics which can be emulated by
> > bardic levels. The Nazgul hated light and Gandalf did have one of
the
> > Three Rings of power. The fire one (forgot the name).
>
> Narya.
>
That's it.
> >>In Moria he magically sealed a portal, but the Balrog broke the
spell
> >>weakening Gandalf.
> >>
> >
> > Part of it also goes into Gandalf's staff. I believe it was a
magical
> > item and he did have on of the Three Great Rings.
>
> The staff is something like the ring for the wizards. When Saruman
lost
> his staff, he also lost all his powers (except the sweet tongue).
>
Yup. Which is why I think PJ made a major mistake in ROTK EE by first
showing Saruman's staff being broken and losing power but Gandalf
having his staff broken by the Witch King and still retaining power.
In the book, Gandalf of course never had his staff broken. One can
argue the staff serves as a focus and that Saruman had lost his power
before the staff was broken: remember, he was ordered to turn around by
Gandalf which shocked everyone.
You know what I meant. Some of those names get a little confusing
without breaking the books out (and besides, Tolkien had multiple names
for the same thing due to various languages- Elvish, Dwarven, Common,
Rohan).
> >>>Gimli- another no brainer, fighter who specialized in axes with a
> >
> > level
> >
> >>>near 20. He seems pretty epic from the books.
> >>>
> >>>Legolas- he's tough because Tolkien elves aren't D&D elves but
he'd
> >
> > no
> >
> >>>doubt be a fighter (not an arcane archer) with maxed out archery
> >
> > skills
> >
> >>>and around 20th level or so (he's nearly equal to Aragorn and
> >
> > Gimli).
> >
> >>>Bilbo Baggins- a couple levels of commoner (because at the
> >
> > beginning of
> >
> >>>the Hobbit he doesn't know much),
> >>
> >>Isn't he a kind of landlord? That would be aristocrat.
> >>
> >
> > Disagree. Bilbo in the beginning of the Hobbit had only a few
skills.
> > Mostly cooking and smoking (which was an art to the hobbits) he
sounds
> > exactly like the NPC class of commoner at the beginning.
Aristocrat is
> > possible.
>
> Bilbo was an heir of the family of Baggins, a very well off family in
> the Hobbiton and all of Shire. Aristocrat most likely.
>
The reason why I don't think he needs Aristocrat is that the Shire
never really had a government to speak of. The Mayor was more or less
a symbolic position where he oversaw feasts and parties.
> Also, hobbits are very quiet by their nature, that is their magic. So
a
> level or two of Rouge is not at all out of question (just pick right
> skills and take something else for inappropriate class features).
>
Their quiet nature can be modeled by adding points to dex, taking away
from strength and maybe giving them an extra bonus on hide and move
silently. The average human still wouldn't be able to detect them
mostly. From what I gather, their ability to hide was more a natural
trait of hobbits than learned.
> >>>a few levels of rogue (for his
> >>>adventures with the dwarves) and then expert with lots of ranks in
> >>>poetry and knowledge (I won't classify him as a bard because he
> >
> > doesn't
> >
> >>>cast spells). Power level's hard to tell.
> >>>
> >>>Frodo Baggins- starts off with expert levels (he's a cut above
> >
> > normal
> >
> >>>hobbits because he lived with Bilbo and learned a lot from him).
> >
> > Only
> >
> >>>problem is what he becomes when he goes on his journey. He
doesn't
> >>>seem to fit rogue nor does he seem to fit fighter. Maybe more
> >
> > expert
> >
> >>>levels?
> >>
> >>20th level Ringbearer PrC ;-)
> >>
> >
> >
> > Yeah, but Frodo was kinda weak outside of his ability to go on the
> > journey. He did an epic thing while being an everyday kind of guy.
>
> Frodo was Bilbo's heir, and so he most likely had levels in
Aristocrat
> (and maybe in Rouge... as the hobbits' magic is their quietness, when
> they feel so).
>
I'd go expert because Frodo knew a lot about Bilbo's travels and
probably learned a thing or two on how to survive by hanging out with
him.
> >>>Samwise- starts off as commoner with gardening maxed out and gains
> >
> > a
> >
> >>>few levels of fighter. He's capable of holding his own against
> >
> > Shelob
> >
> >>>which has to count for something.
> >>
> >>>Merry and Pippen- both start as commoners and easily become
> >
> > fighters as
> >
> >>>Merry becomes a Rider of the Rohirrim and Pippen becomes a knight
> >
> > of
> >
> >>>Gondor.
> >>
> >>IIRC Merry is aristocrat too, son of the Brandibuck(?).
>
> Meriadoc Branbybuck and Peregrin Took, both young members of great
> families of the Hobbits.
>
Both of which haven't come of age by the time the first book starts.
They're the youngsters, still in their "tweens" when they leave the
Shire, IIRC.
> >>>Saruman is simliar to Gandalf with a permanent charm effect on his
> >>>voice and enchanter levels. An outsider all the way.
> >>>
> >>>Rhadagast, although little talked about, is also an Istari.
Sounds
> >>>like he has druid levels (Gandalf said he was well versed in
herbs,
> >>>shapes, and in making friends with beasts).
> >>>
> >>>Boromir, Imrahil, Theoden, and Eomer- mid to high level fighters
> >>
> >>Who is Imrahil?
> >>
> >
> > The Prince who leads the men of Gondor when Denethor goes mad and
> > Faramir is in the Houses of the Healing. Aragorn refused to take
his
> > Kingship until after the Ring is destroyed and he plays a pretty
big
> > part in the battles of ROTK (in the books, not the movie).
> >
>
> Movie sucks in many regards.
>
They're pretty good in most parts if one doesn't forget that this is
Peter Jackson's LOTR and not really Tolkien's. Imrahil or Beregrond's
absence can be forgiven (because the movie would be too long) but PJ
makes some rather pointless changes to characters which would have
angered Tolkien had he been alive.
Exactly. Did Galadriel do a lot of fighting during that time?
> But one must also remember, that the spirits that came to
middle-earth
> as the five wizards were also ancient beyond recockning. They just
were
> not allowed to use much of their strength, as it would have destroyed
> the lands that Eru and the valar so love...
>
Which is why Istari fit outsider so well. They're certainly not human
(I believe Galadriel mentions that she summoned the White Council and
wanted Gandalf to lead it but Saruman was chosen).
Mart van de Wege
<snip>
>
> Another toughy: Tom Bambadil. The Ring had no effect on him and he
> wasn't bothered by barrow-wights but would he be able to take Sauron on
> in a one on one fight (if it ever came to that)? It'd be interesting
> to see.
>
Nah.
Bombadil is easy. Gandalf describes him as coming into the world at
its beginning, so he's another Outsider. Given his powers, I'd say
with levels in Ranger and Druid, probably Epic.
Mart
--
"We will need a longer wall when the revolution comes."
--- AJS, quoting an uncertain source.
Rump Ranger
David Alex Lamb wrote:
> In article <1105130187.2...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
> Rump Ranger <buttp...@fadmail.com> wrote:
> >Ah. I don't have that. Anyone think the Complete Arcane is worth
it?
> >If it's better than Complete Warrior I'd be pretty happy.
>
> I recently read through CA for the first time; I think CW is *more*
useful,
> IMC at least.
Is it that your campaign is more a martial one is it that a lot in CA
is just average? I wasn't wowed over by much in CW (finding a few
prestige classes useful here and there) but found other PrCs lacking (I
could use an Eye of Gruumsh but the Elven one which focuses on killing
orcs is way too single-minded to be used).
Kelly Pedersen
[snip]
> Plus I say that Aragorn gets too little credit. He had to be actively
> stopped from taking a crack at the Balrog, and he never showed any signs
> of stupidity or ignorance.
OTOH, Gandalf, presumably the person who knew best what a Balrog was
capable of (they were distant cousins, sorta), said "This is a foe
beyond any of you." I have to say I trust Gandalf over Aragorn, on this one.
> I think he knew he and Gandalf stood a good
> chance of taking it, and if he hadn't been responsible for shepherding
> Frodo onward he would have taken his shot. As I believe I have said
> earlier, if he wasn't the equal of the great Balrog-whuppin' human
> heroes of the First Age he certainly thought he was.
