Mercurial Blades - Why?
Helge Moulding
longsword" and "mercurial greatsword." Aside from saying that
the mercury in the blade makes it heavier during a swing, and
that it is more difficult to handle than ordinary exotic
weapons, it gives no reason why such a thing should even
exist. Or did I miss something in my quick perusal?
--
Helge Moulding
mailto:hmou...@excite.com Just another guy
http://hmoulding.cjb.net/ with a weird name
Balthazar the Blue
mercury.
I'm not familiar with "The Sword and the Fist." Does it say this is the
metal mercury? It could be mercurial for some other reason.
"Helge Moulding" <hmou...@excite.com> wrote in message
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Ian R Malcomson
>"The Sword and the Fist" includes the new weapons "mercurial
>longsword" and "mercurial greatsword." Aside from saying that
>the mercury in the blade makes it heavier during a swing, and
>that it is more difficult to handle than ordinary exotic
>weapons, it gives no reason why such a thing should even
>exist. Or did I miss something in my quick perusal?
My feeling is that, like such things as double-bladed swords, and even
sorcerers, the explanation for such things should be part of a DM's
world notes. So, if you want to include the weapon in your campaign,
and you need an explanation for it to exist, invent one.
--
Ian R Malcomson
Erstwhile Domicus bloke
Domicus website: http://www.domicus.demon.co.uk
ProFantasy Freelancer: http://www.profantasy.com
Kevin
> longsword" and "mercurial greatsword." Aside from saying that
> the mercury in the blade makes it heavier during a swing, and
> that it is more difficult to handle than ordinary exotic
> weapons, it gives no reason why such a thing should even
> exist. Or did I miss something in my quick perusal?
Well, if the purpose of a weapon is to do an awful lot of damage, then the
mercurial greatsword is right on the money. IIRC it's 2d8 x3, making it the
most potentially damaging weapon currently in the game.
The mercurial longsword, doing 1d10 x3 (the same a dwarven waraxe) but
costing 400gp, is something no one in their right mind would purchase or
use. Too expensive.
What I don't understand is how the 'exotic greatsword' or fullblade does
1d12, which is actually worse than the 2d6 of a greatsword, and it's exotic.
Oh well. No one's forcing me to use one...
Regards,
Kevin
resi...@my-deja.com
makes sense unless one of your world's pantheons at one point
included Mercury....
In article <3a70a...@corp.newsfeeds.com>,
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Helge Moulding
> Well, if the purpose of a weapon is to do an awful lot of damage,
> then the mercurial greatsword is right on the money. IIRC it's
> 2d8 x3, making it the most potentially damaging weapon currently
> in the game.
Ah. The one place I didn't look: the weapons tables, where damage
and such are detailed. I'll look again. Thanks for the pointer.
Helge Moulding
> I'm not familiar with "The Sword and the Fist." Does it say
> this is the metal mercury?
The book describes both weapons as having a hollow channel in
their blade, in which a quantity of mercury flows. In the
vertical position, the blade is thus a lot lighter than in
the horizontal position. As Kevin points out, the book assigns
greater damage to the mercurial blades, which is why they are
described.
Craig
> Balthazar the Blue wrote,
> > I'm not familiar with "The Sword and the Fist." Does it say
> > this is the metal mercury?
>
> The book describes both weapons as having a hollow channel in
> their blade, in which a quantity of mercury flows. In the
> vertical position, the blade is thus a lot lighter than in
> the horizontal position. As Kevin points out, the book assigns
> greater damage to the mercurial blades, which is why they are
> described.
This looks like a borrowing from Gene Wolfe's series, The Urth Of The New
Sun. At least, the protagonist (a professional but outcast torturer) had a
sword described exactly the same way; he used it for executions. That's the
only place I've ever heard of one before this supplement.
Karen J. Cravens
<94qae4$18a9$1...@si05.rsvl.unisys.com>:
>"The Sword and the Fist" includes the new weapons "mercurial
>longsword" and "mercurial greatsword." Aside from saying that
>the mercury in the blade makes it heavier during a swing, and
>that it is more difficult to handle than ordinary exotic
>weapons, it gives no reason why such a thing should even
>exist. Or did I miss something in my quick perusal?
Blame Gene Wolfe?
--
Karen Cravens (sil...@phoenyx.net)
Phoenyx Internet Roleplaying - http://www.phoenyx.net/
Blackthorne
As a DM, I think "mercurial" weapons are the greatest idea sinced sliced
bread to deal with the greedy munchkin PC. Think of the possibilities:
Long term exposure to mercury-tainted weapons will cause severe brain damage
and ultimately the death of the munchkin. But the thing is, brain damage is
slow so the munchkin probably won't notice the loss of a point of
intelligence every so often, and thus will innevitably degenerate into
chaotic neutralism (insanity) before finally succumbing to the poison.
Hi-ho the munchkin is dead!
Munchkins and powerful weapons being the combination they are, it's like a
curse. Even if the munchkin realized the weapon was harmful it would be too
late and probably require at least a remove curse in order to relinquish,
such is the greed and power lust of the munchkin. But the ingredients for
the remove curse? Well, the curse being greed the only possible way to
break the curse would be to donate all worldly wealth (and other-worldly
wealth too -- we're talking munchkins here) to a temple.
It's a stroke of genius, pure and evil genius, whoever came up with this.
Hat's off to you >:->
:-)
:-)
:-)
Nathan Baker
haft, but when swung, the heavy liquid flows out into the blade."
Sword and Fist, p.73
which means that as the blade is swung, centripetal force would cause
the mercury to slide along its channel toward the tip of the blade,
shifting the center of gravity out to the blade and, in the process,
increasing the speed of the blade and, therefore, the force of impact
when the blow lands...thus the increased damage. I thought the mercurial
great- and longsword were pretty cool because i've actually heard of
this trick before, though had never considered applying it to D&D. My
great-grandfather was a cop, and through my grandmother, I heard his
advice on how a baseball bat could be made a pretty effective home
defense by hollowing it out and adding some lead shot or a sliding lead
sinker...or mercury...this kind of home made weapon was appearantly
fairly common in his day. I have an old aluminum bat I keep in my car
on long road trips and I've considered adding a handful of shot to it
once or twice and probably would have had i had the necessary tools and
it not been illegal in most states.
Steve Eley
>
> This looks like a borrowing from Gene Wolfe's series, The Urth Of The New
> Sun. At least, the protagonist (a professional but outcast torturer) had a
> sword described exactly the same way; he used it for executions. That's the
> only place I've ever heard of one before this supplement.
The sword's name was Terminus Est. Far and away the coolest sword I've ever
seen described in modern fantasy. (Or science fiction, or whatever that series
was.) >8->
Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfe...@sff.net
Steve Eley
>
> Long term exposure to mercury-tainted weapons will cause severe brain damage
> and ultimately the death of the munchkin. But the thing is, brain damage is
> slow so the munchkin probably won't notice the loss of a point of
> intelligence every so often, and thus will innevitably degenerate into
> chaotic neutralism (insanity) before finally succumbing to the poison.
> Hi-ho the munchkin is dead!
Heh. Nice thought, but the mercury is in a channel *inside* the blade. The
risk of mercury poisoning is roughly comparable to a nurse who deals with
thermometers all day.
But now that you mention it, you give me an amusing idea: an assassin killing
someone with the gift of a fine sword, the hilt of which is coated in some
contact poison that will mix with sweat and enter the palms...
Bryan J. Maloney
<3A70D065...@earthlink.net>:
>"when the blade is vertical, the mercury fils an interior bulb in the
>haft, but when swung, the heavy liquid flows out into the blade."
>Sword and Fist, p.73
>which means that as the blade is swung, centripetal force would cause
>the mercury to slide along its channel toward the tip of the blade,
>shifting the center of gravity out to the blade and, in the process,
>increasing the speed of the blade and, therefore, the force of impact
>when the blow lands...thus the increased damage. I thought the mercurial
>great- and longsword were pretty cool because i've actually heard of
And as long as you never have to actually RECOVER from swinging such an
instrument, you'll be fine. Better make that first shot lethal...
>great-grandfather was a cop, and through my grandmother, I heard his
>advice on how a baseball bat could be made a pretty effective home
>defense by hollowing it out and adding some lead shot or a sliding lead
This was used by prison guards as a torture, excuse me, "discipline" device
some decades ago in the USA.
Qit el-Remel
"Helge Moulding" <hmou...@excite.com> wrote:
> "The Sword and the Fist" includes the new weapons "mercurial
> longsword" and "mercurial greatsword." Aside from saying that
> the mercury in the blade makes it heavier during a swing, and
> that it is more difficult to handle than ordinary exotic
> weapons, it gives no reason why such a thing should even
> exist. Or did I miss something in my quick perusal?
The extra weight makes a hit more damaging.
-Qit
--
FFW[sand cat %28felis margarita harrisoni%29]3a/FC3/DD4 A+ C+ D H M# P+
R+ T+++ W Z Sf+ RLAT/U a cdmn++ d- e**>++ f h? iwf+ j+ p*>+ sf+
http://www.furnation.com/Qit_el-Remel/
Qit el-Remel
"Blackthorne" <sir_black...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Long term exposure to mercury-tainted weapons will cause severe brain
> damage and ultimately the death of the munchkin.
Only if the weapon's leaky...
> But the thing is, brain damage is slow so the munchkin probably won't
> notice the loss of a point of intelligence every so often,
Not as if a few points of intelligence scraped off of a munchkin makes
much difference, after all...
> and thus will innevitably degenerate into chaotic neutralism
> (insanity)
Don't munchkins usually play CN (or CE, if they're RL equivalents of the
stereotypical gamer-geek in the third-rate action movie "Ring of Steel")
anyway?
> before finally succumbing to the poison. Hi-ho the munchkin is dead!
> It's a stroke of genius, pure and evil genius, whoever came up with
this.
> Hat's off to you >:->
> :-)
> :-)
> :-)
Amen!
Paul C Duggan
Very cool sword. Terminust est = "here is the line of demarcation".
Gene Wolfe is still quite active writing, with some sequel series to his
Book of the New Sun series. I have a fan page:
http://world.std.com/~pduggan/wolfe.html
There is a gurps New Sun supplement too:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1556344163/pauldugganswolfe
Paul
--
"I am an impure thinker. I am hurt, swayed, shaken, | paul + | +
elated, disillusioned, shocked, comforted, and I | --|--
have to transmit my mental experiences lest I die." | + | +
-- Eugen Rosenstock-Huessy | pdu...@world.std.com
rwi...@my-deja.com
Steve Eley <sfe...@sff.net> wrote:
> Heh. Nice thought, but the mercury is in a channel *inside* the
blade. The
> risk of mercury poisoning is roughly comparable to a nurse who deals
with
> thermometers all day.
