Expanded spell slot tables (was: Alternative epic level system?)

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Keith Davies

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May 9, 2007, 5:19:00 PM5/9/07
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Matt Frisch <matu...@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote:
>
> I think that he also means the existing spell table gets bumped up a notch
> as far as the per-days go. Progress spell levels up to level 20 to account
> for metamagic (level 10+ spells would be exclusively metamagic, with the
> need to go up to 20 for stacking multiple such effects). Expand the spell
> table upwards starting at level 21 with the aquisition of the first 10th
> level spell slot. So a 25th level wizard would have the 4-per-level per
> days from spell levels 0 to 9, and on top of that would also have:
>
> 10: 3
> 11: 2
> 12: 1

I'd modify the caster slots tables slightly. Right now they break the
pattern at the high end (look at Wiz 17-20 -- they gain one ninth-level
slot per day per level, where normally they wouldn't get four
ninth-level slots until 23rd level).

However, since you're also extending the levels available, and
10th-level slots can be used for lower-level spells (and in fact *must*
be used for lower-level spells, probably metamagicked) this is still a
net gain for the wizard.

---- RAW ---- ------ Modified for Epic Level ------
level 6 7 8 9 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
17 4 3 2 1 4 3 2 1
18 4 3 3 2 4 3 3 2
19 4 4 3 3 4 4 3 2 1
20 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2
21 4 4 4 3 2 1
22 4 4 4 3 3 2
23 4 4 4 4 3 2 1
24 4 4 4 4 3 3 2
25 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1
26 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2
27 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1
28 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2
29 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1
30 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2

Notice that at levels 19-20 you actually end up with fewer 8th and 9th
level spell slots... but you have a like number of even higher-level
slots available. Wiz19 still has three slots of 9th level or higher,
Wiz20 loses one slot for each of 8th and 9th level spells, but has two
10th-level slots to work with.

Overall a net gain, and the normal pattern continues to fit the table.

> I'd also continue the existing trend as far as how earlier levels gain
> additional castings. You get 1 of that level for 1 level, then 2 of
> that level for 2 levels, then 3 of that level for 3 levels, etc. So
> our level 25 wizard would have a total per day spell list that looked
> like:

I'd noticed the pattern, but hadn't considered extending that part of
it.

Hang on, time for some Perl ('cause I'm a lazy bugger)... okay, done.


Modified Wizard Spell Slots

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
1 1 - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
2 2 - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
3 2 1 - - - - - - - - - - - - -
4 3 2 - - - - - - - - - - - - -
5 3 2 1 - - - - - - - - - - - -
6 3 3 2 - - - - - - - - - - - -
7 4 3 2 1 - - - - - - - - - - -
8 4 3 3 2 - - - - - - - - - - -
9 4 4 3 2 1 - - - - - - - - - -
10 4 4 3 3 2 - - - - - - - - - -
11 5 4 4 3 2 1 - - - - - - - - -
12 5 4 4 3 3 2 - - - - - - - - -
13 5 5 4 4 3 2 1 - - - - - - - -
14 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 - - - - - - - -
15 5 5 5 4 4 3 2 1 - - - - - - -
16 6 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 - - - - - - -
17 6 5 5 5 4 4 3 2 1 - - - - - -
18 6 6 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 - - - - - -
19 6 6 5 5 5 4 4 3 2 1 - - - - -
20 6 6 6 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 - - - - -
21 6 6 6 5 5 5 4 4 3 2 1 - - - -
22 7 6 6 6 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 - - - -
23 7 6 6 6 5 5 5 4 4 3 2 1 - - -
24 7 7 6 6 6 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 - - -
25 7 7 6 6 6 5 5 5 4 4 3 2 1 - -
26 7 7 7 6 6 6 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 - -
27 7 7 7 6 6 6 5 5 5 4 4 3 2 1 -
28 7 7 7 7 6 6 6 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 -
29 8 7 7 7 6 6 6 5 5 5 4 4 3 2 1
30 8 7 7 7 7 6 6 6 5 5 4 4 3 3 2

This gives wizards even more power (the extra low-level spells), but I
don't know that that's a major worry -- the low-level spells aren't a
big deal. Clerics and druids are manageable (they already used the same
pattern and continued it until they hit fifth-level slots).

Bards, paladins, rangers, and sorcerers don't use this pattern, though.
Not *directly*, but with some thought I was actually able to come up
with what look like some fairly decent replacements based on it.


Now, the next bit ranges somewhere between 'well-considered' and 'random
mumbling'. My current plans call for probably dropping all four of
these classes. Bard, paladin, and ranger are likely to become prestige
classes, sorcerer is likely to be replaced with something driven by
spell-like abilities rather than spells. Possibly the warlock class,
maybe something closer to bloodlines, per Birthright or the like.

Let's start with sorcerers (the next spellcasting class). Right now
they go 3, 4, 5, 6, then stay at 6. There's a small hiccup in the
progression at low level (they have to wait until fourth level to get
their first second-levels spell).

I have to say that I have *never* noticed a sorcerer having a problem
with running out of spells, so it's probably actually safe to reduce the
numbers slightly.

