Raistlin Vs.Drizzt
ea...@freenet.calgary.ab.ca
Simple statement: In LEGENDS (by Weis & Hickman) Raistlin had the power to
defeat Takhisis. Could Drizzt destroy a GOD? I don't think so.
Kevin Langley
: When Raistlin took the 'test' of the conclave,I was just idly considering
: who would win in a duel if,let us hypothesize,the drow Raistlin had
: combatted were Drizzt Do'Urden? Of course the circumstances were
: different,Raistlin was a weak mage at the time and required the aid
: of Fistandantulus,so changin the variables around,let us consider if Raist
: and Drizzt were to do battle at the pinnacle of their powers? Both are
: seemingly equal in cunning. You decide...
Hmmm...don't really know. I was kinda wondering who'd win
with Raistlin vs. Elminster, Elminster vs. Halister, Elminster or
Blackstaff vs. Raistlin?
Jason Choi
: Hmmm...don't really know. I was kinda wondering who'd win : with
Raistlin vs. Elminster, Elminster vs. Halister, Elminster or : Blackstaff
vs. Raistlin?
were just created 25th lvl mages blah blah blah,no real depths to their
cunning or intellect as Raistlin.As stated in the previous posting
Raist had the power to challenge the queen herself.
Jas
Steven C
As much as I'll hate myself in the morning for doing this, I'm going to
jump in on this discussion. As mentioned in the Planescape setting, most
planar travellers look upon Dragonlance mages as inherently inferior.
Their reliance upon their native moons makes them much weaker when away
from their home plane. As an afterthought, this would seem to suggest
that DL mages would be more relucant to planar travel than most.
But again, understand that the victor will be whoever the author decides.
Surely you've had low-level characters defeat more powerful opponents, and
vice-versa. The intricacies of combat are not defined by sheer power alone.
Steven C
nor Fame I slight, nor for her favors call
she comes unlook'd for, if she comes at all.
Evan T. Kaiser
>
>Jason Choi (ujc...@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu) wrote:
>: When Raistlin took the 'test' of the conclave,I was just idly considering
>: who would win in a duel if,let us hypothesize,the drow Raistlin had
>: combatted were Drizzt Do'Urden? Of course the circumstances were
>: different,Raistlin was a weak mage at the time and required the aid
>: of Fistandantulus,so changin the variables around,let us consider if Raist
>: and Drizzt were to do battle at the pinnacle of their powers? Both are
>: seemingly equal in cunning. You decide...
>
>with Raistlin vs. Elminster, Elminster vs. Halister, Elminster or
>Blackstaff vs. Raistlin?
>
Raistlin vs. Drizzt-I've never read anything with Drizzt in it, but I've
heard how awesome he is. Still, I don't think he could
beat Raistlin at the height of his power.
Raistlin vs. Elminster-No question here. Elminster would whip Raist's ass
any day. I don't care if Raist was able to challenge
Takhisis herself, because he couldn't possibly beat
her since she's a god and he wasn't (at least if you
ignore the Bloodstone ordeal). Elminster is so much
cooler than Raisltlin, and I've read that El is
practically a demigod anyway.
El vs. Halister-Sorry, but I've never heard of Halister. What campaign
world is he in?
Khelben vs. Raistlin-It'd be closer than with El, but I still think Blackstaff
would finish him pretty quickly considering their
level differences. Khelben isn't very cool, though,
so that factor doesn't come into play here. It's still
not much of a contest, though.
I wish I could find stats for all these guys. That would be interesting.
Anyone willing to mail me them? Thanks in advance...
Evan T. Kaiser
Northwestern University, Evanston, IL. USA
core...@nwu.edu
Yves Lacombe
: Blackstaff vs. Raistlin?
We might as well bring this thread to its most ridiculous conclusion
by wondering aloud... who would win? Raistlin .vs. A Star Destroyer
from Star Wars. (Check out those lame threads on rec.arts.startrek.*
and rec.games.mecha). ;-)
--
Yves @ RKCSIS, Road Kill Cleanup Services on the Information Superhighway
"It's a sad thing to say about the media that the only thing that got
O.J. out of the headlines were the terrible events in Oklahoma" - Kevin B.
Alexander Shearer
: would finish him pretty quickly considering their
: level differences. Khelben isn't very cool, though,
: so that factor doesn't come into play here. It's still
: not much of a contest, though.
: I wish I could find stats for all these guys. That would be interesting.
: Anyone willing to mail me them? Thanks in advance...
:
: Evan T. Kaiser
: Northwestern University, Evanston, IL. USA
: core...@nwu.edu
Of course, the real problem is that Raistlin was written with
basically no regard for AD&D rules (a wise decision, I think). Thus, he
is much more like, in game-terms, a mage from Ars Magica in terms of how
he goes about spellcasting. Given the Legends Raistlin, I'd have to say
goodbye to /all/ opponents.
Alex Shearer
ga...@netcom.com
(BTW: I personally was hoping Elminster really was dead in the Avatar
Trilogy...I /hate/ 2-D egotrip powerNPCs like him.)
Jason Choi
who would win in a duel if,let us hypothesize,the drow Raistlin had
combatted were Drizzt Do'Urden? Of course the circumstances were
different,Raistlin was a weak mage at the time and required the aid
of Fistandantulus,so changin the variables around,let us consider if Raist
and Drizzt were to do battle at the pinnacle of their powers? Both are
seemingly equal in cunning. You decide...
-Jason
The Golem
> Raistlin vs. Elminster-No question here. Elminster would whip Raist's ass
> any day. I don't care if Raist was able to challenge
> Takhisis herself, because he couldn't possibly beat
> her since she's a god and he wasn't (at least if you
> ignore the Bloodstone ordeal). Elminster is so much
> cooler than Raisltlin, and I've read that El is
> practically a demigod anyway.
(Pardon me while I choke back my laughter) Excuse me? Raistlin became a
god, and triumphed over ALL the other gods. Elminster wouldn't have a
chance. Raist isn't "practically", he IS. The only reason that the gods
of Krynn still exist is that Raistlin stepped down of his own choice,
when shown a vision of the future in which he was the only god...
+-------------+
| The Golem |
+--------------------+-------------+---------------------+
| Quicksilver Dragon |LET THE LORD | Alan P. Beaudoin |
| -==(UDIC)==- |OF CHAOS RULE| Windsor, ON, Canada |
+-------------+--------------------------+---------------+
|bea...@server.uwindsor.ca|
+--------------------------+
Steven C
>
>
> > Raistlin vs. Elminster-No question here. Elminster would whip Raist's ass
> > any day. I don't care if Raist was able to challenge
> > Takhisis herself, because he couldn't possibly beat
> > her since she's a god and he wasn't (at least if you
> > ignore the Bloodstone ordeal). Elminster is so much
> > cooler than Raisltlin, and I've read that El is
> > practically a demigod anyway.
>
> (Pardon me while I choke back my laughter) Excuse me? Raistlin became a
> god, and triumphed over ALL the other gods. Elminster wouldn't have a
> chance. Raist isn't "practically", he IS. The only reason that the gods
> of Krynn still exist is that Raistlin stepped down of his own choice,
> when shown a vision of the future in which he was the only god...
