Concerned Parent
PTAMom Kim
I do not play your game, Dragons and Dungeons, but my 13 year old son just
started playing this game a few months ago. Let me start by stating that I
consider myself to be a open minded suburban mom, but this game is starting to
worry me. When our son started playing the game it did not really bother me too
much, but now things have gotten worse. He plays it as much as he can and his
school work has started to suffer, and what's worse, his attitude has grown
more withdrawn. He now spends all of his time reading his books and rolling
dice all the time. I just don't understand it.
I have asked him to talk about the game and tell me what he is doing, but
he does not say much about it except that they kill monsters and steal
treasure. So I have taken it upon myself as his parent to find out if this game
is harmful to his mental well being. I have done a bit of research, and talked
to the pastor at our church about this game, and what I have found is not good!
First of all I found out about a movie made back in 1983 that told the
story of a group of people that played the Dragons and Dungeons game, it was
called Mazes and Monsters. In this movie they showed how the game makes people
have delusions and how the game is harmful to ones mental health. Also, I found
out that the young boy in Oregon who killed his parents with a shotgunplayed
this game. And then there was that group of kids down in Mississippi that
belonged to a secret cult that played this role playing game. They would kill
animals and mutilate the bodies. I am afraid that if I dont take action and
confiscate all my sons books, he will be the next one to follow in this path.
His attitude is really bad lately, and I think Dragon and Dungeons is the
culprit and motivating factor for his odd behavior.
I will not allow this game to poison the minds of our youth with all this
killing, raping, pillaging, and looting that you people fantasize about when
you are playing this game. The church group we belong to takes this game as an
assault to good decent American values. Please don't play this game any more
because it is really bad and you don't even know it. You are all too wrapped up
in your own fantasy worlds to see the harm that it is doing to you. But it is
evil, I have seen this in just the few months our son has played Dragons and
Dungeons. God Help all of you.
Sincerely,
Kim Trullinger
Caine's Devoted Slaves
Please don't play this game any more
>because it is really bad and you don't even know it. You are all too
wrapped up
>in your own fantasy worlds to see the harm that it is doing to you. But it
is
>evil, I have seen this in just the few months our son has played Dragons
and
>Dungeons. God Help all of you.
>
>Sincerely,
>Kim Trullinger
>
Which of the elder gods are you talking about?
Severion8
>story of a group of people that played the Dragons and Dungeons game, it was
>called Mazes and Monsters.
The actual event that this movie was based upon was sensationalized and is what
started the whole AD&D bashing of the 80's. The boy ran away from a crappy home
life, nothing more. The rest of your examples were probably more of the same
or drug related.
>His attitude is really bad lately, and I think Dragon and Dungeons is the
>culprit and motivating factor for his odd behavior.
it could also be the croud he's hanging out with or he may be just looking for
attention.
> I will not allow this game to poison the minds of our youth with all this
>killing, raping, pillaging, and looting that you people fantasize about when
>you are playing this game.
That is just another ignorant steriotype, i know of no groups that view these
things in a positive light (except maybe our own flame-master Stevil).
>Please don't play this game any more
>because it is really bad and you don't even know it. You are all too wrapped
>up
>in your own fantasy worlds to see the harm that it is doing to you.
i'm happily married, in a christian relationship, i have a job and own my own
house. what possable damage could i be doing to myself
.> But it is
>evil, I have seen this in just the few months our son has played Dragons and
>Dungeons. God Help all of you.
in the 15 years i have played this game i have helped friends of mine out of
bad relationships, criminal tendencies, illitracy, and possable gang
affiliations. God knows we all try.
Sincerly
Severion
Hey linus, your security blanket is killing you.
Kael Greyhawke
-- Kael
--------------------------------------------------
email: webm...@greyhawke.net
webpage: http://www.greyhawke.net
Talen
the swamp, pretending to be a wolf in sheeps clothing, only it's actually a
shapechanged wizard who has a cursed ring that makes him look like a black
dragon and then polymorphed into a troll...
Of course, I could be wrong...
Chris McDaniel
Kael Greyhawke wrote in message <76nbpt$cgr$0...@207.14.62.86>...
Agent86
> Hello,
>
> I do not play your game, Dragons and Dungeons, but my 13 year old son just
> started playing this game a few months ago.
1. at 13 kids are very impressionable and tend to obsess over interests, I myself
spent countless hours playing nintendo and talking on the phone. If a 13 year old
finds a means of escape from the hum-drum of normal life they tend to spend allot
of time on that thing for some its books, others the Telephone and some AD&D
2. with an estimated number of players at about 4 million people, BADD (bothered
about Dungeons and dragons) reports an average 7 suicides/Shooting deaths due to
AD&D per year. the national suicide expectancy rate for those 4 million is about
500 people. Just because some waco who played the game freaked out and shot him mom
doesn't mean it is because of the game. Things like that happen if they play or
not.
3. There are 2 documented cases in which people who HAPPENED to play D&D did
questionable acts (one committed
suicide, the other (a group) committed murder). In both cases, the gamers were
also social outcasts and cocaine addicts,
and had been so before beginning gaming. The second case is notable because
they made a movie about it ("Cruel
Doubt", I think), and because the kids (high school seniors, I believe)
actually tried to claim the /game/ had warped their
minds. Sorta like the twinkie defense, I guess.
3a .Rona Jaffe's "Mazes & Monsters", a book VERY LOOSELY based on 3's case. In
this book, a whole slew of
folks who game together have their lives ruined, and one commits suicide. The
book uses the fictional game M&M as a
linking element for their individual problems, but for the most part, the game
gets blamed by readers. Many people
believe this story really happened, and are adamant about it.
4. I personally have been D&D for 4 years and I have never fantasized about
"killing, raping, pillaging, and looting" What I have done is called ROLE PLAYING
it is a grown up form of "make Believe" a group of 3-8 persons gather around a
table. 1 person the GM (Game Master) Tells a story from the players point of view.
the other 2-7 people are the PC's(player characters) they sit around the table and
respond to the story and shape the what their imagined people react to it. In my
group allot of laughing and socializing goes on during and after the games and it
basically is just a fun time. not the Satanic games most people imagine them as.
about the most evil thing about this game is the pizza heartburn.
Before you bash the game try to learn from first hand experience what you are
bashing.
Agent 86
-----
3 was a direct quote from the AFU&Urban Legends Archive
http://www.urbanlegends.com/death/dungeons_and_dragons.html
Pat
Pat
pat...@aye.net
ICQ:403111
"Don't think! Just pick up that phone, and make it happen!"
Scully, The X-Files
AstaeGloss
PTAMom Kim <ptam...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19990103031455...@ng-fp1.aol.com>...
> Hello,
> <much Snippage>
>
> I will not allow this game to poison the minds of our youth with all
this
> killing, raping, pillaging, and looting that you people fantasize about
when
> you are playing this game. The church group we belong to takes this game
as an
> assault to good decent American values. Please don't play this game any
more
> because it is really bad and you don't even know it. You are all too
wrapped up
> in your own fantasy worlds to see the harm that it is doing to you. But
it is
> evil, I have seen this in just the few months our son has played Dragons
and
> Dungeons. God Help all of you.
>
> Sincerely,
> Kim Trullinger
>
>
"Trulling"..."trolling"? Nah. Too obvious ;-)
Keith Davies
> I do not play your game, Dragons and Dungeons, but my 13 year old son just
>started playing this game a few months ago. Let me start by stating that I
>consider myself to be a open minded suburban mom, but this game is starting to
>worry me. When our son started playing the game it did not really bother me too
>much, but now things have gotten worse. He plays it as much as he can and his
>school work has started to suffer, and what's worse, his attitude has grown
>more withdrawn. He now spends all of his time reading his books and rolling
>dice all the time. I just don't understand it.
Hello Kim,
He's 13, you say? Many thirteen year olds become withdrawn - their
bodies are going through massive changes, their roles in the family
and at school are changing, there are large social changes in their
lives at this time. Whether it is AD&D or something else, he's
probably not acting much more differently than he would be anyway.
People who take up a new hobby tend to be fairly enthusiastic about
it; when I learned to program I would spend almost all my time at a
computer, whether at school or at home. When I fished regularly I
spent a fair amount of time tying flies - poorly, in case you're
wondering :)
When gaming, your son is socializing with his friends - they're
spending time together, being creative, creating a story together.
Beats playing with Nintendo or Sega any day, to my mind.
> I have asked him to talk about the game and tell me what he is doing, but
>he does not say much about it except that they kill monsters and steal
>treasure. So I have taken it upon myself as his parent to find out if this game
>is harmful to his mental well being. I have done a bit of research, and talked
>to the pastor at our church about this game, and what I have found is not good!
At a simple, beginning level, the game tends to be that way. It's
easy to understand - kill the bad guys and gain rewards. As maturity
sets in the game changes. I know of many people, both personally and
through USENET, whose campaigns (shared stories, if you will) are
focused about as far away from combat and whatnot as you can get. In
many cases roleplaying is much the same as acting - although there
tends to be no script and no stage; it all takes place in the mind. I
wouldn't be any more concerned about it than if he had joined the
Drama Club at school.
His view of the game is at this time somewhat limited. He hasn't
gained enough experience to understand the underlying ideas behind the
game - the imagination and cooperation in a shared world that can
create a wonderful story. That will come in time, and he will grow
because of it.
I can understand your concern for his well-being. D&D has had a great
deal of bad press (see below for more) and it is a pastime that is
quite 'alien' to most people experiences. You don't understand it,
and you want to learn more. I commend you for that; you are concerned
for your son and want to be sure that he will not be harmed. I don't
think there's anything to worry about, mind, but you are acting as a
parent should :)
> First of all I found out about a movie made back in 1983 that told the
>story of a group of people that played the Dragons and Dungeons game, it was
>called Mazes and Monsters. In this movie they showed how the game makes people
>have delusions and how the game is harmful to ones mental health. Also, I found
>out that the young boy in Oregon who killed his parents with a shotgunplayed
>this game. And then there was that group of kids down in Mississippi that
>belonged to a secret cult that played this role playing game. They would kill
>animals and mutilate the bodies. I am afraid that if I dont take action and
>confiscate all my sons books, he will be the next one to follow in this path.
>His attitude is really bad lately, and I think Dragon and Dungeons is the
>culprit and motivating factor for his odd behavior.
As mentioned above, there is a large amount of bad press about D&D.
I'm afraid I don't have any references handy (I can probably track
them down), but pretty much all the major stories about bad things
happening 'because' of D&D have been refuted - that these people
played D&D was a coincidence. How many kids who *didn't* play D&D
have killed their parents? I went to school with one - killed his
mother because she wouldn't let him see his girlfriend.
There was a case (anyone know the particulars - like the person's
*name*?) around 1980 where D&D was blamed for this young man killing
himself. That he was having difficulty with his homosexuality and had
some serious drug problems *obviously* couldn't have had anything to
do with it.
Studies (however much you trust them) have shown that gamers tend to,
as a group, average saner than the general public. Regardless of how
strange we seem or how oddly we act :)
If you like, I will see if I can find the relevant references.
Hopefully someone in this newsgroup knows them offhand, as otherwise
it could mean a lot of work, but I'll see what I can do.
As I said above, your son's odd behavior could well be explained by
puberty - we were *all* a little strange then.
> I will not allow this game to poison the minds of our youth with all this
>killing, raping, pillaging, and looting that you people fantasize about when
>you are playing this game. The church group we belong to takes this game as an
>assault to good decent American values. Please don't play this game any more
>because it is really bad and you don't even know it. You are all too wrapped up
>in your own fantasy worlds to see the harm that it is doing to you. But it is
>evil, I have seen this in just the few months our son has played Dragons and
>Dungeons. God Help all of you.
I disagree about the harm in it. Personally, I don't 'fantasize' (as
you mean it) about the things that happen in my game. Yes, they are
'fantasy' in that they are not real, but it is a story. I can imagine
the scenes and interactions, but I certainly wouldn't want to be in it
for real.
As far as killing, raping, pillaging, and looting are concerned, there
isn't much of that in my campaign. Raping, pillaging, and looting are
more or less restricted to the evil ones - the ones the players are
trying to defeat. The player characters in my campaign tend to be
very reluctant to kill, although they will when it is necessary. For
the most part they have a role similar to that of the police - they
try to protect the innocent around them. I'm about as far away from
fantasizing about the acts you described - looting and pillaging don't
interest me in the least, and I feel that a rapist is one of the few
people who deserve killing.
As for being wrapped up in my fantasy world, I am happily married, I
have a two year old son, a steady job and friends all over *this*
world. These have priority, although there is some overlap between
categories (I have several friends who game, for instance).
Keith
-- [posted and mailed]
Keith Davies
kjda...@bc.sympatico.ca
Lashiec V
>
> I do not play your game, Dragons and Dungeons, but my 13 year old son
>just
>started playing this game a few months ago. Let me start by stating that I
>consider myself to be a open minded suburban mom, but this game is starting
>to
>worry me. When our son started playing the game it did not really bother me
>too
>much, but now things have gotten worse. He plays it as much as he can and his
>school work has started to suffer, and what's worse, his attitude has grown
>more withdrawn. He now spends all of his time reading his books and rolling
>dice all the time. I just don't understand it.
At the time I was at this age my grades were pretty shabby, I was very suicidal
and I would pretty much lash out at whom ever crossed my path. When I started
playing D&D it got me away from the people who were causeing these influences,
the game required me to acutally think(although sometimes I still dont) and my
grades did improve, expecialy in english and math, which are now 2 of my
strongest subjects, which I do credit the game for helping with(spelling is a
completly different thing though).
>First of all I found out about a movie made back in 1983 that told the
>story of a group of people that played the Dragons and Dungeons game, it was
>called Mazes and Monsters. In this movie they showed how the game makes
>people
>have delusions and how the game is harmful to ones mental health. Also, I
>found
>out that the young boy in Oregon who killed his parents with a shotgunplayed
>this game. And then there was that group of kids down in Mississippi that
>belonged to a secret cult that played this role playing game. They would kill
>animals and mutilate the bodies. I am afraid that if I dont take action and
>confiscate all my sons books, he will be the next one to follow in this path.
>His attitude is really bad lately, and I think Dragon and Dungeons is the
>culprit and motivating factor for his odd behavior.
I remember a movie called Last Temptation of Jesus. Jesus had sex in it if I
remember correctly. So consider what you take from hollywood for a basis for an
opion.> I will not allow this game to poison the minds of our youth with all
this
>killing, raping, pillaging, and looting that you people fantasize about when
>you are playing this game.
Well, if you follow the history of the christian religion they killed many
people(crusades, the witch hunts, the exploration of south america) I dont know
about raping, but I do believe they pillaged and looted(I wouldnt quote me on
that though).
>The church group we belong to takes this game as an assault to good decent
American values.
opions are like assholes, everybody has one and they all stink
.>Please don't play this game any more
>because it is really bad and you don't even know it. You are all too wrapped
>up
>in your own fantasy worlds to see the harm that it is doing to you
Well, before I got into it I was a druggie and was pretty much a teen aged
thief. And perhaps unlike you and your church I can tell the difference between
Pretend and Real life.
>But it is
>evil, I have seen this in just the few months our son has played Dragons and
>Dungeons. God Help all of you.
well I was raised souther baptist and by them paying too much attention to any
one thing, having fun(legaly that is), or pretty much having a life and opions
that are not approved by them, is what they saw as evil things. but then thats
just my personal exspirence.
Talen
>
>Before you bash the game try to learn from first hand experience what you
are
>bashing.
