rape (was Re: Spell Components)
Jeff Kesselman
Matt Hurd <m...@WLV.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM> wrote:
>in article 28437 of rec.games.frp.dnd
>drus...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Dru A Smith) writes:
>>
>>In article <CyoG2...@freenet.carleton.ca>,
>>Mark Hills <ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hey, my female elven ranger/cleric of Sune was held captive for 12
>>>days, raped and beaten to a bloody pulp, when she was finally rescued by
>>>the other PCs, she kicked the hell out of the guy with her bare hands then
>>>she cut _something_ off.
>>>--
>> This is the 2nd time you've mentioned this event in so many threads.
>>You make it seem like such a wonderful thing. Yes, rape can be a part
>>of a role-playing game (personally I find it in very bad taste),
>>but do you have to thrill us with this story
>>repeatedly?
>>
>
>it appears that he is emphasizing the fact that she didn't let it depress her
>so much that she didn't do any thing about it after the fact like you see
>happen in so many of these cheesey movies on tv...
>
>rape her/him. Poin had lost all respect for the act of rape and didn't even
He had respect to begin with for this??Only kidding, I see what you are
saying.
I actually think this is an interesting, if a little touchy, subject to
bring up. Roleplay can be as much about learning and understanding, in
mature hands, as it can be abotu having fun. I've learned ALOT about the
social barriers faced by women in our culture through playing a female
charatcer. Its one thing to hear it, another thing to experience it mroe
or less first hand.
That having been said, I think there ARE some dangers here. In imamture
hands one can easily start trivializing a traumatic and very personal
experience. In case anyoen is wondering what I, as a male, know about
this-- the answer is not alot BUT my wife was date-raped in her twenties
and we still live with some of the fall-out day-to-day, and I see how
certain things still frighten her, almost ten years later.
It is also important to realize that there may be people around you
quietly hiding such a taruma if you play in mix-sexed groups, and to be
sensitive to that. The statistics are frightening, something like 3 out
of every 5 women in America will be or have been raped. I know, i didn't
believe the numbers either til I met my wife... with her vouching for me
as a male sensative to teh subject all of a sudden I discovered just how
much so many other women I knew had been hiding.
My sugegstion is, if you are going to try to bring this element into your
game, first do some reading. There are ALOT of good books on the subject
(and you can find good material without having to read stuff by totally
wigged-out gender-haters of either gender.)
Oh, and lastly, I realizize role-play is a personal experience, but take
it from me, after I saw what this did to a loved one, I became MORE
sensatized, not less. I nearly walked out of Ghost because it pissed me
off so much that it contained a totally gratuitous rape-threat (subtly I
admit) purely for the point of titilating the audience. (I'll share
another secret with you... even though I'm sensitized to it, and i hate
it, the animal part of me still responds the way the film-maker intends it
to, which makes me hate the film-maker even more for doing it to me.)
Sorry to be so serious, but if you don't realize this is a serious
subject, you've got some reading to do....
Jeff Kessleman
Steven Sharpe
Personally, as a DM, I think that rape in D&D is to be avoided at all
costs. That may not be realistic for a campaign set in a barbaric, lawless
world, but it *is* a game, and the feelings of the players (especially any
female ones you may have in your group, but this also goes for males
playing female PCs as well) come first.
There was an excellent article in an old Dragon magazine many years back
which delved into this topic.
Steve
Scuminus Dregg
I try not to give any PC something I dont think his or her player can
roleplay through).
I recall an incident in Kult, in which a PC's long-standing enemy--his
cousin, both were Black Spiral Dancers from Werewolf--caught his
girlfriend (a young vampire) under the Atlantic City boardwalk. He left
her tied to a pilon, ripped up and raped, with a taunting note pinned to
her. The player played the rage well enough, but he shortl;y dropped the
character, I privately believe because he couldn't handle interacting
with his PC's girlfriend afterward.
Another occurred in AD&D, to a MALE character who'd just donned a girdle
of masculinity/femininity moments before an orc raiding party burst into
the room. As this was an all-male group and not a very role-playing
intensive one (and this sort of thing happened to the particular PC all
the time) this incident was not taken very seriously. Judge as you will,
that's how it was.
My point, if there is one, is that bad things happen in D&D all the time.
I play mainly in the Forgotten Realms, where there is a goddess of pain
whose priestesses torture as a form of worhip service; a succession of
gods of death and strife--a favorite of mine is actually Bhaal, god of
death and murder, and his sacrifices are *not* pretty. Also, there are
half-orcs: where do they come from?
I don't believe, personally, in screening unpleasantness out of games:
that's where any sort of drama and tragedy originates. I seldom do it
gratuitously, but then I try not to do anything in my games gratuitously.
- Scuminus Dregg
--
"That which does not kill me had better be able to run away damn fast."
Mike Suzio
Well, it *is* a rather large component of warfare (note: I say *is*, look
at Bosnia, it's still going on, with even more sickening twisted racist
*shit* thrown in with it).
So it's a fact - rape happens. My characters recently were captured after
trying to stop hobgoblins from raiding a farm. When they find the female
captives taken in the raid, some of them are going to have been raped.
It's not something I'm throwing in for pure shock value, I just want to
keep a "realistic" view of things, and I know these humanoids are pretty
likely to do something like this.
The players are going to have to confront this, and I do want them to deal
with it. Later developments might make this even more morally
challenging, since they will *never* find one of the captives - she's been
taken by the anti-paladin to be his bride. We'll see what happens when
they defeat the paladin later on and have to deal with the fact that this
woman is pregnant with his child (who is not quite human, because the paladin
isn't either). Looks like we get to stray into the abortion issue, too.
I would most likely never involve a PC directly in a rape. That just cuts
too close, it's too hard to get fully into character with something so
*real* - nor would I want someone to have to get that close!
I would never trivialize rape, but I'm not going to pretend it doesn't
happen in a medieval world.
- Mike
Jeff Kesselman
Matt <ma...@watson.ibm.com> wrote:
>In article <jeffpkCy...@netcom.com>,
>I run it is present, I do try to give a person every chance to avoid it in
>real-time role-play.
All too true, and its not just history, its present day. But as a
strongly misunderstood issue in our culture, and a very personally
traumatic one, we have a certain aobligation to approach it with as much
sensativity as we can.
> >However if they miss all the clues then thats just too bad. >
>I should note that males as well as females can get raped in reality and
>as such that possibility exists in my world as well.
>
Thsi is also certainly true, although the statistics are not nearly as
frightening for males as females.
I have a little trouble with the first statement though... its soudns
just a BIT too much like "she was lookin for it" to me. Maybe thats just
my perception, but if I can perceive it that way, others might also
misunderstand your message.
>
>>
>>It is also important to realize that there may be people around you
>>quietly hiding such a taruma if you play in mix-sexed groups, and to be
>>sensitive to that. The statistics are frightening, something like 3 out
>>of every 5 women in America will be or have been raped. I know, i didn't
>>believe the numbers either til I met my wife... with her vouching for me
>>as a male sensative to teh subject all of a sudden I discovered just how
>>much so many other women I knew had been hiding.
>
>If someone said to me that he/she had such problems I would suggest to them
>not to play the game at all since D & D is game where violent conflict and
>exchange of power occurs all the time.
>
Exchnage of power, if you mean conflict and conflict resolution is one
thing. What we are talkign abotu here though is MUCH more personal then
someone getting pushed on the playground by the local bully. Minor
invasions of privacy we get over pretty fast, major ones can have
long-time traumatic effects.
Also realize that if someone senses this is your attitude, then they
probobly WONT tell you. They don't want to be deprived of the pelasure of
a role-play game just because something devistating once happened to
them. This is a VERY personal thing that, in my experience, women DON'T
tell men abotu until they are SURE the men can truely understand what it
means to them. To be misunderstood just increases the pain-- its better
to suffer in silence (IMO).
Realize though, that if you say "rape victims shouldnt play in my game"
you've just excluded 3 out of 5 american women, and as you pointed out a
lesser but still significant number of men as well.
>>
>>My sugegstion is, if you are going to try to bring this element into your
>>game, first do some reading. There are ALOT of good books on the subject
>>(and you can find good material without having to read stuff by totally
>>wigged-out gender-haters of either gender.)
>
>Better yet, go out and see Accused or whatever that Jodie Foster movie was.
>That really hit home with me the kind of trauma that all this really is.
>
Good suggestion! It ALSO shows why women oftne WONT talk abotu these things.
Jeff Kesselman
Jeff Kesselman
Thomas Miller <tmi...@cimmeria.oit.gatech.edu> wrote:
>
> Cripes.
>
> My answer to this issue is to not have a lot of female PCs or
>NPCs. I know this is probably unrealistic, but at least I don't
>have to ponder these issues.
>
Or, just say yours is a friendlier world where such things DO NOT happen.
(Remember DMIG. If you make it clear to a player that such behavior is
unacceptable, it wont be introduced by them, and theres no reason to
introduce it yourself if you dont want to deal with it.)
Persoanlly I think mixed sex role-play groups are a good thing in
general, and cross-gender role-play can be very enlightening for those
who can handle it. But it IS your world.
(Would that the problems were so easy to fix in real life.)
Jeff Kesselman
Jeff Kesselman
Scuminus Dregg <scum...@panix.com> wrote:
>Rape happens in my games, to PCs and NPCs (though usually the latter, as
>I try not to give any PC something I dont think his or her player can
>roleplay through).
Good policy. :)
>
>I recall an incident in Kult, in which a PC's long-standing enemy--his
>cousin, both were Black Spiral Dancers from Werewolf--caught his
>girlfriend (a young vampire) under the Atlantic City boardwalk. He left
>her tied to a pilon, ripped up and raped, with a taunting note pinned to
>her. The player played the rage well enough, but he shortl;y dropped the
>character, I privately believe because he couldn't handle interacting
>with his PC's girlfriend afterward.
>
Hmm. I hate to say this, because I'm always sad to see someone lose a
charatcer, but if you gave him something to think about, then maybe it
wasn't all bad.... its hard to tell in this case, but there COULD have
been some emotional growth as a result...
Its worth noting that Horor game s are ALWAY going to be tough on
role-players (which is why I personally seldom play them.) Still, most
horror fiction tends to focus on the extra-normal. After-all, we could
play a horror game where evevryone died horrible natural deaths in
car-wrecks, etc, but I don't think I'ld call it fun.
I'm not sayign that you can't ever use such plot devices, but IMO they
should NEVER be gratuitous AND you have to be aware you are treading on
potentially sensitive areas and go VERY carefully.
I've actually role-played a rape-situation myself. The judge had
extensive experience in post-rape counseling (he was an ex-cop, the
post-rape stuff was what burned him out.) It was a Ravenloft game, which
can be bruta. he aplogized before the game an let me know what was
coming, sayign it was unfortunately perfectly logical at thsi point. I
played through it, learned some new things abotu the emotions invovled
(particualrly the sens of helpless-rage and frustration) and after about
4 gaming sessions 'allowed' my character a psychological healing becuase
I couldn't frankly deal with it much longer (this WAS fantasy, so I could
justify a total healing, whih doesnt often happen in real-life.)
>Another occurred in AD&D, to a MALE character who'd just donned a girdle
>of masculinity/femininity moments before an orc raiding party burst into
>the room. As this was an all-male group and not a very role-playing
>intensive one (and this sort of thing happened to the particular PC all
>the time) this incident was not taken very seriously. Judge as you will,
>that's how it was.
>
Well, IMO, VERY IMO, this sounds like the maturity level that probobly
shouldn't be playing with such concepts just yet. I've never seen or
heard of a rape that was 'taken lightly', and I;ve heard a suprising
number of stories (this is what happen, rather suddenly, when a group of
women realizes they can trust you on such emotioanlly tender ground, ALOT
of stuff you never imagiend suddenly emerges from the woodwork..)
>My point, if there is one, is that bad things happen in D&D all the time.
>I play mainly in the Forgotten Realms, where there is a goddess of pain
>whose priestesses torture as a form of worhip service; a succession of
>gods of death and strife--a favorite of mine is actually Bhaal, god of
>death and murder, and his sacrifices are *not* pretty. Also, there are
>half-orcs: where do they come from?
>
True. FR also has an overall positive nature though. There are more
pleasent gods tehn unpleasent ones. What you make of it though, is
ultimately up to you and your group. (And TSR woudl probolby sh-t bricks
to hear you describe the realms that way.... their still smarting over
the "AD&D is satanic" nonsense...) :)
>I don't believe, personally, in screening unpleasantness out of games:
>that's where any sort of drama and tragedy originates.
I agree, actually. Pain is good role-play fodder, to a point. Constant
diet of it, though, is just too unpleasent IMO. Also, you can get alot
more milage out of emotional pain then physical, as its easier to play.
From your first example, though, I assume you already know this.
Still, you wouldn't want to put someone who had recently lost a loved
siblign through such a role-play situation, I assume, it woudl be rather
cruel. Just rememebr that, particularly when dealign with female
players, rape victims are literally all around you.
>I seldom do it
>gratuitously, but then I try not to do anything in my games gratuitously.
>
And ultimately thats what it comes down to, i agree. There's nothing
wrong with a gun, either, in the hands of people who really understand it
and respect its distructive potential.
Jeff kesselman
hammersmith otto j
[buch of stuff not pertaining to my comment deleted..]
>> >However if they miss all the clues then thats just too bad. >
>>I should note that males as well as females can get raped in reality and
>>as such that possibility exists in my world as well.
>
>Thsi is also certainly true, although the statistics are not nearly as
>frightening for males as females.
>
I seem to rember a friend commenting once that the rape rate of
males was actually hight than females. I donno... maybe it's my faulty
memory or just really bad listening skills. When another friend of mine
replied, "WHAT!?!?!?". He simply said, "prision". Anyone else have
--
-Otto.
Matt Hurd
drus...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Dru A Smith) writes:
>
>In article <CyoG2...@freenet.carleton.ca>,
>Mark Hills <ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>>
>> Hey, my female elven ranger/cleric of Sune was held captive for 12
>>days, raped and beaten to a bloody pulp, when she was finally rescued by
>>the other PCs, she kicked the hell out of the guy with her bare hands then
>>she cut _something_ off.
>>--
>> ----------Let's go commandos, it's howling time----------
>> -------------------------------------
>>
> This is the 2nd time you've mentioned this event in so many threads.
>You make it seem like such a wonderful thing. Yes, rape can be a part
>of a role-playing game (personally I find it in very bad taste),
>but do you have to thrill us with this story
>repeatedly?
>
>
it appears that he is emphasizing the fact that she didn't let it depress her
so much that she didn't do any thing about it after the fact like you see
happen in so many of these cheesey movies on tv...
my mage (Poindexter the Prestidigitator) is currently on a
revenge trip. his girl friend's store was raided by hobgoblins and she was
taken prisoner and raped. in stead of just hating the hobgoblins and all
of their kin he *really* hated them. the rest of the party was completely
confused the first time they came upon a group of hobgoblins and Poindexter
polymorphed the leader into a female human so that the other hobgoblins could
rape her/him. Poin had lost all respect for the act of rape and didn't even
care that after the effects of the polymorph the new female could possibly
be a real human female and have none of the hobgoblins thought processies, he
just took happiness that it was once a hob and now it's on the receiving end.
He's even changed a whole group of hobs and turned them loose into an
encampment of orcs!! boy there's nothing like earning the friendship of a
disgusting orc than giving him his own female to play with - even if just
before that it was his servent!!!!!
have fun,
matt h.
---
--
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
matt hurd /\ WARNING
m...@wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com \/
Mark Hills
In a previous article, jac...@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) says:
>Neither of you guys are engaged or married, are you?
And that makes all the difference in the world when it comes to
how we came to you, does it? As a matter of fact, since you asked, no I
am not engaged or married, but I am currently in a relationship and it
is quite _fine_ thank you. Maybe a little real life in fantasy disturbs
you. Stuff your attitude, I have no time for it.
Me
Let me give an example of what I mean by miss the clues. Lets say a bunch of
orcs captures a female PC. They tie her hands behind her back and they flump
her over their shoulders her feet are tied as well. They bring her to
their lair and proceed to untie her to tie her to a post or something like
that. Now in the process of untying and tying her she has an opportunity
to escape.
In fact she has an an opportunity to escape when they are tying her hands.
If she is a spell caster and she has spells with verbal only components
she has another opportunity to escape.
She has an opportunity to escape by not being caught.