Please don't let the entire summer be devoted to such posts as these on
the AD&D newsgroup! I take a look at the new posts after a long day's work,
and half are arguments that are based upon nothing other than one's favorite
gaming world. Come one, surely someone out there has some good ideas to
post _ I'd rather go through the beholder debates again than this! How
about a discussion on favorite spells? Most worthless spells? Top 10
justifications for killing off PC thieves? Anything! Guys? Anyone out
there? Guys.....
Luke Thin
IMHO I think that Raistlin would come out on top at the pinnicle of power
battles. Mages are the most powerful characters at high levels, not even
psionics rival them in terms of raw destructive ability. However if they were to
meet at lower levels, like when Raistlin took the test, Drizzt would kick ass.
So what if Drizzt has magic resistance? Oh dear pit fiends' physical attacks
don't have to contend with magic resistance.
What about the characterisation of each characters. Drizzt had 9 books
developing him while Raistlin had only 6(?). In any case I would be wondering
who turn out to be the best developed in their respective worlds. My vote goes
to Raistlin.
Other opinions?
Luke
Kevin Langley
: any day. I don't care if Raist was able to challenge
: Takhisis herself, because he couldn't possibly beat
: her since she's a god and he wasn't (at least if you
: ignore the Bloodstone ordeal). Elminster is so much
: cooler than Raisltlin, and I've read that El is
: practically a demigod anyway.
: world is he in?
Oops...sorry. Halister is the owner/creator of Undermountain in
the FR setting. He's about a 29th level or so I believe. He's kinda
like an evil, mentally unbalanced version of Elminster who lives in
probably the biggest dungeon in the FR.
: Khelben vs. Raistlin-It'd be closer than with El, but I still think Blackstaff
: would finish him pretty quickly considering their
: level differences. Khelben isn't very cool, though,
: so that factor doesn't come into play here. It's still
: not much of a contest, though.
: I wish I could find stats for all these guys. That would be interesting.
: Anyone willing to mail me them? Thanks in advance...
Well, I've seen the old stats for Khelben, and Elminster in the
Hall of Heros book and Halister's stats are in Undermountain boxed set.
I've never seen stats for raistlin though at his pinacle of power. One
note on Elminster's stats is that he _WAS_ higher than 29th level at some
point. According to _Ruins of Myth Drannor_ Elminster was one of like 12
or so mages that helped to weave the mythal around Myth Drannor and to
add powers of his choosing to the mythal. To do that, requires 10th
level magic according to the set and 10th level spells were available
only to 41st level and higher mages. So therefore, Elminster was at
least 41st level at some point and somehow got reduced in power, probably
after the gods took 10th level magic from the world.
Kevin
Kevin Langley
: > Raistlin vs. Elminster-No question here. Elminster would whip Raist's ass
: > any day. I don't care if Raist was able to challenge
: > Takhisis herself, because he couldn't possibly beat
: > her since she's a god and he wasn't (at least if you
: > ignore the Bloodstone ordeal). Elminster is so much
: > cooler than Raisltlin, and I've read that El is
: > practically a demigod anyway.
: (Pardon me while I choke back my laughter) Excuse me? Raistlin became a
: god, and triumphed over ALL the other gods. Elminster wouldn't have a
: chance. Raist isn't "practically", he IS. The only reason that the gods
: of Krynn still exist is that Raistlin stepped down of his own choice,
: when shown a vision of the future in which he was the only god...
We only know how powerful Raist is though cause he was
power-hungry enough to go after gods. We don't really know how powerful
Eliminster is. Elminster was at least 41st level at the beginnings of
Myth Drannor. He held 10th level magic at the time. I'm sure that if he
was in enough of a bind then Mystra would probably re-grant him 10th
level magic as well as his previous levels. I don't know how he got from
41st at least to only 29th though. (He was at least 41st at some point
though as evidenced by info from _Ruins of Myth Drannor_)
The Golem
>
> about a discussion on favorite spells? Most worthless spells? Top 10
> justifications for killing off PC thieves? Anything! Guys? Anyone out
What justification for killing PC thieves? I'd like to hear some myself.
I usually play thieves.
Alistair James Robert Young
We might as well bring this thread to its most ridiculous conclusion
by wondering aloud... who would win? Raistlin .vs. A Star Destroyer
from Star Wars. (Check out those lame threads on rec.arts.startrek.*
and rec.games.mecha). ;-)
To start a newish and even more ridiculous thread:
Does Protection from Normal Missiles work against proton torpedoes?
:-)
Alistair
--
--
Alistair Young - Arkane Systems Software Development & PC Consultancy
The opinions above are my company's, because I OWN it! [Team OS/2]
e-mail: aj...@st-and.ac.uk (preferred), ava...@arkane.demon.co.uk
Support the rmgrouping of all silly, unused, or duplicated alt.* groups!
Steven C
>
> On 28 May 1995, Steven C wrote:
> >
> > about a discussion on favorite spells? Most worthless spells? Top 10
> > justifications for killing off PC thieves? Anything!
>
> I usually play thieves.
I had said that in the hope someone would notice and start another thread ;)
It was all in humor! Still, just for the fun of it, I present my Top Ten
list (being made up as I go along):
Top Ten Reasons To Kill Off PC Thieves
10. The ability to Hear Noises? Yeah, right.
9. DMs need to set an example that they WILL kill PCs - volunteers?
8. Only need 2 XP to reach the next level!
7. Read Languages? Ditto.
6. Good target practice for a REAL class, like fighters.
5. Backstabbing that gold dragon probably wasn't the best idea.
4. The party found a Chime of Opening.
3. It oughta be a law anyway.
2. If he likes finding traps so much, let's see how he likes THIS one!
1. Two words - why not?
Any additions?
Kevin Austin Lam
: On 28 May 1995, Steven C wrote:
: > about a discussion on favorite spells? Most worthless spells? Top 10
: What justification for killing PC thieves? I'd like to hear some myself.
: I usually play thieves.
[The Golem's e-mail signature goes here.....somewhere]
Yeah! I'd like to know why anyone would want to kill off PC thieves? (Sure,
try to bash that iron-bound chest, let's see what happens!). Why not just
accept the fact that not all thieves are bad and leave them be? If you
wanna try to kill my PC thief/mage......you'd better be ready to get dead!
--
"Sothi Nuinqa Tsalarioth" | Kevin A. Lam
| Kev...@unixg.ubc.ca
Steven C
>
> The Golem (bea...@server.uwindsor.ca) wrote:
> : On 28 May 1995, Steven C wrote:
> : > about a discussion on favorite spells? Most worthless spells? Top 10
> : > justifications for killing off PC thieves? Anything!
> : What justification for killing PC thieves? I'd like to hear some myself.
> : I usually play thieves.
>
> try to bash that iron-bound chest, let's see what happens!). Why not just
> accept the fact that not all thieves are bad and leave them be? If you
> wanna try to kill my PC thief/mage......you'd better be ready to get dead!
Looks like the newsgroup has been taken over by humorless newbies ;) Okay,
I admit it - my ultimate goal is to drive the rogue class out of this beloved
game. Guess I'll have to change my plan now that I've been threatened with
a thief/mage! :p
Kevin Langley
: by wondering aloud... who would win? Raistlin .vs. A Star Destroyer
: from Star Wars. (Check out those lame threads on rec.arts.startrek.*
: and rec.games.mecha). ;-)
: To start a newish and even more ridiculous thread:
: Does Protection from Normal Missiles work against proton torpedoes?