What if sorcerers get slots as a wizard one level lower, plus two slots
per spell level they have access to?

This results in a slightly lower number of spells per day at lower
levels (I have *never* noticed a sorcerer run out of /magic missile/
after about third level), more at higher levels (where, since they're
not running out of spells *anyway*, isn't a big deal).

Modified Sorcerer Spell Slots

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
1 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
2 3 - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
3 4 - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
4 4 3 - - - - - - - - - - - - -
5 5 4 - - - - - - - - - - - - -
6 5 4 3 - - - - - - - - - - - -
7 5 5 4 - - - - - - - - - - - -
8 6 5 4 3 - - - - - - - - - - -
9 6 5 5 4 - - - - - - - - - - -
10 6 6 5 4 3 - - - - - - - - - -
11 6 6 5 5 4 - - - - - - - - - -
12 7 6 6 5 4 3 - - - - - - - - -
13 7 6 6 5 5 4 - - - - - - - - -
14 7 7 6 6 5 4 3 - - - - - - - -
15 7 7 6 6 5 5 4 - - - - - - - -
16 7 7 7 6 6 5 4 3 - - - - - - -
17 8 7 7 6 6 5 5 4 - - - - - - -
18 8 7 7 7 6 6 5 4 3 - - - - - -
19 8 8 7 7 6 6 5 5 4 - - - - - -
20 8 8 7 7 7 6 6 5 4 3 - - - - -
21 8 8 8 7 7 6 6 5 5 4 - - - - -
22 8 8 8 7 7 7 6 6 5 4 3 - - - -
23 9 8 8 8 7 7 6 6 5 5 4 - - - -
24 9 8 8 8 7 7 7 6 6 5 4 3 - - -
25 9 9 8 8 8 7 7 6 6 5 5 4 - - -
26 9 9 8 8 8 7 7 7 6 6 5 4 3 - -
27 9 9 9 8 8 8 7 7 6 6 5 5 4 - -
28 9 9 9 8 8 8 7 7 7 6 6 5 4 3 -
29 9 9 9 9 8 8 8 7 7 6 6 5 5 4 -
30 10 9 9 9 8 8 8 7 7 7 6 6 5 4 3

If the loss of the first-level spell slot at first level is a big deal,
perhaps give them '0' spells the level before they'd get 3 spells in
that slot. This will allow those with high enough Cha scores to get at
least one spell... though it does mean they probably get the
higher-level spells a level earlier too.

Perhaps just giving them slots as a wizard of the same level, plus one
per spell level, is sufficient?

Modified Sorcerer Spell Slots, take two

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
1 2 - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
2 3 - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
3 3 2 - - - - - - - - - - - - -
4 4 3 - - - - - - - - - - - - -
5 4 3 2 - - - - - - - - - - - -
6 4 4 3 - - - - - - - - - - - -
7 5 4 3 2 - - - - - - - - - - -
8 5 4 4 3 - - - - - - - - - - -
9 5 5 4 3 2 - - - - - - - - - -
10 5 5 4 4 3 - - - - - - - - - -
11 6 5 5 4 3 2 - - - - - - - - -
12 6 5 5 4 4 3 - - - - - - - - -
13 6 6 5 5 4 3 2 - - - - - - - -
14 6 6 5 5 4 4 3 - - - - - - - -
15 6 6 6 5 5 4 3 2 - - - - - - -
16 7 6 6 5 5 4 4 3 - - - - - - -
17 7 6 6 6 5 5 4 3 2 - - - - - -
18 7 7 6 6 5 5 4 4 3 - - - - - -
19 7 7 6 6 6 5 5 4 3 2 - - - - -
20 7 7 7 6 6 5 5 4 4 3 - - - - -
21 7 7 7 6 6 6 5 5 4 3 2 - - - -
22 8 7 7 7 6 6 5 5 4 4 3 - - - -
23 8 7 7 7 6 6 6 5 5 4 3 2 - - -
24 8 8 7 7 7 6 6 5 5 4 4 3 - - -
25 8 8 7 7 7 6 6 6 5 5 4 3 2 - -
26 8 8 8 7 7 7 6 6 5 5 4 4 3 - -
27 8 8 8 7 7 7 6 6 6 5 5 4 3 2 -
28 8 8 8 8 7 7 7 6 6 5 5 4 4 3 -
29 9 8 8 8 7 7 7 6 6 6 5 5 4 3 2
30 9 8 8 8 8 7 7 7 6 6 5 5 4 4 3

This means that they're gaining spontaneous casting and one additional
slot per spell level per day in exchange for more limited spell
knowledge. This is likely a fair trade.


Bards are an interesting one. The table is not even as regular as the
sorcerer table. I've got a couple of possibilities here, though.
Here's the one I'm leaning toward.

