Masterwork pricing
JS
system? The flat +300gp for weapons seems odd to me, though I suppose it
probably makes sense for balance reasons (pay 300 gp for +1 to hit and the
ability to enchant the weapon). I've been considering making it a straight
x10 or x20 cost multiplier instead, but that idea gets crazy really fast if
you try and port it over to armor pricing. Anyone else have thoughts on
this?
--
JS
CARRIER LOST
woohoo! every quarterstaff is masterwork!
--
.-----.
|l~~~l| dr...@visi.com (CARRIER LOST) <http://www.visi.com/~drow/>
|l___l| -----------------------------------------------------------------
/+++++\ "It came down to using either VAX VMS or OS/2, so I killed
~~~~~~~ myself instead." -- A UNIX Hacker in Hell
JS
"CARRIER LOST" <dr...@bambi.visi.com> wrote in message
news:3ef0cb16$0$616$a186...@newsreader.visi.com...
> woohoo! every quarterstaff is masterwork!
>
Indeed, that's obviously a problem... perhaps instituting a minimum cost
somewhere as well...
--
JS
Christopher Mathieu
news:FG3Ia.10541$0v4.9...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> I'm curious... has anyone houseruled changes to the masterwork pricing
> system?
I've thought about this too, and realized that a flat-rate improvement
doesn't reflect the differences between items -- a masterwork bastard sword
costs the same to improve as a club, while a quarterstaff costs more than
either one. The same applies to armor; by the time someone can afford to
get full-plate, they can just toss in a little more and make it masterwork;
that masterwork leather armor, however, is a MAJOR increase.
I found a document online that has some house-rules on a way to do this,
based on the weapon type and size, and a multiplier of the original cost.
For some reason, I cannot find the original document, but I'll gladly send
copies (or post the whole thing, including credit for the author). Gimme
until later tonight to find it in my files, and it'll be showing up here.
prometheus
OMO, 300 gp is not exorbitant for a masterwork weapon of any type. If
you want to change it based on the actual cost I would say to use this
as a base value,m and then charge something like twice the base cost
of the item, in addition to that. IN other words, a 100 gp suit of
armor would cost 300 + 2 * 100 = 500gp to make masterwork, not
including the base price of 100 gp to make it in the first place, for
a totla of 600 gp. A 15 gp weapon would cost 345 gp total.
Christopher Mathieu
"Christopher Mathieu" <lonep...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:G86Ia.1140$Rk.552...@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
> "JS" <j...@somewhere.net> wrote in message
> news:FG3Ia.10541$0v4.9...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > I'm curious... has anyone houseruled changes to the masterwork pricing
> > system?
>
> based on the weapon type and size, and a multiplier of the original cost.
> For some reason, I cannot find the original document, but I'll gladly send
> copies (or post the whole thing, including credit for the author). Gimme
> until later tonight to find it in my files, and it'll be showing up here.
As promised. It's a bit long, but you really need the whole thing (even the
tables at the end, so's you can see the results).
* * *
Alternative rules for Masterwork
Weapons and Armor
By Sean DJ Taylor
Hi, I'm Sean. This is my first of many coming Bloodless Rules articles. I'm
a math guy so you'll find that I spend a lot of time on new game mechanics
that enhance the current rules. Enjoy!
Many people have noticed the uncomfortable mechanic that is the
prices of masterwork items. I don't blame them for doing this way in the PH
at all. The simple price addition isn't complicated, and does what it's
intended to do. So is there really a need to change it? A lot of people say
that it is unrealistic. I don't believe that just because something isn't
very realistic it should be changed, when it comes down to it, the mechanics
D&D should always remain a game of numbers. Not that I don't like realism...
I love it; it's just that D&D was made to be simple, not realistic. So,
again, why change it? The answer to that question is, of course, game
balance, as well as the limitations that the original system causes.
Lets start with the most obvious item that suffers from the
current system. The dagger. It currently costs 302 gp to make a masterwork
dagger. This certainly keeps knife throwers from ever having a large
selection of better than average weapons. The dagger is not a powerful
weapon and as dictate of game balance should nearly cost-less. There is an
even deeper offense in the armor. Full plate. Full plate costs 1,500 gp
normally and 1,650 with masterwork. Now, any PC who has the money for full
plate certainly has the money for a masterwork set. Peanuts. This is
absolutely silly.
Now at this point I should have a army of people reading this
going, what do I care, masterwork sucks in most cases. Well, weapons are
pretty good with their +1 to attack, but armor gives you only a point off
your armor check penalty. What shouldn't be forgotten though is that all
weapons and armor that you want to add enchantments to have to be
masterwork. I'll bet that in the course of a full campaign 85% of the
masterwork items that you pay for are specifically for making magical items.