Ok....how about this then.....Elminster vs. ......Da Bears!!!!!
Or Raistlin vs. Ditka? But....is it a regular Ditka or a
mini-Ditka.....how about Mini-magical Ditka???!!!! >=)
Kevin
"Who is General Failure and why is he reading my disk???"
Neal Dutta
>
>In article <D991E...@smegheads.montreal.qc.ca> lac...@smegheads.montreal.qc.ca (Yves Lacombe) writes:
>
> by wondering aloud... who would win? Raistlin .vs. A Star Destroyer
> from Star Wars. (Check out those lame threads on rec.arts.startrek.*
> and rec.games.mecha). ;-)
>
>To start a newish and even more ridiculous thread:
>
>Does Protection from Normal Missiles work against proton torpedoes?
>
Well I'd say it would protect from the impact, but not from the resulting
explosion :-).
Andrew MURIE
>What justification for killing PC thieves? I'd like to hear some myself.
>I usually play thieves.
Getting caught usually serves :)
g2...@unb.ca
> Of course, the real problem is that Raistlin was written with
>basically no regard for AD&D rules (a wise decision, I think). Thus, he
>is much more like, in game-terms, a mage from Ars Magica in terms of how
>he goes about spellcasting. Given the Legends Raistlin, I'd have to say
>goodbye to /all/ opponents.
>Alex Shearer
>ga...@netcom.com
====== Personally I feel that Raistlin would rock-da-house. I mean if you
look at things with Fonzy physics......coolness ALWAYS wins. Ok perhaps in
some demented authors mind Elminster IS in some way more powerful than Raist
(chyaaa right!!) but that guy is a beard sporting nim-rod!?!? Raistlin Magere
had the giant hairy groneys to take on a GOD!!!!!! Also he had the hottest
chick in the world jumping through hoops for him and the ENTIRE conclave of
wizards (the membership is about 1200) scared. So he teleports into the Tower
of Wareth just to tell them off.................this guy had NUTS!!!!!
Evan T. Kaiser
Well, I've read few D&D novels, and only one set (the DL Chronicles) concerning
Raistlin, but I think you have definitely underestimated Elminster's coolness
here. True, Raist has balls, and lots of people are afraid of him, but that
doesn't in itself make him cooler. I simply don't understand how anyone
can find such evil characters to be so neat. But I digress. Anyway, I can't
cite any specific things that El has done, but I know he's a bad-ass
nonetheless. You HAVE to be a bad-ass to become a 29th+ level mage. And
plenty of people fear him, it's just that they're almost all evil and thus
don't get mentioned in books because it's not unusual to say that a bunch
of weak evil people are afraid of a really powerful good person. Most of the
wizards in the conclave are wussies compared to their counterparts in the
Forgotten Realms anyway. Taking on a Dragonlance god is not the same thing as
taking on a god from another realm, since they are comparably much weaker if I
remember what I read from the DL boxed set correctly. Not to mention killable by
mortals, it seems. El shows up to lots of places to kick ass, and if it comes down to
getting chicks, Elminster gets LOTS of awesome females (human, elven, half-elven, and
even drow) ALL THE TIME, not just one.
Stuart Greenwood
: >wizards (the membership is about 1200) scared. So he teleports into the Tower
: >of Wareth just to tell them off.................this guy had NUTS!!!!!
Just out of curiousity where did you get the 1200 figure for the
conclave?
Stu
--
**************************************************************************
* And crawling on that planets's face, * Stuart Greenwood *
* some insects called the Human Race. * University of Sussex *
* Lost in time, * *
* and lost in space, * e-mail: ka...@central.susx.ac.uk *
* and meaning... * *
**************************************************************************
Bob Mungovan
thieves, too. I'm just too much of a softie to kill them off. My first
method was to let the campaign die, that worked a couple of times, too
bad for the rest of the players. Most recently, the thief in question
went to dual-class so is off studying magic for a year game time. (Yea!
out of my hair for about that real time!)
Enough about my experiences, a little about my philosophy about rogues.
I do see thieves as having a place in the XD&D campaign. However, since
I like to run high-fantasy/heroic campaigns, there are many thieves that
are not appropriate in this genre. I do like to see
"dungeon-delving/troubleshooting" thieves; for example the dwarven
locksmith is a personal favorite archetype for a rouge that fits in a
heroic campaign. I hate to see (the most common, in my experiences) the
"cutpurse" or the "burglar". Suited more to the city campaign (which I
have run) these types are a bane on the heroic campaign. They would
rather stay in town and pick the pockets/raid the homes of nobles instead
of earn an "honest" living by dungeon dwelling.
Bobaloo!
E mung...@gas.uug.arizona.edu
A
R (insert disclaimer/quote/cheer here)
Curtis Way
In a previous article, core...@nwu.edu (Evan T. Kaiser) says:
>In article <g2hk.33....@unb.ca>, g2...@unb.ca says:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Of course, the real problem is that Raistlin was written with
>>>basically no regard for AD&D rules (a wise decision, I think). Thus, he
>>>is much more like, in game-terms, a mage from Ars Magica in terms of how
>>>he goes about spellcasting. Given the Legends Raistlin, I'd have to say
>>>goodbye to /all/ opponents.
>>
>>>Alex Shearer
>>>ga...@netcom.com
>>
>>====== Personally I feel that Raistlin would rock-da-house. I mean if you
>>look at things with Fonzy physics......coolness ALWAYS wins. Ok perhaps in
>>some demented authors mind Elminster IS in some way more powerful than Raist
>>(chyaaa right!!) but that guy is a beard sporting nim-rod!?!? Raistlin Magere
>>had the giant hairy groneys to take on a GOD!!!!!! Also he had the hottest
>>chick in the world jumping through hoops for him and the ENTIRE conclave of
>>wizards (the membership is about 1200) scared. So he teleports into the Tower
>>of Wareth just to tell them off.................this guy had NUTS!!!!!
>
>Well, I've read few D&D novels, and only one set (the DL Chronicles) concerning
>Raistlin, but I think you have definitely underestimated Elminster's coolness
>here. True, Raist has balls, and lots of people are afraid of him, but that
>doesn't in itself make him cooler. I simply don't understand how anyone
>can find such evil characters to be so neat. But I digress. Anyway, I can't
>cite any specific things that El has done, but I know he's a bad-ass
>nonetheless. You HAVE to be a bad-ass to become a 29th+ level mage. And
>plenty of people fear him, it's just that they're almost all evil and thus
>don't get mentioned in books because it's not unusual to say that a bunch
>of weak evil people are afraid of a really powerful good person. Most of the
>wizards in the conclave are wussies compared to their counterparts in the
>Forgotten Realms anyway. Taking on a Dragonlance god is not the same thing as
>taking on a god from another realm, since they are comparably much weaker if I
>remember what I read from the DL boxed set correctly. Not to mention killable by
>mortals, it seems. El shows up to lots of places to kick ass, and if it comes down to
>getting chicks, Elminster gets LOTS of awesome females (human, elven, half-elven, and
>even drow) ALL THE TIME, not just one.