Unfortunately, there's no record (at least, outside the History of
Middle Earth stuff, which I haven't read extensively), of _any_ human
taking out a Balrog. Even Hurin, refered to as "the greatest warrior of
mortal men", doesn't seem to have taken out any Balrogs. The only Balrog
slayings I can remember are Gandalf's, and Ecthelion and Glorfindel, as
part of the sacking of Gondolin, during the First Age. Admittedly,
Ecthelion _did_ kill Gothmog, the Lord of Balrogs, but he still died
himself. In fact, _all_ specific recorded Balrog slayings seem to have
been mutual kills. Even Gandalf, who just came back.
Rump Ranger
Ian R Malcomson wrote:
> Rump Ranger <buttp...@fadmail.com> writes
> >Ian R Malcomson wrote:
>
> <Snip>
>
> >Yup. Although I'd say Sir Ian did about as good a Gandalf on-screen
as
> >anyone could.
>
> You won't find any argument from me on that score!
>
I'd say most of the actors did a good job with what they were given.
> >> **
> >> Bilbo: Expert 3 (scribe/scholar)
> ...
> >>End of The Hobbit: Exp3/Rog8. End of
> >LotR:
> >> Exp12/Rog8.
> >
> >I disagree with expert beginning with the hobbit. Maybe a 1-2
commoner
> >which gains levels in rogue on the way.
>
> My reasoning for Exp is his fascination and study of things elven,
and
> "scholar" is very difficult to model with Com (not enough skill
points
> in the right areas...). Then again, in the situations that arise in
> Hob. don't make him out to have any special knowledge, and Rog levels
> can certainly accommodate the "scholar" concept (cross-class though
the
> relevant Knowledge skills may be) he falls into between Hob. and
LotR.
> So, I'm not against your Com model (but am, obviously, more for my
Exp
> model).
>
Expert could work because Bilbo was kind of a scholar as far as hobbits
were concerned. It's possible but most of his knowledge was based on
poetry and songs.
> >> Frodo: Expert 2 (scribe/scholar)/Rogue 1
> ...
> >>End of LotR: Rog12. Other Notes: Expert skills as Bilbo.
> >> **
> >
> >I'd go for the expert and maybe a little rogue for Frodo starting.
> >Doesn't seem to gain that many levels over the book though.
>
> Perhaps... I was going by more what he experienced, rather than what
> you actually see him do. But then, what he mostly experiences is
hiding
> and being rescued by Sam.
>
Yeah, but even in a D&D context one can argue he doesn't gain many
levels over the course of his journey. The more I think about it, the
less likely I think Frodo had high will saves. Consider that it took
multiple years for the Ring to corrupt Gollum and he started out evil
(by killing Deagle and terrorizing people in his village). Bilbo was
barely corrupted by it and he had it for over 40 years. IMO, the Ring
is more or less a slow corrupter which only asserts itself when it's
time to give the thing up, which only Bilbo and Sam are capable of
doing. Faramir also resisted the lure of the Ring and was never
tempted (despite how Peter Jackson portrayed him). I think a
character's goodness is more important than their will saves.
> >> Sam: Expert 4 (gardener)
> ...
> >>Exp4/Rog3/Rgr6
> >> **
> >
> >I simply disagree with this power level. Maybe exp 1-2 for gardener
> >with a little rogue put in during the time with the fellowship
before
> >Rauros. I'd say he rather became a fighter with handle animal in
the
> >later books. I don't think he needed two-weapon fighting too much
> >because he never really used the phial as a weapon (at least to
stike
> >Shelob). He held it to shine light in her eyes.
>
> Okay, I'm with you on this one.
>
> >> Merry: Aristocrat 3 as Master of Buckland.
> ...
> >>End
> >of
> >> LotR: Ari3/Rog3/Ftr5.
> >> **
> >
> >Was he master of Buckland before Fellowship?
>
> No... My bad. Odd no-one picked that up before (including myself!).
>
No problem. The books are like 600000 words.
> >IIRC, he and Pippen were
> >the youngsters and still haven't "come of age" by the time they left
> >the Shire. Seems odd a young Merry would run that part of the
Shire.
> >After the Scouring I'd agree.
>
> As heir to Buckland, then, perhaps Ari1 at the start (making him
> Ari1/Rog3/Ftr5 at end). Then gaining further Ari levels as Master in
> the FO.
>
After ROTK, I can see Merry leading Buckland because he commanded the
hobbits when they took down "sharkey's" men during the Scouring of the
Shire. I think the hobbits were quite impressed in how Pippen and
Merry grew up on their journey (physically as well because of the
ent-draughts).
> >> Pippin: Rogue 2.
> ...
> >>End of LotR: Rog6/Ftr4.
> >> **
> >
> >I'd say the levels are too far advanced. Maybe Rog3/Ftr3 but not
tenth
> >level. He did kill a troll but he didn't wade into battle and kill
a
> >couple score like Gimli, Aragorn, or Legolas.
>
> The argument here is that he did get involved. Okay, so maybe my
level
> assignment for him is a bit optimistic...
>
I would never deny he didn't get involved. It's just that Tolkien's
orcs and most of their allies were mooks. At best 1rst level
characters.
> >> Aragorn: Ranger 10.
> ...
> >>End of
> >LotR:
> >> Rgr14/Ftr5. Two-weapon fighting combat style.
> >> **
> >
> >Not much argument expect that I'd put Aragorn as archery style. He
> >never wielded two weapons (didn't need to with the Arundil).
>
> The argument here is that Aragorn comes across mostly as a melee-type
> combatant moreso than a ranged-type one. More unobserved
bow-slinging
> than observed TWF - and that combat style has to go somewhere.
>
Uh, I believe he did use a bow during the fight in Moria to slay some
orcs (I know Boromir and Legolas did). There's no TWP to be seen from
what I remember (unless you count him possibly using shields as both a
weapon and armor).
> >> Gimli: Fighter 7.
> ...
> >>End of LotR: Ftr16.
> >> **
> >
> >I'd say he started higher. He fought against Uruk-hai in Fellowship
> >but not many and he had Legolas to back him up. His first real
battle
> >was Helm's Deep and he killed like 46 orcs.
>
> Amazing what you can do when those crits just keep showing up ;)
>
Heh.
> Actually, that's not too far off. If you assume Great Cleave, and
use
> "typical" orcs (War1), in the press that Helm's Deep became, 46 orcs
> could be done (given luck of the dice) in about 6 rounds. Obviously
> unlikely, but possible.
>
Even moreso because Saruman's Uruk-hai were a cut above the typical
orc. They had to have at least a level of fighter more in comparison
(maybe even 2-3). Remember, Saruman's Uruks fought orcs under Sauron
and dominated them despite being outnumbered.
> In any case, the start levels for many of these assumptions are based
on
> "perceived prior activities", and I just don't think Gimli did enough
> pre-LotR to make him higher. The same goes for Legolas, despite his
age
> (see below).
>
We wouldn't know because we discovered ME through the hobbit's eyes.
We do know that Gloin went with Bilbo and that the Dwarves fought many
battles. They were a reclusive folk and men in the south
(Gondor/Rohan) would never have heard of him.
I never said he did gain a lot of levels over the years. He certainly
was one of the more accomplished Elves of Mirkwood (Elves seemed to
spend a lot of time just frolicking when they could). But if he was
involved in the clash at the end of the Second Age, he had to be pretty
tough. And Mirkwood was overrun with nasty monsters because Sauron's
stronghold was there during the Hobbit. He was at least Aragorn's
equal before the books (and Aragorn no spring chicken).
> While we're here on age, and to explain a little why most of the
> characters have relatively big level-leaps over the course of LotR (9
in
> my model, for Legolas, e.g.). It's something I call "concentrated
> experience". Take the average bunch of PCs. They might:
>
> * Wander down a dungeon
> * Return to city, spend cash, R&R, buy stuff
> * Wander down a dungeon...
> ..etc..
>
> Most won't earn XP during the "city" periods (in fact, if they're of
a
> mind to make magic items etc., they'll actually be spending XP
instead).
