Hitler's alignment
Kelly Pedersen
everyone would judge Hitler's alignment. I know
he's evil (please, please, please, no arguments
over that!!!) But what kind of evil? I can make a
case for lawful (dictatorial, ridgid, etc), and
chaotic (nuts, irrational behavior and theories,
etc.) I am leaning more toward lawful, but those
chaotic traits bother me. Would that make Hitler
Neutral Evil? Responses, please.
Andy Baker
Kelly Pedersen <Kelly_p...@yahoo.com> wrote in article
<36B0B2F4...@yahoo.com>...
If I had to make the decision I'd lean toward lawful. I'm not a history
expert by any means, but I'm a firm believer that you don't have to be
chaotic to be crazy. Megalomaniacs and their ilk often fit closely with the
lawful sort of paradigm. Without getting into the messy comparisons of
Nazism, Socialism, Communism, and all the other ism's that have been beaten
to death in this group, I personally would go with lawful evil.
Odwyn Quickfeet
evil tendencies..he'd be in danger of slipping..if he slipped deeper into
madness he'd drop to chaotic evil...
ba...@digital-marketplace.net
>
> This is an important question. I need to know how
> everyone would judge Hitler's alignment. I know
> he's evil (please, please, please, no arguments
> over that!!!) But what kind of evil? I can make a
> case for lawful (dictatorial, ridgid, etc), and
> chaotic (nuts, irrational behavior and theories,
> etc.) I am leaning more toward lawful, but those
> chaotic traits bother me. Would that make Hitler
> Neutral Evil? Responses, please.
I do wonder why you limit the debate to having to be Evil aligned, I am
more interested in why this is so important to you, considering the man
is dead 50 years. Posts a few thoughts for consideration.
The man like many went though many changes in his life.
Indeed history well knows evil acts committed under his rule.
In the climb to power, the seeking for the glory and good of a defeated
country could have been considered good. A big boast to his power was
when those that controled the politics thought that they could use him
to maintain control, well having a spokesman for the embattled
citizens. A review of historical records IMO indicates that Hitler was
always chaotic, from service in the army, to his belief and relience of
odd chances, indeed he did help bring a rule of law to the land that
was different then before, that in some ways helped and then later
harmed the body politic.
Though his life again IMO he was CN, CG before ending his life as
CE. A more indepth look at his life, can find at times that his was
Nx and even Lx of any L.N or E . but from records I know of these
indeed where of short times, prehaps in a gaming campaing a C
acidently doing something.
actio...@hotmail.com
on. Then as madness consumed him he slipped more chaotic-ward.... I
hate to "me-too" but I agree that by the time he died he was firmly NE,
sliding towards CE.
--
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ +
+ +
+ EDWARD HAMMERBECK ICQ# 22423662 +
+ Application Tester +
+ Strategia Corporation +
+ +
+ +
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
D. Cameron King
> This is an important question. I need to know how
> everyone would judge Hitler's alignment. I know
> he's evil (please, please, please, no arguments
> over that!!!) But what kind of evil? I can make a
> case for lawful (dictatorial, ridgid, etc), and
> chaotic (nuts, irrational behavior and theories,
> etc.) I am leaning more toward lawful, but those
> chaotic traits bother me. Would that make Hitler
> Neutral Evil? Responses, please.
Irrational behavior and theories have nothing to do
with Chaos; neither does insanity. As for Law, I
don't know whether Hitler followed an internally
consistent code of ethics; if he did, he would
certainly have been Lawful Evil. I doubt that is
so, however. More likely, he would have used any
means necessary to achieve his goals, and that is
essentially Neutral Evil.
All of this, however, depends upon how *you*
interpret alignments. If you think insane people
are Chaotic, and you think Hitler was insane...
well, I guess he'd be Chaotic Evil. If you think
"rigid" people are Lawful, and--I'm sure you see
my point.
S. Wilson
> I do wonder why you limit the debate to having to be Evil aligned, I am
> more interested in why this is so important to you, considering the man
> is dead 50 years. Posts a few thoughts for consideration.
That's an interesting thought. Perhaps he *would* be Good-aligned, and
merely terribly insane. There's no reason you can't have a Good villain in
a campaign, who needs to be tracked down and stopped. As has been said,
"There are few things more dangerous than a misguided idealist."