>Agent 86
Here Here!! Kudos to you Agent 86!
Chris McDaniel
Caine's Devoted Slaves
freaks? Must be embarrassing as hell.
--
All hail the almighty MunchkinLord!
Talen wrote in message <76ndtk$hla$1...@freddie.bitstreet.net>...
JediOfBorg
game it did not really bother me too much, but now things have gotten worse. He
plays it as much as he can and his school work has started to suffer>>
Please let me take a moment to try and clear some things up for you. I am a
member of the military and I am working towards a PhD in pyschology, in my
spare time (when available) I occasionally play D&D. What your son is
experiencing is normal to a degree. Most teenagers harbor feelings of rebellion
at this age and I assume your son is no different. If the problem is worse than
perhaps he needs help. But let me assure you that D&D is not responsible. D&D
is simply a game. Nowhere within the system/rules is there anything that turns
a good young kid into a suicidal monster. The fact is that people kill people,
not games. There are many instances when young people do things that seem
uncharacteristic and so the loved ones rush out to find a scapegoat, when in
fact, they need look no farther than their own backyard. D&D will not hurt your
son. The people he associates with may. If they play D&D it is a way they pass
the time, but it is in no way the cause for their problems. If anything, I have
found that D&D lets kids be the heros that society wants but cannot create. Let
me explain. Many people read Superman and think "Wouldn't it be nice if I could
save lives and be looked up to like that?" At 13, your son may be much the
same. What chance has he got for Super-heroism in our society? None. D&D lets
him have that fantasy in a creative way. He can save the princess like in
Sleeping Beauty, he can kill the bad villian much as Sampson did Golith. Any of
the content in D&D and/or its moduals are no more violent in terms of rape and
murder and incest than is the Bible. I have yet to read a D&D product in which
rape in depicted. If your pastor claims this happens, ask for documentation.
Many people feed the D&D hate off of specualtion or rumor. Get educated. Read
through his books with him, ask him to explain it. Sometimes people get hurt,
but there is nothing that says D&D is the cause other than coincidence. Also,
in bad cases, there are other causes associated, (i.e. drugs, alchol, parental
abuse etc). If his behavior upsets you, talk to him, work on it, but dont blame
the game. Because while you point your finger at D&D in piety, you may miss the
true reason for your son's problems.
K.R.
Rune R Christensen
<19990103031455...@ng-fp1.aol.com>...
>Hello,
>
> I do not play your game, Dragons and Dungeons, but my 13 year old son
just
>consider myself to be a open minded suburban mom, but this game is starting
to
too
>much, but now things have gotten worse. He plays it as much as he can and
his
>more withdrawn. He now spends all of his time reading his books and rolling
>dice all the time. I just don't understand it.
ATTENTION Kim Trullinger: please read all my response, don't quit because I
might be a bit harsh ar certain points. Thank you.
Let me tell you, when I first started to get into the role-playing scene my
parents were concerned too; they had heard a lot of the American hype
against role-playing, based on Mazes & Monsters and other such crap.
Surprise,surprise; I made new friends, my grades in school increased
incredibly much (from 6.2 -> 9.6, or in the American system from D -> B+).
English and History, in particular, were boosted. Math improved, too (due to
juggling dices and obscure numbers, subtraction and addtion, etc.)
> I have asked him to talk about the game and tell me what he is doing,
but
>he does not say much about it except that they kill monsters and steal
>treasure. So I have taken it upon myself as his parent to find out if this
game
>is harmful to his mental well being. I have done a bit of research, and
talked
>to the pastor at our church about this game, and what I have found is not
good!
There is so much more to the game than that. True, when young people first
get into the game they tend to focus on bloodshedding and looting. Within a
few years, however, he'll most likely find that he enjoys the story-telling
and interaction with the other players *much* more than he enjoys wielding
imaginary swords.
> First of all I found out about a movie made back in 1983 that told the
>story of a group of people that played the Dragons and Dungeons game, it
was
>called Mazes and Monsters. In this movie they showed how the game makes
people
>have delusions and how the game is harmful to ones mental health. Also, I
found
>out that the young boy in Oregon who killed his parents with a
shotgunplayed
>this game. And then there was that group of kids down in Mississippi that
>belonged to a secret cult that played this role playing game. They would
kill
>animals and mutilate the bodies.
Ummm, yes. And tell me, how many people get killed/kill themselves every
year in your country? If I remember correctly, the bodycount for the Stats
as a whole is 5000 people killed every year in gang fights. Please tell me
THAT'S not harmful to people's heads.
I am afraid that if I dont take action and
>confiscate all my sons books, he will be the next one to follow in this
path.
>His attitude is really bad lately, and I think Dragon and Dungeons is the
>culprit and motivating factor for his odd behavior.
Oh sure, blame AD&D. A well-tried and tested Christian tactic. Did it ever
cross your mind that, at age 13, the boy is *very likely* to exhibit odd
behavíour? You know, adolescence. Raging hormones and wierd dreams. I know
that *I* wouldn't like to be around a kid who was anything like me at age
13. I was that bad!
> I will not allow this game to poison the minds of our youth with all
this
>killing, raping, pillaging, and looting that you people fantasize about
when
>you are playing this game. The church group we belong to takes this game as
an
>assault to good decent American values. Please don't play this game any
more
>because it is really bad and you don't even know it. You are all too
wrapped up
>in your own fantasy worlds to see the harm that it is doing to you. But it
is
>evil, I have seen this in just the few months our son has played Dragons
and
>Dungeons. God Help all of you.
There is very little rape, etc. in AD&D games. Sometimes, immature people
use it in the game to tell each other "hey look, I'm really cool, uhuhuh". I
do not condone that. I do not phantasise about rape, killing etc., nor does
anyone here as far as I know. Doing that is just *sick*.
I would like to take this opportunity to tell you about my gaming group; I
am a full-time staff member at a marketing office, I have gone through
Danish college, and will go to university in a few years.
All of our group, in fact, are have passed college or is currently
attending. Some of us will go on to university (two others, besides me). Two
of the others are currently in the army. None of us have any homocidal or
suicidal tendencies, nor do we have any problems discerning fact from
fiction. Two of the group are sons of the local Protestant pastors, and we
actually play at their house.......with no harassment from them as they
actually feel role-playing is good for us. I'd wish you American Christians
would do the same, or at least leave RPG'ing alone.
Regards,
Rune Christensen
Talen
Chris McDaniel
SirAyastar
> I am afraid that if I dont take action and confiscate all my sons books,
> he will be the next one to follow in this path.
Well then why don't you read them? If they are 2nd edition (Which
they likely are if your son just started) TSR sanitized them of all the
'questionable' things in the 1rst edition. Basically all of those things
you'd need to be the slightest bit mature to use were removed. No
devil names, no poisons, not too much objectionable. You won't find
any references to the players raping or pillaging or mutilating farm
animals. In most cases they are trying to stop such things.
Oh and kudos on the post. It started out in just a serious enough tone
that it got me reading it seriously, moved into a mildly reproving stage
and then blamo into the horribly sterotyping and bigoted views. It
really was quite nicely done. Some problems with sense would lead a
quick rereading to give doubt to some of your claims. Next time choose
a viewpoint and stick with it. You see you are condemning a group of
people before you even take the books away from your son? Otherwise a good
attempt, Congratulations.
Oh and if you're gonna condemn a group of people you don't
"Nobody ever said anything worth Quoting" --Anonymous
Return my adderess to it's undiluted capitalist state from it's present
misguided state, go ahead the computer says you should and the
computer is your friend.............Right?
Rune R Christensen
Snuggles the Psycho shepherd
> Kim Trullinger
Ron is that you? ;^>
--
-Louis
to reply remove: .endspam
_ Baaah!
________/ \ /
/ __|
/\_ __ _/
|| ||
Rune R Christensen
<368F53B7...@ehmail.com.endspam>...
>> Sincerely,
>> Kim Trullinger
>Ron is that you? ;^>
I was wondering that myself, but I decided to give her the benefit of the
doubt.
jackfrost
Let me begin by saying that Advanced Dungeons and Dragons is a
roleplaying game: think of it as impromptu acting. At its best it can be
Shakespeare on-the-fly, Hercules and Xena type action, or (at its worst) a
crappy sitcom with a medieval setting.
> I do not play your game, Dragons and Dungeons, but my 13 year old son
just
>started playing this game a few months ago. Let me start by stating that I
>consider myself to be a open minded suburban mom, but this game is starting
to
>worry me. When our son started playing the game it did not really bother me
too
>much, but now things have gotten worse. He plays it as much as he can and
his
>school work has started to suffer, and what's worse, his attitude has grown
>more withdrawn. He now spends all of his time reading his books and rolling
>dice all the time. I just don't understand it.
You just admitted you don't understand it: this is a good start. Read your
son's books. Ask to sit in on a game. If he is letting his schoolwork slip,
limit the time or number of days per week he can play. This is an activity
that can take up lots of time, much like watching television (though I would
consider myself lucky that my son is actually thinking rather than
vegetating in front of the television). As for being withdrawn, consider
this: he just found a neat and fun new hobby that people are berating him
about. How would you feel/act? He's in a little clique that accepts it, and
the more pressure on him, the more he will dissociate himself from others
and turn to his group.
>
> I have asked him to talk about the game and tell me what he is doing,
but
>he does not say much about it except that they kill monsters and steal
>treasure. So I have taken it upon myself as his parent to find out if this
game
>is harmful to his mental well being. I have done a bit of research, and
talked
>to the pastor at our church about this game, and what I have found is not
good!
What kind of research? As for pastors, I have little respect for them. You
must consider that a preacher is not likely to adopt 'controversial'
viewpoints, such as say that roleplaying games are good. Their power over
people depends solely on their credibility and if it got out that a preacher
supported rpging, he might lose a member of the flock. I suggest you try
some sources less likely to be biased. For instance, go to your library
(better yet, the nearest colllege library) and look into the Annual Index of
Psychology Publications. I'm sure that someone in that field has loooked at
rpgs (i've heard of one that uses them as therapy, even).
>
> First of all I found out about a movie made back in 1983 that told the
>story of a group of people that played the Dragons and Dungeons game, it
was
>called Mazes and Monsters. In this movie they showed how the game makes
people
>have delusions and how the game is harmful to ones mental health. Also, I
found
>out that the young boy in Oregon who killed his parents with a
shotgunplayed
>this game. And then there was that group of kids down in Mississippi that
>belonged to a secret cult that played this role playing game. They would
kill
>animals and mutilate the bodies. I am afraid that if I dont take action and
>confiscate all my sons books, he will be the next one to follow in this
path.
>His attitude is really bad lately, and I think Dragon and Dungeons is the
>culprit and motivating factor for his odd behavior.
I saw Mazes... when I was 12. I hadn't even begun playing D&D, but I saw it
for the trash it was. Even at twelve, I realized that there were holes in
that plot large enough to drive a bus through. As for the heinous acts you
mentioned above, it takes someone who is quite thoroughly deranged to commit
them; those people had problems far greater than caused by a simple game.
>
> I will not allow this game to poison the minds of our youth with all
this
>killing, raping, pillaging, and looting that you people fantasize about
when
>you are playing this game. The church group we belong to takes this game as
an
>assault to good decent American values. Please don't play this game any
more
>because it is really bad and you don't even know it. You are all too
wrapped up
>in your own fantasy worlds to see the harm that it is doing to you. But it
is
>evil, I have seen this in just the few months our son has played Dragons
and
>Dungeons. God Help all of you.
If your son does fantasize about this, please consider he is thirteen and
going through puberty. He is discovering that something is up with the other
half of the species and he's not quite sure what. And that is frustrating,
especially in a "gooddecentchurchgoing" family; he doesn't have anyone to
talk to about this.... besides his (also thirteen year old) friends, who are
in the same boat. The church is usually quick to demonize sex and shy away
from speaking about it (like D&D).
I hope that I have helped you get a closer look at this 'problem'.
Sincerely,
randy
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>>>
+ Randy Newnham
+ rsco...@iglou.com
<<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Cywatt
even existed. Just to inform the non-AOL users, a profile is available for all
screennames to use. Sure enough, I did a search for a profile that would go
with the screenname and turned up nothing. I know that not all screennames on
AOL have a profile tagged onto it, but ms. concerned parent struck me as a
person who would fill up that available space with prayers and addresses on
where to get pamphlets on how many crosses should be hung in the foyer on
Halloween.
This whole deal i feel was just used to stir up the AD&D community into a
uproar. A prank or something similar, nothing more. If the original post IS
by someone that has real concern about their child, you would think she would
respond by now.
Cywatt
"Don't bite the hand that feeds you, unless you can tear the arm off as well."
Larry Mead
: Hello,
: I do not play your game, Dragons and Dungeons, but my 13 year old son just
: started playing this game a few months ago. Let me start by stating that I
: consider myself to be a open minded suburban mom, but this game is starting to
: worry me. When our son started playing the game it did not really bother me too
: much, but now things have gotten worse. He plays it as much as he can and his
: school work has started to suffer, and what's worse, his attitude has grown
: more withdrawn. He now spends all of his time reading his books and rolling
: dice all the time. I just don't understand it.
He is undergoing a period of intellectual discovery. When the books are
thoroughly absorbed this will slow down considerably, so don't worry so
much about that. As for school work, I think that as an educator I must
suggest that you put your foot down: Dnd only *once* per week and only
*after* homework is done.
: I have asked him to talk about the game and tell me what he is doing, but
: he does not say much about it except that they kill monsters and steal
: treasure. So I have taken it upon myself as his parent to find out if this game
: is harmful to his mental well being. I have done a bit of research, and talked
: to the pastor at our church about this game, and what I have found is not good!
First, your pastor has probably never played the game and most likely
knows about it only by (perhaps biased) rumor. I assure you that there
is nothing inherently evil nor corrupting about Dnd, just as there is
not for playing cards, chess, or dancing. Children will go overboard, yes.
But this is just a game about a group of people playing in an imaginary
world (one of them has invented). IMO, it actually promotes thinking.
One learns about how the world works, how to cooperate to attain an end,
mythology and law, good vs evil; the game provides an intellectual
companionship which may not be available otherwise. Players I have known
are from all walks of life and professions; all religions and persuasion.
None have ever shown any malignancy due to Dnd.
: First of all I found out about a movie made back in 1983 that told the
: story of a group of people that played the Dragons and Dungeons game, it was
: called Mazes and Monsters. In this movie they showed how the game makes people
: have delusions and how the game is harmful to ones mental health. Also, I found
: out that the young boy in Oregon who killed his parents with a shotgunplayed
: this game. And then there was that group of kids down in Mississippi that
: belonged to a secret cult that played this role playing game. They would kill
: animals and mutilate the bodies. I am afraid that if I dont take action and
: confiscate all my sons books, he will be the next one to follow in this path.
: His attitude is really bad lately, and I think Dragon and Dungeons is the
: culprit and motivating factor for his odd behavior.
The so-called Dnd game presented in the movie bears little or no
resemblence to actual dungeons and dragons.
There are unbalanced people in every endeavor; even long-respected priests
have been revealed to be monsters in disguise. That some unbalanced child
happened to play Dnd is quite coincidental and little should be made of
this.
: I will not allow this game to poison the minds of our youth with all this
: killing, raping, pillaging, and looting that you people fantasize about when
: you are playing this game. The church group we belong to takes this game as an
: assault to good decent American values. Please don't play this game any more
: because it is really bad and you don't even know it. You are all too wrapped up
: in your own fantasy worlds to see the harm that it is doing to you. But it is
: evil, I have seen this in just the few months our son has played Dragons and
: Dungeons. God Help all of you.