> If a dungeon expedition is a week, and R&R (to allow for making stuff
> etc.) is a month, that's the equivalent of 10 dungeons per year or
so.
>
That's your average D&D campaign. I do give EXP to PCs even during
downtime if they use it well (such as learning or training) and during
heavy RP sessions.
> Now, assuming sewage gets into the air conditioning, armies go to
war,
> big weirdo flaming eye thing lights up... the model might be more
"go
> here, go here, go here, go here..........R&R? What's that?". Unless
> there's a lull, PCs that are in the thick of it might experience 50
> dungeon equivalents.
>
> Anyway, I digress. With Legolas, my assumption is that he has
undergone
> a 1 dungeon equivalent per century or more.
>
Until Mirkwood was overrun by the "Necromancer" (Sauron), I'd concur he
didn't do too much for many centuries. After Sauron built a fortress
there things got pretty dangerous quick.
> >> Théoden: Ranger 4/Fighter 8
> ...
> >>At death: Rgr4/Ftr11.
> >> **
> >
> >How would Theoden be a ranger? I don't get it. He'd be a fighter
with
> >maxed out stats in riding, mounted fighting feats, and leadership.
>
> That's wrapped up in my note on the Rohirrim as rangers, below.
>
>
> >> Eomer: Ranger 7. Continues to gain levels as a Ranger. CG. End
of
> >> LotR: Rgr12.
> >> **
> >
> >Again, I don't see how Eomer is a ranger. He knows the land but not
to
> >the level like a true Dunedain ranger did.
>
> That's more a question of where each put their skill points than
class
> choice. The Rohirrim ranger might throw them more into Ride,
Survival,
> Handle Animal, etc., while the Dunedain might bandy some into
Knowledge
> skills. Also, don't confuse the LotR definition of Ranger (as in
> Aragorn and his pals), and the D&D class.
>
True enough but Aragorn had magical healing powers whereas the Rohirrim
didn't. At best, the Rohirrim would be rangers of the non-spellcasting
varient but even then I'd say they don't have enough feats to max out
mounted combat (I doubt they were all 15 level but most could fire from
a horse and were unparreled in combat with a horse).
> The Rohirrim were good trackers, had a good knowledge of their lands,
> and had a connection with their horses - that's what makes them
rangers,
> IMO.
>
> >Furthermore, he was a
> >master at mounted combat. Fighter fits him better for the feats. I
> >don't see him as CG but rather LG.
>
> Wild empathy can make you a master at mounted combat, especially if
your
> mount is also your animal companion. Yes, Mounted Combat and related
> feats are neat (and the Rohirrim would certainly have them), having
your
> mount clued up can make as much a difference as your ability to ride
it.
>
It's possible. Maybe taking away all magical powers and instead
subbing in a few mounted combat feats would make them work.
> On alignment... well, it's always difficult to assign alignments to
> literary or real-life personalities that haven't been lifted from D&D
> source, so that's a moot point we could argue ourselves in circles
over
> - so I'll leave that bottle of worms debate well alone.
>
Eomer still was a man of law. He went to prison on orders of Grima
instead of fleeing and one gets the idea he'd accept any sentence
handed down when he handed Theoden his sword in the beginning of TTT.
> >> Eowyn: Ranger 5. Continues to gain levels as a Ranger. CG. End
of
> >> LotR: Rgr10.
> >> **
> >
> >I fail to see ranger in her either. Fighter all the way with maybe
> >some prestige class called shieldmaiden.
>
> Oooh, if you bring prestige classes into the mix, virtually all of
them
> would follow some LotR setting-specific PrC or other. Dunedain
Ranger,
> Rohirrim Rider, Elven Acrobat-Archer, Hobbit Gardener... Well, maybe
> not Hobbit Gardener... I was avoiding the PrC issue to keep things
> simple and core, but yes, I agree, most LotR characters would benefit
> from PrCs in terms of more accurately modelling them.
>
Try as I might, it's real hard to fit LOTR characters into D&D classes.
Aragorn fits D&D ranger pretty well. The Rohirrim are hard to pick
because you're right that they are wilderness warriors.
> >> Denethor II: Aristocrat 8. Gains no levels during the LotR. LN..
> >> **
> >
> >Wasn't Denethor a mighty warrior in his youth? He also had the
power
> >to sort of read men's minds and gaze in a palantir without being
> >dominated by Sauron (granted Sauron showed him bad things but he
showed
> >the ability to use it for his own as well).
>
> Yes, but bear in mind that, apart from BAB, Ari trumps War in a
number
> of ways (okay, but not Ftr). The model here is how Denethor comes
over
> at the time of LotR to me. Perhaps Ari/Ftr might be better to model
him
> accounting for his whole history. Using the palantir might be a
> function of a good Will save (from Ari) and ranks in Use Magic
Device.
>
>From what I remember, Denethor was a Numenorean of the same stock that
Aragorn came from. The Numenoreans had special abilities above that of
normal men. They were "High" Men as opposed to the "Middle" Men which
inhabited most of Gondor and Rohan.
> >> Why Rohirrim have Ranger levels: Rohirrim are largely nomadic
> >(Survival
> >> skill), and are attached to their horses (wild empathy). This
makes
> >> them "natural" rangers.
> >> **
> >
> >It's possible some had a couple ranger levels here and there but I'm
> >inclined to believe they were more or less fighters with a lot of
> >training on mounted combat and riding. One could also make a PrC
> >entitled Rohirrim with those skills and a feat progression including
a
> >lot of mounted combat.
>
> Granted, but in lieu of such a prestige class, IMO ranger suits them.
>
Or custom building the ranger class to include more mounted combat
feats and taking away the magical powers.
> >> Tom Bombadil (another possible Maia) could possibly be DvR 1-2.
Why
> >ot
> >> DvR 0? Because you could state that the Ring cannot affect beings
of
> >> DvR 1 or higher - the Ring had no effect on Bombadil, but Gandalf
was
> >> certainly concerned that it might affect himself. Why not higher?
> >> Because, let's face it, he just doesn't come across as being
divine
> >> enough.
> >> **
> >Tom Bambadil is an enigma. Tolkien left him that way on purpose.
>
> Yes, Bombadil is an odd one by design. When FotR came out, omitting
> Bombadil, I did feel a moment of pain. But then I figured, the guy
just
> comes across as a relapse into an acid trip part-way through the book
> that serves pretty much as a side-trek to rescue the hobbits from the
> barrow-wights. Then again, the barrow-wight scene in the book is one
of
> my favourites - cutting Bombadil logically meant cutting that, too,
for
> which I mourn.
>
Cutting out Bombadill also meant cutting out the important scene where
he gives the hobbits the special blades which make three major
appearances: on Weathertop when Frodo stabbed the Witch King in
desparation and the Nazgul appeared to fear them, Merry's strike on the
Witch King which layed him low and allowed Eowyn to make the killing
strike, and Pippen's strike on the troll which ended Book V. The
movies don't even bother to take their blades into account (despite how
special they were).
Mark Blunden
> drow wrote:
>> Alien mind control rays made Rump Ranger <buttp...@fadmail.com>
> write:
>>> The thing is that outside of Frodo, all the other hobbits show
>>> signs of entering what could be called D&D classes during their
>>> adventures. Frodo doesn't fight nor do anything like sneaking but
>>> instead bears the Ring. No easy task but he'd fail without Sam and
>>> Gollum.
>>
>> obviously, frodo was taking levels in 'Ringbearer', a custom class
>> designed by the DM with incredibly strong Will saves and little else.
>
>> (enough to overcome the steadily increasing DCs of the ring's
>> influence as he drew closer to mordor, until he rolls a natural 1 at
>> the cracks of doom.) after destroying the ring, of course, the
>> player realized that his character was now utterly pointless and
>> chose to retire him.
>>
>
> Heh. I wonder what Gollum's level was. Oh wait, Gollum took orders
> from Frodo, didn't he?
Gollum was an ex-Ringbearer - he'd lost most of the cool class powers, and
could only get them back by getting hold of the Ring.
--
Mark.
Rump Ranger
Ophidian wrote:
> Rump Ranger wrote:
>
> >
> >>What about Eowen?