>
>Evan T. Kaiser
>Northwestern University, Evanston, IL. USA
>core...@nwu.edu
And besides, Elminster was going after chicks from other _WORLDS_ and
was doing planehopping when Raistlin was a little baby. Although
Raistlin did have the cajones to walk to Baator, and that is respectable
as well. Of course when Elminster gets killed, he bounces back (The
Avatars Series, I believe). Raistlin, however, had cool eyes. I would
say it would be close. How 'bout Macros (from Riftwar Saga) vs. Raistlin?
Or Pug?
But do you want to know who kicks ass?
Borys.
30th level wizard/psionicist, with dragon breath/claws/bite/size, 10
level spells (Elminster doesn't even know of 10th level spells'
existance), Defiling damage that goes beyond plants. So he got killed in
the Prism Pentad? He had enemies that were above 20th level easy, and he
had survived for _THOUSANDS_ of years after reaching Max Level. He was
powerful when the greatest of great wyrms was in diapers.
Gregg S. Smith
I can't
>cite any specific things that El has done, but I know he's a bad-ass
>nonetheless. You HAVE to be a bad-ass to become a 29th+ level mage. And
>plenty of people fear him, it's just that they're almost all evil and thus
>don't get mentioned in books because it's not unusual to say that a bunch
>of weak evil people are afraid of a really powerful good person. Most of the
>wizards in the conclave are wussies compared to their counterparts in the
===== Well not even Lance Ito could find faut with that testimony. I
must admit that I have only read the Azure Bonds and the Avatar trilogy
from the Forgotten Realms world. In these selections El is not mentioned
all that much so therefore i had spoken misinformed. I know I'll sound
like a parent doing this but......
THEY ARE BOTH SPECIAL IN THEIR OWN WAY
Now what if we had put a character I once had into this fray.
Scabbard Bal'allorn a 34th level Master Psionic. Oooooooo man did I
love playing THAT guy!
OLY Account 4
I usually don't need to kill of the PC thieves. The rest of the party
takes care of that perfectly well. Case in point:
After playing the Tomb of Horrors, one of my enterprising wizards,
recalling the huge doors of solid adamantite and mithril, in the tomb
decided to mine it with his hordes of undead. (Boy, did he have fun with
the doors that bleed!) When he finally got some of them out, he took
them to his (as yet) incomplete tower. The PC thief infiltrated the
tower to steal some of the wiz's gems, and then sold the plans to another
wizard. The thief would have gotten away, but the party's paladin had a
ring of truth. So he died instead.
This is a long way of saying that slimy evil thieves don't do well in
organized parties.
Demon Sultan of Khaipur
Brett Altschul
Lewis Beard
: point. According to _Ruins of Myth Drannor_ Elminster was one of like 12
: or so mages that helped to weave the mythal around Myth Drannor and to
: add powers of his choosing to the mythal. To do that, requires 10th
: level magic according to the set and 10th level spells were available
: least 41st level at some point and somehow got reduced in power, probably
Actually, you might be wrong, but I understand your confusion. Myth Drannor
DOES say that in the FR world one had to be 41st level to be able to cast
level 10 spells. It also says 10th level magic is gone. It also says
Elminster was involved in the creation of Myth Drannor's mythal. It
also says that he came up with one of the ideas in the mythal. However,
if you read the spell, only a few of the many mages required for the
casting need to be 41st level. After those few, any other number of mages
capable of 9th+ magic can assist and add powers. So Elminster didnt
have to be 41st ever to have been involved, if he assisted and if he
was not the primary caster.
Lewis
--
Lewis W. Beard le...@mickle.wes.army.mil le...@freud.inst.com
Lewis Beard
: "dungeon-delving/troubleshooting" thieves; for example the dwarven
: locksmith is a personal favorite archetype for a rouge that fits in a
: heroic campaign. I hate to see (the most common, in my experiences) the
: "cutpurse" or the "burglar". Suited more to the city campaign (which I
: have run) these types are a bane on the heroic campaign. They would
: rather stay in town and pick the pockets/raid the homes of nobles instead
: of earn an "honest" living by dungeon dwelling.
What?!! That's nuts. Just because a PC thief is of the cutpurse
variety, that does NOT mean he is not valuable to the players. It
does not mean that he will be trouble. It does not mean he will insist
on screwing off in town. I play a thief in a game, and when I am in
a non-city setting, I augment my combat abilities with sleep-venomed
missile weapons and backstabbing. I'm also great at disarming traps
as well. Invaluable. I also have by far the best charisma in the game,
and since charisma and roleplaying and charisma checks and reaction
rolls are the first thing that happens in MANY encounters, we often make
unusual allies, or talk our way out of a bad spot, or convince someone
we mean well when we dont. Also, I dont waste the group's time by goofing
off in town. If I want to do that I arrange a solo role-playing session
with th GM. HOWEVER, being a thief in a city and in a thieve's guild gives
you great contacts that you can use to get items to help yourself or
the party.
Have an adventure hook for the PCs? Have the PC thief's guildmaster set it
up, and depending on whether the PC thief tells the party or whether
the guildmaster has some people with disguise or acting come in and
convince the PCs to go on a mission for heroic reasons (i.e. the party
never knew they were dupes, except the PC thief), you have a great tool.
Use those guild connections. They can actually help the group.
And if you need to convince your PC thief not to steal from the party,
allow the other PCs to react as their PCs really would ... kill him or
throw him out. It only takes one blown roll. Eventually, your PC
thief ends up dead, or he realizes that the party may not trust him,
but as underdogs and thieves learn, they may have few friends and
need any allies they can get. Hopefully PC thieves learn to be loyal
to the group and the guild, but no one else (and maybe not the guild).
If you need to convince the thief to not try to stay in town and solo, say
"Bill, this is a game for everyone and no one else wants to spend more than
15 minutes real time in town, so can you just hold off on that and later
this week I will solo you in a town adventure?"
Works for us.
John Price
The Golem (bea...@server.uwindsor.ca) wrote:
: On 28 May 1995, Steven C wrote:
: >
: > about a discussion on favorite spells? Most worthless spells? Top 10
: What justification for killing PC thieves? I'd like to hear some myself.
: I usually play thieves.
I don't usually need justification. Good thieves are nice to have around,
bad thieves kill themselves.
("my 5th level thief is going to raid the necromancers tower!")
John
--
Just in case you mistake me for someone official, having an official opinion:
I'm not, and I don't.
--- --- --- ---
"Quick, Chandler, Say something funny! <chandler stares>" -- Friends
(the world's best *No Liner* goes to chandler)
Kevin Langley
: existance), Defiling damage that goes beyond plants. So he got killed in
^^^^^^^^^^
: the Prism Pentad? He had enemies that were above 20th level easy, and he
: powerful when the greatest of great wyrms was in diapers.
Elminster had access to 10th level spells back when Myth Drannor
was being created. As did several other mages that were 41st level or
above. This was all before the gods took 10th level magic away from the
mortals though. This is all mentioned in _Ruins of Myth Drannor_ boxed
set. Its an excellent set IMO for histories and for new spells.
JOHN E WOLFENBARGER
>From: ujc...@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Jason Choi)
>Subject: Re: Raistlin Vs.Drizzt
>Date: 27 May 1995 18:06:37 GMT
>: Hmmm...don't really know. I was kinda wondering who'd win : with
>Raistlin vs. Elminster, Elminster vs. Halister, Elminster or : Blackstaff
>vs. Raistlin?