She also has her comrades.
In addition if she were truly in a situation where the only logical
conclusion would be that she would be raped and she truly had no why out
I as DM would introduce a random event to help her to escape.
However if she does not take advantage of that random event, there is
nothing I can do about it.
>>>
>>>It is also important to realize that there may be people around you
>>>quietly hiding such a taruma if you play in mix-sexed groups, and to be
>>>sensitive to that. The statistics are frightening, something like 3 out
>>>of every 5 women in America will be or have been raped. I know, i didn't
>>>believe the numbers either til I met my wife... with her vouching for me
>>>as a male sensative to teh subject all of a sudden I discovered just how
>>>much so many other women I knew had been hiding.
>>
>>If someone said to me that he/she had such problems I would suggest to them
>>not to play the game at all since D & D is game where violent conflict and
>>exchange of power occurs all the time.
>>
>
>Exchnage of power, if you mean conflict and conflict resolution is one
>thing. What we are talkign abotu here though is MUCH more personal then
>someone getting pushed on the playground by the local bully. Minor
>invasions of privacy we get over pretty fast, major ones can have
>long-time traumatic effects.
>
>Also realize that if someone senses this is your attitude, then they
>probobly WONT tell you. They don't want to be deprived of the pelasure of
>a role-play game just because something devistating once happened to
>them. This is a VERY personal thing that, in my experience, women DON'T
>tell men abotu until they are SURE the men can truely understand what it
>means to them. To be misunderstood just increases the pain-- its better
>to suffer in silence (IMO).
I can't help that. I am not going to change the nature of my game because
of things that I can't predict.
>
>Realize though, that if you say "rape victims shouldnt play in my game"
>you've just excluded 3 out of 5 american women, and as you pointed out a
>lesser but still significant number of men as well.
No I did not say that. However someone who can not deal with roleplaying
because of deeper personal conflicts should not play ADnD.
--
Matthew S. Harelick |Disclaimer
Real-Time Computing Laboratory |Comments are not the official statements
New Jersey Institute of Technology |From the Real-Time Computing Laboratory
msh...@hertz.njit.edu http://hertz.njit.edu/~msh9848
Brian Trosko
: BUT it is true that you can prove almost anything if you set your
: parameters properly and then apply statistics. The important issue, IMO,
: is that 3 out of 5 women you sit down with at the gaming table are likely
: to have been victims. Thats really why i brought the number up.
Jeff, if it's not too much to ask, could you provide a cite for that '3
out of 5' statistic? As you yourself admit, if you set out to prove
something with statistics, you are likely to do so. When I see that 3
out of 5 figure, I am reminded of a 'study' back in the late 80s that
claimed 10% of all children were abducted at one point or another; this
study was taken seriously when it was released, but then was thoroughly
discredited. So, I hope you'll forgive if I ask for a cite on that one.
Dru A Smith
Very mature. Since you're the one who originally got me (and others)
started on this thread, it's not too difficult to see how your immaturity
can so easily let rapes occur in your game without the sympathy and
horror they deserve.
Dru
the_night_ranger
>In article <CyoG2...@freenet.carleton.ca>,
>>Mark Hills <ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
Hey, my female elven ranger/cleric of Sune was held captive for 12
>>>days, raped and beaten to a bloody pulp, when she was finally rescued by
>>>the other PCs, she kicked the hell out of the guy with her bare hands then
>>>she cut _something_ off.
Perhaps I am being old fashioned, but our product i.e. AD&D is designed as a game,
and as such it it is produced with the aim of bringing happiness and light to our
lives. Escapism if you want to think of it that way. In this connection, whilst I
have no problems with individual Dming styles I think such tender, and quite frankly
disgusting, topics, such as rape, do not really have a place in it.
Yes I know it happened
Yes I know it makes the game historically accurate.
No I don't believe it makes the game any better to play.
And at any rate I really don't want to think about it.
Perhaps subjects such as rape would be better brought up in games the likes of Dark
Conspiracy or perhaps SLA, then it could add perhaps to part of the atmosphere (note
this does not by any stretch of the imagination imply that I condone the address of
such topics in games).
I feel it is important that such topics should be dealt with properly and not, please
pardon me for saying this, the silly idea of some guy playing a female character,
whose other male chums think that's a good plan. To my mind this sort of behaviour
trivialises what is otherwise a very very serious subject.
I apologise now for any offence caused to the individuals in question and for boring
the poor individuals who are probably reading this.
On a final note, one might add that this testosterone induced form of playing is one
of the main things that is going to drive away women from what is otherwise an
extremely sociable and friendly hobby.
Thankyou
The Night Ranger
Me
>victims. I won't make any comments on frequency as I don't knwo that
>much abotu the prision situation, other then it happens. Bu there are
>ALOt more women wlakign the streets then men in prision. Given the 3 otu
>of 5 numebr (which has held out in my own experiences, wehn womeone
>actually get talking abotu it around me, which is not that often, even
>given my 'pass' a a senstiive male from my victimized wife), i find it
>hard to believe that enough men are IN prision to even come close to thsi
>figure.
This is going way off the topic of D & D but I really don't believe that
3 out 5 figure you are exploiting in these threads.
Jeff Kesselman
Well, first I think you have to talk about frequency vs. number of
victims. I won't make any comments on frequency as I don't knwo that
much abotu the prision situation, other then it happens. Bu there are
ALOt more women wlakign the streets then men in prision. Given the 3 otu
of 5 numebr (which has held out in my own experiences, wehn womeone
actually get talking abotu it around me, which is not that often, even
given my 'pass' a a senstiive male from my victimized wife), i find it
hard to believe that enough men are IN prision to even come close to thsi
figure.
BUT it is true that you can prove almost anything if you set your
parameters properly and then apply statistics. The important issue, IMO,
is that 3 out of 5 women you sit down with at the gaming table are likely
to have been victims. Thats really why i brought the number up.
Jeff kesselman
Thomas Miller
Cripes.
My answer to this issue is to not have a lot of female PCs or
NPCs. I know this is probably unrealistic, but at least I don't
have to ponder these issues.
Hmm, now I've got a story idea for _The Adventurers_. See what
you all did? :)
--
Thomas Miller tmi...@cimmeria.oit.gatech.edu
Systems Support Specialist II Georgia Tech Network Services
Anything is possible...except skiing through a revolving door.
Jeff Hildebrand
a woman who had been playing for a long time. On one of those nights when
neither of us had a game to get involved in, we ended up watching a game
where a younger DM (he was 16 at the time) had a rape occur. It kicked off
a long discussion lasting late into the night, but it was an eye opener
for me (I was only 18 at the time). Well, two years later I decided to
start DM'ing. I made it known that there was an all powerful god in the
background who torched characters who tried to rape or kill children.
No save.
Nobody complained, and all of the women who have had characters in my
game have told me they like the fantasy tone of the game. Even the few
evil characters I had for a while found no problem roll playing without
these acts. It's all in the DM what the tone of his game is.
Matt
When I first started DMing when I was say about 14 or 15 years old I would
have monsters or bandits whatever simply rape a female character without
much ado or anything.
However as an older and much more mature DM I leave it as an open possibility
and give a female character as much of a chance to avoid it as possible.
Such as perhaps they made a mistake in the process of preparing her for
the rape. Another thing I do is it may be in the character's history that
she was raped when her village was raided, etc.
Rape is a fact of life in history and in conflicts. While in games
I run it is present, I do try to give a person every chance to avoid it in
real-time role-play.
However if they miss all the clues then thats just too bad.
I should note that males as well as females can get raped in reality and
as such that possibility exists in my world as well.
>
>It is also important to realize that there may be people around you
>quietly hiding such a taruma if you play in mix-sexed groups, and to be
>sensitive to that. The statistics are frightening, something like 3 out
>of every 5 women in America will be or have been raped. I know, i didn't
>believe the numbers either til I met my wife... with her vouching for me
>as a male sensative to teh subject all of a sudden I discovered just how
>much so many other women I knew had been hiding.
If someone said to me that he/she had such problems I would suggest to them
not to play the game at all since D & D is game where violent conflict and
exchange of power occurs all the time.
>
>My sugegstion is, if you are going to try to bring this element into your
>game, first do some reading. There are ALOT of good books on the subject
>(and you can find good material without having to read stuff by totally
>wigged-out gender-haters of either gender.)
Better yet, go out and see Accused or whatever that Jodie Foster movie was.
That really hit home with me the kind of trauma that all this really is.
Matthew Harelick
--
Matthew S. Harelick
IBM, Watson Research Division
914-784-7079
c.t. pierson
Me <msh...@hertz.njit.edu> wrote:
>They only deserve the horror and sympathy you are discussing if
>it happens to PC's. As a DM one has to realize that lots of
>rapes are going to occur all over a world .
Nonsense. _Any_ rape which actually _appears_ in the game is likely to be
horrible. It isn't any less awful if it happens to an NPC, especially if
the NPC is someone a PC knows/loves.
>Another point, its just a game, roleplaying is not real life. While
>rape is not a nice thing its not as horrible as having a demon
>invade your soul or having Cthulu eat your mother for lunch. All
>of which can happen in a game.
Well, that's a point--although demonic possession would probably evoke
the same feelings of violation and helplessness as would rape. Possibly
more acute.
At any rate, I have never used rape in my campaign, but I would not be
averse to doing so, provided it isn't _gratuitous_ and the players won't
be made excruciatingly uncomfortable by its inclusion. The example that's
been given elsewhere on this thread of the hobgoblins' captives is a good
one--I, too, would include some rape victims among the women (and
possibly the men). Hobgoblins are _evil_, horrible creatures, and they're
also power freaks, so it stands to reason that rape might even be a major
aspect of hobgoblin "culture" (which would make for an unthinkably
godawful society--picture modern-day Bosnia full-time.
In addition, the inclusion of rape victims is a good role-playing
opportunity. Provided the DM is mature and sensitive enough to treat the
subject as the serious topic it is, and not some goofy joke (as many
players, kids and adults alike, are still wont to do), it can be a very
harrowing, eye-opening, educational experience for the players.
One thing AD&D has ignored (and I understand why) is guidelines on how to
deal with the aftereffects of the nasty things that go on. While the
Angry Mothers League would (perhaps justifiably) get ornery again if
rape--or sex in any form--was covered as part of the AD&D world, it
_does_ have a place...if it is handled sensitively and very carefully.
--
* Chris Pierson Grad J-School Class of '95 (with any luck)*
* Defanged destroyer limps into the bay/Down at the beach/it's attracting *
* quite a crowd/As kids wade through the blood/out to it to play *
* --The Tragically Hip, "Scared" *
Jeff Kesselman
This is way off topic, you are right, except how it pertains to how we
treat our players.
I'm not sure if I expect, ro even ask you, to believe the exact number, at
least not yet. Suffice it to say I never really believed it either, until
I married a survivor, and other women started opening up and talking about
it around me. (For what its worth, I DO wonder why you choose the word
'exploiting'. This seems an odd, if ironicly apporpriate in some ways,
word to use.)
I really don't know if I expect anyone else, who HASN'T been in the
position to have the women around him open up about this subject, to
really believe the number. Its a little too horrifying to believe, until
you are confronted with it pesonally.
The important thing to understand is that it is an ALL too common trauma in
the life of American women, and one that people seldom feel comfortable to
talk about, so it behooves us all to be sensative to the fact that it IS
out there, in scary numbers.
Jeff Kesselman
Jeff Kesselman
>>In article <Cyqwv...@hawnews.watson.ibm.com>,
>>Matt <ma...@watson.ibm.com> wrote:
>>>In article <jeffpkCy...@netcom.com>,
>>>Jeff Kesselman <jef...@netcom.com> wrote:
>>>>In article <CypI5...@wlbr.iipo.gtegsc.com>,
>>>>Matt Hurd <m...@WLV.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM> wrote:
>>>>
>
>
>In addition if she were truly in a situation where the only logical
>conclusion would be that she would be raped and she truly had no why out
>I as DM would introduce a random event to help her to escape.
>
>However if she does not take advantage of that random event, there is
>nothing I can do about it.
>
Okay, I see your point and I think you are being 100% responsible,
personally. If the threat is going to be used as a tension element, and
if its not over-worked I think it can be, there has to be at-least SOME
percieved risk.
As I said earlier, I think its a subject worth dealing with , in groups
amture enoguh to handle it in an adult fashion. I'm not even as sureas
you are that there HAS to be a way out.. but if there isn't, then the
judge owes it to the players at ground zero to discuss the potential plot
direction FIRST, at least as far as this occruance goes, and then to
'monitor' his groups emtional-reaction state in a sensitive manner.
>
>>>>
>>
>>Exchnage of power, if you mean conflict and conflict resolution is one
>>thing. What we are talkign abotu here though is MUCH more personal then
>>someone getting pushed on the playground by the local bully. Minor
>>invasions of privacy we get over pretty fast, major ones can have
>>long-time traumatic effects.
>>
>>Also realize that if someone senses this is your attitude, then they
>>probobly WONT tell you. They don't want to be deprived of the pelasure of
>>a role-play game just because something devistating once happened to
>>them. This is a VERY personal thing that, in my experience, women DON'T
>>tell men abotu until they are SURE the men can truely understand what it
>>means to them. To be misunderstood just increases the pain-- its better
>>to suffer in silence (IMO).
>
>I can't help that. I am not going to change the nature of my game because
>of things that I can't predict.
>
I'm not asking you to. What I'm sugegsting is that, in this one case,
you approach the subject VERY carefully, and with extra-sensitivity. You
soudn like a good enough judge that, if some other element in your game
prove4d to be causing player strife, you'ld do somethign about it. The
point is jsut to be aware going into these situations that there is alot
more potential for player strife, particualrly withf emal players. On
teh other hand, as I've said before, dealign with such subjects by mature
players can actually be a growing experience. Large risks/large rewards,
just be aware of both (it sounds like you already are.)
Getting back to a somewhat dropped point on this point though, immature or
insensitive people 'playing' with thsi concept can potentially cause more
harm then good, by reinforcing very bad, juvenile or insensitive responses
(that you see all too often in this country, even in adults.)
Know your group, and what they can handle. (ALL IMO.)
>>
>>Realize though, that if you say "rape victims shouldnt play in my game"
>>you've just excluded 3 out of 5 american women, and as you pointed out a
>>lesser but still significant number of men as well.
>
>No I did not say that. However someone who can not deal with roleplaying
>because of deeper personal conflicts should not play ADnD.
>
Okay, well, i hope I've made myself clearer if thats what you thought I
was saying. Someone can be perfectly healthy mentally and be
able to deal with and enjoy conflict and resolutio nsituations, but have
aproblem with thsi particular area. We all have things we'ld ratehr not
re-experince from our lives, I think. Thsi is just one thats VERY
common, unfortunately, so be aware of that annd act accordingly.
Jeff Kesselman
Me
>In article <1994Nov6.1...@njitgw.njit.edu>,
>Me <msh...@hertz.njit.edu> wrote:
>>They only deserve the horror and sympathy you are discussing if
>>it happens to PC's. As a DM one has to realize that lots of
>>rapes are going to occur all over a world .
>
>Nonsense. _Any_ rape which actually _appears_ in the game is likely to be
>horrible. It isn't any less awful if it happens to an NPC, especially if
>the NPC is someone a PC knows/loves.
Thats not the scale I am talking about.
The DM has to deal with things on a world scale. Sure things that
are directly connected to the PC's or even to NPC's deserve to
be treated with horror. But if the hobgoblins march in , take over
a town and capture and rape all the females, you can't treat each
act against a generic 0-level human with equal sensitivity.
Matthew Hickey
experiences in the attempt to show how rape can be handled... and mis-
handled in a campaign.
First I'll start with the first time I came across rape in a
campaign. Oddly enough, it was me who brought it in, during character
creation. The game in question was Warhammer Fantasy Role-Play going
through the epic _Power Behind the Throne_ saga. The character was a young
human ranger named Kirstan. Not only had she been raped (though, true to
the style and atmosphere of the world, it wasn't expressed in these terms),
but raped by a family member. She had conceived a child from this
experience, a child which was given away by her father. She fled her family
for this reason, and became driven to find her lost child. She later became
a pivotal figure in the campaign's history, becoming a messiah-like figure
in the world.
The second time occurred in the same game, this time I will use this
as an example of misuse. Two characters (an ugly high elf sorceror, and a
dark elf assassin) raped a noblewoman under the influence of a Sleep spell
cast by the wizard in a attempt to calm the young lady down (we had been
attacked by some gory undead, and her entourage was all dead around her).