> >
> > Forgot about her. She's a fighter but she's pretty special being
able
> > to smite the Witch King.
>
> From his wording, anyone can hit him or hurt him, but "No man"
> can kill him. She only had to be "not a man". Same can be argued
> for Merry. The Witch King had a limitation. His slayer had
> no particular advantage other than a second X chromone.
>
Merry's blade did lay his defenses down low. There was a special
property to it (one poster said Ringwraith bane sword which is
logical).
> > Although Merry's barrow-blade had something
> > to do with it.
>
> Magic blade attuned to undead.
>
Then why did the barrow-wight have them? Orcs and trolls feared them
and felt a degree of disgust when seeing them. Maybe a protection from
evil effect on the wielder?
> > Another toughy: Tom Bambadil.
>
> Vermin with delusions of Bard-hood.
>
> > The Ring had no effect on him and he
> > wasn't bothered by barrow-wights
>
> Gak. At that point I'm thinking Paladin. <g>
>
Heh. Bambadil is an enigma. Probably a diety of some sort but I don't
like D&D's new ways of dealing with them (for starters, dieties and
epic level characters are nearly the same).
Rump Ranger
Peter Knutsen wrote:
> Rump Ranger wrote:
> > That's what I thought except that they're more like shadows with a
wail
> > of the banshee type of effect which stuns and puts fear into men
rather
> > than kills them. I'd also say they had a pretty powerful fear aura
> > (people didn't need to see them to feel their presence).
>
> In Decipher's LOTR RPG, the fear aura grows stronger the
> more ringwraiths there are (the Witch-King probably ought to
> count as three ringwraiths, although I can't recall if the
> RPG included this).
>
> In D&D3 terms, the DC could start out at 20, and then go up
> by +2 for each additional ringwraith, except the Witch-King
> adds +6 instead of +2 (if the Witch-King is alone, his DC
> would be 24).
>
That makes sense.
> Or would a higher DC be more suitable? Base 25, and +3 per
> Nazgul, or +9 for witchie?
>
I don't think you need to jack it up that high. Otherwise real high
level characters like Faramir, Eowyn, and Aragorn would have been
overcome. Unless you want to give them immunity to fear, which is
understandable (in any case, I know Gandalf would be immune).
> [...]
> [Faramir]
> > Hard to tell but he could best any Rider of the Rohirrim in combat
(at
> > least that's what Eowyn thinks when she sizes him up). The only
two
> > people of Rohan I think who could take Faramir (or give him a run
for
> > his money) would be Eomer or Theoden.
>
> I don't think either of those could beat Faramir. Possibly
> not even both *together*. Faramir is, or so I seem to recall
> having read (in one of the Letters?), almost pure Numenorean
> blood. Which is pretty damn competent, overall. And, of
> course, on top of bloody good genes he's had several decades
> of intensive training (Aragorn was like 90 in the books -
> Faramir could easily have been 50, which is not much older
> than Theoden, but nevertheless young and spry for a Dunedain).
>
I'm just saying the only two which I saw as standing a chance. It's
all academic because Faramir wouldn't fight them, but the Eomer I
imagined was one hell of a warrior. As was Theoden at his end. But if
push came to shove, he probably would take them both now that I think
of it.
> Of course, put Eomer on a horse, and Aragorn on foot, and I
> wouldn't bet (much) on the outcome. As for Theoden, I think
> he's too old. But he'd make it easier for Eomer if he helped.
>
I'd think Aragorn could take Faramir alone. Despite Theoden's age, he
was a pretty good warrior. He was also fearless which is why I
disliked PJ's characterization of him during the TTT (although they did
a good job only during the ride of the Rohirrim and their charge). PJ
just got Theoden wrong.
> [...]
> >>Elrond: Fighter/Wizard
> >>Galadriel: Sorcerer or Wizard
> >>I see both at epic levels. Closely above Aragorn but below Gandalf.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Below Gandalf, but I'd think at least Elrond would wipe the floor
with
> > Aragorn. Seriously. Galadriel doesn't strike me as the combat
type.
>
> Well, Elrond and Aragorn are relatives. Aragorns distant
> forefather, Elros, was Aragorns brother.
Huh? Both a father and a brother? Sounds like one of them hillbilly
families to me.
> Elrond is also very
> much a scholar, whereas Aragorn isn't too badly modelled by
> a D&D Ranger (although he'd benefit from some kind of
> Prestige Class, or at least a Feat, that gives bonuses to
> his troops in mass battles).
>
Could be a racial trait. Like you said, there are different subraces
of Men and "balance" shouldn't matter. Aragorn was born greater than
most men and might have a sort of bardic ability to inspire courage in
them.
> But Elrond has age going for him. He's several thousand
> years old (He'd have been born close to the end of the First
> Age. The second age lasted for, IIRC, around 2500 years, and
> LOTR takes place a bit more than 3000 years into the Third
> Age), and as a Half-Elf who has chosen the Elven side
> (whereas Elros chose the Human side), he hasn't aged at all.
> He's as fit as your average 30 year old Human would be.
>
Yup. If it came to blows, I'd say Elrond would win sheerly based on
experience.
> > I'd say she has some pretty strong charm spells at her disposal.
> > Elrond sounds like he has at least some druidic powers (able to
control
> > the river which guards his land). Also remember that both had one
of
>
> More general, are there any D&D supplements (official or
> otherwise?) with rules for this kind of "power of the land"
> concept?
>
> Or for that matter, other RPG systems which does this?
> (Decipher's LOTR core book has only very little). It
> interests me.
>
AD&D's Dark Sun allowed Druids to have "power of the land" abilities
within their groves. Part of it could be a pact with nature spirits
who'd help out provided the one they made the pact with needed it. As
far as a codified system, I wouldn't know. Outside of D&D and White
Wolf (mostly Mage which does allow people to construct their own
domains and control reality), the only other system I'm really familiar
with is Dream Pod 9's Silhouette, which doesn't deal with magic all
that much (Heavy Gear and Jovian Chronicles have no magic and Tribe 8's
magic system is nothing like D&D's).
Rump Ranger
Er, how is that clumsy when it was Frodo's astonishment? He may have
realized the Elves were immortal but never imagined that Elrond was
actually there. Or maybe the reality of it finally dawned on him: that
he was in the presence of the true movers and shakers of ME.
Rump Ranger
Kelly Pedersen wrote:
> Kevin Lowe wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > Plus I say that Aragorn gets too little credit. He had to be
actively
> > stopped from taking a crack at the Balrog, and he never showed any
signs
> > of stupidity or ignorance.
>
> OTOH, Gandalf, presumably the person who knew best what a Balrog was
> capable of (they were distant cousins, sorta), said "This is a foe
> beyond any of you." I have to say I trust Gandalf over Aragorn, on
this one.
>
Actually, Legolas was the one to first recognize it. Granted, Gandalf
may have known what it was, but I think only Gandalf alone could have
stood up against it. He also didn't want the hobbits to die so he
pushed Aragorn away. One gets the impression he knew what would
happen.
> > I think he knew he and Gandalf stood a good
> > chance of taking it, and if he hadn't been responsible for
shepherding
> > Frodo onward he would have taken his shot. As I believe I have
said
> > earlier, if he wasn't the equal of the great Balrog-whuppin' human
> > heroes of the First Age he certainly thought he was.
>
> Unfortunately, there's no record (at least, outside the History of
> Middle Earth stuff, which I haven't read extensively), of _any_ human
> taking out a Balrog. Even Hurin, refered to as "the greatest warrior
of
> mortal men", doesn't seem to have taken out any Balrogs. The only
Balrog
> slayings I can remember are Gandalf's, and Ecthelion and Glorfindel,
as
> part of the sacking of Gondolin, during the First Age. Admittedly,
> Ecthelion _did_ kill Gothmog, the Lord of Balrogs, but he still died
> himself. In fact, _all_ specific recorded Balrog slayings seem to
have
> been mutual kills. Even Gandalf, who just came back.
Hence, the inspiration for the Balor's ability to explode when it's
slain. You may kill it, but it will cause grevious harm to you in it's
death throes.
