Ed Greenwood sucks and some Manshoon issues.
Xander
The title isn't too thought-provoking...so I suppose I'll be straight to
the point. Fans of Ed Greenwood (if there are any) are likely gonna flame
me...but the fact is that Mr. Greenwood has a few serious problems for the
FR world. Some of you are going to contest me on the point that it is not a
requisite of an FR DM/role-player to like or endorse Greenwood products -
but Greenwood is admittably the creator of the Realms and a HELL lot of FR
products.
What's Greenwood done that I, as a long-time DM of the Realms, am
continually irritated by? It's quite obvious...from the many other posts
about killing Elminster and stuff like that....Greenwood is overendowing
the Realms with magic. That possibly magic is a key feature of the Realms
we cannot ignore, but when there are too many super-powerful characters
and super-powerful items, the entire setting suffers from lack of
credibility and causes players to lose the sense of awe associated with
magic (Oh...another wand of fire. *yawn*) Ok, then again, some of you might
go a step further and argue that the Realms was meant to be
magic-rich...and then you realize that a lot, and I mean a lot of Greenwood
material suffers glaring inconsistencies with those primarily produced by
the rest of the FR team. When there is a general trend of inconsistency in
that Greenwood generated material tend to be higher-levels, more powerful,
and spattered with magic, there's definitely something wrong. Case in
point: Who rules the Brotherhood of the Arcane? Greenwood, in Volo's Guide
to the North (pg 121-123), states: (not quoting) a bunch of
mages...featuring the level 22 Quelthar Thaeloon and 4 other Overwizards of
level 19+, with level 17 assistants! Ok...the LE hm P12 is an exception -
but a known psionic. From the boxed set of the North we have an 18th level
wizard at the helm, and that funny guy from the Icewind Dale trilogy -
mm..yeah, Dendybar the Mottled (level 8) as an Overwizard. The Avatar
series was perfectly plausible - so why the hell did Greenwood have to
write the "Shadow of the Avatar" series with Elminster and his group of
Harper sluts and pimps kicking ass, kicking ass and kicking ass. (He turned
an army of Zhents into stone. Sharantyr, a level 7 fighter and Itharr and
Belkram, whops the asses of half a million Zhents without fear of death. I
say *SIGH* Boring. Absolute Greenwood predictable crap.) Man, is he so
insecure that people won't acknowledge the power of his pet character that
he plays during Gen Con?
Oooh. Elminster's a wizard, a fighter, a rogue and a priestess.
(Elminster...Makings of a Mage) So he has all class abilities. In Heroes
Lorebook he has psionics. He's great...kissed by Mystra. A virtual
immortal. A REAL boring guy that makes me dread to meet its creator in real
life.
What happens in Spellfire and Crown of Fire? Combat, combat and combat. All
one-sided..all predictable. No plot, boring hackneyed language, flat main
characters and laughable attempts to make everyone worship Elminster the Ao
and Shandril his Slut Supreme. Comparing this to Salvatore is like
comparing a Spice Girl's intelligence with Einstein's. It's not enough that
he does it in the novels. Game products suffer from an avalanche from his
shitpile - Spellfire. The billions of artifacts in Volo's guide to all
things magical. Archmages in every city. (FR Adventures hardback check the
preceding statement) It's blatant enough to make me sick.
Oh well. I've also noticed that some of you in other posts think that
Manshoon and the Zhentarim are absolute idiots. Let me correct that notion
to that as presented in sourcebooks like Ruins of Zhentil Keep. (Really
good boxed set. Really recommended over stuff such as Volo's guides to
Greenwood's boring crap) Firstly, Manshoon and the Zhentarim are oppressed
by the evil Greenwood - it's not true Manshoon dies every other week. It's
not true Manshoon is dumb. It's not true the Zhentarim go "And you die by
the hand of me, old mage" and then die. The Zhentarim are if anything, a
highly intelligent, highly subtle and ambitious group which can really rule
the world if not for their many agendas. Manshoon has an 18 intelligence.
And a description that says..
"..quite content to flee danger. Many have tried to destroy him and none
has suceeded; HE IS CAREFUL, AND NEVER LETS HIS TEMPER MASTER HIS REASON,
AND IS ALWAYS ALERT. HE SEEMS AN UNBEATABLE FOE; OTHERS FACE DANGER TO DO
HIS BIDDING, BUT HE IS NEVER THERE TO FACE THE MUSIC." (Running the Realms
page 37)
Talk about controversy. Greenwood's Manshoon is DUMB. Greenwood-dumb.
Definitely not Manshoon. The actual Manshoon is a very cool guy whom the DM
enjoys as a sort of ultimate arch-villain...a sort of guy players love to
hate - and respect.
And Manshoon and the Zhentarim should be very respected. They are an
entirely plausible organization which generates lots of intrigue to
intrigue-based adventures.
1. They don't have insanely bloated character levels. Although this is a
bit weird given their foes, but then when you think of Greenwood's
bias...not weird. Then again, the Zhentarim look like the product of some
other FR team guy...some other guy more rational. :-)
2. They are shadowy, smart and never overconfident. E.g. Manshoon moved
base of operatives to the Citadel 6 months before Cyrinishad fiasco.
Not meaning to say Greenwood hasn't done good - well, he invented the
Realms. :-) What else? Drow of the Underdark perhaps. Yep..that's not too
bad. Although it's rumored Greenwood invented the drow, ergo drow's
supermagic. DUH! If they want to make a cool kickass race, make a cool
believable kickass race!!!
There...got a whole load off my mind. Thanks for reading..appreciate any
and all responses. Would love to hear from you fellow DMs and players.
P.S. For any of you who think that Zhentarim are too low-level, email me
for a emailed zipped up Word 7.0 format revision of the Zhentarim to make
them viable but not super-Greenwood-powerful. You can see there is a
relativity to the rest of the Realms...their wizards are generally lower
levels than Red Wizards. And also available with it, all in Word 7.0
format, are NPCs, new magical items, hierachy tree for the Zhentarim, and
other Zhentarim-related info - all highly elaborate with scanned artwork.
It's not for profit and use of all trademarks is not intended to challenge
the rights of the owner. If there's a site willing to sponsor this for
downloading I'll be glad to accept the sponsorship.
Pinochet
Xander wrote in message <01bd1175$deffe500$18b415a5@user>...
>There...got a whole load off my mind. Thanks for reading..appreciate any
>and all responses. Would love to hear from you fellow DMs and players.
Nice diatribe. Hope you enjoy the consequences.. }:+)
Generalfeldmarschall Blucher
At 26 Dec 1997 12:20:25 GMT sharp, I received this vital message from
Commander Xander detailing enemy movement near the small town of
rec.games.frp.dnd:
[Snip]
Ahhh! The sound of a spleen being vented.
You have some interesting points but I think you need to work on your
delivery.
;-)
- Joe Mulei
P.S. Now since we are on the subject (see Spleen, Venting of; q.v.
above) I feel it's time I emptied mine out also. But in another post I
think ...
--
Generalfeldmarschall Blücher - blu...@usa.net
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy."
NoelDog
Here, here.....!!!
Jeremy Reaban
Well, as you pointed out, he created the Forgotten Realms. If he wants to
have a world with archmages on virtually every street, then so be it.
To me, the FR is like a comic book world. If you look at it that way, it's
not so bad....
Xander <obli...@mbox3.singnet.com.sg> wrote in article
<01bd1175$deffe500$18b415a5@user>...
Mike Wilson
Xander wrote:
[clip]
Never read much of Greenwoods stuff, specially his modules as they all
read the same. In other words I agree with you... except for:
> Not meaning to say Greenwood hasn't done good - well, he invented the
> Realms. :-) What else? Drow of the Underdark perhaps. Yep..that's not too
> bad. Although it's rumored Greenwood invented the drow, ergo drow's
> supermagic. DUH! If they want to make a cool kickass race, make a cool
> believable kickass race!!!
Ed creating something like the Drow? Who is spreading the rumor that Ed
created drow... Not true, EGG and crew created that mighty foe.
--
---
Mike Wilson
To defeat the spam attacks I've decided to place the email
addresses I've been forwarding all my spam to in the hopes
that the spammers will send it directly to them. So, in no
peticular order: no-...@flash.net, ab...@flash.net,
sc...@flash.net, postm...@flash.net,
lee...@flash.net, l...@flash.net.
Michael Argyle, MD
Xander wrote:
>
> The title isn't too thought-provoking...so I suppose I'll be straight to
> the point. Fans of Ed Greenwood (if there are any) are likely gonna flame
> me
>
undermountain.
> What's Greenwood done that I, as a long-time DM of the Realms, am
> continually irritated by? It's quite obvious...from the many other posts
> about killing Elminster and stuff like that....Greenwood is overendowing
> the Realms with magic.
Funny...I would have said that it was that TSR thought he was an author
of anything worth reading. However you are correct in saying that the
Realms runneth over with arch-arch-archwizards and magic to end all
magic. To the point of nausea in fact, but dont worry if i vomit in
contemplation of it, I can use the magic powered privy :)
The single worst decision in the history of TSR was the one to utilize
that overindulgent, excessive, laughable trash known as the Realms as
their flagship campaign world. In fact that was the beginning of the
end, low those many years ago. All this recent trouble was from that
incalculable error and their continued syncophantic treatment of
Greenwood. Good thing this hobby is what you make of it and not what
someone makes of it for you.....or I wouldn't be around flaming in the
D&D newsgroup today ;)
> Oooh. Elminster's a wizard, a fighter, a rogue and a priestess.