My character was not present, though I was in the room when they jokingly
did this action (the wizard's player wasn't there at the time, he was being
played by the dark elf's player). I was shocked... no, shocked isn't a
proper way to describe how I felt. I knew that yelling at the player was no
use (I'll admit it now that the other players and the GM were all rather
immature in their opinions of women, having been inspired by Andrew Dice
Clay at the time), so I planned my revenge. Soon after this adventure, the
witch elf was identified as such and burned alive as a Chaos worshipper.
The other elf, who had become so corrupt as to become a necromancer) ... let'
s just say that the character died badly, and without any decency or honour.
Both these times were during my years as a player. Since I've
returned to role-playing, I have attempted to run as many games as I play
in. Currently I run a chronicle set on Mystarra (uncorrupted by the last
four years of T$R), and play in a World of Darkness cross-over. In
Mystarra, I've depowered the world and injected it with a very heavy dose of
realism. Rape is one of many unpleasant but present things brought to the
setting. One of the NPCs is the result of a raped Traladar slave by Ludwig
von Hendriks, the Black Eagle of Fort Doom. She is unaware of this fact,
and will undergo a great deal of psychological pain when this fact becomes
open. The player's have also delt with rape in other ways. One is a
bitter, twisted indivdual (a child of rape as well) who has openly
comtemplated rape in-character. This player is one of the most emotionally
well-balanced individuals I have ever met, and would rather die than commit
the act in real life.
As for the other game, in the near future of the game (inwhich
a number of us play ourselves, including both myself and my girlfriend), I
will be stuck with a true challenge. Playing my youngest sister (
currently in RL 5yrs old, grown up later in the campaign) and undergoing a
rape. I know this will be hard, and that my ST (the player I discussed
above) will hold nothing back.
In both games we use a 'safeword' system. This allows us to delve
as deep as we are willing to go. We (myself and the players of both games)
believe in the use of the game to explore ourselves, in a manner described
by Mark Rein*Hagen in Wraith:The Oblivion. Most of you do not do this, and
many (like John Kesselman) have advocated not including rape in the
campaign. My only advice is use only what the players feel comfortable
with, but if used, do it realistically (ex. I wouldn't allow the psychic
healing Mr. Kesselman described -- maybe using a forget spell or psychic
surgury, but the emotional damage would remain, only the memory of the event
can be erased) and with as much maturity as possible.
I've changed the subject of this thread to try and expand on the
topic, transforming the discussion on rape into the larger framework of
mature content in the game - specifically sex and sexuality. Feel free to
respond about this.
Nightshade
Prophet of the Anti-T$R
Warmaster of the Revolutionary Army of Mystarra
Leader of the Great Reformation
Jeff Kesselman
>rape is not a nice thing its not as horrible as having a demon
>invade your soul or having Cthulu eat your mother for lunch. All
>of which can happen in a game.
>
Actually, this is precisely the point-- but not the oen you are making I
think. We can afford to be cavalier abouy Cthulu eating one's mother because
it CAN'T happen in real life. You are neither reinforcing existing
attitudes nor educating in any sense.
In addition, noone in your game circle is likely to have any particular
Cthuloid traumas (if they do, they need REAL help!)
When dealing with rape, you are dealing not just with a real horror, but
a frighteningly (pardon the pun) common one. For these reasons, if
dealt with at all, it shoudl be dealt so with the sensitvity and respect
the subject really deserves.
Oh, BTW. I double checked the 3 out of 5 figure. Thats the figure my
wife was given in the police-sponsored survivor-recovery program.
Jeff Kesselman
Jeff Kesselman
>too close, it's too hard to get fully into character with something so
>*real* - nor would I want someone to have to get that close!
>
IMO (what else is new?)
In the rare, proper situation, it can actually be a learnign expereince
for a player, but very few groups are both mature and comfortable with
each other enough to deal with this, so i basicly agree with your POV.
>I would never trivialize rape, but I'm not going to pretend it doesn't
>happen in a medieval world.
>
Thats reasonable as long as your players can deal without without
trivializing it, and can handle the plot elements. As I've said before,
the important thing to remember is its not just a medevil horror. If
you play in a mmixed sex group, you are quite likely to have players with
personal experiences...
JK
Me
They only deserve the horror and sympathy you are discussing if
it happens to PC's. As a DM one has to realize that lots of
rapes are going to occur all over a world .
Another point, its just a game, roleplaying is not real life. While
rape is not a nice thing its not as horrible as having a demon
invade your soul or having Cthulu eat your mother for lunch. All
of which can happen in a game.
--
Louis E. Kahn
brought up. I personally as a DM and as a player would not really want
to deal with rape in more than a passing manner. I think that it is just
too traumatic to deal with in a game. I play *DnD to get away from the
real world and I admit that I may be a munchkin or monty haulish, but as
both a DM and a player I just want to have fun. The most I'd ever get
into rape was MAYBE the character origin for a half/race PC- then if and
only if it was the player's idea nad I thoutgh it would not bother any1
else. I know that I sacrifice realism by not having rape in my *dnd
worlds- but I really just don't think that I want to deal woith such a
heavy issue when I am trying to play a game. I hope that it's exclkusion
does not buy into the myth that rapes do not occur on a large scale to
women in our society, but I just would not want to deal with this issue
in my games.
grreat discussion tho.
--
******************************************************************************
________ ___.-.___ -FIRE! sir...@netcom.com
\______|)\_______/ ---==* bras...@spring.com
_||___//`-' ---==* Louis_...@bmug.org
'-._____](
******************************************************************************
Paul Culotta
In article <39m0hu$8...@st-james.comp.vuw.ac.nz>, mdl...@lhn.gns.cri.nz
writes:
> >The DM's primary job is to manage the world in a fair and consistent
manner.
> >Therefore if it was logical and consistent for a PC to be raped it is
not
> >the DM's fault that it happened.
>
>
> Disagree entirely. The GMs job primary job is providing an enjoyable
night
> for the party. Well getting killed isnt fun but sometimes it happens
and
> that risk must be there to contribute to the tension and enjoyment for
the
> players. I doubt very much whether a female player thinks the risk of
having
> her character raped is part of the required tension and all the women
I
> have played with would have been horrified at the idea. I suspect that
not
> only would it not have been fun, it would also have destroyed
friendships
> so failing at more than being a good GM. I just do not believe you
cant
> manage a world in a fair and consistant way without avoiding having a
PC
> raped.
> Phil
I think Phil is absolutely right, except that it's not just female
players who can get horrified. I played in a Dark Sun campaign where
all players were male. One was playing a female elf thief who was
captured by the town guards after trying to purloin a steel dagger. The
guards were making noises about raping her and the player took it for a
little while but then made it known that in his real life spare time he
counselled rape victims and that this was too close to home. Wimp
player, you might say? Not at all, IMHO a person who deals with rape
every day. Face it, most of us play this game to have fun, and if the
scenario just is not fun, it's time to let the DM know. BTW, the DM did
a good job by calling a break, letting everybody mellow out, and when we
resumed,the rape thread was gone.
Paul Culotta
"There are no saving throws versus swords." - Old Paladin
Saying[A[A[D[B[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C
[C[C[C[D[D[D
Michael Poidinger
word torture for rape, would the posts have been any different?
The fact is that certain actions are sanctioned by Western society, and some
are not. Third party violence with little graphic detail is considered
harmless enough to be watched by toddlers. Semi-simulated sex is relegated to
16+.
We are all products of our upbringing.
Mike
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr Mike Poidinger | Hey Christian God, get out of my face
Microbiology | Your holy ghost is a curse on the human race
UWA, Australia | I'd like to string you up one more time,
| No stupid sacrament, no pissy wine (Snog)
mi...@uniwa.uwa.edu.au
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Kesselman
Michael Poidinger <mi...@uniwa.uwa.edu.au> wrote:
>If we were to take ALL of the posts on the subject of rape, and substitute the
>word torture for rape, would the posts have been any different?
Yes, they would have made alot less sense. Youa ren't dealing with a
LARGE 5 of the american population being the subjects of torture. Youa re
with rape.
>
>The fact is that certain actions are sanctioned by Western society, and some
>are not. Third party violence with little graphic detail is considered
>harmless enough to be watched by toddlers. Semi-simulated sex is relegated to
>16+.
>
Which, IMO, is part of the problem. No wonder we are so screwed up
sexually in this country. I couldn't agree with you more about American
society's values. We just had three video games rated for release t this
christmas. i am going to omit game names as my eployers woudl not want
their name dragged into this, but here were the results:
1) Head to heaed fighting game with mele weapons.
Lots of animated blood. Back of package shows
'red-rain'.
Rating: Amiated Violence - Teen
2) Racing game where you blow up other cars, has live video
sequences.
Rating: Animate Violence, Realistic Violence - Teen
3) Another car combat game, not as intense. Has
some dorky footage for video sequences with 2 MST3000
type commentators making nasty comments. They use
a few 'naughty words' and make some oblique sexual
refernces (about half-way between MAD magazine and
National Lampoon).
Rating: Mild Language, Suggestive Themes - Mature
Is it any wonder that a society that thinks violence is more 'normal'
and less harmful then consensual sex has such a high rape incidence? I
can't answer that one, you have to decide for yourselves.
>We are all products of our upbringing.
>
But some of us strive to get beyond it it. (Although, I must admit,I WAS
brought up by very caring, sensitive parents myself. Still, i grew up in
this society of ours.)
I apolgize as this is a trifle off topic.
Jeff Kesselman
hammersmith otto j
> 1) Tried to argue that more men get raped them women due to
> prision incidents.
I believe this one was me... I realize how the attribution can
get a *bit* messed up after half-a-dozen replies but I thought I'd clear
it up. I apologize if anyone took my comment as belittling the crime of
rape. I was only trying to bring up a point I had hear and to see if
anyone had any coroboration. Sorry for the confusion.
> 2) Questioned the origin of the 3 otu of 5 number.
> 3) Apparently treid to make some kind of issue out of the
> fact that I have indirect actuall experience with this
> subject.
> 4) Tried to nit-pick with the definition of rape as defined
> by the above mentioend number.
>
>I have to ask why do you find this concept, that women ARE being raped in
>scary numbers in our society, so threatening?
>
>Jeff Kesselman
>
--
-Otto.
Me
>>
>> Let me give an example of what I mean by miss the clues. Lets say a bunch of
>> orcs captures a female PC. They tie her hands behind her back and they flump
>> her over their shoulders her feet are tied as well. They bring her to
>> their lair and proceed to untie her to tie her to a post or something like
>> that. Now in the process of untying and tying her she has an opportunity
>> to escape.
>>
>> In fact she has an an opportunity to escape when they are tying her hands.
>>
>> If she is a spell caster and she has spells with verbal only components
>> she has another opportunity to escape.
>>
>> She has an opportunity to escape by not being caught.
>>
>> She also has her comrades.
Assuming they are there.
Unless she was unwise enuf to break off from her party and wander off alone
in nasty territory.
>>
>>
>
>Whre are her comrades? She can't do anything about them if they aren't THERE.
>Do you expect a lone character to outfight a clan of orcs. Isn't that asking
>a bit much? You can't always asssume that the PCs are high-level or that the
>orcs are wimpy especially not with the DM that likes to make monsters
>high-level fighters too. In the situation you're describing, hte player
>wouldn't be at fault for not escaping, it would be the DM.
The DM's primary job is to manage the world in a fair and consistent manner.
Therefore if it was logical and consistent for a PC to be raped it is not
the DM's fault that it happened.
Mark Hills
In a previous article, drus...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Dru A Smith) says:
>In article <Cys7K...@freenet.carleton.ca>,
>
> Very mature. Since you're the one who originally got me (and others)
>started on this thread, it's not too difficult to see how your immaturity
>can so easily let rapes occur in your game without the sympathy and
>horror they deserve.
> Dru
I'm sorry you feel that way.
Me
>>The DM's primary job is to manage the world in a fair and consistent manner.
>>Therefore if it was logical and consistent for a PC to be raped it is not
>>the DM's fault that it happened.
>
>
>for the party. Well getting killed isnt fun but sometimes it happens and
And he does that by managing the world in a fair and consistent manner. I as
a DM feel I would be doing my players a disservice by cheating of them
of the fair, consistent and logical events that would occur in the world
around them.
As a player I have played in Sanitized Worlds, and I have found it to be
phony and nonfun.
>that risk must be there to contribute to the tension and enjoyment for the
>players. I doubt very much whether a female player thinks the risk of having
>her character raped is part of the required tension and all the women I
>have played with would have been horrified at the idea. I suspect that not
I have DM'ed for females and have had attempted rape situations. They dealt
with it rather well, usually managing to escape.
I played in one game where the female character did not escape. She and the
rest of the party then spent various gaming sessions seeking vengence.
You know the strange thing about this thread is there are alot of men
saying what should and should happen and how they roleplayed women. There
have been no female opinions in this thread whatsoever.
Kevin Mendel
-In article <msuzio.7...@tiamat.umd.umich.edu>,
msu...@tiamat.umd.umich.edu (Mike Suzio) writes:
>>> An interesting point comes out of all of this - a lot of people are
>>> mentioning that they either ignore the issue of rape or work around it
>>> by some method (i.e., not a lot of female PC/NPCs, all-powerful god who
>>> zots rapists, etc.). Most of them were sort of apologetic about it, but
>>> they all basically said: "I hate to let a heavy issue like this into my
>>> game."
Mike,
Speaking for myself, your summation of this is not even close to
a generalization.
I have tried to put some very "heavy stuff" into my games - its an
adult game, and the characters face adult issues. Sometimes its
actually worked out the way I planned, and the players thought it
was "heavy stuff", too.
But in the end what I choose to exclude (not ignore, exclude) and
what I choose to include is based on entertainment value.
But some things are just -not- entertaining. I think that sexual
assaults are not entertaining. I would not associate with anyone who
thought they were. They can do their own thing - just somewhere else.
I think that confronting others with the brutal facts of a sexual
assault is not entertaining either. At first glance, this can be
very cruel to any women in the game; at second glance, it can be
cruel to men as well. That's not fun. Maybe there are some ways that
interacting with your friends can help you work through some
feelings on some "heavy stuff" - but make some coffee and have a
conversation, but don't play ADnD.
- - - - -
I wanted to close this note by coming up with a parallel example
of a topic which would be as offensive to men in a role-playing
situation, and then asking "how would you feel?"
But, dang it, I can't think of one.
What does -that- mean?
-
Kevin Mendel
(kevin....@lkg.mts.dec.com)
Mike Suzio
>OK, now that I've read everything in this thread, I do have a question.
>For those of you who are so terribly concerned about your D&D worlds being
>as realistic as possible (that's your justification for using rape, I
>believe), do you also _exclude_ magic, magic items, and fantastic
>monsters? They're all about as realistic as a world without rape!
*Sigh*
Look, first of all, I feel no need to "justify" anything. It's my game,
the players are comfortable with it, everything is groovy. My only point
was that I allow the possibility of rape in my game, just like I allow the
possibility of death, torture, mutilation, and all other sorts of nasty
things. Bad stuff happens - the question is, how do the characters deal
with it?
I like putting people into moral dilemmas, because I like the interplay
that comes out of it, and it helps flesh out a character. I remember these
kinds of characters much more than Grunt the Barbarian. One possible
situation is rape - I'm not sure if I've ever used it before in a game
(other than one character who had it deep in her background), but I did
decide to use it in this one. It's not a major situation, but I hope it
will have an impact, and I want to see what the characters do - do the
mostly pacifistic priest and paladin freak out and kill everyone? Maybe.
But what if they overcome even this and decide to stay true to their faith
and try to forgive the rapists? Interesting dilemma... We'll see.
Enough said. I don't take the subject lightly, but I'm not going to shy
away from admitting that it does happen, it's one of the evils we all have
to face, and maybe this will help me deal with the rage I feel knowing this
happens.
- Mike
PS - I'm willing to stand behind Jeff's statistic of 3 in 5 women being
raped. My own informal poll seems to support this. Since I have four
sisters, excuse me while I go out and hit something until I can regain
self-composure.
