3.5E: Turn/Rebuke Outsiders feat
SeaHen
Prerequisite: Charisma 15, ability to turn or rebuke undead, alignment
other than true neutral.
Benefit: You can turn or rebuke outsiders of alignments opposite to
yours as though they were undead. Each time you spend one of your
turning or rebuking attempts, choose whether it is to affect undead or
outsiders; you can't affect both at once.
Henry Lockwood
If you're LG, for example, does this affect both Chaotic and Evil
outsiders, Chaotic Evil, or (Chaotic or Evil)? I'd suggest that
(Chaotic or Evil) is the most appropriate, as there are times when a
LG character wants to work with one of the CG celestials, for example.
Also, does it make sense for evil clerics to be able to rebuke Good
outsiders? I think turning makes more sense; after all, it would be
odd for the BBEG to say to the PC's celestial ally "The power of evil
compels you, angel!".
But overall, I like the idea.
HenryL
Ubiquitous
>Turn/Rebuke Outsiders [General]
Doesn't this already exist?
>Prerequisite: Charisma 15, ability to turn or rebuke undead,
>alignment other than true neutral.
Why should the True Neutrals miss out on all the fun?
Ubiquitous
>Also, does it make sense for evil clerics to be able to rebuke Good
>outsiders? I think turning makes more sense; after all, it would be
>odd for the BBEG to say to the PC's celestial ally "The power of evil
>compels you, angel!".
I don't think rebuke is the same as command.
Rebuke is the same as turning.
JOanna Rowland-Stuart
> *From:* Ubiquitous <web...@polaris.net>
> *Date:* Tue, 11 Aug 2009 05:10:43 -0400
> Why should the True Neutrals miss out on all the fun?
It's from the same mindset that says druids (who are true neutral in most settings)
cannot affect undead.
Cheers
JOanna
Baird Stafford
<bee2de25-285d-4436...@a13g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
Henry Lockwood <henry.l...@cantab.net> wrote:
It isn't even new. That's one of the things the "Special" line on the
turning tables in 1E was for.
Baird
--
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice
there is. -Yogi Berra
tussock
>> Ubiquitous wrote:
>
>> Why should the True Neutrals miss out on all the fun?
>
> It's from the same mindset that says druids (who are true neutral in
> most settings) cannot affect undead.
Of course they can't. Clerics turn, and anti-Clerics control. What's
the Balancer supposed to do? Conturn? 8]
--
tussock
JOanna Rowland-Stuart
against nature?
Cheers
JOanna
Ubiquitous
>> *From:* Ubiquitous <web...@polaris.net>
>> Why should the True Neutrals miss out on all the fun?
>
>It's from the same mindset that says druids (who are true neutral in most
>settings) cannot affect undead.
Clerics aren't prohibited from being True Neutral.
--
The trouble with American journalism, in short, isn't that it's too skeptical,
but that it's too willing to throw skepticism to the wind when it suits the
agenda of proclaiming every war a Vietnam and every Republican president a
Nixon.
Alcore
> jrowlandstu...@cix.co.uk wrote:
> >> *From:* Ubiquitous <web...@polaris.net>
> >> Why should the True Neutrals miss out on all the fun?
>
> >It's from the same mindset that says druids (who are true neutral in most
> >settings) cannot affect undead.
>
> Clerics aren't prohibited from being True Neutral.
And clerics that are Neutral on the G/E axis must choose the energy
they channel (assuming their diety choice doesn't force it). So True
Neutrals are *not* left out. The issue is not alignment, but a matter
of class features and style.
If you want to play with the Undead, don't play a Druid.
Gene P.
Slidell LA
Seahen
> And clerics that are Neutral on the G/E axis must choose the energy
> they channel (assuming their diety choice doesn't force it). So True
> Neutrals are *not* left out. The issue is not alignment, but a matter
> of class features and style.
>
> If you want to play with the Undead, don't play a Druid.
How about the following:
Prerequisite: Charisma 15, ability to turn or rebuke undead, alignment
other than true neutral.
Benefit: If you turn undead, you can rebuke evil outsiders as an evil
cleric of your level rebukes undead. If you rebuke undead, you can
turn good outsiders as a good cleric of your level turns undead.
Ubiquitous
>On Aug 14, 4:00�am, Ubiquitous <web...@polaris.net> wrote:
>> jrowlandstu...@cix.co.uk wrote:
>> >> *From:* Ubiquitous <web...@polaris.net>
>>>> Why should the True Neutrals miss out on all the fun?
>>>
>>> It's from the same mindset that says druids (who are true neutral
>>> in most settings) cannot affect undead.
>>
>> Clerics aren't prohibited from being True Neutral.
>
>And clerics that are Neutral on the G/E axis must choose the energy
>they channel (assuming their diety choice doesn't force it). So True
>Neutrals are *not* left out.