"gee, why do all the NPCs keep Sundering my sword?"
epic_sou...@my-deja.com
bj...@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) wrote:
> >great-grandfather was a cop, and through my grandmother, I heard his
> >advice on how a baseball bat could be made a pretty effective home
> >defense by hollowing it out and adding some lead shot or a sliding
lead
>
> This was used by prison guards as a torture, excuse me, "discipline"
> device some decades ago in the USA.
>
some decades ago...i miss those days, when i was that naive....
i actually knew/know a former prison guard, who tells the most
endearing stories of how he used to beat the prisoners in new and
interesting ways, and how they're still able to get away with it, even
with the cameras everywhere. not cool.
Epic
Duane VP
news:3A70D065...@earthlink.net...
> advice on how a baseball bat could be made a pretty effective home
> defense by hollowing it out and adding some lead shot or a sliding lead
> sinker...or mercury...this kind of home made weapon was appearantly
> fairly common in his day. I have an old aluminum bat I keep in my car
> on long road trips and I've considered adding a handful of shot to it
> once or twice and probably would have had i had the necessary tools and
> it not been illegal in most states.
Buy an Asp - a telescoping rod with a wieghted tip. More sting, less
wholesale blunt trauma but probably MUCH easier to handle than a 4 lb.
lead-weighted bat. Legal too. Clint Eastwood's character was using one in
the movie "In the Line of Fire".
--
Duane VanderPol
http://home.earthlink.net/~duanevp
Mr. M.J. Lush
Bryan J. Maloney <bj...@cornell.edu> wrote:
>mas...@earthlink.net (Nathan Baker) wrote in
><3A70D065...@earthlink.net>:
>
>>"when the blade is vertical, the mercury fils an interior bulb in the
>>haft, but when swung, the heavy liquid flows out into the blade."
>>Sword and Fist, p.73
>>which means that as the blade is swung, centripetal force would cause
>>the mercury to slide along its channel toward the tip of the blade,
>>shifting the center of gravity out to the blade and, in the process,
>>increasing the speed of the blade and, therefore, the force of impact
>>when the blow lands...thus the increased damage. I thought the mercurial
>>great- and longsword were pretty cool because i've actually heard of
>
>And as long as you never have to actually RECOVER from swinging such an
>instrument, you'll be fine. Better make that first shot lethal...
My thoughts exactly, is there a penalty for using this
in defence or perhaps a small bonus to an attack made just after a missed
shot. I would be a bugger to use in anything other than a grandstanding
cleave from above mode.
Personally I'm not convinced that you could get a useful
amount of mercury into a sword blade without significantly weakening
the blade... One would have thought that a mercury Axe would be a
better bet as the haft can be made much larger and stronger without
affecting the design of the blade. It would probably fit in better
with axe fighting styles as well...
--
Michael Ban DHMO Now!! <http://www.dhmo.org/>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NPC rights activist | Nameless Abominations are people too.
cra...@hotmail.com
> longsword" and "mercurial greatsword." Aside from saying that
> the mercury in the blade makes it heavier during a swing, and
> that it is more difficult to handle than ordinary exotic
> weapons, it gives no reason why such a thing should even
> exist. Or did I miss something in my quick perusal?
Shifting the center of mass to the tip would improve rotational
inertia...i.e. the sword would be less inclined to stop when
it hit something.
However, several items come to mind:
1) The sword is hollow. Swords, as I understand, can't be
very thick to begin with. Making them hollow enough for
the mercury to quickly reach the tip when swung would imply
a great deal of structural compromise.
2) "Liquid metal embrittlement" is a problem for many metals.
When in contact with liquid metal, another metal (even if
well below its melting point and strength limits) is prone
to get brittle. Essentially, the liquid metal seeps into the
solid metal and weakens the bonds between grains (crystals)
in the solid metal. I think mercury is particularly obnoxious
in causing this.
3) Mercury isn't all THAT dense. Iron and steel are 7.8-8g/cc
(depending on alloying; for reference, water is 1 gram/cubic
centimeter) while mercury is...hmm, alright, it's 13.5g/cc. A
doubling of density vs iron almost. For comparison (and possible
substitution), lead is 11.3, uranium 19.1, gold 19.31, tungsten
19.35, platinum 21.45, and iridium 22.65. If you want a heavy
sword tip, some of those are viable fantasy world substitutes
to mercury.
4) Why bother with the sliding weight? Is it all that important
that the weight rests in the handle when the sword isn't
swinging? I'd figure the sudden weight shift would be a pain
in the ass. Like a ballerina throwing out her arms during
a spin, it would slow the swing down. (Of course, an fixed
weight on the end will make the swing slow to begin with.)
If it's just a comfort thing (having the weight on the tip
all the time might get tiring, but that doesn't stop people
from using axes and polearms), it seems like expensive overkill.
It seems easier to me to put a weight in the tip of the sword,
like platinum (appears often enough in D&D) or gold (ditto).
That creates permanently unbalanced weapon with the cutting
surface configuration of a sword but the physics of an axe,
maul, hammer, or other unbalanced weapon. Interesting.
But sliding mercury? You (probably) weaken the blade and (should)
greatly increase construction cost. I recall reading about mercury
blades somewhere, but they seem a bit silly to me.
--
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
"It turned out to be a monster of a technical problem. We just
kept bashing our heads against the wall until we got tired of
the squishy sound."
Hong Ooi
wrote:
>
>What I don't understand is how the 'exotic greatsword' or fullblade does
>1d12, which is actually worse than the 2d6 of a greatsword, and it's exotic.
>Oh well. No one's forcing me to use one...
My impression is that it's a typo. Given that it's described as an
"ogre's greatsword", I'd guess it's probably meant to be 2d8 (what you
get when you upsize the normal greatsword's 2d6 damage).
--
Hong Ooi | "There are those of us who are able to
hong...@maths.anu.edu.au | conduct actual analysis, rather than just
http://www.zip.com.au/~hong | pose examples."
Sydney, Australia | -- tW
Bryan J. Maloney
>In article <3A70E402...@sff.net>,
> Steve Eley <sfe...@sff.net> wrote:
>
>> Heh. Nice thought, but the mercury is in a channel *inside* the
>blade. The
>> risk of mercury poisoning is roughly comparable to a nurse who deals
>with
>> thermometers all day.
>
>"gee, why do all the NPCs keep Sundering my sword?"
Why, yes, Virginia, a hollow blade would be easier to hack in twain than a
solid one.
Karen J. Cravens
>In article <3A70E402...@sff.net>,
> Steve Eley <sfe...@sff.net> wrote:
>
>> Heh. Nice thought, but the mercury is in a channel *inside* the
>blade. The
>> risk of mercury poisoning is roughly comparable to a nurse who deals
>with
>> thermometers all day.
>
>"gee, why do all the NPCs keep Sundering my sword?"
And mercury itself is actually not all that bad for poisoning, if I
remember correctly... it's the compounds that'll get you. The pure stuff
is difficult to absorb, barring long-term exposure.
Mindless Jargon
better. The sword also broke in one of the books, never to be replaced,
which makes me think Gene knew the limitation of this item. It was made as
an execution tool, not a melee weapon.
Douglas
"Mr. M.J. Lush" <ml...@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:94rgaj$72n$1...@niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk...
Mr. M.J. Lush
Mindless Jargon <mindles...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>"Mr. M.J. Lush" <ml...@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk> wrote in message
>news:94rgaj$72n$1...@niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk...
>
>> Personally I'm not convinced that you could get a useful
>> amount of mercury into a sword blade without significantly weakening
>> the blade... One would have thought that a mercury Axe would be a
>> better bet as the haft can be made much larger and stronger without
>> affecting the design of the blade. It would probably fit in better
>> with axe fighting styles as well...
>>
>'Terminus Est' was established within a Science Fiction novel. Futuristic =
>better. The sword also broke in one of the books, never to be replaced,
>which makes me think Gene knew the limitation of this item. It was made as
>an execution tool, not a melee weapon.
> Douglas
True, but it now rests in a 3rd Ed D&D supplement for sale to
any PC who wants to have to most damaging melee weapon in the book
and lacking any of the disadvantages from the book...
Ah well D&D back on its old form (stir stir)
autolycus
(Mr. M.J. Lush) wrote:
> My thoughts exactly, is there a penalty for using this
> in defence or perhaps a small bonus to an attack made just after a missed
> shot. I would be a bugger to use in anything other than a grandstanding
> cleave from above mode.
Re mercury sword - the original was an executioner's blade (Terminus
Est, see thread prior). So all you needed was one shot...
> Personally I'm not convinced that you could get a useful
> amount of mercury into a sword blade without significantly weakening
> the blade... One would have thought that a mercury Axe would be a
> better bet as the haft can be made much larger and stronger without
> affecting the design of the blade. It would probably fit in better
> with axe fighting styles as well...
Mercury has a density of 13.6 g (0.5 oz) per cc. A heavy (Terminus Est
was a Two-Handed Sword) sword blade 5 feet (about 150 cm) long with a
bore 5 mm (abt .25 in) in diameter or so would allow you to impart
significant extra momentum to the swing without too much unbalancing or
weakness.
regds
autolycus
cra...@hotmail.com
autolycus <auto...@pmail.ntu.edu.sg> wrote:
>
> Mercury has a density of 13.6 g (0.5 oz) per cc. A heavy (Terminus
> Est was a Two-Handed Sword) sword blade 5 feet (about 150 cm) long
> with a bore 5 mm (abt .25 in) in diameter or so would allow you to
> impart significant extra momentum to the swing without too much
> unbalancing or weakness.
5mm bore would only add a few grams, I think. I could get
motivated and calculate volumes...
The Wise and Mighty TI-81 Bellowed forth:
5mm cylinder has a cross-sectional area of (rounding up)
0.2 square centimeters.
Each centimeter of tube filled with mercury at the tip will
only add 2.72 grams at the tip, before subtracting out the
1.56 grams of iron removed to make the hollow tube.
A net gain of 1.16 grams per centimeter of length.
If the last 30cm (1 foot) of the end gets filled during a
swing, you'll add 34.8 grams compared to a normal iron alloy
sword.
A full five foot blade will gain 174 grams.
For the metrically challenged, a pound is 454 grams.
I'm still not sure why mercury would be used when a fixed
gold weight would offer better density. Platinum would be
better yet, though harder to work. Replace the whole tip,
even making it bulging lump for those that can stand the
phallic symbol look.
Mr. M.J. Lush
>(Mr. M.J. Lush) wrote:
>
>> My thoughts exactly, is there a penalty for using this
>> in defence or perhaps a small bonus to an attack made just after a missed
>> shot. I would be a bugger to use in anything other than a grandstanding
>> cleave from above mode.
>
>Re mercury sword - the original was an executioner's blade (Terminus
>Est, see thread prior). So all you needed was one shot...
Yes, but its in D&D land now and will be used for nothing
but melee and the occasional execution.