> To me its obvious,Raistlin. Elminster & Blackstaff seemingly
>were just created 25th lvl mages blah blah blah,no real depths to their
>cunning or intellect as Raistlin.As stated in the previous posting
>Raist had the power to challenge the queen herself.
>Jas
Then again, Elminster is a demi-god, able to come back again and again, so who
knows?
Lupo!
Ben K Krauskopf
>are not appropriate in this genre. I do like to see
>locksmith is a personal favorite archetype for a rouge that fits in a
>heroic campaign. I hate to see (the most common, in my experiences) the
>"cutpurse" or the "burglar". Suited more to the city campaign (which I
>have run) these types are a bane on the heroic campaign. They would
>rather stay in town and pick the pockets/raid the homes of nobles instead
>of earn an "honest" living by dungeon dwelling.
>
cutpurse type thieves in high adventure campaigns in their books (Talen and
Jimmy the Hand).
I personaly am running a cutpurse type thief in a campaign right now. We
haven't really defined the style of the campaign yet. This theif has grown
up (at least tohis current age of 13) on the streets. He is now trying to
rise above the streets and petty crime. He has the cutpurse kit, but his
PERSONALITY makes him different. He hangs out with the party for a number
of reasons. One of which is that he things that being with them will help
him to learn to do things differently.
He is avoiding stealing from people for the most part (and never from the
party). He is learning skills that he would have never learned on the
streets (literacy for one.). He is instead looking for ways to apply his
own talents in a way that will allow him to make a living and avoid the
dungeons. He is turning into somthing of a dungeon/scout type thief
because of this.
I have seen too many people create characters that should fit into whatever
is being done quite well only to have them play them badly or steer them in
such a way that they don't fit or just plain look stupid.
Ben Krauskopf
bkk...@tam2000.tamu.edu
Evan T. Kaiser
they presently only exist on Athas. (However, in the Elves of Evermeet
handbook, it implies in the section about the high magi that there are,
in fact, wizard spells above 9th level!) So the comparison is unfair. Also,
if what my friend told me was correct, the Dragon reached his final form
not through the normal level advancement but because that halfling dude who
was the first mage on Athas used some gigantic spell to make him that way.
If you look in the Dragon Kings supplement, the process of getting all the
way to 30th level dragon is quite arduous. Even among the present dragon-
kings, who have all been around for quite a while, the most powerful among
them is the Shadow King of Nibenay, who is but 22nd level. Not that this is
weak, but he's been around for thousands of years himself and is only this
far. When you look at the experience point comparison between him and El,
I think (but am not certain) that getting to 29th level as a mage probably
isn't much less that getting to 22nd-level dragon. And I'm also pretty
sure that El isn't thousands of years old, but only 500 or so if what I've
read is right.
Alexander Shearer
: Well, I've read few D&D novels, and only one set (the DL Chronicles) concerning
: Raistlin, but I think you have definitely underestimated Elminster's coolness
: here. True, Raist has balls, and lots of people are afraid of him, but that
: doesn't in itself make him cooler. I simply don't understand how anyone
: can find such evil characters to be so neat. But I digress. Anyway, I can't
: cite any specific things that El has done, but I know he's a bad-ass
: nonetheless. You HAVE to be a bad-ass to become a 29th+ level mage. And
: plenty of people fear him, it's just that they're almost all evil and thus
: don't get mentioned in books because it's not unusual to say that a bunch
: of weak evil people are afraid of a really powerful good person. Most of the
: wizards in the conclave are wussies compared to their counterparts in the
: Forgotten Realms anyway. Taking on a Dragonlance god is not the same thing as
: taking on a god from another realm, since they are comparably much weaker if I
: remember what I read from the DL boxed set correctly. Not to mention killable by
: mortals, it seems. El shows up to lots of places to kick ass, and if it comes down to
: getting chicks, Elminster gets LOTS of awesome females (human, elven, half-elven, and
: even drow) ALL THE TIME, not just one.
: Evan T. Kaiser
: Northwestern University, Evanston, IL. USA
: core...@nwu.edu
I think the real problem is mood. I've read both DL and FR books,
and have to note: FR books attempt to follow AD&D rules...DL books scrap
them. Thus, in transition to listed stats, DL gods and chars do blow
(especially since they haven't received nearly the updating FR stuff
has). However, I refuse to believe the DL gods are weaker than those in
FR...sheesh - presentation alone. It just strikes me like this:
FR Gods: Greek-style squabbling children...lots of power, yes, but not
tremendous (come on - think how long Cyric survived under ban of Magic by
Mystra/Midnight).
DL Gods: Cosmic diety level - not just gods, but embodiments of good and
evil. Just because they made the mistake of writing stats for them in
the DL book, don't think /all/ they can do is tremendous amounts of damage.
Similarly, Raistlin is an obvious wimp if you go by listed stats.
Fortunately, he is so much not a part of AD&D rules that he works as a
character (note: he went to black robes for more power /later/ in his
career - look at the DL Adventures book and TRY to justify that by the
rules).
I have read a lot about Raistlin, and a lot about Elminster, and that
leads to my final words here:
Raistlin: Plot device, developed character.
Elminster: Plot device, undeveloped ego-trip (for whichever author has
him at the time).
Someone had delusions of Gandalf when they made Elminster.
Alex Shearer
ga...@netcom.com
(Come to think of it, that'd be Ed Greenwood, wouldn't it?)
'Sir John' J T Calkins
In most campaigns somebody will probably deciede to play a rogue
(thief) charecter. Instead of taking out a vendeta on the charecter
make them take a non-evil alignment and then make sure that they
stay in charecter. It seems to me that the charecter is not the problem
but the way that they are being played is. Player charecter strife
such as stealing from other PCs or attacking other PC's
(unless meant in a humourous manner like pouring itching powder down
their backs or tieing up the cook because all that he brought was gruel)
is not allowed and players that really want harm the party are politely
asked to find another game.
The main problem in role playing often is the definition of alignments.
Alignments don't have to be so tight and constraining
that people have to keep changing alignment. How about changing the
definitions of the alignments so that they are both better defined and
more flexible:
LG: A believer in law and order, a follower of what the common man
considers good, but in no way required to be a goody two shoes. An honest
and charitable merchant, a honorable knight, and a mage dedicating his
life to helping people (within the limits of the law) all count as LG.
Still these people can be rude or impolite or down right sarcastic.
NG: People that follow the laws most of the time, but when the law is
evil they will not follow it and instead will try to change it. Still
they are the good guys and will help out people in need. A druid or ranger
trying to keep the city from cutting down her forest, a bard traveling the
lands helping people that need it but still managing to have to take off
in a hurry due to being caught in the wrong places with the wrong people,
a thief that is hired by the city to spy on other less lawful thieves.
CG: (Most common PC alignment by these rules). Don't really follow the
laws unless they feel like it at the time, but still they will assist
people in trouble and are sometimes the most useful people to ask for
help because they aren't constrained by common law. Still these people
have their own code of conduct that make them honorable and good, even if
it is by standards not usual followed. A barbarian warrior trying to
survive in the big city (kind to people weaker than he is but also
totally unable to comprehend why attacking people who insult him is a bad
thing), a rogue that wants to help people but due to things in his past
is unable to legally help, a noble that is against the current king's
reign, but isn't revoluting because of all the people the revolution
would harm.