Modified Bard Spell Slots

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
1 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
2 0 - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
3 1 - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
4 1 0 - - - - - - - - - - - - -
5 2 1 - - - - - - - - - - - - -
6 2 1 0 - - - - - - - - - - - -
7 2 2 1 - - - - - - - - - - - -
8 3 2 1 0 - - - - - - - - - - -
9 3 2 2 1 - - - - - - - - - - -
10 3 3 2 1 0 - - - - - - - - - -
11 3 3 2 2 1 - - - - - - - - - -
12 4 3 3 2 1 0 - - - - - - - - -
13 4 3 3 2 2 1 - - - - - - - - -
14 4 4 3 3 2 1 0 - - - - - - - -
15 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 - - - - - - - -
16 4 4 4 3 3 2 1 0 - - - - - - -
17 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 - - - - - - -
18 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 1 0 - - - - - -
19 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 - - - - - -
20 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 1 0 - - - - -
21 5 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 - - - - -
22 5 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 1 0 - - - -
23 6 5 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 - - - -
24 6 5 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 1 0 - - -
25 6 6 5 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 - - -
26 6 6 5 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 1 0 - -
27 6 6 6 5 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 - -
28 6 6 6 5 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 1 0 -
29 6 6 6 6 5 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 -
30 7 6 6 6 5 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 1 0

Slots as a wizard of one level lower, minus one slot per spell level per
day. This actually works out slightly better for the bard -- he gains
mid- and higher-level spells slightly earlier than before, and he's no
longer limited to sixth-level spells. He also eventually ends up with
more spell slots (RAW he gains spell slots in a spell level but tops out
early).


Rangers and paladins both use the same table. How about

Modified Paladin and Ranger Spell Slots

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
1 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
2 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
3 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
4 0 - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
5 0 - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
6 1 - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
7 1 - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
8 1 0 - - - - - - - - - - - - -
9 1 0 - - - - - - - - - - - - -
10 2 1 - - - - - - - - - - - - -
11 2 1 - - - - - - - - - - - - -
12 2 1 0 - - - - - - - - - - - -
13 2 1 0 - - - - - - - - - - - -
14 2 2 1 - - - - - - - - - - - -
15 2 2 1 - - - - - - - - - - - -
16 3 2 1 0 - - - - - - - - - - -
17 3 2 1 0 - - - - - - - - - - -
18 3 2 2 1 - - - - - - - - - - -
19 3 2 2 1 - - - - - - - - - - -
20 3 3 2 1 0 - - - - - - - - - -
21 3 3 2 1 0 - - - - - - - - - -
22 3 3 2 2 1 - - - - - - - - - -
23 3 3 2 2 1 - - - - - - - - - -
24 4 3 3 2 1 0 - - - - - - - - -
25 4 3 3 2 1 0 - - - - - - - - -
26 4 3 3 2 2 1 - - - - - - - - -
27 4 3 3 2 2 1 - - - - - - - - -
28 4 4 3 3 2 1 0 - - - - - - - -
29 4 4 3 3 2 1 0 - - - - - - - -
30 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 - - - - - - - -

The above is "wizard of one level less than half class level, minus
one". This is a fairly decent approximation to the current tables.
This is probably good enough if we keep the current spell lists.

I'd like to unify the lists, though. This would require that the spells
be increased in level slightly, so we'd need to give them higher-level
slots.

Modified Paladin and Ranger Spell Slots, take two

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
1 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
2 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
3 0 - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
4 0 - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
5 0 - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
6 1 0 - - - - - - - - - - - - -
7 1 0 - - - - - - - - - - - - -
8 1 0 - - - - - - - - - - - - -
9 1 1 0 - - - - - - - - - - - -
10 1 1 0 - - - - - - - - - - - -
11 2 1 0 - - - - - - - - - - - -
12 2 1 1 0 - - - - - - - - - - -
13 2 1 1 0 - - - - - - - - - - -
14 2 2 1 0 - - - - - - - - - - -
15 2 2 1 1 0 - - - - - - - - - -
16 2 2 1 1 0 - - - - - - - - - -
17 3 2 2 1 0 - - - - - - - - - -
18 3 2 2 1 1 0 - - - - - - - - -
19 3 2 2 1 1 0 - - - - - - - - -
20 3 3 2 2 1 0 - - - - - - - - -
21 3 3 2 2 1 1 0 - - - - - - - -
22 3 3 2 2 1 1 0 - - - - - - - -
23 3 3 3 2 2 1 0 - - - - - - - -
24 4 3 3 2 2 1 1 0 - - - - - - -
25 4 3 3 2 2 1 1 0 - - - - - - -
26 4 3 3 3 2 2 1 0 - - - - - - -
27 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 1 0 - - - - - -
28 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 1 0 - - - - - -
29 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 1 0 - - - - - -
30 4 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 1 0 - - - - -

This is a little hairier. "As a wizard 2/3 the level, minus two spell
slots per spell level, and if this would be less than zero they get
none". Notice that they get higher level slots (up to 6th at 18th
level). They get their spells somewhat earlier, but because they're
going to be more or less in line with the 'standard' spell power levels
it'll probably be okay.

For fun, consider that paladins simply use cleric spells, possibly with
one domain (chosen from the domains of the god, plus probably Good, Law,
Protection, War... though they probably follow a god with those domains
anyway). Rangers could simply use druid spells, or possibly cleric plus
Animal, Plant, Travel domains.

If they go the 'domains' route, I assume they only add the spells to the
spell list, not that they get a bonus spell. There's no real reason why
they *couldn't* get the domain bonus spell, except that rangers might
then be inclined to be clerical rather than druidic. Depending on the
setting this may be appropriate, of course.