Read the original description again (emphasis mine):
>Turn/Rebuke Outsiders [General]
>
>Prerequisite: Charisma 15, ability to turn or rebuke undead, ALIGNMENT
>OTHER THAN TRUE NEUTRAL.
>
>Benefit: You can turn or rebuke outsiders of alignments opposite to
>yours as though they were undead. Each time you spend one of your
>turning or rebuking attempts, choose whether it is to affect undead or
>outsiders; you can't affect both at once.
Hence my comment.
--
It is simply breathtaking to watch the glee and abandon with which
the liberal media and the Angry Left have been attempting to turn
our military victory in Iraq into a second Vietnam quagmire. Too bad
for them, it's failing.
Seahen
Prerequisite: Charisma 15, ability to turn or rebuke undead.
Benefit: If you turn undead, you can rebuke evil outsiders as an evil
cleric rebukes undead. If you rebuke undead, you can turn good
outsiders as a good cleric urns undead. Each time you spend one of
your turning or rebuking attempts, choose whether it is to affect
undead or outsiders; you can't affect both at once. Your check
modifier is the same in either case.
Ubiquitous
Keith Davies
I kind of like this idea, to be honest.
Good clerics being able to turn or destroy evil outsiders is (often)
appropriate to the setting, as is being unable or unwilling to command
them -- slippery slope, and all that.
Evil clerics forcing a celestial creature to attack its own allies?
Strikes me as entirely appropriate. And fun.
In fact, I'm going to have to make a note to allow that, for those who
can use their powers against outsiders. For that matter, I think I may
make this an optional power for the alignment domains. '+1 caster level
with [good] spells' sucks. I like my 'SR vs. evil' replacement, but I
have to admit that 'turn or destroy evil outsiders' has a nice feel to
it.
As does, as I said, 'rebuke or command good outsiders'.
Hmm. Law vs. Chaos. "Law commands, Chaos destroys" seems reasonable,
but this can leave us in the position of the possibility of someone
having two alignment powers being able to turn *or* rebuke the opposed
outsiders. So, the LG guy can destroy devils, command CG or CN
outsiders, or command *or* destroy demons.
Interesting. I'm not *entirely* sure yet, but I think I'm going to
spend some time thinking about this.
Keith
--
Keith Davies "Do you know what is in beer? The strength
keith....@kjdavies.org to bear the things you can't change, and
keith....@gmail.com wisdom to ignore them and fsck off for
http://www.kjdavies.org/ another beer." -- Owen, discussing work
Keith Davies
> jrowlan...@cix.co.uk wrote:
>>> *From:* Ubiquitous <web...@polaris.net>
>
>>> Why should the True Neutrals miss out on all the fun?
>>
>>It's from the same mindset that says druids (who are true neutral in most
>>settings) cannot affect undead.
Druids can be any neutral -- LN, NG, CN, NE, and TN are all valid.
> Clerics aren't prohibited from being True Neutral.
RAW, clerics are only allowed to be TN if their deity is TN.
IMC, this would preclude them from these turn/rebuke outsider powers
because they can't take the domains that give access to them.
Keith Davies
This seems backward, as I described in another post. Good clerics
should probably avoid making use of evil outsiders, while evil clerics
compelling good outsiders to do evil is such a yummy idea I have to
support it.
Incidentally, you'll probably find that turning outsiders is rather
easier. Unintelligent undead often have huge hit dice for their CR,
intelligent undead almost always have turn resistance to make up for
their relatively low HD. Outsiders tend to have lower HD+resistance for
CR than undead do. You may want to consider applying their SR, or a
portion thereof, as turn resistance.
Or do as I did and make turning an opposed Will check modified by Cha.
That keeps things a lot closer.
David Lamb
> Incidentally, you'll probably find that turning outsiders is rather
> easier. Unintelligent undead often have huge hit dice for their CR,
> intelligent undead almost always have turn resistance to make up for
> their relatively low HD. Outsiders tend to have lower HD+resistance for
> CR than undead do.
Not surprising, since the RAW writers had no thought for turning outsiders.
> You may want to consider applying their SR, or a
> portion thereof, as turn resistance.
I suspect this needs more thought/playtesting for balance.
> Or do as I did and make turning an opposed Will check modified by Cha.
> That keeps things a lot closer.
One rule to handle them all...
Keith Davies
Yep. I've posted my analysis before, but it turns out that it actually
works rather well. Clerics can generally now turn the creatures they
run into, including the unintelligent undead -- unintelligent undead
have insanely high HD for their CR and can't be turned until well after
they stop giving XP for being defeated. Will modified by Charisma (they
have Cha 1, turn-based clerics often have Cha 14+) more or less levels
the field. They still can't be destroyed, but they can be driven back.
Outsiders, OTOH, have good Will saves and often have good Charisma
scores, so they'll be less easy to turn. However, I don't necessarily
want them to be easily turned, so that's okay.