Mike Suzio
>-In article <msuzio.7...@tiamat.umd.umich.edu>,
> msu...@tiamat.umd.umich.edu (Mike Suzio) writes:
[Comments I made on people who seem to excessively avoid rape or other
"heavy" situations in their games]
>>>> zots rapists, etc.). Most of them were sort of apologetic about it, but
>>>> they all basically said: "I hate to let a heavy issue like this into my
>>>> game."
> Mike,
> Speaking for myself, your summation of this is not even close to
> a generalization.
Well, I know I didn't but it in, but this was IMHO. I was *not* trying to
slam anyone here, I have no right to tell people how to "really roleplay",
I'm not Gary Gygax or Mark Rein*Hagen
> I have tried to put some very "heavy stuff" into my games - its an
> adult game, and the characters face adult issues. Sometimes its
> actually worked out the way I planned, and the players thought it
> was "heavy stuff", too.
Cool. I like that kind of stuff, too. It's not the main focus of my
games, really, but it is a factor in things.
> But in the end what I choose to exclude (not ignore, exclude) and
> what I choose to include is based on entertainment value.
Well... yes, I guess. But I think that entertainment value isn't the only
measure I'm trying to use here. Let me answer the next point.
> But some things are just -not- entertaining. I think that sexual
> assaults are not entertaining. I would not associate with anyone who
> thought they were. They can do their own thing - just somewhere else.
You are seriously slighting me here. Really, I would never, *ever*, refer
to sexual assaults as "entertaining". Way too loaded a word to use, and
I'm pretty sure *I* never used that word.
No, all I'm saying is, like any other mental pursuit I engage in, I like to
be challenged by it, I like to have it make me think. There is a large
difference between confronting and considering an issue and finding it
titillating. It's precisely the position of "Yeah, my female character cut
off some orcs dick after he raped her, huh huh huh" that I am arguing
*against*. All I'm saying is, if you want to include any heavy issue, be
sure you treat it appropriately and that you really want to confront it. I
don't like all the things I see now that I've been discussing this issue
for a while. I'm all tense on the subject, and the rape scene (which is
all off-camera and in the past when the characters confront it) hasn't even
happened in my game. I've *never* used it in a game before - please don't
make it seem like I encouraged this as a major plot point, cmon!
> I think that confronting others with the brutal facts of a sexual
> assault is not entertaining either. At first glance, this can be
> very cruel to any women in the game; at second glance, it can be
> cruel to men as well. That's not fun. Maybe there are some ways that
> interacting with your friends can help you work through some
> feelings on some "heavy stuff" - but make some coffee and have a
> conversation, but don't play ADnD.
Well, you have your opinion, I have mine. I know I could easily discuss
this issue (or almost any other) with my friends over coffee. OK, maybe we
will if this turns out to be a heavy topic outside the game, too. But for
me, it won't hurt anything to make it a factor in my AD&D game, we'll all
deal with fine.
BTW, there are only three players in my game, none of them women. One of
the guys ex-girlfriends was raped (by another woman), but he's my best
friend, I know he's dealt with it. The other two guys, I don't know. One
of them was homeless for a long time, and I'm pretty sure he was hooking to
make a living then. In any case, if these folks were not literally my best
friends in the world, I would never involve them in something I thought was
chancy.
I guess I should also mention that I draw the line on this issue pretty
tight - I don't think I could do an on-stage rape scene, and I sure as hell
would never rape a PC. Actually, about the most I will ever do is let it
be known that an NPC has been raped... we'll see how it goes from there.
> - - - - -
> I wanted to close this note by coming up with a parallel example
> of a topic which would be as offensive to men in a role-playing
> situation, and then asking "how would you feel?"
> But, dang it, I can't think of one.
> What does -that- mean?
It means men have it way too easy, doesn't it? Women are raped because men
have the power, men direct society and it's rather sick portrayals of
female sexuality, and men tell women not to report rapes and to be ashamed.
Knowing the facts of rape, I still can't say I hate myself because I'm a
man... but I sure as hell do feel ashamed that as I'm sitting here right
now, someone is forcing themselves on a woman because they think it makes
them a man. Like I told someone in email today, it takes more than a dick
to make you a man.
- Mike
PS: I'd like to point out that even at it's somewhat confrontational
points, this discussion has been a very well-reasoned dialogue that has
taught me a lot. It made me ask some women I am very close to some tough
questions. I didn't like what I heard, but I'm learning to deal with it.
Jeff Kesselman
Me <msh...@hertz.njit.edu> wrote:
>In article <39m0hu$8...@st-james.comp.vuw.ac.nz> mdl...@lhn.gns.cri.nz writes:
>
>
>You know the strange thing about this thread is there are alot of men
>saying what should and should happen and how they roleplayed women. There
>have been no female opinions in this thread whatsoever.
>--
Not strange at all Matt. I've recieved private email thanking me for
bringing this up from a number of women, actually, since the thread started.
This is just further illustration of something I said before. The the
women in your circle are likely to suffer in silence rather then risk
rejection, belittlement, or having to deal with the kinds of attitudes we
have seen crop up around here. When you have a very personal trauma, the
last thing you want is to be put in the position of havign to defend your
emotions. That just adds to the hurt and frustration.
Point of fact, rape is an ETREMELY hard accusation to prove to a court's
satisfaction. That, along with the fact that the plaintiff WILl be put
through all kinds of badgering about her part in it, keeps most rape
cases out of the courts. If someone is unwillign to go through that
badgering for something as important as getting jsutcice, why should they
want to open themselves up to such things in this group?
It may be hard, but if you can TRY to think like someone who has been so
personally violated, you can naswer many of these questiosn yourself (its
called 'sensitivity'.)
As a real-world example, Ill point you to the just concluded tail-hook
hilton trial. As defense the Hilton used all the standard rapist
defenses- she was drunk, she was promiscuous, she was 'teasing' , etc...
I thank the gods that in this case justice was served, and the Hilton
lost big-time.
Jeff Kesselman
Matt Hurd
my intention was to show how i thought rapists should be treated by the actions
of my mage, Poindexter. i had never given it much thought in the game because
it was only a *game*.
my point is that real life drama's are in some cases good to explore in a
game so that the individual may be able to express his deep feelings in a
*real world* peacuful manner - although Poindexter had acted chaoticly, i am
still my self and have not gone out and did any harm to anyone that is a rapist
or has been accused of being one! likewise my friend had the opportunity to
capture and kill the group of brigands that set fire to his character's barn
even though in real life his real barn burning has not been avenged!!! but
i can see in his face that he feels *a little* better because he didn't let
them get away with it again...
well, outside of the game, the topic is a very weighty one indeed. and if i
had Poindexter's power i would perform the same acts he did and in defense of
all raped victims.
let me make this comment: these are my feelings at this time concerning rape,
however they may change if someone really close to me becomes a victim...
thanks,
matt h.
--
matt hurd m...@wlv.iipo.getgsc.com /\ WARNING
these thoughts and opinions were brought to \/ DO NOT REMOVE THIS PARTICLE
you by the letters ipx and the number 2 /\ |
- no one else was involved - especially me... \/ V
Jeff Hildebrand
: An interesting point comes out of all of this - ...
: In my games, I guess we tackle a fair number of : heavy issues - ...
: So... I guess there are "theme-based" games and "action based" games. My
: current D&D game is very theme-based, and I think the fact that we play it
: very close to diceless shows that.
I find my players doing many of the same themes:
Should we kill evil creatures just because they are evil and we know
they'll attempt to wreak havoc if we let them live?
Should we petition the <fill in favorite ruler title here> to support
public schooling for the masses, or should we for a consortium of
rich to create trade schools?
Should we be allowed to exploit the lands resources, even if it causes
some other race to lose because they can't live without the resources
we mine out of the area?
And yes, some games get downright diceless. But these are issues we,
as adults, actually look at in real life (death penalty, government
social programs, environmental issues) and we can discuss these issues
without emotional discomfort. Even though our group has sufficient
diversity to have different opinions (I'm a political liberal, one of
my best friends is very conservative and the rest of the group seem
to fit the spectrum in between us), we can treat it as a mental
exercise. Those "themes" that can't be handled without emotional
difficulty will be naturally avoided by a close knit group of people who
know each others "hot buttons" and aren't out to prove a point, just
to have a little escapist fun.
Matthew Hickey
>>believe in the use of the game to explore ourselves, in a manner described
>>by Mark Rein*Hagen in Wraith:The Oblivion. Most of you do not do this, and
>>many (like John Kesselman) have advocated not including rape in the
>>campaign.
>
> 1) the name is Jeff, actually. :)
Sorry, I was writing on the fly.
> 2) You may have missed some of my earlier posts, but I play the
> game exactly this way and for these reasons. HOWEVER it is
> VERY important to tailor your game to the emotional
> readiness of Judge and players. This is a subject that
> only a very mature group is really ready to tackle. It
> soudns from your decriptions like yours is.
I accept the compliment on the make-up of my group. But you have
advocated against it. Errring on the side of caution is still erring.
>You are assuming magic, my friend. Going into long character stories is
>BORING so I didn't get very deep into it. Sicne you've brught it up, the
[ description of healing scene explained with background]
Ahh, I understand now. Thank you. I've always been a sucker for
deep backgrounds (the Warhammer priestess had four pages of one-line notes
and over a dozen pages of miscellanea attached to her sheet).
>> I've changed the subject of this thread to try and expand on the
>>topic, transforming the discussion on rape into the larger framework of
>>mature content in the game - specifically sex and sexuality. Feel free to
>>respond about this.
>>
>
>Actually, I don't think you have changed the topic. Talking about
>mechanisms for handling mature and emotionally difficult role-play situations
>is a very valid part of this disucssion.
The change I mentioned was in the subject line. I wanted to follow
that post up with an 'introduction' of sorts to steer the thread, but I didn'
t have the time.
>Oh, one last comment. Although it soudns like youa re handlign it
>over-all well enough, i couldn't help but notice how MUCh of your
>plot-lines seem to be rape-driven or rape-involved. While this
The plot lines mentioned are actually in the minority. They only
seem larger because I took them out of their group contexts. (Three
characters over 7 years of gaming - both playing and GMing, a total of over
a hundred different and not-so-different backgrounds).
My own fascination (if it could be put in such a way) with rape as a
character device, is with the complexity and depth it adds to a character.
I stated before my love of very detailed pasts and such, but I neglected to
state my major litterary influences. They are the works of the Circle of
Seven (the Fifth Millenium shared-world but out by Bantam -esp. the 'Shadow'
series) and anything with Marion Zimmer Bradley's name on it (Darkover,
Friends of Darkover short anthologies and her Sword and Sorceress gneric
fantasy anthologies). Miss Bradley's stuff is mostly written by women and
most involve some form of violence that spurrs the protagonist to become an
adventurer (remember, adventurers are a marginalized sub-culture in any
society). The most traumatic of these is the rape, tied only with
additional complication of a rape-caused pregnancy. The problems this
raises for the character (wether they are a bastard resulting from the
event, or a rape survivor) can bring a lot to a game.
Yes, I understand (and use) several other themes that can bring an
equal ammount of complexity. I didn't mention them since the subject at
hand is rape. In a similar sexual context, I also employ homosexuality (in
medieval society, you might as well rape sheep), pregnacy (as it affects the
adventurer's life, unwed pregnancy among nobility, and unwanted pregnacy,
not to mention the result of an imperfect pregancy), and various levels of
socially accepted and enforced sexism.
>accurately reflects a tredn in 20th century media, I can't say as how
>i agree with it. I'm not saying, with the right group, a role-play rape
>situation can't be a growing exerience emotionally, but i can DEFINATELY
>be overused, and cheapend therefor. Just something to be careful of.
IMO, it is only cheapened if it is treated as casual occurance, with
no emotional implications, or it is stereotyped ('you got raped because you
were dressed like that', etc.).
>Jeff Kesselman
mdl...@lhn.gns.cri.nz
>>for the party. Well getting killed isnt fun but sometimes it happens and
>
>And he does that by managing the world in a fair and consistent manner. I as
>a DM feel I would be doing my players a disservice by cheating of them
>of the fair, consistent and logical events that would occur in the world
>around them.
>
>As a player I have played in Sanitized Worlds, and I have found it to be
>phony and nonfun.
Perhaps if ALL players required your world to have that kind of logic than
your remarks are true. The world is my creation and I dont think it has
to be "Sanitized" so that a rape (as opposed to threat of rape) doesnt happen.
Anything I like can happen it. Some how I just cant imagine a player saying
to me "your world feels phony to me, I mean we've been adventuring in it
for 3 player years and none of the females (the majority) have been raped
yet". I frankly dont buy that GMing in a fair and consistant manner means
players will have nights when they are revolted by the adventure. Thats
not what my players want. YMMV
Phil
CARLA WILLISTON
(stuff gone)
>You know the strange thing about this thread is there are alot of men
>saying what should and should happen and how they roleplayed women. There
>have been no female opinions in this thread whatsoever.
Well, here's one then. I have a favorite character, a mage. She's half elf,
half mongol human (don't ask me, it was the background she was given). She
always has a polymorph self or alter self spell ready. Most of the time,
when players come across creatures, they just attack. However, my character,
when pressed into a confrontation with potentially dangerous races will
change herself into one of that race (if she can change without being seen
by the creatures). Creatures are generally assumed to be all male. So, with
both DMs I've had, when my character comes before the advancing crowd of
creatures, they hit upon her, or demand that she give herself to their
leader, or some such thing. Every time. I guess that you can kind of expect
that low-intelligence race's males would feel like mating with every female
they see. My character always has managed to get out of it though, sometimes
resorting to killing the creatures, sometimes with help from friends. There
was once that my character was charmed (by her own mace) and sent naked out
into the streets of a grimey shanty town, but the DM strongly suggested to
the character responsible that he'd better stop that.
I would really not appreciate my character getting raped by either
greasy sailor men, or goblins, or evil knights, or anything. If my character
was, she has the resources available to hunt down and mutilate those
responsible (not kill, that's too final and easy). I would not like the idea
at all, and the NPC or character or creature would have to be destroyed (in
the game of course :P).
Subject opinion: If your character tries to get away, but the DM says you
can't get away, then it is the DM's fault. If you say 'oh well' and just let
your character get raped, then it's your fault.
:{ The Felinish One =`@_@'=
014...@axe.acadiau.ca
Mike Suzio
>In article <msuzio.7...@tiamat.umd.umich.edu>,
>Mike Suzio <msu...@tiamat.umd.umich.edu> wrote:
>>What do I think of the *topic* of rape?
>>
>>I would most likely never involve a PC directly in a rape. That just cuts
>>too close, it's too hard to get fully into character with something so
>>*real* - nor would I want someone to have to get that close!
>>
>IMO (what else is new?)
>In the rare, proper situation, it can actually be a learnign expereince
>for a player, but very few groups are both mature and comfortable with
>each other enough to deal with this, so i basicly agree with your POV.
Well, what I am saying is that to properly represent the experience (and
not trivialize it), I would basically have to rape the player. Not
physically, but mentally (which is what it's all about, anyway). There is
no way I can find it in myself to do this - I am not able to go through
with something like that.
>>I would never trivialize rape, but I'm not going to pretend it doesn't
>>happen in a medieval world.
>>
>Thats reasonable as long as your players can deal without without
>trivializing it, and can handle the plot elements. As I've said before,
>the important thing to remember is its not just a medevil horror. If
>you play in a mixed sex group, you are quite likely to have players with
>personal experiences...
Well, the way my group is, we are not likely to ever expand beyond our
current "line-up" and we don't really involve new people in the game. So
not much chance of a female ever joining -- we just don't enjoy playing
with other people. If I *did* have a female in the group, I think I would
do things differently, no doubt. Which I guess shows how touchy an issue
this all is...
- Mike
PS - Jeff, please post a *source* for this 3 in 5 stat. It is not
intuitively obvious - as a matter of fact, I find it very hard to believe.
I'd like to know the criteria used to get this statistic - I'd have to
think whoever did the study used loaded questions and a broad definition of
rape (which IMHO *is* trivializing it - rape is a lot more than some guy
feeling a woman's ass in a crowd)
mdl...@lhn.gns.cri.nz
>Therefore if it was logical and consistent for a PC to be raped it is not
>the DM's fault that it happened.
Disagree entirely. The GMs job primary job is providing an enjoyable night
for the party. Well getting killed isnt fun but sometimes it happens and
that risk must be there to contribute to the tension and enjoyment for the
players. I doubt very much whether a female player thinks the risk of having
her character raped is part of the required tension and all the women I
have played with would have been horrified at the idea. I suspect that not
Me
Ah so this is a personal issue with you then. Is the figure 3 out of 5
women are actually raped as in forced sexual intercourse or 3 out of 5
women are sexually assaulted?