: Sincerely,
: Kim Trullinger
He already has; he has provided us with the intellect and imagination to
invent a harmless, but stimulating game which enriches our intellectual
lives. Take a close look at it before making any final judgement. You
may find that it is your own values which may be out of kilter in this
instance. In any case, Dnd isn't about killing, raping, pillaging and
looting (though the latter goes on in the mind). I and my players allow
only the banishment of evil; characters obey laws, do not even mention
rape.
Sincerely,
DMgorgon
--
Lawrence R. Mead Ph.D. (Lawren...@usm.edu)
Eschew Obfuscation! Espouse Elucidation!
www-dept.usm.edu/~physics/mead.html
tc
<Lo...@ehmail.com.endspam> wrote:
>> Sincerely,
>> Kim Trullinger
>Ron is that you? ;^>
Hmmm, I was wondering that also :)
So is that how its going to be from now on? Every time an amusing
troll turns up we all wonder if its Ron again?
TC
Silverstorm
PTAMom Kim wrote in message <19990103031455.21597Please don't play this game
any more
>because it is really bad and you don't even know it. You are all too
wrapped up
>in your own fantasy worlds to see the harm that it is doing to you. But it
is
>evil, I have seen this in just the few months our son has played Dragons
and
>Dungeons. God Help all of you.
>
>Sincerely,
>Kim Trullinger
This is an obvious troll. Anyone with enough with enough intellect to find
this place would figure out for themselves that the anti-dnd rhetoric is
baloney. Probably just another regular here that has nothin' better to do
than fuck with people's heads. PTAMom Kim? sheesh, how over-the-top can you
get?
Silverstorm
FireMed3
That kid in "Mazes and Monsters" was already screwed up in the head. It
wasn't the game, it was the kid.
If you can't seperate real from imaginary, don't play the game. If you can
remain normal, then go ahead and play it.
Eric S. McDonald
Fire Chief
Lego City Fire Department
URL: http://members.aol.com/FireMed3/index.html
bjbrown
(a posting that intentionally seeks to upset people). However, I can
respond briefly to the ill effects of the game.
Most of the people I have played with are financially successful
professionals (including 4 lawyers, fda enforcement, 3 computer
programmers/technicians, one who isn't professional yet but working
his way through med school). A majority of them are married and have
families (families that have stuck together and not suffered divorce).
Most of those are raising children, and most of them who are married
play the game, or other roleplaying games, with their spouses).
I personally am a Christian. I don't see any conflict with playing a
game and being a Christian. Just like I don't see any conflict with
being a Christian and watching Disney's Hercules (which is about false
gods) or the Lion King (which involves anthropomorphic lions killing
each other).
If your son is having problems in school, you should obviously get him
help. If he's playing games rather than doing his schoolwork, then
you should disallow him playing games until his schoolwork is
satisfactorially finished. And it's really up to you, if you think
that Dungeons and Dragons is a bad influence on your son, you can take
it away from him.
However, it's a mistake to blame any of your son's problems on
inanimate objects like books, or to worry that they will cause him
future problems. You'll fail to solve his problems.
And if you want to continue to tell everyone what a bad influence
Dungeons and Dragons is, you're wasting time doing it here. We've
heard it all before, and we've decided that it's not true. If I
wanted to tell your church group that they are wrong about assigning
blame of the world's problems to inanimate objects, I wouldn't come to
your church to do it.
On 3 Jan 1999 08:14:55 GMT, ptam...@aol.com (PTAMom Kim) wrote:
>Hello,
>
> I do not play your game, Dragons and Dungeons, but my 13 year old son just
>started playing this game a few months ago. Let me start by stating that I
>consider myself to be a open minded suburban mom, but this game is starting to
>worry me. When our son started playing the game it did not really bother me too
>much, but now things have gotten worse. He plays it as much as he can and his
>school work has started to suffer, and what's worse, his attitude has grown
>more withdrawn. He now spends all of his time reading his books and rolling
>dice all the time. I just don't understand it.
>
> I have asked him to talk about the game and tell me what he is doing, but
>he does not say much about it except that they kill monsters and steal
>treasure. So I have taken it upon myself as his parent to find out if this game
>is harmful to his mental well being. I have done a bit of research, and talked
>to the pastor at our church about this game, and what I have found is not good!
>
> First of all I found out about a movie made back in 1983 that told the
>story of a group of people that played the Dragons and Dungeons game, it was
>called Mazes and Monsters. In this movie they showed how the game makes people
>have delusions and how the game is harmful to ones mental health. Also, I found
>out that the young boy in Oregon who killed his parents with a shotgunplayed
>this game. And then there was that group of kids down in Mississippi that
>belonged to a secret cult that played this role playing game. They would kill
>animals and mutilate the bodies. I am afraid that if I dont take action and
>confiscate all my sons books, he will be the next one to follow in this path.
>His attitude is really bad lately, and I think Dragon and Dungeons is the
>culprit and motivating factor for his odd behavior.
>
> I will not allow this game to poison the minds of our youth with all this
>killing, raping, pillaging, and looting that you people fantasize about when
>you are playing this game. The church group we belong to takes this game as an
>assault to good decent American values. Please don't play this game any more
bjbrown
himself. She blamed the game. After hearing her talk about her
philosophies of raising children (search their rooms every day,
suspect them of drugs/crime/satanic activity even when you haven't
observed any signs, don't let them have friends, confine them to the
house), I have a different theory on why her son killed himself.
On Sun, 03 Jan 1999 04:24:14 -0500, Agent86 <NOS...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
William Earl Pargen
the game that it must be evil. Saying AD&D is Evil is like saying Stock
Brokers are Suicidal (remember what happened the last time the market really
crashed?).
gx9000
PTAMom Kim <ptam...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990103031455...@ng-fp1.aol.com...
>Hello,
>
> I do not play your game, Dragons and Dungeons, but my 13 year old son
just
>started playing this game a few months ago. Let me start by stating that I
>consider myself to be a open minded suburban mom, but this game is starting
to
>worry me. When our son started playing the game it did not really bother me
too
>much, but now things have gotten worse. He plays it as much as he can and
his
>school work has started to suffer, and what's worse, his attitude has grown
>more withdrawn. He now spends all of his time reading his books and rolling
>dice all the time. I just don't understand it.
The game Dungeons and Dragons is nothing more the what the subject playing
it does with it. The game should be played as any other game: in moderation.
After all, it is just a hobby. D&D is like a computer: it serves you, not
the other way round. Therefore I conclude that if your son has come to the
stage in which he is obsessed with it, and he will do nothing else other
than play D&D, then there is nothing more I can say than to take his D&D
books away from him and not let him play again UNTIL HE HAS A LESS
IMPRESSIONABLE MIND. It is truly sad that your son has come to the stage
where he is doing nothing more, because the D&D game is one which teaches
both mythology and how to cooperate with others. However, the chuch has
NEVER made a good impression of AD&D. They have always accused it, because
it contains factors that would go against its philosophies. No offense, but
if your son cannot deal with D&D, then how does he deal with becomes
obsessed with other things, such as violent or disturbing movies, sex,
drugs, video games, cigarettes? All these have an obsessive factor too. If
your son is having trouble with D&D, then I suggest you watch out for other
obsessive habits too. D&D has 2 sides to it, like a coin. So does everything
else. Your son must learn that something like D&D can be enjoyed, but in
moderation, just like everything else in the world.
> I have asked him to talk about the game and tell me what he is doing,
but
>he does not say much about it except that they kill monsters and steal
>treasure. So I have taken it upon myself as his parent to find out if this
game
>is harmful to his mental well being. I have done a bit of research, and
talked
>to the pastor at our church about this game, and what I have found is not
good!
As I said before, the game is only what you make of it. If he tells you it
is about killing monsters and grabbing treasure, then that is what his needs
are. He is probably not getting a stimulating enough life, and therefore he
must escape reality through D&D. This is just an idea, I may not be right.
> First of all I found out about a movie made back in 1983 that told the
>story of a group of people that played the Dragons and Dungeons game, it
was
>called Mazes and Monsters. In this movie they showed how the game makes
people
>have delusions and how the game is harmful to ones mental health. Also, I
found
>out that the young boy in Oregon who killed his parents with a
shotgunplayed
>this game. And then there was that group of kids down in Mississippi that
>belonged to a secret cult that played this role playing game. They would
kill
>animals and mutilate the bodies. I am afraid that if I dont take action and
>confiscate all my sons books, he will be the next one to follow in this
path.
>His attitude is really bad lately, and I think Dragon and Dungeons is the
>culprit and motivating factor for his odd behavior.
>
> I will not allow this game to poison the minds of our youth with all
this
>killing, raping, pillaging, and looting that you people fantasize about
when
>you are playing this game. The church group we belong to takes this game as
an
>assault to good decent American values.
What are decent American values? Sitting at home, watching TV, and having
one's brain turn to mush? Good thing I don't live in the US.
>Please don't play this game any more
>because it is really bad and you don't even know it. You are all too
wrapped up
>in your own fantasy worlds to see the harm that it is doing to you. But it
is
>evil, I have seen this in just the few months our son has played Dragons
and
>Dungeons.
>God Help all of you.
Gimme a break. There have been more holy wars than D&D wars.
=Gx9000=
Tim Scoff
me violence was exciting also. I grew out of that stage long before I
started playing D&D.
The group that I used to play D&D with until I moved has a DM who is
also a Lay Speaker at his church. D&D is whatever the people playing the
game make it, it depends entirely on the imagination and creativity of the
players and the DM. It teaches problem solving, teamwork, and
co-operation. If you read the TSR publications you will see many
references to doing the right thing, sticking up for people less fortunate
than you are, etc.... Somehow those publications are not quoted or they
are quoted out of context. For example the fact that demons are part of
D&D is mentioned as a reason to shun the game. The fact that they are
held up as an example of ultimate evil is never mentioned.
The game is not good and it is not evil. It is a game. It is the
people who play it who determine what they turn it into every time it is
played, and every gaming group is different. I have played with many
different groups of people and every group is different. However every
group has had one thing in common. D&D is a game, not our lives. It is
no different than any other hobby in that respect, it is a part of what we
do for recreation. It is not what we do every waking minute.
Your son is going overboard and choosing to ignore reality for the
fantasy world that he created. That is a problem and he needs to spend
more time in the real world and less time in his fantasy world. However
D&D is just the escape, it isn't the cause of him wanting to excape. If
he had the latest computer with unrestricted access to it he'ld be
spending too much time playing the current batch of shoot em up computer
games, which are far worse and more graphic than any TSR publication, and
his grades would be suffering. Don't blame a game for something that
would be happening anyway.
In article <19990103031455...@ng-fp1.aol.com>,
ptam...@aol.com (PTAMom Kim) wrote:
>Hello,
>
> I do not play your game, Dragons and Dungeons, but my 13 year old son just
>started playing this game a few months ago. Let me start by stating that I
>consider myself to be a open minded suburban mom, but this game is starting to
>worry me. When our son started playing the game it did not really bother me too
>much, but now things have gotten worse. He plays it as much as he can and his
>school work has started to suffer, and what's worse, his attitude has grown
>more withdrawn. He now spends all of his time reading his books and rolling
>dice all the time. I just don't understand it.
>
> I have asked him to talk about the game and tell me what he is doing, but
>he does not say much about it except that they kill monsters and steal
>treasure. So I have taken it upon myself as his parent to find out if this game
>is harmful to his mental well being. I have done a bit of research, and talked
>to the pastor at our church about this game, and what I have found is not good!
>
> First of all I found out about a movie made back in 1983 that told the
>story of a group of people that played the Dragons and Dungeons game, it was
>called Mazes and Monsters. In this movie they showed how the game makes people
>have delusions and how the game is harmful to ones mental health. Also, I found
>out that the young boy in Oregon who killed his parents with a shotgunplayed
>this game. And then there was that group of kids down in Mississippi that
>belonged to a secret cult that played this role playing game. They would kill
>animals and mutilate the bodies. I am afraid that if I dont take action and
>confiscate all my sons books, he will be the next one to follow in this path.
>His attitude is really bad lately, and I think Dragon and Dungeons is the
>culprit and motivating factor for his odd behavior.
>
> I will not allow this game to poison the minds of our youth with all this
>killing, raping, pillaging, and looting that you people fantasize about when
>you are playing this game. The church group we belong to takes this game as an
>assault to good decent American values. Please don't play this game any more
>because it is really bad and you don't even know it. You are all too wrapped up
>in your own fantasy worlds to see the harm that it is doing to you. But it is
>evil, I have seen this in just the few months our son has played Dragons and
>Dungeons. God Help all of you.
>
>Sincerely,
>Kim Trullinger
Dougal Graham
>
> =Gx9000=
it dependsm if you eman wars inna campaign :D there have been tons in my
campaigns.
Patrick Jones
Ms. Trullinger,
I feel the urge to choke people like you on a daily basis. Not because
I play evil role-playing games, but because I have the same urge when it
comes to ANY stupid person. Especially those who get up on their moral
high horses, trying to tell others what they should or shouldn't do.
You see one badly researched movie, and you think you know all there is
about role-playing games. Have you read none of the research that
psychologists have done regarding this issue? They agree that role
playing games are not detrimental to mental health. The people who you
mention (the guy from the movie, the boy in Oregon, etc.) all had mental
problems before they started playing Dungeons and Dragons. What the
real problem is, is that society and parents are looking for a scapegoat
for their own shortcomings. If they had been more sensitive to their
children's needs, and gotten them the help they needed, rather than
trying to blame it all on a game, maybe these things wouldn't have
happened. Please keep your opinions to yourself if they are not backed
up any better than what yours is.
Trent Knuckles
this
>killing, raping, pillaging, and looting that you people fantasize about
when
>you are playing this game. The church group we belong to takes this game as
an
>assault to good decent American values.
Please tell me this is some kind of joke or troll or something. I know
there are parents out there that are this stupid, but I just hate to see
it in this group.
Regards,
Trent
--
*******************************************************
Lone Gunman Infoline v1.36: "Cultures that
systematically disenfranchise their poorest
citizens must then generate complex conceits
to deny that underlying truth."
*******************************************************
Robert Baldwin
wrote:
><snip>
>PTAMom Kim wrote in message <19990103031455.21597Please don't play this game
>any more
>>because it is really bad and you don't even know it. You are all too
>wrapped up
>>in your own fantasy worlds to see the harm that it is doing to you. But it
>is
>>evil, I have seen this in just the few months our son has played Dragons
>and
>>Dungeons. God Help all of you.
>>
>>Sincerely,
>>Kim Trullinger
>
>
>This is an obvious troll. Anyone with enough with enough intellect to find
>this place would figure out for themselves that the anti-dnd rhetoric is
>baloney. Probably just another regular here that has nothin' better to do
>than fuck with people's heads. PTAMom Kim? sheesh, how over-the-top can you
>get?
I'm inclined to think Ron's still around. Hmm. Maybe PTAMom Kim just
needs to spen a little time with Brutha Chunk?
--
Saint Baldwin, definer of the unholy darkspawn.
"Everyone dies someday; the trick is doing it well."
-
Spam Satan! www.sluggy.com
Remove the spam-block to reply
gx9000
news:369b308e....@news.bctel.net...
>On 3 Jan 1999 08:14:55 GMT, ptam...@aol.com (PTAMom Kim) wrote:
>When gaming, your son is socializing with his friends - they're
>spending time together, being creative, creating a story together.
>Beats playing with Nintendo or Sega any day, to my mind.