> The progression for level 9 spells diverges from the normal progression,
> ruins the nice symmetry of the earlier levels, but that's all good.

See above; I remedied this.

> Potentially, since the addition of extra lower level spells starts
> kicking in at level 11, level 9 spells should be put into the normal
> progression. That would have the 4th casting appear at 22 instead of
> 20.

Which, considering you're getting 10th and 11th spells at the same time,
is a net *gain*.

> Now, there's a not inconsiderable possibility that this will make
> spellcasters even stronger than they are now. One possibility would be
> to have the more-than-4 progression start at 21, but then that gives
> wierdness where spells don't come in increments, but in giant doses.
> At 21, all spell levels get another casting. Then at 26, all spell
> levels get the 6th casting. Would make those upgrade levels overly
> huge.

I like the 'expanded pattern' solution myself. The extra low-level
spells are nice, but I don't think they really add *that* much to the
outright power of the character. Normally they need the high-level
slots (save DCs, raw power) for suitable encounters, the lower-level
spells are mostly decoration by this point.

I think they're a good idea, mind. They might not make a quantitative
difference in overall power, but they allow for a little more variety.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "History is made by stupid people
keith....@kjdavies.org "Clever people wouldn't even try
keith....@gmail.com "If you want a place in the history books
http://www.kjdavies.org/ "Then do something dumb before you die."
-- The Arrogant Worms

Keith Davies

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May 9, 2007, 8:38:16 PM5/9/07
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Keith Davies <keith....@kjdavies.org> wrote:
>
> Rangers and paladins both use the same table. How about
>

Just for kicks I decided to take a quick look through the PH and check
the gods from the core rules. For the gods that look like they should
be able to support paladins (same rule as clerics, within one alignment
step) I did up the lists of all domain spells.

In some cases they may not be able to get the Good domain. This is
probably a decent thing, actually -- core rules paladins are 'more about
good than law', this leans the other way.


For the most part the spells lists don't look too bad. Overall they
don't always *quite* fit the current paladin mould, but I think they
cause some interesting variation between them.

If we add some clerical spells to flesh things out a bit, or tweak the
domains somewhat (which should be done anyway IMO) I think it shouldn't
be too hard to get something good. In fact, it's probably reasonable to
have a 'paladin domain', even.


In all cases non-epic paladins would top out at with sixth-level spells.

I'll admit now that paladins of Wee Jas look kind of freakish. This is
mostly, IMO, because the Death domain is closer to an Undead domain.
Changing the spell list would probably go a fair ways to fixing this. I
have to admit I *like* the idea of Wee Jas having paladins who target
undead, and the magic bit makes it even more attractive to me, but the
spell list isn't right for it.

I think if we went with a more generic 'holy warrior' (fighter BAB,
divine channeling and weakened clerical spellcasting) it could get
pretty interesting.


I've also done up a 'canonical paladin domain spells list' (good,
healing, law, protection, war). This is larger than any of the others
(none of the {LG, LN, NG} gods listed in the PH has more than four
domains).

'Canonical' (good, healing, law, protection, war)

1 cure light wounds, magic weapon, protection from chaos, protection
from evil, sanctuary
2 aid, calm emotions, cure moderate wounds, shield other, spiritual
weapon
3 curious serious wounds, magic circle against chaos, magic circle
against evil, magic vestment, protection from energy
4 cure critical wounds, divine power, holy smite, order's wrath, spell
immunity
5 cure light wounds mass, dispel chaos, dispel evil, flame strike, spell
resistance
6 antimagic field, blade barrier(x2), heal, hold monster
7 dictum, holy word, power word blind, regenerate, repulsion
8 cure critical wounds mass, holy aura, mind blank, power word stun,
shield of law
9 heal mass, power word kill, prismatic sphere, summon monster ix (good,
law)


PH Gods within one step of LG:

NG Ehlonna: animal, good, plant, sun
NG Garl Glittergold: good, protection, trickery
LG Heironeous: good, law, war
LG Moradin: earth, good, law, protection
NG Pelor: good, healing, strength, sun
LN St. Cuthbert: law, protection, strength
LN Wee Jas: death, law, magic
LG Yondalla: good, law, protection


NG Ehlonna (animal, good, plant, sun)

1 calm animals, endure elements, entangle, protection from evil
2 aid, barkskin, heat metal, hold animal
3 dominate animal, magic circle against evil, plant growth, searing
light
4 command plants, fire shield, holy smite, summon nature's ally iv
5 commune with nature, dispel evil, flame strike, wall of thorns
6 antilife shell, blade barrier, fire seeds, repel wood
7 animal shapes, animate plants, holy word, sunbeam
8 control plants, holy aura, summon nature's ally viii, sunburst
9 prismatic sphere, shambler, shapechange, summon monster ix


NG Garl Glittergold (good, protection, trickery)

1 disguise self, protection from evil, sanctuary
2 aid, invisibility, shield other
3 magic circle against evil, nondetection, protection from energy
4 confusion, holy smite, spell immunity
5 dispel evil, false vision, spell resistance
6 antimagic field, blade barrier, mislead
7 holy word, repulsion, screen
8 holy aura, mind blank, polymorph any object
9 prismatic sphere, summon monster ix, time stop


