What is the best class ?!?!?!?!?
lucifer
: In my opinion the best class of character out there in the AD&D 2nd
: edition campaign is the psionicist. What other character class has the
: healing capabilities of a cleric, the stealth capabilities of a thief,
: the capability to raise their own power to match that of a fighter, and
: can produce effects as powerful if not more, than a wizard. Thats right
: there is none.
At low level they don't really have access to that many powers. When I played
one I found out that if I did anything special I'd run out of PSP [or
whatever] in no time.
I was playing a halfling psionist, and the most useful thing I could do was
turn into a wolverine to fight, and use Dimensional Door a lot to transport
the party.
w `o' luc...@infernal.demon.co.uk -= Lucifer =-
|--O-' "Sometimes there is no comedy... ...no tragedy...
| / \____^ ...only a closing curtain." - Kabuki #1, David Mack
Tim Dickinson
>
> In my opinion the best class of character out there in the AD&D 2nd
>edition campaign is the psionicist. What other character class has the
>healing capabilities of a cleric, the stealth capabilities of a thief,
>the capability to raise their own power to match that of a fighter, and
>can produce effects as powerful if not more, than a wizard. Thats right
>there is none.
>
>level spells to be cast.
>
> There is nothing that the telepathic psionicist doesn't know, there
>is nothing that the psychometabolist can't weasel out of, there is
>nothing that the clairvoyant psionicist can't figure out, there is
>nowhere that the pschoportive psionicist can't go, and there is nothing
>that can get in the way of a psychokinetisist.
>
> I would like to thank those of you who took the time to read this,
>I also welcome any different opinions, or comments on the subject.
*some judicious snips made*
I my opinion, the most munchkin class of character out there in the
AD&D 2nd edition campaign is the psionicist. Why not just use this
class and get rid of all the others? Power, power, POWER!!!
Bwahahahahahaa!!!
I would like to kiss the ass of anyone who read the above and believes
that this person is into roleplaying, and not Monty Haul/slay-the
lich-with-a-thought/munchkinism.
Tim Dickinson
dick...@crl1.crl.aecl.ca
Deanna Hatter
:
: In my opinion the best class of character out there in the AD&D 2nd
: edition campaign is the psionicist. What other character class has the
: healing capabilities of a cleric, the stealth capabilities of a thief,
: the capability to raise their own power to match that of a fighter, and
: can produce effects as powerful if not more, than a wizard. Thats right
: there is none.
: Just to throw more wood into a burning fire, I would like to state
: that they are also the character class which in essence allows tenth
: level spells to be cast. A psionicists ability such as telepathy,
: death field, magnify, stasis field, domination, as well as
: disintegration, makes him a class to be rivaled with.
: There is nothing that the telepathic psionicist doesn't know, there
Except for the things that guy over there with the greenstone
amulet knows...
: is nothing that the psychometabolist can't weasel out of, there is
A closed portable hole comes to mind...
: nothing that the clairvoyant psionicist can't figure out, there is
Except what's hidden in that room with the Protection from
Scrying spell on it...
: nowhere that the pschoportive psionicist can't go, and there is nothing
Except for that area that's protected by a Proof from Teleportation
spell...
: that can get in the way of a psychokinetisist. All in all the
Except a prismatic wall/sphere.
Just a few things that can confound a psionicist. They are POWERFUL,
but NOT ALL POWERFUL.
Jason
John Jones
In article <480qqc$3...@ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> Sasan Behnood wrote:
>Date: 11 Nov 1995 00:30:04 GMT
>From: grun...@ix.netcom.com (Sasan Behnood )
>Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
>Subject: What is the best class ?!?!?!?!?
>
>
>
> In my opinion the best class of character out there in the
AD&D 2nd
>edition campaign is the psionicist. What other character class has
the
>healing capabilities of a cleric, the stealth capabilities of a
thief,
>the capability to raise their own power to match that of a
fighter, and
>can produce effects as powerful if not more, than a wizard. Thats
right
>there is none.
>
In my opinion as a 16 year DM/player, psionics have not been
something that I have ever been comfortable with in the AD&D
system. By your description of the psionicist, he is effectively an
extreme multiclassed character with so many abilities that he does
not need the backup of a party to go adventuring.