For some reason I have a feeling this kid is playing AD&D by himself!
Pinochet
PTAMom Kim wrote in message <19990103031455...@ng-fp1.aol.com>...
What you say is all true, every last word of it. I know it is. Because I am
experience all those problems, but you know what? The foul demonic beings
my cabal has summoned in our dark rituals won't let me go. I can't stop. They
make me do things and I can't resist them. And they have your son too. And
they're planning to deal with you. Prepare to suffer the worst time of your
life.
Just like I am.
The NecroMaster
say to Mrs. Kim......I specifically play evil characters in this game....I
feel they have more freedom and to me are alot more fun to play....but
never....NEVER have I ever had one of my characters rape anyone elses.....I
feel rapist should be castrated before being executed for this heinous
crime....yes my characters steal, pillage loot and what not....they even
animate the dead into undying minions but what most of you fanatics don't
understand is that this is a GAME, its not real and you cannot blame some
books and dice for your child's misbehavior....thats your fault, you are
responsible for raising your child and making sure they do what they are
told, and that they grow up to be productive adults.
excuse my anger but stereotyping pisses me off
Lord Hannible Sanguin ~The NecroMaster~
LORD HANNIBLE'S REALM OF CHAOS [Last Updated: 12/2/98]
http://www.geocities.com/~kingofchaos/
Free web-based e-mail at:
http://realmofchaos.zzn.com
ROTA: The Ring of the ArchMagi [600 Sites]
http://www.geocities.com/~kingofchaos/archmage
The Broken Tower : Original DarkSun Material
http://www.geocities.com/~kingofchaos/darksun/
The Vrolok's Dominion:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/8824/index.html
Rune R Christensen
Hmm yes, it probably will. From now on we'll have to check out all people
who come in here, no matter who they say they are. No one will be above
suspicion.........come to think about it, TC, you seem to be behaving a
little odd at the moment........HEY, IT'S RON! EVERYONE LOOK, TC IS ACTUALLY
RON!!! :-) At this point I'm beginning to wonder whether Terry Austin and
Steevil the Parakeet are also nothing but alter-egos of the all-mighty Ron.
Hell, *I* might even be Ron........>bites tongue, puts on an innocent face<
Ummm, no, please forget about that statement, I didn't mean it. Slip of the
tongue, erm, no.... look, A GREEN ELEPHANT! (attention diverted, phew).
Rune R Christensen
Paul MacDonald
>
> Hello,
>
Hello!
Ron, is that you?
Paul MacDonald
Unknown
>he does not say much about it except that they kill monsters and steal
>treasure. So I have taken it upon myself as his parent to find out if this game
>is harmful to his mental well being. I have done a bit of research, and talked
>to the pastor at our church about this game, and what I have found is not good!
Oh, of course not. Prepare the propaganda....
> First of all I found out about a movie made back in 1983 that told the
>story of a group of people that played the Dragons and Dungeons game, it was
>called Mazes and Monsters. In this movie they showed how the game makes people
>have delusions and how the game is harmful to ones mental health. Also, I found
Stereotyping. The game MAY make SOME people do such things as this,
but I have never gone into the city searching for the enchanted sword
of Archareus. I have played this game on and off for years now,
starting when I was about your son's age.
I was absorbed in it. Not summoning demons or plotting cultic
activity like most who see it from the outside do, but having fun
fighting dragons and sorcerors.
The game is NOT harmful to mental health, else there are millions of
afflicted people out there. It is a g-a-m-e. If someone is turning
it into more than just a game, then it is up to someone else to
instruct them about the differences between reality and fantasy, and
the facts of actions and consequences.
>out that the young boy in Oregon who killed his parents with a shotgunplayed
>this game. And then there was that group of kids down in Mississippi that
>belonged to a secret cult that played this role playing game. They would kill
>animals and mutilate the bodies. I am afraid that if I dont take action and
>confiscate all my sons books, he will be the next one to follow in this path.
>His attitude is really bad lately, and I think Dragon and Dungeons is the
>culprit and motivating factor for his odd behavior.
That gives us an example of 2 incidents of perhaps <10 people out of
the MILLIONS that play. Granted, you can use the game as a tool to
flavor this other stuff. But I can also use the principles I learned
from MONOPOLY to become a money-grubbing real estate broker.
Just because someone does something awful and plays D&D, it does not
mean that it was the direct cause of their actions. If I were to
murder someone, would it matter that I played a game?
And this is my guess, based on typical teenage behavior, but if you
take away the books, he will use his friends' books, and the action of
taking them will further alienate the two of you.
> I will not allow this game to poison the minds of our youth with all this
>killing, raping, pillaging, and looting that you people fantasize about when
I would not use this tone if you did not stereotype. Understand that
the game is not based on rape or anything like that. You don't have
to kill any creatures in it if you don't want to. Pillaging and
looting? Did your son (or you or your husband) ever play cops and
robbers? Cowboys and Indians? Pirates? Welcome to the Elementary
Playground of Looting and Pillaging, found in schools everywhere.
You are basing all this on the information on one side of the
argument--propaganda. I am a Mississippian, and I am not in a cult, I
was raised in a Christian family, am a Christian myself, and play with
5 other people. The total education total between the 5 of us exceeds
70 years of school. 3 out of the five of have degrees from a
university, 1 is a semester away, and 1 is a couple of semesters away.
We sit around playing every other weekend, laughing and making jokes,
eating pizza, and sitting crosslegged on a carpet floor.
There is no cult, no pentagrams, no demons, etc., etc., etc.!!!!!!!
DO NOT STEREOTYPE EVERYONE BASED ON ONE SIDE OF AN ARGUMENT!!! That's
called propaganda working like a charm.
>you are playing this game. The church group we belong to takes this game as an
>assault to good decent American values. Please don't play this game any more
>because it is really bad and you don't even know it. You are all too wrapped up
>in your own fantasy worlds to see the harm that it is doing to you. But it is
>evil, I have seen this in just the few months our son has played Dragons and
>Dungeons. God Help all of you.
I pray that your son's activity in recent weeks is the result being a
teenager. The game is not harmful unless you make it so. The same
thing goes for guns, knives, forks, fire, big rocks, etc.
...
Gebhard Blucher
>
> yes! and did you notice how it started out as a concerned parent wanting to
> find out about the game and then turned to a dnd bashing message? set off my
> troll alarms. and then look at the name. first, i am a parent myself and i
> don't think i would create my REAL email add as ptada...@troll.com or what
> ever it was. smelled like a troll to me. and the clincher was the last name
> of trullinger. to much like TROLLING for my tastes. i'm not touching this
> one!
If you break the name down, it sounds like this...
'kay I am trolling her.
I think it's a troll. Even the repentant "360" turn around post...
:-)
GB
Chance Saver
have heard this "I am a Christian and this game is evil" line before.
This persons "research" seems tailor made to have the players of D&D
come out en masse in defense of the game. The situation sounds to pat.
I'm sure many smelled something was up when "Parent" used that silly Tom
Hanks movie as an example of how D&D poisons our youth. Anyone who
would skip a genuine analysis of the effects of the game and instead
stoop to a "Reefer Madness" point of attack comes across to me not as a
"concerned parent," but as a cyberspace rabble rouser.
Zimri
>come to think about it, TC, you seem to be behaving a
>little odd at the moment........HEY, IT'S RON! EVERYONE LOOK, TC IS
ACTUALLY
>RON!!! :-) At this point I'm beginning to wonder whether Terry Austin
and
>Steevil the Parakeet are also nothing but alter-egos of the
all-mighty Ron.
>Hell, *I* might even be Ron........>bites tongue, puts on an innocent
face<
>Ummm, no, please forget about that statement, I didn't mean it. Slip
of the
>tongue, erm, no.... look, A GREEN ELEPHANT! (attention diverted,
phew).
Do you, Rune R. Christensen, solemnly swear that you have never been,
and will never be Ron Poirier?
Where were you when OGUR BOY delivered his first post to rgfd?
What, exactly, was your "relationship" with Ron Poirier?
-- Z :^)
Anthony Michell
replies to your rather biased post. Until you you have actually played the
game AND can veiw the world as your 13 year old son, perhaps you should hear
it from the experts - the people who play the game - not just your god
bothering group. Perhaps you should ask your son some specific questions
instead of just "what so you do?". Things like : How many people DID you
rape? How many vilages DID you pillage? Or what about : How many inocent
villagers did you save from the merderous evil hordes of monsters?
In my opinion, you are too devoted to your religion. Too much good can be
just as detrimental as too much evil, as your posting is evident. To really
do some good, you should never be as biased, and should actually do some
research into the topic first, research from BOTH sides of the fence.
Try to enlighten yourself before forcing your veiws down other peoples
throats, or you will lose every time.
PTAMom Kim wrote in message
<19990103031455...@ng-fp1.aol.com>...
<Major Snipings>
>Sincerely,
>Kim Trullinger
>
Anthony Michell
>actually play at their house.......with no harassment from them as they
We rent out our local church hall for our games, and a few times we have had
to play IN the church. The <insert religious head here> did not mind one
bit.
PJS
PTAMom Kim <ptam...@aol.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I do not play your game, Dragons and Dungeons, but my 13 year old son
> just started playing this game a few months ago...
>
> I have asked him to talk about the game and tell me what he is doing, but
> he does not say much about it except that they kill monsters and steal
> treasure. So I have taken it upon myself as his parent to find out if this
> game is harmful to his mental well being. I have done a bit of research, and
> talked to the pastor at our church about this game
-----------------------------------------------------------------
..and that, madam, has been your first mistake. It's rather like asking Saddam
Hussain about US foreign policy.
---
No matter where you go in the World, there you are.
kun...@onr.com
find out about the game and then turned to a dnd bashing message? set off my
troll alarms. and then look at the name. first, i am a parent myself and i
don't think i would create my REAL email add as ptada...@troll.com or what
ever it was. smelled like a troll to me. and the clincher was the last name
of trullinger. to much like TROLLING for my tastes. i'm not touching this
one!
keith
In article <76nbpt$cgr$0...@207.14.62.86>,
"Kael Greyhawke" <webm...@greyhawke.net> wrote:
> If it walks like a troll and talks like a troll...
>
> -- Kael
> --------------------------------------------------
> email: webm...@greyhawke.net
> webpage: http://www.greyhawke.net
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
phtl...@my-dejanews.com
rbal...@rio.STOPSPAM.com wrote:
> On Sun, 3 Jan 1999 09:54:48 -0600, "Silverstorm" <nuh...@spamtrap.com>
> wrote:
>
> ><snip>
(snip)
> >This is an obvious troll. Anyone with enough with enough intellect to find
> >this place would figure out for themselves that the anti-dnd rhetoric is
> >baloney. Probably just another regular here that has nothin' better to do
> >than fuck with people's heads. PTAMom Kim? sheesh, how over-the-top can you
> >get?
>
> I'm inclined to think Ron's still around. Hmm. Maybe PTAMom Kim just
> needs to spen a little time with Brutha Chunk?
>
> --
> Saint Baldwin, definer of the unholy darkspawn.
Actually, this was not Ron. Ron did make one post similar to this to
alt.christnet.christianlife, which can be found by running a dejanews search
for "alt.christnet.christianife Dungeons Dragons". The fake name is
something like "Linda Healey".
- The Ghost of Ron
The Amorphous Mass
ptam...@aol.com (PTAMom Kim) wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I do not play your game, Dragons and Dungeons
[...etc.]
Please don't feed the trolls! Thanks. :-)
(If it isn't an intentional troll, it's as good as).
--
The Amorphous Mass
amo...@avalon.net
http://www.avalon.net/~amorph <-- being rebuilt from scratch
Luke Goaman-Dodson
>tc skrev i meddelelsen <3690841f...@news.zip.com.au>...
>>On Sun, 03 Jan 1999 03:25:43 -0800, Snuggles the Psycho shepherd
>><Lo...@ehmail.com.endspam> wrote:
>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> Kim Trullinger
>>>Ron is that you? ;^>
It has to be!
>>
>>Hmmm, I was wondering that also :)
>>
>>So is that how its going to be from now on? Every time an amusing
>>troll turns up we all wonder if its Ron again?
Yeah!
>>
>>TC
>
>Hmm yes, it probably will. From now on we'll have to check out all people
>who come in here, no matter who they say they are. No one will be above
>suspicion.........come to think about it, TC, you seem to be behaving a
>little odd at the moment........HEY, IT'S RON! EVERYONE LOOK, TC IS ACTUALLY
>RON!!! :-) At this point I'm beginning to wonder whether Terry Austin and
>Steevil the Parakeet are also nothing but alter-egos of the all-mighty Ron.
No... it couldn't be... the Parakeet Shaman and Terry Austin... Ron?
>Hell, *I* might even be Ron........>bites tongue, puts on an innocent face<
>Ummm, no, please forget about that statement, I didn't mean it. Slip of the
>tongue, erm, no.... look, A GREEN ELEPHANT! (attention diverted, phew).
It's funny you should say that because I AM RON!!!!!!!
>
--
The Lion of Nabin or Moon Hawk I DUNNO!!!
Luke Goaman-Dodson
>..and that, madam, has been your first mistake. It's rather like asking Saddam
>Hussain about US foreign policy.
Ooh, good one!
Patrick M. Berry
I learned to play the game at the Presbyterian Student Center when I was
in college, and later DMed some games at the Baptist Student Union. The
ministers in charge of both place knew what we were doing and had no
problem with it.
There is no inherent conflict between religion and role-playing. The conflict
is between intolerance and open-mindedness. Some people react with fear and
hatred to anything that they don't understand, but this is not religion --
just xenophobia.
Marshall
I'll burn this troll to death on my hell-altar and make a sacrifice to
Demogorgon in order to finish my MA thesis. Hehehehe. Everyone knows the
directions are in the old Crossbows and Chainmail books. Thank God D&D
finally does something usefull for me.
Black Dragon
> The fact is that people kill people, not games.
When games are outlawed, only outlaws will have games!!
Black Dragon
> Hmm yes, it probably will. From now on we'll have to check out all people
> who come in here, no matter who they say they are. No one will be above
> suspicion.........come to think about it, TC, you seem to be behaving a
> little odd at the moment........HEY, IT'S RON! EVERYONE LOOK, TC IS ACTUALLY
> RON!!! :-)
I think he might finally be on to us. Actually, everyone but you here really is
Ron.
Zimri
<36910CAC...@black-dragon.nospam.com>...
We musstn't tell him sso ssoon, no we musstn't, preciouss...
MCarrasco
>
Then call me an outlaw!
Mr. Peabody
--------------------
After watching all three hours of the Clinton questioning, I thought to myself
" In order to hear this kind of talk, any other time, a person would have to
pay $5.49 for the first minute and $2.99 for each minuet after."
tc
>I suspect this is a "troll," a new word I've learned in the newsgroup
>(a posting that intentionally seeks to upset people). However, I can
>respond briefly to the ill effects of the game.
>
>Most of the people I have played with are financially successful
>professionals (including 4 lawyers, fda enforcement, 3 computer
>programmers/technicians, one who isn't professional yet but working
>his way through med school).
LOL, talk about providing proof that D&D is a Satanic game :)
Sorry, couldn't resist.
TC
Robert Baldwin
Mass) wrote:
>In article <19990103031455...@ng-fp1.aol.com>,
>ptam...@aol.com (PTAMom Kim) wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I do not play your game, Dragons and Dungeons
>[...etc.]
>
> Please don't feed the trolls! Thanks. :-)
>
> (If it isn't an intentional troll, it's as good as).