>
>Jeff Kesselman
Vandi Williams
sbsh...@informatics.jax.org (Steven Sharpe) wrote:
> I'd like to know what any female players out there think of this.
>
> Personally, as a DM, I think that rape in D&D is to be avoided at all
> costs. That may not be realistic for a campaign set in a barbaric, lawless
> world, but it *is* a game, and the feelings of the players (especially any
> female ones you may have in your group, but this also goes for males
> playing female PCs as well) come first.
It's very hard for women to respond to this kind of thing, especially when
the it has to do with a male-dominated role-playing game. Personally, I
went ballistic when I first started reading this thread, but of course if
I had responded that way, I would have lost what little credibility I
might have had to begin with.
Besides, no matter what I say or do, no matter how painful such a topic
might be for me, there will always be that smug man out there saying
"Well, honey, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen," so
what does it matter?
None of my characters have ever had to go through the horror and emotional
trauma of being raped. As a DM I have never subjected anyone to rape and
I never ever will. It's challenging enough just to hold my own as a woman
playing with a bunch of men without my characters being forced into the
the traditional female position of helplessness and inferiority. That's
what I think.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Vandi Williams | Where it is a duty to worship the sun, it
...but I like the part | is pretty sure to be a crime to examine
where Icarus hijacks | the laws of heat. -Viscount John Morley
the Little Red Hen. |
Vandi Williams
For those of you who are so terribly concerned about your D&D worlds being
as realistic as possible (that's your justification for using rape, I
believe), do you also _exclude_ magic, magic items, and fantastic
monsters? They're all about as realistic as a world without rape!
I would also like to respond to Matthew Harelick's comment: "However
someone who can not deal with roleplaying because of deeper personal
conflicts should not play ADnD."
Now, I'm not sure what he means by roleplaying in this instance
(roleplaying altogether or just roleplaying certain situations), nor do I
know exactly what he meant by deeper personal conflicts in this case. I
am responding to a subset of "deeper personal conflicts" rather than the
whole set, which could include religious conflicts, bad experiences with
the game itself, bad experiences with your current players, etc.
IMHO,I think that even if I do have some emotional trauma, I have a right
to play, provided I can find other people who are willing to stay within
my comfort zone (no problems with that for 15 years now). I also think
that YOU have a right to play a game that I would never want to be a part
of. That's fine! Just please don't tell me that because I don't have the
stomach to role-play a (potential) rape victim that I should not play.
You may not want me in YOUR game, but I think that shouldn't keep me from
playing in MINE. There are thousands of role-playing situations I will
have no problems dealing with! Avoiding ONE of them really hasn't reduced
my enjoyment of the game.
Jeff Kesselman
Okay, I';ve given you 1 source-- the Madison Wi police-sponsored recovery
program. Ill look another up for you thsi weekend. I agree with you on
both accounts actually. It is NOT intuitively obvious... until the
women start talking about it in your presence, and they have to feel
you are already sensitive to the issue and their feelings to risk doing so.
I also agree with you that having your rear-grabbed (unasked for ;) ) in
public, does not count as rape, though it does count as VERY impolite and
offensive attention. Its happened to me, I don't consider myself a rape
victim. It IS however something i remember unpleasently 15 years later
and, if it had that much of an impact on me, I can begin to understand why
rape is so devistating to the one attacked...
Oh, BTW, if some GUY felt your ass in a crowd, how woudl you feel? I'm
not just twisting things here. Male and female sexual responses are
different, IMO. There are of course, exceptiosn to nay rule, and
individuals vary all over the spectrum but on the average, there
are subtle but importnt biologically engineered differences. A man on
the animal-level is programmed to give his own personal DNA the best
chance of surviving. This is accomplished by replciating it as often as
possible. men, are thus programmed to look for diversity and quantity in
partners (the famous 'seven-year itch' being one manifestation of this.)
Women, on the other hand, need a stable environment in which to reproduce
thier DNA as it takes much longer, and puts them at significantly greater
risk (talking about our wild-state, in which all these mechanisms
evolved.) Women therefor tend to be choosier about partners on the whole.
(Though this choosiness is based on different criteria then men use.)
I'ld say over-all that undue attention from an unwanted male to a female
has about the same emotional content as undue attention by the
sex-not-of-choice does to a male.
Thsi is all IMO, ofcourse, but understanding the women around me has
always been important to me, particualrly so in romantic relationships.
Because of that, I've discussed these issues alot both with the various
women I've been invovled with and those that I've just been very good
friends with.
Jeff Kesselman
Mike Suzio
mentioning that they either ignore the issue of rape or work around it
by some method (i.e., not a lot of female PC/NPCs, all-powerful god who
they all basically said: "I hate to let a heavy issue like this into my
game."
is *just a game* (White Wolf propoganda aside). However, I find it
intriguing - where do we draw the line and say "this is a heavy issue, we
better not deal with it"? In my games, I guess we tackle a fair number of
heavy issues - but we avoid just as many. For instance, in my current D&D
game, the players are pretty careful not to be murdering fiends - they
wouldn't kill except to defend themselves or others. They also know that
their are a lot of gray areas and moral ambiguity in the setting, and we
deal with it. However... if we are playing an espionage game, we usually
don't worry about things like violence - just like an Arnie movie, we blow
away countless faceless minions in various nasty ways. Are we avoiding
issues? No, they just aren't the focus of the game.
So... I guess there are "theme-based" games and "action based" games. My
current D&D game is very theme-based, and I think the fact that we play it
very close to diceless shows that. At other times, we just want to play a
game, and that's OK too. Same as going to see "The Piano", then catching
"True Lies"... :-)
Any comment on this issue?
--
|+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++|
| Michael J. Suzio msu...@umich.edu |
| Marketing Director - Friday Knight Games |
| aka "That F*K*G company!" |
|+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++|
Andrew W. Carey
largely by men who, though they seem to have given some thought to the
subject, still equate rape with sex, rather than with power or punishment.
Justifying the inclusion of direct rape of a PC by saying "those things
happen(ed)" is highly sexist unless one includes all other types of
"unpleasant" medieval conditions in their games. Do your male characters
die of syphilis? Is everyone crawling with fleas and lice? Do you
routinely cleanse ethinc minorities? How about leprosy in PC's--could be
an educational role-playing opportunity! All these things really happen!
Get real. This is a fantasy game played for enjoyment. As a long-time
female player and GM, I can deal with adversity. But I would not tolerate
a GM that seemed to enjoy delivering it with the glee expressed in some of
the responses to this subject.
I am not surprised that proportionately few women play these
games--considering the attitudes expressed in recent threads.
ISchaechterle
Jeff Kesselman
Matthew Hickey <mhi...@academic.stu.StThomasU.ca> wrote:
> This is the long awaited 'introduction' to the expanded theme. In
>
>woman turned lesbian by heterosexual rape
> (an add-on to the rape debate, this one I feel is somewhat
> troublesome, since it also implies that; 1. a person is driven to
> be 'unnatural' by tragic events. 2. that a person can be cured by '
> the right guy'. And why is it only women, and therefore
> lesbianism, that are treated this way) <-- most of my favourite
> women heroes fall into this category.
>
Hmm. Ild like some literature examples. In general, most ;esbian
characters I;ve seen have been that way from the strat of the story,
though they may not figure their full sexuality out until somehwere into
the story. (Example: TITAN. Ild say the lead charatcer was lesbian from
the beginning, but not practicing anything until fairly late in the novel.)
I myself am a little disturbed by the way you put (1). If there is an
assumption there that nont hetero-sexual feelingsa re nto natural. Ild
dispute it heavily. That, however, is another flame war, so lets drop
the subejct except ot say that I disagree with the assertion, if that is
what it is.
Relating to that, though, i must agree with being disturbed by point (2)
in that it assumes there is an illness to be cured. I have balck hair.
I'm not looking for a cure.
>woman uninterested in sex
> (this is the messiah archtype. I find the best litterary example of
> this is Elizabeth Moon's _Deed of Paksenarrion_ trilogy. It also
> seems to imply that a sexual being is not appropriate for a holy,
> or saintly stature.)
>
Hmm. Thats very christain, but actually would NOT apply well to your
typical fantasy world, which tends to be based on older religions in which
sexuality was revered. Christianity's anti-sexuality bias is a VERY
unusual thing, in comaprison to the rest of the entire history of
religon, as well as most other modern day religons (not all, but most.)
Speakign of which, and getting back to the earlier point, i understand
(but please don't ask me for a qwuote right now. if someone REALLy wnats
one Ill put it on my list of thinsg to look uip cites for) that certain
early religons actually considred homosexuality as a mark of holiness. The
shinto are interesting religously with regard to these issues in that part
of a new emperor's ascendancy to god-hood and the throne is being turned
into a woman, being impregnated by a god, and giving re-birth to himself.
Thsi as all accroding ot the newspaper accounts i read at the time of the
last emperor's ascendancy. It seemd pretty well researched, but its
always possible they got something wrong (american newspapers being what
they are these days.) But it certainly gives one a very differnt take on
religon and sexuality.
>woman adventurer searching for child/loved one
> (often linked to the rape archtype, where the child is removed after
> the woman came to terms with her feelings. But can also include
> looking for parentage, family members, etc.)
>
Actually, there are an excellent set of guides to stereo-types published,
Called the Complete <whatever> Handbooks. Lookign through them is like
reading a litny of every fantasy steroe-type ever created in a story.
(Ofcourse I'm boycotting TSR myself, but you COULD go page through them in
the store for free ;) )
I don't think stereo types inhereently limit the charatcer. Quite the
contrary, they give an easily understood base on which to build. There
are differences though between literary stero-types, and social ones.
Someon who played all his female charatcers as ditzy blondes with no
brains who would screw anything with more then 2 legs (re: male third
leg) woudl pisss me off as either another player or a Dm REAL fast.
I myself always play 'good' character types that are oin one way or
another heroic (even if they don't intend to be). Thats a sterotype in
of itself, but one I enjoy.
Jeff kesselman
Jeff Kesselman
Andrew W. Carey <aca...@scs.unr.edu> wrote:
>Reading the responses to rape, it's evident that they're written
>largely by men who, though they seem to have given some thought to the
>subject, still equate rape with sex, rather than with power or punishment.
>
At risk of stating a ::gasp:: politicly incorrect statement. I honestly
thin kto say that rape has nothing to do with sex, at least wehn
perpetrated by males, is to not-understand the male sexual response.
Points of fact, whether we liek it or not
The male sexual response is inherently tied in some basic ways to another
basic male trait... agressive behavior. If nothing else, they are both
controlled by testosterone to a certain extent and both have nearly
identical responses in the body as a whole (what is called an 'aroused state',
heightened respiration, increased heart-beat, higher adrenaline flow.)
The male is pre-programmed to seek out as many partners as possible.
thsi makes biological sense in terms of giving ones DNA this best chnace
of survivng onto the next generation.
Now, if we were just dumb animals, it would end there. The fact of the
matter, though, is that we are NOT. We have a unique cpacity for empathy
and a deep love. Whiel biologicly, these might not be as important
traits to survival of the species, socially they are paramount. It is
incumbent on us as rational, thinking, feeling creatures to feel for each
other and to treat each other with dignity and respect. But it helps to
understand where the other feelinsg come from, and that we are not 'bad
people' just becuse we have them.
As I mentioned earlier, i hate gratuitous rape-incidents in movies
epcificly BECAUSE they trigger these response areas. I can feel myself
respond to them , and i really hate beign put in that position. I've
learned however, to focus my comtempt on the film and film-maker for
pushing these buttons, and not on myself for having them. (A olesson it
tooka long time for me to learn.)
I am one of the strongest proponents in this thread for consideration of
the feelings of the plyers, and GREAT care and maturity in approaching
such subjects, but i do feel we are all served best by better
understanding. The game can be a tool to this, if used maturely and
properly.
But the statement that 'rape is not sexual' is about as much a myth as
the statement that 'women ask for it'. It is very often sexual in the
sense that the rapist derives sexual satisfaction from the act. It
certainly is NOT loving, caring, or any of the other wonderful things
that go along with a consensual, caring sexual relationship
>Get real. This is a fantasy game played for enjoyment. As a long-time
>female player and GM, I can deal with adversity. But I would not tolerate
>a GM that seemed to enjoy delivering it with the glee expressed in some of
>the responses to this subject.
>
>I am not surprised that proportionately few women play these
>games--considering the attitudes expressed in recent threads.
>
I think you are doing most of the people in this thread a real disservice
here. I have seen a lot of genuine concern and caring in the discussions
we have had and the issues brought up. Yes, there have been a few very
immature posters, but they are the exception and they have been
'corrected' by many of the other posters.
IMO saying tha this is a TABOO subject that one cannot disucss frankly
and honestly only feeds the situation that allows so many women to be
raped in silence.
Jeff kesselman
Jeff Kesselman
John Morrow <mor...@gandalf.rutgers.edu> wrote:
>malevolent before you are evil? The current trend towards "dark"
>games (where things are in shades of black) seems to be driven by a
>damand for more malevolent and shocking evils. And then it does seem
>a bit forced to have evil things eating peoples' brains and torturing
>them to death but never touching them sexually (rape, a crime of
>violence or not, is differentiated from other acts by sexual contact)
>or killing children.
Personally, I found it very difficult to run villians (I primarily ran a
Champions game) that I could not 'ghet into the heads of'. And I
couldn't get into the heads of anyoen that did not have a solid
justification, however twisted, in their own mind for their actions.
(with the excpetion fo onj villian, ill admit, who was just psychotic and
loved to kill for the power-rush.)
This naturally leads to grey-er and lexx 'evil' villians, but thats just
my style. Still, I found Dr. Doom (when he was properly written, as a
patriot of his own country) alot more interesting a character, then, say,
Galactus.
I probobly never used rape as plot-vehicle for the simple reason that
there was no way on heaven or earth that I could identify with a rapist.
>
>In addition to rape, how do GMs handle other situations of coerceon or
>exploitation (torture, slavery, prostitution, death sports) or the
>subtle line between rape and seduction (a skill which many games have
>and something that many "good guys" do in movies)?
>
This is an interesting issue. Having played a Gallant character, who is
designed to have the opposite sex fallling all over them, I know my
answer-- it omes down to respect for the other person. If in all the
flirtation, and whatever else arises, there is a constant concern for the
toher person's feelings-- includign not letting them get too deeply
involved if its not going to be possible (for a Gallant, by definition,
its isnt), then you've got a moral character.
Note that James Bond varies in the stories, and by who plays him.
Sometimes there is a clear element of mutual 'fun' in his brief
encounters with women, and sometimes (particualrly in soem of the early
Sean Connery, which tended to be grittier in general) it can get quite
exploitive (she has something he wants, so he seduces her...)
I've only read one of the Ian Flemming novels (Thunderball.)
Unfortunately, from what I got from that book, Connery's portrayal is
truer to Flemming's character. ofcourse there Is always the 'greater
good' argument here, but justifying the ends by the means, while
sometimes necessary, is always dangerous.
Just some random, late night thoughts in response to a very
thought-prevoking post.
Jeff Kesselman
OU812
>>You have, in succession, i believe:
>> 1) Tried to argue that more men get raped them women due to
>> prision incidents.
>
>raped in my game too.
>
Whether or not the person being raped is male or female is of no concern IN
A FANTASY GAME! Whether or not you are bias and see only females as the only
people to be raped is important IN A FANTASY GAME!
FANTASY GAMING is just that! HOW REAL YOU MAKE IT IS HOW REAL IT GETS!
I personally don't deal with rape in RPGs as this can lead to PROLONGED
discussions like this one.
>> 2) Questioned the origin of the 3 otu of 5 number.
>
>Because I can't believe its that high.
>And I tend to doubt statistics. Any statistical figure that someone usually
>provides is based on a sample population. I don't know what those samples
>are or the size of the samples.
>
The statistics give you an AVERAGE rating of the current situation..sometimes
this is MORE, sometimes LESS...If you want, consider the statistic to be TRUE
only at the time of the statistic being taken...IMO MORE people are raped now
than before.
>>
>>I have to ask why do you find this concept, that women ARE being raped in
>>scary numbers in our society, so threatening?
>
>I don't find it personally threatening. I just can't believe its that high.