> Just to throw more wood into a burning fire, I would like to
state
>that they are also the character class which in essence allows
tenth
>level spells to be cast. A psionicists ability such as telepathy,
>death field, magnify, stasis field, domination, as well as
>disintegration, makes him a class to be rivaled with.
>
In other words, a "Monty Haul/Power Gamer" character. Very
powerful, without apparent weaknesses.
> There is nothing that the telepathic psionicist doesn't know,
there
>is nothing that the psychometabolist can't weasel out of, there is
>nothing that the clairvoyant psionicist can't figure out, there is
>nowhere that the pschoportive psionicist can't go, and there is
nothing
>that can get in the way of a psychokinetisist. All in all the
>psionicist has such a wide variety of capabilities that even a low
>level psionicist can cause problems. And the best thing is that
their
>powers are the most undetectable out there. A mage has to move
his/ her
>arms and speak to cast a spell, much like a cleric. A fighter has
to
>wield a sword, a thief although very stealthy still has to move,
but a
>psionicist doesn't even have to take a breath for his/her power to
take
>effect.
>
Yet again, overpowering, IMHO.
> I would like to thank those of you who took the time to read
this,
>I also welcome any different opinions, or comments on the subject.
>
>
>email me at: Grun...@ix.netcom.com
I have just picked up the Complete Book of Psionics, and have just
started rteading it. Based on the material posted above, it seems
that the Class is POTENTIALLY very powerful....but every class in
the game has their own Achilles' Heel. In the case of the Psi's, it
is the fact that they MUST have uninterrupted sleep to regain PSP's
(real tough in prison or on the road with an adventuring group if
you have to take watch detail).
Sasan Behnood
In my opinion the best class of character out there in the AD&D 2nd
edition campaign is the psionicist. What other character class has the
healing capabilities of a cleric, the stealth capabilities of a thief,
the capability to raise their own power to match that of a fighter, and
can produce effects as powerful if not more, than a wizard. Thats right
there is none.
Just to throw more wood into a burning fire, I would like to state
that they are also the character class which in essence allows tenth
level spells to be cast. A psionicists ability such as telepathy,
death field, magnify, stasis field, domination, as well as
disintegration, makes him a class to be rivaled with.
There is nothing that the telepathic psionicist doesn't know, there
is nothing that the psychometabolist can't weasel out of, there is
nothing that the clairvoyant psionicist can't figure out, there is
nowhere that the pschoportive psionicist can't go, and there is nothing
that can get in the way of a psychokinetisist. All in all the
psionicist has such a wide variety of capabilities that even a low
level psionicist can cause problems. And the best thing is that their
powers are the most undetectable out there. A mage has to move his/ her
arms and speak to cast a spell, much like a cleric. A fighter has to
wield a sword, a thief although very stealthy still has to move, but a
psionicist doesn't even have to take a breath for his/her power to take
effect.
I would like to thank those of you who took the time to read this,
Fabio Rojas
>
>I would like to kiss the ass of anyone who read the above and believes
>that this person is into roleplaying, and not Monty Haul/slay-the
>lich-with-a-thought/munchkinism.
>
>dick...@crl1.crl.aecl.ca
Be nice, Tim. It is a very legitimate question and it is
possible that in many non- monty-haul games,
these issues come up. My games oscillate between
intensive combat and heavy role-playing and the
issue of the overpowered psionicist have come up.
I recently GM a game where there were two psi's,
a psycho-portationist and a telepath/clairivoyant. Basically,
any defense an NPC had was useles - the telepath/clar.
would see what it was and then the psycho-p. person
would just pop behind enemy lines and surpise the
dude. All of this was done well within the
rules and did not require any stretching.
All this was done with only two Pc's.
One solution in a magic intensive world, would
be for most mid-level or high level pc's
to have anti-scrying magic.
Why the psi is the most powerful:
1) has access to all types of powers, he can mimic
any class
2) flexibility, doesn't have to seelct powers
at beginning of the day
3) gets lots of stuff early: gets three powers
at level 1, wizards get one sleep spell
and they are done for the day
4) in champions terms: no focus, wizards lose
their spell books, fighters lose their
swords, theives lose their tools, clerics
lose their holy symbols. A psi can work
in almost any situation. He can be tied up
and still get out.