Hemlock
Graey
> > everyone would judge Hitler's alignment. I know
> > he's evil (please, please, please, no arguments
> > over that!!!) But what kind of evil? I can make a
> > case for lawful (dictatorial, ridgid, etc), and
> > chaotic (nuts, irrational behavior and theories,
> > etc.) I am leaning more toward lawful, but those
> > chaotic traits bother me. Would that make Hitler
> > Neutral Evil? Responses, please.
Definately lawful. Chaotic doesn't mean you're crazy, it means you
value individual freedom over the societal whole. Lawful means you
believe in an ordered society. That was very much Hitler.
- Graey (note: my webpage is temporarily residing in limbo)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
luvewe.eglobe.com/~slayer sla...@mediacity.com
www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/posting-rules www.newbiesguide.com
Dave Harper
<Kelly_p...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>This is an important question. I need to know how
>everyone would judge Hitler's alignment. I know
>he's evil (please, please, please, no arguments
>over that!!!) But what kind of evil? I can make a
>case for lawful (dictatorial, ridgid, etc), and
>chaotic (nuts, irrational behavior and theories,
>etc.) I am leaning more toward lawful, but those
>chaotic traits bother me. Would that make Hitler
>Neutral Evil? Responses, please.
I can't believe I'm replying to this...it's caused so many
flame wars in the past, but...
I keep personality distinct from morals. I think one of the
major flaws of the AD&D alignment system, as written, is that it makes
some reference to personality. So in my game, it would be perfectly
reasonable for somebody to be lawful and have an erratic personality
or a neurosis. Thus, I'd classify Hitler as LE.
(Another problem is that in real life, people are complex, and
don't get pigeonholed easily)
Dave
"The 'Ultimate Weapon Demon God' is a naive valley girl
and I'm enjoying it immensely. This is scary." -Me
"Well, at least there's nothing more dangerous to worry
about than flying sheep!" -Ifurita, _Whirlwind_
Chris Adams
This kind of thing would actually eliminate alignments all together, I
think. I mean, *very* few people consider themselves evil . . . we have to
work from some objective definitions, and the PHB lays them out pretty
clearly.
Chris Adams
faranno dei cimiteri le loro cattedrali
e delle citta le vostre tombe.
dogglebe
>Later, after the war was over and he had difficulties,
Like being dead, perhaps?
Hitler is not alive and hiding in Argentina, okay. I
checked....TWICE!
Phil
Jon Inge Teigland
> Kelly Pedersen wrote:
> >
> > This is an important question. I need to know how
> > everyone would judge Hitler's alignment. I know
> > he's evil (please, please, please, no arguments
> > over that!!!) But what kind of evil? I can make a
> > case for lawful (dictatorial, ridgid, etc), and
> > chaotic (nuts, irrational behavior and theories,
> > etc.) I am leaning more toward lawful, but those
> > chaotic traits bother me. Would that make Hitler
> > Neutral Evil? Responses, please.
>
> more interested in why this is so important to you, considering the man
> is dead 50 years. Posts a few thoughts for consideration.
>
I basically agree.
One thing that is important to remember is that Hitler was a Real Living
Person, and not a (Non) Player Character. RLPs are very complex, a lot
more complex than a (N)PC would be. Because of this they can't really be
placed into the tiny 3x3 matrix D&D has made for alignments.
Besides, you can't really look at what a person has done, and
automatically conclude what his alignment is. What you need to know is
WHY he did this, what his reason was, and what he wanted to achieve. If
what he wanted was world domination, and the supremacy of the white
race, then I would conclude that he was evil. If what he wanted was for
Germany to have a political place in europe equal to the other big
european powers, and for Germany to get back the territory they had
lost, you could even argue that he was good.
Still, I think I would agree that, at least in the last decade or so of
his life, that he was not good. Whether he was neutral or evil, I cannot
say, since I don't know what went on inside his head. It is quite clear
that Germany was at that time a lawful country. With rigid laws and only
one party. This does not automatically mean that Hitler was lawful. In
fact I would assume that he himself was not.
I really can't narrow his alignment down to less than this, so I would
assume that he was somewhere within N, CN, NE, and CE. Probably closer
to N than C.