Ian R Malcomson
>Heh. Bambadil is an enigma. Probably a diety of some sort but I don't
>like D&D's new ways of dealing with them (for starters, dieties and
>epic level characters are nearly the same).
You're kidding! If I was power-maxing, I'd take divine ranks over epic
levels *any* day!
Mark Blunden
> Ophidian wrote:
>> Rump Ranger wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> What about Eowen?
>>>
>>> Forgot about her. She's a fighter but she's pretty special being
>>> able to smite the Witch King.
>>
>> From his wording, anyone can hit him or hurt him, but "No man"
>> can kill him. She only had to be "not a man". Same can be argued
>> for Merry. The Witch King had a limitation. His slayer had
>> no particular advantage other than a second X chromone.
>>
>
> Merry's blade did lay his defenses down low. There was a special
> property to it (one poster said Ringwraith bane sword which is
> logical).
That's correct, it's stated in chapter 6 of Return of the King, shortly
after the witch-king's death, that the blade was made by the men of
Westernesse specifically to fight against the Witch-King, who was their
chief enemy at the time. "No other blade, not though mightier hands had
wielded it, would have dealt a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh,
breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will."
So one way to see it would be that the enchantment on Merry's blade broke
the Witch-King's defences, rendering him vulnerable to Eowyn's strike.
>>> Although Merry's barrow-blade had something
>>> to do with it.
>>
>> Magic blade attuned to undead.
>>
>
> Then why did the barrow-wight have them? Orcs and trolls feared them
> and felt a degree of disgust when seeing them. Maybe a protection
> from evil effect on the wielder?
They were in the barrow because they had been there since before the wraiths
inhabited it - it was part of an ancient fortress of Westernesse, which was
overrun in ancient times by the forces of the Witch-King, and still haunted
by some of his servants.
--
Mark.
Kevin Lowe
"Rump Ranger" <buttp...@fadmail.com> wrote:
> Exactly. Did Galadriel do a lot of fighting during that time?
Galadriel is as old as they get and was definitely one of the hard core.
She was in on the first, quixotic voyage of the elves to whup Morgoth,
and the ensuing Kinslaying. In other words she's been hitting evil with
a stick at least as long as any being that exists, and she hit some good
with a stick too when it got in her way.
When she said she could take the ring and rule Middle-Earth, she meant
it. When she said that she wouldn't be all sweetness and light if she
did, she meant that too.
Not that you would know *any* of this from the core LotR. :) Tolkien's
like that.
Kevin Lowe,
Tasmania.
Kevin Lowe
vince garcia <vggar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Rump Ranger wrote:
> > What say you all?
>
> I say Gandalf was a 5th level magic user
Good to have you back, Mr Gygax.
Kevin Lowe,
Tasmania.
Rupert Boleyn
upon a tablet of ether:
> Plus I say that Aragorn gets too little credit. He had to be actively
> stopped from taking a crack at the Balrog, and he never showed any signs
> of stupidity or ignorance. I think he knew he and Gandalf stood a good
> chance of taking it, and if he hadn't been responsible for shepherding
> Frodo onward he would have taken his shot. As I believe I have said
> earlier, if he wasn't the equal of the great Balrog-whuppin' human
> heroes of the First Age he certainly thought he was.
Didn't he spend time in Gondor as a general, etc., under a false name
back in his younger years?
--
Rupert Boleyn <rbo...@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
Rupert Boleyn
<pe...@sagatafl.invalid> carved upon a tablet of ether:
> That was Elrond, telling about the battle fought by The Last
> Alliance (of Men and Elves) against Sauron, which ended with
> Saurons "death" when Isildur cut off his ring-finger with
> the stump of Narsil. Elrond relays this tale at the Council,
> and Frodo then expresses astonishment that Elrond was
> actually there, since it was so long ago (which was a bit
> clumsy of Tolkien, since Frodo already *knew* that Elves
> were immortal, but then again LOTR is the first fantasy
> novel ever, according to most definitions, so Tolkien needed
> to invent a lot of techniques, making it no wonder that he
> didn't get everything right).
Perhaps Frodo, while intellectually aware that elves were immortal,
hadn't felt it at a gut level until then. It's an illustration of the
difference between knowing that 'elves are immortal and never grow
old', and 'elves are immortal, and saw the elder days in person'.
Rump Ranger
Ian R Malcomson wrote:
> Rump Ranger <buttp...@fadmail.com> writes
> >Heh. Bambadil is an enigma. Probably a diety of some sort but I
don't
> >like D&D's new ways of dealing with them (for starters, dieties and
> >epic level characters are nearly the same).
>
> You're kidding! If I was power-maxing, I'd take divine ranks over
epic
> levels *any* day!
>
Maybe so but I don't think both systems go together all that well. In
any case, I don't really use Dieties and Demigods because I think
WotC's first products handled divine power better: the Primal Order.
Certainly a gem of a book (series) which handled divine power in a
unique way.
Rump Ranger
Ah, the way I understood is that the barrow wight laid the blades near
the hobbits.
Rupert Boleyn
<pe...@sagatafl.invalid> carved upon a tablet of ether:
> But before the Ages of the Sun there were Ages of the Stars,
> and IIRC Galadriel was born back then. So she's easily twice
> as old as Elrond. My random guess is that she's something
> like 15'000 years old, maybe 20'000.
I don't think time meant the same back then, somehow.
Rump Ranger
Kevin Lowe wrote:
> In article <1105217441....@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> "Rump Ranger" <buttp...@fadmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Exactly. Did Galadriel do a lot of fighting during that time?
>
> Galadriel is as old as they get and was definitely one of the hard
core.
>
> She was in on the first, quixotic voyage of the elves to whup
Morgoth,
> and the ensuing Kinslaying. In other words she's been hitting evil
with
> a stick at least as long as any being that exists, and she hit some
good
> with a stick too when it got in her way.
>
Never read any other Tolkien work outside of the Hobbit/LOTR.
> When she said she could take the ring and rule Middle-Earth, she
meant
> it. When she said that she wouldn't be all sweetness and light if
she
> did, she meant that too.
>
I don't doubt she's one of the few who could master the Ring. From her
comments though I imagine she was saying something simliar to Gandalf:
that she'd take the Ring and desire to do good but would be overwhelmed
by it and become evil in the end.
> Not that you would know *any* of this from the core LotR. :)
Tolkien's
> like that.
>
His ME is far too detailed to fit in four books. Which is what makes
it so interesting, because even without all the other books, the
history presented gives one the idea that ME is a real living world.
Mark Blunden
I think that was a different blade or blades - after Tom Bombadil exorcised
the wights, he piled all the treasure in the open for passersby to take (as
I recall, this removed the curse on it), and selected a few of the very best
for the hobbits.
--
Mark.
Rump Ranger
You're probably right. In any case, he did something to the ground
afterwards which prohibited the barrow wight from returning. Probably
casted hallow.
Ubiquitous
buttp...@fadmail.com says...
>Has anyone here bothered to put out some well thought out stats as to
>major characters of Middle-Earth?
No, I lost inteest in such silly things decades ago.
Miracle
>> Merry's blade did lay his defenses down low. There was a special
>> property to it (one poster said Ringwraith bane sword which is
>> logical).
>
> That's correct, it's stated in chapter 6 of Return of the King,
> shortly after the witch-king's death, that the blade was made by the
> men of Westernesse specifically to fight against the Witch-King, who
> was their chief enemy at the time. "No other blade, not though
> mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt a wound so bitter,
> cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen
> sinews to his will."
>
> So one way to see it would be that the enchantment on Merry's blade
> strike.
To anyone's strike, I'd say, but it happened to be Eowyn...
Seems to me that "no man can kill me" was more of a prophecy than resistance
to man's blows.
--
I've never heard words candy and only in the same sentence before
Miracle
> But before the Ages of the Sun there were Ages of the Stars,
> and IIRC Galadriel was born back then. So she's easily twice
> as old as Elrond. My random guess is that she's something
> like 15'000 years old, maybe 20'000.
I don't think its even possible to guess like that. Year as 365 days, exsist
only in Ages of the Sun.