>> Personally I'm not convinced that you could get a useful
>> amount of mercury into a sword blade without significantly weakening
>> the blade... One would have thought that a mercury Axe would be a
>> better bet as the haft can be made much larger and stronger without
>> affecting the design of the blade. It would probably fit in better
>> with axe fighting styles as well...
>
>Mercury has a density of 13.6 g (0.5 oz) per cc. A heavy (Terminus Est
>was a Two-Handed Sword) sword blade 5 feet (about 150 cm) long with a
>bore 5 mm (abt .25 in) in diameter or so would allow you to impart
>significant extra momentum to the swing without too much unbalancing or
>weakness.
The volume of your tube is (being generous) 0.5 x 0.5 x 150
= 37cm^3 x 13.6 g/cc= 510 g mercury, say its about half full 255g
in a sword that weighs between 4-10Kg, also consider a normal steel
core ~7.8g/cc that would weigh 290g so the main advantage is that
its got a funkey moving weight inside it.
Production issues aside, a great sword is perhaps 1cm thick?
do you really want to surrender half of its thickness to the channel?
Like I said before its probably a great bet for putting in
baseball bats and by extension big Axes but taken out of context
and advertised as another sort of sword is almost as bad as Gygax's
polearm fetish.
Mr. M.J. Lush
>(Mr. M.J. Lush) wrote:
>
>> My thoughts exactly, is there a penalty for using this
>> in defence or perhaps a small bonus to an attack made just after a missed
>> shot. I would be a bugger to use in anything other than a grandstanding
>> cleave from above mode.
>
>Re mercury sword - the original was an executioner's blade (Terminus
>Est, see thread prior). So all you needed was one shot...
Yes, but its in D&D land now and will be used for nothin
but melee... and the occasional execution :-)
>> Personally I'm not convinced that you could get a useful
>> amount of mercury into a sword blade without significantly weakening
>> the blade... One would have thought that a mercury Axe would be a
>> better bet as the haft can be made much larger and stronger without
>> affecting the design of the blade. It would probably fit in better
>> with axe fighting styles as well...
>
>Mercury has a density of 13.6 g (0.5 oz) per cc. A heavy (Terminus Est
>was a Two-Handed Sword) sword blade 5 feet (about 150 cm) long with a
>bore 5 mm (abt .25 in) in diameter or so would allow you to impart
>significant extra momentum to the swing without too much unbalancing or
>weakness.
If there isn't enough mercuary to unbalance the sword
then there probably isn't enough to actually significantlly
alter its damage.
The volume of your tube is (being generous) 0.5 x 0.5 x 150
= 37cm^3 x 13.6 g/cc= 510 g mercury, say its about half full (to
give it somewhere to flow to) thats 255g in a sword that weighs
between 4-10Kg. Also, consider a normal steel core ~7.8g/cc...
would weigh 290g so the main advantage is that its got a funkey
moving weight inside it.
Production issues aside, a great sword is perhaps 1cm thick?
do you really want to surrender half of its thickness to the channel?
Sword breakage is bad for the health!
Like I said before, its probably a great bet for putting in
baseball bats and by extension Axes. This sword taken out of context
and advertised as another sort of sword is almost as bad as Gygax's
polearm fetish.
--
Blake
"Helge Moulding" <hmou...@excite.com> wrote:
> "The Sword and the Fist" includes the new weapons "mercurial
> longsword" and "mercurial greatsword." Aside from saying that
> the mercury in the blade makes it heavier during a swing, and
> that it is more difficult to handle than ordinary exotic
> weapons, it gives no reason why such a thing should even
> exist. Or did I miss something in my quick perusal?
Well, such a weapon was prominently featured in Gene Wolfe's
"Book of the New Sun" tetrology - that's good enough for me. ;)
R. Kelly Brumbelow
I have kept my mouth shut too log on this issue: I have always found it funny
that people think that differently of swords and axes. I used to think about
them differently too, but after 7 years of working a forge and grinding and
polishing blades I know that what most people consider a sword is really just
an axe with a very long blade. Swords chop they don't cut, rapiers slice/ cut
and pierce, as do sabers, katanas ect.. Now in my mind there are axes and
knives/daggers and no more swords ....as for mercurial blade, well to have any
effect they would have to be long blades 1, and 2 it would be difficult to get
enough weight transference to make much of a difference (specific density of
mercury vs specific density of whatever material the blade is forged of. As
others have mentioned what makes a sword more deadly in many cases is its
maneuverability which is greatly derived from balance. Any sword can be
balanced with enough material in the pommel but the heavier the pommel the
more likely you are to shear the blade off at the handle when you encounter
any resistance. Swords have o be springy to absorbe the impact of hitting
objects and I am afraid that the introduction of a hollow core would create
more stress points and lead to immanent fracture .. remember you can use a
bent sword in combat ... hilts ( what's left after the blade shears off) are a
different matter altogether... but that is bringing fact into fantasy. Finally
the weight transference (assuming you could time it perfectly and had enough
mass to make the transfer would throw the attacker way off balance if he
missed... you would have to make numerous adjustments.
Oh and a final note to the Asshole that says that fencing foils aren't
dangerous, please explain that to the family of my fencing partner who 7 years
ago while in a tourney in nw georgia had the tip break off his opponents foil
and the foil slid through his heart and he died. Foils were originally
invented to slip through the rings of chain mail, and to answer the next
question that will pop into mind yes i have studied both kendo and kenjitsu
(both 1st dan), as well as 3 forms of kung-fu ( 2 with weapons training) (blue
belt, brown belt and orange belts respectively) and judo/jujitsu ( high blue -
European, not the wimpy American forms where anyone can get a dan grade).
"Mr. M.J. Lush" wrote:
--
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the Beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed,
the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
R. Kelly Brumbelow
Gold? Platinum ... we use depleted uranium and iridium to make the
mixture that games call adamantium. That's what you call dense :) I don't
have the information in front of me to tell you what the specific gravity
is of either but its better than mercury... btw you wouldn't want a
moving cylinder in the blade .... every time the sword hits there would
be a weakening of the tip and it could conceivably break off the tip also
if the sword was bent in combat it would change the balance completely.
Other than that you are dead on. Of course we use some pretty fancy
compounds in other games including uranium glass along with other blends
to make laen swords .. but that's rolemaster where i have a character who
wears living wooden armour ( no he is not a druid)
cra...@hotmail.com wrote:
Famous last words:
"What happens if i poke this thing with my sword"
"Did you say Kai sensed a demon!? run before he sets off another X10
plasma ball!"
and
remember Khal Thralkhar says "If its got wings , Kill it!"
Michael Scott Brown
news:3A71B373...@flash.net...
> Oh and a final note to the Asshole that says that fencing foils aren't
> dangerous, please explain that to the family of my fencing partner who 7
years
> ago while in a tourney in nw georgia had the tip break off his opponents
foil
> and the foil slid through his heart and he died.
A broken foil becomes sharp - which makes it about as dangerous as any
other knife - which is to say, not very, unless you're poking people with
it, which, of course, one does with a foil, thus making a broken foil a Bad
Thing to have happen in the midst of a bout since breakage tends to happen
mid-poke. This is, of course, a great tragedy - and I don't mean to
belittle such occurences, but *Think* - if your foil *isn't* broken, you
can't hurt anyone with it any more than you can with your finger.
It's *not* something that any reasonable person could call a weapon
(assuming one makes the stunning presumption to define the term in a way
that captures the idea of "something to make killing people easier") - and
it's certainly not something a swordsman would call a weapon. A foil
*hampers* attempts to hurt people, as it is neither pointy, nor massive, nor
rigid - come on, it's more dangerous to your head when used *backwards*.
The part where it makes it *harder* to hurt someone is *WHY* they're used in
the sport of fencing! What kind of weapon makes it *harder* to affect your
target?
Martial arts moved from bokken (safer than swords) to shinai for the
same reason - a shinai doesn't generally break anyone's arm or crack open a
skull when it hits hard. Not a weapon.
Calling a foil a weapon is an insult to swords everywhere, not to
mention an insult to intelligence.
I'm not sure which is the greater sin, myself.
But I encourage you to avoid committing it.
-Michael
cra...@hotmail.com
"R. Kelly Brumbelow" <hun...@flash.net> wrote:
> Mike,
> Gold? Platinum ... we use depleted uranium and iridium to make the
> mixture that games call adamantium. That's what you call dense :) I
don't
> have the information in front of me to tell you what the specific
gravity
> is of either but its better than mercury...
I posted them elsewhere in thread. I wouldn't bother with uranium
(depleted, natural, or enriched - same density as far as a
sword is concerned). Tungsten's (a bit) denser, harder, stiffer,
stronger, and has a much higher melting point - uranium melts
before iron.
Iridium has a 25% lead on uranium's (and tungsten's) density - just
stick with that. Or platinum, which has about a 20% lead on uranium.
> btw you wouldn't want a moving cylinder in the blade .... every
> time the sword hits there would be a weakening of the tip and it
> could conceivably break off the tip
Yeah, I know. I've been trying to figure out what's so
interesting about this sliding mercury-filled sword. Just
put iridium in the tip and leave it there.
> Of course we use some pretty fancy compounds in other games
> including uranium glass along with other blends
> to make laen swords ..
The US military is investigating tungsten glasses for anti-
tank ammunition. Not as dense as metallic tungsten, but more
resistant to environmentalist flaming than uranium and has
many of uranium's desireable characteristics, like a self-
sharpening effect when it plows through thick armor at a mile
per second.
Michael Scott Brown
> The US military is investigating tungsten glasses for anti-
> tank ammunition. Not as dense as metallic tungsten, but more
> resistant to environmentalist flaming than uranium and has
> many of uranium's desireable characteristics, like a self-
> sharpening effect when it plows through thick armor at a mile
> per second.