> (Elminster...Makings of a Mage) So he has all class abilities. In Heroes
> Lorebook he has psionics. He's great...kissed by Mystra. A virtual
> immortal. A REAL boring guy that makes me dread to meet its creator in real
> life.
I have, needless to say I wasn't after autographs....
> P.S. For any of you who think that Zhentarim are too low-level, email me
> for a emailed zipped up Word 7.0 format revision of the Zhentarim to make
Obiviously, you have found elements of the realms which you find useful,
after suitable modification of course, to enhance your campaign. I am
happy someone has been able to do that. Try as we might none of my group
has ever found anything of the Realms worth the effort. From the very
first box set won as a prize back in GenCon whatever, it has left a sour
taste in our mouths. :(
Doc on Safari
SaraBear25
I agree with almost everything you said. I stopped playing in the Realms. You
can't swing a dead cat without hitting five demi-godlike NPC's. And I find
Greenwood's book to be nearly unreadable (IMHO).
My personal pet peeve: on the covers of Salvatore's Drizzt books, the cover art
depicts Drizzt looking like he's more into Geritol, Polident, and Depends then
"whirling scimitars" why does the artist insist upon making Drizzt look 80
(human age equivlant)? And not only 80, but ugly and grumpy too? From what I
understand from the books, Drizzt is supposed to be quite the tasty tender
morsel of studly young manflesh....er, elf-flesh. Doesn't he have a 15 Cha or
something like that? He should bury Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise but they have him
looking more like an eldery Lurch from the Addam's Family.
Barry Smith
Xander wrote:
>
> The title isn't too thought-provoking...so I suppose I'll be straight to
> the point. Fans of Ed Greenwood (if there are any) are likely gonna flame
> me...but the fact is that Mr. Greenwood has a few serious problems for the
> FR world. Some of you are going to contest me on the point that it is not a
> requisite of an FR DM/role-player to like or endorse Greenwood products -
> but Greenwood is admittably the creator of the Realms and a HELL lot of FR
> products.
>
> What's Greenwood done that I, as a long-time DM of the Realms, am
> continually irritated by? It's quite obvious...from the many other posts
> about killing Elminster and stuff like that....Greenwood is overendowing
> the Realms with magic.
I'm sorry but Greenwood does NOT endow my FR with anything other than
curiosities and adventure tips. His word certainly is not golden...
That possibly magic is a key feature of the Realms
> we cannot ignore, but when there are too many super-powerful characters
> and super-powerful items, the entire setting suffers from lack of
> credibility and causes players to lose the sense of awe associated with
> magic (Oh...another wand of fire. *yawn*)
This feature is not Realms specific. Any DM can have a campaign like
that. While true that the FR is high magic territory, it doesn't have to
be if the DM so rules. Some trimming here and cutting there and you've
got quite a gritty low magic realm. Toss the high magic, mages, priests,
psionics, artifacts, gods, and leave just enough magic to whet the
players tastes and you just made a low magic FR. Imagine that....
Ok, then again, some of you might
> go a step further and argue that the Realms was meant to be
> magic-rich...
I don't.
and then you realize that a lot, and I mean a lot of Greenwood
> material suffers glaring inconsistencies with those primarily produced by
> the rest of the FR team. When there is a general trend of inconsistency in
> that Greenwood generated material tend to be higher-levels, more powerful,
> and spattered with magic, there's definitely something wrong.
Then don't use it!!!! Is Greenwood so ingrained that you have to accept
his word as law?
Case in
> point: Who rules the Brotherhood of the Arcane? Greenwood, in Volo's Guide
> to the North (pg 121-123), states: (not quoting) a bunch of
> mages...featuring the level 22 Quelthar Thaeloon and 4 other Overwizards of
> level 19+, with level 17 assistants! Ok...the LE hm P12 is an exception -
> but a known psionic. From the boxed set of the North we have an 18th level
> wizard at the helm, and that funny guy from the Icewind Dale trilogy -
> mm..yeah, Dendybar the Mottled (level 8) as an Overwizard. The Avatar
> series was perfectly plausible - so why the hell did Greenwood have to
> write the "Shadow of the Avatar" series with Elminster and his group of
> Harper sluts and pimps kicking ass, kicking ass and kicking ass. (He turned
> an army of Zhents into stone. Sharantyr, a level 7 fighter and Itharr and
> Belkram, whops the asses of half a million Zhents without fear of death. I
> say *SIGH* Boring.
Is it canon that these NPCs must be in place? If you don't like how
Eddie did it, change it! If they must be in place(for whatever reason),
alter them to suit your style! Nothing says that you can't. The FR
police will not knock on your door.
Absolute Greenwood predictable crap.) Man, is he so
> insecure that people won't acknowledge the power of his pet character that
> he plays during Gen Con?
Who cares what Greenwood thinks about his pet character? I don't.
> Oooh. Elminster's a wizard, a fighter, a rogue and a priestess.
> (Elminster...Makings of a Mage) So he has all class abilities. In Heroes
> Lorebook he has psionics. He's great...kissed by Mystra. A virtual
> immortal. A REAL boring guy that makes me dread to meet its creator in real
> life.
Not me. I won't judge someone merely on the that basis. It's shallow and
a bit harsh.
> What happens in Spellfire and Crown of Fire? Combat, combat and combat. All
> one-sided..all predictable. No plot, boring hackneyed language, flat main
> characters and laughable attempts to make everyone worship Elminster the Ao
> and Shandril his Slut Supreme. Comparing this to Salvatore is like
> comparing a Spice Girl's intelligence with Einstein's. It's not enough that
> he does it in the novels. Game products suffer from an avalanche from his
> shitpile - Spellfire. The billions of artifacts in Volo's guide to all
> things magical. Archmages in every city. (FR Adventures hardback check the
> preceding statement) It's blatant enough to make me sick.
You have a definite confidence problem. Alterations to a game world are
not illegal AFAIK...
> Oh well. I've also noticed that some of you in other posts think that
> Manshoon and the Zhentarim are absolute idiots. Let me correct that notion
> to that as presented in sourcebooks like Ruins of Zhentil Keep. (Really
> good boxed set. Really recommended over stuff such as Volo's guides to
> Greenwood's boring crap) Firstly, Manshoon and the Zhentarim are oppressed
> by the evil Greenwood - it's not true Manshoon dies every other week. It's
> not true Manshoon is dumb. It's not true the Zhentarim go "And you die by
> the hand of me, old mage" and then die. The Zhentarim are if anything, a
> highly intelligent, highly subtle and ambitious group which can really rule
> the world if not for their many agendas.
I couldn't agree more with your thoughts on the Zhentarim. Here's a
twist you might want to exploit: Try switching the power bases of the 2
organizations: The Harpers and the Zhents. Then, you'd have nothing to
complain about. Isn't it funny how, if good is the leading powerbase in
a campaign, then it's considered munchkin, but if EVIL is the main
powerbase, then it's considered healthy for the campaign.....
Manshoon has an 18 intelligence.
> And a description that says..
>
> "..quite content to flee danger. Many have tried to destroy him and none
> has suceeded; HE IS CAREFUL, AND NEVER LETS HIS TEMPER MASTER HIS REASON,
> AND IS ALWAYS ALERT. HE SEEMS AN UNBEATABLE FOE; OTHERS FACE DANGER TO DO
> HIS BIDDING, BUT HE IS NEVER THERE TO FACE THE MUSIC." (Running the Realms
> page 37)
>
> Talk about controversy. Greenwood's Manshoon is DUMB. Greenwood-dumb.
> Definitely not Manshoon. The actual Manshoon is a very cool guy whom the DM
> enjoys as a sort of ultimate arch-villain...a sort of guy players love to
> hate - and respect.
>
> And Manshoon and the Zhentarim should be very respected. They are an
> entirely plausible organization which generates lots of intrigue to
> intrigue-based adventures.
Exactly. They could be much more than that if you deemed it necessary
too.
> 1. They don't have insanely bloated character levels. Although this is a
> bit weird given their foes, but then when you think of Greenwood's
> bias...not weird. Then again, the Zhentarim look like the product of some
> other FR team guy...some other guy more rational. :-)
Then alter Greenwood's stats.
> 2. They are shadowy, smart and never overconfident. E.g. Manshoon moved
> base of operatives to the Citadel 6 months before Cyrinishad fiasco.
>
> Not meaning to say Greenwood hasn't done good - well, he invented the
> Realms. :-) What else? Drow of the Underdark perhaps. Yep..that's not too
> bad. Although it's rumored Greenwood invented the drow, ergo drow's
> supermagic. DUH! If they want to make a cool kickass race, make a cool
> believable kickass race!!!
>
> There...got a whole load off my mind. Thanks for reading..appreciate any
> and all responses. Would love to hear from you fellow DMs and players.