5) Gets full d6 hit dice, decent THACO and save
and a few weapons. add a little armor.
6) Often, line of sight is the only limitation!
An unprepared Gm can be caught off gaurd by this
kind of stuff. On the other hand, darkness
is a great way to screw up psi's (note that
the sonic sight is an easy way around this).
In the end, as a single class, psi are more powerful -
even if you are not playing "monty-haul" style.
This is not to say that a good Gm can't handle
it, just that he has to pay more attention and
be more careful
-fabio
Ed Glamkowski
:P >From: grun...@ix.netcom.com (Sasan Behnood )
:P In my opinion as a 16 year DM/player, psionics have not been
:P something that I have ever been comfortable with in the AD&D
:P system. By your description of the psionicist, he is effectively an
:P extreme multiclassed character with so many abilities that he does
:P not need the backup of a party to go adventuring.
except that no one psionicist can learn enough sciences
to learn all this stuff, especially given the limitation
that you have to have more sciences in your primary discipline
than in any other.
it would take 3 or so psionicists to really accomplish
everything that is trying to be attributed to one :P
:P > Just to throw more wood into a burning fire, I would like to state
:P >that they are also the character class which in essence allows tenth
:P >level spells to be cast. A psionicists ability such as telepathy,
:P >death field, magnify, stasis field, domination, as well as
:P >disintegration, makes him a class to be rivaled with.
:P In other words, a "Monty Haul/Power Gamer" character. Very
:P powerful, without apparent weaknesses.
none of these are "10th level spells". fully one half of telepathy
is available as the level 2 spell ESP, research a new spell to allow
the two way communication, it would probably come in at 4th or maybe
5th level.
death field is like a death spell, level 6.
stasis field = time stop, level 9.
domination = magic jar, level 5.
disintegrate = disintegrate, level 5(? 6? not 10 in any event ;)
there are plenty of weakness in the class, from the mundane
things such as low hp, few weapons, no worthwhile armor,
poor saving throws, bad THAC0, three prime ability scores.
and then there are other weaknesses - majority of sciences
learned have to me in primary discipline; only 20 sciences to
max at level 20 (compare to number of, say, level 5+ mage spells
a level 20 mage gets, or 4+ spells a priest gets at level 20),
twice as many devotions in a given discipline as sciences;
limited PSP's (just like spell casters are limited by the
need to memorize spells).
it is well balanced by all of these factors.
no one psi can learn everything and be a one man army.
you need at least 2 or 3 to have an army ;)
:P > There is nothing that the telepathic psionicist doesn't know, there
:P >is nothing that the psychometabolist can't weasel out of, there is
:P >nothing that the clairvoyant psionicist can't figure out, there is
:P >nowhere that the pschoportive psionicist can't go, and there is nothing
:P >that can get in the way of a psychokinetisist. All in all the
:P >psionicist has such a wide variety of capabilities that even a low
:P >level psionicist can cause problems. And the best thing is that their
:P >powers are the most undetectable out there. A mage has to move his/ her
:P >arms and speak to cast a spell, much like a cleric. A fighter has to
:P >wield a sword, a thief although very stealthy still has to move, but a
:P >psionicist doesn't even have to take a breath for his/her power to take
:P >effect.
:P Yet again, overpowering, IMHO.
just bear in mind that to have a really good telepath, he will
be very weak in all the other disciplines. to have a really good
psychometabolist, he has to be weak in everything else, etc.
also, psi's can be kept safely captive just be putting a metal
helmet on their head - that blocks all psionic powers :P
in any event, all these powers are easily detectable by another
psionicist...
Neal Dutta
>
> In my opinion the best class of character out there in the AD&D 2nd
>edition campaign is the psionicist. What other character class has the
>healing capabilities of a cleric, the stealth capabilities of a thief,
>the capability to raise their own power to match that of a fighter, and
>can produce effects as powerful if not more, than a wizard. Thats right
>there is none.
Well the healing abilities of a psionocist are rather pathatetic.