Sorry Matt but women are being raped in scary numbers..right now! If anyone
finds this scary then DO SOMETHING about it...DON'T JUST TALK ABOUT IT!
OU812
____________________________________________________________________________
If the defendant will comply with the court, we'll reduce the hit-and-run
charges to littering.
-Judge Id E. It
____________________________________________________________________________
We would have thought it was an accidental shooting if the defendant hadn't
stopped to change clips....TWICE!
-Speaker for the Jury
____________________________________________________________________________
<BLAM><BLAM>
Stop!
<BLAM><BLAM>
Police!
-Officer Axley
____________________________________________________________________________
Gil: He's not gonna talk. We're gonna have to kill him.
Mike: Maybe we should take the gag off, Gil.
____________________________________________________________________________
Margaret Marie Lasater
Matthew Hickey <mhi...@academic.stu.StThomasU.ca> wrote:
>
<long list of female character sterotypes deleted>
Well, usually when I see a list like that I can recoginize
where they came from or they are familiar. Not so, many of them I
don't recoginize at all (not that I can't see what they are getting
at). I suppose that's is why none of my (female) characters really
resembled any of those. Perhaps that is because I am a woman, it
seems my most sterotypical characters are male (I try to avoid it).
>Off the top of my head, these are the only ones I can think of. But as
>always we can ask ourselves, does using a stereotype/archtype diminish a
>character. I would like to see input from both a short-term viewpoint (
>where I think the answer is no), and a long campaign viewpoint (where
>stereotyping can lead to a restriction in the sub-plots available, and the
>risk of role-skimming or detachment).
Sterotypical characters good for quick character sketches and starting
out. The trick is to get beyond the sterotype, no one is really
just a sterotype. I have no real quarrel with sterotypical characters
in general, as long as some depth gets added but that tends to be self-
limiting, but some sterotypes are poor because they carry with them
assumptions about male/female/human nature which maybe ought to
be examined more closely.
On the more general topic. I have gamed for years and sex in one
form of another has usually been a factor. I have seen characters
fall in love, out of love, get married, seduce, get seduced, get
VD, spread VD, get kidnapped, attacked in a variety if ways, have
been raped (in backgrounds)... It never has been a problem,
perhaps I am lucky (I doubt that), but I suspect the real reason
is GM sensitivity. The GM's (all of them, me included) are
sensitive to what the players want, if some one is uncomfortable
with a topic (any topic, not just sex related ones), it is
downplayed. Thge point is to have fun, if the _player_ is
no longer having fun, thgen there is a problem. It doesn't
matter if the character hates what is happening, as long as
the player is enjoying it. I have found that intense
role-playing with serious topics can really only occur if
the players are able to relax. If something bugs them that
much, then their tension will inhibit their characterization.
Now, none of the GM's to which I refer run a particularly
"sanitized" world. (Strange term actually, since most fanstasy
settings are sanitized to some degree - things like crushing
poverty, rampant disease get ignored). Rampant sexism can
be very common (I'm the only woman, so I feel very free to
create very sexist cultures.) In a game, it doesn't bother me.
Actually, it is has had an impact on some of the male players.
In short, sex (and related issues) should have whatever role
the GM and the players are comfortable with.
Margaret
--
"Negotiation may cost far less than war, or infinitely more: for war
cannot cost more than one's life." -- Klingon Proverb
John Michael Martz
Jeff Kesselman <jef...@netcom.com> wrote:
>At risk of stating a ::gasp:: politicly incorrect statement. I honestly
>thin kto say that rape has nothing to do with sex, at least wehn
>perpetrated by males, is to not-understand the male sexual response.
>Points of fact, whether we liek it or not
Sorry, but I must jump in here. The statement that rape has "nothing to
do with sex" is hogwash, indeed; social theorticians are beginning to
acknowledge that it obviously DOES have something to do with sex (yeah, I
know, "no shit").
>The male is pre-programmed to seek out as many partners as possible.
>thsi makes biological sense in terms of giving ones DNA this best chnace
>of survivng onto the next generation.
This sociobiological explanation is not supported by all (although, I
tend to agree with it myself).
>But the statement that 'rape is not sexual' is about as much a myth as
>the statement that 'women ask for it'. It is very often sexual in the
>sense that the rapist derives sexual satisfaction from the act. It
>certainly is NOT loving, caring, or any of the other wonderful things
>that go along with a consensual, caring sexual relationship
True.
JOHN
--
* John M. Martz: Psychology Dept, UNC-CH * *
| CB# 3270, Davie Hall | B = f(P,E) |
| Chapel Hill, NC 27599 | --Kurt Lewin |
* JOHN_...@UNC.EDU * *
Jeff Stehman
> I wanted to close this note by coming up with a parallel example
> of a topic which would be as offensive to men in a role-playing
> situation, and then asking "how would you feel?"
> But, dang it, I can't think of one.
> What does -that- mean?
That you didn't think of directing the question at men who have been
raped?
--
Jeff Stehman Senior Systems Administrator
ste...@southwind.net SouthWind Internet Access, Inc.
voice: (316)263-7963 Wichita, KS
Tyler Bannister
> Well said, I use a similar tactic on PCs who murder each other. Such
> infighting destroyed too many fun games for my taste. Especially, hte one
> where the fighter used his javelin of lightning at the cleric becasue he didn't
> like his attitude. Iw asn't DMsing that one. The people were pissed at each
> other for awhile after that. Also, having avatars of justice appear is also a
> persuader.
> sure, this may not be realistic, but I never said I care for too much realism
> especially when the enjoyment of the game is at stake.
>
>
> The Darksphere Master
> An advocate of Order through Anarchy
There's a much simpler way to teach that fighter a lesson, not involving the gods ect. The next time there's a combat (which being GM you may be able to REAL soon) Have the toughest opponent (or several opponents) select that fighter. Imagine when the fighter's dying (I'm assuming Death's Door rules) and the the rest of the party has to tell him heal you? What do you think we brought the clerics **YOU** killed for? It's works quite well too if there are other clerics... Heal you? Ha not likely...
I'm safer with you quite dead...
Vandi Williams
(Me) wrote:
> In article <39m0hu$8...@st-james.comp.vuw.ac.nz> mdl...@lhn.gns.cri.nz writes:
> >>The DM's primary job is to manage the world in a fair and consistent
manner.
> >>Therefore if it was logical and consistent for a PC to be raped it is not
> >>the DM's fault that it happened.
> >
> >
> >Disagree entirely. The GMs job primary job is providing an enjoyable night
> >for the party. Well getting killed isnt fun but sometimes it happens and
>
> And he does that by managing the world in a fair and consistent manner. I as
> a DM feel I would be doing my players a disservice by cheating of them
> of the fair, consistent and logical events that would occur in the world
> around them.
Whether or not you agree with the "DM as a manager only" style of play, it
IS possible for the DM to be the controller too. I think that most of the
people who have written so far would object to that kind of DMing, but
that is one case where it definitely would be the DM's fault.
I have thought of a situation, however, where not only should the DM be a
controller, but nasty things like rape and torture should NEVER be allowed
to happen to PCs: when first teaching children how to play.
I fully intend to make AD&D a family activity and to include my children
when they're old enough (probably around nine-years-old), and you can bet
that I will NOT be running a campaign where my nine-year-old daughter's or
son's character is in any danger of being molested. In this case, I do
not think I would be doing anyone a disservice.
Scuminus Dregg
: At risk of stating a ::gasp:: politicly incorrect statement. I honestly
: thin kto say that rape has nothing to do with sex, at least wehn
: perpetrated by males, is to not-understand the male sexual response.
: Points of fact, whether we liek it or not
: The male sexual response is inherently tied in some basic ways to another
: basic male trait... agressive behavior. If nothing else, they are both
: controlled by testosterone to a certain extent and both have nearly
: identical responses in the body as a whole (what is called an 'aroused
: state',
: heightened respiration, increased heart-beat, higher adrenaline flow.)
(bits deleted)
: But it helps to
: understand where the other feelinsg come from, and that we are not 'bad
: people' just becuse we have them.
: As I mentioned earlier, i hate gratuitous rape-incidents in movies
: epcificly BECAUSE they trigger these response areas. I can feel myself
: respond to them , and i really hate beign put in that position. I've
: learned however, to focus my comtempt on the film and film-maker for
: pushing these buttons, and not on myself for having them. (A olesson it
: tooka long time for me to learn.)
Same here; I went on feeling guilty for years (I'm a recovering Catholic)
before I learned to accept my dark side, and ever since have had no
trouble keeping it under control.
: But the statement that 'rape is not sexual' is about as much a myth as
: the statement that 'women ask for it'. It is very often sexual in the
: sense that the rapist derives sexual satisfaction from the act. It
I've said as much in a previous, similar thread. Rape is sexual; I know
from the above-mentioned sexual response. If it *weren't* sexual, people
wouldn't find it titillating enough to make into TV movies, etc. Telling
people "It's not about the feeling you feel, no matter what you feel,
trust me," is silly and illogical.
: >I am not surprised that proportionately few women play these
: >games--considering the attitudes expressed in recent threads.
I don't know what you're talking about. I think you've not been reading all
the responses, or if you have it's been through some sort of angry-colored
glass. Oodles of them have been, IMO, well-thought out, well worded,
and, if you must have the PC term, sensitive. Almost none of them, even
of those supporting the use of rape in a game context, have been of the
"well, women should buckle up and learn to take it" variety. Rather, most
who have spoken for it thus far have wanted to use it to either simulate
reality, or to provoke thought and character depth. Which brings me to
another point:
In article <39pnnv$g...@silver.scs.unr.edu>,
Andrew W. Carey <aca...@scs.unr.edu> wrote:
: Justifying the inclusion of direct rape of a PC by saying "those things
: happen(ed)" is highly sexist unless one includes all other types of
: "unpleasant" medieval conditions in their games.
Sexist? In what way, exactly? That seems to be a popular catchword,
rather the modern-day "supercalafragalisticexpialodocious"; say it for
any occassion.
: Do your male characters
: die of syphilis?
No, they usually get a Cure Disease cast, and then they're fine, same as the
females.
: Is everyone crawling with fleas and lice?
Depending on the campaign: Ars Magica, with an authentic medieval
setting, absolutely. AD&D, there's spells to clean up that sort of thing.
In either event, fleas and lice are bound to show up on occassion, far
more often than rape. However, they seldom have any bearing on a
character's personality, so they really don't become a potent campaign
force, if that's what you're asking, no.
: Do you
: routinely cleanse ethinc minorities?
Ever hear of clearing an area of a tribe of orcs? Or orcs returning the
favor? There you go. Non-human races replace human ethnicities in AD&D.
If you mean in other games, in my own human-only world, they sure as hell
do have Jihads and racial/nationalistic wars.
: How about leprosy in PC's--could be
: an educational role-playing opportunity! All these things really happen!
Once again, Cure Disease works wonders. In a more realistric campaign,
such as Ars Magica, the situation certainly applies; in that game, and in
GURPS, there are even point costs for the disadvantage.
Scuminus Dregg
--
--
"That which does not kill me had better be able to run away damn fast."
Andrew W. Carey
I did not say rape was a taboo subject. In rereading my remarks about
male players, I am forced to admit an over-reaction and generalization;
my excuse is my disbelief at reading some of the truly immature comments
make by male posters on the three or four subjects groups on this subject.
Rape has happened in our games--twice in eight years, once to my
character. Again, I sense a gleefulness in some of the postings that
offends me whereas the actual subject does not.
As for your analysis of the male sexual response I'd like to refute some
points--and I mean no offense to your ideas. My professional training
has emphasized that the differences in male and female sexual response,
apart from very basic biology, are cultural. That means the
aggressiveness, the response to visual stimuli, etc. This culture is
merely perpetuated when subjects like rape are treated lightly.
Likewise the "man is programmed to get all he can" viewpoint is simply a
social theory, and other exist that view reproductive needs and drives in
different lights.
I am not in a personal position to weigh the ratio of sex to power that
makes up the rape act. But rapists themselves have stated that power
over another very often is their motivating force. And equating sex with
power is again a cultural norm that we have the ability to recognize,
even as we participate in it (I get turned on at movies, too, by things
that repulse me intellectually--but I can recognize that for what it is
and move beyond it).
As for using AD&D as a tool for exploring the psyche, I agree with you
that one must be very careful. As a GM, but not a degreed therapist, I
would never presume to do this. I think is GMs who want to must make it
clear to all players and obtain group consensus.
ISchaechterle
Jeff Kesselman
Those who would be offended probobly shouldn't read it]
In article <39sa7t$2...@silver.scs.unr.edu>,
Andrew W. Carey <aca...@scs.unr.edu> wrote:
>Jeff, Jeff, Jeff;
>
>I did not say rape was a taboo subject. In rereading my remarks about
>male players, I am forced to admit an over-reaction and generalization;
>my excuse is my disbelief at reading some of the truly immature comments
>make by male posters on the three or four subjects groups on this subject.
>
Okay. I've had my share of draw-dropping astonishment too. poitn taken
and dropped. I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your statements.
>As for your analysis of the male sexual response I'd like to refute some
>points--and I mean no offense to your ideas. My professional training
>has emphasized that the differences in male and female sexual response,
>apart from very basic biology, are cultural.
Umm. This is nature v. nurture and is a VERY old argument.
I had a heated argument 10+ years ago with a psych grad student (the
mother of a Highschool freind of mine) in which she stated tha the
'chemical model' of the brain HAD NEVER produced results and WOULD NEVER
produce results. That's what she was trained.... well, its 10 years
later and the 2 biggest steps foward in the treatemnt of mental illness
have both been psyhcopharmacological-- the anti-psychotics and
anti-depressants.
The moral here is be wary of buying 100% into something just cause you've
been trained that its a 'fact'.
MY training is in part film school. The phsyiological data i referred to
comes from very diorect studies on the effect of stimulus on people's
systems. To a certain degree, where the reation orginiated is
irrelevent. As I KNOW I've been raised to be a sensative caring person, I
deplore violence, and a rape scene will still push my button, I conclude
that much at least is physical.
>Likewise the "man is programmed to get all he can" viewpoint is simply a
>social theory, and other exist that view reproductive needs and drives in
>different lights.
It is, however, a perfectly reasonable explaination of the documented
very primitive responses. Give me one that explains what I've seen and
experienced as well and ill be happy to consider it. Til then, it is an
adaquate model for me.
It is also VERy hard to draw the line between biology and sociology.. it
may even be fallacious to try. Ultimately, we fall into the social
paterns that 'feel right' to us. What feels right, on the average,is
probobly what we evolved to be. We devide the rest of the animal kingdom
nochalantly into evolved behavior patterns (pack animals, solitary
hunters, etc.) Its easy to see elemnts of our behavior patterns in our
closest relatives (go to the zoo and watch the monkeys for awhile..
besides being educational it's fun!)
To say that such and such is social and not evolutionary may be as
pointelss as saying that something is elemntally fire as opposed to
elementally water. (An artifical distinction that serves no practical
point.)
>
>I am not in a personal position to weigh the ratio of sex to power that
>makes up the rape act. But rapists themselves have stated that power
>over another very often is their motivating force.
Um. Again, be careful of putting the car before the horse. Would
someone who felt empowerd enough to have normal relationships stoop to
rape? It an interesting point. I'm not sure you can prove much of
anything with a correlation, except that it correlates (if you've had
soem formal scietific training, as you seem to indicate, yous should know
this.)
>And equating sex with
>power is again a cultural norm that we have the ability to recognize,
Again. Is it cultural or is the cultural aspect a reflection of the
underlying biological connection? Looking at the animal kingdom, you see
close ties between sex and agression. Amogn other things, the alpha male
in a pack is the biggest, toughest one that keeps the others in line
through intimidation... he is also the one allowed to reproduce.
Frankly, I take my own responses to things in movies as good evidence. I
have NEVER been particularly controlled by cultural norms or tabboos
(drives my wife nuts.) The fact that it still has such a profound
impact on me says that thsi is NOT a culturally trained response. My
secondary response, one of revulsion, may be a culturally trained
response in that my folks laid a strong set of basic positive values down
in me, but IMO this is a very GOOD thing.
>As for using AD&D as a tool for exploring the psyche, I agree with you
>that one must be very careful. As a GM, but not a degreed therapist, I
>would never presume to do this. I think is GMs who want to must make it
>clear to all players and obtain group consensus.