That is why a proper system for masterwork items is important.
The intention behind this system is that final price should be
based on the initial price, not a random amount of gold. Once you have gone
through the formula, you have the final price of the item.
<OGC start>
Weapons:
Modifiers
By Size:
Tiny -50%
Small -20%
Medium +0%
Large +20%
Huge +50%
Gargantuan +100%
Colossal DM's
By Class:
Simple -25%
Martial +0%
Exotic +25
And the equation is: ([{Price + 75} × 3] × Modifiers) = Final price
or
Price +75
×3
×Modifiers
Armor:
Modifiers
By Class:
Light -30%
Medium -15%
Heavy +0%
And the equation is: ([{Price × 1.5} + 200] × Modifiers) = Final price
Shields:
By Class:
Small (including buckler): +0%
Large: +15%
Tower: +30%
And the equation is: ([{Price × 5} + 100] × Modifiers) = Final price
<OGC end>
For a full list of the prices for items from the PHB look at the bottom of
the article.
Well that feels a little better. A dagger costs 57.75gp. I
recommend rounding this up rather then dealing with silver and copper. Now
you can buy 5 masterwork daggers for the price of one masterwork
longsword... dagger throwers rejoice! This also brings masterwork full plate
up to 2,450gp.
Things that this new system does:
· Removes penalties for being a two-weapon fighter versus using a
single two-handed weapon.
· Puts a small penalty on people who are using more powerful
weapons.
· Makes being small slightly less costly.
· Allows you to have a masterwork dagger or light mace at first
level. Finally! A reason for a rogue to use a dagger instead of a short
sword. Of course it still comes with penalties in the form of 48 gp and 1
point less average damage.
· Makes some things like the Repeating Crossbow and the Mighty Bows
very expensive. Not that I see anything wrong with that in either realism or
game balance.
Now this system isn't entirely perfect and there are a few
changes that need to be made due to the new way that the prices are
calculated. For one the prices of the double weapons are too high
considering you have to do it to each end separately. To deal with this and
take some of the edge off the price, consider each end of the weapon to be
one size smaller then the whole weapon size. I think this is a quite
realistic way of dealing with it. And if you look at the numbers it makes
more sense then making one side one size smaller and the other two sizes
smaller.
I'm very happy how the weapons prices turned out. The average before and
after the new system of masterwork weapons is about the same. The armor is
slightly more questionable. The armors are a good bit more expensive the
before. I spent way more time tweaking the armor equation than the weapons,
and from the approach I'm taking I don't think I could have done anything
different without setting the whole balance of armors out of whack.
And now for the resulting prices:
<OGC start>
Weapon, Masterwork
Arrows (20) 182.4
Axe, orc double 587.25
Axe, throwing 199.2
Battleaxe 255
Bolts, crossbow (10) 57
Bullets, sling (10) 56.325
Chain, spiked 435
Club 168.75
Crossbow, hand 393.75
Crossbow, heavy 281.25
Crossbow, light 125.4
Crossbow, repeating 1,413.75
Dagger 57.75
Dagger, silvered 10,63.75
Dart 10,12.45
Falchion 1,540
Flail, dire 1,717.75
Flail, heavy 1,324
Flail, light 1,249
Gauntlet, spiked 10,60
Glaive 1,298.8
Greataxe 1,342
Greatclub 1,288
Greatsword 1,450
Guisarme 1,302.4
Halberd 1,306
Halfspear 1,171
Hammer, gnome hooked 1,413.25
Hammer, light 1,182.4
Handaxe 1,194.4
Javelin 1,171
Kama 1,242.55
Kama, halfling 1,173.25
Kukri 1,186.75
Lance, heavy 1,255
Lance, light 1,194.4
Longbow 1,540
Longbow, Composite 1,630
Longspear 1,288
Mace, heavy 1,195.75
Mace, light 1,132
Mighty composite longbow +1 1,990
Mighty composite longbow +2 1,350
Mighty composite longbow +3 1,710
Mighty composite longbow +4 2,070
Mighty composite shortbow +1 1,675
Mighty composite shortbow +2 1,900
Morningstar 1,186.75
Net 1,413.25
Nunchaku 1,242.55
Nunchaku, halfling 1,173.25
Pick, heavy 1,249
Pick, light 1,189.6
Quarterstaff 1,213.75
Ranseur 1,306
Rapier 1,285
Sap 1,182.4
Scimitar 1,270
Scythe 1,334.8
Shortbow 1,315
Shortspear 1,219.45
Shuriken 1,171
Siangham 1,245.7
Siangham, halfing 1,173.25
Sickle 1,133.65
Sling 1,123.75
Sword, bastard 1,478.5
Sword, long 1,270
Sword, short 1,204
Sword, two-bladed 1,761.25
Trident 1,270
Urgrosh, dwarven 1,543.75
Waraxe, dwarven 1,456.75
Warhammer 1,261
Whip 1,239.4
Armor, Masterwork
Padded 1,145.25
Leather 1,150.5
Studded leather 1,166.25
Chain shirt 1,245
Hide 0189.125
Scale Mail 1,233.75
Chainmail 1,361.25
Breastplate 1,425
Splint mail 1,500
Banded mail 1,575
Half-plate 1,100
Full plate 2,450
Buckler 1,175
Shield, small, wooden 1,115
Shield, small, steel 1,145
Shield, large, wooden 1,155.25
Shield, large, steel 1,230
Shield, tower 1,325
<OGC end>
JS
> As promised. It's a bit long, but you really need the whole thing (even
the
> tables at the end, so's you can see the results).