But how could they stand to give up that self-incindiary aspect and Fun
With Spalling? Going back to simply putting holes in tank armor so as to
effectively use a warhead sounds dull in comparison. :(
(group disclaimer - I am being silly, depleted uranium shells are nasty,
nasty things and probably shouldn't be taken so lightly)
-Michael
R. Kelly Brumbelow
We use depleted uranium so as not to make d&d Gamma world .. now if this
were rolemaster i could get extra radiation criticals :). As for the
Uranium Glass well it is very flexable ( as far a glass goes) and has a
nasty but distinctive yellow colour. This means it can routinely take the
impact of cleaving attacks like metal can. I first discovered the properties
when i was a research asst. on a molecular biology project that used it as
the tips for various cellular probes. We were trying to measure the ph level
inside of living cells in various contitions. Tungston is to hard to work
w/o magical fires or controlled atmospheres ... I do have dwarves who work
in argon atmospheres to weld and forge mithral ( which in our game is
essentially aluminum) and we allow the proccessing of mithral into laen ( we
oxidize the AL to AlO2, which is of course transparent, and incredably tough
- think swords made of gemstones.) What I havent figures out is a way to
legitimately use ceramics and plasma coatings in the game .... then we start
having fun ... :) I also studied materials sciences atthe graduate level ...
people like us are the modern day alchemists :)
cra...@hotmail.com wrote:
--
R. Kelly Brumbelow
I never got around to using a shinai, as we only used bokken and bamboo
armour ( lacquered heavily) but you must admit that w/o the rubber tip a foil is
more dangerous to a person in chain mail that a rapier. Again i point out that
you can slid a foil point through the links in chain mail. where a rapier is
used to slash and cut ... and this is what chain mail is good at protecting. If
people study the evolution of arms and armour you will see what was developed
and why. If i was up against a guy in full plate wielding a great sword I can
guarantee you i could have him down and out in 12 seconds ( 2 rounds) A guy in a
breast plate with a saber. foil , rapier or katana however would take longer,
dependent on how he was trained. I try to play these things accurately. I play a
dwarf in one of the campaigns i am in. He carries leather armour and Chain shirt
( he doesn't have the cash for better yet we are in a poor world) What does he
wear at night ... no armour i tell you, and when he is traveling .. studded
leather. It is only when he KNOWS that there is combat coming that he dons
anything heavier. Anyone ever actually try to wear full plate? I can tell you
this it doesn't weigh 50 lb.. as it states in the PHB.
Michael Scott Brown wrote:
--
R. Scott Rogers
> dangerous, please explain that to the family of my fencing partner who 7 years
> ago while in a tourney in nw georgia had the tip break off his opponents foil
> and the foil slid through his heart and he died.
I don't know whether it was an exaggeration meant to scare us newbies into
using proper equipment at all times, but when I began foil fencing in high
school the instructor said that there are in the neighborhood of a dozen
accidental fencing deaths each year, mainly due to broken tips and
improperly worn safety gear. Given the relatively small number of people who
fence, that's a very high mortality rate.
Scott
--
Some people hate the English. I don't. They're just wankers. We, on the
other hand, are colonized by wankers.
-- Renton, "Trainspotting"
Mindless Jargon
As a GM, I would classify that sucker as Exotic in a heartbeat.
Douglas
"Mr. M.J. Lush" <ml...@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:94s52n$bj2$1...@niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk...
resi...@my-deja.com
weapons. (The heading is something like New Exotic
Weapons, I think.)
In article <L6lc6.159$Uf6....@mencken.net.nih.gov>,
Bryan J. Maloney
(Karen J. Cravens) wrote:
> rwi...@my-deja.com wrote in <94qs9d$qen$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>:
>
> >In article <3A70E402...@sff.net>,
> > Steve Eley <sfe...@sff.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Heh. Nice thought, but the mercury is in a channel *inside* the
> >blade. The
> >> risk of mercury poisoning is roughly comparable to a nurse who deals
> >with
> >> thermometers all day.
> >
> >"gee, why do all the NPCs keep Sundering my sword?"
>
> And mercury itself is actually not all that bad for poisoning, if I
> remember correctly... it's the compounds that'll get you. The pure stuff
> is difficult to absorb, barring long-term exposure.
If one is a eucaroyte, then methylated mercury is far more toxic. If one
is a prokaryote, then metallic mercury is far more toxic. Thus, the
bacteria methylate it. Mercuric salts are pretty much nasty all around.
--
For those in the know, a potrzebie is a necessity.
Bryan J. Maloney
<mi...@newton.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> Calling a foil a weapon is an insult to swords everywhere, not to
> mention an insult to intelligence.
I call my rapier foil a foil, even though it's three pounds in weight and
about four feet long. Y'see, it's not sharp, so it's a foil.
Bryan J. Maloney
<hun...@flash.net> wrote:
> more dangerous to a person in chain mail that a rapier. Again i point out that
> you can slid a foil point through the links in chain mail. where a rapier is
> used to slash and cut ... and this is what chain mail is good at protecting.
Exqueeze me? Baking powder? One diagnostic feature of the rapier is that
one uses it for thrusting more than one uses it for cutting, if one even
cuts at all with it.
> people study the evolution of arms and armour you will see what was developed
> and why. If i was up against a guy in full plate wielding a great sword I can
> guarantee you i could have him down and out in 12 seconds ( 2 rounds) A
guy in
How could you guarantee this?
Bryan J. Maloney
(Mr. M.J. Lush) wrote:
> Production issues aside, a great sword is perhaps 1cm thick?
> do you really want to surrender half of its thickness to the channel?
> Sword breakage is bad for the health!
Many of them weren't even that thick.
R. Kelly Brumbelow
As fo rthe second part first, easy i have done it in several demonstrations
while in europe and here in the states.Osotagari is the easist way to get a fully
armoured person to the ground. In fact most judo and jujitsu maneuvers are very
affective againt people wearing armour.
As for the second part ery example i have come across, with very few exceptions,
of rapier style combat involves more slashing than anything but certainly contains
more thrusting than choping. i guess to put percentages on it i would say it was
60/30/10% but that is prob. reflective of the styles i have been exposed to.
"Bryan J. Maloney" wrote:
--
Michael Scott Brown
news:bjm10-26010...@potato.bti.cornell.edu...
> In article <3A71D0CB...@flash.net>, "R. Kelly Brumbelow"
> <hun...@flash.net> wrote:
>
> > more dangerous to a person in chain mail that a rapier. Again i point
out that
> > you can slid a foil point through the links in chain mail. where a
rapier is
> > used to slash and cut ... and this is what chain mail is good at
protecting.
>
> Exqueeze me? Baking powder? One diagnostic feature of the rapier is that
> one uses it for thrusting more than one uses it for cutting, if one even
> cuts at all with it.
Originally, it was used a lot more like a broadsword (big cuts) before
evolving to primarily thrusting fighting styles once the piercing/lunghing
styles were perfected. I have had the unique and strange pleasure of
training a bit with someone who liked to keep the older style alive
alongside the new.
-Michael
Michael Scott Brown
> Michael,
> I never got around to using a shinai, as we only used bokken and
bamboo
> armour ( lacquered heavily)
And yet, you've done kendo? That's what kendo is practiced with! A
bokken would cream kendo armor.
> but you must admit that w/o the rubber tip a foil is
> more dangerous to a person in chain mail that a rapier.
No. The foil will *break* when put to use against hard targets - it's
too weak, or if it's made flexible enough not-to, then it will simply bend
without going through anything. Chain is not so easily slipped just by a
narrow point; the links overlap and the target *moves*. Piercing attacks
can be more effective than slashing against chainmail, but this is because
they won't skitter off and you can get *force concentration* on the point of
impact, enough to *break* the links, not avoid them. A foil won't offer
this, as it will flop and snap before the armor does. Narrow blades break.
It would take an extraordinary congruence of fate for the user to just
slip through the armor as if it weren't there - this assuming, of course,
that the blade wasn't sundered on the first parry.
Stilettos and the like are handy against mail because they're *short*
and don't suffer from eulerian column instability. Spears can do good work
because their shafts are thick and *strong*.
> Again i point out that
> you can slid a foil point through the links in chain mail. where a rapier
is
> used to slash and cut ...
Ahem. A rapier *also* pierces. It's also strong enough to survive the
attempt, unlike a foil.
The rapier's a relatively light sword, however, and it's not happy
against any serious armor.
> If people study the evolution of arms and armour you will see what was
developed
> and why. If i was up against a guy in full plate wielding a great sword I
can
> guarantee you i could have him down and out in 12 seconds ( 2 rounds)
I think you must be on crack - men holding greatswords *kill people
instantly* as soon as they get within about nine feet of them. I am
exaggerating only slightly. I find it highly amusing that you presume that
the pinnacle of personal melee defense will be nothing against you . . .
-Michael
cra...@hotmail.com
news:94sg8c$5tf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> > The US military is investigating tungsten glasses for anti-
> > tank ammunition. Not as dense as metallic tungsten, but more
> > resistant to environmentalist flaming than uranium and has
> > many of uranium's desireable characteristics, like a self-
> > sharpening effect when it plows through thick armor at a mile
> > per second.
>
> But how could they stand to give up that self-incindiary
> aspect and Fun With Spalling? Going back to simply putting holes
> in tank armor so as to effectively use a warhead sounds dull in
> comparison. :(
When you ram a rod through ceramics and metal at a mile per
second, you're going to get plenty of heat. The projectile's
mass will be heated to thousands of degrees and the armor chunks
blowing through the vehicle will be heated to thousands of
degrees. Fire? You just need something to burn.
>
> (group disclaimer - I am being silly, depleted uranium shells are
> nasty, nasty things and probably shouldn't be taken so lightly)
I think they're overrated from many angles. Environmental,
armor piercing, etc.
cra...@hotmail.com
> We use depleted uranium so as not to make d&d Gamma world ..
The difference between depleted uranium and enriched uranium
is neglible in terms of radiation. All uranium isotopes are
radioactive. Very few are "seriously" radioactive.
Uranium's a real weenie when it comes to radiation. It's just
nifty because it can fission in the presence of neutrons. For
natural decay radiation, you have to watch out for the light
elements.
> now if this were rolemaster i could get extra radiation
> criticals :). As for the Uranium Glass well it is very
> flexable ( as far a glass goes) and has a nasty but distinctive
> yellow colour.
Are you talking about glass (silica) with uranium in it,
or a metallic glass based on uranium?
> This means it can routinely take the impact of cleaving
> attacks like metal can. I first discovered the properties
> when i was a research asst. on a molecular biology project
> that used it as the tips for various cellular probes. We
> were trying to measure the ph level inside of living cells
> in various contitions. Tungston is to hard to work w/o magical
> fires or controlled atmospheres ... I do have dwarves who work
> in argon atmospheres to weld and forge mithral ( which in our game is
> essentially aluminum) and we allow the proccessing of mithral into
> laen ( we oxidize the AL to AlO2
AlO2? You mean Al2O3? Sapphire?
>, which is of course transparent, and incredably tough
> - think swords made of gemstones.)
Hard, strong, but not tough. No ceramics, include alumina,
are really tough.
> What I havent figures out is a way to legitimately use
> ceramics and plasma coatings in the game .... then we start
> having fun ... :) I also studied materials sciences atthe
> graduate level ... people like us are the modern day
> alchemists :)
Hell, yeah! Let's hear it for a tungsten glass zweihander with
a diamond-like carbon coating!
Bryan J. Maloney
Here's the rub:
According to data describing 64 German two-handed swords (provided by S.