Jon Inge Teigland
Black Dragon
> Good reply. I'd agree that in the early days he was lawful evil full
> on. Then as madness consumed him he slipped more chaotic-ward.... I
> hate to "me-too" but I agree that by the time he died he was firmly NE,
> sliding towards CE.
Definately Lawful Evil on his rise, but I think maybe on the inside he was
always CE, since his ultimate goal was his own personal power, damn everyone
else.
But you claim he's dead? I though he was just hanging out in the Jungles of
South America, playing shuffleboard. Hmm...how old would he be now? 105?
MacrossSD1
Phil, I think he was referring to World War One, which Hitler served in as a
corporal. It was this war (and more accurately, the manner of Germany's losing
it) that helped form his opinions. Not to oversimplify, it was WW1 that "made"
Hitler into the monster he was.
Anyway, just to put my oar in the water , I'm pulling for LE.
Rune R Christensen
>
>>Later, after the war was over and he had difficulties,
>
>Like being dead, perhaps?
Just in case you're not making a joke; the earlier poster refered to
WW1. Hitler served as a corporal in the 16th Bayrian Reserve.
Actually, he was the only man of the 3000 in the 16th who had been
enlisted for the whole war and survived until the end. Damn. Hitler is
one of those people who makes you wish for retro-active birth-control.
>
>Hitler is not alive and hiding in Argentina, okay. I
>checked....TWICE!
Very reassuring...but what happened to Mengele?
>
>Phil
>
Kelly Pedersen
make Hitler into something unplesant from the Lower Planes, and I needed to
know what alignment he was when he died to decide which lower plane he went
to, and thus what he was likely to end up as. If it was the Abyss, I would
guess Abyssal lord. If Baator, probably a Baatezu noble, or maybe a unique
creatue. Not exactly sure what would happen if he went to the Gray Waste.
ba...@digital-marketplace.net wrote:
> Kelly Pedersen wrote:
> >
> > This is an important question. I need to know how
> > everyone would judge Hitler's alignment. I know
> > he's evil (please, please, please, no arguments
> > over that!!!) But what kind of evil? I can make a
> > case for lawful (dictatorial, ridgid, etc), and
> > chaotic (nuts, irrational behavior and theories,
> > etc.) I am leaning more toward lawful, but those
> > chaotic traits bother me. Would that make Hitler
> > Neutral Evil? Responses, please.
>
> I do wonder why you limit the debate to having to be Evil aligned, I am
> more interested in why this is so important to you, considering the man
> is dead 50 years. Posts a few thoughts for consideration.
>
Marshall
> corporal. It was this war (and more accurately, the manner of Germany's losing
> it) that helped form his opinions. Not to oversimplify, it was WW1 that "made"
> Hitler into the monster he was.
> Anyway, just to put my oar in the water , I'm pulling for LE.
Tough to say what made Hitler what he was (I'm a PhD student in German
history). but it has been argued that WWI had a lot to do with it.
Certainaly better than some of those psychohistory debates out there. As
for alignment I'd argue that Hitler began as LE (as evidenced by his T-4
program, economic plans etc. which tended toward the development of a
strong law-based society), but as the war progressed he underwent
significant changes (see D. Peukert's "The Hitler Myth") and by the time
he died was CE (again, evidenced by his irrational decisions concerning
allocation of supplies and decision making based on personal ideology).
-Andrew
ba...@digital-marketplace.net
>
> In article <36b25...@nexus.comcen.com.au>,
> Chris Adams <ad...@comcen.com.au> wrote:
> >I wouldn't. It seems to me extremely non-lawful evil. Basically he's
> >arguing here that "might makes right", which is most definitely either
> >neutral or chaotic evil . . . I'm not exactly sure which.
>
> Might makes right is a facet of *all* Evil alignments.
>
> Hitler and his Nazis are *textbook* Lawful Evil.
> I'm amazed that there's even argument on the subject.
>
> -Michael
*Nods* Agrees that Nazis Germany was LE, what was asked for opinions
of alignment of the leader of that party. As others may tell you, there
are many opinions to be had. I still believe that Hitler was CE as best
can be define in AD&D terms, when he neared death.
Guess Let the opinions fall from those that post and three need be no
arguments at all.