LN: No real care for good or evil, but strictly follows the law or
orders. Most common citizens and soldiers fall in to this catagory, but a
knight weary of fighting for good/evil and instead pledging herself to
follow a king's orders, or a mage working under king's orders to keep the
kingdom from fallings apart both fit this catagory.
True Neutral: Those people that believe that everything needs to balance
in the end. Karma, or whatever needs to stay balanced and they need
not only to keep it balanced within themselves but in the world around
them. A druid trying to allow the forest to change without letting it be
destroyed, a bard just spending her life spreading news and happiness to
people cut off from the rest of the world or even a knight that has
nothing left to go on but his code of honor (slightly different from LN
in that he has no liege lord telling him what to do).
CN: This catagory is for those people who truely like to play insane
charecters. Although they are loyal to the party their reactions to a
situation depending on how they are feeling at the moment. A wild mage
that casts spells in hope that the wild surges will be pretty, a
lizardman warrior that thinks that he is a drow and that he is immune to
magic, poison, etc., or even a warrior who has lost everything that ever
mattered to her and now her only goal is to die, but some small part of
her keeps taking over at the last instance and saving her.
LE: (Not usually an allowed alignment for PC's) Those villians that follow
the laws or orders of an higher power, but whose goals in life are the
purssuit of bringing evil into the world. A mage who delights in killing
but is forced to follow the king's orders or a knight dedicated to
bringing down a rival king.
NE: (Not usually an allowed alignment for PC's) These people follow the laws
most of the time but delight in twisting them to evil purposes. A
corrupt chancellor trying to undermine the king, or a crime lord striving
to stay "technicallly" legal.
CE: (Not an allowed alignment for PC's) The really cruddy people
who go out of their way to ruin everybodies lives and seem to really
enjoy suffering and inflicting pain. I can't think of an PC ideas for
this, but I'm sure somebody else can.
If you have read this over and want to know more about feel free to post
onto the list and I'll get back to you or write me direct at
<sir...@u.washington.edu>.
"Watch your back, shoot straight, conserve ammo,
and never ever cut a deal with a dragon."
<Sooner or later I'll think of something else.>
Copyright, 1995, Johnathon Calkins. All Rights Reserved.
Sir John
<sir...@u.washington.edu>
Lewis Beard
: them. Thus, in transition to listed stats, DL gods and chars do blow
: (especially since they haven't received nearly the updating FR stuff
: has). However, I refuse to believe the DL gods are weaker than those in
: FR...sheesh - presentation alone. It just strikes me like this:
I disagree. The FR books totally ignore rules on characters like Drizzt
and others. Often times things happen that cant happen in the AD&D rules,
but they do it to advance the story.
The difference is that the DL are High Fantasy; no worrying about catching
colds or going to the bathroom or gray areas between good and evil
(well, usually). It's all action, fun, superheroics, and Gods that
represent the essence of good and evil. In fact, it is that way because
within a given crystal sphere, the gods are free to set up whatever
they want in their sphere, relative to interference and agreed-upon
rules by other deities in that sphere.
FR is a little less high fantasy.
: FR Gods: Greek-style squabbling children...lots of power, yes, but not
: tremendous (come on - think how long Cyric survived under ban of Magic by
: Mystra/Midnight).
Magic is one of many forces; just because one god places a ban and another
is screwed over by it doesnt mean the gods are wimps ... it just means
that the 2 gods in question are on the same relative power level.
: DL Gods: Cosmic diety level - not just gods, but embodiments of good and
: evil. Just because they made the mistake of writing stats for them in
: the DL book, don't think /all/ they can do is tremendous amounts of damage.
I think your favoritism for the series makes you think that. It IS
high fantasy, so the gods are more embodiments of good and evil, but
the DL Adventures and Spelljammer and other stuff implies that,
while the most powerful beings perhaps, and embodiments of good and evil
perhaps, the Krynn GODS kick out or kill anyone who exceeds a certain level
of power if they can, because once you attain level 20 ... hello, you
become like unto a god. That's the way their universe works. So they kick
out or kill people that reach those levels (the gods do).
The FR and other books say high powered Krynn refugees sometimes come to the
FR or other spheres.
: Similarly, Raistlin is an obvious wimp if you go by listed stats.
: Fortunately, he is so much not a part of AD&D rules that he works as a
: character (note: he went to black robes for more power /later/ in his
: career - look at the DL Adventures book and TRY to justify that by the
: rules).
For one thing, going black lets him do things and perform actions he
couldnt as a red robe. Also, i think there are a LOT of black-only
spells that rock. Besides, the freedom to do anything he wants in terms
of unscrupulousness IS powerful.
In Krynn, when you get to Raistlin's eventual power level, it puts you
in the arena with other gods .. and raistlin proved more powerful than
they. Outside of krynn, tho, he would lose his godly mantle and be
just a level 20 MU. or whatever. If you took a krynn god out, it
would be about the same. :)
: I have read a lot about Raistlin, and a lot about Elminster, and that
: leads to my final words here:
: Raistlin: Plot device, developed character.
Developed?! hahahahah!!! I am evil. All the other wizard kids
tease me, and I cough and no one understands me and I'm driven to
evil because I'm weak and I cough and it's my destiny. Surely, some
of you boys and girls out there can identify with me? Buy my books?
-Raistlin
: Elminster: Plot device, undeveloped ego-trip (for whichever author has
: him at the time).
Well, I will give you that Elminster does seem to be a sorcerous extension
of Ed Greenwood's male member in the more recent books ... seemingly.
But I think El has achieved more.
: Someone had delusions of Gandalf when they made Elminster.
And someone had delusions of character depth when they first coughed
up Raistlin onto the stage.
Dont get me wrong, I think El is kinda cheezy too .... I just think
Raistlin is equally cheezy and the more sappy high fantasy style
of Krynn makes the characters even more sterile.
All IMO.
Neal Dutta
>LN: No real care for good or evil, but strictly follows the law or
>orders. Most common citizens and soldiers fall in to this catagory, but a
>knight weary of fighting for good/evil and instead pledging herself to
>follow a king's orders, or a mage working under king's orders to keep the
>kingdom from fallings apart both fit this catagory.
>
Well I wouldn't say most common citizens would fall under this alignment...
most people generally follow the law, but who doesn't bend the rules in small
ways occasionally?
>True Neutral: Those people that believe that everything needs to balance
>in the end. Karma, or whatever needs to stay balanced and they need
>not only to keep it balanced within themselves but in the world around
>them. A druid trying to allow the forest to change without letting it be
>destroyed, a bard just spending her life spreading news and happiness to
>people cut off from the rest of the world or even a knight that has
>nothing left to go on but his code of honor (slightly different from LN
>in that he has no liege lord telling him what to do).