LG Heironeous (good, law, war)

1 magic weapon, protection from chaos, protection from evil
2 aid, calm emotions, spiritual weapon
3 magic circle against chaos, magic circle against evil, magic vestment
4 divine power, holy smite, order's wrath
5 dispel chaos, dispel evil, flame strike
6 blade barrier(2), hold monster
7 dictum, holy word, power word blind
8 holy aura, power word stun, shield of law
9 power word kill, summon monster ix(good,law)

LG Moradin (earth, good, law, protection)

1 magic stone, protection from chaos, protection from evil, sanctuary
2 aid, calm emotions, shield other, soften earth and stone
3 magic circle against chaos, magic circle against evil, protection from
energy, stone shape
4 holy smite, order's wrath, spell immunity, spike stones
5 dispel chaos, dispel evil, spell resistance, wall of stone
6 antimagic field, blade barrier, hold monster, stoneskin
7 dictum, earthquake, holy word, repulsion
8 holy aura, iron body, mind blank, shield of law
9 elemental swarm, prismatic sphere, summon monster ix (good, law)


NG Pelor (good, healing, strength, sun)

1 cure light wounds, endure elements, enlarge person, protection from
evil
2 aid, bull's strength, cure moderate wounds, heat metal
3 cure serious wounds, magic circle against evil, magic vestment,
searing light
4 cure critical wounds, fire shield, holy smite, spell immunity
5 cure light wounds mass, dispel evil, flame strike, righteous might
6 blade barrier, fire seeds, heal, stoneskin
7 bigby's grasping hand, holy word, regenerate, sunbeam
8 bigby's clenched fist, cure critical wounds mass, holy aura, sunburst
9 bigby's crushing hand, heal mass, prismatic sphere, summon monster ix


LN St. Cuthbert (law, protection, strength)

1 enlarge person, protection from chaos, sanctuary
2 bull's strength, calm emotions, shield other
3 magic circle against chaos, magic vestment, protection from energy
4 order's wrath, spell immunity (x2)
5 dispel chaos, righteous might, spell resistance
6 antimagic field, hold monster, stoneskin
7 bigby's grasping hand, dictum, repulsion
8 bigby's clenched fist, mind blank, shield of law
9 bigby's crushing hand, prismatic sphere, summon monster ix


LN Wee Jas (death, law, magic)

1 cause fear, nystul's magic aura, protection from chaos
2 calm emotions, death knell, identify
3 animate dead, dispel magic, magic circle against chaos
4 death ward, imbue with spell ability, order's wrath
5 dispel chaos, slay living, spell resistance
6 antimagic field, create undead, hold monster
7 destruction, dictum, spell turning
8 create greater undead, protection from spells, shield of law
9 mordenkainen's disjunction, summon monster ix, wail of the banshee


LG Yondalla (good, law, protection)

1 protection from chaos, protection from evil, sanctuary
2 aid, calm emotions, shield other
3 magic circle against chaos, magic circle against evil, protection from
energy
4 holy smite, order's wrath, spell immunity
5 dispel chaos, dispel evil, spell resistance
6 antimagic field, blade barrier, hold monster
7 dictum, holy word, repulsion
8 holy aura, , mind blank, shield of law
9 prismatic sphere, summon monster ix (good, law)

Keith Davies

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May 9, 2007, 11:37:18 PM5/9/07
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To see what this looks like, rangers would have druid spells plus:

1 calm animals, entangle, longstrider
2 barkskin, hold animal, locate object
3 dominate animal, fly, plant growth
4 command plants, dimension door, summon nature's ally iv
5 commune with nature, teleport, wall of thorns
6 antilife shell, find the path, repel wood
7 animal shapes, animate plants, teleport greater
8 control plants, phase door, summon nature's ally viii
9 astral projection, shambler, shapechange

I keep forgetting that Travel domain actually isn't all that useful for
'travelers'. It's kind of nice for getting around, but has never suited
my image of a god of travelers. I'll probably drop that list, but for
now....

So, from the above list rangers add:

1 -
2 locate object
3 fly
4 dimension door, plant growth [Drd]
5 teleport
6 -
7 animal shapes [Drd8], teleport greater
8 phase door
9 astral projection

All added spells are from the Travel domain (and /animal shapes/ gets
bumped down one level, but it's not available until epic anyway), and I
don't think the Travel domain fits as well as I expected, so I'll drop
them. Rangers would simply use druid spells, ignore domain spell lists.

Keith Davies

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May 10, 2007, 12:05:24 AM5/10/07
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Keith Davies <keith....@kjdavies.org> wrote:
>>
>> For fun, consider that paladins simply use cleric spells, possibly
>> with one domain (chosen from the domains of the god, plus probably
>> Good, Law, Protection, War... though they probably follow a god with
>> those domains anyway). Rangers could simply use druid spells, or
>> possibly cleric plus Animal, Plant, Travel domains.

