2nd Edition Flame Arrow Spell Clarification
Socrates1
edition Player's Handbook (p.149). The spell has 2 uses-- it's the
second one which concerns me. The description states "this spell
enables the caster to hurl fiery bolts at opponents within range."
Does the word "hurl" imply that a THAC0 roll is needed? Or is the
target automatically hit? This is not clearly stated anywhere in the
description. No mention of a "to hit" roll is made. Other spells--
like Melf's Minute Meteors-- that also use the word "hurl" clearly
and specifically specify a THAC0 roll is needed.
The only thing else in the spell description that might be relevant
is that the description does specify that the bolts must used on
creatures within 20 yards of each other. If you have to roll THAC0,
why are you limited on target selection?
red...@delphi.com
>I want opinions on the 3rd level Flame Arrow spell from the 2nd
>edition Player's Handbook (p.149). The spell has 2 uses-- it's the
>second one which concerns me. The description states "this spell
>enables the caster to hurl fiery bolts at opponents within range."
>Does the word "hurl" imply that a THAC0 roll is needed? Or is the
>target automatically hit? This is not clearly stated anywhere in the
>description. No mention of a "to hit" roll is made. Other spells--
>like Melf's Minute Meteors-- that also use the word "hurl" clearly
>and specifically specify a THAC0 roll is needed.
the following would have to apply:
1) The spell is auto-hit. The problem with this is that there is no
saving throw vs. this spell, but you could make it this way anyways.
2) The wizard makes an attack as a proficient fighter of his level. IE,
a "to hit" roll is required, minus an defenses the targets have, and
the wizard uses the warrior THAC0. One question would be whether to
make one attack roll per missle, or per target.
3) Make an attack with the wizard THAC0 - not really a good choice,
as it greatly reduces the power of the spell.
4) Make the spell auto-hit, but give the target a saving throw, either
to avoid all damage, or for half-damage.
I think that I chose option 2, with one attack roll per target.
Darren
.. When the DM smiles, its too late.
John Hiser
>Socrates1 <socr...@aol.com> writes:
>
>>I want opinions on the 3rd level Flame Arrow spell from the 2nd
>>edition Player's Handbook (p.149). The spell has 2 uses-- it's the
>>second one which concerns me. The description states "this spell
>>enables the caster to hurl fiery bolts at opponents within range."
>>Does the word "hurl" imply that a THAC0 roll is needed? Or is the
>>target automatically hit? This is not clearly stated anywhere in the
>>description. No mention of a "to hit" roll is made. Other spells--
>>like Melf's Minute Meteors-- that also use the word "hurl" clearly
>>and specifically specify a THAC0 roll is needed.
>
>Given the lack of clarification in the book, I would think that one of
>the following would have to apply:
>
>1) The spell is auto-hit. The problem with this is that there is no
> saving throw vs. this spell, but you could make it this way anyways.
>
The spell heading claims there is no saving throw, but if you
read further it says;
"Each bolt inflicts 1D6 points of piercing damage, plus 4D6 points
of fire damage. Only half of the fire damage is inflicted if the creature
struck saves vs. spell."
From personal experience, allowing this spell to be used as Magic
Missile (automatic hit) is very powerful for 5-6th level casters but not
for 8-9th level (just before you get the second one). Essentially, it is
a targeted Fireball for the lower levels (Nice thing to use in enclosed
spaces).
I would probably allow automatic hits but would make getting the
spell difficult. If one decided to force a roll to hit, perhaps it would
not be unreasonable for the mage to roll as if he were a fighter of the
same level...
-John
Surrey
: I want opinions on the 3rd level Flame Arrow spell from the 2nd
: edition Player's Handbook (p.149). The spell has 2 uses-- it's the
: second one which concerns me. The description states "this spell
: enables the caster to hurl fiery bolts at opponents within range."
: Does the word "hurl" imply that a THAC0 roll is needed? Or is the
: target automatically hit? This is not clearly stated anywhere in the
Well my opinion is that it automatically hits (it doesn't say to roll to
hit). After all it is on the same level as fire ball and lightning bolt,
both of which don't require a hit roll. The flame arrow spell can be viewed
as an advanced form of magic missile, or a controlled version of fire ball,
depending on which you like best. (BTW: at 20th level the flame arrow spell
can do upto 20d6 damage on a single target... I like, I like.)