>
Well I really don't see why True Neutrals all have to be philosophers
believing in some world balance (though of course they can be). Seems to a
lot of TNs are simply practical people who really don't have any strong
ideological leaning, who just go through their lives dealing with situations
on an individual basis. They see a purpose in laws and organization, but
aren't above "bending" the law on occasion. They can be nice enough people
(or not) to talk to and associate with, but they don't go out of their way to
help out strangers (family and friends could be different). They simply don't
get involved unless they have some personal reason or goal to do it. P
>CN: This catagory is for those people who truely like to play insane
>charecters. Although they are loyal to the party their reactions to a
>situation depending on how they are feeling at the moment. A wild mage
>that casts spells in hope that the wild surges will be pretty, a
>lizardman warrior that thinks that he is a drow and that he is immune to
>magic, poison, etc., or even a warrior who has lost everything that ever
>mattered to her and now her only goal is to die, but some small part of
>her keeps taking over at the last instance and saving her.
>
Well CNs don't HAVE to be insane. Though I must admit, they should be at the
very least rather eccentric. :-).
>LE: (Not usually an allowed alignment for PC's) Those villians that follow
>the laws or orders of an higher power, but whose goals in life are the
>purssuit of bringing evil into the world. A mage who delights in killing
>but is forced to follow the king's orders or a knight dedicated to
>bringing down a rival king.
>
>NE: (Not usually an allowed alignment for PC's) These people follow the laws
>most of the time but delight in twisting them to evil purposes. A
>corrupt chancellor trying to undermine the king, or a crime lord striving
>to stay "technicallly" legal.
This definition seems better sutied to LE. NE's are people who have some
belief in organization and laws, but if they think it will benefit them in the
long run they'll break the rules.
ElMinstr(On IRC)
>>: Hmmm...don't really know. I was kinda wondering who'd win : with
>>vs. Raistlin?
>>were just created 25th lvl mages blah blah blah,no real depths to their
>>cunning or intellect as Raistlin.As stated in the previous posting
>>Raist had the power to challenge the queen herself.
Elminster only 25th level? No DEPTH?!??! Are you kidding? You never read the
book, or read about Ed Greenwood did you? Elminster has a background that
makes most mage histories look like kids stories. His parents were killed
by a magelord on a dark red dragon when he was a boy. He left his then ruined
town to become a brigand, to leave and become a thief, to leave and become a
priestess (yes, he was a she at the time) to become a mage, and then to become
recognized as the king of Heldon, Athalantar. He was a chosen one of Mystra,
whom he fell in love with, and she fell in love with him. There's a great deal
in between. Let me know if you want more. : )
Matt Hurd
OLY Account 4 <ol...@willamette.edu> wrote:
>In article <muriean.13...@kai.ee.cit.ac.nz>,
>Andrew MURIE <mur...@kai.ee.cit.ac.nz> wrote:
>>In article <Pine.SGI.3.91.950528...@server.uwindsor.ca> The
>>Golem <bea...@server.uwindsor.ca> writes:
>>>I usually play thieves.
>>
>>
>
>I usually don't need to kill of the PC thieves. The rest of the party
>takes care of that perfectly well. Case in point:
>
[snipping the demon dudes good case and allowing space for my own to back
him up]
there was this big bad thug guy who was connected with the city thieve's guild
as their torturer and muscleman. one of the party members fighters got on the
wrong side of this guy and soon found that the thug was trying to find him.
one of the party member's thieves went to the thieves guild to do business with
some gems he aquired and got snagged by the thug who knew he was associated
with the fighter. the thief decides he can make a good profit if he sells his
information to the thug on where the fighter was hiding. the thug takes the
offer and has the thief show him where the fighter is hiding. as the thief
shows the inn the fighter is staying at one of the other party thieves (who was
acting as a lookout) spots the thug and the thief spying on the inn from an
alleyway and then he sees the thief go into the inn. the thief was to go in
and draw the fighter out for the thug. the thief instead tells the fighter and
the rest of the party that the thug was outside and here was the chance for the
fighter to kill him with the help of the party.
meanwhile the other thief tells the thug that the first thief has lead him
into a trap and so the thug gets in a different position to surprise whoever
is to come out of the inn. the second thief's intentions was to foil the first
thief's plans but instead really screwed the party over as the thug surprises
the party and nearly wipes them out and then runs off. later, both thieves
showed up at the thugs office to get their pay and boy were they surprised to
see each other there and then to see the rest of the party show up and fight
the thug and the two thieves (they were just trying to knock the two thieves
unconscious rather than kill them - so they could find out what they were doing
there)
>
>This is a long way of saying that slimy evil thieves don't do well in
>organized parties.
i hope mine shows that too.
have fun,
matt h.
--
these opinions by: matt hurd m...@wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com
"I am not a man ... I am a magician |"Come dance with the West Wind and touch
without magic, and that's no one | all the mountain tops. Sail over the
at all." - Schmendrick the Magician | canyons and up to the stars." - j. denver
Eric Dahlen
>in the arena with other gods .. and raistlin proved more powerful than
>they. Outside of krynn, tho, he would lose his godly mantle and be
>just a level 20 MU. or whatever. If you took a krynn god out, it
>would be about the same. :)
And the same goes for Elminster and the Forgotten Realms gods.. unless
there is some 'special rule' for Forgotton Realms....
>Developed?! hahahahah!!! I am evil. All the other wizard kids
>tease me, and I cough and no one understands me and I'm driven to
>evil because I'm weak and I cough and it's my destiny. Surely, some
>of you boys and girls out there can identify with me? Buy my books?
> -Raistlin
I must've missed that section.. can you please tell me where to find it?
Eric Dahlen <er...@jlc.net>
----------
Rimmer: "What happens to naughty boys who've been naughty, Mr Flibble?"
Mr Flibble: "Uncle Arnie fries them alive with his Hex Vision."
Eric Dahlen
Silk is definately the best thief around.. very cool.
John Sutherland
: Well, I've read few D&D novels, and only one set (the DL Chronicles) concerning
: Raistlin, but I think you have definitely underestimated Elminster's coolness
: here. True, Raist has balls, and lots of people are afraid of him, but that
: doesn't in itself make him cooler. I simply don't understand how anyone
: can find such evil characters to be so neat. But I digress. Anyway, I can't
: cite any specific things that El has done, but I know he's a bad-ass
: nonetheless. You HAVE to be a bad-ass to become a 29th+ level mage. And
The reason you can't remember any specific cool examples of
Elminster, is because there are NONE!!!
: plenty of people fear him, it's just that they're almost all evil and thus
: don't get mentioned in books because it's not unusual to say that a bunch
: of weak evil people are afraid of a really powerful good person. Most of the
: wizards in the conclave are wussies compared to their counterparts in the
: Forgotten Realms anyway. Taking on a Dragonlance god is not the same thing as
: taking on a god from another realm, since they are comparably much weaker if I
: remember what I read from the DL boxed set correctly.
Maybe the boxed set shows them to be weaker, but in the 1st Ed.
rulebook, The Dark Queen has 999 hit points, and 7 attacks of 1-1000
each. Not to mention breath weapons, etc. (Although I find the numbers
a trifle unrealistic, if Raist took on Takhisis with these stats, he must
be one tough mother, IMNSHO)
Drew
--
=========================================================
+ +
+ "Men are that they might have joy" +
+ -2 Nephi 2:25 +
+ "I want to be as much of a man as legally possible!" +
+ -Drew Sutherland +
+ <jsut...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> +
=========================================================
Evan T. Kaiser
>
>Evan T. Kaiser (core...@nwu.edu) wrote:
>
>: Well, I've read few D&D novels, and only one set (the DL Chronicles) concerning
>: Raistlin, but I think you have definitely underestimated Elminster's coolness
>: here. True, Raist has balls, and lots of people are afraid of him, but that
>: doesn't in itself make him cooler. I simply don't understand how anyone
>: can find such evil characters to be so neat. But I digress. Anyway, I can't
>: cite any specific things that El has done, but I know he's a bad-ass
>: nonetheless. You HAVE to be a bad-ass to become a 29th+ level mage. And
>
> The reason you can't remember any specific cool examples of
>Elminster, is because there are NONE!!!