Matt Galas--his book should be out by the end of this year), the following
is the case:
Variable Mean SD
weight 3.64 kg 0.66 kg
length 170.75 cm 11.84 cm
blade length 124.39 cm 8.43 cm
blade width 4.52 cm 0.65 cm
Variable Mean SD
weight 8 lb 1 lb 7 oz
length 5' 7 7/32" 4 21/32"
blade length 4' 31/32" 3 10/32"
blade width 1 25/32" 8/32"
Presuming that a blade makes up roughly 55% of the weight of the swords:
Variable Mean SD
blade weight 2.00 kg 0.36 kg
blade weight 4 lb 7 oz 13 oz
Given an approximate SG of steel at 7.8 and a presumption that any proper
hacking sword will have a blade that does not grow significantly narrower
over its length (blades that do grow significantly narrower over their
length are made for thrusting), we can presume that it is essentially a
column of steel. The one simple shape that will maximize thickness at the
spine would be a rhombus. Calculating the thickness of a rhomboidal prism
if one knows the volume, width, and length is trivial, and volume can be
estimated by dividing estimated blade mass by SG and then by length (to
give us the volume of a 1cm high prism, just to make things simple). For
the data I have, this gave the following average results for blade
thickness at the spine:
blade thickness 0.92 cm 0.11 cm
blade thickness 12/32 in 1/32 in
A channel of 5mm diameter would mean that the blade's spine would have
only 2.1mm steel over its "thickest" point.
But wait! You exclaim. Cannot we implement a raised spine design and
concentrate more thickness in the center? Yes we can, however, this
design is for a thrusting sword, not a cutting sword and it will
significantly weaken the edges. But what about fullers? One could
theoretically have a double fuller, but multiple fullers were again a
feature of thrusting swords, not cutting swords, and they grant negligible
structural strength across their length--instead, they impart stiffness
for the same mass in the direction of a thrust.
The mercury sword should be considered what it is: A fantasy that may
scan well in fiction but simply won't work when the hard light of reality
is shined upon it. Use it in your game if it suits you but don't make
wild claims about its real-world usefulness or plausibility.
A mercury-laden sword is the sort of thing crafted by smiths who have
dwarven blood and only then if they use steel made from iron ores mined by
kobolds during the dark of a moon.
epic_sou...@my-deja.com
*shakes head sadly* michael, michael, michael. I think you're forgetting
about a very important case here, when the person in chain mail stands
perfectly still, so the person with a foil can run up to them, aim the foil
just so, and run them through.
> > If people study the evolution of arms and armour you will see what was
> developed
> > and why. If i was up against a guy in full plate wielding a great sword I
> can
> > guarantee you i could have him down and out in 12 seconds ( 2 rounds)
>
> I think you must be on crack - men holding greatswords *kill people
> instantly* as soon as they get within about nine feet of them. I am
> exaggerating only slightly. I find it highly amusing that you presume that
> the pinnacle of personal melee defense will be nothing against you . . .
rapier vs. greatsword? with the guy using the greatsword having plate armor?
It would resemble the scene in Indian Jones when Indy just shot the bad guy,
it's such a mismatch.
Epic
Bryan J. Maloney
<3A71FE04...@flash.net>:
>Bryan,
> As fo rthe second part first, easy i have done it in several
> demonstrations
>while in europe and here in the states.Osotagari is the easist way to
>get a fully armoured person to the ground. In fact most judo and jujitsu
>maneuvers are very affective againt people wearing armour.
Sounds a lot like German Ringeln and Schwertringeln.
> As for the second part ery example i have come across, with very few
> exceptions,
>of rapier style combat involves more slashing than anything but
>certainly contains more thrusting than choping. i guess to put
>percentages on it i would say it was 60/30/10% but that is prob.
>reflective of the styles i have been exposed to.
Reference, or is this all just made by stage combat troupes? What manuals show
this? From what era? You realize that your claim contradicts everything
stated by every expert in the field. Therefore, such a dramatic discovery
would turn the entire discipline on its ear and must be shared with the world.
Bryan J. Maloney
<94t0br$lpi$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>:
> Originally, it was used a lot more like a broadsword (big cuts)
> before
>evolving to primarily thrusting fighting styles once the
>piercing/lunghing styles were perfected. I have had the unique and
References? Which Maestri taught this as rapier and not as spada di lata?
In any case who was your teacher? I may have heard of him.
Bryan J. Maloney
>dangerous, please explain that to the family of my fencing partner who 7
>years ago while in a tourney in nw georgia had the tip break off his
what was the tournament? I am familiar with the deaths of Smirnov and Travis.
I didn't know there was a more recent one.
>opponents foil and the foil slid through his heart and he died. Foils
>were originally invented to slip through the rings of chain mail, and to
Foils were invented as training tools. The very word "foil" refers to the
blade being "foiled". Foils were never made to be actual weapons. Real
weapons were not called foils, they were known as "swords".
Karen J. Cravens
<bjm10-26010...@potato.bti.cornell.edu>:
Um... one more time, in English for the mere mortals? The words look
familiar, but it's been a looooong time since college.
--
Karen Cravens (sil...@phoenyx.net)
Phoenyx Internet Roleplaying - http://www.phoenyx.net/
A'koss
From an article on military history...
Initially, the rapier was used like its medieval predecessor, that is, as a
cutting weapon. The first cogent book on a coherent rapier technique was the
Opera Nova, written in 1536 by Achillio Marozzo de Bologne, which stated
that cuts were to be delivered horizontally, vertically upward or downward,
or obliquely. The thrust was aimed primarily at the face and was often
coupled with a motion that beat one's opponent's attack away. Defense was
achieved by body movement (if a cut was coming, make sure not to be under
it) or with a secondary or "off-hand" device--in Marozzo's case, usually a
buckler shield.
In 1604, Camillo Agrippa wrote a treatise that simplified Marozzo's 12
guardia to four, whose positions suggested that the point now held at least
parity with the edge. The concept of parrying with the rapier had not yet
been systematized, so it should be noted that the term guardia at this time
referred solely to a position from whence an attack might be launched. The
job of fending off a foe's blade fell to the main gauche (left hand) dagger,
a weighted cloak, or a gauntlet, the palm of which was often reinforced with
chain mail.
Around the same time as Agrippa, Giacomo di Grassi was teaching a style that
favored the thrust. The thrust at that time was delivered directly from the
shoulder from a stance that placed the left foot forward. That put the
off-hand weapon (usually a dagger) forward of the rapier, where it could
beat aside or deflect an opponent's blade, thus clearing the way for a
simultaneous attack with the rapier.
Angelo Viggiani then advanced the art by developing the lunge or, as he
termed it, the punta sopramano. That technique led him to teach a stance
that led with the right foot. This side stance, reducing the visible target
area, eventually led to the abandonment of the off-hand weapon.
Vincentio Saviolo was the first master to insist on the total superiority of
the point, which led to the narrowing of the blade. Since the rapier no
longer possessed the weight to cut by percussion, the draw cut was used. In
that technique, the blade was placed against the target and rapidly pulled
back under pressure, creating a slicing action that often involved a fair
length of the overall edge. During that period, it was not uncommon for
blades to exceed 40 inches in length. Held with the palm facing backward,
the pommel was often butted against the wrist to help counterbalance the
weight of the blade.
A'koss!
John Carney
"Helge Moulding" <hmou...@excite.com> wrote:
> "The Sword and the Fist" includes the new weapons "mercurial
> longsword" and "mercurial greatsword." Aside from saying that
> the mercury in the blade makes it heavier during a swing, and
> that it is more difficult to handle than ordinary exotic
> weapons, it gives no reason why such a thing should even
> exist. Or did I miss something in my quick perusal?
As others have pointed out, mercurial swords are clearly inspired by
Gene Wolf's "Urth Of The New Sun" series. In that book, the main
character was an executioner - his "mercurial" greatsword was not
designed as a weapon (though he used it as such), but as a tool of his
trade. The reasoning? Well, IIRC execution, the book goes, is 1 part
slaughter and 9 parts theatre. So an executioner's sword must be
designed to be capable of taking a (unarmed and held) person's head off
in one clean stroke *and* be big and mean-motherish enough to impress
the audience, *but* light enough that an executioner doesn't get a
cramp while he holds it over his head for extended periods, or during
the grandiose sweeps required of the ceremony.
The theory (in the book) was that a large hollow sword containing
mercury would meet all the requirements of ceremony (size vs. weight),
yet would have enough impetus at the point of contact to carry it
through the "client's" neck.
So, the short answer to your question is so people can pretend their
character is whatsisface from "Urth Of The New Sun." But, by that
reasoning you'd have to drop the idea of a mercurial longsword. And
personally, I think that they'd suck big time as melee weapons. The
sliding weight thing would just be a distraction. Not to mention the
fact that being hollow would seriously impair their structural
integrity (quite aside from the possibility one poster raised of the
mercury actually acting to make the blade more brittle.)
The poster who thought that the transfer of weight from haft to tip
would make it swing faster is wrong. The opposite is true, but it
*would* give the tip more impetus.
--
John Carney,
john....@pacific.net.au
Vermilion
> Oh and a final note to the Asshole that says that fencing foils aren't
>dangerous, please explain that to the family of my fencing partner who 7 years
>ago while in a tourney in nw georgia had the tip break off his opponents foil
>and the foil slid through his heart and he died. Foils were originally
>invented to slip through the rings of chain mail, and to answer the next
>question that will pop into mind yes i have studied both kendo and kenjitsu
>(both 1st dan), as well as 3 forms of kung-fu ( 2 with weapons training) (blue
>belt, brown belt and orange belts respectively) and judo/jujitsu ( high blue -
>European, not the wimpy American forms where anyone can get a dan grade).
Jeez - next you're going to be telling us how much you can bench press and
threaten to kick our collective asses behind the gym after school.
I'm particularly not impressed by a 'dan' in kenjutsu, since that's missing
the whole point. The Yagyu school of kenjutsu has been around for over 400
years and they still haven't gotten around around to a silly sport-inspired
ranking system. You didn't even mention what form you study...
John Rudd
(off topic)
Don't go to www.dhmo.org ... they're posers. (I don't know if that page is
the ones who were selling merchandise, but there's one group out there that
stole the idea from the originators, and are selling merchandise without so
much as a thank you or nod to the originators. Another page didn't even
start giving credit until after they were threatened.)
The "real thing" (the people who actually started it) are:
Ignore the others.
Mr. M.J. Lush
Sami Kivela <lha7...@kyamk.fi.invalid> wrote:
>ml...@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Mr. M.J. Lush) wrote in
><94rgaj$72n$1...@niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk>:
>>better bet as the haft can be made much larger and stronger without
>>affecting the design of the blade. It would probably fit in better
>
>very little air space), since constantly changing balance when
>swinging it is going to make the weapon awkward to use.
>
You mean like I said in the bit of my post you deleted?
/begin/
(Re:the sword) It would be a bugger to use in anything other than
a grandstanding cleave from above mode.
/end/
The same applies to the axe.... If you must have a mercury
weapon, mercury axe is easyer to make, less likely to break,
can fit more mercury in and has the dread words Exotic weapon
put in bold font next to it.