PJS
<Pine.A41.4.05.990128...@homer21.u.washington., "S. Wilson"
<sswi...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> > I do wonder why you limit the debate to having to be Evil aligned, I am
> > more interested in why this is so important to you, considering the man
> > is dead 50 years. Posts a few thoughts for consideration.
>
> That's an interesting thought. Perhaps he *would* be Good-aligned, and
> merely terribly insane. There's no reason you can't have a Good villain in
> a campaign, who needs to be tracked down and stopped. As has been said,
> "There are few things more dangerous than a misguided idealist."
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Even in his early life, before WWI, he was keen on racial supremacist and
elitist theories as espoused by J.L. von Liebenfels in his "Ostara" pamphlets.
In 1928, well before he was shot to pieces by heroin addiction and quack
doctors, he (Hitler) declared, "... the stronger, the more able, win, while the
less able, the weak, lose. Struggle is the father of all things. It is not by
the principles of humanity that man lives or is able to preserve himself above
the animal world, but solely by means of the most brutal struggle." This
statement, I think most will agree, is very Lawful Evil indeed.
---
No matter where you go in the World, there you are.
Chris Adams
>elitist theories as espoused by J.L. von Liebenfels in his "Ostara"
pamphlets.
>In 1928, well before he was shot to pieces by heroin addiction and quack
>doctors, he (Hitler) declared, "... the stronger, the more able, win,
while the
>less able, the weak, lose. Struggle is the father of all things. It is not
by
>the principles of humanity that man lives or is able to preserve himself
above
>the animal world, but solely by means of the most brutal struggle." This
>statement, I think most will agree, is very Lawful Evil indeed.
I wouldn't. It seems to me extremely non-lawful evil. Basically he's
arguing here that "might makes right", which is most definitely either
neutral or chaotic evil . . . I'm not exactly sure which.
I mean, the guy says "It is not by the principles of humanity" - i.e., the
morals and ethics that give rise to laws - "but solely by means of the most
brutal struggle" - i.e., the strongest is the one in the right.
Michael Scott Brown
>arguing here that "might makes right", which is most definitely either
>neutral or chaotic evil . . . I'm not exactly sure which.
Might makes right is a facet of *all* Evil alignments.
Scorpex
a lunatic)
Dave Harper
<Kelly_p...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Sorry, I should have been more specific as to why I wanted it. I want to
>make Hitler into something unplesant from the Lower Planes, and I needed to
>know what alignment he was when he died to decide which lower plane he went
>to, and thus what he was likely to end up as. If it was the Abyss, I would
>guess Abyssal lord. If Baator, probably a Baatezu noble, or maybe a unique
>creatue. Not exactly sure what would happen if he went to the Gray Waste.
I think it would be more poignant to have him, a man of
considerable power in life, have to start (like everybody else) as a
larva, and hope that he doesn't get eaten before he can evolve into a
relatively stronger, say, nupperibo or something. Then have to suffer
under the whips of his masters and hope he survives long enough to
destroy one of his masters and take over from him, and so on...Hitler
as a weak demon, trying to keep his true identity a secret until he
can amass enough power to make a 'comeback.'
Dave
Can God make a rock so heavy even He switches to muzak?
Watch the Smurfs. Root for Gargamel.
"Whom the gods love die young." -Byron
There's a fine line between genius and insanity. Don't push.
Too much love will kill you, just as sure as none at all.
Odwyn Quickfeet
bs...@freenet.toronto.on.ca
>were not arguing were debating
>
This runs into a pet peeve....
In a debate one argues his opion or side. I hate it when people confuse argue
with quarrel or feud <O.H.G. fehida, enmity] a bitter, deadly quarrel.>
Please just check the dictionary once in a while.
Michael
bs...@freenet.toronto.on.ca
Robert Baldwin
<gyps...@riverview.net> wrote:
>were not arguing were debating
>
>
And your fifteen minutes are up. Please pay at the ront desk. ;-)
--
Saint Baldwin, definer of the unholy darkspawn.
"Everyone dies someday; the trick is doing it well."
"Don't be so open minded that your brains fall out" [MSB].
-
Spam Satan! www.sluggy.com
Remove the spam-block to reply
Jon Inge Teigland
Lawful Evil. I will however NOT agree that Hitler himself was Lawful
Evil.