>
at all. The only thing I can think of that I've read with El in it is the
introductory short story at the beginning of the Eye of the Beholder III
instruction manual. There, El takes some lowly half-elven ranger who's
mother is now an arch-lich to Myth Drannor, where she resides. While he
waits on a rock, it says that El is quite bored and totally unafraid of
his surroundings. Now, I don't know much about Myth Drannor either, but I
do know that it ain't a safe place for anybody, even archmages.
>
>: plenty of people fear him, it's just that they're almost all evil and thus
>: don't get mentioned in books because it's not unusual to say that a bunch
>: of weak evil people are afraid of a really powerful good person. Most of the
>: wizards in the conclave are wussies compared to their counterparts in the
>: Forgotten Realms anyway. Taking on a Dragonlance god is not the same thing as
>: taking on a god from another realm, since they are comparably much weaker if I
>: remember what I read from the DL boxed set correctly.
>
> Maybe the boxed set shows them to be weaker, but in the 1st Ed.
>rulebook, The Dark Queen has 999 hit points, and 7 attacks of 1-1000
>each. Not to mention breath weapons, etc. (Although I find the numbers
>a trifle unrealistic, if Raist took on Takhisis with these stats, he must
>be one tough mother, IMNSHO)
>
quite pathetic for a greater goddess if you think about it). If you use
the rules, Takhisis would always win initiative since she's a god fighting
a mortal and there's no way Raist could win. Not to say that Raist isn't
awesome for his campaign world, but he's not that awsome compared to El.
>Drew
>
>--
>=========================================================
>+ +
>+ "Men are that they might have joy" +
>+ -2 Nephi 2:25 +
>+ "I want to be as much of a man as legally possible!" +
>+ -Drew Sutherland +
>+ <jsut...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> +
>=========================================================
Evan T. Kaiser
Lewis Beard
: >In Krynn, when you get to Raistlin's eventual power level, it puts you
: >in the arena with other gods .. and raistlin proved more powerful than
: >they. Outside of krynn, tho, he would lose his godly mantle and be
: >just a level 20 MU. or whatever. If you took a krynn god out, it
: >would be about the same. :)
: And the same goes for Elminster and the Forgotten Realms gods.. unless
: there is some 'special rule' for Forgotton Realms....
Elminster would only lose the special abilities Mystra gives him ... i.e.
unaging and immunity to disease and an 25 con. :) Otherwise, he would
be a legitimate level 29 magic user. Also, some gods DO have powers
outside their crystal spheres, but I dont think Mystra is one of them.
However i think Tyr is. But the Krynn gods are self-encapsulated
by their own choice anyway. They dont WANT outside contamination and
they dont want to fool with the outside .. or so it seems.
So if via spelljamming Elminster and Raistlin met on the Rock of Bral,
it'd be 29 vs 20 or whatever.
: >Developed?! hahahahah!!! I am evil. All the other wizard kids
: >tease me, and I cough and no one understands me and I'm driven to
: >evil because I'm weak and I cough and it's my destiny. Surely, some
: >of you boys and girls out there can identify with me? Buy my books?
: > -Raistlin
: I must've missed that section.. can you please tell me where to find it?
I'm just talking about every single scene Raistlin is in. All the
whining and the thinly veiled appeal to "teen angst".
Dru A Smith
Lewis Beard <le...@myhost.subdomain.domain> wrote:
>Eric Dahlen (er...@news.jlc.net) wrote:
>: >In Krynn, when you get to Raistlin's eventual power level, it puts you
>: >in the arena with other gods .. and raistlin proved more powerful than
>: >they. Outside of krynn, tho, he would lose his godly mantle and be
>: >just a level 20 MU. or whatever. If you took a krynn god out, it
>: >would be about the same. :)
>
>: there is some 'special rule' for Forgotton Realms....
>
>Elminster would only lose the special abilities Mystra gives him ... i.e.
>unaging and immunity to disease and an 25 con. :) Otherwise, he would
>be a legitimate level 29 magic user. Also, some gods DO have powers
>outside their crystal spheres, but I dont think Mystra is one of them.
>However i think Tyr is. But the Krynn gods are self-encapsulated
>by their own choice anyway. They dont WANT outside contamination and
>they dont want to fool with the outside .. or so it seems.
>So if via spelljamming Elminster and Raistlin met on the Rock of Bral,
>it'd be 29 vs 20 or whatever.
Sorry to butt in so late in the conversation, but this whole thing
smacks of the old "<insert name> versus Gandalf" argument. There is
NO way to compare Gandalf to an AD&D mage. Why? Because the magic
systems are so radically different that you can't categorize Gandalf
by AD&D rules.
Now, on the same note, I'd also have to say that Raistlin (and
Krynn in general) was the first example we had of a NON-AD&D mage.
Bitch all you like, but Krynn does not follow the standard rules
of AD&D. In AD&D you have no dependence on the moon phases for
casting. Additionally, the spell progressions are different, depending
on your alignment.
The point: Raistlin's power level is NOT something that can be
categorized by AD&D rules. I don't know anything about Elminster's
world, but if it is typical of TSR, it will have it's own rules
and magic laws. (It seems that everything besides Greyhawk has to
have its own magic system).
In effect, you are comparing apples to oranges.
You can strip away all of the world-specific stuff, but that won't
help, because a "mage vs mage" battle has to take place somewhere.
Who's world will it be? Or will it be a neutral site?
The battlefield alone is a major consideration, so why isn't that
being discussed in as much detail?
Not that I don't like the mage-battle discussions, but it just
seems that if you're going to do it, at least specify a battlefield,
and make sure that the rules of a world-specific mage leaving his/her
own world have been clearly identified. (i.e. does it SAY in one of
the Dragonlance rules books what happens to a Krynn mage who goes
to Oerth, or goes to Athas, or Mystara, etc?)
Dru smith
----------------------------------------------------------------
"...all life is only a set of pictures in the brain, among which
there is no difference betwixt those born of real things and
those born of inward dreamings, and no cause to value the one
above the other"
-- H.P. Lovecraft, The Silver Key
pla...@delphi.com
>We might as well bring this thread to its most ridiculous conclusion
>by wondering aloud... who would win? Raistlin .vs. A Star Destroyer
>from Star Wars. (Check out those lame threads on rec.arts.startrek.*
>and rec.games.mecha). ;-)
all these weird speculations are completely w/o the maturity of a context --
e.g. circumstances at the start of the supposed conflict. Drizzt with full
weaponry walking in on Raistlinno inkling of a problem (surprise) or otherwise
coming to short range cl
eans up. Raistlin inside a Star Destroyer without Darth Vader cleans up.
Raistlin teleported by surprise to a point in open space at 100km never knows a
battle could take place before exploding in vapor. Form a complete question
next time.