As to having a non sliding mercury weapon ... there is
even less point in doing that. The mass gain due to using
mercury is pretty trivial perhaps 200-300g overall and given that
gold and platinum are 41 and 57 % denser why bother with mercury?
I can see one use for the gold/platinum/sliding mercury core
weapons... They would get sold to rich poser warrior nobles who would
show them off in the same way a certain type of golfer shows off his
latest golfing gadget. I think there is some humour value there..
--
Michael
R. Kelly Brumbelow
I am working on my secod day w/ 2 hrs of sleep b/c of a 24 hr gaming
session. Upi are corrct its Al2O3 and I am aware of the inherent problems
with its crystaline strructure causing it to have major stress failures.
The answer is to redude teh crystal size much like you reduce the crystal
size in Steel for toughness. By treating the Aluminium prperly you could
laminate and grow the structure so that the direction fo crystal growth was
varied and there was a tight grain structure. As for the Uranium glass well
i was atlking aboute silica with Uranium impregnated in it. It is a silica
base d glass buy is very flexable. if you were to go along with the
traditional methods of forging many katanas you could do a similar ting
with Uranium glass and Al2O3 that was the very tough and somewhat flexable
Uranium glass takes the shock of impact and the Aluminum oxide edge does
the cutting. And thank you for pointing out my chemical mistake. ALO2
would leve a number of valence shells unstable ... sigh Panda no bakka.
cra...@hotmail.com wrote:
--
R. Kelly Brumbelow
experience with german fighting styles and so I cannot comment on that part. as for
my experience with Rapiers in combat was exclusively in south eastern England in
the wield of kent. Again I can only attribute my knowledge to what I have seen.
Could I be confused and be misremembering? sure. It was a while back and I have
fallen away from the practice of most martial arts. I do still do forge work and I
practice with the weapons I create. beyond that, well its hard to find sparring
partners when you can derive enough force to cut through someone's limbs. from a
wooden sword. ( for those that wonder I am 2m tall have a 17eeee shoe and am
otherwise quite huge. :)) If I state things about my past it is to lead credence to
what i say now and is not meant in any braggery. Take it or leave it ( this is not
nesc. directed at Bryan) My martial arts were studied in the UK under european
teachers. As for armour, well i have seen it and I know how much it weighs .. my
school had several sets that were once actively used ... its amazing what a school
picks up after being around for 650 years. Yes like many other schools in the UK my
school existed 150 years before columbus sailed ...
"Bryan J. Maloney" wrote:
--
Bryan J. Maloney
>Now you are just being melodramatic., I will be honest and admit that i
>have little experience with german fighting styles and so I cannot
>comment on that part. as for my experience with Rapiers in combat was
In the first case, I am only being melodramatic in the cause of knowledge.
I've studied under one expert (Adam Crown) and am in occasional correspondance
with experts in the USA (Ramon Martinez et al), UK (Paul McDonald et al), Italy
(Andrea Lupo-Sinclair), and Germany (S. Matthew Galas), and all of them agree
that the rapier is primarily a thrusting weapon, even if earlier ones did have
usable edges that were used if the tactical situation demanded it. My own
perusal of the extant manuscripts and that of many other amateurs agrees with
this conclusion.
>exclusively in south eastern England in the wield of kent. Again I can
>only attribute my knowledge to what I have seen. Could I be confused and
>be misremembering? sure. It was a while back and I have fallen away from
What you described sounds more like classical sabre.
>teachers. As for armour, well i have seen it and I know how much it
>weighs .. my school had several sets that were once actively used ...
What was your school and is it still extant? Anything with this much tradition
definitely needs to be brought into the loop. (Yes, every once in a while some
researcher or group in some corner of Europe emerges with wonderment at the
fact that the obscure arcana he or they thought him or themselves alone in
actually has attracted quite a following in the past few years).
Here's a tidbit I recently came across: There are a lot of formerly unknown
17th-century Spanish rapiers still around. Where are they? In Russia!
Michael Scott Brown
> > Originally, it was used a lot more like a broadsword (big cuts)
before
> >evolving to primarily thrusting fighting styles once the
> >piercing/lunghing styles were perfected. I have had the unique and
>
> References? Which Maestri taught this as rapier and not as spada di lata?
Hrmm. My references seem to conflict on this a bit, but I should be able
to extract something likely from the mess. We know, of the famous Fencing
Manuals of Doom, that in 1536 at least, Marozzo was favoring a ~balanced
cutting and thrusting style - but he did not discuss the rapier *in
particular*, as I understand it. But, the early rapiers were just coming
into vogue in the early 16th century, so it seems well supported to conclude
that these early rapiers were probably being used in the cut-intensive
styles of the day. By 1553, we have Agrippa's treatise - which I believe
addresses the rapier in particular (among a few other things); he has
recognized that thrusts were more effective and emphasized them over cuts
accordingly. By 1570 we have Meyer's work, and the journey to the dark side
was 'complete', so to speak.
In my opinion, we see a clear transition from cutting style to
almost-all-thrusting over the course of the 16th century.
I don't have *that* much info on this beyond anectode and skimpy
references, so I'm happy to be corrected by greater knowledge.
> In any case who was your teacher? I may have heard of him.
My rapier exposure is weird; as I stumbled into a group dedicated to
as-historically-accurate-as-feasible stage-fighting primarily featuring
renaissance era rapier and dagger styles, run by a guy named Cawelti who
just loves his sword history. Consequently, there was a broad spectrum of
knowledge available with respect to How Things Were Done (and By Whom), and
so it seemed like a neat forum in which to learn something of the various
body-languages of the rapier, which is all I was really after at the time,
since I already had plenty of basic blade instinct from my Japanese
endeavours.
Though the goal of the training was ultimately to take things to the
stage, maestro was very big on grounding his students in the proper martial
basics, as this provides, of course, the neccessary fighting form for
display, and it is rather important to acquire the control to hit exactly
what you're attacking so that you can reliably juuuuussst miss it on
purpose. We lunge for 3 inches short of the belly button. . . which was
ever so . . interesting . . when our partners are bringing it in with a
passata into a botta-longa at full speed.
So, I found just the exposure I was looking for; all the basic training
on how to move, attack, defend, and otherwise control the actual weapon (we
did everything live steel), some a tiempo engagements - and a little
stylistic variety - as opposed to trying to squeeze rapier-applicable
nuggets out of the horrendously "evolved" whippy-dippy techniques found in
modern fencing. Bleah.
Now, unsurprisingly, the logic of "creating a dramatic (but safe) sword
fight" has some fundamentally different presumptions in comparison to
"killing someone"; but the maestro always took great pains to illustrate how
staged choreography departed from practicality and exactly why and where one
alters the technique. "This is how a student of [blank] might manouver when
fighting in this situation" and "but this is how we will modify this idea to
[better sell the exchange to the audience]/[make it safer]/etc.."
The philosophy of 'stage' modifications is very interesting, actually -
to a dedicated choreographer, the duel is a story as important as one with
dialogue and one must create 'drama' with body language . . Many effective
combat techniques are often too subtle and quick for an audience to see and
appreciate - an example of this, if you will, can be found in the film "By
the Sword". It featured a very intense, fast-paced duel at the end, which,
if you're a sword slut, excites you anyway, but when you really stop to
consider the scene artistically, they're stabbing at each other so damnned
fast that as an onlooker it's very hard to follow the fight! It's all
flail-flail-flail-flail *wham* - Oh! He got him! - if you compare this to,
say, the duel in the movie Robin and Marion, or the 3 Musketeers movie with
York and Chamberlain, or ?The Duelists? (Keitel and Carradine) you'll see
marked differences in choreographical philosophies, every swing and parry
and exchange gets it's chance to shine, you can be there *in* the fight with
them.
This sort of thing was one of the reasons that Cawelti claimed to favor
the older rapier styles, they still relied on the cut and thus look a lot
flashier.
-Michael
Michael Scott Brown
> > (group disclaimer - I am being silly, depleted uranium shells are
> > nasty, nasty things and probably shouldn't be taken so lightly)
>
> I think they're overrated from many angles. Environmental,
> armor piercing, etc.
They're dense, they wreck things. What more can you ask for?
<evil grin>
-Michael
cra...@hotmail.com
"R. Kelly Brumbelow" <hun...@flash.net> wrote:
> Sorry Mike,
> I am working on my secod day w/ 2 hrs of sleep b/c of a
> 24 hr gaming session.
That is an adequate excuse for just about anything short of
running over a little old lady in the street. No apologies
necessary.
I'd love to have a 24 hour gaming session again.
R. Kelly Brumbelow
recievd not only martial training but also my GCSE, O, A/s, A and S levels as well
before continuting on to university. The name of the school is Sutton Valance
School it is in Sutton Valance near Maidstone in the Wield of Kent. In its current
incarnation its foundations are laid from William Lamb of the clothworker's guild
est. around 1580. However the history of the school really delves more than 200
yeasrs further back to the original school on the site est in the 1350s for the
children of the family in Sutton Valance Castle and the village rectory. Some of
the foundations and walls still exist for the castle, my G/f of the tiem and i used
to jog the 7 miles to the site and spar there. anyway you can read about the goings
on of the modern ( from 1580) school and its current happenings at www.svs.org.uk
( when i was there the computer lab had 2 trs-80s how times change) Or of course
if you are ever in the area try going there its about 40 km E/SE of london
"Bryan J. Maloney" wrote:
--
john v verkuilen
>hmou...@excite.com (Helge Moulding) wrote in
><94qae4$18a9$1...@si05.rsvl.unisys.com>:
>>"The Sword and the Fist" includes the new weapons "mercurial
>>longsword" and "mercurial greatsword." Aside from saying that
>>the mercury in the blade makes it heavier during a swing, and
>>that it is more difficult to handle than ordinary exotic
>>weapons, it gives no reason why such a thing should even
>>exist. Or did I miss something in my quick perusal?
>Blame Gene Wolfe?
Ah but Gene Wolfe actually explained why Terminus Est had the column of
mercury in it. If you recall, it wasn't a battle weapon (though Severian
did use it as such on occasion), but an executioner's blade. The column of
mercury was there to allow the blade to be held absolutely steady during the
long ceremony during a beheading, since when upright the blades' center of
mass would be close to the wielder's hands, but still give a nasty chop by
altering the center of mass when swung.
Jay
--
J. Verkuilen ja...@uiuc.edu
"It will kill you faster than a bullet." --Claude LaMont
john v verkuilen
>And as long as you never have to actually RECOVER from swinging such an
>instrument, you'll be fine. Better make that first shot lethal...
Not a problem for Severian--he used Terminus Est to decapitate bound
people....
>>great-grandfather was a cop, and through my grandmother, I heard his
>>advice on how a baseball bat could be made a pretty effective home
>>defense by hollowing it out and adding some lead shot or a sliding lead
>This was used by prison guards as a torture, excuse me, "discipline" device
>some decades ago in the USA.