Jon Inge Teigland
Chris Adams
>>I wouldn't. It seems to me extremely non-lawful evil. Basically he's
>>arguing here that "might makes right", which is most definitely either
>>neutral or chaotic evil . . . I'm not exactly sure which.
>
> Might makes right is a facet of *all* Evil alignments.
>
> Hitler and his Nazis are *textbook* Lawful Evil.
> I'm amazed that there's even argument on the subject.
No, I think that there's room for discussion. Certainly both the Nazi
movement and Germany (though not most Germans) under Hitler were Lawful
Evil . . . but a LE society is best for maintaining absolute control
regardless of alignment. You have laws, yet when a situation arises which
cannot be or is not covered by the law, you are unfettered by
considerations of morality as to your solution.
However, I would view Hitler himself as Neutral Evil. Despite his grand
proclamations of superiority of the German race, et cetera, I believe he
was motivated strongly by self-interest and a greedy thirst for power.
In the PHB it states that you can have rulers of one alignment ruling over
a society of another . . . it gives mostly good-evil contrasts, but I
believe a self-centred power-hungry NE dictator (Hitler) ruling over a
controlled, ordered LE state (Nazi Germany) is perfectly possible.
SolrFlareX
shyplis (sp?). and that made him go insane.
SFX
Shi Ao Tai
>I really can't narrow his alignment down to less than this, so I would
>assume that he was somewhere within N, CN, NE, and CE. Probably closer
>to N than C.
Well if we bring the laws of baldwinism into it Hitler was Lawful Good, but
very insane. Oh well.
Shi Ao Tai
robb...@ozemail.com.au
"Chris Adams" <ad...@comcen.com.au> wrote:
> faranno dei cimiteri le loro cattedrali
> e delle citta le vostre tombe.
On another note where does this come from?
If I'm not mistaken it goes soemthing like:
They will make cemeteries of their cathedrals
and of the cities your tombs
Cool. Is this yours or can I find anything else by the same author?
Rob
You can afford to be arrogant when you're the best....
Durath Darkfriend
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Student
The question about H's Alignment:
: Might makes right is a facet of *all* Evil alignments.
And some neutral alignments as well.
: Hitler and his Nazis are *textbook* Lawful Evil.
Hmmm.. I think that Nazism was LE by nature. Its laws were severe, so I do
not doubt the lawfulness of Nazism.
The real (and original) question was the alignment of Hitler. I do not know
much about his early years, but when he started his regime, he was definitely
lawful. Deeming other (non-arian) races filthy is not necessarily *very* evil
but trying to exterminate them IS.
So, in the late 30s he was LE.
LAter on, the pressure was too much for him. If he wasn't already, he now
became a real fruitcake and one could argue about he became more chaotic in
morale. However, one should know more about insanity to know that one.
: I'm amazed that there's even argument on the subject.
Well, the PHB and the DMG are not always right. They were only written by
humans.
Greetings,
der Joachim
--
---------------------------------------------------------
Computational linguistics student at Tilburg University,
The Netherlands
http://pi0959.kub.nl/Haterd/index.html
One question: How come the .44 magnum is the worlds only usable point and
click interface? (Alan Cox)
Chris Adams
>> e delle citta le vostre tombe.
>
>On another note where does this come from?
>
>If I'm not mistaken it goes soemthing like:
>
>They will make cemeteries of their cathedrals
>and of the cities your tombs
>
>Cool. Is this yours or can I find anything else by the same author?
"For the cemeteries will be their cathedrals, and the cities will be your
tombs."
I have no idea who wrote it, except it was an Italian, I think from the
Renaissance, and it wasn't Dante.
Interestingly, it was also used as the tagline for the "Demons" series of
horror films.
Chris Adams
Kelly Pedersen
over a hundred years after his death, and I figure that someone that evil would
have risen through the ranks to something really unpleasant by now.
Special J
Kelly Pedersen wrote:
>
> This is an important question. I need to know how
> everyone would judge Hitler's alignment. I know
> he's evil (please, please, please, no arguments
> over that!!!) But what kind of evil? I can make a
> case for lawful (dictatorial, ridgid, etc), and
> chaotic (nuts, irrational behavior and theories,
> etc.) I am leaning more toward lawful, but those
> chaotic traits bother me. Would that make Hitler
> Neutral Evil? Responses, please.
