Priest Spell Access in 2nd Ed AD&D
Silveras
Here's a question that I'd like to see some opinions on: How to
handle increasing spell spheres for Priests?
Let me summarize the origin of this question:
First there was the PHB, with sixteen spell spheres. The Cleric
class description gave them access to twelve of them (all figures
presume the "ALL" sphere already) with most being major access, while
Druids received more granted powers but much fewer spell choices.
Next was Legends and Lore, with Priests based upon earthly myths;
most of those Priests seemed balanced against the standard Cleric.
Then there was the Complete Priests' Handbook, which suggested
limiting the Priests' spell selection based upon combat options and
making up any differences in granted powers. Therein, the author
pointed out that using that system for creating "custom" Priests, the
Cleric would always have much more power than any specialty Priest
(since that seems logically *wrong*, I assume some of you have
already wrestled with that). The result: a suggestion to "tone down"
the Cleric - the whopping 12 spheres gets reduced to 4 (2 each Major
and Minor). OK, seems reasonable enough. Then comes the Tome of
Magic, adding another bunch of spheres. And in various places, the
new spheres are *added* to the spell accesses for published Priests
in Legends and Lore, the Forgotten Realms, etc.
So now we get to my question: What do *you* think is the best
answer to balancing Priests? Should the number of spheres allowed
based on combat abilities be increased when new spheres are added, or
does it make sense to keep a Priest's powers narrowly focused within
the religion ? I'm curious as to the popular answer.
Jim Sisolak
[...]
S> using that system for creating "custom" Priests, the Cleric would
S> always have much more power than any specialty Priest (since that
S> seems logically *wrong*, I assume some of you have already wrestled
S> with that). The result: a suggestion to "tone down" the Cleric - the
Our solution was to disallow normal clerics. The game, to us, seemed
more interesting if all deities had specific spell lists. If you allow
general clerics, there's nothing a certain religion "can't do," because
the general clerics can do everything. For example, you can't have a
religion with no access to necromancy, or healing. Toning the clerics
down helps reduce this problem, but doesn't eliminate it.
Note, however, that I'm pretty generous with spheres as a DM - I tend
to add some extras to the published ones. Otherwise, some religions
are crippled.
[...]
S> So now we get to my question: What do *you* think is the best answer
S> to balancing Priests? Should the number of spheres allowed based on
S> combat abilities be increased when new spheres are added, or does it
Yes. We add whatever new spheres seem appropriate and say that the
deity has changed the spells it offers.
--
Jim Sisolak | University of Wisconsin - Madison
http://trans4.neep.wisc.edu/sisolak | Department of Nuclear Engineering
Alex Oren
: "S" == Silveras <silv...@aol.com> writes:
: Ý...¨
: S> using that system for creating "custom" Priests, the Cleric would
: S> always have much more power than any specialty Priest (since that
: S> seems logically *wrong*, I assume some of you have already wrestled
: S> with that). The result: a suggestion to "tone down" the Cleric - the
: Our solution was to disallow normal clerics. The game, to us, seemed
: more interesting if all deities had specific spell lists. If you allow
: general clerics, there's nothing a certain religion "can't do," because
: the general clerics can do everything. For example, you can't have a
: religion with no access to necromancy, or healing. Toning the clerics
: down helps reduce this problem, but doesn't eliminate it.
: Note, however, that I'm pretty generous with spheres as a DM - I tend
: to add some extras to the published ones. Otherwise, some religions
: are crippled.
: Ý...¨
: S> So now we get to my question: What do *you* think is the best answer
: S> to balancing Priests? Should the number of spheres allowed based on
: S> combat abilities be increased when new spheres are added, or does it
: Yes. We add whatever new spheres seem appropriate and say that the
: deity has changed the spells it offers.
The question remains however, how do I assign spheres in a balanced
manner (considering Fighting abilities etc.) Where some spheres have
more powerful spells than others (or just more spells)?
Alex.