An accidental trollist, perhaps?
--
Saint Baldwin, definer of the unholy darkspawn.
"Everyone dies someday; the trick is doing it well."
-
Spam Satan! www.sluggy.com
Remove the spam-block to reply
Ian Davis
> An accidental trollist, perhaps?
>
> Saint Baldwin, definer of the unholy darkspawn.
Definer of the unholy darkspun, at least! 8^}
Ian.
Jason Eric Nelson
Black Dragon <mr.nos...@black-dragon.nospam.com> wrote:
>Rune R Christensen wrote:
>
>> Hmm yes, it probably will. From now on we'll have to check out all people
>> who come in here, no matter who they say they are. No one will be above
>> suspicion.........come to think about it, TC, you seem to be behaving a
>> little odd at the moment........HEY, IT'S RON! EVERYONE LOOK, TC IS ACTUALLY
>> RON!!! :-)
>
>I think he might finally be on to us. Actually, everyone but you here really is
>Ron.
I'm not usually into this whole troll-baiting business, but my troll-radar
spiked through the roof when I saw the phrase: "shared reality of D&D." I
have never heard anyone but a hardcore gamer use that turn of phrase to
describe an RPG.
Jason Nelson
tja...@u.washington.edu
"He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the
shadow of the Almighty." - Psalms 91:1
Beeblebrox
>
> If it walks like a troll and talks like a troll...
>
instead of Dungeons and Dragons. :-)
--
Jan Jongejan 8-{) --me with moustache
Dept. Comp.Sci.,
Univ. of Groningen,
Netherlands.
email: jj...@cs.rug.nl
krysta...@hotmail.com
it... you asked for it. Heres the way Dungeons and Dragons and almost every
other "Role Playing Game" works, plus a little personal information on the
subject from me.
Good Hard American Values are great. Hard work, no play, bring home the
bacon kind of stuff, and don't question your station in life, just be happy
with it.
Only problem is, the American Value (sounds like a Wal-Mart ad, doesn't it?)
Isn't a Value. It's called the American Dream. The thing that makes the
country great is simply that there are people out there who do NOT conform,
and have a dream to do/be something else. Most of those people do not play
role playing games, but, you can bet that quite a few that do fit into that
group.
If your son is withdrawn, and offers up little to no information, just think
about this. Your son could be working at Burger King for extra money at his
age, and the most you'd get out of him is "Well, I just make food, and charge
people." Your son doesn't offer up much, because most kids parents don't
understand their teenagers in almost anything they do, let alone something as
bizarre as Dungeons and Dragons. And, add to the fact that he's at the age
where he doesn't particularly want parent intervention in his life. He's
crossing that threshold, and that's what you should expect from him.
By all means, if he was still the "perfect" child he was at 10, I'd consider
taking him to counseling.
Now, about the game.
Dungeons and Dragons, (and other role playing games in general) aren't really
about killing everything, taking everything's money, and so on and so forth.
This is what generally happens at a "game" session.
Your son sits down with his character, which is written on paper. He also
has with him his bag of dice. The object of the game is for your son to put
himself in someone elses shoes for a while, and make decisions that affect
the environment said character "lives" in. By choosing right or left, right
or wrong, and seeing what the consequences are, he'll know what to do with
that character in the future. His characters abilities exist only in his
mind, so he has to use his own knowledge to think things through, and make
decisions. If you wanted to stereotype it, he's playing a video game that
isn't bad for his eyes, involves a social situation, and develops his
intelligence, ability to learn, and the ability to see things from someone
elses point of view. (which, by the way, if you look back on your life, you
probably didn't figure out until you were much older.) (Serious gamers are
going to flame me for the video game reference, but....)
You can take the advice down below to heart, because it's "my" story about
"role playing games".
I had the same problem your son did going through high school. Probably
worse. I was an only child, and I grew up in a neighborhood with nothing but
older people. Great environment for making money cutting grass, but rather
lacking in the same age department. My parents were great, and very
understanding. My grades slipped, primarily because I wanted them to. I
never looked at Dungeons and Dragons until much much later though. I had all
the typical "parent/teenager" problems (just like your going through as a
parent), and I still graduated on time. After graduation, I realized that
doing blue collar work wasn't for me, and that I couldn't afford to go to
college, so I joined the military. (Air Force, to be exact.) Where I
learned how to be an Electronics Technician. My first assignment was in
Cheyenne Wyoming, which, compared to Detroit, is a whole lot smaller, and a
ton more "hick-ish." I did not fit in over there, period. I had trouble at
work, got into trouble in the barracks, the whole list. I never picked up a
set of dice, or DnD book until almost a year and a half later. I made a
friend with someone who used to live in the same area as me, and he started
me off on gaming. At first, it was a really cheap way to spend an otherwise
empty Saturday. Once I got involved, however, I began to see things the way
other people look at them. I began to realize that I didn't have everyone
against me like I thought, and started to understand that a lot of the things
that went wrong in my life, were the result of me. So, I filled in the chip
in my shoulder I seemed to carry, and began to make an effort in my work.
Immediately, people noticed the change. I began to be a lot more social with
people, since I gamed with a few of them, and thus, felt a lot more
comfortable around them. People I didn't know, or who I'd never met, I
didn't have a problem walking up to and speaking to. I looked forward in my
life for the first time. Started going to college, but with a different
approach than I had originally intended. If you wanted the short version of
this, it changed my life for the better.
Three years, and two assignments later, I'm now in Italy. I'm still doing
the same job I had when I got in, but now, I actually take a little pride in
my work. I also hold an associates degree in electronics (thank you Air
Force) and an associates degree in psychology. (thank you pocket book) And,
in case your wondering, yes, I talk to parents on a regular basis about their
children. (Currently working on a B.A. major in child psychology)
Before you damn Role Playing games, remember that it has been done since the
beginning of time. You did it with dolls and tea sets when you were younger,
and with "Doctor" when you were older. Your sons father did it with a bow
and arrow/bee bee gun when he was younger, and with "king of the hill" and
other such games when he was older. It's completely natural for children and
adults of all ages to "Role Play" and in truth, it's mentally healthy for
people to be able to take a step away from themselves for a while.
Successful actors aren't just people who read lines on paper. they are
people who get involved with whatever character they are playing, and
actually "become" them. (which is why actors get paid so much, and seem to
do so well in different roles.)
And, I still am a confirmed member of the Roman Catholic Church. And yes,
the church role-plays as well, they just don't like that info to be spread
around.
(I'm sure some local church has done a nativity play lately. Role Playing in
it's finest. The stations of the Cross are "Role Playing" as well. And,
look at how involved the role playing is when people go up for the eucharist.
It's not "really" the body of Christ, but you can bet every holy person in
the place has convinced themselves that it is. I can go on and on, but I'll
end it with the washing of the feet on Holy Thursday.)
And the movie that you watched (or were forced to watch... I had to be,
before I ever picked up a DnD game.) was put on by people who have no concept
of what the game is, and those type of people generally attack everything
they don't understand. Like the power of flight.
I can understand your frustration at what your son is doing. It's natural
for parents to object to something that isn't what they did when they were
younger. The only way your going to come out of this with son intact, is to
support him. He isn't hurting himself, and he isn't breaking laws. If you
drag him away from this, he'll probably sneak around behind your back and do
it anyway, and he'll resent you for it. These aren't threats to you, or your
son, but assumptions based on general teenager behavior.
If you feel you need to take this on a personal level, I can be reached via
email at krysta...@hotmail.com.
krystal_blade
"And angels shall weep crimson tears for those souls lost to ignorance"
which, by the way, is inscribed as a warning on one of the walls in the
original translation of Dantes "Inferno".
krysta...@hotmail.com
I just posted a letter to "Concerned Parent" and it probably will not be
read, even though it's roughly four pages long, and took me quite a while to
write.
I'm not complaining about lost time, I'm telling people about lost
opportunities.
We had a parent on here. (possibly...) And they were obviously needing an
education of sorts. A good deal of that education was the phrase "opinions
are like ***holes etc etc."
When a parent comes to us, gamers all (almost all) and asks for information,
we should have the decency to stand up for our beleifs, and inform others of
the truth. We don't need to swear at them, call them idiots (no matter what
they say) and generally, we don't really need to cover a Parent (who is
concerned about the effect of gaming on their child) with colorful
expletives, slams on their own lifestyle, and running amok with flames. It's
a chance to reach out to someone and possibly, just possibly, gain an ally on
our side.
Just as a note. When talking to people with the yay, or nay power, telling
them where to stuff their life is generally not a good idea. No matter how
much they deserve it.
Heres to reserving the flames for the regulars......
krystal_blade
krysta...@hotmail.com
"And angels shall weep crimson tears for those souls lost to ignorance."
dk...@cas.org
PTAMom Kim wrote:
>
> He plays it as much as he can and his
> school work has started to suffer, and what's worse, his attitude has grown
> more withdrawn. He now spends all of his time reading his books and rolling
> dice all the time. I just don't understand it.
What's to understand? He's become enfatuated with something new that he really
likes. Just like he could with a new girlfriend, sport, instrument, or any
other activity that someone could become enfatuated with. It's your job as
a parent to see that he keeps perspective.
The problem with this enfatuation is that it mostly involves creativity and the
mind and can easily consume most of his waking thoughts, just like other creative
mental activities (painting, religion, mathmatics, etc.). Help guide him to
keep focus.
> I have done a bit of research, and talked
> to the pastor at our church about this game, and what I have found is not good!
Not surprised, you didn't contact any experts in the field.
> First of all I found out about a movie made back in 1983 that told the
> story of a group of people that played the Dragons and Dungeons game, it was
> called Mazes and Monsters. In this movie they showed how the game makes people
> have delusions and how the game is harmful to ones mental health. Also, I found
> out that the young boy in Oregon who killed his parents with a shotgunplayed
> this game. And then there was that group of kids down in Mississippi that
> belonged to a secret cult that played this role playing game. They would kill
> animals and mutilate the bodies. I am afraid that if I dont take action and
> confiscate all my sons books, he will be the next one to follow in this path.
Strange, you are afraid he will follow this path, but don't seem to be afraid
that he'll follow the path of crazed lunitics that perform serial murders in
the name of religion/god or that he'll start launching crusades or inquisitions
against anyone who doesn't follow his deity/religion.
A higher percentage of religious zelots have done the things you describe than
have gaming zelots. The point here is that mentally imbalanced people will do
mentally imbalanced things and shouldn't be a part of anything that helps
guide them to those extremes. However, that thing is not the cause of the
problem.
If you really think your son is on the verge of doing those things then he could
be mentally imbalanced and you should get him into counceling and remove him
from any activity which could set him off until he has received the help he
deserves and is better able to handle the influences. This would include
role playing games, religion, military service, or any other activity that
might provide him justification for carrying out the things you suspect.
> His attitude is really bad lately, and I think Dragon and Dungeons is the
> culprit and motivating factor for his odd behavior.
Sorry, mental instability/upbringing is the culprit and gaming, religion, military
service, etc are only justifications for carrying out their designs.
> I will not allow this game to poison the minds of our youth with all this
> killing, raping, pillaging, and looting that you people fantasize about when
> you are playing this game.
In my 20+ years of gaming I have met thousands of gamers and I don't know anyone
who fantasizes about these things. Although I have met many hate filled
religious people who want god to bring judgement down on others or nations
sending people to eternal torment in hell. They are the minority, but so
are the gamers you describe.
> The church group we belong to takes this game as an assault to good decent
> American values.
What a surprise, religious intolerance has been around for a long, long time.
This country was founded on tolerating all religions, even the lack thereof
and not on condeming a harmless activity because of what a few lunitics do.
> Please don't play this game any more because it is really bad and you don't
> even know it. You are all too wrapped up in your own fantasy worlds to see the
> harm that it is doing to you.
The same could be said for your religious beliefs, but I doubt the comment above
would change them, so why do you think it would change anyone else.
>But it is evil, ...
There is no such thing as absolute Good and Evil, it's all relative. Gamers
have a lower incidence rate for performing the acts you mention above than
the incicence rate among the general population or religious population
(probably because gaming provides an outlet most don't have). So labeling
gaming as the cause is really unfair.
>God Help all of you.
Out of curiosity, which god? I'll take all the help I can get, unless it's from
Loki or one like that, they usually end up being more of a hinderance than a
help.
As always any opinion I may have written above are mine and mine alone.
Dave.
a_jedi...@my-dejanews.com
just
> consider myself to be a open minded suburban mom, but this game is starting to
> worry me. When our son started playing the game it did not really bother me
too
> much, but now things have gotten worse. He plays it as much as he can and his
> school work has started to suffer, and what's worse, his attitude has grown
> more withdrawn. He now spends all of his time reading his books and rolling
> dice all the time. I just don't understand it.
>
> he does not say much about it except that they kill monsters and steal
> treasure. So I have taken it upon myself as his parent to find out if this
game
> to the pastor at our church about this game, and what I have found is not
good!
>
> story of a group of people that played the Dragons and Dungeons game, it was
> called Mazes and Monsters. In this movie they showed how the game makes people
> have delusions and how the game is harmful to ones mental health. Also, I
found
> out that the young boy in Oregon who killed his parents with a shotgunplayed
> this game. And then there was that group of kids down in Mississippi that
> belonged to a secret cult that played this role playing game. They would kill
> animals and mutilate the bodies. I am afraid that if I dont take action and
> confiscate all my sons books, he will be the next one to follow in this path.
> culprit and motivating factor for his odd behavior.
>
> killing, raping, pillaging, and looting that you people fantasize about when
> assault to good decent American values. Please don't play this game any more
> because it is really bad and you don't even know it. You are all too wrapped
up
> evil, I have seen this in just the few months our son has played Dragons and
> Dungeons. God Help all of you.
>
> Sincerely,
> Kim Trullinger
>
>
Wow! multiple references from works of fiction, directly (movie reference),
and indirectly (preacher/church to the bible). yet no real statistics.
IF you are real, I feel for you, but do you really think you are the first
mom to have a depressed/withdrawn teenager, you are deluded. If your child is
focusing/obsessing with the game, remove him from it and find the source of
his problem, not the symptoms. Do not seek to call the game itself evil. if a
drunk driver was to kill your son, would you preach the evils of cars, or are
you too lazy to walk to the store thereafter? perhaps you would preach the
evils of drunk driving instead. do that here. warn of obsessive behavior and
depression, not the target of the obsession.
If you are a troll, good one, but try to be more original. talk to pat
roberson for more ideas.
--
I submit that we are both atheist, I simply beleive in one fewer god
than you. When you can understand why you dismiss all other gods, then
you will understand why I dismiss yours.
-Stephen F. Frost
a_jedi...@my-dejanews.com
ptam...@aol.com (PTAMom Kim) ranted:
> Hello,
>
<<snip>>
> I will not allow this game to poison the minds of our youth with all this
> killing, raping, pillaging, and looting that you people fantasize about when
> you are playing this game. The church group we belong to takes this game as an
> assault to good decent American values. Please don't play this game any more
> because it is really bad and you don't even know it. You are all too wrapped
up
> in your own fantasy worlds to see the harm that it is doing to you. But it is
> evil, I have seen this in just the few months our son has played Dragons and
> Dungeons. God Help all of you.