I would say lawful-evil but insane. Lawfuls can be nuts too.
--
Special J
Veni! Vidi! Vici!
remove *burnallspammers* for email
Chris Adams
>That is what I had planned for him. However, the place I'm setting him in
is
>over a hundred years after his death, and I figure that someone that evil
would
>have risen through the ranks to something really unpleasant by now.
Wasn't there actually something about a huge amount (like hundreds) of
years for some of the fiends to translate into something else? Maybe for
the lower-level demons it might be a little shorter, but I don't know . . .
larvae are a dime a dozen, and this *is* an infinte multiverse here . . .
plenty of people worse than Hitler could be out there.
But, it's what you want to do. :)
Jon Inge Teigland
> Kelly Pedersen wrote in message <36B5F556...@yahoo.com>...
>
> >That is what I had planned for him. However, the place I'm setting him in is
> >over a hundred years after his death, and I figure that someone that evil would
> >have risen through the ranks to something really unpleasant by now.
>
> Wasn't there actually something about a huge amount (like hundreds) of
> years for some of the fiends to translate into something else? Maybe for
> the lower-level demons it might be a little shorter, but I don't know . . .
> larvae are a dime a dozen, and this *is* an infinte multiverse here . . .
> plenty of people worse than Hitler could be out there.
>
ascend into "something really unpleasant", as he describes it.
However, maybe "someone even more unpleasant" was impressed by Hitler's
work, and decided to sponsor him. Maybe he (it?) thought "Hey, that's
what I call officer material! Let's enroll him into West Point, and
maybe in 50-100 years he could make a general. We could use someone like
him in the Blood War."
Jon Inge Teigland
Arian Hokin
Chris Adams wrote:
>Rob wrote:
> >> faranno dei cimiteri le loro cattedrali
> >> e delle citta le vostre tombe.
> >
> >On another note where does this come from?
> >
> >If I'm not mistaken it goes something like:
> >
> >They will make cemeteries of their cathedrals
> >and of the cities your tombs
You're not mistaken, except that they're making cathedrals of the cemeteries,
not the other way round. Spooky, huh?
> >Cool. Is this yours or can I find anything else by the same author?
>
> "For the cemeteries will be their cathedrals, and the cities will be your
> tombs."
Yeah, but *they're* the ones who will be responsible - this translation isn't
half so scary!
> I have no idea who wrote it, except it was an Italian, I think from the
> Renaissance, and it wasn't Dante.
Wasn't it? Rats, I decided it probably was. Didn't quite get around to
asking...
--
Arian Hokin
List-owner, Terry-Aria...@onelist.com
To subscribe, click here:
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/Terry-Arian_ChatShow
"Carpe DM: Seize the Dungeon Master"
Dave Harper
<joni...@online.no> wrote:
>However, maybe "someone even more unpleasant" was impressed by Hitler's
>work, and decided to sponsor him. Maybe he (it?) thought "Hey, that's
>what I call officer material! Let's enroll him into West Point, and
>maybe in 50-100 years he could make a general. We could use someone like
>him in the Blood War."
Given some of his decisions in WW2, I'd be more inclined to
send him to my enemies to work for them.
Little known fact: there is a World War II simulation wargame
where, if Hitler is assassinated, Germany's wartime production value
goes up slightly.
"What's with the Rabeeks?"
"Riggi Rabbit programmed them to bounce with glee
whenever I'm injured. He can be a creepy bunny sometimes."
-Reality Check! 12
Chris Adams
>> "For the cemeteries will be their cathedrals, and the cities will be
your
>> tombs."
>
>Yeah, but *they're* the ones who will be responsible - this translation
isn't
>half so scary!
It's implied . . . you gotta have subtlety, man. Besides, it does just fine
on the cover of "Demons 2" . . .
I've been *toying* with the idea of basing a campaign around this quote . .
.
>> I have no idea who wrote it, except it was an Italian, I think from the
>> Renaissance, and it wasn't Dante.
>
>Wasn't it? Rats, I decided it probably was. Didn't quite get around to
>asking...