Okay, differencing the spell lists for paladins and clerics.

paladin

----- Paladin ----- Cleric
oldSL oldCL newCL SL CL
bless 1 4/6 3/6 1 1
bless water 1 4/6 3/6 1 1
bless weapon 1 4/6 / - -
create water 1 4/6 / 0 0
cure light wounds 1 4/6 3/6 1 1
detect poison 1 4/6 / 0 0
detect undead 1 4/6 3/6 1 1
divine favor 1 4/6 3/6 1 1
endure elements 1 4/6 3/6 1 1
magic weapon 1 4/6 3/6 1 1
protection from chaos/evil 1 4/6 3/6 1 1
read magic 1 4/6 / 0 0
resistance 1 4/6 / 0 0
restoration lesser 1 4/6 6/9 2 3
virtue 1 4/6 / 0 0

* I haven't touched on 0-level spells. To extrapolate the table to
lower levels, they'd probably get orisons at first level... but
because I haven't consciously decided that yet, I'm leaving it
blank for now.

Also, /bless weapon/ isn't on the cleric list. If I equate it to
/align weapon/ it'd be a second-level spell -- instead of getting it
at 4/6, the paladin wouldn't get it until 6/9. This probably isn't
right.

bull's strength 2 8/10 6/9 2 3
delay poison 2 8/10 6/9 2 3
eagle's splendor 2 8/10 6/9 2 3
owl's wisdom 2 8/10 6/9 2 3
remove paralysis 2 8/10 6/9 2 3
resist energy 2 8/10 6/9 2 3
shield other 2 8/10 6/9 2 3
undetectable alignment 2 8/10 6/9 2 3
zone of truth 2 8/10 6/9 2 3

cure moderate wounds 3 11/12 6/9 2 3
daylight 3 11/12 9/12 3 5
discern lies 3 11/12 12/15 4 7
dispel magic 3 11/12 9/12 3 5
heal mount 3 11/12 / - -
magic circle against chaos/evil 3 11/12 9/12 3 5
magic weapon greater 3 11/12 12/15 4 7
prayer 3 11/12 9/12 3 5
remove blindness/deafness 3 11/12 9/12 3 5
remove curse 3 11/12 9/12 3 5

* /heal mount/ isn't on the cleric list. Putting it at Clr3 is
probably about right.

break enchantment 4 14/15 15/18 5 9
cure serious wounds 4 14/15 12/15 4 7
death ward 4 14/15 12/15 4 7
dispel chaos/evil 4 14/15 15/18 5 9
holy sword 4 14/15 / - -
mark of justice 4 14/15 15/18 5 9
neutralize poison 4 14/15 12/15 4 7
restoration 4 14/15 12/15 4 7

* /holy sword/ isn't on the cleric list. Considering it's a fairly
iconic spell for paladins it should probably be fourth level
(12/15), but could be fifth level (15/18) in the general case.

Overall, I think the lists line up pretty well this way. There are a
few spells that should probably be shifted around a bit (perhaps a level
or so), but for the most part they're awfully close to where I'd expect
them to be.

Paladins might still be limited to a subset of cleric spells. There are
a lot of spells that simply wouldn't make sense for a generic paladin to
use.

Creation of a 'Paladin domain' might be a good plan. It can soak up the
few spells that are on the RAW paladin list that aren't on the general
cleric list and add a few more.


Keith

Keith Davies

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May 10, 2007, 12:32:25 AM5/10/07
to
Keith Davies <keith....@kjdavies.org> wrote:
> Rangers would simply use druid spells, ignore domain spell lists.

As with the paladin/cleric comparison, I'll compare ranger and druid
lists.

----- Ranger ----- Druid

oldSL oldCL newCL SL CL

alarm 1 4/6 / - -
animal messenger 1 4/6 6/9 2 3
calm animals 1 4/6 3/6 1 1
charm animal 1 4/6 3/6 1 1
delay poison 1 4/6 6/9 2 3
detect animals or plants 1 4/6 3/6 1 1


detect poison 1 4/6 / 0 0

detect snares and pits 1 4/6 3/6 1 1


endure elements 1 4/6 3/6 1 1

entangle 1 4/6 3/6 1 1
hide from animals 1 4/6 3/6 1 1
jump 1 4/6 / - -
longstrider 1 4/6 3/6 1 1
magic fang 1 4/6 3/6 1 1
pass without trace 1 4/6 3/6 1 1


read magic 1 4/6 / 0 0

resist energy 1 4/6 6/9 2 3
speak with animals 1 4/6 3/6 1 1
summon nature's ally i 1 4/6 3/6 1 1

barkskin 2 8/10 6/9 2 3
bear's endurance 2 8/10 6/9 2 3
cat's grace 2 8/10 6/9 2 3
cure light wounds 2 8/10 3/6 1 1
hold animal 2 8/10 6/9 2 3


owl's wisdom 2 8/10 6/9 2 3

protection from energy 2 8/10 9/12 3 5
snare 2 8/10 9/12 3 5
speak with plants 2 8/10 9/12 3 5
spike growth 2 8/10 9/12 3 5
summon nature's ally ii 2 8/10 6/9 2 3
wind wall 2 8/10 9/12 3 5

command plants 3 11/12 12/15 4 7
cure moderate wounds 3 11/12 9/12 3 5
darkvision 3 11/12 / - -
diminish plants 3 11/12 9/12 3 5
magic fang greater 3 11/12 9/12 3 5
neutralize poison 3 11/12 9/12 3 5
plant growth 3 11/12 9/12 3 5
reduce animal 3 11/12 6/9 2 3
remove disease 3 11/12 9/12 3 5
repel vermin 3 11/12 12/15 4 7
summon nature's ally iii 3 11/12 9/12 3 5
tree shape 3 11/12 6/9 2 3
water walk 3 11/12 / - -