>
> P.S. For any of you who think that Zhentarim are too low-level, email me
> for a emailed zipped up Word 7.0 format revision of the Zhentarim to make
> them viable but not super-Greenwood-powerful. You can see there is a
> relativity to the rest of the Realms...their wizards are generally lower
> levels than Red Wizards.
See! You can do it! Now what was so hard about that? Did your campaign
collapse because you altered it? Well done!
Russ Taylor
In article <01bd1175$deffe500$18b415a5@user>, "Xander"
<obli...@mbox3.singnet.com.sg> wrote:
>Not meaning to say Greenwood hasn't done good - well, he invented the
>Realms. :-) What else? Drow of the Underdark perhaps. Yep..that's not too
>bad. Although it's rumored Greenwood invented the drow, ergo drow's
>supermagic. DUH! If they want to make a cool kickass race, make a cool
>believable kickass race!!!
Gary Gygax invented the Drow, and I think before Greenwood was involved in
the game. In fact, most of the Drow magic items were just lifted straight
from D1-3 by Greenwood.
--
Russ Taylor (rta...@cmc.net)
Chambers Multimedia Connection Help Desk
Xander
I have never been in doubt that I have absolute and total control over my
campaign, and every alteration is my whim...I have never seen the game
accessories as absolute...I don't think I have a confidence problem. I have
been tweaking rules and stuff around since my days as a fledging RPGer with
a Player's Handbook and a DM's guide.
Why then this spleen-venting thingy, as someone so eloquently puts it? :-)
First reason? I'm displeased with the general state of the Realms. Not with
my Realms, the official Realms. Why should I care? Dunno, I suppose I just
wanna share my views. :-)
Second reason is because game products come shrink wrapped. There are those
with nice blurbs and intriguing premises, among them the Greenwood
ones...and turn out to be a total waste of good money. Sure, adventure
ideas and curiosities come by occasionally, but when the product generally
turns out poor - it's disappointing. You don't get your money's worth.
Regards,
Xander
Barry Smith <bsm...@premier1.net> wrote in article
<34A419...@premier1.net>...
> Xander wrote:
> >
<snip>
>I'm sorry but Greenwood does NOT endow my FR with anything other than
> curiosities and adventure tips. His word certainly is not golden...
> This feature is not Realms specific. Any DM can have a campaign like
> that. While true that the FR is high magic territory, it doesn't have to
> be if the DM so rules. Some trimming here and cutting there and you've
> got quite a gritty low magic realm. Toss the high magic, mages, priests,
> psionics, artifacts, gods, and leave just enough magic to whet the
> players tastes and you just made a low magic FR. Imagine that....
>
>
> Ok, then again, some of you might
> > go a step further and argue that the Realms was meant to be
> > magic-rich...
>
> I don't.
<snip>
> Then don't use it!!!! Is Greenwood so ingrained that you have to accept
> his word as law?
<snip>
> Exactly. They could be much more than that if you deemed it necessary
> too.
>
> > 1. They don't have insanely bloated character levels. Although this is
a
> > bit weird given their foes, but then when you think of Greenwood's
> > bias...not weird. Then again, the Zhentarim look like the product of
some
> > other FR team guy...some other guy more rational. :-)
>
> Then alter Greenwood's stats.
<snip>
Xander
Michael Argyle, MD <arg...@pilot.msu.edu> wrote in article
<34A413...@pilot.msu.edu>...
> The single worst decision in the history of TSR was the one to utilize
> that overindulgent, excessive, laughable trash known as the Realms as
> their flagship campaign world. In fact that was the beginning of the
> end, low those many years ago. All this recent trouble was from that
> incalculable error and their continued syncophantic treatment of
> Greenwood. Good thing this hobby is what you make of it and not what
> someone makes of it for you.....or I wouldn't be around flaming in the
> D&D newsgroup today ;)
Yep, I've got this similar feeling that TSR is very sycophantic in its
treatment of Greenwood. He runs free reign over their magazines and books -
I don't know how Spellfire and Crown of Fire and all Elminster-related
books could EVER have gotten to the publishers. :-)
Regards,
Xander
"Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. Then you'll be
one mile away, and you'll have their shoes."
Pat & Jen Younts
>
> The single worst decision in the history of TSR was the one to utilize
> that overindulgent, excessive, laughable trash known as the Realms as
> their flagship campaign world. In fact that was the beginning of the
> end, low those many years ago. All this recent trouble was from that
> incalculable error and their continued syncophantic treatment of
> Greenwood. Good thing this hobby is what you make of it and not what
> someone makes of it for you.....or I wouldn't be around flaming in the
> D&D newsgroup today ;)
Greenwood's products sell, that is why TSR treats him like gold. For
every person that hates him there are probably three that swear by his
campaign world as written. As to FR being TSRs flagship line, what else
logically could have been? Certainly not Greyhawk. As much as I love the
setting, I conceed that it was not everyones cup of tea. It was too
rooted in late midieval times to attract everyone. Dragonlance had the
same problem, in that those who were not fans of the novels would find
little attraction in the world. The forgotten Realms meanwhile was an
all encompassing setting, with a high magic feel that many fantasy fans
find appealing, and a huge number of possible campaign bases. TSRs
monetary problems have little to do with FR, if I am not mistaken.
>
Bryan J. Maloney
It's really very simple:
In order to please the drooling idiots who demand "bigger" all the time,
TSR undertook a policy of one-upping their own settings.
Toby Mekelburg
sarab...@aol.com (SaraBear25) wrote:
Well, blame the cover artist for those books. I believe Rob Ruphel and
Jeff Easely were responsible for the hardcover Drizzt novels. They
are/were two of the worst artists at TSR, and the Realms line got
stuck with them.
Now Todd Lockwood is painting a majority of FR covers, and he is a
*great* improvement over those two. He has a Elmore style that goes
well with the Realms.
Toby Mekelburg
to...@lava.net meke...@hawaii.edu
My Realms page at http://www.lava.net/~toby
Realms List FAQ at http://www.lava.net/~toby/frfaq.htm
Remove SPAMSUCKS from my e-mail address to reply to me
Toby Mekelburg
"Michael Argyle, MD" <arg...@pilot.msu.edu> wrote:
>Xander wrote:
>> What's Greenwood done that I, as a long-time DM of the Realms, am
>> continually irritated by? It's quite obvious...from the many other posts
>> about killing Elminster and stuff like that....Greenwood is overendowing
>> the Realms with magic.
>
>Funny...I would have said that it was that TSR thought he was an author
>of anything worth reading. However you are correct in saying that the
>Realms runneth over with arch-arch-archwizards and magic to end all
>magic. To the point of nausea in fact, but dont worry if i vomit in
>contemplation of it, I can use the magic powered privy :)
As I mentioned a few weeks back in one of the Elminster threads, there
are more mages of middle levels than true archmages. That's why
there's all that bullshit about "archmages on every street corner".
The number of wizards around makes it *seem* as if there are loads of
archmages.
>The single worst decision in the history of TSR was the one to utilize
>that overindulgent, excessive, laughable trash known as the Realms as
>their flagship campaign world. In fact that was the beginning of the
>end, low those many years ago. All this recent trouble was from that
>incalculable error and their continued syncophantic treatment of
>Greenwood. Good thing this hobby is what you make of it and not what
>someone makes of it for you.....or I wouldn't be around flaming in the
>D&D newsgroup today ;)
Well, I think it was a better decision than making GH the flagship
world. When Gygax left, it was the death knell for that setting.
However, the Realms are in good hands even should something happen to
Ed.
>> P.S. For any of you who think that Zhentarim are too low-level, email me
>> for a emailed zipped up Word 7.0 format revision of the Zhentarim to make
>
>Obiviously, you have found elements of the realms which you find useful,
>after suitable modification of course, to enhance your campaign. I am
>happy someone has been able to do that. Try as we might none of my group
>has ever found anything of the Realms worth the effort. From the very
>first box set won as a prize back in GenCon whatever, it has left a sour
>taste in our mouths. :(
I have yet to meet anyone who has run one of TSR's campaign settings
as presented. The material is meant to be a guideline and to be
changed as per the needs of the DM. I guess if you have no idea that
you are allowed to customize these settings, the pre-packaged worlds
aren't for you.
Toby Mekelburg
Pat & Jen Younts <#pyo...@popd.ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Greenwood's products sell, that is why TSR treats him like gold. For
>every person that hates him there are probably three that swear by his
>campaign world as written. As to FR being TSRs flagship line, what else
>logically could have been? Certainly not Greyhawk. As much as I love the
>setting, I conceed that it was not everyones cup of tea. It was too
>rooted in late midieval times to attract everyone. Dragonlance had the
>same problem, in that those who were not fans of the novels would find
>little attraction in the world. The forgotten Realms meanwhile was an
>all encompassing setting, with a high magic feel that many fantasy fans
>find appealing, and a huge number of possible campaign bases. TSRs
>monetary problems have little to do with FR, if I am not mistaken.
Absolutely. The Realms remains TSR's best selling campaign setting,
and the future still looks bright. There seems to be more of a desire
to being compatible with past works when researching new products. For
instance, Steven Schend got help for the Lands of Intrigue set, as
fans sent him virtually every snippet of info dealing with Amn and
Tethyr from the wealth of published material. And he has done so again
with his upcoming Empires of the Shining Sea. And Eric Boyd is doing
the same thing with the Demihuman Deities book.