Its more a question of making the environment conducive for people who
want to explore themselves, and social situations from different points
of view.
I don't need a therapist for my self-exploration. Eliza is based on a
real school of therapy, and I am abotu as impressed by it as I have been
by other therpaists I;ve known.
Note that I am particualrly biased AGAINSt psychologists, because I
suffered from a physical problem that they couldn't do anything about
(Unipolar Affective Disorder.) I don't blame them for that, I DO blame
them for not KNOWING they couldn't do anything about. In pretending
that they could, they did more harm then good.
(I eventually stumbled across a psychiatrist, big difference, who happened
to be a leader in treatment of my disorder. He put me on the right
medication, and 4 weeks later my problem basicly vanished.)
Anyway, MY personal, slanted opinion, is the LAST thing I'ld want is a GM
who THINKS he/she knows what they are doing with my brain and meddles.
Its my brain, just give me the environment to explroe it and I'll learn
alot on my own (and have.)
VERY DEFINATELY IMO.
Jeff Kesselman
PVM-III
are just that - fantasy, an escape from the real world. Criminal acts are
a part of human nature. We manage to incorporate crime on a regular basis
by cloaking crime in the romanticism of the roguish thief, the clever
wizard or the avenging fighter. But there is no way to romanticize rape.
The term is an appropriately blunt term for what is a brutal act. I will
grant that it does occur in fantasy worlds (otherwise where would all
those 1/2 orcs come from?), but there is no reason to introduce rape as
such into a campaign. Though the act itself does not change, if it must
be introduced why not allow the players to use their own imagination as
they are allowed to with other things? Why not use a more delicate,
medieaval term such as 'had their way with' or 'stole the virtue of'?
Mike Suzio
>Reading the responses to rape, it's evident that they're written
>largely by men who, though they seem to have given some thought to the
>subject, still equate rape with sex, rather than with power or punishment.
Uhh... No. Ugly women get raped, too. I realize that. Can you point out
anywhere where I've said anything different?
>Justifying the inclusion of direct rape of a PC by saying "those things
>happen(ed)" is highly sexist unless one includes all other types of
>"unpleasant" medieval conditions in their games. Do your male characters
>die of syphilis? Is everyone crawling with fleas and lice? Do you
>routinely cleanse ethinc minorities? How about leprosy in PC's--could be
>an educational role-playing opportunity! All these things really happen!
How is it highly sexist? I acknowledge that homosexual rape happens, too.
Just have not really had any reason to include it in the game yet, but if
my characters ever did get dropped into a prison or something, I'd consider
including it as a threat.
As far as disease, lice, etc. - due to clerical spells, this isn't as big a
factor in most games. I still include it as part of the "flavor", but it
isn't a big deal. Gee, kinda like the one goddamn mention of a rape so far
in this one game out of how many hundreds I've ever GMed? I could (if I
wanted) include some factor that stops rapes in my game world. I choose
not to, because I feel that to do so is not going to come off credibly. I
accept some things as part of the game I play - magic exists, economics are
totally screwy with all this damn gold floating around, etc. I choose not
to introduce too many other assumptions into things.
Get off the soapbox. I've seen some total morons post on this subject, but
most people are pretty reasonable. Re-read the posts if you can, I think
you're jumping to conclusions.
>Get real. This is a fantasy game played for enjoyment. As a long-time
>female player and GM, I can deal with adversity. But I would not tolerate
>a GM that seemed to enjoy delivering it with the glee expressed in some of
>the responses to this subject.
Glee? Yeah, right, whatever. Kind of judgemental here. I certainly hope
that no GM is going to be gleeful about torture, rape, etc. Maybe the
twisted psycho the GM is playing is expected to get off on this, but in
that case you really need to be able to distance yourself from the role. I
don't think I could do it, so I keep these things low-key, but I do
acknowledge their existence. For instance:
The players are being held prisoner by a nefarious villain. One of the
party members (an NPC) has information the villain needs. He is led from
the cell and not returned for several hours... When he is returned, all his
fingernails have been pulled out and he is beaten. There, I have just
committed an extrememly evil act of torture. No glee on my part, and I did
it all off camera so that it was never sensationalized. Maybe if I wanted
it to be really chilling, I would tell players they heard the NPC's
screams.
>I am not surprised that proportionately few women play these
>games--considering the attitudes expressed in recent threads.
You are painting with far too broad a brush here. Most people seem pretty
reasonable on this subject (if we exclude the few sexually immature
people who must have snuck over from AOL) - I know I said that I would
treat this subject very, very differently given a different group of
players. But this holds true for almost anything.
- Mike
PS: I'll acknowledge, however, that it *is* treatments of subjects like sex
that turn off most women from roleplaying. However, I know literally
hundreds of women who learned to love the pursuit once they got to college
and met more mature groups.
Matthew Hickey
>Hmm. Ild like some literature examples. In general, most ;esbian
Meghan Whitlock- Shadow- series, Fifth Millenium shared world
Many of the Renaculates- Darkover Series, written/edited by Marion
Zimmer Bradley
Several short story characters- Sword and Sorceress series (again,
edited by MZB)
>I myself am a little disturbed by the way you put (1). If there is an
>assumption there that nont hetero-sexual feelingsa re nto natural. Ild
>dispute it heavily. That, however, is another flame war, so lets drop
>the subejct except ot say that I disagree with the assertion, if that is
>what it is.
Number one is based on medieval social mores, not my own (and this
is someone who was thought to be for a long time a homosexual). This is how
many beleive homosexuality among women to have started (the 'they' in this
are more often than not hate-inciting religious figures). I dislike this
opinion, but unfortunately it is rather prevalent. What disturbs _me_ about
it is the number of women who hold it to be true and announce it in their
litterature.
>Relating to that, though, i must agree with being disturbed by point (2)
>in that it assumes there is an illness to be cured. I have balck hair.
>I'm not looking for a cure.
I'm left handed, I'm therefore prone to developing psychoses and
dying younger, we're even. :-)
>Speakign of which, and getting back to the earlier point, i understand
>(but please don't ask me for a qwuote right now. if someone REALLy wnats
>one Ill put it on my list of thinsg to look uip cites for) that certain
>early religons actually considred homosexuality as a mark of holiness. The
>shinto are interesting religously with regard to these issues in that part
>of a new emperor's ascendancy to god-hood and the throne is being turned
>into a woman, being impregnated by a god, and giving re-birth to himself.
>Thsi as all accroding ot the newspaper accounts i read at the time of the
>last emperor's ascendancy. It seemd pretty well researched, but its
>always possible they got something wrong (american newspapers being what
>they are these days.) But it certainly gives one a very differnt take on
>religon and sexuality.
This may be an interesting direction to take this discussion, though
I would hate for this to bog down into a flame war over homosexuality.
>I don't think stereo types inhereently limit the charatcer. Quite the
>contrary, they give an easily understood base on which to build. There
>are differences though between literary stero-types, and social ones.
>Someon who played all his female charatcers as ditzy blondes with no
>brains who would screw anything with more then 2 legs (re: male third
>leg) woudl pisss me off as either another player or a Dm REAL fast.
I agree. I have used many stereotypes or anti-stereotypes (taking
the type and changing one single element to make it original) in making
characters, especially NPCs, where the need to have the characters
associate needs to be immediate. I like toying with the types (one of the
reasons I guess, why I liked the short story with the hemaphrodite and the
thief -- I'll look up the title/author/anthology it was in if anybody wants
to read it, it was kind of tongue-in-cheek).
>I myself always play 'good' character types that are oin one way or
>another heroic (even if they don't intend to be). Thats a sterotype in
>of itself, but one I enjoy.
Mine is the opposite, the anti-hero. They are either distasteful or
evil, but they are neccessary and often provide insight into what a real '
evil' individual would think like. Another is the very intelligent,
undersetimated person who hides abilities from other characters. They hide
behind a facade of mediocrity and never reveal their true abilities until no
one is looking.
>Jeff kesselman
- Have you noticed that we average one agreement, and one misunderstanding
per post?
Me
>would offend you, plese skip past it.
>
>
>In article <1994Nov7.1...@njitgw.njit.edu>,>Seems to me I started out this entire discussion by saying as much, and
>have said so numerous times. To recap, it was not until I met my
>wife, that I learned how many OTHER women I knew had such incidents in
>their past.
>
>Indeed it IS personal. It is personal because I number women as well as
>men among my close friends. It is SHOCKING to find out that so many of
>your friends not only share a common trauma, but felt unable to discuss it
>in your presence for fear of a less-then sensitive reaction.
>
>Frankly, I think this is a personal issue to anybody sensitive enough to
>care about other people's feelings.
>
>What's YOUR point?
>
>>Is the figure 3 out of 5
>>women are actually raped as in forced sexual intercourse or 3 out of 5
>>women are sexually assaulted?
>>
>
>then intercourse would be rather offended at your suggestion that they
>thus had not been raped.
>
>Having said that, I think the number reflects reasonably prolonged and
>intimate forced-sexual contact. As exampels, I don't think it includes some
>having her ass grabbed, though this is still an indignity one human
>being should not be inflicting on another unless it is clearly wanted
>attention. I suspect it does, however, include forced oral sex. Since
>it came from the Maidson, Wi police, it might be worth looking up the
>legal definition of rape in Wisconsin, if you really want a complete answer.
>
>At this point, i have to ask a question, Matt.
>
>You have, in succession, i believe:
> 1) Tried to argue that more men get raped them women due to
> prision incidents.
I never stated that. The only thing I stated about men is that they can get
raped in my game too.
> 2) Questioned the origin of the 3 otu of 5 number.
Because I can't believe its that high.
And I tend to doubt statistics. Any statistical figure that someone usually
provides is based on a sample population. I don't know what those samples
are or the size of the samples.
> 3) Apparently treid to make some kind of issue out of the
> fact that I have indirect actuall experience with this
> subject.
That fact gives me information about how to interpret what you are posting.
> 4) Tried to nit-pick with the definition of rape as defined
> by the above mentioend number.
See above.
>
>I have to ask why do you find this concept, that women ARE being raped in
>scary numbers in our society, so threatening?
I don't find it personally threatening. I just can't believe its that high.
--
Me
>In article <1994Nov8.1...@njitgw.njit.edu>, msh...@hertz.njit.edu
>(Me) wrote:
>
>> In article <39m0hu$8...@st-james.comp.vuw.ac.nz> mdl...@lhn.gns.cri.nz writes:
>> >>The DM's primary job is to manage the world in a fair and consistent
>manner.
>> >>Therefore if it was logical and consistent for a PC to be raped it is not
>> >>the DM's fault that it happened.
>> >
>> >
>> >Disagree entirely. The GMs job primary job is providing an enjoyable night
>> >for the party. Well getting killed isnt fun but sometimes it happens and
>>
>> And he does that by managing the world in a fair and consistent manner. I as
>> a DM feel I would be doing my players a disservice by cheating of them
>> of the fair, consistent and logical events that would occur in the world
>> around them.
>
>Whether or not you agree with the "DM as a manager only" style of play, it
>IS possible for the DM to be the controller too. I think that most of the
>people who have written so far would object to that kind of DMing, but
>that is one case where it definitely would be the DM's fault.
I disagree.
>
>I have thought of a situation, however, where not only should the DM be a
>controller, but nasty things like rape and torture should NEVER be allowed
>to happen to PCs: when first teaching children how to play.
Ah.
I agree with that. Actually I would say that rape at least should not
involved when teaching adults or anyone else how to play.
Which leads me to something I should say about my game to put my
comments into context.
I don't teach people how to play.
I expect people to have at least 2 years of experience before they
can play in my game.
I let them know my DMing style. Someone would not be surprised
if a rape occurred.
Me
>Jeff Kesselman (jef...@netcom.com) wrote:
>
>
>Sexist? In what way, exactly? That seems to be a popular catchword,
>rather the modern-day "supercalafragalisticexpialodocious"; say it for
>any occassion.
>
>: Do your male characters
>: die of syphilis?
>
>No, they usually get a Cure Disease cast, and then they're fine, same as the
>females.
>
>: Is everyone crawling with fleas and lice?
>
>Depending on the campaign: Ars Magica, with an authentic medieval
>setting, absolutely. AD&D, there's spells to clean up that sort of thing.
>
>
>Once again, Cure Disease works wonders. In a more realistric campaign,
There is not enough priests to clean up every disease in the world. In
addition, priests might have other priorities besides running around
curing diseases. Some religions might even say its natural to have
diseases and not do anything about it.
cli...@carleton.edu
>
> You know the strange thing about this thread is there are alot of men
> saying what should and should happen and how they roleplayed women. There
> have been no female opinions in this thread whatsoever.
> --
Well, few statements at any rate. I was wondering when someone would notice! ;)
Here is my take on things:
I'm not sure quite how to react to this thread. To give some background: I've
been a female gamer for the past 13 or so years, playing and game-mastering the
gamut from T$R's stuff to Over The Edge. I tend to play and run games with a
strong emphasis on RP and "internally consistent" worlds that are modeled as
realisitcally as I can, given certain principles (ie. the existence of magic).
I can accept (to a limited degree) that rape situations are "real"; rape is a
crime based on power and power politics almost universally exist. I can
understand that for some players and GMs, rape helps provide them a certain
"grittiness" to the campaign. However, I don't think that I would currently
attempt to judge a rape situation, and I tend to doubt that I ever will.
First, I know with the current group of players that I tend to run include
among them two people who have experienced sexual assault in the past (one
male, one female). [I have never polled everyone as to whether or not they
have ever been assaulted. That would be rude.] One of them is still in the
process of "exorcising" that demon. It would be cruel to force them to deal
with or roleplay through a rape situation *regardless of whether or not it was
their character being raped*. And even if I were playing with a new group of
players, I would try to avoid putting people through a situation that would
deliberately evoke some pretty painful memories.
Second, while role-playing a character who has been raped is indeed
challenging, I don't think I would ever ask that of a player of mine. A victim
of rape goes through some pretty severe emotional and psychological trauma, and
to role-play that accurately would be pretty draining and potentially damaging
to the person. I prefer to think that both my players and I can be more
creative than that -- that we don't need to resort to using the character
development equivalent of a heavy club to get something interesting going.
I know that as far as personal, "gut" reactions to the thread have gone, after
I read through a slew of posts for the first time, I went into a kind of state
of shock. Partially at how lightly some people treated this subject and at how
few women (it seems) felt okay about responding too this. Maybe it's because
it will be percieved of as being "whiny" or "politically correct" (in the
original sense of the word). Maybe it's because for some of them, it strikes
too close to home. I refuse to let the fear of rape or assault rule my life,
but I'm not blind to it's existence either. As much as a rape situation
*might* "improve" my game, I'd prefer to try other, non-painful methods first.
- C. Liang
Mike Suzio
>It seems to me that one of the reasons we play fantasy games is that they
>are just that - fantasy, an escape from the real world. Criminal acts are
Yes, for some people that's the major motivation. For me, and my players,
it's a little different. We like the fantasy, but we also like the
aspect of working through situations that although they are not
fantastic, might be things we just don't work through in real-life.
>a part of human nature. We manage to incorporate crime on a regular basis
>by cloaking crime in the romanticism of the roguish thief, the clever
>wizard or the avenging fighter. But there is no way to romanticize rape.
Very correct. Any attempt to do so is a poor misrepresentation of
a very serious matter.
>The term is an appropriately blunt term for what is a brutal act. I will
>grant that it does occur in fantasy worlds (otherwise where would all
>those 1/2 orcs come from?), but there is no reason to introduce rape as
>such into a campaign. Though the act itself does not change, if it must
>be introduced why not allow the players to use their own imagination as
>they are allowed to with other things? Why not use a more delicate,
>medieaval term such as 'had their way with' or 'stole the virtue of'?
BEcause using a delicate term *is* romanticizing rape. See, some of us
like a much grimmer kind of game. That's neither better nor worse than any
other gaming style - it's just what we like. My group is big on Cyberpunk,
Top Secret, and Call of Cthulu. After playing in those games, we don't
have as much of a desire to play high fantasy. This is why I run my game
in Greyhawk after the Greyhawk Wars - it's a somewhat grimmer place, but
there is hope for good to win out over evil. My players are all basically
good - so I want them to confront evil, both on a large scale and on a more
personal level.
This is why I thought it was OK to include an off-camera rape scene. I'm
going to present the results of this in as disturbing a manner as I can - I
want to make my characters mad, I want them to loose composure. If they can
win out over this kind of thing, and try to help the victims heal
themselves, they have shown themselves to be heroes in a much more
significant way than just killing some big bad orcs.