--
/______________________ ______________________\
{####-______________________ >< ______________________-####}
\ /
| Surrey "Furry Animals" Hughes |
Axl
>
>3) Make an attack with the wizard THAC0 - not really a good choice,
> as it greatly reduces the power of the spell.
>
This brings to mind two things that I have been wondering for
awhile.
First off, my DM would have me make a normal wizard's thac0
roll when casting lightning bolt or fireball to see if it hit. Is
this how it should be? I had very low sucess rate with these spells.
Second...one time on a lightning bolt casting, I rolled a 20,
which my DM interprets as a critical hit...missile attacks with a 20
are scored as 'dead center.' Well, I cast this at a tightly packed
formation of elven warriors that were charging towards our anchored
boat. (I rolled nearly max damage too..my lucky day :) ) Hit em dead
center, and the DM tallied a death toll of about 400!
Other people I have told this story to have argued that the DM
grossly miscalculated, saying that that spell could never kill that
many in one hit. I'm just wondering, would it have been possible, or
no?
--
From the often twisted & deviant mind of: j_he...@oz.plymouth.edu
-Axl @)-->--- http://www.plymouth.edu/~jay/ j...@wiz.plymouth.edu
"In Christianity neither morality nor a...@csos.orst.edu
religion comes into contact with reality at any point." - Nietzsche
Barbara Haddad
> >edition Player's Handbook (p.149). The spell has 2 uses-- it's the
> >second one which concerns me. The description states "this spell
> >enables the caster to hurl fiery bolts at opponents within range."
> >Does the word "hurl" imply that a THAC0 roll is needed? Or is the
> >target automatically hit? This is not clearly stated anywhere in the
> >description. No mention of a "to hit" roll is made. Other spells--
> >like Melf's Minute Meteors-- that also use the word "hurl" clearly
> >and specifically specify a THAC0 roll is needed.
>
Then they were sloppy. :) (this is a surprise?) The way I do it
is use the mage's THACO plus any missile bonus (& no penalty for range)
and use the 'grenade missile' table for any misses to see if it still
lands close enough to deliver some damage. But it's pretty much a
referee call at that point. :)
------------------------------------------------------------------
Barbara Haddad - mel...@shakala.com
Shakala BBS (ClanZen Radio Network) Sunnyvale, CA +1-408-734-2289
RICHARD KENAN
: First off, my DM would have me make a normal wizard's thac0
: roll when casting lightning bolt or fireball to see if it hit. Is
: this how it should be? I had very low sucess rate with these spells.
No, not in standard AD&D. Of course, your DM can make his own
rules, but if I had a mage with fireball, and a DM made ME roll
to hit, he'd be finding him another player. Fireball is an area
effect spell that encompasses a pretty large volume. There's no
rational reason why a casting that was even remotely on target
shouldn't fill more-or-less the area you intended. And anyway,
although my PHB is missing at the moment, the saving throw your
victims get is to avoid, dodge, or shield themselves from some
or all of the effects of the spell (well, not all, it's a half
damage saving throw, but...).
: Second...one time on a lightning bolt casting, I rolled a 20,
: which my DM interprets as a critical hit...missile attacks with a 20
: are scored as 'dead center.' Well, I cast this at a tightly packed
: formation of elven warriors that were charging towards our anchored
: boat. (I rolled nearly max damage too..my lucky day :) ) Hit em dead
: center, and the DM tallied a death toll of about 400!
: Other people I have told this story to have argued that the DM
: grossly miscalculated, saying that that spell could never kill that
: many in one hit. I'm just wondering, would it have been possible, or
: no?
Not (again) in standard AD&D. There's no way a lightning bolt
could HIT enough people. I forget the exact dimensions, but it
would NOT be an effective combat formation if they were packed
in there close enough for the bolt to hit 400 people. I'd say
your DM is taking some liberties with the rules, since lightning
bolt is not supposed to require to hit throws either, and crits
aren't part of the standard AD&D package, although there's some
pretty nice optional rules for them in the DMG (I think it's
there, I'd have to go look, though).