Complete Healing is great, but only works on the Psi himself and takes
24 hours. Cell Adjustment is too expensive in PSPs. Psionics are
good for stealth though, they can't really get as good as fighters,
they do have animal affinity and metamorphosis, good for getting
better attacks, but their to-hit rolls still suck big time. I have
yet to see any psionic power duplicate anything in the way of
significant damage, nothing even as good as magic missle at higher
levels. They do have some cool powers, like Ultra-Blast, but with
very hard to make power checks plus saving throws, too much for too
little.
> Just to throw more wood into a burning fire, I would like to state
>that they are also the character class which in essence allows tenth
>level spells to be cast. A psionicists ability such as telepathy,
>death field, magnify, stasis field, domination, as well as
>disintegration, makes him a class to be rivaled with.
Death Field: Only evil characters, otherwise yes, great power. Gotta
be careful about getting friends inside of it though.
Magnify: Can get rather expensive, but quite powerful.
Stasis Field: Good defensive power.
Domination: Charm beats it hands down.
Disintegration: Not as impressive as it looks. Have to make power
check and gets a saving throw, takes a lot of PSPs, 5% chance of it
acting on yourself.
> There is nothing that the telepathic psionicist doesn't know, there
True. Telepathic powers are easy to be abused though. I have become
firmly convinced that Contact + Id Insinuation is just plain munchkin.
I used to think there would be ways to defend against it, but have
been convinced by others that there aren't.
>is nothing that the psychometabolist can't weasel out of, there is]
Quite true.
>nothing that the clairvoyant psionicist can't figure out, there is
I never liked clairvoyance myself.
>nowhere that the pschoportive psionicist can't go, and there is nothing
Quite handy I admit.
>that can get in the way of a psychokinetisist. All in all the
Well psycho-keneisis is very nice, but not much in the way of mass
attacks, though powers like soften, molecular agitation and several
others can be very effective.
>psionicist has such a wide variety of capabilities that even a low
>level psionicist can cause problems. And the best thing is that their
Psionicsts do have a lot of variety, but they aren't terribly
powerful, though their variety does make up for that to a certain
extent. The one exception is telepathy, and those no save high
powerscore telepathic powers are too powerful, allowing a low level
psionicst to take out anything from a 25th level mage to ancient red
dragons in a couple of rounds.
>powers are the most undetectable out there. A mage has to move his/ her
>arms and speak to cast a spell, much like a cleric. A fighter has to
>wield a sword, a thief although very stealthy still has to move, but a
>psionicist doesn't even have to take a breath for his/her power to take
>effect.
Agreed. One of the good things about psionicists.
> I would like to thank those of you who took the time to read this,
>I also welcome any different opinions, or comments on the subject.
No problem, I just gave you some :). Actually psionocists aren't bad
in my opinion, but I like other classes better :).
Neal Dutta
>I have just picked up the Complete Book of Psionics, and have just
>started rteading it. Based on the material posted above, it seems
>that the Class is POTENTIALLY very powerful....but every class in
>the game has their own Achilles' Heel. In the case of the Psi's, it
>is the fact that they MUST have uninterrupted sleep to regain PSP's
>(real tough in prison or on the road with an adventuring group if
>you have to take watch detail).
Well no, psionocists can get back PSPs even if they are just resting
(i.e sitting down, relaxing, not necessarily sleeping). Still
Psionocists are rather weak all and all, the only exception is
telepathy, but telepathy makes them munchkin.
Brock Cusick
players, yes, but so can every class.
A psionicist, and I've played them several times, aren't a lot more
powerful than any other class. Remember, every time a psi wants to do
something, they have to make a power check/MTHACO roll, just like a
fighter's attack. In that respect, a mage is better off, whose spells
_always_ go off (unless they're a Wild M. and it surges). Yes a target
has a sav, but 1/2 the time its for half dam.
The most important thing is to remember that once they run out of PSPs,
they're up the creek, just like a mage who's cast all their spell for the
day, At least a cleric has a decent THACO and armor to fall back on.
Also, presumably you've all the psi hand-book, so look in the back.
What's there? That's right boys & girls, Psi _monsters_. A Psi wakes up
one day on adventure to find all his PSPs gone. Whoops! A brain mole.
Last thing to remember. Do you only put fighters against a high level
mage? Of course not, he'd use a couple fireballs, kill a whole bunch, and
then teleport out. Same with psi. Get an evil psi NPC, and use their own
tactics against them.