<snip>
Thanks for posting that... I like the concept, though the costs balloon
faster than I might like. For those prices, I'd be tempted to add in other
benefits for making items masterwork...
--
JS
Anonymous Jack
had time to playtest it or work out armor yet, or go through the
weapons list to see if everything works out sensibly. Sometime, I'll
import the weapons and armor list into Excel and give it a whirl.
IMC, the cost of purchasing a masterwork weapon is 50 gp plus 10 times
the base cost of the item.
For example, a masterwork dagger (normally 2 gp) would cost 70 gp,
while a masterwork longsword (normally 15 gp) would cost 200 gp. A
masterwork greatsword would cost 550 gp, and 20 masterwork arrows
would cost 60 gp.
These prices align with what I want characters to have available IMC.
I haven't had time to deal with tiny or large versions of stuff yet.
CARRIER LOST
> IMC, the cost of purchasing a masterwork weapon is 50 gp plus 10 times
> the base cost of the item.
ouch, my coinpurse. so much for masterwork plate armor. :)
> For example, a masterwork dagger (normally 2 gp) would cost 70 gp,
> while a masterwork longsword (normally 15 gp) would cost 200 gp. A
> masterwork greatsword would cost 550 gp, and 20 masterwork arrows
> would cost 60 gp.
20 arrows, not 10? how much for 1 arrow, or 200?
--
.--------------------------------------------------------------------------.
| dr...@visi.com (CARRIER LOST) <http://www.visi.com/~drow/> |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| "Never invoke the gods unless you really want them to appear. It |
| annoys them very much." -- G.K. Chesterton |
`--------------------------------------------------------------------------'
gb_...@ichr.uwa.edu.au
> Cheap Jedi Mind Tricks led Anonymous Jack <alordo...@yahoo.com> to write:
>> IMC, the cost of purchasing a masterwork weapon is 50 gp plus 10 times
>> the base cost of the item.
> ouch, my coinpurse. so much for masterwork plate armor. :)
Assuming I'm reading this right, this would make the heavier armours
even more pointless. Full plate armour +1 would cost 77,050 gold. 75,050
for the masterwork plate, 1000 for the enchantment. Why bother?
--
Glenn Butcher gb_...@ichr.uwa.edu.au
Horse, you are truly a creature without equal, for you fly without wings
and conquer without sword. - The Koran
JS
<gb_...@ichr.uwa.edu.au> wrote in message
news:bcurbj$jre$1...@enyo.uwa.edu.au...
> CARRIER LOST <dr...@bambi.visi.com> wrote:
> > Cheap Jedi Mind Tricks led Anonymous Jack <alordo...@yahoo.com> to
write:
> >> IMC, the cost of purchasing a masterwork weapon is 50 gp plus 10 times
> >> the base cost of the item.
>
> > ouch, my coinpurse. so much for masterwork plate armor. :)
>
> Assuming I'm reading this right, this would make the heavier armours
> even more pointless. Full plate armour +1 would cost 77,050 gold. 75,050
> for the masterwork plate, 1000 for the enchantment. Why bother?
Note that the poster never claimed this system to work for armors...
--
JS
JS
> > Cheap Jedi Mind Tricks led Anonymous Jack <alordo...@yahoo.com> to
write:
> >> IMC, the cost of purchasing a masterwork weapon is 50 gp plus 10 times
> >> the base cost of the item.
>
> > ouch, my coinpurse. so much for masterwork plate armor. :)
>
> Assuming I'm reading this right, this would make the heavier armours
> even more pointless. Full plate armour +1 would cost 77,050 gold. 75,050
> for the masterwork plate, 1000 for the enchantment. Why bother?