Toby Mekelburg
Yep, when the "drooling idiots" speak, TSR listens. Witness the
revival of the WoG.
Dominic Nguyen
Toby Mekelburg wrote:
>
> "Bryan J. Maloney" <bj...@cornell.edu> wrote:
>
> >It's really very simple:
> >
> >In order to please the drooling idiots who demand "bigger" all the time,
> >TSR undertook a policy of one-upping their own settings.
>
> Yep, when the "drooling idiots" speak, TSR listens. Witness the
> revival of the WoG.
One for his side.
-----
"I will not forget thy remark..."
"I didn't expect you to."
-David Eddings, "The Seeress of Kell"
Toby Mekelburg
"Xander" <obli...@mbox3.singnet.com.sg> wrote:
>I have never been in doubt that I have absolute and total control over my
>campaign, and every alteration is my whim...I have never seen the game
>accessories as absolute...I don't think I have a confidence problem. I have
>been tweaking rules and stuff around since my days as a fledging RPGer with
>a Player's Handbook and a DM's guide.
As you should. Its only natural to tailor the campaign to suit your
needs.
>Why then this spleen-venting thingy, as someone so eloquently puts it? :-)
>
>First reason? I'm displeased with the general state of the Realms. Not with
>my Realms, the official Realms. Why should I care? Dunno, I suppose I just
>wanna share my views. :-)
The latest Realms products have been superb.
>Second reason is because game products come shrink wrapped. There are those
>with nice blurbs and intriguing premises, among them the Greenwood
>ones...and turn out to be a total waste of good money. Sure, adventure
>ideas and curiosities come by occasionally, but when the product generally
>turns out poor - it's disappointing. You don't get your money's worth.
You should be happy with next years schedule. Ed is only writing one
game product for the Realms; the Raven's Bluff sourcebook. He's got
two novels about Elminster though so you may have a problem with that.
We can expect to see several articles in Dragon though...
>Regards,
>
>Xander
>
>
>Barry Smith <bsm...@premier1.net> wrote in article
><34A419...@premier1.net>...
>> Xander wrote:
>> >
>
><snip>
>
>>I'm sorry but Greenwood does NOT endow my FR with anything other than
>> curiosities and adventure tips. His word certainly is not golden...
>
>> This feature is not Realms specific. Any DM can have a campaign like
>> that. While true that the FR is high magic territory, it doesn't have to
>> be if the DM so rules. Some trimming here and cutting there and you've
>> got quite a gritty low magic realm. Toss the high magic, mages, priests,
>> psionics, artifacts, gods, and leave just enough magic to whet the
>> players tastes and you just made a low magic FR. Imagine that....
>>
>>
>> Ok, then again, some of you might
>> > go a step further and argue that the Realms was meant to be
>> > magic-rich...
>>
>> I don't.
>
><snip>
>
>> Then don't use it!!!! Is Greenwood so ingrained that you have to accept
>> his word as law?
>
><snip>
>
>> Exactly. They could be much more than that if you deemed it necessary
>> too.
>>
>> > 1. They don't have insanely bloated character levels. Although this is
>a
>> > bit weird given their foes, but then when you think of Greenwood's
>> > bias...not weird. Then again, the Zhentarim look like the product of
>some
>> > other FR team guy...some other guy more rational. :-)
>>
>> Then alter Greenwood's stats.
>
><snip>
>
>> See! You can do it! Now what was so hard about that? Did your campaign
>> collapse because you altered it? Well done!
>
Toby Mekelburg
Mike Wilson
Toby Mekelburg wrote:
>
> Yep, when the "drooling idiots" speak, TSR listens. Witness the
> revival of the WoG.
[At first I was going to shoot back a flaming retort but I think the
author's intelligence has shown through so I decided to keep it civil.]
The reason Greyhawk is making a return is because it was canceled during
the times of unrest in TSR. We all know the major reason and she no
longer has control of such matters and thankfully Peter and crew have
enough sense to market something for those of us that like a heroic
fantasy setting.
Suggesting that GH fans are less than intelligent shows you lack of
background with the setting. GH has always been a setting for those who
like to add their own style. If you prefer to have a ton of material to
keep track of (should you like to stick with the time lines and setting)
you can use FR. Some folks prefer to be a tad more creative than that.
Sure you can ignore half of the FR accessories but it could well make
modules and future products hard to insert into your game because of it.
--
---
Mike Wilson
To defeat the spam attacks I've decided to place the email
addresses I've been forwarding all my spam to in the hopes
that the spammers will send it directly to them. So, in no
peticular order: no-...@flash.net, ab...@flash.net,
sc...@flash.net, postm...@flash.net,
NOIP
Pinochet wrote:
>
> Xander wrote in message <01bd1175$deffe500$18b415a5@user>...
>
> >and all responses. Would love to hear from you fellow DMs and players.
>
I just want everyone to know I didn't start the thread this time!
NOIP
HELLGUEST
>Mike Wilson said:
>The reason Greyhawk is making a return is because it was canceled during
>the times of unrest in TSR. We all know the major reason and she no
>longer has control of such matters and thankfully Peter and crew have
>enough sense to market something for those of us that like a heroic
>fantasy setting.
Ahhh No, not even close. GH was closed out in 1992 or so from poor sales.
Others have claimed with some justifacation that the post EGG greyhawk
sucked. Quite possibly so. But the major problems did not hit until 1993 when
M:tG dried up the market.
As to why it is coming back I don't know for sure. The only people who do
know are at WotC and their lips are sealed.
>Mike Wilson said:
>Suggesting that GH fans are less than intelligent shows you lack of
>background with the setting. GH has always been a setting for those who
>like to add their own style. If you prefer to have a ton of material to
>keep track of (should you like to stick with the time lines and setting)
>you can use FR. Some folks prefer to be a tad more creative than that.
>Sure you can ignore half of the FR accessories but it could well make
>modules and future products hard to insert into your game because of it.
Correct no argument. Taste is a matter of individual preference and should
not be subject to generalizations.
JD Lail also dba Hellguest
Wilson, M.D.
>Is it canon that these NPCs must be in place? If you don't like how
>Eddie did it, change it! If they must be in place(for whatever reason),
>alter them to suit your style! Nothing says that you can't. The FR
>police will not knock on your door.
[snip]
>You have a definite confidence problem. Alterations to a game world are
>not illegal AFAIK...
No offense, but I think you missed the point. Xander wasn't
complaining about FR per se (which he plays and apparently likes) but
about Greenwood's effect on FR.
Actually, he's done a fairly good job of convincing me to look into FR
itself. Apparently, much of what I hate can be avoided by cutting out
Greenwood.
I've no personal vendetta against Ed Greenwood, but I think it's
interesting that no one has come to his defense. I guess that means
Xander did a good job of presenting his case. :)
Hemlock
BTW, I agree completely about Manshoon.
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Pinochet
Toby Mekelburg wrote in message <34a58ee0...@news.lava.net>...
>You should be happy with next years schedule. Ed is only writing one
>game product for the Realms; the Raven's Bluff sourcebook. He's got
>two novels about Elminster though so you may have a problem with that.
Correction he has one NEW novel and one Hardcover going into
Paperback..
*The Forever Man*
On Sat, 27 Dec 1997 20:34:00 GMT, to...@SPAMSUCKlava.net (Toby
Mekelburg) wrote:
>Now Todd Lockwood is painting a majority of FR covers, and he is a
>*great* improvement over those two. He has a Elmore style that goes
>well with the Realms.
>
Really? I haven't been keeping up with the latest FR novels. What
covers has he done? I'm a big fan of Elmore and anyone that has his
style can't be too bad.
Jason Hatter
Wilson, M.D. (Nos...@me.com) wrote:
: I've no personal vendetta against Ed Greenwood, but I think it's
: interesting that no one has come to his defense. I guess that means
: Xander did a good job of presenting his case. :)
Not really. Just that most of the FR fan-base does NOT read this
newsgroup. Personally, i disagree with most of Xanders post, but then,
I'm one of those people that think that Salvatore should be shot for
everything he's written since The Halflings' Gem...
--
Jason
http://www.cris.com/~towonder/
Sailor Moon V at http://www.cris.com/~towonder/fanfic.shtml
Michael Argyle, MD
HELLGUEST wrote:
>
> Ahhh No, not even close. GH was closed out in 1992 or so from poor sales.
> Others have claimed with some justifacation that the post EGG greyhawk
> sucked. Quite possibly so. But the major problems did not hit until 1993 when
> M:tG dried up the market.
>
> As to why it is coming back I don't know for sure. The only people who do
> know are at WotC and their lips are sealed.
According to a conference this summer at GenCon, including Wotc
president, EGG, Dave Arensen<sp?>, and some TSR staffers, Grewhawk was
slated to make a return even before the buyout occured. The only reason
that they could state it would happen in 1998 was due to the amount of
material that was already underway for it.
Although the president of Wotc could not say for sure who would head the
grewhawk team, and/or if EGG would have any design input.....He did make
it clear that they were interested in reforming relationships both
personal and professional with both EGG and Dave. BTW Wotc president(i
think his name is Peter)seemed like a real straightforward, honest,
genuine guy who was weened on role playing and has a personal as well as
financial committment to see TSR and D&D continue and flourish.