Psi really were thought out and playtested. They're not a whole lot
better than any other class, it all dependes on the situation you're in.
Picture : Stuck in cave with 30 angry hobgoblins, you can have either a
10th lvl Clairvoyant, or a 10th lvl Paladin. I know which I'd take.
- Some wierdo in NJ
Triztaanis
> In my opinion the best class of character out there in the AD&D 2nd
>edition campaign is the psionicist. What other character class has the
>healing capabilities of a cleric, the stealth capabilities of a thief,
>the capability to raise their own power to match that of a fighter, and
>can produce effects as powerful if not more, than a wizard. Thats right
>there is none.
Hmmm... A half-elven Ranger/Bard/Cleric can do that and he will have better
THAC0, Saving Throws, can live longer if the party meets a Vampire.
A S&P multiclass character can be better for they can buy class abilities
from all it's classes with the points from all his classes. Say you make
a fighter/cleric, then you will have 15+125=140cp to buy your abilities and
you can buy fighter abilties for all 140 cp if you want (Hmmm... there is not
that much fighter abilities).
//Triztaanis
The Marvelous Magnificent Michael Morris the Manically Mad
I guess I'll add my cheap two cents in. If the DM doesn't like
pscionics (like me) then he can always rule THEY DON'T EXIST!!!!!!
(Like me)
--
/ \//\:mlm...@pop.uky.edu
\ ////:
\MM/ : "Fallen Dreams. The World is little more than a land of
\/ : Fallen Dreams." -Tasha Anne Thoran (FLOWERS IN THE WIND)
Deanna Hatter
: A S&P multiclass character can be better for they can buy class abilities
: from all it's classes with the points from all his classes. Say you make
: a fighter/cleric, then you will have 15+125=140cp to buy your abilities and
: you can buy fighter abilties for all 140 cp if you want (Hmmm... there is not
: that much fighter abilities).
Actually, no you can't. YOu can only spend the points for that class on
that class. So you can't spend the 140 points on fighter stuff.
Jason
James Shields
>pscionics (like me) then he can always rule THEY DON'T EXIST!!!!!!
I agree. And, quite honestly, there is no "best" class.
James
J.West=Rincewind
> In my opinion the best class of character out there in the AD&D 2nd
> edition campaign is the psionicist. What other character class has the
> healing capabilities of a cleric, the stealth capabilities of a thief,
> the capability to raise their own power to match that of a fighter, and
> can produce effects as powerful if not more, than a wizard. Thats right
> there is none.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I disagree completely. I, personally, ran a Mage/Cleric of Mask. There
you go. Mage spellcasting, cleric healing, theif abilities, and some nice
fighting ability inherent to the cleric class. The combination of all of
those abilities made it a kick-ass character. Mage magic and Cleric magic
can combine in _scary_ ways.
- J
_____________________________________________________________________
O _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ )
) _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ (
( _/_/ )
) Jay West (Rincewind) _/_/ "Watch the sun go down, see the (
( York University (1st yr) _/_/ moon rise up. Drink a champagne )
) Bramalea, Ontario _/_/ toast in a plastic cup." (
( _/_/ - Do you wanna, huh? )
) _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ e-mail : cs94...@ariel.cs.yorku.ca (
O_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/________________________________________)
Barbara Haddad
hit points; THACO; can spell cast and has the option to wear any armor (&
still spell cast).
If one uses clerical _kits_ then (if you 'munchkin-ize' :0 you can
also have some of the better edged weapons (depending upon the deity
chosen), although this usually means armor choice drops to chain armor --
with a benefit being that most clerical kits add a few benefits [free
spells that can be cast].
------------------------------------------------------------------
Barbara Haddad - mel...@shakala.com
Shakala BBS (ClanZen Radio Network) Sunnyvale, CA +1-408-734-2289
Barbara Haddad
The above is not _a_ class (the way _I_ read the header, the
question is 'what is the best single class'). The above would fall in
the category of 'what is the best multi-class' :)
pcs$...@altair.selu.edu
> In article <480qqc$3...@ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> grun...@ix.netcom.com (Sasan Behnood ) writes:
>>
>>edition campaign is the psionicist. What other character class has the
>>healing capabilities of a cleric, the stealth capabilities of a thief,
>>the capability to raise their own power to match that of a fighter, and
>>can produce effects as powerful if not more, than a wizard. Thats right
>>there is none.