> One should be mindful, though. That Elrond has Maia blood in
> his veins
But also humans...
> (Aragorn has too, and Denethor, Faramir, and
> Boromir - not 100% sure about Imrahil).
Are you sure about Denethor and sons?
> Galadriel hasn't.
> That Maia blood (which is not even particularly dilluted in
> Elrond - Melian was only something like half a dozen
> generations ago) could balance out Galadriel having "seen
> the Light(tm)".
Elrond is Melians grandgrandgrandson. :-)
Miracle
> Well, Elrond and Aragorn are relatives. Aragorns distant
You mean Elrond's ;o)
If you do some math it seems like:
- Luthien was 1/2 Elf, 1/2 Maia
- Dior was 1/2 Human, 1/4 Elf and 1/4 Maia
- Elwing was 1/4 Human, 5/8 Elf and 1/8 Maia
- Elors was (and Elrond is) 1/8 Human, 13/16 Elf and 1/16 Maia
- Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen are 1/16 Human, 29/32 Elf and 1/32 Maia
The last line also counts for Elros' son who was Aragorns forefather, so you
can easily count that Maia's blood in Aragorn's veins took neglectable part
for it halves with every generation. However it still has significant part
in Elrond's (and even Arwen's) blood.
:o)
Miracle
<cut>
What about the Eagles? They sure aren't ordinary animals considering the
appear more than once as Deux in machina. Remember final battles from LOTR
and Hobbit, rescuing Gandalf (and party) again in both books , and even back
in the First Age when they saved Fingon and Maedhrost from Thangorodrim and
so on...
Miracle
> Both are ancient beyond recockning (well, not really, Tolkien tells
> somewhere when they were born), but on the Third Age of the Light,
> they were ancient beyond any imagination. Elrond was in the battles
> in the end of the second age of light, and he old by then. Galadriel
> had seen the lights in the west, and had born in the first age, if
> I'm not totally mistaken.
Galadriel is daughter of Finarfin, son of Finwe, so yes, she was born in the
First Age, and is probably the oldest Elf east of Aman and the oldest of
living Noldor.
Elrond is _way_ much younger (end a Half-Elf), although he had married
Galadriel's daughter Celebrian. He fought with Gil-galad and Isildur (Last
Aliance)
> But one must also remember, that the spirits that came to middle-earth
> as the five wizards were also ancient beyond recockning.
This goes even beyond Galadriel's (or any Elf's) recockining...
Miracle
> In the books Gandalf is much more 'active' than in the movies.
> It starts in 'The Hobbit' with tricking the trolls and casting
> fireballs at the attacking worgs and orcs IIRC. Classic
> wizard/sorcerer stuff.
> The hobbits and Aragorn see his flashy firemagic
> from the far and found a whole hilltop scorched and blackened (IIRC
> again).
Don't forget Gandalf had Narya, the Ring of Fire.
> Elrond: Fighter/Wizard
> Galadriel: Sorcerer or Wizard
> I see both at epic levels. Closely above Aragorn but below Gandalf.
Considering Galadriel's age, she should definitely be much more above
Aragorn.
Aaron F. Bourque
<Bilbo>
>The reason why I don't think he needs Aristocrat is that the
>Shire never really had a government to speak of.
They had a post office. They had sheriffs.
Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; they had more
government than some countries today . . .
--
God saves and man sins
But the tragedy comes when
He does both of them
Do not meddle in the affairs of fanboys, for they are obvious and quick to
anger.
Miracle
> Did Galadriel do a lot of fighting during that time?
Yes! Battles described in LOTR are not the only ones that took place at that
time. If you've seen ROTK EE you might remember Legolas saying to Gimli that
his kniship is probably fighting Saurons forces at the very time of
speaking. Easterlings and Orcs were attacking Dwarfs on th north, Elves
under Thranduil in Mirkwood as well as those under Galadriel in Lorien.
There were 3 assaults from Dol Guldur IIRC.
Peter Knutsen
Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> Didn't he spend time in Gondor as a general, etc., under a false name
> back in his younger years?
Aragorn did spend time in Gondor, under a false name, but I
don't think he was an actal general. Probably a high-ranking
officer, though, depending on how meritocratic the Gondorian
Armed Forces were.
--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
Peter Knutsen
Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> Perhaps Frodo, while intellectually aware that elves were immortal,
> hadn't felt it at a gut level until then. It's an illustration of the
> difference between knowing that 'elves are immortal and never grow
> old', and 'elves are immortal, and saw the elder days in person'.
Sure, but Frodo overdid it. Tolkien also overdid Elrond's
emphasis on "I was there".
--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
Peter Knutsen
Miracle wrote:
> Peter Knutsen wrote:
>>But before the Ages of the Sun there were Ages of the Stars,
>>and IIRC Galadriel was born back then. So she's easily twice
>>as old as Elrond. My random guess is that she's something
>>like 15'000 years old, maybe 20'000.
>
> I don't think its even possible to guess like that. Year as 365 days, exsist
> only in Ages of the Sun.
So are you saying that each of the Ages of the Stars lasted
only a few dozen years?
(Tolkien says that he "thinks" that the Ages have quickened,
that is grown shorter in length, but maybe he was only
talking about the Ages of the Sun?)
>>One should be mindful, though. That Elrond has Maia blood in
>>his veins
>
> But also humans...
Are you saying that Elrond has human blood in his veins
(which is correct) or that humans also have Maia blood in
their veins (which is correctly only for a very small
percentage of "humans")?
>>(Aragorn has too, and Denethor, Faramir, and
>>Boromir - not 100% sure about Imrahil).
>
> Are you sure about Denethor and sons?
Yes, they're descendants from Numenoreans, and as Steward
Denethor must have had a damn impressive pedigree. Which
means that he can almost certainly trace his blood back to
Elros.
>>Galadriel hasn't.
>>That Maia blood (which is not even particularly dilluted in
>>Elrond - Melian was only something like half a dozen
>>generations ago) could balance out Galadriel having "seen
>>the Light(tm)".
>
> Elrond is Melians grandgrandgrandson. :-)
Well, let's see... Melian married Elwe Singollo (a.k.a. Elu
Thingol), and they got Lutien Tinuviel (1/2 Elf, 1/2 Maia).
Luthen married Beren, and they got some kid (who was 1/4
Elf, 1/4 Maia and 1/2 Human), whose name I've forgotten.
I've forgotten the details of the rest too, but there was
Earendil at one stage, and then it culminated in Elrond &
Elros, one of whom chose the Elven life and another a mortal
Life.
--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
Peter Knutsen
Miracle wrote:
> Peter Knutsen wrote:
>>Well, Elrond and Aragorn are relatives. Aragorns distant
>>forefather, Elros, was _Aragorns_ brother
>
> You mean Elrond's ;o)
Yes I do. Sorry :-)
> If you do some math it seems like:
> - Luthien was 1/2 Elf, 1/2 Maia
> - Dior was 1/2 Human, 1/4 Elf and 1/4 Maia
This step is where my memory faded. It's been too long since
I last read the Silmarillion.
> - Elwing was 1/4 Human, 5/8 Elf and 1/8 Maia
> - Elors was (and Elrond is) 1/8 Human, 13/16 Elf and 1/16 Maia
Elros.
> - Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen are 1/16 Human, 29/32 Elf and 1/32 Maia
> The last line also counts for Elros' son who was Aragorns forefather, so you
> can easily count that Maia's blood in Aragorn's veins took neglectable part
ISTR Tolkien writing, at one point, that Numenorean blood
(which, by definition, contains a fairly large fraction of
Elf and Maia) sometimes "runs strong" in particular
individuals, such as Aragorn and Faramir.
It's like genes skipping generations. You'll get a dozen
Dunedain, in a row, who are hardly superior to ordinary Men,
and then the a pure one is born, greatly surprising everybody.
> for it halves with every generation. However it still has significant part
> in Elrond's (and even Arwen's) blood.
> :o)
--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
Rump Ranger
Rump Ranger
Miracle wrote:
> Rump Ranger wrote:
> <cut>
>
> What about the Eagles? They sure aren't ordinary animals considering
the
> appear more than once as Deux in machina. Remember final battles from
LOTR
> and Hobbit, rescuing Gandalf (and party) again in both books , and
even back
> in the First Age when they saved Fingon and Maedhrost from
Thangorodrim and
> so on...