Rubber hose filled with shot as well.
john v verkuilen
>But sliding mercury? You (probably) weaken the blade and (should)
>greatly increase construction cost. I recall reading about mercury
>blades somewhere, but they seem a bit silly to me.
It's yet another stupid-ass weapon, along with the PHB's urgrosh, etc.
Karen J. Cravens
<2oJc6.179$L8....@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>:
>Ah but Gene Wolfe actually explained why Terminus Est had the column of
>mercury in it. If you recall, it wasn't a battle weapon (though
>Severian did use it as such on occasion), but an executioner's blade.
>The column of mercury was there to allow the blade to be held absolutely
>steady during the long ceremony during a beheading, since when upright
>the blades' center of mass would be close to the wielder's hands, but
>still give a nasty chop by altering the center of mass when swung.
Yeah, but I still blame him, on account of he didn't have Severian go
"Geez, this thing isn't so good for everyday use" and carry something else.
What was he *thinking* when he wrote that stuff? He should *know* some
kid's going to go out and try to imitate it, and get hisself killed by an
orc. Wolfe's lawyers should have warned him he was opening himself up for
liability that way.
Hugh Williams
> In article <autolycus-96121...@news.pacific.net.sg>,
> autolycus <auto...@pmail.ntu.edu.sg> wrote:
>
you wrote)
>
> I'm still not sure why mercury would be used when a fixed
> gold weight would offer better density. Platinum would be
> better yet, though harder to work.
Let alone extract from its ore.
> Replace the whole tip,
> even making it bulging lump for those that can stand the
> phallic symbol look.
Been done. 'S called an axe.
Mercury filled weapons were featured in one Rolemaster supplement. They
seemed a bit silly then as well. Haven't read the books everyone else is
talking about.
> --
> Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Right, now to get off topic. You were talking about iridium before, Mr
Miller, and there's been an urban myth (at least among physisists and
engineers who I know) that the US military ordered 2 tonnes of iridium for
some research. When the iridium failed to appear, the researchers made
enquiries, and were told that there wasn't even 2 tonnes of the stuff on the
planet! (and most of what is available is in expensive pen nibs). Do you (or
anyway else) know about this? Seems halfway plausible.
Hugh
Vermilion
>ml...@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Mr. M.J. Lush) wrote in
><94u65b$3s0$1...@niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk>:
>>mercury is pretty trivial perhaps 200-300g overall and given that
>>gold and platinum are 41 and 57 % denser why bother with mercury?
>Because gold and platinum aren't as funky, lacking the inherent
>coolness factor of mercury? Gold and platinum are so last season...
>sheesh, some people just don't get fashion :)
Mmm - I think the point is that mercury is a liquid at normal temperatures and
the appropriate pressure. It's fluidity makes the energy transfer from the
hilt to the tip of the blade a bit smoother. Gold and platinum would have to
be under much higher pressure to liquify at 60 degrees Fahrenheit (no, don't
ask, I'm not computing specific atmospheres tonight). Using gold would
require a small pellet or pellets that run down the chamber when swinging. In
addition to being an uneven transfer of the energy, the pellets' travel
distance would be limited by the achievable diameter of the chamber at the
far end. Since the mercury is fluid, you should be able to funnel a lot more
of its mass towards the actual tip of the blade than with solid metal spheres,
by virtue of no constraints on minimum diameter.
cra...@hotmail.com
tom....@uc.edu (Vermilion) wrote:
> Using gold would require a small pellet or pellets that run
> down the chamber when swinging. In addition to being an uneven
> transfer of the energy, the pellets' travel distance would be
> limited by the achievable diameter of the chamber at the
> far end.
But there's no point to having the stuff move in the first place.
A big, fixed lump at the end will help more than a little dribble
of moving mercury. Platinum (or iridium) at least contributes
some structural strength, unlike a hollow bulb of mercury.
--
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
"It turned out to be a monster of a technical problem. We just
Vermilion
>In article <tom.dunne.1...@uc.edu>,
> tom....@uc.edu (Vermilion) wrote:
>> Using gold would require a small pellet or pellets that run
>> down the chamber when swinging. In addition to being an uneven
>> transfer of the energy, the pellets' travel distance would be
>> limited by the achievable diameter of the chamber at the
>> far end.
>But there's no point to having the stuff move in the first place.
>A big, fixed lump at the end will help more than a little dribble
>of moving mercury. Platinum (or iridium) at least contributes
>some structural strength, unlike a hollow bulb of mercury.
I don't think anyone's arguing that this is a keen idea for crafting swords :)
Obviously, what little you energy stand to gain from that keen mass transfer
isn't worth weaking your blade with a hole through the core (I wonder how
you'd forge that anyway?). I was just pointing out why, if you did want to do
this, you'd do it with mercury and not gold or platinum - there are only a
couple liquid metal options, and mercury is the most dense.
dragon-...@geocities.com
> I don't think anyone's arguing that this is a keen idea for crafting
swords :)
The mercurial blade is quite obviously based on a sword named "Terminus
Est" from Gene Wolfe's Shadow of the Torturer and subsequent novels (a
science fiction series with a strong fantasy feel - very highly
recommended).
Terminus Est was a pretty cool sword. In D&D, it would probably be a
keen mercurial greatsword - Terminus Est was plenty sharp, and was
worth an inestimable amount (no pun intended). And a +x 2d8 19-20/x4
sword, with x being a number probably 3 or higher, is a damn fine
weapon. I struggle to think of one better.
James O'Rance
http://travel.to/Taladas
(Dragonlance 3e conversions)
Bryan J. Maloney
>You may be mistaking me somewhat .. when i say school i mean school as
>in where I recievd not only martial training but also my GCSE, O, A/s, A
>and S levels as well before continuting on to university. The name of
>the school is Sutton Valance School it is in Sutton Valance near
>Maidstone in the Wield of Kent. In its current incarnation its
Thanks. Who was the Maitre d'Armes? Maybe he's still around.
Bryan J. Maloney
> In my opinion, we see a clear transition from cutting style to
>almost-all-thrusting over the course of the 16th century.
Except that the transition you cite is usually considered specifically the
transition from broadsword to rapier, not a transition in rapier methods.
>renaissance era rapier and dagger styles, run by a guy named Cawelti who
Michael Cawelti, Albion Schoole of Defense.
>the older rapier styles, they still relied on the cut and thus look a
>lot flashier.
Those older styles weren't developed for rapier. They were for the weapon that
Silver called the "short sword".
Michael Scott Brown
> > In my opinion, we see a clear transition from cutting style to
> >almost-all-thrusting over the course of the 16th century.
>
> Except that the transition you cite is usually considered specifically the
> transition from broadsword to rapier, not a transition in rapier methods.
Aye, but that transition is hardly sharp - the rapier evolved a great
deal during the 16th century as did the fighting styles used with it.
> >renaissance era rapier and dagger styles, run by a guy named Cawelti who
>
> Michael Cawelti, Albion Schoole of Defense.
Yup! Fun group. I miss 'em. But, even though I've got some time again
I'm going to seek something different; I _don't_ have time to start doing
shows and I'm ready to do something which will hone my fighting instincts
some more, rather than my repertoire of _forms_, if you see what I mean.
> >the older rapier styles, they still relied on the cut and thus look a
> >lot flashier.
>
> Those older styles weren't developed for rapier. They were for the weapon
that
> Silver called the "short sword".
Wasn't Silver the Brit who refused to even acknowledge that rapiers
existed for the longest of time?
However, I'm not arguing that the cut-heavy styles in question were
developed "for" the rapier, but rather that it was not at all uncommon to
use rapiers in those styles because the fighters in question were well
versed in cutting sword techniques; the first explicitly "for the rapier"
systems still drew on this knowledge - 50/50 - Then over the ensuing few
decades, there was the shift to more thrust, and 'exclusively' (almost)
thrusting . .
-Michael
Pajo
It's so stupid it might be genius.
Things I've noticed.
1 Think about the hollow and hence lighter Blade, Use that and then make it
longer. We're going to say the thrusting point isn't of interest offensively
and make a large hollow resevoir there connected by a tube to a matching
resevoir in the pommel which has magnets to give some hold to the mercury,
making it a "spring loaded" 5+ lb weight shift effect. Make it all vacuum
except for the mercury to keep air bubbles from disturbing the transfer. How
big is a 5lb capacity resevoir? 135 cc or a little bigger than a cigarette
pack.
2 We have a longer blade that is lighter quicker which is a good thing.
That sneaky weight hits awful hard but remember to bring the point back up
if you stop swinging to allow the weight to shift back. Get stuck with that
weight at the end of a motionless drooped blade and the speed gain would be
at least three times as bad in reverse. Exotic Weapon proficiency is called
for after all.
Think locked gauntlets because this could be a pain to use or even hang onto
but not more than some other weapons. A Flail has a similarity
3 Everybody try hanging a full 2 liter pop bottle off of the end of a broom
handle then holding the other end - hold it straight out horizontally. Now
hold the pop bottle end. Imagine holding either end of the weighted broom,
trying to start a swing left, no he's headed right.
It's a sword moving at speed - that weight at the end is Vorpalizing.
The better trick is from a stop it's getting an attack off quicker and with
more accuracy because you have blade balance, if you know how to use it.
5. Remember if you are going to do this go big, and 5 lbs might be too light
a weight. Once it's in motion it is better than other big swords because you
use Two-Handers like a flywheel, and this has a nice flywheel effect. Yeah
put a big bulbous end out there so you can have a 25lb resevoir. Remember
it's hollow normally! Make the blade Mithral Crystal(Aluminum Oxide or
Saphire) so that it's lighter still until you get that weight out there.
Remember people it's a fantasy game and it's not as much fun (it's boring in
fact) to say that that won't work as compared to figuring out that yes it
might, at least well enough for a game.
I like it and I will use it in a game just to spite all the non-enthusiasts.
Pajo says direct all flame to pleg...@hfx.eastlink.spammers-not-welcome.ca
you know how it works.
Remember to learn something new and have a little fun every day.
Pajo
> 5. Remember if you are going to do this go big, and 5 lbs might be too
light
> a weight. Once it's in motion it is better than other big swords because
you
> use Two-Handers like a flywheel, and this has a nice flywheel effect. Yeah
> put a big bulbous end out there so you can have a 25lb resevoir. Remember
> it's hollow normally! Make the blade Mithral Crystal(Aluminum Oxide or
> Saphire) so that it's lighter still until you get that weight out there.
> Remember people it's a fantasy game and it's not as much fun (it's boring
in
> fact) to say that that won't work as compared to figuring out that yes it
> might, at least well enough for a game.
>
Thank all of you because this idea is more and more fun as I think of it.
The blade is "translucent" gem mithrals (blue, clear, and yellow saphire
twined in a matrix of pure mithral like a natural stained glass) so that you
can see the liquid metal blood flow of the Living Blade as it dances and
lurches, trying to leap out of the wielders hands at you.