Doctari
Michael Argyle, MD
Jason Hatter wrote:
> I'm one of those people that think that Salvatore should be shot for
> everything he's written since The Halflings' Gem...
I'll have to include the hafling's gem in the reasons for execution<g>
Doctari
Jason Hatter
Michael Argyle, MD (arg...@pilot.msu.edu) wrote:
: I'll have to include the hafling's gem in the reasons for execution<g>
I almost agree, but I'm kind of lenient when it comes to jdging a whole
trilogy. The first two were excellent, and the third only started to fall
apart towards the end...
wagemage
IMHO the best picture of Drizzt is still the Elmore cover of "The Crystal
Shard".
MnPSharkey
Nos...@me.com (Wilson, M.D.)
Message-id: <684ip3$2bv$1...@gte2.gte.net>
>>Is it canon that these NPCs must be in place? If you don't like how
>>Eddie did it, change it! If they must be in place(for whatever reason),
>>alter them to suit your style! Nothing says that you can't. The FR
>>police will not knock on your door.
>[snip]
>>You have a definite confidence problem. Alterations to a game world are
>>not illegal AFAIK...
>No offense, but I think you missed the point. Xander wasn't
>complaining about FR per se (which he plays and apparently likes) but
>about Greenwood's effect on FR.
>Actually, he's done a fairly good job of convincing me to look into FR
>itself. Apparently, much of what I hate can be avoided by cutting out
>Greenwood.
>I've no personal vendetta against Ed Greenwood, but I think it's
>interesting that no one has come to his defense. I guess that means
>Xander did a good job of presenting his case. :)
Umm... no offense intended Hemlock, but somehow I have a
difficult time with the implication that "FR sounds good, and I'll
ignore all the Greenwood stuff".
(Correct me if that's not what you meant.)
In defense of Ed, this *is* his world we're talking about.
People played in it - read about it - and read snippets of it
for years. They liked what they saw - and wanted to play in/with
it themselves.
The concepts and general "atmosphere" is still one of the best
out there. It is about the closest thing I've seen to meeting
my concept of a "medieval fantasy -swords-and-sorcery- roleplaying"
game setting. Now there are several other sub-genre setting
with emphasis on particular concepts or aspect - such as
Dark Sun or Ravensloft or... but these have usually met with
the "oh this is great, lets play....now it's getting boring" response
from some of our group.
Now, do we play "strict" FR ? No, of course not.
We use the ideas we like, and those we can't use (for
whatever reasons) we put aside. But we do play as close
as we're comfortable with.
I'm just pleased that we haven't seen any of the pompous
edicts that were sometimes seen issuing from EGG about
"if you're not playing strictly by these holy rules, you're
playing some filthy mutation and are anathema"
Not that we ever paid any attention to him.
But EGGs world was *his*, and what we used or didn't use
were created in *his* world. And Ed's Realms are *his*,
and those of us that do play one or another version
(or "shadow") of his world do so only because of his
original creativity - which has since been expanded
and tweaked by dozens of others.
Now, all that said - I also agree that it is becoming
mildly annoying with "pet characters" that are virtually
indestructible and can do no real wrong.
Both Elminster and Drizzzzzzzzzzzt are fitting into
this category to some extent.
But again - these are the characters that a vast majority of
readers are asking for - as witness the sales of the books.
And they are good, enjoyable (or enjoyed at any rate)
characters because their authors do a pretty damn decent job
of fulfilling the requirements of their readers.
C'mon, have you never read some of the potboilers such as
"the Destroyer", "Matt Helm", "Jake Slocum", or any of a
number of what I call _Harlequins for Heroes_ --- series
of books with nearly indestructible characters.?
Westerns where you can't swing a cat without getting fur on
a dozen steel-eyed, leather-skinned, quick-drawing desperadoes.
Adventure novels with a hero that get -grazed- by bullets
at least twice in every damn issue (check the Executioner books).
Spy novels in which you are hard pressed to find anyone, from
the fishmonger to the insurance salesman, that isn't an agent.
So, am I still buying books with Elminster and Drizzt in them?
Yep. But not every damn one. And if I get annoyed enough,
I'll stop. Presumably other intelligent adults can do the same.
If the characters/writing deteriorates enough, they'll go away.
>Hemlock
>BTW, I agree completely about Manshoon.
Well, I too would like to see Manshoon as a little better opponent
for the all-pervasive Elminster. But maybe neither of
them (Man. & El.) want to see that.;-)
Mike Sharkey
MnPSh...@aol.com
When the only tool you own is a hammer,
every problem begins to resemble a nail. -- Abraham Maslow
Dave
MnPSharkey <mnpsh...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19971228154...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
| Now, all that said - I also agree that it is becoming
| mildly annoying with "pet characters" that are virtually
| indestructible and can do no real wrong.
| Both Elminster and Drizzzzzzzzzzzt are fitting into
| this category to some extent.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Drizzzzzzzzzzzt the fault of R. A.
Salvatore and not Ed Greenwood?
--
-Dave
Fairbanks was to Sullivan as Parcells is to Kraft
Dave
HELLGUEST <hell...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19971228035...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
| >Mike Wilson said:
|
| >The reason Greyhawk is making a return is because it was canceled
during
| >the times of unrest in TSR. We all know the major reason and she
no
| >longer has control of such matters and thankfully Peter and crew
have
| >enough sense to market something for those of us that like a
heroic
| >fantasy setting.
|
sales.
| Others have claimed with some justifacation that the post EGG
greyhawk
| sucked. Quite possibly so. But the major problems did not hit
until 1993 when
| M:tG dried up the market.
It can be argued that lack of resources given to Greyhawk helped
hasten its cancellation. Of the last Greyhawk releases, how many
were *not* written by Carl Sargent? Compare the support given FR
with the support given GH. One product every so often is not a way
to build up a target base of consumers. I think low output led to
low sales which led to GH being cancelled.
Dave
Toby Mekelburg <to...@SPAMSUCKlava.net> wrote in article
<34a5666a...@news.lava.net>...
| "Michael Argyle, MD" <arg...@pilot.msu.edu> wrote:
| >The single worst decision in the history of TSR was the one to
utilize
| >that overindulgent, excessive, laughable trash known as the Realms
as
| >their flagship campaign world. In fact that was the beginning of
the
| >end, low those many years ago. All this recent trouble was from
that
| >incalculable error and their continued syncophantic treatment of
| >Greenwood. Good thing this hobby is what you make of it and not
what
| >someone makes of it for you.....or I wouldn't be around flaming in
the
| >D&D newsgroup today ;)
|
| Well, I think it was a better decision than making GH the flagship
| world. When Gygax left, it was the death knell for that setting.
| However, the Realms are in good hands even should something happen
to
| Ed.
With Roger Moore overseeing GH, don't be surprised if Oerth starts
making a little bit of a comeback.
vr...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Wilson, M.D. (Nos...@me.com) wrote:
: Actually, he's done a fairly good job of convincing me to look into FR
: itself. Apparently, much of what I hate can be avoided by cutting out
: Greenwood.
: I've no personal vendetta against Ed Greenwood, but I think it's
: interesting that no one has come to his defense. I guess that means
: Xander did a good job of presenting his case. :)
Well, I'll come to his defense (sort of). Ed Greenwood has done some good
stuff in the past. His articles in Dragon years ago were excellent,
before FR was published, notably the ones detailing magical items. He
created interesting stories about magical swords or shields, giving them
background and detail and none of them were overly powerful. I think the
quality of those articles lead to TSR chosing to develop the Forgotten
Realms as their next big game world.
Having said that I must say that I was immediately disappointed with FR
when it came out. Too many goofy names for characters and very little
attention to how all the different elements interacted with each other.
The place had no feel for any history that brought it to the place where
it was at.
Michael Argyle, MD
Dave wrote:
>
> With Roger Moore overseeing GH, don't be surprised if Oerth starts
> making a little bit of a comeback.
Sorry Dave, I disagree. I find a lot of Moore's recent ideas for
greyhawk too narrow and somewhat irritating. Greyhawk will make a
comeback because it is greyhawk. I actually enjoyed a lot of what
seargent had done with the setting, it is too bad they lost him.
Doctari
verkuilen john v
"Dave" <davrion.99%spam...@concentric.net> writes:
>It can be argued that lack of resources given to Greyhawk helped
>hasten its cancellation. Of the last Greyhawk releases, how many
>were *not* written by Carl Sargent? Compare the support given FR
>with the support given GH. One product every so often is not a way
>to build up a target base of consumers. I think low output led to
>low sales which led to GH being cancelled.
Low output, little support, little marketing, especially as compared to
FR. Sargent's stuff was well done but there were some other Greyhawk
materials that wasn't so good. TSR's output was suffering overall IMO under
the reign of the Bucky Bitch.
--
J. Verkuilen ja...@uiuc.edu
"Things are not as bad as they seem, they are worse than that. They are also
better than that. We do not see life as it is, but as we perceive it to be."
--Robert Fripp
Pinochet
NOIP wrote in message <34A5AF...@email.psu.edu>...
Couldn't read the part that attributes the post Xander?