Oh, I know it wasn't Dante. It was definitely a different name.
Chris Adams
Chris Adams
>>However, maybe "someone even more unpleasant" was impressed by Hitler's
>>work, and decided to sponsor him. Maybe he (it?) thought "Hey, that's
>>what I call officer material! Let's enroll him into West Point, and
>>maybe in 50-100 years he could make a general. We could use someone like
>>him in the Blood War."
This sounds good in theory, but in a Planescape game (which I seem to
recall this was supposed to be) it's not appropriate. The mechanics for
promotion are solely based on how you perform as a baatezu or tanar'ri (or
yugoloth, which'd be my choice seeing as how I think Hitler was neutral
evil).
Hitler would have started out as a larva, like everyone else. If he's a
baatezu (LE), being chosen for promotion is pure chance . . . even more so
for tanar'ri.
A theory: night hags sell the most promising larvae to tanar'ri and baatezu
alike. They do quite a brisk business, because they live in the Grey Waste
(?) which is a neutral evil plane. The larvae that grow their are thus able
to be influenced either way, and the night hags usually make the effort to
find the "good ones".
So: Hitler dies, incarnates in the Grey Waste as a larva, and is recognised
as having potential by a night hag. She sells him on to a baatezu, who
molds him into a LE manes . . .
Realistically, it doesn't matter what his alignment was in life . . . you
could think of a way to make him into what you think he'd be best in your
game as.
Lynne Simpson
<ad...@comcen.com.au> wrote:
>In the PHB it states that you can have rulers of one alignment ruling over
>a society of another . . . it gives mostly good-evil contrasts, but I
>believe a self-centred power-hungry NE dictator (Hitler) ruling over a
>controlled, ordered LE state (Nazi Germany) is perfectly possible.
I agree, and I think some of Hitler's lieutenants might well have been
of the NE or CE persuasion. IIRC, some of the most evil programs and
campaigns carried out by the Nazis were inventions of Hitler's
lieutenants, not the man himself. I have a strong suspicion that a
person like Hitler has a way of inspiring lieutenants to continually
strive to outdo each other (and themselves) with increasingly
grandiose (and in this case, more evil) plans. Hitler may have been
the most *prominent* Nazi, but I don't think he was the most evil one.
Lynne
===============================================
To reply by email, substitute earthlink.net for nospam.com.
===============================================
Kelly Pedersen
Hitler dies, becomes larvae of his alignment (check the description, it says
"any evil". I figure this means they are of the same alignment as in life. It
also says they exist all across the lower planes, so he shows up in the
approaite plane. I'm thinking the Abyss.)
Hitler gets upgraded into some minor form of Tanar'i relatively quickly, by
chance. Also remember that a petitioner's personality stays the same as when
they were alive, even if they can't remember anything. This provides a link to
the original Hitler.
People on Earth start respecting Hitler and following his ideals. This gives
the concept of Hitler power. Eventually, some hard to describe force, fueled by
the belief energy of the people, pulls Hitler's memory core back to his new
Tanar'i form, and he remembers what he was. He starts a rise to higher status,
feeding on the belief that is now going directly to him, and soon becomes an
Abyssal Lord.
Hitler uses agents to go to Earth, and set up organized priesthoods, and inform
his worshippers of his "triumphant return", claiming he never died. This gives
him even more worship power. He makes a deal with a real Abyssal god to give
his worshippers spells.
Hitler gains enough belife, through Earth's larger population, to make the jump
to real god. Demi god, of course, but still, a god.
Adam Dalton
He was a member of a political ORGANISATION.
He was ELECTED to power legally.
He then bent rules to become Hindenberg's successor.
He created an organised state, with him at the pinnacle.
Structures within structures within structures.......
LE all the way.
Kelly Pedersen wrote:
>
> This is an important question. I need to know how
> everyone would judge Hitler's alignment. I know
> he's evil (please, please, please, no arguments
> over that!!!) But what kind of evil? I can make a
> case for lawful (dictatorial, ridgid, etc), and
> chaotic (nuts, irrational behavior and theories,
> etc.) I am leaning more toward lawful, but those
> chaotic traits bother me. Would that make Hitler
> Neutral Evil? Responses, please.