>>
> I my opinion, the most munchkin class of character out there in the
> AD&D 2nd edition campaign is the psionicist. Why not just use this
> class and get rid of all the others? Power, power, POWER!!!
>
> Bwahahahahahaa!!!
>
> I would like to kiss the ass of anyone who read the above and believes
> that this person is into roleplaying, and not Monty Haul/slay-the
> lich-with-a-thought/munchkinism.
I don't know whether the above person was a roleplayer or not, but
for the record, a friend of mine roleplayed a psionicist Very well,
and he didn't unbalance the game at all. The fighter mage and the
ranger unbalanced things more than he did. And the fact that rolling
a 20 can pretty much ruin any psionicist's day, not to mention, in some cases,
his entire life, tends to even out the powerful stuff. The first roll he made
to use a power was a 20 and nearly killed him. The character was a
psychiatrist, and kept psychoanalyzing the party members :)
Asking the ranger how he felt about his mother caused a little party conflict,
but for the most part he was a cool character to have around.
Any class can be just fine if they are role-played properly.
I'm partial to bards, myself.
Bridget Farace
bfa...@selu.edu
What good is opening your mind, if in doing so, you close your heart
to your greatest ally in the universe? Is it worth so much to you to
realize that you are naked?
The Marvelous Magnificent Michael Morris the Manically Mad
Hate to say it, but that sounds like the dragon Smaug complaining about
his missing scale to me.
Ed Glamkowski
there are two key factors involved - #1, the taste
of the player; #2, how good that player is.
any class can beat any other class depending on the
skill level of the players involved; that is a much
more important determining factor than is the actualy
choice of class.
in any event, in order for an adventure to be successful,
*all* classes should properly pull their weight -
fighters distract the monsters so the spell casters can
cast the powerful offensive spells; priests offer healing
and protective capabilities (usually) to allow the party
to remain a viable force for a longer period of time,
thieves offer valuable scouting/recon and the ability
to bypass those annoying traps and locks, and provide
a powerful first strike ability (backstab).
each class also has its weakenesses - mages can't last for
long in combat on their own (especially if they are out of
spells), clerics don't have much in the way of offensive
magic, and their fighting abilities are only nominally
better than average (only nominally cause of their limited
weapon selection), fighters can't take only the most powerful
monsters (relative to their level) and expect to win without
some sort of magic to back him up, thieves won't last for
long in combat due to both lack of combat ability and spells.
everyone is important and each is powerful in their own way.
some players are more naturally suited to certain character
classes and will do better playing those classes than others.
:P
Jeffery Ray Dubois
I say that the best charater class is the first edition Barbarian,
now there is a class for ya, 12d per level, outrageous dex bonus
with no bulk armor, great con bonus.
Just my two cents
Jeff DuBois
Tim Dickinson
>>I would like to kiss the ass of anyone who read the above and believes
>>that this person is into roleplaying, and not Monty Haul/slay-the
>>lich-with-a-thought/munchkinism.
>
>restricted to role-players... all gamers are welcome..
Never said it was. Perhaps my feelings are that anyone who isn't
role-playing is wasting the potential of the game. Perhaps the
orginal poster, so taken by the Character Tank of the
Psionicist, is playing checkers with chess pieces. Shouldn't
someone tell them so?
Tim Dickinson
dick...@crl1.crl.aecl.ca
Khammao Racksasouk
: On 11 Nov 1995, Sasan Behnood wrote:
: > In my opinion the best class of character out there in the AD&D 2nd
: > edition campaign is the psionicist. What other character class has the
: > healing capabilities of a cleric, the stealth capabilities of a thief,
: > the capability to raise their own power to match that of a fighter, and
: > can produce effects as powerful if not more, than a wizard. Thats right
: > there is none.
: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: I disagree completely. I, personally, ran a Mage/Cleric of Mask. There
: you go. Mage spellcasting, cleric healing, theif abilities, and some nice
: fighting ability inherent to the cleric class. The combination of all of
: those abilities made it a kick-ass character. Mage magic and Cleric magic
: can combine in _scary_ ways.