Though you could have taken someone else's identity...or someone
could have taken yours....oh the paranoia!!
Pinochet
Michael Argyle, MD wrote in message <34A61F...@pilot.msu.edu>...
>Jason Hatter wrote:
>> I'm one of those people that think that Salvatore should be shot for
>> everything he's written since The Halflings' Gem...
>
>I'll have to include the hafling's gem in the reasons for execution<g>
Nah, we can forgive everyone once..
Alexander Miller
"Xander" <obli...@mbox3.singnet.com.sg> writes:
>The title isn't too thought-provoking...so I suppose I'll be straight to
>the point. Fans of Ed Greenwood (if there are any) are likely gonna flame
>me...but the fact is that Mr. Greenwood has a few serious problems for the
>FR world. Some of you are going to contest me on the point that it is not a
>requisite of an FR DM/role-player to like or endorse Greenwood products -
>but Greenwood is admittably the creator of the Realms and a HELL lot of FR
>products.
snip
>point: Who rules the Brotherhood of the Arcane? Greenwood, in Volo's Guide
>to the North (pg 121-123), states: (not quoting) a bunch of
>mages...featuring the level 22 Quelthar Thaeloon and 4 other Overwizards of
>level 19+, with level 17 assistants! Ok...the LE hm P12 is an exception -
>but a known psionic. From the boxed set of the North we have an 18th level
>wizard at the helm, and that funny guy from the Icewind Dale trilogy -
>mm..yeah, Dendybar the Mottled (level 8) as an Overwizard. The Avatar
>series was perfectly plausible - so why the hell did Greenwood have to
>write the "Shadow of the Avatar" series with Elminster and his group of
>Harper sluts and pimps kicking ass, kicking ass and kicking ass. (He turned
>an army of Zhents into stone. Sharantyr, a level 7 fighter and Itharr and
>Belkram, whops the asses of half a million Zhents without fear of death. I
>say *SIGH* Boring. Absolute Greenwood predictable crap.) Man, is he so
>insecure that people won't acknowledge the power of his pet character that
>he plays during Gen Con?
hehe, Agree 100%:)
>Oooh. Elminster's a wizard, a fighter, a rogue and a priestess.
>(Elminster...Makings of a Mage) So he has all class abilities. In Heroes
>Lorebook he has psionics. He's great...kissed by Mystra. A virtual
>immortal. A REAL boring guy that makes me dread to meet its creator in real
>life.
Yes, psionics with a psp equivalent to a level 19 psionicist, all
att/defence modes and no listed sciences/devotions. Compare this to a wild
talent with about 20% of the psps and one sci/devotion. IMO he put this in
simply to prevent mind control etc by psionicists, not for any other
reason. To make Elminster even more unbeatable:P.
>What happens in Spellfire and Crown of Fire? Combat, combat and combat. All
>one-sided..all predictable. No plot, boring hackneyed language, flat main
>characters and laughable attempts to make everyone worship Elminster the Ao
>and Shandril his Slut Supreme. Comparing this to Salvatore is like
>comparing a Spice Girl's intelligence with Einstein's. It's not enough that
>he does it in the novels. Game products suffer from an avalanche from his
>shitpile - Spellfire. The billions of artifacts in Volo's guide to all
>things magical. Archmages in every city. (FR Adventures hardback check the
>preceding statement) It's blatant enough to make me sick.
>Oh well. I've also noticed that some of you in other posts think that
>Manshoon and the Zhentarim are absolute idiots. Let me correct that notion
>to that as presented in sourcebooks like Ruins of Zhentil Keep. (Really
>good boxed set. Really recommended over stuff such as Volo's guides to
>Greenwood's boring crap) Firstly, Manshoon and the Zhentarim are oppressed
>by the evil Greenwood - it's not true Manshoon dies every other week. It's
>not true Manshoon is dumb. It's not true the Zhentarim go "And you die by
>the hand of me, old mage" and then die. The Zhentarim are if anything, a
>highly intelligent, highly subtle and ambitious group which can really rule
>the world if not for their many agendas. Manshoon has an 18 intelligence.
>And a description that says..
>"..quite content to flee danger. Many have tried to destroy him and none
>has suceeded; HE IS CAREFUL, AND NEVER LETS HIS TEMPER MASTER HIS REASON,
>AND IS ALWAYS ALERT. HE SEEMS AN UNBEATABLE FOE; OTHERS FACE DANGER TO DO
>HIS BIDDING, BUT HE IS NEVER THERE TO FACE THE MUSIC." (Running the Realms
>page 37)
Yes, this description impresses me more than Elminsters traits.
>Talk about controversy. Greenwood's Manshoon is DUMB. Greenwood-dumb.
>Definitely not Manshoon.
Agreed, in one of his books, Elminster meets with an archlich, kissing her
on her rotting mouth btw, rather a stomach churning idea really, but
considering Ed's apparent obsession with sex.. all my opinion of course,
but consider, mystra has the seven sisters, all complete babes of course,
there are numerous 'sexual' innuendoes throughout his book(s) esp between
El and them. Maybe its just me, but it seems a little sickly:). One of the
earlier posts i read ( a different thread, but about Ed's chars ) just
cracked me up. It went pretty much as follows:
>Even if you manage to kill Elminster, he'll simply turn up in Mystra's
>Realm, and what do you think Mystra will do when she sees Elminster
>before her throne as her newest petitioner?
and someone replied:
>Have sex with him probably, knowing Ed Greenwoods writing!
But, all this is an aside, in the scene where Elminster kisses this
Archlich, Manshoon casts some really powerful spell, and charges in all
guns blazing, trying to kill Elminster.
Now, this is nothing the description of Manshoon as shown above.
Manshoon would NEVER charge in trying to kill Elminster himself, and never
when the said Elminster is standing next to a rotting corpse, quite
reminiscent of a lich! Thats tantamount to suicide, and a complete
misrepresentation of Manshoon. And he does commit suicide seeing as the
archlich blows him away.:P Blah Ed!
>The actual Manshoon is a very cool guy whom the DM
>enjoys as a sort of ultimate arch-villain...a sort of guy players love to
>hate - and respect.
>And Manshoon and the Zhentarim should be very respected. They are an
>entirely plausible organization which generates lots of intrigue to
>intrigue-based adventures.
>1. They don't have insanely bloated character levels. Although this is a
>bit weird given their foes, but then when you think of Greenwood's
>bias...not weird. Then again, the Zhentarim look like the product of some
>other FR team guy...some other guy more rational. :-)
>2. They are shadowy, smart and never overconfident. E.g. Manshoon moved
>base of operatives to the Citadel 6 months before Cyrinishad fiasco.
>Not meaning to say Greenwood hasn't done good - well, he invented the
>Realms. :-) What else? Drow of the Underdark perhaps. Yep..that's not too
>bad. Although it's rumored Greenwood invented the drow, ergo drow's
>supermagic. DUH! If they want to make a cool kickass race, make a cool
>believable kickass race!!!
Yes two points about the Drow really bug me. The insane magic resistance.
Nothing like maybe 30% which in my opinion would be reasonable. But
instead, 50 + 2%/level ... co*bullshit*ugh! ie at level 20 for example,
90% ridiculous, esp as they can be player chars.
And secondly, they are unlimited as mages! Yeah right, why are they
unlimited, when virtually no race save humans are. Normal elves have
STRICT limits wrt magic and why should drow be any different? smells fishy
to me...
All you need now is a level 25 drow archmage with 100% MR.. and i hear one
is near that level:P And with no level restriction, its almost easy to get
to high levels in say, 600 years, and long before then, potions of youth
would be easy to manufacture.. in the FR anyway.
>There...got a whole load off my mind. Thanks for reading..appreciate any
>and all responses. Would love to hear from you fellow DMs and players.
>P.S. For any of you who think that Zhentarim are too low-level, email me
>for a emailed zipped up Word 7.0 format revision of the Zhentarim to make
>them viable but not super-Greenwood-powerful. You can see there is a
>relativity to the rest of the Realms...their wizards are generally lower
>levels than Red Wizards. And also available with it, all in Word 7.0
>format, are NPCs, new magical items, hierachy tree for the Zhentarim, and
>other Zhentarim-related info - all highly elaborate with scanned artwork.
>It's not for profit and use of all trademarks is not intended to challenge
>the rights of the owner. If there's a site willing to sponsor this for
>downloading I'll be glad to accept the sponsorship.
Glad to get this stuff off my chest too
Alex :)
Xander
So...there are Greenwood supporters ensconed within the Undermountain! ;-)
Regards,
Xander
"Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in his shoes. Then you'll be a
mile away, and you'll have his shoes."
Jason Hatter <Towo...@cris.com> wrote in article
<6854v6$d...@examiner.concentric.net>...
> Not really. Just that most of the FR fan-base does NOT read this
> newsgroup. Personally, i disagree with most of Xanders post, but then,
> I'm one of those people that think that Salvatore should be shot for
> everything he's written since The Halflings' Gem...
Toby Mekelburg
Did the covers for P&P, LOI, and I believe Four From Cormyr.
Toby Mekelburg
"Xander" <obli...@mbox3.singnet.com.sg> wrote:
>Jason Hatter <Towo...@cris.com> wrote in article
><6854v6$d...@examiner.concentric.net>...