Then the Blade's matrix thickens and congeals into bands of black mithral
(Aluminum Carbide) at its Keen razor toothed edges where it can weep
poisonous liquid metal salts into wounds. A type of poison causing numbness.
DC 16 intitial 2 points dex secondary 3d6 dex permanent damage. Not
treatable with Neutralize Poison after it has done the damage, only
Restorations will work.
I have to make up a bad guy to use it now. : ) Fiend or Dao or Half Fiend
Dao or Half Dao Fiend sounds right or actually all of them and they all
have these type of blades. My players are going to hate that adventure!! I
will leave somebody alive and they have one thing they know how to do, bring
the bodies home and turn the juice back on.
Seggleeth the Gnome Ranger/Druid/Assassin with twin Dragonne Tooth
"Sonic-Ginsu" daggers named Purr and Hiss was probably too tough. They
aren't kidding when they say that even two levels higher makes for a very
tough NPC opponent.
But now the players are higher level.
Mercurial Blades are just fun and perfect for the Terran cult icons at the
heart of an Evil Deep Earth city.
R. Kelly Brumbelow
His name was Harrison SamAmoye' and his is currently back running the
family business in Nigeria last I heard. Seems he is now a chicken farmer ...
which we used to give him tremendous grief about ( being the son of a chicken
farmer, of course it si a 1.67 thousand acre chicken farm with several
million chickens :) ) If you are interested next time i write him i can send
him your e-mail address ( I am actually in better communication w/ his
brother Festus) and perhaps you can correspond.
"Bryan J. Maloney" wrote:
--
Bryan J. Maloney
<hun...@flash.net> wrote:
> Brian,
> His name was Harrison SamAmoye' and his is currently back running the
> family business in Nigeria last I heard. Seems he is now a chicken farmer ...
> which we used to give him tremendous grief about ( being the son of a chicken
> farmer, of course it si a 1.67 thousand acre chicken farm with several
> million chickens :) ) If you are interested next time i write him i can send
> him your e-mail address ( I am actually in better communication w/ his
> brother Festus) and perhaps you can correspond.
No problem with that.
--
For those in the know, a potrzebie is a necessity.
Bryan J. Maloney
<mi...@newton.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> Yup! Fun group. I miss 'em. But, even though I've got some time again
> I'm going to seek something different; I _don't_ have time to start doing
> shows and I'm ready to do something which will hone my fighting instincts
> some more, rather than my repertoire of _forms_, if you see what I mean.
Check out the list at http://www.kmoser.com/classicalfencing.htm#schools
--yes the URL has the dread word "fencing" in it--but the idea that
fencing and heavier swordplay are foreign to each other is a Victorian
invention only enforced more by the SCA. If nobody is in your neck of the
woods, try asking on the associated mailing list.
> Wasn't Silver the Brit who refused to even acknowledge that rapiers
> existed for the longest of time?
He acknowledged them--he also hated them.
> However, I'm not arguing that the cut-heavy styles in question were
> developed "for" the rapier, but rather that it was not at all uncommon to
> use rapiers in those styles because the fighters in question were well
The rapier developed simultaneously with the emphasis upon the thrust.
One problem that has plagued amateur researchers is that "I.G."
mistranslated DiGrassi's manual into English. In English, the manual says
"rapier". The original Italian says "spada"--"sword", and the Italians
I've corresponded with on the matter are of the opinion that DiGrassi was
referring to a weapon much closer to George Silver's beloved military
sword than to what would likely be called a rapier in English.
Michael Scott Brown
> > Yup! Fun group. I miss 'em. But, even though I've got some time
again
> > I'm going to seek something different; I _don't_ have time to start
doing
> > shows and I'm ready to do something which will hone my fighting
instincts
> > some more, rather than my repertoire of _forms_, if you see what I mean.
>
> Check out the list at http://www.kmoser.com/classicalfencing.htm#schools
> --yes the URL has the dread word "fencing" in it--but the idea that
> fencing and heavier swordplay are foreign to each other is a Victorian
> invention only enforced more by the SCA. If nobody is in your neck of the
> woods, try asking on the associated mailing list.
Hazah! Thanks for the lead. March might just get more interesting . . .
(it's either that or - I kid you not - taiko).
> > However, I'm not arguing that the cut-heavy styles in question were
> > developed "for" the rapier, but rather that it was not at all uncommon
to
> > use rapiers in those styles because the fighters in question were well
>
> The rapier developed simultaneously with the emphasis upon the thrust.
> One problem that has plagued amateur researchers is that "I.G."
> mistranslated DiGrassi's manual into English. In English, the manual says
> "rapier". The original Italian says "spada"--"sword", and the Italians
> I've corresponded with on the matter are of the opinion that DiGrassi was
> referring to a weapon much closer to George Silver's beloved military
> sword than to what would likely be called a rapier in English.
Ahh. Death by translation.
I'm happy to modify my mental database on your authority - I've all of a
few paragraphs on the issue from which I based my conclusions.
-Michael
Scott Haley
>"gee, why do all the NPCs keep Sundering my sword?"
>
Considering that mercurial swords cost a lot more than regular blades (as much
as 600 gp) this would be a dirty trick to pull on someone.
--Scott
Robert Baldwin
<mi...@newton.berkeley.edu> wrote:
<snip>
> (group disclaimer - I am being silly, depleted uranium shells are nasty,
>nasty things and probably shouldn't be taken so lightly)
Well, in similar manner let me confirm that those who use DU ammo
don't take tham lightly; they're actually quite heavy (Du being quite
massive).
Now, the D&D application here is to recognize that any weapon having a
High Mass should be restricted to clerics and paladins only.
:-)
--
Saint Baldwin, Definer of the Unholy Darkspawn
-
"Everyone dies someday; the trick is doing it well." [St. B]
-
"Never trust anything that can think for itself if you can't see where it keeps its brain."
Mr. Weasley
-
"Because forgiveness, for one like you, could never be an option".
Achika Masaki, House of Jurai
-
Remove the spam-block to reply
John Rudd
Not at all. If a PC wants to take a non-combat weapon into combat, they
deserve what they get.
I'd personally say the weapon is -4 because of the variable balancing, and
relatively fragile with respect to sundering attacks. An executioner
doesn't ever face sundering, so he doesn't have to deal with that ... and
since he's not in combat, he can probably justify taking 20 (auto-crit
maybe?).
Good weapon for executions, not a good weapon for melee.
R. Kelly Brumbelow
John Rudd wrote:
--
Michael A. Norville
discussing something you're passionate about without also showing off how
obnoxious you can be about it.
I never had much of an interest in swordplay beyond that which appeared in
fiction, certainly not the history behind it. Thanks (and to Bryan too).
Carry on. This is interesting.
autolycus
> The original Italian says "spada"--"sword"
Which is why the sword suit became the spade suit in English...
*oops* off-thread...
autolycus
Michael Scott Brown
> > The original Italian says "spada"--"sword"
>
> Which is why the sword suit became the spade suit in English...
>
> *oops* off-thread...
I always liked the spade suit. You know those old bumper stickers - I
[heart] my cat?
"I [spade] my dog"
"I [club] my wife"
-Michael
Allen Wessels
<mi...@newton.berkeley.edu> wrote:
"I [diamond] a recount"
- Allen
mark edward hardwidge
> "I [diamond] a recount"
All these playing card puns are tarotble.
--
Mark E. Hardwidge
hard...@uiuc.edu
Karl Knechtel
: On Fri, 26 Jan 2001 11:18:59 -0800, "Michael Scott Brown"
: <mi...@newton.berkeley.edu> wrote:
: <snip>
: > (group disclaimer - I am being silly, depleted uranium shells are nasty,
: >nasty things and probably shouldn't be taken so lightly)
: Well, in similar manner let me confirm that those who use DU ammo
: don't take tham lightly; they're actually quite heavy (Du being quite
: massive).
: Now, the D&D application here is to recognize that any weapon having a
: High Mass should be restricted to clerics and paladins only.
: :-)
Of course, if you're using those uranium shells to make the weapon you
could have a Critical Mass :)
Karl Knechtel {:>
da728 at torfree dot net
Bryan J. Maloney
<%Khd6.168$dG3....@sapphire.mtt.net>:
>
>> 5. Remember if you are going to do this go big, and 5 lbs might be too
>light
>> a weight. Once it's in motion it is better than other big swords
>> because
>you
>> use Two-Handers like a flywheel, and this has a nice flywheel effect.
>> Yeah put a big bulbous end out there so you can have a 25lb resevoir.
>> Remember it's hollow normally! Make the blade Mithral Crystal(Aluminum
>> Oxide or Saphire) so that it's lighter still until you get that weight
>> out there. Remember people it's a fantasy game and it's not as much
>> fun (it's boring
>in
>> fact) to say that that won't work as compared to figuring out that yes
>> it might, at least well enough for a game.
>>
>
>Thank all of you because this idea is more and more fun as I think of
>it.
>
>The blade is "translucent" gem mithrals (blue, clear, and yellow saphire
>twined in a matrix of pure mithral like a natural stained glass) so that
>you can see the liquid metal blood flow of the Living Blade as it
>dances and lurches, trying to leap out of the wielders hands at you.
Much better. The weapon is a fantasy idea, anyway, so go all out and don't
worry about claiming that it would work in the real world.
autolycus
hardwidge <hard...@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> wrote:
> Allen Wessels <awes...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > "I [diamond] a recount"
>
> All these playing card puns are tarotble.
Fortunately they only come once a deckade...
Egoslayer1
would be widely adopted...I would run them as follows...(bear in mind
this all fits MY games initiative/critical fumbles, erc...)
A solid weight would be better because you could have a mechanism by
which you could CHOOSE what attack you want the weight to shift on,
unfortunately to make this work the hollow cylinder needs to be in a
vacuum so the weight can move freely (or waste space for air to pass,
thus reducing your available weight), either way it would work, and
would deliver some extra 'punch'. On the downside, if you miss on this
attack where you released the weight, there would be severe recovery
penalties (DEX check maybe?), and even if you hit there would be an
init penalty on the following round/attack while the weight is
repositioned in/near the handle end. The weapon's sturdyness would be
impacted by the hollow cylinder but this could be mitigated by using
fantasy metals which are especially strong (i.e. adamantite, which in
my world is a)very expensive to find, and b) few smiths have the skill
and/or facilities needed to work it), so I would end up at a break
check on a 1 or a 2. Costs for adamantite weapons is x100 the normal
cost of the item. Net weight would be slightly heavier than original
(adamantite is half weight of steel and stronger in my world). Damage
for a 2-handed sword (I play 2E) is normally 1d10/3d6, I would say
2d10/3d10 or something in that neighborhood...the benefits on smaller
weapons would be even less, like say 1d8/1d12 -> 1d12/2d8 for a
longsword, and anything size S or T would have no noticeable effect.
--
Egoslayer1
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