*blink* Wait... how'd you get that number? Were you to apply his formula to
armor, you would still get (50 + 10*1500) = 15,050. Tack on 1000 for the +1
enchantment, I get 16,050. Granted, it's still too high, but the numbers
should be right...
--
JS
James Quick
<YXDIa.14484$3o3.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"JS" <j...@somewhere.net> wrote:
Well, Anonymous Jack did only say that he used this for *masterwork
weapons*. So he did not say anything about armor. Perhaps he does
something different for armor. Whether or not having different rules
for Masterworkifying weapons and armor is a good thing, is entirely a
different matter.
--
James Quick [][][] jamesqu...@hotmail.com
"Who's your dungeon master *now*?"
James Quick
<wQDIa.14479$3o3.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"JS" <j...@somewhere.net> wrote:
Dammit, I thought I was going to be the first to point this out. ;-)
JS
"James Quick" <JamesQu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:JamesQuick1967-93C...@news.bellatlantic.net...
> Well, Anonymous Jack did only say that he used this for *masterwork
> weapons*. So he did not say anything about armor. Perhaps he does
> something different for armor. Whether or not having different rules
> for Masterworkifying weapons and armor is a good thing, is entirely a
> different matter.
Definately true. You might argue that there already is a different rule in
place for masterwork armor due to the different price tag on it. You could
keep the basic same system in place, except change the multiplier to 5
instead of 10, perhaps. This still gives quite a high margin for the full
plate, though. Maybe 100 gp + double the base cost?
--
JS
Anonymous Jack
> "James Quick" <JamesQu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:JamesQuick1967-93C...@news.bellatlantic.net...
> > Well, Anonymous Jack did only say that he used this for *masterwork
> > weapons*. So he did not say anything about armor. Perhaps he does
> > something different for armor. Whether or not having different rules
> > for Masterworkifying weapons and armor is a good thing, is entirely a
> > different matter.
Yep - I also said:
"I just started writing house rules for masterwork weapons. Haven't
had time to playtest it or work out armor yet, or go through the
weapons list to see if everything works out sensibly."
So I haven't even looked at it other than as a POTENTIAL guideline for
Masterwork weapons - haven't even started using it yet. I apologize
for any confusion or consternation I've caused; I just threw this out
(prematurely?).
As regards to different rules for "Masterworkifying" armor - in real
world legends and history, we have the famed Toledo blades, Excalibur,
mystic old guys in the mountains making Samurai swords,etc. but very
little by way of legendary armors. So, I'll just go with whatever is
reasonable to me and my players.
If I get a full set of rules that is workable (IMO) I'll post it, but
2 young kids, working wife, full time job, and a yard full of weeds...
and a couple of recalcitrant computers :-)
Jim Davies
This is how I do it:
A Masterwork melee weapon costs 20 times as much as normal, plus 50
gp.
Effects: +1 to hit, -1 to fumble.
A Sharp Masterwork weapon costs twice as much as a normal MW weapon.
This can apply only to edged weapons. If the weapon is damaged, this
bonus is lost until it is sharpened again.
Effects: +1 to damage.
Masterwork arrows cost 7 gp (as the book): +1 to hit.
Masterwork bullets cost 4 gp and give no bonus (for enchantment only).
A Masterwork shield costs 10 times as much, plus 20 gp.
Effects: -1 to penalties, +1 to max Dex, -5% arcane failure, -20%
weight.
Masterwork armour costs twice as much, plus 20 gp, and requires
fitting.
Effects: -1 to penalties, -5% arcane failure, -10% weight.
A Masterwork missile weapon (inc mighty bows) costs 3 times as much as
normal, plus 50 gp.
Effects: +1 to hit, +20% range.
Craft items are non-magical +1, and have all masterwork benefits.
Prices are typically three times Masterwork, where available.
--
Jim Davies
----------
No, not that one.
Pope Jubal
> > Cheap Jedi Mind Tricks led Anonymous Jack <alordo...@yahoo.com> to write:
> >> IMC, the cost of purchasing a masterwork weapon is 50 gp plus 10 times
> >> the base cost of the item.
>
> > ouch, my coinpurse. so much for masterwork plate armor. :)
>
> Assuming I'm reading this right, this would make the heavier armours
> even more pointless. Full plate armour +1 would cost 77,050 gold. 75,050
> for the masterwork plate, 1000 for the enchantment. Why bother?
That's wonderful!
My Rogue is going to go out right now and buy a ton of steel, an item
of +20 Craft (armor) (now, before the price goes up in 3.5) and a wand
of Fabricate.
He's going to make a fortune!
Pope Jubal
Jubal no Oni
Dark Oracle of Jell-O
---