: - J
: _____________________________________________________________________
: O _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ )
: ) _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ (
: ( _/_/ )
: ) Jay West (Rincewind) _/_/ "Watch the sun go down, see the (
: ( York University (1st yr) _/_/ moon rise up. Drink a champagne )
: ) Bramalea, Ontario _/_/ toast in a plastic cup." (
: ( _/_/ - Do you wanna, huh? )
: ) _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ e-mail : cs94...@ariel.cs.yorku.ca (
: O_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/________________________________________)
:
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The Marvelous Magnificent Michael Morris the Manically Mad
>On 11 Nov 1995, Sasan Behnood wrote:
>
>> In my opinion the best class of character out there in the AD&D 2nd
>> edition campaign is the psionicist. What other character class has the
>> healing capabilities of a cleric, the stealth capabilities of a thief,
>> the capability to raise their own power to match that of a fighter, and
>> can produce effects as powerful if not more, than a wizard. Thats right
>> there is none.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> I disagree completely. I, personally, ran a Mage/Cleric of Mask. There
>you go. Mage spellcasting, cleric healing, theif abilities, and some nice
>fighting ability inherent to the cleric class. The combination of all of
>those abilities made it a kick-ass character. Mage magic and Cleric magic
>can combine in _scary_ ways.
> - J
normal character if the initial attack roll (against AC 10 - dex no
doubt) succeeds
Spectral Hand
Harm (reverse of heal)
Power Word: Kill
Rest in pieces
--
/ \//\:mlm...@pop.uky.edu
\ ////:
\MM/ : "Those we love most hurt us most." -- from my book,
\/ : Flowers in the Wind.
Robert Wedlock
writes: > I agree. And, quite honestly, there is no "best" class.
D&D is a fighters game.
Robert Wedlock
egla...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Ed Glamkowski) writes: > in any event, in
order for an adventure to be successful, > *all* classes should properly pull
their weight - > fighters distract the monsters so the spell casters can
> cast the powerful offensive spells; priests offer healing
Eh? If the fighters are down there 'distracting' the monsters, what
powerful magic are the mages casting? Fireball? Cloudkill? Chaos?
How do the mages get away with fireballing the fighters?
> spells), clerics don't have much in the way of offensive
> magic, and their fighting abilities are only nominally
> better than average (only nominally cause of their limited
> weapon selection), fighters can't take only the most powerful
I think it has more to do with the lack of multiple attacks per round
and thac0.
> some sort of magic to back him up, thieves won't last for
> long in combat due to both lack of combat ability and spells.
And hitpoints
Ed Glamkowski
:P Actually, the Skills & Powers supplement has lowered the power of
:P psionicists. So dramatically, in fact, that the munchkin in our group made a
:P fighter instead of a psionicist!
heh... can't blame him though - the modifications in S&P to
the psis make them all but useless to play as they are written
therein. (the problem with the attack modes vs. eliminating all
enemy PSP's has already been dealt with in detail on this group).
anyone who plays a psi straight out of S&P is nothing less than
a walking bullseye :P
play the psionicist handbook if you want psis :)
Michael Brown
>A S&P multiclass character can be better for they can buy class abilities
>from all it's classes with the points from all his classes. Say you make
No.
-Michael
Dru A Smith
]dne Brunborg <brun...@alkymi.unit.no> wrote:
>[snip]
>
>>Mage/clerics have this particulary scary combination that will kill any
>>normal character if the initial attack roll (against AC 10 - dex no
>>doubt) succeeds
>>
>>Spectral Hand
>>Harm (reverse of heal)
>>Power Word: Kill
>>
>>Rest in pieces
>
>
> 1) you cannot cast 6th level spells using spectral hand. Maximum is 4th
> level spells.
IDHTPHBIFOM so i assume this is right
> 2) many DMs that I know of (including me) would not allow priest spells
> to be transfered via spectral hand
None that i know of use this restriction. But i saw the argument
go on for weeks, and won't start it again.