>
> Sincerely,
> Kim Trullinger
>
>
Will not allow? hehe. Will not allow? hehehe. Will not? Bwahahahaaaaa!
try to burn my books. just try, you religious nazi. I have been playing for
more than 15 years, and I am a well respected meber of my community. people
snap, people are unstable. don't ban the postal service because a couple of
people go postal.
a_jedi...@my-dejanews.com
lash...@aol.comDamnSpam (Lashiec V) wrote:
> >Hello,
> >
> > I do not play your game, Dragons and Dungeons, but my 13 year old son
> >just
> >started playing this game a few months ago. Let me start by stating that I
> >consider myself to be a open minded suburban mom, but this game is starting
> >to
> >worry me. When our son started playing the game it did not really bother me
> >too
> >much, but now things have gotten worse. He plays it as much as he can and his
> >school work has started to suffer, and what's worse, his attitude has grown
> >more withdrawn. He now spends all of his time reading his books and rolling
> >dice all the time. I just don't understand it.
>
suicidal
> and I would pretty much lash out at whom ever crossed my path. When I started
> playing D&D it got me away from the people who were causeing these influences,
> the game required me to acutally think(although sometimes I still dont) and my
> grades did improve, expecialy in english and math, which are now 2 of my
> strongest subjects, which I do credit the game for helping with(spelling is a
> completly different thing though).
>
> >First of all I found out about a movie made back in 1983 that told the
> >story of a group of people that played the Dragons and Dungeons game, it was
> >called Mazes and Monsters. In this movie they showed how the game makes
> >people
> >have delusions and how the game is harmful to ones mental health. Also, I
> >found
> >out that the young boy in Oregon who killed his parents with a shotgunplayed
> >this game. And then there was that group of kids down in Mississippi that
> >belonged to a secret cult that played this role playing game. They would kill
> >animals and mutilate the bodies. I am afraid that if I dont take action and
> >confiscate all my sons books, he will be the next one to follow in this path.
> >His attitude is really bad lately, and I think Dragon and Dungeons is the
> >culprit and motivating factor for his odd behavior.
>
> remember correctly. So consider what you take from hollywood for a basis for
an
> opion.> I will not allow this game to poison the minds of our youth with all
> this
>
> >killing, raping, pillaging, and looting that you people fantasize about when
> >you are playing this game.
>
> people(crusades, the witch hunts, the exploration of south america) I dont
know
> about raping, but I do believe they pillaged and looted(I wouldnt quote me on
> that though).
The knights templare were the worst for rape, they considered it a favor to
the girl to grace her with such a holy child, whether she wanted it or not.
>
> >The church group we belong to takes this game as an assault to good decent
> American values.
>
> opions are like assholes, everybody has one and they all stink
>
> .>Please don't play this game any more
> >because it is really bad and you don't even know it. You are all too wrapped
> >up
> >in your own fantasy worlds to see the harm that it is doing to you
>
> Well, before I got into it I was a druggie and was pretty much a teen aged
> thief. And perhaps unlike you and your church I can tell the difference
between
> Pretend and Real life.
>
> >But it is
> >evil, I have seen this in just the few months our son has played Dragons and
> >Dungeons. God Help all of you.
>
> well I was raised souther baptist and by them paying too much attention to any
> one thing, having fun(legaly that is), or pretty much having a life and opions
> that are not approved by them, is what they saw as evil things. but then
thats
> just my personal exspirence.
a_jedi...@my-dejanews.com
"Rune R Christensen" <r...@post.tele.dk> wrote:
> Quote of the year! This should have been said much earlier.
>
> >Because while you point your finger at D&D in piety, you may miss the
> >true reason for your son's problems.
>
>
wohoo! I agree. this will live in infamy. you have created a web saying.
gx9000
news:76tva3$qm2$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
>C'mon people. Were supposed to be adults here.
>
>I just posted a letter to "Concerned Parent" and it probably will not be
>read, even though it's roughly four pages long, and took me quite a while
to
>write.
>
>I'm not complaining about lost time, I'm telling people about lost
>opportunities.
>
>We had a parent on here. (possibly...) And they were obviously needing an
>education of sorts. A good deal of that education was the phrase "opinions
>are like ***holes etc etc."
Uh, no one particularly said that, but then again the "parent" answered
gratefully, so the ends justify the means.
Thomas Harris
excellently expressed, but I find myself wondering how deeply you've
reviewed your opinion and that of your church group. From my
understanding, Dungeons and Dragons or any role-playing game is more
akin to acting or high drama than cult worship.
William Shakespear, a genius before his time made many references
to death and the after life in his plays. As have many well reknowned
movies and books by highly agreeable sources. If I may be so bold, I
think that if you were to take an unbias look at the world, you'd
discover that basic moral decay is far more responsible for what you are
seeing, than a time consming game... and it is just a game.
People bring what they are to whatever they do... be it work,
home, or play. It is that personality that you must be careful of. I
believe this is a critical lapse in your overall conclusion. If
shakespearian actors started butchring, raping and looting the audiance,
we would blame the actors and hold them responsible for their crimes.
Certainly, only a unthinking zealot would try to say that the play
posessed the actors into their actions. If you want to really
understand what is going on in this game, and I dare say with your son,
perhaps you would try a less hard lined approach in figuring him out.
I am a devote christian, and loving husband. I train in
matial arts for 7 years. I was a graphic designer and still illustrate
childrens books. I believe strongly in virtue and morality. I also
played Dungeons and Dragons for 11years. I simply offer to you the
same suggestion that I gave my own parents, several years back. "
Dungeons and dragons isn't about demons or Gods or mighty wizard. It
isn't about killing or enslaving. It's a story where a group of friends
try to do the right thing...."
Start there, a story and a game and nothing more. You might
even find a thirteen year old that wants to share more of himself with
you than most.
Sincerely
Thomas Harris
Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman
> Hello,
>
> I do not play your game, Dragons and Dungeons, but my 13 year old
> son just started playing this game a few months ago. Let me start by
> stating that I consider myself to be a open minded suburban mom, but
> this game is starting to worry me. When our son started playing the game
> it did not really bother me too much, but now things have gotten worse.
> He plays it as much as he can and his school work has started to suffer,
> and what's worse, his attitude has grown more withdrawn. He now spends
> all of his time reading his books and rolling dice all the time. I just
> don't understand it.
If someone would break it down for you into short sentences comprised of
words with no more than two syllables each, perhaps you would. I'll try:
Your son does not study, or maybe he does but can't learn. This is not
the fault of AD&D.
> I have asked him to talk about the game and tell me what he is
> doing, but he does not say much about it except that they kill monsters
> and steal treasure.
Your son seems to have some learning disabilities. Not only is he failing
school, but he doesn't understand the game very well.
> So I have taken it upon myself as his parent to find
> out if this game is harmful to his mental well being. I have done a bit
> of research, and talked to the pastor at our church about this game, and
> what I have found is not good!
It's always convenient to have someone who will do your thinking for you.
Saves you the trouble.
> First of all I found out about a movie made back in 1983 that told
> the story of a group of people that played the Dragons and Dungeons
> game, it was called Mazes and Monsters. In this movie they showed how
> the game makes people have delusions and how the game is harmful to ones
> mental health.
Thank God they tell it just like it is in Hollywood.
> Also, I found out that the young boy in Oregon who killed his parents
> with a shotgunplayed this game. And then there was that group of kids
> down in Mississippi that belonged to a secret cult that played this role
> playing game. They would kill animals and mutilate the bodies.
Actually, they didn't play AD&D. I would know. My niece knows everyone
involved in the shooting, and was in the classroom when it happened. She
said they didn't play AD&D, though they were asked about it. The Pearl,
Ms. Police are a sad collection of incompetents that are looking for
scapegoats. They were a big fan of Star Wars, however. Hey, you think
they're the culprit?!
> I am afraid that if I dont take action and confiscate all my
> sons books, he will be the next one to follow in this path. His
> attitude is really bad lately, and I think Dragon and Dungeons is the
> culprit and motivating factor for his odd behavior.
Please do so. Take his AD&D books, and in the fashion of the truly
enlightened, burn them. Burn all his CDs, tapes and comic books too, and
forbid him from watching any movies or television. Protect his soft,
fragile, impressionable mind, and allow your pastor to do his thinking for
him through you.
> I will not allow this game to poison the minds of our youth with
> all this killing, raping, pillaging, and looting that you people
> fantasize about when you are playing this game.
I don't fantasize about things such as that. Those who do are pathetic,
pus-filled, infected tumors on the ass of the world, much like overly
zealous, reactionary, unthinking soccer moms and their little organi-
zations that presume to know what is good and evil and feel compelled
dictate their wisdom to us.
> The church group we belong to takes this game as an assault to good
> decent American values.
And let me guess: so are homosexuals, right? And Disney for their anti-
homophobic policies? And public schools for teaching evolution? And
those who don't want the Bible taught in public schools? And Catholics?
And anyone that disagrees with anything your church group's leaders--and
by default the rest of you--declare to be gospel?
> Please don't play this game any more because it is really bad and you
> don't even know it. You are all too wrapped up in your own fantasy
> worlds to see the harm that it is doing to you. But it is evil, I have
> seen this in just the few months our son has played Dragons and
> Dungeons. God Help all of you.
Show us the harm. Show us proof.
> Sincerely,
> Kim Trullinger
---------------------------------
| Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman |
---------------------------------
You seem to have mistaken me for someone else. (Perhaps someone who is
actually impressed by your tweeting and flapping?) --Terry Austin
I always wondered why the Greek gods and Norse gods could jump out of
foreheads and emerge from the sea full grown, while both Christ and the
Antichrist have to be born and grow up the old fashioned way.
--AstaeGloss
Dammit, Jim, I'm a doctor, not your cute little dancing monkey in a pink
tutu. --Bones, from a never-aired episode of Star Trek
Zimri
PTAMomKim: But it is evil, ...
>There is no such thing as absolute Good and Evil, it's all relative.
Hah ! Bah ! Pfiffle! Humbug ! Rubbish ! Bollocks !
Maybe YOU'RE evil ! Onward Christian soooolldiers...
-- Z
PS. Actually, I kind of agree with you. I'm just trolling for yet
another good/evil RGFD flamewar.
<snicker>
BlakGard
>started playing this game a few months ago. Let me start by stating that I
>consider myself to be a open minded suburban mom, but this game is starting
>to
>worry me. When our son started playing the game it did not really bother me
>too
>much, but now things have gotten worse. He plays it as much as he can and his
>school work has started to suffer
As a player of the game for 20 years, and as a new parent, I sympathize with
you. When I was young, there were times when I would definitely slack in school
and emmerse myself in entertainment, whether it was video games, TV, Dungeons
and Dragons, or some other pasttime. When this would happen, it wouldn't be too
much longer before my mother found out and explained to me that it was in my
best interest to study (not exactly in those words, though -- it usually
entailed screaming, harsh words, and/or a rough grab and shaking). Every kid
goes through a time of uncertainty in their teens. Just because your son's
grades are dropping and his attitude is changing does not mean that the game is
at fault (and I know you did not state that it was).
Perhaps there is some other reason for his change? Are you and your husband
getting along? Is he having "girl trouble?" Is he having "guy trouble?" Is he
simply being a kid who thinks school doesn't matter right now?
I'll be the first to admit that the game is not for everyone. Though most
people can discern reality from fantasy, not all can. I would suggest that you
and the boy's father sit down and talk about things (easier said than done, I'm
sure -- but well worth the time). Chances are, you will find a deeper rooted
problem that has absolutely nothing to do with Dungeons and Dragons.
>I have asked him to talk about the game and tell me what he is doing, but
>he does not say much about it except that they kill monsters and steal
>treasure.
In truth, this is absolutely all the game is.
>So I have taken it upon myself as his parent to find out if this game
>is harmful to his mental well being. I have done a bit of research, and
>talked
>to the pastor at our church about this game, and what I have found is not
>good!
This was your first mistake. NEVER EVER ask your pastor about things that he
has no intelligence about. Chances are he's never played the game, or known
anyone who has, or if he did, then he didn't know they played.
>First of all I found out about a movie made back in 1983 that told the
>story of a group of people that played the Dragons and Dungeons game, it was
>called Mazes and Monsters.
Yes, we all probably know the movie well, and the movie was 100% hype. Nothing
in it was real.
>In this movie they showed how the game makes people
>have delusions and how the game is harmful to ones mental health.
This has been proven wrong several times, not only by the US government, but
many noted psychologists. As it turns out, people who play Dungeons and Dragons
and 10 times less likely to commit suicide or violent crimes or abuse drugs
than the national average.
As I read your message, I'm strongly convinced that you did not write it to
gain any insight, instead you wish to push your views about something you know
aboslutely nothing about, and what you do know are blatant lies.
The game is not about killing, unless you call war killing. The game is not
about raping. In 20 years of playing never has any character that I've seen
raped or been raped -- or the players, mind you. The game is not about
pillaging and looting, unless you consider archealogy theft. Most of the
treasure that is found in the game comes from buried and forgotten tombs of
ancient peoples and creatures.
The more I read of your message, the more that I'm inclined to say that your
son's only problem is his parents.
-=[ The BlakGard ]=-
"Somewhere there's danger;
somewhere there's injustice,
and somewhere else the tea is getting cold!"
gx9000
news:76tulr$q1o$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
Uh, hold on a second here. Before you rant on (oh, too late), we have
officially come to the conclusion that this post was a hoax, considering the
time factor in between the two posts.
Oh well you posted it already, seems like a waste of time.
God knows what the "concerned mom" aka "two-headed troll" was trying to
achieve by posting that message.
MAG-Pie
off, all I will say is this:
Consider the possibility that the game isn't a Cause, as much
as a symptom of a much worse problem.
...and through the wire,
Marc
Craig L Wigda
Zimri <zim...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>dk...@cas.org wrote
>
>PTAMomKim: But it is evil, ...
>>There is no such thing as absolute Good and Evil, it's all relative.
Only if you do not activily follow "any" religion. I'm not an expert on
all the religions out there but of those I know they all have a definition
of good and evil.
Of the religions that I've read about "Killing someone with malice (sp)"
is evil. I believe this is what is called in the US as a murder 1 criminal
charge (you went out with the intent of killing this person).
Some people might argue that this might prove a natural good vs evil even
for a non-religious focoused country (no single dominate religous group)
but the murder 1 type charges date back far enough in law that the law
makers were religious.
No good and evil are not relative. If you think that then just apply
any act you might think is "good" that others might think is evil and have
it done to your self. Yes this does include the Christain crusades that always
appear in the good vs evil threads. They had good intentions but their actions
were evil.
>
>Hah ! Bah ! Pfiffle! Humbug ! Rubbish ! Bollocks !
>
>Maybe YOU'RE evil ! Onward Christian soooolldiers...
>
>
>PS. Actually, I kind of agree with you. I'm just trolling for yet
>another good/evil RGFD flamewar.
>
><snicker>
Oh GOD help me I just feed a troll. :(
Oh but wait trolls in D&D can not regenerate if they are burned. If this
turns into a flame war does that mean it will die?
Craig Wigda
- Increase the Entropy in the Universe, Have Children. -
Matthew Filla
wrote:
>No good and evil are not relative. If you think that then just apply
>any act you might think is "good" that others might think is evil and have
>it done to your self. Yes this does include the Christain crusades that always
>appear in the good vs evil threads. They had good intentions but their actions
>were evil.
Actually, I think good intentions were few and far between in the
Crusades. A lot of knights went to the East to gain power, fame, or
fortune - many of them were second or third sons who didn't have an
inheritance, and wanted to get some land of their own. I'm sure some
went primarily to "save the Holy Land from the infidel" (and you can
argue about the goodness of that intention as well), but there were an
awful lot of greedy, power-hungry bastards among the crusaders.