>> Not really. Just that most of the FR fan-base does NOT read this
>> newsgroup. Personally, i disagree with most of Xanders post, but then,
>> I'm one of those people that think that Salvatore should be shot for
>> everything he's written since The Halflings' Gem...
>So...there are Greenwood supporters ensconed within the Undermountain! ;-)
Well, this NG is seen largely as a general AD&D discussion area. The
various campaign settings do get brought up once in a while, but they
account for a minor part of the discussion.
That's what the individual mailing lists are for. And even on the FR
list, there are a few people who feel the way you do, and there are
more instances of Ed-suppporting posts. Not blindly supportive, but
supportive nonetheless.
Mike High
Does he suck? Hmmmm, that might be a TAD harsh. Is he a hack? You bet!
Elminister might just as well be a god, since he simply shoots off to
whatever troubles a brewin' & vaporizes it. & the Spellfire thing? Oh
joy, suck up some of the magic oozing around by all means, but dont blow
it back out as the ultimate weapon that NOTHING withstands! Maybe Eds
just sexually frustrated, thats why he lives vicariously through his all
powerful randy old goat. The perfect solution would be Elminister
bonking Shandril and both imploding due to the disturbances created...
Steven Taylor
Mike High wrote:
> The perfect solution would be Elminister
> bonking Shandril and both imploding due to the disturbances created...
Hey! Maybe we hve a winner for the old "Kill Elminster" thread that
raged on a while back
Steven Taylor
StephenJ
Dave wrote:
>
> HELLGUEST <hell...@aol.com> wrote in article
> <19971228035...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> | >Mike Wilson said:
> |
> | >The reason Greyhawk is making a return is because it was canceled
> during
> | >the times of unrest in TSR. We all know the major reason and she
> no
> | >longer has control of such matters and thankfully Peter and crew
> have
> | >enough sense to market something for those of us that like a
> heroic
> | >fantasy setting.
> |
> | Ahhh No, not even close. GH was closed out in 1992 or so from poor
> sales.
> | Others have claimed with some justifacation that the post EGG
> greyhawk
> | sucked. Quite possibly so. But the major problems did not hit
> until 1993 when
> | M:tG dried up the market.
>
> hasten its cancellation. Of the last Greyhawk releases, how many
> were *not* written by Carl Sargent? Compare the support given FR
> with the support given GH. One product every so often is not a way
> to build up a target base of consumers. I think low output led to
> low sales which led to GH being cancelled.
>
I agree. I seemed obvious to me that starting with the introduction of
FR in 1987 that the de-emphasis of Greyhawk was part of the William's
regime's efforts to "de-Gygaxify" ADD. TSR defenders can claim that the
resource disparity between GH and FR reflected greater consumer demand
for FR, but companies create demand, they don't merely respond to it.
And clearly, between 1988 and 1991, TSR devoted far more resources to FR
than GH, including making FR the "official" campaign setting for Second
edition....
Mike Brokowski
In article <19971226211...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
SaraBear25 <sarab...@aol.com> wrote:
>I agree with almost everything you said. I stopped playing in the Realms. You
>can't swing a dead cat without hitting five demi-godlike NPC's. And I find
>Greenwood's book to be nearly unreadable (IMHO).
Yup. And, frankly, I *like* powerful wizards. But Greenwood can't
seem to help himself in taking Elminster from being a *really*
powerful character (circa '89) that still could've somehow existed
to being nothing less than an actual insult to the intelligence of the
reader. Nowadays, knowing how powerful he is, Elminster must be
brain-damaged to ever be challenged by the villains he faces. Kinda
like the old Superman character (remember?), when you sat there
thinking, "Last month, he vaporized an entire fraggin' *planet*
with his heat vision, so how come now he can't just melt Luthor's
ray-gun?" :-)
>My personal pet peeve: on the covers of Salvatore's Drizzt books, the cover ar
>depicts Drizzt looking like he's more into Geritol, Polident, and Depends the
>"whirling scimitars" why does the artist insist upon making Drizzt look 80
>(human age equivlant)? And not only 80, but ugly and grumpy too? From what I
>understand from the books, Drizzt is supposed to be quite the tasty tender
>morsel of studly young manflesh....er, elf-flesh. Doesn't he have a 15 Cha or
>something like that? He should bury Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise but they have him
>looking more like an eldery Lurch from the Addam's Family.
Hmm. Several posters have seen fit to blame the artists for their
choices of Drizzt's appearance, and they may be right. I have a
different possibility to consider: author egomania. Find one of the
Drizzt books that has a picture of Salvatore in the back and compare
that with the cover.... Has anyone else noticed the similarity there?
Just a thought,
Mike
brokows...@TOnwu.eduREPLY
(remove CAPITALIZED letters to email me.)
Best recent r.g.f.dnd quote:
> What would be the hight of a very tall elf?
About 35 feet.
(reply by Zachary P. Stewart, mar...@sgi.net)
Threshold
In article <68e9pm$p...@news.acns.nwu.edu>, brokows...@TOnwu.eduREPLY
(Mike Brokowski) wrote:
>In article <19971226211...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>>My personal pet peeve: on the covers of Salvatore's Drizzt books, the cover ar
>>depicts Drizzt looking like he's more into Geritol, Polident, and Depends the
>>"whirling scimitars" why does the artist insist upon making Drizzt look 80
>>(human age equivlant)? And not only 80, but ugly and grumpy too? From what I
>>understand from the books, Drizzt is supposed to be quite the tasty tender
>>morsel of studly young manflesh....er, elf-flesh. Doesn't he have a 15 Cha or
>>something like that? He should bury Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise but they have him
>>looking more like an eldery Lurch from the Addam's Family.
NO SHIT! Jesus that is annoying. In the old Icewind Dale trilogy they drew
him really cool. He looked pretty badass. Then all these hardcover books
came out and he's like Jimmy Stewart with pointy ears.
>Hmm. Several posters have seen fit to blame the artists for their
>choices of Drizzt's appearance, and they may be right. I have a
>different possibility to consider: author egomania. Find one of the
>Drizzt books that has a picture of Salvatore in the back and compare
>that with the cover.... Has anyone else noticed the similarity there?
Rofl. That would be pathetic if thats the case! =)
-Aristotle@Threshold
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Dave Brohman
> In article <19971226211...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> >My personal pet peeve: on the covers of Salvatore's Drizzt books, the cover ar
> >depicts Drizzt looking like he's more into Geritol, Polident, and Depends the
> >"whirling scimitars" why does the artist insist upon making Drizzt look 80
> >(human age equivlant)? And not only 80, but ugly and grumpy too? From what I
> >understand from the books, Drizzt is supposed to be quite the tasty tender
> >morsel of studly young manflesh....er, elf-flesh. Doesn't he have a 15 Cha or
> >something like that? He should bury Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise but they have him
> >looking more like an eldery Lurch from the Addam's Family.
Some of them aren't too bad, but the "Starless Night" cover is the worst
example of the type of picture you describe. Not only does he look like
he's about 85, he has pale white skin (some Drow!) and Catie-Brie looks
like she is sbout 12 years old.
"C'mere young Catie-Brie. Come sit on Grampa Drizzt's lap."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Brohman Carleton University dbro...@chat.carleton.ca
"If cats looked like frogs we'd realize what nasty, cruel little
bastards they are."
- Terry Pratchett, Lord and Ladies
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Derek Becker
Threshold wrote:
>
> In article <19980103013...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, sarab...@aol.com (SaraBear25) wrote:
> >I noticed the same artist did the cover of Daughter of the Drow. S/He made the
> >main character (I can't remember her name right off the top of my head) look
> >very,well, "frumpy" comes to mind. A goofy circa 1980's feathered hairdo and a
> >double chin. Ugh. She was described in the books as being very beautiful.
>
> Maybe the artist is really ugly and frumpy in real life and is either:
>
> 1) jealous of the characters he/she is drawing or
> 2) trying to redefine beautiful to more what the artist looks like
Most artists either hire models or paint people that they know. Imagine
the following coversation between Bob the artist and his girlfriend,
Sue:
BOB: Hey honey! I just got commissioned to do a book cover!
I'm gonna get a real sexy model to pose for me right now!
SUE: Why do that? Why not use me? Don't you think I'm
beautiful?
BOB: Um ... well ... sure honey.
Derek
bec...@erols.com
Threshold
In article <68jilc$j...@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca>, dbro...@chat.carleton.ca (Dave Brohman) wrote:
> Some of them aren't too bad, but the "Starless Night" cover is the worst
> example of the type of picture you describe. Not only does he look like
> he's about 85, he has pale white skin (some Drow!) and Catie-Brie looks
> like she is sbout 12 years old.
>
> "C'mere young Catie-Brie. Come sit on Grampa Drizzt's lap."
ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No kidding. At best they draw his skin a light grey which is just
ridiculous. I hesitate to say this, but are they afraid to draw him black
for fear of some kind of racial reaction?