>
Yeah, the giant Eagles are certainly special. Sorta like rocs or
something like that.
BTW- Barliman Butterbur could kick everyone's ass in ME.
Rump Ranger
Aaron F. Bourque wrote:
> From: "Rump Ranger" buttp...@fadmail.com
>
> <Bilbo>
>
> >The reason why I don't think he needs Aristocrat is that the
> >Shire never really had a government to speak of.
>
> They had a post office. They had sheriffs.
>
The Sheriffs didn't really do all that much outside of getting rid of
creatures which trespassed into the Shire or help the lost. Shirefolk
pretty much ran the Shire as they saw fit where families did their own
thing and everyone helped each other.
> Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; they had more
> government than some countries today . . .
>
You say that like it's a bad thing. We could live a lot better lives
if we didn't have governments demanding to lord over us.
Rupert Boleyn
carved upon a tablet of ether:
> Maybe so but I don't think both systems go together all that well. In
> any case, I don't really use Dieties and Demigods because I think
> WotC's first products handled divine power better: the Primal Order.
> Certainly a gem of a book (series) which handled divine power in a
> unique way.
I thought TPO was very like D&D Immortals.
Rump Ranger
Miracle wrote:
> Rump Ranger wrote:
> > Did Galadriel do a lot of fighting during that time?
>
> Yes! Battles described in LOTR are not the only ones that took place
at that
> time.
No kidding! I couldn't have guessed that from reading the books </end
sarcasm>. I asked if Galadriel specifically fought because I've only
read the Hobbit and LOTR. What happened during most of the First Age
isn't dealt with there but in other books. That's what I was asking
(First Age).
BTW- There's no mention of Galadriel specifically fighting during the
end of the Third Age. She stayed in Lorien and the Elves which lived
there under her command pretty much destroyed them. Reading the
chapters dealing with Lorien in book II, one gets the idea that
Galadriel wasn't needed because those Elves were so damn deadly in the
trees.
>If you've seen ROTK EE you might remember Legolas saying to Gimli that
> his kniship is probably fighting Saurons forces at the very time of
> speaking. Easterlings and Orcs were attacking Dwarfs on th north,
Elves
> under Thranduil in Mirkwood as well as those under Galadriel in
Lorien.
> There were 3 assaults from Dol Guldur IIRC.
Yes, which are covered in the Apendices of the LOTR. Why did you
assume the assinine idea that I only thought "on screen" battles in the
movie were the only ones fought in the history of ME? Hell, the movie
even makes it clear battles were fought before the story.
Sheesh.
Rupert Boleyn
<pe...@sagatafl.invalid> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
Elrond was talking to people who weren't there, and some of them
(Boromir, etc.) were likely to not realise it (emotionally, if not
intellectually). Or maybe Elrond just liked reminding people that he
knew what he was talking about 'hell, I was THERE'. Not an uncommon
trait.
Rump Ranger
Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> On 8 Jan 2005 15:38:02 -0800, "Rump Ranger" <buttp...@fadmail.com>
> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
> > Maybe so but I don't think both systems go together all that well.
In
> > any case, I don't really use Dieties and Demigods because I think
> > WotC's first products handled divine power better: the Primal
Order.
> > Certainly a gem of a book (series) which handled divine power in a
> > unique way.
>
> I thought TPO was very like D&D Immortals.
>
Never checked that book out so I wouldn't know. In any case, dieties
rarely show up in my campaign outside of background. Directly, it's
usually proxies. Never used an avatar on screen much less the divine
itself.
Rupert Boleyn
carved upon a tablet of ether:
> Never read any other Tolkien work outside of the Hobbit/LOTR.
IMO if you intended doing any world-design or running a game in Middle
Earth the Silmarillion is a must. It's where the world design stuff is
that wasn't crammed into the LotR's appendices is. Besides, the
original Elves vs Morgoth period has real potential for high-powered
heroic adventuring.
> I don't doubt she's one of the few who could master the Ring. From her
> comments though I imagine she was saying something simliar to Gandalf:
> that she'd take the Ring and desire to do good but would be overwhelmed
> by it and become evil in the end.
I think she'd be overcome by her own dark side as much as by the ring,
though it's probably one and the same thing. The elves wished for
stasis, and used their rings to work to that end. How much stronger
would that effect bewith the greatest remaining elf-lord wielding the
One Ring?
Rupert Boleyn
tablet of ether:
> You mean Elrond's ;o)
> If you do some math it seems like:
> - Luthien was 1/2 Elf, 1/2 Maia
> - Dior was 1/2 Human, 1/4 Elf and 1/4 Maia
> - Elwing was 1/4 Human, 5/8 Elf and 1/8 Maia
> - Elors was (and Elrond is) 1/8 Human, 13/16 Elf and 1/16 Maia
> - Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen are 1/16 Human, 29/32 Elf and 1/32 Maia
> The last line also counts for Elros' son who was Aragorns forefather, so you
> can easily count that Maia's blood in Aragorn's veins took neglectable part
> for it halves with every generation. However it still has significant part
> in Elrond's (and even Arwen's) blood.
> :o)
Ah, but how thin must Maia blood be before it is truely
'insignificant'?
Rupert Boleyn
<pe...@sagatafl.invalid> carved upon a tablet of ether:
> ISTR Tolkien writing, at one point, that Numenorean blood
> (which, by definition, contains a fairly large fraction of
> Elf and Maia) sometimes "runs strong" in particular
> individuals, such as Aragorn and Faramir.
>
> It's like genes skipping generations. You'll get a dozen
> Dunedain, in a row, who are hardly superior to ordinary Men,
> and then the a pure one is born, greatly surprising everybody.
It also appears that nobility of spirit strengthens the effect of the
blood. The Numenoreans didn't start fading in stature, ability, and
longevity until they became decadent and were swayed by Sauron.
Aaron F. Bourque
Rump, meet Ubi.
Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; that was the greatest
sentence I will ever type . . .
Rump Ranger
Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> On 8 Jan 2005 15:43:49 -0800, "Rump Ranger" <buttp...@fadmail.com>
> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
> > Never read any other Tolkien work outside of the Hobbit/LOTR.
>
> IMO if you intended doing any world-design or running a game in
Middle
> Earth the Silmarillion is a must. It's where the world design stuff
is
> that wasn't crammed into the LotR's appendices is. Besides, the
> original Elves vs Morgoth period has real potential for high-powered
> heroic adventuring.
>
Been meaning to get around to it but it reads sorta like the Bible (or
an encyclopedia) and I always got other books to read (I buy books and
then read them a year or so later because I want to read so many). I
can only get a few pages into before I get bored (I didn't bother
reading some of the Appendices either. Linguistics of Tolkien Elvish
doesn't interest me too much).
> > I don't doubt she's one of the few who could master the Ring. From
her
> > comments though I imagine she was saying something simliar to
Gandalf:
> > that she'd take the Ring and desire to do good but would be
overwhelmed
> > by it and become evil in the end.
>
> I think she'd be overcome by her own dark side as much as by the
ring,
> though it's probably one and the same thing. The elves wished for
> stasis, and used their rings to work to that end. How much stronger
> would that effect bewith the greatest remaining elf-lord wielding the
> One Ring?
>
Who knows? The thing is, Tolkien did hint that the capacity for evil
was in all his characters. The Ring would amplify it.
Kevin Lowe
"Rump Ranger" <buttp...@fadmail.com> wrote:
> Yeah, the giant Eagles are certainly special. Sorta like rocs or
> something like that.
My reading is that the giant eagles were the main mechanism by which the
Valar meddled in the affairs of Middle-Earth. They only meddle as a
last resort, but when eveything else has gone pear shaped the eagles
will just show up.
Kevin Lowe,
Tasmania.
Kelly Pedersen
>
> Miracle wrote:
[snip]
>> Elrond is Melians grandgrandgrandson. :-)
>
>
> Well, let's see... Melian married Elwe Singollo (a.k.a. Elu Thingol),
> and they got Lutien Tinuviel (1/2 Elf, 1/2 Maia). Luthen married Beren,
> and they got some kid (who was 1/4 Elf, 1/4 Maia and 1/2 Human), whose
> name I've forgotten.