Matt
--
Consulting Dragon -==(UDIC)==-|"Don't worry. If she can lay the
(aka Matthew Filla) | bricks, she will definitely have
Middleton, WI | no problems with a meat cleaver."
matthe...@teldta.com | - Great Siberian Dragon
jkn...@camino.delmar.edu
ptam...@aol.com (PTAMom Kim) wrote:
Dear Kim,
I would like to thank you for sharing your views on the role-playing hobby
with us on the rec.games.frp.dnd newsgroup. It's understandable and
commendable that you take such an interest in your son's hobbies and any
possible detrimental effects they may have.
However, I fear that your opinions, however genuine and well-intentioned, may
not have the benefit of complete or accurate information backing them. This
is not to say that your research has been inadequate; only that what you have
read or heard may suffer from a lack of understanding of the hobby or what it
involves (or does not involve).
I am a 26 year-old-male, with a degree in Journalism and a wonderful job in a
community college. I've been playing Dungeons & Dragons, as well as various
other Role-Playing Games for a little over 11 years now. In this way, I'm
merely an adolescent in the hobby; many posters on this newsgroup have been
playing the game since it first appeared in the 1970s.
The bulk of my friends I have met through games like these, and they have
been my friends for years. They are all wonderful people. A few
eccentricities aside, I can promise you that not one of them subscribes to
any notion that these games are anything but a form of creative
entertainment. We play these games to relax, and no harm has come to any of
us (or our loved ones) because of it.
I've been a member of many organizations devoted to these games, and have met
hundreds of other fans of the games (called simply "gamers" for simplicity).
To be perfectly honest, I can't say that all of them have been what I
consider well- balanced, but the staggering majority of the gamers I've met
were otherwise normal people with jobs, bills, kids, spouses, and religious
beliefs.
Role-Playing Games (RPGs) are, simply put, games that involve creating
stories on the fly about characters that the players invent. There is no
gameboard, as the action and events in the game take place in the players'
imaginations. Dice are used to determine the outcome of certain events that
are left to chance, such as whether or not a character can climb a tree, read
a forgotten language, or evade an attack.
It is true that many RPGs involve imaginary violence. However, it is my
opinion that the violence depicted or imagined in the course of a
role-playing session is in no way comparable to the more graphic computer
games now on the market. RPGs allow players to tone the graphic detail to a
level they are comfortable with. This is quite a bit more leeway than they
are afforded with various video games or many television programs.
As for those players that choose to "enhance" their games with real-life
violence or "occult" activities, let me assure you that the VAST majority of
gamers consider these individuals as abominable as you probably do. Perhaps
even more so, for every time a newspaper or radio program focuses on someone
who did himself or another harm allegedly due to a role-playing game's
influence, it only serves to worsen the undeserved bad reputation that we
gamers have to deal with.
> First of all I found out about a movie made back in 1983 that told the
> story of a group of people that played the Dragons and Dungeons game, it was
> called Mazes and Monsters. In this movie they showed how the game makes people
> have delusions and how the game is harmful to ones mental health.
Yes, I saw that movie, and I felt insulted. I assure you that virtually none
of the events depicted in that film have ANY basis in normal gamer behavior.
There are unfortunate exceptions, but they are few and certainly not condoned
or adopted by the rest of us. Gamers are no more or less susceptible to
mental illness or deviant behavior than anyone else in the world; gaming
itself has little or no impact on such behavior that I've seen, anyway.
Also, I found
> out that the young boy in Oregon who killed his parents with a shotgunplayed
> this game.
Based on my considerable experience with this hobby and exposure to gamers of
every stripe, I can say this with confidence: If a certain gamer manifests
some aberrant attitudes or behavior, these stem from a source much more
deep-seated and complex than a mere role-playing game. The boy in Oregon
suffered from problems that he had likely harbored his entire life; Dungeons
& Dragons had nothing to do with them.
And then there was that group of kids down in Mississippi that
> belonged to a secret cult that played this role playing game. They would kill
> animals and mutilate the bodies.
Assuming these stories are true, these kids need serious psychological help.
In their case, it is not the game that is goading them into committing these
actions. They are probably using the game as some sort of outlet for their
emotional problems; problems that would exist with or without playing the
game.
I am afraid that if I dont take action and
> confiscate all my sons books, he will be the next one to follow in this path.
> His attitude is really bad lately, and I think Dragon and Dungeons is the
> culprit and motivating factor for his odd behavior.
I have no children, so I'm less than qualified to tell you how to raise
yours. However, I can tell you this: If your son does indeed have emotional
problems, they are not being caused or encouraged by Dungeons & Dragons or
any other role- playing game. On the same note, simply confiscating his
books will not solve any of these problems. More likely, it will only drive
your son to be even more aloof.
Role-playing games are attractive because they give players the opportunity to
create a world where THEY are in control, a luxury that the real world rarely
affords us. This is especially appealing to teens and pre-teens, because they
are coming into adulthood, but are still largely unable to control their
environment. Even though I have no children, I can say this based on personal
experience (I grew up playing these games) and that of others.
Yes, some few people take it too far. It's unfortunate, because they're
missing the point. RPGs are only games, and I dare say that 99.999% of
gamers worldwide realize that.
On another note, I've spoken to many of the people who write, edit, and
design these very games. They are wonderful, friendly, intelligent, creative
people who are interested only in creating a game that is fun and
entertaining. They are not monsters. They are just like you and me. They
have absolutely no intention of writing books that cause kids to run away,
inflict harm on others, or disobey their parents.
If you'll indulge me for just a while longer, I would like to make a couple
suggestions:
1) Before confiscating your son's game books, I suggest you give them a good
read. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at what you find. I also
suggest locating and reading copies of DRAGON Magazine, a long-running
periodical devoted to RPGs, Dungeons & Dragons in particular. While the
articles therein may be confusing to someone who doesn't play, I think they
will demonstrate that gamers are mostly just creative people enjoying a
fascinating, but harmless, hobby.
2) Gather information from individuals who involve themselves in the hobby,
not just monitor it. Posting to this newsgroup is an excellent first step.
Here are several helpful Web sites that deal with Dungeons & Dragons and RPGs
in a variety of ways:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/d_a_d.htm This is an excellent, thorough
and objective essay on fantasy role-playing games, and it addresses all of
your concerns (and many others) in well-researched detail. If you visit only
one Web site that I've provided for you, PLEASE make it this one. This site
also provides many good links dealing with RPGs and information about them.
I've been playing these games for many years, and this site has still taught
me a great deal.
http://www.tsr.com This is the website of TSR, Inc., the company that
produces and distributes the D&D game, among others. The company was
purchased recently by Wizards of the Coast, which can be found at
www.wizards.com.
http://sac.uky.edu/~mlmorr0/faq/rgfdfaq.html This is the FAQ file for this
newsgroup, and it is jam-packed with information about the game and hobby, as
well as this group. It is compiled and maintained by one of our long-time
posters, easily one of the most professional and intelligent gamers I've
encountered.
In closing, I wish you the best of luck in making your decisions regarding
this hobby and your son's involvement therein.
Very sincerely,
Jay Knioum
jkn...@delmar.edu
Mad...@aol.com
(feel free to send me e-mail or an Instant Message
if you'd like to discuss this further!)
David K. Lewis
> In article <76urh1$b7n$1...@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> Zimri <zim...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >dk...@cas.org wrote
> >
> >PTAMomKim: But it is evil, ...
> >>There is no such thing as absolute Good and Evil, it's all relative.
>
> Only if you do not activily follow "any" religion. I'm not an expert on
> all the religions out there but of those I know they all have a definition
> of good and evil.
And that definition is based on 2 subjectivities. First and foremost is the
subjective opinion of good and evil from the deity in question and second in
the followers subjective opinion of that deities opinion (which may not
actually agree with the god's).
> Of the religions that I've read about "Killing someone with malice (sp)"
> is evil. I believe this is what is called in the US as a murder 1 criminal
> charge (you went out with the intent of killing this person).
I know many people who believe that Murder 1 can be a good thing (i.e., many
people then and now supported the position that sending someone out to murder
Hitler would be a good/not evil act).
> No good and evil are not relative.
Sure they are.
> If you think that then just apply any act you might think is "good" that
> others might think is evil and have it done to your self.
Hmm, if I were destitute and stole some food to feed my family I would view that
as good, but many would view it as evil. And if someone who was destitute stole
some food from me to feed their family, I would still view that as good.
What's the point?
> Yes this does include the Christain crusades that always
> appear in the good vs evil threads. They had good intentions but their actions
> were evil.
Wow, that's the first time I've heard that. I've always heard evil intents and
evil actions with propaganda for the masses describing good intent to get public
support. Sort of like politics today :).
> >Maybe YOU'RE evil ! Onward Christian soooolldiers...
I'm sure in someone's view, I am.
> >PS. Actually, I kind of agree with you. I'm just trolling for yet
> >another good/evil RGFD flamewar.
I posted some responses in case you actually believe some of them since you only
kind of agree with me.
As always any opinions I may have written above are mine and mine alone.
Dave.
Rune R Christensen
>>
>>> Hmm yes, it probably will. From now on we'll have to check out all
>people
>>> who come in here, no matter who they say they are. No one will be
>above
>>> suspicion.........come to think about it, TC, you seem to be
>behaving a
>>> little odd at the moment........HEY, IT'S RON! EVERYONE LOOK, TC IS
>ACTUALLY
>>> RON!!! :-)
>>
>>I think he might finally be on to us. Actually, everyone but you
>here really is
>>Ron.
>
>
I see now, with absolute clarity, that JRR Tolkien was talking about Ron's
multiple personalities!
*Rons* of Power
Three *Rons* for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne,
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One *Ron* to rule them all, One *Ron* to find them,
One *Ron* to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
:-)
Rune R Christensen
Curse
hilarious. I almost choked from laughter while reading this. PTAMom Kim, I
thank you for one of the best laughs I've had in a while. By the way, that
sure is a great screen name you've got there too. Oh man, I can't stop
laughing.
-Curse
PTAMom Kim wrote in message
<19990103031455...@ng-fp1.aol.com>...
>Hello,
>
> I do not play your game, Dragons and Dungeons, but my 13 year old son
just
>started playing this game a few months ago. Let me start by stating that I
>consider myself to be a open minded suburban mom, but this game is starting
to
>worry me. When our son started playing the game it did not really bother me
too
>much, but now things have gotten worse. He plays it as much as he can and
his
>school work has started to suffer, and what's worse, his attitude has grown
>more withdrawn. He now spends all of his time reading his books and rolling
>dice all the time. I just don't understand it.
>
> I have asked him to talk about the game and tell me what he is doing,
but
>he does not say much about it except that they kill monsters and steal
>treasure. So I have taken it upon myself as his parent to find out if this
game
>is harmful to his mental well being. I have done a bit of research, and
talked
>to the pastor at our church about this game, and what I have found is not
good!
>
> First of all I found out about a movie made back in 1983 that told the
>story of a group of people that played the Dragons and Dungeons game, it
was
>called Mazes and Monsters. In this movie they showed how the game makes
people
>have delusions and how the game is harmful to ones mental health. Also, I
found
>out that the young boy in Oregon who killed his parents with a
shotgunplayed
>this game. And then there was that group of kids down in Mississippi that
>belonged to a secret cult that played this role playing game. They would
kill
>animals and mutilate the bodies. I am afraid that if I dont take action and
>confiscate all my sons books, he will be the next one to follow in this
path.
>His attitude is really bad lately, and I think Dragon and Dungeons is the
>culprit and motivating factor for his odd behavior.
>
> I will not allow this game to poison the minds of our youth with all
this
>killing, raping, pillaging, and looting that you people fantasize about
when
>you are playing this game. The church group we belong to takes this game as
an
>assault to good decent American values. Please don't play this game any
more
>because it is really bad and you don't even know it. You are all too
wrapped up
>in your own fantasy worlds to see the harm that it is doing to you. But it
is
>evil, I have seen this in just the few months our son has played Dragons
and
>Dungeons. God Help all of you.
>
>Sincerely,
>Kim Trullinger
>
Stephen Cofer
they tell you...
-a concerned gamer
"...dreamed a god up and called it Christianity..."
"heresy"-NIN
Curse wrote in message <36970...@news3.paonline.com>...
SirAyastar
>You see what happens to people that go to church and believe all the
>lies they tell you...
And it's horrible if you get into that music too, it brainwashes ya.....
>"...dreamed a god up and called it Christianity..."
>"heresy"-NIN
Can we ease up on the flame bait?
"Nobody ever said anything worth Quoting" --Anonymous
Return my adderess to it's undiluted capitalist state from it's present
misguided state, go ahead the computer says you should and the
computer is your friend.............Right?
dreemer
enough with their child until after a problem has appeared......as a father
i find this ridiculous......some of my best friedns and players are devout
catholics and methodists....i even have one pastor that plays an elven
fighter/mage.......this lady needs to do more research that is not biased
before she points the finger.....if your soin has a problem look beyond the
excuse and find the problem......
Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman
> You see what happens to people that go to church and believe all the lies
> they tell you...
>
> -a concerned gamer
>
> "...dreamed a god up and called it Christianity..."
> "heresy"-NIN
Fuck you.
First, Stephen, you apparently haven't the mind to know how to snip a
post. It's a waste of bandwidth when you leave 100+ lines of text so you
can make an ill-concieved, moronic, one-line response (much as you your-
self are a waste of flesh). In fact, whether or not you would have
snipped the text, most one-line responses generally aren't worth the
trouble and don't enrich the discussion at hand, though typing any more
than a few words at a time would probably be too much of a strain on your
doubtlessly drug-addled brain.
Second, and most importantly, we don't need religion-bashing on here.
There are people of many paradigms on this NG, Stephen. We have atheists,
agnostics, neo-pagans, probably a Satanist or two, and--yes--Christians.
Intelligent, non-Bible banging, open-minded, role-playing Christians. We
do an admirable job of not tearing each others' religions (or lack down
for the most part, and insted we discuss the topic on hand (gaming). I,
personally, have problems with all the above belief systems, but I'm not
so petty and purile as to start venting against them.
I have news for you: Christian-bashing is old hat, dear boy, and isn't at
all avant-garde. There are lots of little chain-smoking teenie-bopper
white kids from the suburbs who adore Marilyn Manson and NIN, who wear
spiked dog collars with their matching black lipstick and fingernail
polish, who have their pale pockmarked faces pierced so much they make
Pinhead look like Pat Robertson, and are soooo sure they are being soooo
rebellious and soooo dark when they look and act and think just like every
other freak out there, and oh how oppressed they are when their yuppie
parents only pull $50,000 a year and still won't buy their Marlboro Lights
for them. Oh, the tragedy. There are other whiners out there, Stephen,
that haven't the insight to seperate the religion from those who abuse it.
And we're not any more impressed with you than we are with the thousands
of other bastards who have vocal beefs against Christianity or whatever.
So please, Stephen, log off right now and go listen to your Nine Inch
Nails. Listen to Trent, really listen to his poser gospel of despair and
angst and darkness, and open your heart to him. You will soon realize the
pointlessness of it all, that life means nothing. At this point, go stick
your head in the oven, or rev the car up in a closed garage, or perhaps
you will prefer to stick that spike into your vein in a locked bathroom.
Whatever the case may be, hopefully you won't be consuming your parent's
money or our precious bandwidth and oxygen anymore.
Bitch.