Silveras
In article <SISOLAK.94...@trans4.neep.wisc.edu>,
sis...@trans4.neep.wisc.edu (Jim Sisolak) writes:
>Our solution was to disallow normal clerics. The game, to us,
seemed
>more interesting if all deities had specific spell lists. If you
allow
>general clerics, there's nothing a certain religion "can't do,"
because
>the general clerics can do everything. For example, you can't have
a
>religion with no access to necromancy, or healing. Toning the
clerics
>down helps reduce this problem, but doesn't eliminate it.
First, thanks for the responses....
Second, my own option when the Complete Priest's HB came out was
to depower the Cleric. I felt that while established large temples
would eb found in the larger cities and towns, the smaller rural
chapels and shrines would need Priests able to service multiple
deities within the Pantheon (assuming that the culture was not
monotheistic). So, I allowed the "generic Cleric" only as spokesman
for the whole Pantheon. For the spells that s/he would have access
to, the character could choose any 2 major and any 2 minor from the
spells allowed by any deity in the Pantheon.
This has worked fairly well so far, but the increased number of
available spheres have made the limits presented in the Complete
Priests' Handbook look too low. Instead of a fixed 2/3/4 each
Major/Minor, perhaps a proportional representation? Priests with
"good" combat get 1/8 th the number of available spheres Major and a
like number Minor; "medium" combat get 3/16ths, etc?
Again, thanks for responding...
Silveras
In article <19940617.144421...@VM.BIU.AC.IL>,
oren...@sunlight.cs.biu.ac.il (Alex Oren) writes:
>The question remains however, how do I assign spheres in a balanced
>manner (considering Fighting abilities etc.) Where some spheres have
>more powerful spells than others (or just more spells)?
First, thanks for responding....
Second, I've occasionally counted two small spheres as one when
assigning them, or have given an extra granted power. This does,
however, fall under the heading of "judgment calls."
Axl
>"S" == Silveras <silv...@aol.com> writes:
>
>[...]
> S> using that system for creating "custom" Priests, the Cleric would
> S> always have much more power than any specialty Priest (since that
> S> seems logically *wrong*, I assume some of you have already wrestled
> S> with that). The result: a suggestion to "tone down" the Cleric - the
>
>Our solution was to disallow normal clerics. The game, to us, seemed
>more interesting if all deities had specific spell lists. If you allow
>general clerics, there's nothing a certain religion "can't do," because
>the general clerics can do everything. For example, you can't have a
>religion with no access to necromancy, or healing. Toning the clerics
>down helps reduce this problem, but doesn't eliminate it.
>
I'd never allow a 'generic' cleric, it just would not make
much sense. They have to pray to some deity to receive their spells
after all.
I mainly go by the Adventures book that lists all the
specialty priests and their powers. Someone can still play a regular
cleric, but I'd make them choose to be a follower of one of the gods,
and they'd have to adhere to some of the gods ethos, but not as
rigidly as a specialty priest.
-axl
Todd O. Howard
> So now we get to my question: What do *you* think is the best
>answer to balancing Priests? Should the number of spheres allowed
>based on combat abilities be increased when new spheres are added, or
>does it make sense to keep a Priest's powers narrowly focused within
>the religion ? I'm curious as to the popular answer.
I'm for giving combat, powers, and spheres based on the focus of the
priesthood, and to the exclusion of any "balancing" factor. This
means that some priesthoods are better suited toward active (read:
adventuring) roles and others are suited to a more passive role
(such as a local priest, cloistered [sp?] cleric, etc).
As new spheres "appear", I look at the existing priesthoods and
determine if the new sphere applies. If it does, it is added,
if not, not. To answer your question (shoud priest spheres increase
as appropriate spheres "appear") in the context that you asked it:
yes, powers should expand *if appropriate to the (particular) priesthood*.
Todd
--
"The statistics on death are in: | "...but the free gift of God is
one out of every one people die." | eternal life..." --Romans 6:23
--Unknown |
Todd Howard (t...@clark.net)
Ed Zeamba
1) totally *ignore* the Priest HB's convention of Good/medium/poor
combat abilities and the cooresponding *very* few number of Major
Access Spheres.
The CPrHB is good for gaining ideas on creating new 'hoods but the
designer has no concept of preistly game balance IMEO, so don't
follow his suggested number of Spheres.