In the Icewind Dale trilogy his skin was jet black and he looked like a bad
ass. I think it was right about the time they started putting out Drizzt
books in hard back and drawing him like a grandpa that I started to despite
Drizzt. At least when he LOOKED cool and his books were cheap paperback it
was fun to read about how much ass he kicked =)
SaraBear25
It just ain't right. Being the girly-girl that I am, I dig a little romance in
my Fantasy fiction, and the books do make out Drizzt to be something of yummy
lovemuffin of elven handsomeness, and the cover art of him is pretty
dissapointing. I'm not saying I want him depicted clad only in a chainmail
codpice and a smile, but maybe the artist could have put a little effort into
making him look like a romantic hero.
( Isn't Drizzt only around 70 years old? Thus making him extremely young by
elven standards? Practically a child, right? Didn't I read somewhere that's
he's a 16th level Ranger? That seems odd, since he's practically a kid)
I noticed the same artist did the cover of Daughter of the Drow. S/He made the
main character (I can't remember her name right off the top of my head) look
very,well, "frumpy" comes to mind. A goofy circa 1980's feathered hairdo and a
double chin. Ugh. She was described in the books as being very beautiful.
and recessive chins, no wonder they live in the dark. :->
Threshold
>main character (I can't remember her name right off the top of my head) look
>very,well, "frumpy" comes to mind. A goofy circa 1980's feathered hairdo and a
>double chin. Ugh. She was described in the books as being very beautiful.
Maybe the artist is really ugly and frumpy in real life and is either:
1) jealous of the characters he/she is drawing or
2) trying to redefine beautiful to more what the artist looks like
=)
sunhi
>It just ain't right. Being the girly-girl that I am, I dig a little romance in
>my Fantasy fiction, and the books do make out Drizzt to be something of yummy
>lovemuffin of elven handsomeness, and the cover art of him is pretty
>dissapointing. I'm not saying I want him depicted clad only in a chainmail
>codpice and a smile, but maybe the artist could have put a little effort into
>making him look like a romantic hero.
I've gotta agree. I've noticed that he looks older than is stated a
few times! He didn't look that old on the cover of the Icewind Dale
trilogy. I wonder why if the recent artists who are told they're
painting a seventy year old elf know that elves live longer. <grin>
jenn
--
"Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time."
-- Stephen Wright
BADMIKE3
>>>My personal pet peeve: on the covers of Salvatore's Drizzt books, the cover
>ar
>>>depicts Drizzt looking like he's more into Geritol, Polident, and Depends
>the
>>>"whirling scimitars" why does the artist insist upon making Drizzt look 80
>>>(human age equivlant)? And not only 80, but ugly and grumpy too? From what
>I
>>>understand from the books, Drizzt is supposed to be quite the tasty tender
>>>morsel of studly young manflesh....er, elf-flesh. Doesn't he have a 15 Cha
>or
>>>something like that? He should bury Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise but they have
>him
>>>looking more like an eldery Lurch from the Addam's Family.
>
>him really cool. He looked pretty badass. Then all these hardcover books
>came out and he's like Jimmy Stewart with pointy ears.
>
>>Hmm. Several posters have seen fit to blame the artists for their
>>choices of Drizzt's appearance, and they may be right. I have a
>>different possibility to consider: author egomania. Find one of the
>>Drizzt books that has a picture of Salvatore in the back and compare
>>that with the cover.... Has anyone else noticed the similarity there?
Actually, on the AOL Forgotten Realms board a year or so ago, author
Elaine Cunningham expressed her disappointment in the cover drawing of Daughter
of the Drow. Apparantly the artist (Fred Fields?) drew the female drow
character using his GIRLFRIEND as the model. Needless to say, she's not a
beautiful young Drow chick but a middle aged woman....BTW, that's Fred Fields
drawing himself as Khelben Blackstaff on the cover of the Waterdeep boxed set.
Elaine Cunningham also added that TSR's authors have absolutely zero
control over the cover art for their books, which explains the 3 million year
old Drizzt and the other goofy mistakes (EX Bruenor Battlehammer is definitely
NOT a dwarf on the cover of the first Icewind Dales book...).
Mike B.
Jason Hatter
BADMIKE3 (badm...@aol.com) wrote:
: old Drizzt and the other goofy mistakes (EX Bruenor Battlehammer is definitely
: NOT a dwarf on the cover of the first Icewind Dales book...).
??? He's not? Could have fooled me. Shorter than both Wulfgar AND
Drizzt. Remember, dwarves are 4+ feet tall, and mountain dwarves (ie,
Bruenor) are 4.5 + feet tall, and 5' is easily possible.
Bertil Jonell
In article <68e9pm$p...@news.acns.nwu.edu>,
Mike Brokowski <brokows...@TOnwu.eduREPLY> wrote:
>In article <19971226211...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>>I agree with almost everything you said. I stopped playing in the Realms. You
>>can't swing a dead cat without hitting five demi-godlike NPC's. And I find
>>Greenwood's book to be nearly unreadable (IMHO).
>
>Yup. And, frankly, I *like* powerful wizards. But Greenwood can't
>seem to help himself in taking Elminster from being a *really*
>powerful character (circa '89)
There's the question of how much of the post-89 Realms that is Greenwood
and how much that is TSR...
>Find one of the
>Drizzt books that has a picture of Salvatore in the back and compare
>that with the cover.... Has anyone else noticed the similarity there?
I saw Salvatore at Gencon 92 and he had dark hair, light skin, and
wasn't wearing any scimitars. I don't know about eyes or ears but if they
had been red/pointy I'm sure I would have noticed:)
-bertil-
--
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
exercise for your kill-file."
James Lowder
>Elaine Cunningham also added that TSR's authors have absolutely zerocontrol over the cover art for their books,..."<
Pretty much true. When there is a beneficent executive editor in charge
of books, authors are asked for cover suggestions and
character descriptions. (That doesn't mean they'll be followed, but the
authors are asked to provide them.) The artists and art director then
have a lot of control over how much those suggestions are utilized. But
authors often have no input beyond the suggestion stage.
Now, if the person running the book division cares little for authors,
writers aren't even asked for suggestions. (It's no surprise that many of
the covers from late '94 to last year had little to do with the books
they "promoted.")
Thankfully, the people running and working in the book division now seem
interested in getting author input again.
I was fortunate with most of my books for TSR. The covers for Ring of
Winter and Prince of Lies were _exactly_ what I asked for. I liked the
covers for Crusade and Knight of the Black Rose, too. And, yes, Larry
Elmore painted himself as Azoun on Crusade.
Just a side note: the reading public wouldn't necessarily want authors to
have complete control over book covers. Unless they have an idea of what
makes up a good book cover, and what a book cover's purpose is (to sell
books), authors have been known to come up with some really bad
suggestions. (I came up with a bad one for Realms of Valor, but Clyde
Caldwell talked me out of it--the resulting cover was great.)
Cheers,
James Lowder
Jacqueline Morgan Allgood
d9be...@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell) wrote:
>>Find one of the
>>Drizzt books that has a picture of Salvatore in the back and compare
>>that with the cover.... Has anyone else noticed the similarity there?
>
> I saw Salvatore at Gencon 92 and he had dark hair, light skin, and
>wasn't wearing any scimitars. I don't know about eyes or ears but if they
>had been red/pointy I'm sure I would have noticed:)
>
>-bertil-
LOL! But don't you know, Drizzt has violet eyes, not the typical red eyes
of the drow.
\=/, _-===-_-====-_-===-_-==========-_-====-_
| @___oo ( )
/\ /\ / (___,,,}_--= Hugs & Blessings, )
) /^\) ^\/ _) =__ )
) /^\/ _) (_ Morgan )
) _ / / _) ( mor...@indy.net )
/\ )/\/ || | )_) (_ )
< > |(,,) )__) ( )
|| / \)___)\ (_ )
| \____( )___) )___ -==-_____-=====-_____-=====-___==
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Dave Brohman
Threshold (thre...@counseltech.com) wrote:
> In article <19980103013...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, sarab...@aol.com (SaraBear25) wrote:
> >I noticed the same artist did the cover of Daughter of the Drow. S/He made the
> >main character (I can't remember her name right off the top of my head) look
> >very,well, "frumpy" comes to mind. A goofy circa 1980's feathered hairdo and a
> >double chin. Ugh. She was described in the books as being very beautiful.
> Maybe the artist is really ugly and frumpy in real life and is either:
> 1) jealous of the characters he/she is drawing or
> 2) trying to redefine beautiful to more what the artist looks like
Or 3) He can't afford to hire good models!
*The Forever Man*
On Mon, 29 Dec 1997 23:26:14 GMT, to...@lava.net (Toby Mekelburg)
wrote:
>j...@sound.net (*The Forever Man*) wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 27 Dec 1997 20:34:00 GMT, to...@SPAMSUCKlava.net (Toby
>>Mekelburg) wrote:
>>>Now Todd Lockwood is painting a majority of FR covers, and he is a
>>>*great* improvement over those two. He has a Elmore style that goes
>>>well with the Realms.
>>>
>>
>>Really? I haven't been keeping up with the latest FR novels. What
>>covers has he done? I'm a big fan of Elmore and anyone that has his
>>style can't be too bad.
>
>Did the covers for P&P, LOI, and I believe Four From Cormyr.
>
Really? I haven't been keeping up with the latest FR novels. (Didn't
I mention that?) What are P&P, LOI, and Four From Cormyr?