Enough said. I've reiterated my points countless times. All I'll say in
closing is, this is definately a sensitive issue. GMs need to know that
their players can handle it. If you don't like it in your game, don't use
it - I'm not going to say "if you can't handle it, you suck". All I hope
is that by discussing this, people have been made to do a little thinking
on the issue (in game and in the real world) and that we've all learned a
little.
Me
The language with which one refers to it has no bearing on whether or not
it should exist in a game, which is what this thread is about.
On the issue of language however, I think terms should be used which
would express the true feelings that such an act would have on the
victim and his/her society.
Terms like ravaged, assaulted, brutalized are more appropriate than the
gentle terms suggested above.
Barbara Haddad
There was a big tough fighter who never [ever!] bathed. A few days after
a big fight, he noticed that some of his unhealed wounds were a little
'funny', so he went to the party healer and asked to get fixed up.
The healer had him strip off the filthy, bug-ridden armor/clothes
and gagged. (He also noticed the wounds were almost gangrenous. He went
and got the REST of the group who held the guy down, scrubbed him clean,
excized some of the worst of the damaged skin, burned his clothes,
cleaned the armor and gave him a bitg LONG lecture on hygene.
The fighter grumbled, got a new set of clothes and began washing to
keep from having to go thru the ordeal of cleanliness again. ;)
------------------------------------------------------------------
Barbara Haddad - mel...@shakala.com
Shakala BBS (ClanZen Radio Network) Sunnyvale, CA +1-408-734-2289
Jeff Kesselman
Me <msh...@hertz.njit.edu> wrote:
>
>The language with which one refers to it has no bearing on whether or not
>it should exist in a game, which is what this thread is about.
>
I've decided that I, too, have said all Ican say reasonably on thsi issue
and am pulling back. I woudl like to make a correction, though, as
someone who was invovled with starting this thread. The original attempt
was not a black and whoite 'shoudl it exist in the game' but a braoder
'how should it be handled, it at all, in the game'. My own position is
that dealign with delicate issues can be a growing experience for the
players, but as oen of the most delicate issues,m and potentially most
troubling to a far % of the potential numebr fo gamers, it has to be
handle EXTERAMELY maturely if it is to be addressed.
It is, in many ways easier, Ill admit, just to wipe it out of your world.
The only answer to the question which IMO is WRONG is the juvenile-- 'hey
it happens get used to it' or worse that we've all seen in games we've at
least watched if not played, and seen crop up a ew times in this thread.
ALSO IMO, by the way, the immediate cry of sexism if one tries to address
the issue that we've ALSO seen crop up is not much more helpful in terms
of edcuating people to the real problmes and issues involved.
'Nuff said.
Jeff Kesselman
"I'm shut-uping, oh yes, I'm certainly shutting-up, some people go right
on talking, but not me! I'm shutting up this instant, you won't hear one
more peep out of me..."
Buggs Bunny
CARLA WILLISTON
>grant that it does occur in fantasy worlds (otherwise where would all
>those 1/2 orcs come from?), but there is no reason to introduce rape as
What is all this I've seen posted about 'where did half <insert
generally considered to be ugly and gross monster here>'s come from?' Maybe
there are people out there that don't just go for cute little blonde elfies.
One of my characters personally has a bit of an affinity, nay, an attraction
to lizardmen. They are not generally considered prime stud material, but my
character likes them, that's her personality. Maybe a lonely male fighter
came across an ogre/orc/whatever woman, and decided he kind of liked her.
(maybe he was drunk, but maybe not). Also, with drow allowed to be 'good',
whos to say an ork can't be good, and meet up with some lady humanoid that
he likes, and a mutual (child) relationship comes out of it. The product of
two races (species?) doesn't have to be formed of rape, maybe there is an
emotional bond between the parents. It'd certainly make an interesting
adventure piece.
=`@_@'= The Felinish One 014...@axe.acadiau.ca
CHRIS PALMER
-> manner. Therefore if it was logical and consistent for a PC to be
-> raped it is not the DM's fault that it happened.
I always thought that it was a DM's job to run a *fun* world.
If the players could handle rape, then the DM should keep the possibiliy
in mind. If, however, a DM is running a game with his little brother
and friends, then rape should be out of the question no matter how
"logical" it seems. IMHO, of course, but a DM shouldn't always be
perfectly fair, if it runs the risk of ruining the players (long term)
enjoyment.
Chris
CHAINS
> In article <jeffpkCy...@netcom.com>,
> Jeff Kesselman <jef...@netcom.com> wrote:
> >At risk of stating a ::gasp:: politicly incorrect statement. I honestly
> >thin kto say that rape has nothing to do with sex, at least wehn
> >perpetrated by males, is to not-understand the male sexual response.
> >Points of fact, whether we liek it or not
>
> Sorry, but I must jump in here. The statement that rape has "nothing to
> do with sex" is hogwash, indeed; social theorticians are beginning to
> acknowledge that it obviously DOES have something to do with sex (yeah, I
> know, "no shit").
>
> >The male is pre-programmed to seek out as many partners as possible.
> >thsi makes biological sense in terms of giving ones DNA this best chnace
> >of survivng onto the next generation.
>
> This sociobiological explanation is not supported by all (although, I
> tend to agree with it myself).
>
> >But the statement that 'rape is not sexual' is about as much a myth as
> >the statement that 'women ask for it'. It is very often sexual in the
> >sense that the rapist derives sexual satisfaction from the act. It
> >certainly is NOT loving, caring, or any of the other wonderful things
> >that go along with a consensual, caring sexual relationship
Yeah, O.K. rape is not about loving, caring, or any of the other wonderful
things that go along with a consensual, caring sexual relationship.
Rape, my friends, is about power.
Peace,
Chained
>
> True.
>
> JOHN
>
> --
> * John M. Martz: Psychology Dept, UNC-CH * *
> | CB# 3270, Davie Hall | B = f(P,E) |
> | Chapel Hill, NC 27599 | --Kurt Lewin |
> * JOHN_...@UNC.EDU * *
>
>
##################sig#####################
Of all the gin-joints in the world, why'd
she have to bring her fat @$$ into mine?!?
verkuilen john v
>In short, it is all up to the gamemaster to decide. I just advacate NOT
>throwing out something you find distasteful. It might be useful.
I wholeheartedly agree. Unpleasant things (rape, murder, horrible diseases,
etc.) happening to characters is the stuff of drama--just look at the stupid
made-for-TV movies out there. Anyway, you the GM can still use such unpleasant
things even if you are strongly revolted by them and do not want to have PCs
suffer the fate (particularly in the case of rape, which seems a lot more
touchy than the to be expected death of a pc). You need to decide how
_graphic_ you want such elements to be--sometimes allusion is a better
device than blatant graphic detail. Sometimes not. The level of "tough"
subjects you consider in your campaign really depends on how much you and
your players are willing to accept. I have never had a PC raped (male or
female), but I do recall that recently a very important NPC was nearly
raped by some githyanki--these same githyanki drove her cousin insane as
well (note that they were both basically children). Githyanki are very
definitely _not_ supposed to be nice, "clean" villains. Of course, she wasn't
raped and there have been attempts at restoring her cousin's sanity (not yet
successful), but these heavy issues were considered. I think that the real
problems come in when difficult issues are treated in a cavalier and
trivial way ("oh, she was raped, but she'll get over it") rather than a serious
one. If the general tone of the campaign allows for some seriousness then
they can work well. If not, the players probably aren't expecting serious
issues and very well might be shocked or angered. Shock may be OK if you
trust you won't shock your players too much, but be warned.
I also run a Warhammer game, in which a dark tone is not just encouraged,
it's expected! So far this time, the characters have adventured three
times and two have nearly died of infected wounds, one is well on his way to
an insanity disorder, and another nearly drank a potion of a serious mutagen
that would have not left him quite ... whole. combat is also a lot more
viscious and nasty, not Conanesque like most AD&D.
W. Brent Williams
: There is not enough priests to clean up every disease in the world. In
: addition, priests might have other priorities besides running around
: curing diseases. Some religions might even say its natural to have
: diseases and not do anything about it.
This is sort of a follow-up to the rape question in general, as well as a
response to the post I'm following up from.
I, for one, would not want the rape to be taken from the game. To have the
gods intervene in every case of rape would be ludicrus. Not only that, but
to avenge a rape is a POSSIBLE plot hook for a female character to start
adventuring, as well as a male character.
As for diseases like syphilus and the like, the range of a cure disease spell
is touch. Now, role-play this... How do you get a Priest to touch you...
THERE? Money, of course. Hence, the disease is left untreated(make the preist
REALLY squimish), and the rapist (or, fornicator) dies. In other words, it is
YOUR world, so divine intervention and magic do not have to be everyday
occurences, NOR a universal panacea.
Also, if a god doesn't like what someone did, they don't necessarily kill them.
Sometime, makeing someones life a living H*** is better avengement. Besides,
that always leaves an opportunity for a convert to that god's faith. (If
anything, to have the disease removed).
But that also leads to the other side, where the god is evil(or, rather, vile),
and sanctifies rape as a form of worship. His priests would cure said diseases
(for LOTS of money, or a convertment). Another enticement for good characters
to attack them. Maybe they keep sex slaves. Who knows, it's up to the
gamemaster.
But remeber, then that a god that ISN'T vile will have his priesthood
constantly waring with the vile gods' priesthood.
Jason Scott Williams
only mention rape if a mixed raced PC wanted his background to contain
such or to describe a villian as a rapist.
I can see how some groups could handle a PC rape and how it would be
inappropriate for others. But in the end there is nothing wrong with
getting away from issues in the real world. Some people like to have a
place to go where they don't have to deal with the same things they might
in real life.
But when in comes to playing and Dming ad&d, no one is wrong.
Loutha Esq.
Truls Parsson
>Yeah, O.K. rape is not about loving, caring, or any of the other wonderful
>things that go along with a consensual, caring sexual relationship.
>Rape, my friends, is about power.
No, rape is about SEX and power.
Do not confuse love with sex nor sex with a sexual relationship.
The prime motives for rape are sex and power.
-The Troll (a.k.a Truls Pärsson)
a92...@zipi.fi.upm.es
deal with the results of their acts.
I am a master of Shadow Mutants, a spanish game, and also play
AD&D, and my players r ... well ... a little hot about sex ( although they
havent still raped anybody).
If they would do it, police would be following them, and they would have more
problems than usual ( u know, the adventure is normally enought for them).
So just be logical about it, a rape alwais deserve a punish (maybe the raped
girl have a 15th level warrior brother?).
Go for it!!!
Master of bits.
Chris Bourne
scum...@panix.com "Scuminus Dregg" writes:
> Jeff Kesselman (jef...@netcom.com) wrote:
>
> : At risk of stating a ::gasp:: politicly incorrect statement. I honestly
> : thin kto say that rape has nothing to do with sex, at least wehn
> : perpetrated by males, is to not-understand the male sexual response.
[snip - stuff about testosterone, aggression and movies]
>
> : But the statement that 'rape is not sexual' is about as much a myth as
> : the statement that 'women ask for it'. It is very often sexual in the
> : sense that the rapist derives sexual satisfaction from the act. It
>
> I've said as much in a previous, similar thread. Rape is sexual; I know
> from the above-mentioned sexual response. If it *weren't* sexual, people
> wouldn't find it titillating enough to make into TV movies, etc. Telling
> people "It's not about the feeling you feel, no matter what you feel,
> trust me," is silly and illogical.
I think there's a further distinction to be made.
Sex is sexual, and therefore the means by which the rapist expresses his
aggression/alienation is sexual, because he expresses it through a sexual
act. But what makes it rape, rather than sex, is not a sexual act, but an
act of violent agression.
That is, rape is not sexual in itself. It is the violence or threat of
violence in pursuit of a sexual act which defines it.
Further, while watching or reading about depictions of rape may titillate,
that does not mean the act itself is primarily sexual, nor that it is the
rape itself which titillates, but the sexual act which takes place as a
result. I think film of a REAL rape would not be found so generally
titillating. Gratuitous rape scenes in movies are not playing on the
sexual high of 'rape' as such, but on submission/dominance fantasies which
have a rather wider constituency...
As for realism in mediaeval settings, it IS potentially sexist to pick out
one unpleasant aspect - rape - and not others. Of course there are spells
to cure diseases...but that's no excuse. There are spells to deal with rape
as well - charm person, hold person, sleep, not to mention burning hands :)
DM's or players contemplating he inclusion of such emotive subjects in a
game could consider:
A) Why do you want to include it? Be honest. Because it is 'spicy', 'fun',
'cool', 'exciting'? Or because it is necessary to the credibility of
the campaign? If the former, you may be in danger of desensitising yourself
to an important real-world issue...you may need to think about what you
are doing a little more.
B) Are any of your players likely to be upset by the inclusion of rape in
your game AS PLAYERS? The experience of rape and related experiences such
as child abuse is something many people keep secret because it hurts to
bring it out in the open. I would always leave it to my players to
decide how graphic and near-the-bone they want the violent aspects of
the game to be, and take my cue from the way they express themselves when
in character. I have my sticking points on these things, and I think it
is only polite to respect the likely or expressed sticking points of
my players.
--
Chris Bourne
Miri Ravan
Okay, I just finished reading a post that said no female opinions have
come into this thread, so here I am. I've been playing DragonQuest for
about seven years now, and rape has come up maybe 2 or 3 times in our
campaign. The first time our GM (now ex-GM, who was and is in need of
counseling) threatened one of my characters, and actually had one of his
NPCs raped by NPC captors. It was all very low key and innuendo-laden.
His (the GM's) position seemed to be "well, it's what would have
happened, so . . ." Well, maybe. However, there happened to be a rape
survivor in our group at that time, who responded (understandably) *very*
badly to the whole thing. The GM got reamed by her and everyone else in
the group, and though he continued to be basically insensitive in his
treatment of female characters and NPCs, he never tried to have anybody
raped again, which is just fine with me. The other instance I remember
involved my own (favorite) character. She basically made a stupid
decision and ended up drugged and gang-raped. Now, I'm perfectly able to
differentiate between fantasy and reality, but to have my character, the
person I, in some sense was, assaulted was very distressing. It may be
realistic. It may be true-to-life and add verisimilitude to the game.
It may seem like a fine opportunity to explore your character and really
get into role-playing. But I happen to play fantasy games for fun, to
escape for a little while from some of the nastier, dirtier, uglier, more
depressing aspects of "real life." Yes, rape happens. A lot. No, I
don't want to play a game where it happens to characters I (or my fellow
players) have spent a great deal of time and attention on. There's only so
much reality I'm prepared to deal with in my fantasy.
As to the question of whose "fault" rape in a game is, I think it depends
on who's doing the rape, who controls the rapist. If GM-controlled NPCs
are the rapists, then it seems pretty clear that the GM is at fault. If
PCs are raping other PCs (or NPCs for that matter) then the player in
question is at fault. Arguably, in such a case, the GM may be complicit.
Sorry if this sounds like a rant or a flame. I just wanted to put in my
$.02.
--
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
"One thing is certain, and the Rest is lies; The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam
The Flower that once has blown for ever dies."--Edward Fitzgerald //////////
//////////////////////////cham...@ucs.orst.edu/////////////////////////////
Invasion Control Force
> It seems to me that one of the reasons we play fantasy games is that they
> are just that - fantasy, an escape from the real world. Criminal acts are
> (otherwise where would all
> those 1/2 orcs come from?),
Do you really want me to answer that?
Mike
>
>
>
U58...@uicvm.uic.edu
an oversized butcher knife, when it comes to gaming? Villains, generally
speaking, tend to be _evil_ after all, torturing and maiming, killing and
looting, and every once in a while one of them is just close enough to human
to try rape as an added specialty. While finding someone in the group has a
previous experience that makes the subject painful is certainly a good reason
to drop it, I presume that there are people out there who have been knifed, or
lost their parents in a fire, or almost drowned, or whatever, that there are
quite a few potential painful subjects that could come up in a game that does
not receive a "G" rating for violence.
Though, incidentally, a truly G-rated role-playing game can sometimes be the
most fun of all. There's more to life than cutting each other up!
IO0...@maine.maine.edu
negative stigma attached to a victim in a rape that isn't
there in a victim of a knife attack. Especially if the rape
victim is male and was raped by a male.