(though he did a good job with the FIghters HB, surprisingly...)`
Actaully, TSR has seemed to follow my number #1 pretty well actaully!
In the CPrHB you nearly always see the same number of Minor spheres
as Major Spheres. But where has this convention been used in other
TSR products?
*Nowhere* !
The Monster Mythology comes close with many of its spell selections
being average to below-ave. compared to say, Forgotten Realms 'hoods,
Greyhawk 'hoods and Legends and Lore 'hoods.
2) Use the Druid as the basis for specialty preisthood comparison.
You'll note that the Druid has relatively few spheres (relative to other
non-CPrHB sources) but many granted powers (at least Seven!).
Starting with this you can, say reduce the special Abilities to
Four, and add 3-4 Major Spheres.
3) Some Minor sphere are nearly worthless, even with the Tome of Magic!
So look carefully when handing them out. For instance Minor Astral
will give zero spells, while minor Summoning gives only 1 or 2 spells
(the Tome adds maybe one or two more, but nothing really significant)
4) Try to have about *twice* as many Major spheres as Minor ones, with
5 major, 3 minor being a good number. Don't be afraid to throw in Major
Astral or a couple minor sphers as you see fit, as on the whole this will
usually only mean less than 10 more spells to choose from.
5) use "Additional Spells" like the old Greyhawk Hardcover
This way you can throw-in spells you think the 'hood should have
that happen to fall outside your sphere selection
6) on the same note, try a "Banned Spells" sectionm if needed to disallow
spells on name-by-name basis. A general ban already established is the
*reversed only* form of spells. Why not instead (or in addition) single
out spells for banning?
My biggest bitch:
priests with varient dice for hit points!
Damn CPrHB idea again... All warrior types use d10, all rogues d6,
all wizard's d4, and all priests *should* be d8 *only* !
--
/ \
@###I===============> "Know me as GORD of GREYHAWK..." <===============I###@
\ /
ro...@cert.ucr.edu UC Riverside -- home of the Guildsman
Jim Sisolak
AO> The question remains however, how do I assign spheres in a balanced
AO> manner (considering Fighting abilities etc.) Where some spheres have
AO> more powerful spells than others (or just more spells)?
Balanced with what? I assign whatever spheres seem appropriate for the
deity's area of control. Not all the religions have equally powerful
priests. Such is life. As long as you exclude a few significant spheres
from the repertoire, a priest won't dominate play, so there shouldn't be a
problem. Some players will immediately jump for the "best" spell selection
to maximize their power. This gets boring in a hurry, and if it happens a
lot, it's evidence of a deeper problem which you can't fix by reassigning
spheres.
Alex Oren
: Greetings and Salutations!
: Here's a question that I'd like to see some opinions on: How to
: handle increasing spell spheres for Priests?
Ý ... ¨
: So now we get to my question: What do *you* think is the best
: answer to balancing Priests? Should the number of spheres allowed
: based on combat abilities be increased when new spheres are added, or
: does it make sense to keep a Priest's powers narrowly focused within
: the religion ? I'm curious as to the popular answer.
Here's my solution:
*WARNING*
The solution given here totally ignores "power" considerations,
only play-value, fun and PC balance (ie: everybody should enjoy the
game) is considered.
*EOW*
There are no "general" priests in my campaign, only priests of some
specific deities.
I think it makes the priest characters more unique and interesting.
When a player decides to play a priest (or a multiclass) we sit
together and decide upon the faith principles etc.
Then we consider what will be the spell spheres, granted powers and
restrictions appropriate to the faith.
As a starting point, I try to make the priest comparatively close to
the 2nd edition druid in power and/or versatility (don't forget that
some spheres are more restricted then others in spell number or
usability, so a hard "number of spheres" rule as in CPB is bad).
If, sometime in the course of the game, a new sphere is discovered - I
decide to:
1) Ignore it. or
2) Give Major/Minor access to it to all or some of the PC priests. or
3) Give it to NPCs only either friendly or hostile. (The players find
out the Hard way...)
Of course I listen to the players' suggestions and if I think they
have a point (they just might!) then I agree in my ruling.
We found this system to be workable.
Currently the players use the PH and the ToM.
Have fun!
Alex.