--
Regards,
-------------------- . . -------------------------------------
. zipworld
Adam Dalton . . web: www.zipworld.com.au | Internet
Sales & Marketing . . tel: +61.2.9253.5741 | Solutions
dal...@zipworld.net fax: +61.2.9247.5276 | Simplified
Chris Adams
Oh, that sounds fine. I just had a problem with the tanar'ri necessarily
recognising that Hitler would make a good tanar'ri . . . but belief is,
after all, what drives the fiends.
Arian Hokin
Student wrote:
> The real (and original) question was the alignment of Hitler. I do not know
> much about his early years, but when he started his regime, he was definitely
> lawful. Deeming other (non-arian) races filthy is not necessarily *very* evil
> but trying to exterminate them IS.
That's "non-Aryan". Everybody's non-Arian, except for me. And certain 4th-c
heretics.
Will Nesbitt
> Kelly Pedersen wrote:
> >
> > This is an important question. I need to know how
> > everyone would judge Hitler's alignment. I know
> > he's evil (please, please, please, no arguments
> > over that!!!) But what kind of evil? I can make a
> > case for lawful (dictatorial, ridgid, etc), and
> > chaotic (nuts, irrational behavior and theories,
> > etc.) I am leaning more toward lawful, but those
> > chaotic traits bother me. Would that make Hitler
> > Neutral Evil? Responses, please.
>
Hitler was a revolutionary ... and got jailed for it. Hitler was an
absolute believer in laws and in order---if he was the law. Hitler is
unquestionably a Neutral Evil (everything for me) masquerading as a LE in
his later years. Hitler was no friend of structure ... structure be
damned if it stood in his way. He was no propponent of chaos---with out
order how can you control your minions? Hitler was for the
aggrandizement of Hitler---NE all the way.
Adam Benedict Canning
<sswi...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>That's an interesting thought. Perhaps he *would* be Good-aligned, and
>merely terribly insane. There's no reason you can't have a Good villain in
>a campaign, who needs to be tracked down and stopped. As has been said,
>"There are few things more dangerous than a misguided idealist."
>
>Hemlock
>
We must conquer the universe to set everyone free. Free of fear, free
of excessive taxation, free of government by idiots. We may have to
kill a few people along the waym, but surely you will join me in my
noble quest to exterminate the evil gods, bring sane and sensible
government to the universe and abolish the need for adventuring.
One of the villians from a spelljammer sesion I ran. What suprised me
was the number of PC's who agreed to work for him despite knowing he
had the powers of an Oathbinder genie..
[He was LG, but utterly round the bend. Being a substandard clone of a
paladin mage will do that for you.]
Adam
Adam Benedict Canning
<ar...@holly.northnet.com.au> wrote:
>That's "non-Aryan". Everybody's non-Arian, except for me. And certain 4th-c
>heretics.
>
And the Priory of Sion.
Adam
Joseph Oberlander
> for alignment I'd argue that Hitler began as LE (as evidenced by his T-4
> program, economic plans etc. which tended toward the development of a
> strong law-based society), but as the war progressed he underwent
> significant changes (see D. Peukert's "The Hitler Myth") and by the time
> he died was CE (again, evidenced by his irrational decisions concerning
> allocation of supplies and decision making based on personal ideology).
Humm... Maybe THIS explains it.
I think I see a pattern - a "slippery-slope" evil-alignment system.
LE -> NE -> CE -> DEAD
:)
Joseph Oberlander
> make Hitler into something unplesant from the Lower Planes, and I needed to
> know what alignment he was when he died to decide which lower plane he went
> to, and thus what he was likely to end up as. If it was the Abyss, I would
> guess Abyssal lord. If Baator, probably a Baatezu noble, or maybe a unique
> creatue. Not exactly sure what would happen if he went to the Gray Waste.
AH. What he was when he DIED. Probably NE-insane, which in AD&D terms
translates to CE.
As for what we would come back as, he would probably be re-formed
every generation under another human form as a half-demon.
Insane CHR and ability to lead. Could be a few hundred years before
the locals figure out that all their bad-guys(tm) are actually
incarnations of the same creature.
Personally, he strikes me as the sort of transindental-evil type.
(fits into its own area - possibly part of the negative plane)
Afterall, who knows what actually comes from and lives in that place...