--
Richard Kenan
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{allegra,amd,hplabs,ut-ngp}!gatech!prism!eefacdk
Internet: eef...@prism.gatech.edu
dk...@cas.org
>Axl (j_he...@oz.plymouth.edu) wrote:
>: First off, my DM would have me make a normal wizard's thac0
>: roll when casting lightning bolt or fireball to see if it hit. Is
>: this how it should be? I had very low sucess rate with these spells.
>
>No, not in standard AD&D. Of course, your DM can make his own
>rules, but if I had a mage with fireball, and a DM made ME roll
>to hit, he'd be finding him another player. Fireball is an area
>effect spell that encompasses a pretty large volume. There's no
>rational reason why a casting that was even remotely on target
>shouldn't fill more-or-less the area you intended. And anyway,
>although my PHB is missing at the moment, the saving throw your
>victims get is to avoid, dodge, or shield themselves from some
>or all of the effects of the spell (well, not all, it's a half
>damage saving throw, but...).
This is correct.
>: Second...one time on a lightning bolt casting, I rolled a 20,
>: which my DM interprets as a critical hit...missile attacks with a 20
>: are scored as 'dead center.' Well, I cast this at a tightly packed
>: formation of elven warriors that were charging towards our anchored
>: boat. (I rolled nearly max damage too..my lucky day :) ) Hit em dead
>: center, and the DM tallied a death toll of about 400!
>: Other people I have told this story to have argued that the DM
>: grossly miscalculated, saying that that spell could never kill that
>: many in one hit. I'm just wondering, would it have been possible, or
>: no?
>
>Not (again) in standard AD&D. There's no way a lightning bolt
>could HIT enough people. I forget the exact dimensions, but it
>would NOT be an effective combat formation if they were packed
>in there close enough for the bolt to hit 400 people. I'd say
>your DM is taking some liberties with the rules, since lightning
>bolt is not supposed to require to hit throws either, and crits
>aren't part of the standard AD&D package, although there's some
>pretty nice optional rules for them in the DMG (I think it's
>there, I'd have to go look, though).
This is correct also, 400 people is way to many. In most of the
ancients materials I have read they quote the space required for
a close order infantry person to be 2'x2'. So if the elves were
packed in close formation and in a column that was straight (i.e.,
not snaking) and you chose the size of the bolt to be 5'x80', then
the most troops you could expect to effect would be 3x40 or 120.
These are a lot of ifs and most (99.9%) of the time you will affect
far less than the 120 troops listed above.
As always any opinions I may have written above are mine and mine alone.
Dave.
Axl
>This is correct also, 400 people is way to many. In most of the
>ancients materials I have read they quote the space required for
>a close order infantry person to be 2'x2'. So if the elves were
>packed in close formation and in a column that was straight (i.e.,
>not snaking) and you chose the size of the bolt to be 5'x80', then
>the most troops you could expect to effect would be 3x40 or 120.
>
>These are a lot of ifs and most (99.9%) of the time you will affect
>far less than the 120 troops listed above.
>
Yea, that's waht I kinda figured at the time too...knocking
off a 100 or so of them would have been the max I expected, but I
didn't wanna bring it up at the time, since that lucky lightning
strike saved are butts. :)
For those that're interested...the short version:
Party hired onto pirate ship, work as backup protection.
Captain anchors in a small cove, leaves to pick up 'an important
object.' Comes back an hour later with about and 700-800 strong elven
army on his heels. When they're in range I ley fly the bolt...crispy
critters. (Later found out Captain stole a silver dragon's egg)
Oops... :)
-axl
Greg Dinkelman
: Socrates1 <socr...@aol.com> writes:
:
: >I want opinions on the 3rd level Flame Arrow spell from the 2nd
: 4) Make the spell auto-hit, but give the target a saving throw, either
: to avoid all damage, or for half-damage.
There already is a save for half-damage against the fire damage.
Greg
red...@delphi.com
> The spell heading claims there is no saving throw, but if you
>read further it says;
>
> "Each bolt inflicts 1D6 points of piercing damage, plus 4D6 points
>of fire damage. Only half of the fire damage is inflicted if the creature
>struck saves vs. spell."
let my players know!!
Darren
.. Rule #1: The DM is always right. If DM is wrong, see Rule #1.