* /darkvision/ is not on the druid list, but it is on the wizard list
at Wiz2. Assuming the same level for druids it would be available
to rangers at 6/9. If it gets bumped to third level rangers can get
it at 9/12, which is closer to RAW access level.

Similarly, druids don't get /water walk/ but clerics do as Clr3.
It's probably appropriate to keep it at third level, so rangers
would get it at 9/12.


animal growth 4 14/15 15/18 5 9
commune with nature 4 14/15 15/18 5 9


cure serious wounds 4 14/15 12/15 4 7

freedom of movement 4 14/15 12/15 4 7
nondetection 4 14/15 / - -
summon nature's ally iv 4 14/15 12/15 4 7
tree stride 4 14/15 15/18 5 9

* /nondetection/ is not on the druid list, but it's listed as Wiz3 and
Trickery3. Bumping by one level is probably appropriate (hiding
from magical detection is a little non-woodsy), so calling it fourth
level would make it available to rangers at 12/15.

As with paladins, this is a generally good match. It's not perfect, of
course, but if it lets me get rid of a couple of spell lists that don't
really fit with the rest, if it means I can have a fourth level spell
mean about the same thing to everyone, I'm willing to accept it as close
enough.

Matt Frisch

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May 10, 2007, 4:03:02 AM5/10/07
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On Wed, 09 May 2007 21:19:00 GMT, Keith Davies <keith....@kjdavies.org>
scribed into the ether:

>Matt Frisch <matu...@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote:

>> Potentially, since the addition of extra lower level spells starts
>> kicking in at level 11, level 9 spells should be put into the normal
>> progression. That would have the 4th casting appear at 22 instead of
>> 20.
>
>Which, considering you're getting 10th and 11th spells at the same time,
>is a net *gain*.

True. A +1 metamagic 9th level spell is a trade up from a normal 9th level
spell. Not sure why that didn't occur to me originally.

>> Now, there's a not inconsiderable possibility that this will make
>> spellcasters even stronger than they are now. One possibility would be
>> to have the more-than-4 progression start at 21, but then that gives
>> wierdness where spells don't come in increments, but in giant doses.
>> At 21, all spell levels get another casting. Then at 26, all spell
>> levels get the 6th casting. Would make those upgrade levels overly
>> huge.
>
>I like the 'expanded pattern' solution myself. The extra low-level
>spells are nice, but I don't think they really add *that* much to the
>outright power of the character. Normally they need the high-level
>slots (save DCs, raw power) for suitable encounters, the lower-level
>spells are mostly decoration by this point.
>
>I think they're a good idea, mind. They might not make a quantitative
>difference in overall power, but they allow for a little more variety.

Quite a lot of variety, really. When you're 25th level you probably won't
be bothering much with fireballs and lightning bolts, but there's a lot of
third level stuff that is still very useful. Dispel Magic, Circles Against
<Alignment>, Phantom Steed, Tongues, Gust of Wind, Displacement, Blink,
Fly, Gaseous Form, Haste, Water Breathing...these are spells that never go
out of style.

Keith Davies

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May 10, 2007, 5:19:16 AM5/10/07
to
Matt Frisch <matu...@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 09 May 2007 21:19:00 GMT, Keith Davies <keith....@kjdavies.org>
> scribed into the ether:
>
>>Matt Frisch <matu...@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote:
>
>>> Potentially, since the addition of extra lower level spells starts
>>> kicking in at level 11, level 9 spells should be put into the normal
>>> progression. That would have the 4th casting appear at 22 instead of
>>> 20.
>>
>>Which, considering you're getting 10th and 11th spells at the same time,
>>is a net *gain*.
>
> True. A +1 metamagic 9th level spell is a trade up from a normal 9th
> level spell. Not sure why that didn't occur to me originally.

Didn't draw the table out, I expect. I was fairly sure it would work
out that way, but drew the table up to make sure.

>>I like the 'expanded pattern' solution myself. The extra low-level
>>spells are nice, but I don't think they really add *that* much to the
>>outright power of the character. Normally they need the high-level
>>slots (save DCs, raw power) for suitable encounters, the lower-level
>>spells are mostly decoration by this point.
>>
>>I think they're a good idea, mind. They might not make a quantitative
>>difference in overall power, but they allow for a little more variety.
>
> Quite a lot of variety, really. When you're 25th level you probably
> won't be bothering much with fireballs and lightning bolts, but
> there's a lot of third level stuff that is still very useful. Dispel
> Magic, Circles Against <Alignment>, Phantom Steed, Tongues, Gust of
> Wind, Displacement, Blink, Fly, Gaseous Form, Haste, Water
> Breathing...these are spells that never go out of style.