---------------------------------
| Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman |
---------------------------------
You seem to have mistaken me for someone else. (Perhaps someone who is
actually impressed by your tweeting and flapping?) --Terry Austin
Samaria must bear her guilt, for she rebelled against her God. Her people
will be killed by the invading army, her babies dashed to death against
the ground, her pregnant women ripped open with a sword. --Hosea 13:16
Go back to licking the stains on the carpet left behind when your mongrel
dragged his shitty arse across the carpet, you indolent monkey fucking
wanksplash. --Sinbad The Sailor
Thomas Lund
> Kael Greyhawke wrote:
> >
> > If it walks like a troll and talks like a troll...
> >
>
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's a government
conspiracy!
MCarrasco
all.....MOST christians won't apply thier own rule of faith......The Apostle
Paul wrote....Test all spirits....aka teaching....yet when the 700Club tells
them something, they take it at face value.....Instead of testing it to see if
that teaching is inline with the word of God....Most of the time it
isn't....The Word of the 700Club is to fear AD&D, yet God did not give us a
Spirit of Fear.....God tell us not ot fear many tuimes in the Bible, yet the
700Club tell us to fear this and that!......who would you believe God or the
700Club? Paul tells us that since a teaching does not match the Word of God it
is the "Doctrin of Demons"!....Wouldn't that make those guys on the 700Club
Stanist? Revelations tells us that Satan would find his way into the Chucrh in
the Last days, and it has...... in the form of the 700Club...... posing as an
angel of light.
Rev. Mark J Carrasco DD
Mr. Peabody
--------------------
After watching all three hours of the Clinton questioning, I thought to myself
" In order to hear this kind of talk, any other time, a person would have to
pay $5.49 for the first minute and $2.99 for each minuet after."
Terry Austin
>The real problem is the fact that MOST Christians......note I didn't say
>all.....MOST christians won't apply thier own rule of faith
Bullshit. Utter bigotry, from a Christian hating fanatic.
>....The Apostle
>Paul wrote....Test all spirits....aka teaching....
My, you must be brilliant, to reduce 2000 years of theology to a few buzz
phrases.
>yet when the 700Club tells them something, they take it at face value.....
>Instead of testing it to see if
>that teaching is inline with the word of God....Most of the time it
>isn't....The Word of the 700Club is to fear AD&D, yet God did not give us a
>Spirit of Fear.....God tell us not ot fear many tuimes in the Bible, yet the
>700Club tell us to fear this and that!......who would you believe God or the
>700Club? Paul tells us that since a teaching does not match the Word of God it
>is the "Doctrin of Demons"!....Wouldn't that make those guys on the 700Club
>Stanist? Revelations tells us that Satan would find his way into the Chucrh in
>the Last days, and it has...... in the form of the 700Club...... posing as an
>angel of light.
700 Club isn't Christian. Nor do they represent *most* people who claim
Christianity as their religion. Unless you have evidence that they have a
hundred million viewers or more.
What a fucking idiot. Go learn something about what you attack, lest you
look a fool. On second thought, don't. You're far more entertaining with
your foot in your mouth.
Terry Austin
tau...@hyperbooks.com
http://www.hyperbooks.com
Public keys available at http://www.hyperbooks.com/keys.txt
HughMcHugh
>From: ptam...@aol.com (PTAMom Kim)
>Date: 1/3/99 3:14 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <19990103031455...@ng-fp1.aol.com>
This is a brilliant job of Trolling. I am sure you have sucked many people
into a blazing discussion with you.
On the ludicrously off chance you are actually serious, then why don't YOU read
the books and find out what it's all about.
Bravo.
Hugh McHugh
"Adventure! People talked about the idea as if it was something worthwhile,
rather than a mess of bad food, no sleep and strange people inexplicably trying
to stick pointed objects in bits of you." - Terry Pratchett, Interesting Times
MCarrasco
>
Is seems that you are the Bigoted Chrtistian hating fanatic since I am a
christian!
>My, you must be brilliant, to reduce 2000 years of theology to a few buzz
>phrases.
This shows that your are NOT a Christian as you obsious don't follow the
teaching of the Bible! Therefore your point is moot you bigoted troll!
>700 Club isn't Christian. Nor do they represent *most* people who claim
>Christianity as their religion. Unless you have evidence that they have a
>hundred million viewers or more.
Do you have evidence that they don't? The 700club is shown all over the world
including Italy, Guam, England...etc. I know because I've been there!
>What a fucking idiot. Go learn something about what you attack, lest you
>look a fool. On second thought, don't. You're far more entertaining with
>your foot in your mouth.
I know what I attack as I hate all religions that claim to faollow the Bible
yet dress-up Jesus to be that which he isn't! It is the 700club that spent
$20,000 on a couch I know that becasue my aunt wanted a couch "Just like the
700club" but when we found out how much it cost it made us realize what the
700club is doing with the monmey people send to them! But by you anger it is
plain to see that you like the 700club and therefore are just a guilt of saying
that "AD&D is evil"
Now that we see that you are not a Christian you have no place attacking me! I
pointed out a FACT!So the only person looking like a fool here is YOu as you
have done ON MANY POINTS IN THIS NEWGROUP!!
Stephen Cofer
anything to do with devils, demons, death, or whatever, along comes someone
from the Christian faith denouncing it and acting all silly and rash, not
willing to actually accept that the thing in question could *possibly* not
be to blame for bad behavior on their child's part (or what/whoever they
feel is being corrupted by it). Apologies, I suppose, for the short answer;
I know and realize that not all Christians are this way, but they always
seem to be everywhere, trying to get their way and supposedly having the
Word Of God on their side (ppht) to strengthen their argument. And the Nine
Inch Nails reference in my sig just seemed so appropriate for this post.
Don't judge a person by one post.
Many wars, much hatred, and much sorrow in the world comes from religion;
even though I believe in God, since I cannot accept that the balance and
beauty in this world cannot have come by chance, I do not believe most of
what the world's religions teach us.
Sue me, damn it.
DOKTOR_7
--
"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself
does not become a monster ... when you gaze long into the Abyss
the Abyss also gazes into you ..."
--Friedrich Nietzsche
krysta...@my-dejanews.com
tas...@hyperbooks.com wrote:
> mcar...@aol.comNOSPAM (MCarrasco) wrote:
>
> >The real problem is the fact that MOST Christians......note I didn't say
> >all.....MOST christians won't apply thier own rule of faith
>
>
> >Paul wrote....Test all spirits....aka teaching....
>
> phrases.
>
> >Instead of testing it to see if
> >that teaching is inline with the word of God....Most of the time it
> >isn't....The Word of the 700Club is to fear AD&D, yet God did not give us a
> >Spirit of Fear.....God tell us not ot fear many tuimes in the Bible, yet the
> >700Club tell us to fear this and that!......who would you believe God or the
> >700Club? Paul tells us that since a teaching does not match the Word of God it
> >is the "Doctrin of Demons"!....Wouldn't that make those guys on the 700Club
> >Stanist? Revelations tells us that Satan would find his way into the Chucrh in
> >the Last days, and it has...... in the form of the 700Club...... posing as an
> >angel of light.
>
> Christianity as their religion. Unless you have evidence that they have a
> hundred million viewers or more.
>
> look a fool. On second thought, don't. You're far more entertaining with
> your foot in your mouth.
>
> tau...@hyperbooks.com
> http://www.hyperbooks.com
> Public keys available at http://www.hyperbooks.com/keys.txt
>
Actually, I think you both earn the brilliancy award. Gimme a break on this
stuff, didn't you ever hear that two of the worst things to discuss are
religion, and more religion? Especially to a diverse group of people with
completely different beleifs? Nobody is going to win this argument (except
the people who kept out of it...go figure) and, you'll wind up looking like
COMPLETE idiots (as opposed to the not so complete kind) in the end.
and if it helps taking this medicine, I fall under the same category. (only I
stopped the religion battle after one post)
This is going beyond the realm of intelligent or funny conversation, (which
is what I expect when choosing posts to read) and, pretty soon, I expect to
start receiving posts that look like the following....
<#1> Oh yeah? Well, @&^$ YOU!!! Your wrong, dumb*&$!!!
<#2> That's not what your mom said last night!!
<#1> Screw you!! #2, I'm right and you know it!!
<#2> Are not!!
As you can see, this IS intelligent conversation at it's finest. I just love
watching elementary school age children fight.
MCarrasco
>watching elementary school age children fight.
>
Please not I did not respond to the inane child know as Terry Austin. Thank you
gx9000
message news:Pine.LNX.3.96.99010...@ocean.otr.usm.edu...
The term is goth. Actually, no, the term is "oh my god I'm so rebelious"
laughable freak.
>So please, Stephen, log off right now and go listen to your Nine Inch
>Nails. Listen to Trent, really listen to his poser gospel of despair and
>angst and darkness, and open your heart to him. You will soon realize the
>pointlessness of it all, that life means nothing. At this point, go stick
>your head in the oven, or rev the car up in a closed garage, or perhaps
>you will prefer to stick that spike into your vein in a locked bathroom.
>Whatever the case may be, hopefully you won't be consuming your parent's
>money or our precious bandwidth and oxygen anymore.
>
>Bitch.
Holy shit. Chill out man, I've never seen such a highly strung person. Do
you make it your business to diss up every angst-filled teenager you see?
Get a fuckin' life. Don't think I am starting a flame, but what the hell
kind of message was THAT!? You can't get rid of them all, in fact, you can't
even stop one of them--he is too thick/closed- minded to be educated.
Pinochet
MCarrasco wrote in message <19990109233236...@ng118.aol.com>...
>I know what I attack as I hate all religions that claim to faollow the Bible
>yet dress-up Jesus to be that which he isn't! It is the 700club that spent
>$20,000 on a couch I know that becasue my aunt wanted a couch "Just like >the
700club" but when we found out how much it cost it made us realize what >the
700club is doing with the monmey people send to them!
Until you see the bill where the 700 club paid for the couch, you really don't
know that. Maybe someone gave it to them. Maybe they had a slightly different
version(ie, a faux one). Maybe the company sold it to them cheap.
Who knows?
Sidhain
Stephen Cofer wrote in message ...
>It only seemed appropriate...every time something comes along that has
>anything to do with devils, demons, death, or whatever, along comes someone
>from the Christian faith denouncing it and acting all silly and rash, not
>willing to actually accept that the thing in question could *possibly* not
>be to blame for bad behavior on their child's part (or what/whoever they
>feel is being corrupted by it
Thats not just Christians thats all humanity buddy.
Christians at least try and get to the root of the problem ( that is -real
Christians, you will find very few in your life who really beleive Christian
precepts, and don't just espouse them so the Inquistions doesn't get em)
Apologies, I suppose, for the short answer;
>I know and realize that not all Christians are this way, but they always
>seem to be everywhere, trying to get their way and supposedly having the
>Word Of God on their side (ppht) to strengthen their argument. And the
Nine
>Inch Nails reference in my sig just seemed so appropriate for this post.
>Don't judge a person by one post.
Hmm why don't you consider doing the same thing for these _christians_
don't jusdge them by one post.....ad don't lump all people who profess
Christianity together
>Many wars, much hatred, and much sorrow in the world comes from religion;
Bullshit, this all comes from MAnkind, has less to do with Religon, if we
didn't have religon we'd find something else to kill each other over.
>even though I believe in God, s
ince I cannot accept that the balance and
>beauty in this world cannot have come by chance, I do not believe most of
>what the world's religions teach us.
>Sue me, damn it.
>
Religons isn't an answer to the world problems, its a social construct
creatied by humanity, ths as any construct is flawed because those who make
it up are flawed.
The problem is no real world religon can truly express itself as the truth ,
because it isn't....thats God...not some poorly veiled social heirarchy.
And some people such as myself are Christains and don't feel the need to
announce it every single post.
Admittedly I ahve been very quiet here as of late for the simple reason that
I find AD&D to flawed to be acceptable to run anymore, (and being the only
current consistend GM that pretty much means if I don't run it it doesn't
get run)
I am hoping for a change a serious change for 3rd edition (which is
inevitable) and shouls be done. I won't begin my rant on the fact that
games surviving and popular have all had multiple editions, Vampire is what
1/3 the age of AD&D and it has had Three editions?
However when it is fixed I hope its for the better or I will continue not to
use AD&D, I am pretty angry that the two best worlds ever designed for AD&D
are the two least supported, (admittedly one TSR screwed over from the
otuset by producing too mcuh utter drivel, and the other was intended to be
poorly supported)
Anyway....I ramble on...
Peace
Sidhain the Lion of the Sidhe.
Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman
You've learned not to include the entire message body in your reply.
Good.
> It only seemed appropriate...every time something comes along that has
> anything to do with devils, demons, death, or whatever, along comes
> someone from the Christian faith denouncing it and acting all silly and
> rash, not willing to actually accept that the thing in question could
> *possibly* not be to blame for bad behavior on their child's part (or
> what/whoever they feel is being corrupted by it).
The parents themselves are sometimes to blame, but often it's just the
sprog itself that's dysfunctional. Heavy metal, rap, RPGs and other such
things aren't to blame, merely the weak mind that can't assimilate them
into a workable worldview.
> Apologies, I suppose, for the short answer; I know and realize that not
> all Christians are this way, but they always seem to be everywhere,
> trying to get their way and supposedly having the Word Of God on their
> side (ppht) to strengthen their argument.
This is a human flaw, not a Christian one. People will tend to build a
religion/belief system for themselves that justifies their inner nature.
Many people like to hate, and to judge, and to feel superior to others.
Many are fond of using real or supposed victimization for their prejudice.
Thus, there are assholes like the Christian Right, and the IRA, and the
Irish Protestants, and white supremists, and the Nation of Islam, and Jews
that build on the West Bank, and misogynists, and N.O.W.'s militant
feminists, and rich elitists, and bitter poor, and Satanists, and inner-
city rioters who destroy their own neighborhoods when things don't go
their way, and parent groups that burn records and objectionable books,
and right/left-wing conspiracy nuts, and many, many others.
> And the Nine Inch Nails reference in my sig just seemed
> so appropriate for this post. Don't judge a person by one post.
It was stupid, Stephen. Shit like what you wrote is obviously going to
piss people off. How could you not assume that your post plus .sig,
wouldn't instigate an angry response from someone? I think you meant to
stir the shit a little, but you incorrectly assumed that most of the folks
on the NG would be sympathetic to your Christian-bashing (troll-baiting is
fun to do sometimes--hell, I do it myself on occasion). But you didn't
like the responses, so now you're changing your tune. Am I wrong? If you
think I am, tell me.
> Many wars, much hatred, and much sorrow in the world comes from religion;
True. Wars have been waged between tribes to capture women for breeding
purposes. Is sexual reproduction bad? Wars have been fought over race.
Is superficial variation within the human species bad? Wars have been
fought over lots of reasons, most of them stupid.
The flaw is within man itself, an ultimately pathetic and warlike species
that seeks to instigate conflict in the face of peace, to refute under-
standing and embrace intolerance. Like other animals, it seems that
humans (1) feel the need to prey on others, and (2) thrive under the
pressure of being preyed on by predators; and in the lack of real danger,
such apes as we will invent prey and predators to fight. Religion, race,
culture, are all excuses for humans to give into their violent instincts
against one another, and are not underlying reasons.
> even though I believe in God, since I cannot accept that the balance and
> beauty in this world cannot have come by chance, I do not believe most
> of what the world's religions teach us.
I agree with this 100%. Common ground can be found with anyone.
> Sue me, damn it.
Okay.
> "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself
> does not become a monster ... when you gaze long into the Abyss
> the Abyss also gazes into you ..."
> --Friedrich Nietzsche
Better .sig.
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| Lord Stevil the Parakeet Shaman |