Dior. He married Nimloth, and they had Elwing, plus two sons, Elured and
Elurin. Elwing married Earendil, who was himself the son of a human
(Tuor) and an elf (Idril Celebrindal). Elrond and Elros were their
children. Therefore, Melian was Elrond's great great grandmother.
[snip]
Kelly Pedersen
> Taneli Pirinen wrote:
[snip]
>>Meriadoc Branbybuck and Peregrin Took, both young members of great
>>families of the Hobbits.
>>
>
>
> Both of which haven't come of age by the time the first book starts.
> They're the youngsters, still in their "tweens" when they leave the
> Shire, IIRC.
'Fraid not. Merry is, in fact, 35, two years past his tweens. Pippin,
OTOH, _is_ in his tweens, as he is 27 when the action starts.
[snip]
Rupert Boleyn
carved upon a tablet of ether:
> Been meaning to get around to it but it reads sorta like the Bible (or
> an encyclopedia) and I always got other books to read (I buy books and
> then read them a year or so later because I want to read so many). I
> can only get a few pages into before I get bored (I didn't bother
> reading some of the Appendices either. Linguistics of Tolkien Elvish
> doesn't interest me too much).
Well, just read the parts dealing with the history/myth of Middle
Earth. To me it reads like a good narrative history, or book of tales.
> Who knows? The thing is, Tolkien did hint that the capacity for evil
> was in all his characters. The Ring would amplify it.
That's my point, pretty much. And of course all his characters had the
capacity for evil - they were supposed to be 'real', and real people
are never pure good or pure evil.
Kelly Pedersen
> Peter Knutsen wrote:
>
>>Well, Elrond and Aragorn are relatives. Aragorns distant
>>forefather, Elros, was _Aragorns_ brother
>
>
> You mean Elrond's ;o)
> If you do some math it seems like:
> - Luthien was 1/2 Elf, 1/2 Maia
> - Dior was 1/2 Human, 1/4 Elf and 1/4 Maia
> - Elwing was 1/4 Human, 5/8 Elf and 1/8 Maia
> - Elors was (and Elrond is) 1/8 Human, 13/16 Elf and 1/16 Maia
Problem right here. Remember, Elwing married Earendil, who was also 1/2
elf and 1/2 human. So, in fact, Elros and Elrond are 3/8 human, 9/16
elf, and 1/16 Maia.
> - Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen are 1/16 Human, 29/32 Elf and 1/32 Maia
And Arwen et all are 3/16 human, 25/32 elf, and 1/32 Maia.
There. Pedantry done.
Ian R Malcomson
>Wasn't it more the case that MERP spell lists stopped at 10th level, so
>if characters advanced further, you'd have to buy the Rolemaster books?
D&D spells stop at 9th, so does that mean D&D is limited to 9th-level?
Okay, so RM extends spell lists up to 50th (and, in some cases in
certain optional books, beyond that). However, a higher-level MERP
(without RM) character is going to gain similar benefits as an
18th+-level D&D one - that is, no more new spell power levels, but more
PP (capable of casting more spells before requiring rest), better chance
of spells working or achieving greater effect (higher spellcasting skill
bonuses - higher Directed Spells OB = more chance of a greater crit;
higher level = greater range, duration, etc. for spells dependent on
character level; etc.).
MERP had no theoretical upper level limit, except for the fact that the
core rulebook was designed around a 10th-level upper basis. In a way,
yes, RM could be used as an aide to advancing MERP beyond 10th, but the
mathematically-minded could extend the various EP tables themselves. RM
and MERP, though compatible, have a number of differences, which is why
an appendix section in the MERP rulebook was required to explain how to
use the two together.
--
Ian R Malcomson
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box"
Ian R Malcomson
>IIRC, players didn't get to pick their species in MERP, they had to
>roll for it, a *moronic* kludge to avoid all the players deciding to
>play Noldo Elves (or Dunedain).
You'd remember wrong. Players chose their race/culture. There is a
random table for generating race, in a similar way the DMG has such.
The only system restriction on elves is that they cannot be chosen
without placing a high stat in Pr.
>MERP would probably be a shitty ressource for characters. I got the
>core rule book from the library, last year, and as I expected, the
>magic system was much more like D&D than it was like Tolkien, so I
>can't imagine how they could have even *tried* to get the abilities of
>the characters *correct*.
Spell points? Developed spell lists? Skill-based spellcasting?
MERP/RM spellcasting doesn't really parallel D&D.
We don't see enough spellcasting in Tolkien to make a judgement as to
what form it might take, game-wise. I'd suggest a "knowledge-of-magic"
(i.e., skill-based system) rather than one lifted from Vance fits
better.
Miracle
>> I don't think its even possible to guess like that. Year as 365
>> days, exsist only in Ages of the Sun.
>
> So are you saying that each of the Ages of the Stars lasted
> only a few dozen years?
I'm saying that I (we) don't know how long had Ages of the Stars lasted. You
can't measure it in _years_ because, its something that depends on Sun.
>>> One should be mindful, though. That Elrond has Maia blood in
>>> his veins
>>
>> But also humans...
>
> Are you saying that Elrond has human blood in his veins
yes>>> (Aragorn has too, and Denethor, Faramir, and
>>> Boromir - not 100% sure about Imrahil).
>>
>> Are you sure about Denethor and sons?
>
> Yes, they're descendants from Numenoreans,
So? Only Kings of Numenor had Maia blood (Elros' descendants), not all of
them (IIRC).
> and as Steward
> Denethor must have had a damn impressive pedigree. Which
> means that he can almost certainly trace his blood back to
> Elros.
I'd say it's just a gues, probably wrong one. I might be wrong however...
>> Elrond is Melians grandgrandgrandson. :-)
>
> Well, let's see... Melian married Elwe Singollo (a.k.a. Elu
> Thingol), and they got Lutien Tinuviel (1/2 Elf, 1/2 Maia).
> Luthen married Beren, and they got some kid (who was 1/4
> Elf, 1/4 Maia and 1/2 Human), whose name I've forgotten.
>
> I've forgotten the details of the rest too, but there was
> Earendil at one stage, and then it culminated in Elrond &
> Elros, one of whom chose the Elven life and another a mortal
> Life.
yep
Miracle
> I asked if Galadriel specifically fought because I've only
> read the Hobbit and LOTR. What happened during most of the First Age
> isn't dealt with there but in other books. That's what I was asking
> (First Age).
well excuse my English then. I thought you were asking about the Third age.
> BTW- There's no mention of Galadriel specifically fighting during the
> end of the Third Age. She stayed in Lorien and the Elves which lived
> there under her command pretty much destroyed them. Reading the
> chapters dealing with Lorien in book II, one gets the idea that
> Galadriel wasn't needed because those Elves were so damn deadly in the
> trees.
She purified Dol Guldur IIRC.
>> If you've seen ROTK EE you might remember Legolas saying to Gimli
>> that his kniship is probably fighting Saurons forces at the very
>> time of speaking. Easterlings and Orcs were attacking Dwarfs on th
>> north, Elves under Thranduil in Mirkwood as well as those under
>> Galadriel in Lorien. There were 3 assaults from Dol Guldur IIRC.
>
> Yes, which are covered in the Apendices of the LOTR.
Sorry, don't remember where is it from...
> Why did you
> assume the assinine idea that I only thought "on screen" battles in
> the movie were the only ones fought in the history of ME?
I didn't
Miracle
>> If you do some math it seems like:
>> - Luthien was 1/2 Elf, 1/2 Maia
>> - Dior was 1/2 Human, 1/4 Elf and 1/4 Maia
>
> This step is where my memory faded. It's been too long since
> I last read the Silmarillion.
I've been reading it last days, that's why I did all this :)
>> - Elwing was 1/4 Human, 5/8 Elf and 1/8 Maia
>> - Elors was (and Elrond is) 1/8 Human, 13/16 Elf and 1/16 Maia
>
> Elros.
typo