Indeed, a lot of 'utility' stuff down there that can still apply.

A Wiz30 can cast 7 fifth-level spells per day under this model, ignoring
high Int (which he *surely* has), pearls of power (which are *laughably*
cheap given how much treasure he's accumulated -- 25k, vs. the 4.3Mgp
he's expected to have). So, it's quite possible he'd have seven to ten
fifth-level spells prepared (seven base, plus at least two and probably
three for high Int), and he could well have half a dozen pearls of power
(fifth level) available.

That's a *lot* of flexibility. Admittedly, he's more likely to focus
his gear to higher-level stuff... but even nine or ten fifth-level slots
per day gives him lots of room to play.

Justisaur

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May 10, 2007, 6:56:41 PM5/10/07
to
On May 9, 2:19 pm, Keith Davies <keith.dav...@kjdavies.org> wrote:

> I like the 'expanded pattern' solution myself. The extra low-level
> spells are nice, but I don't think they really add *that* much to the
> outright power of the character. Normally they need the high-level
> slots (save DCs, raw power) for suitable encounters, the lower-level
> spells are mostly decoration by this point.

Actually they tend to be a pain in the butt. I hear enough complaints
it's difficult to figure all your spells for a particular day, I don't
think they need more at higher level. I think they should have a top
limit, if they want more of a low level spells, there's always
heightening, pearls of power, or staves.

- Justisaur

Keith Davies

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May 11, 2007, 8:19:14 PM5/11/07
to

Looking at it from a practical perspective, I'm coming to agree with
you.

I appreciate the greater numbers of low-level slots from a pattern
perspective... but it'd be a pain to play. Also, it messes with
something else I'd like to do, so I'm probably going to ditch it -- cap
it at four. In fact, I'm going to apply this to cantrips as well (they
cap at four... but IMC you get a number of bonus cantrips equal to your
ability score bonus, so it ends up with more of them than RAW).

Okay, *long* table coming up now.

level 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
0.5 2 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
1.0 2 1 - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
1.5 3 1 - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
2.0 3 2 - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
2.5 3 2 - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
3.0 3 2 1 - - - - - - - - - - - - -
3.5 3 3 1 - - - - - - - - - - - - -
4.0 3 3 2 - - - - - - - - - - - - -
4.5 4 3 2 - - - - - - - - - - - - -
5.0 4 3 2 1 - - - - - - - - - - - -
5.5 4 3 3 1 - - - - - - - - - - - -
6.0 4 3 3 2 - - - - - - - - - - - -
6.5 4 4 3 2 - - - - - - - - - - - -
7.0 4 4 3 2 1 - - - - - - - - - - -
7.5 4 4 3 3 1 - - - - - - - - - - -
8.0 4 4 3 3 2 - - - - - - - - - - -
8.5 4 4 4 3 2 - - - - - - - - - - -
9.0 4 4 4 3 2 1 - - - - - - - - - -
9.5 4 4 4 3 3 1 - - - - - - - - - -
10.0 4 4 4 3 3 2 - - - - - - - - - -

10.5 4 4 4 4 3 2 - - - - - - - - - -
11.0 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 - - - - - - - - -
11.5 4 4 4 4 3 3 1 - - - - - - - - -
12.0 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 - - - - - - - - -
12.5 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 - - - - - - - - -
13.0 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 - - - - - - - -
13.5 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 1 - - - - - - - -
14.0 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 - - - - - - - -
14.5 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 - - - - - - - -
15.0 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 - - - - - - -
15.5 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 1 - - - - - - -
16.0 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 - - - - - - -
16.5 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 - - - - - - -
17.0 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 - - - - - -
17.5 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 1 - - - - - -
18.0 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 - - - - - -
18.5 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 - - - - - -
19.0 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 - - - - -
19.5 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 1 - - - - -
20.0 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 - - - - -

20.5 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 - - - - -
21.0 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 - - - -
21.5 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 1 - - - -
22.0 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 - - - -
22.5 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 - - - -
23.0 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 - - -
23.5 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 1 - - -
24.0 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 - - -
24.5 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 - - -
25.0 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 - -
25.5 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 1 - -
26.0 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 - -
26.5 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 - -
27.0 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 -
27.5 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 1 -
28.0 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 -
28.5 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 -
29.0 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1
29.5 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 1
30.0 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2


By capping at four, the pattern to determine slots at half levels is
pretty easy to see and apply. At almost *every* half level step you get
one new spell slot (no new slot at 2.0 -> 2.5 because there are no
'level -1 spells'. If you're a fullcaster you always (after fourth
level) get two.

Considering I'm aiming at a unified spellcasting system (I know my post
about it is being ignored) and want caster levels to stack across
classes, having easily-determined half levels helps.

If I go with the more slots at lower levels (continuing past four slots
per spell level) the pattern is much harder to manage. I don't think
I've yet figured it out[1], it's certainly not as easy as this one.

Getting one new slot every half level[2] is pretty easy. It's not like
you're likely to run out of spells if you don't get the lower-level ones
later.

[1] admittedly, I took only a cursory look.
[2] except 2.0 -> 2.5, right

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