> 3) most DMs do not allow harm spells to be cast by good characters, and
>do not allow evil PCs
Then i guess (for part a) that i'm not "most". a good priest can
certainly cast "harm" if it's self defense. And while it's true that
evil PC's aren't common, it sometimes happens and can make the game a little
spicier.
>
>Of these only 1) actually prevents the combination, but that is enough.
Fair enough.
Dru Smith
----------------------------------------------------------------
*** starting 10/1/95, new e-mail: d...@charybdis.ngs.noaa.gov ***
"...all life is only a set of pictures in the brain, among which
there is no difference betwixt those born of real things and
those born of inward dreamings, and no cause to value the one
above the other"
-- H.P. Lovecraft, The Silver Key
HARTMANN
There is no absolute 'best class'. They are all pretty equally balanced with each
other, and each is more useful in certain specific situations. The best 'class' for
surviving adventures would have to be a fighter/cleric/magic-user/thief. Admittedly
a paladin or ranger might be more successful than a fighter, but their restrictions
are pretty extensive.
How about: What is the _worst_ kit option?
Ty
]dne Brunborg
>Mage/clerics have this particulary scary combination that will kill any
>normal character if the initial attack roll (against AC 10 - dex no
>doubt) succeeds
>
>Spectral Hand
>Harm (reverse of heal)
>Power Word: Kill
>
>Rest in pieces
-apart from the facts that
1) you cannot cast 6th level spells using spectral hand. Maximum is 4th
level spells.
2) many DMs that I know of (including me) would not allow priest spells
to be transfered via spectral hand
3) most DMs do not allow harm spells to be cast by good characters, and
do not allow evil PCs
Of these only 1) actually prevents the combination, but that is enough.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ o + +
+ Adne Brunborg + No matter how subtle the wizard, a +
+ brun...@alkymi.unit.no + knife in the shoulder blades will +
+ NTH, Trondheim, Norway + seriously cramp his style +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
http://www.stud.unit.no/~brunborg/
Swordhawk Rules Version 2.0Beta available
Bradley Smith
Michael Brown <mik...@thurston.ME.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>From: Triztaanis <md4...@mdstud.chalmers.se>
> No.
Could you not waste bandwidth with such a long response? ;)
Seriously, I've done the same thing (not like any of my DMs want
to touch S&P, since they think it leads to min/maxing), but that's just
been an assumption on my part. Where does it say so, since I'm too lazy
to go pick up my S&P (since I won't have it available for another 3 hours)?
Brad
--
************************************************************************
*The Few....The Proud....The Puppybrothers! Bradley N. Smith *
* Look for a recruiter near you! har...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu*
************************************************************************
James Gardner Wheaton
There was a f/M-U/C/T in Undermountain boxed set II. Kind of a tough
character (alhtough advancment and hit points aren't great).
The worst...how about a diviner? I forget the oppisition school, but
in a combat heavy campaign,they're in trouble...
i know dm's who make halflings victims, owing
to their limited size.. halfling kabobs, halfling tossing bu giants, that
sort of thing. Peope with bad experiences reading tolkein, I guess.
Or, a few surprises for worst kits/class.
1.) Drow: loss of magic abilties when above ground, combat detractions
in light, hated by all civilzied peopel.
2. red Wizard of Thay: bonus spells, but sworn enemies of all that
is good.
3.) duergar: see drow.
4.) barbarian: no magic? no assocaiton with magic users? wow.
What is the worst kit depends priamrily on style fo play, and how
many rules are taken seriously. If I were Dm, Drizzit would get killed the
first time he looked at Silverymoon by a half dozen high level F/MU
drow hunters on griffons or unciorns.
james wheaton
Neal Dutta
>> 3) most DMs do not allow harm spells to be cast by good characters, and
>>do not allow evil PCs
> Then i guess (for part a) that i'm not "most". a good priest can
>certainly cast "harm" if it's self defense. And while it's true that
>evil PC's aren't common, it sometimes happens and can make the game a little
>spicier.
Here's a question, what about neutral priests? I don't mean druids,
just priests of some neutral diety. Would those DMs who ban good
priests from casting the reverse of healing spells allow neutral
priests to cast healing and harm?
Michael Sandy
A lot of commentary about how the powers the psionicist have are unreliable
in combat because he must roll to succeed and the target usually gets a
saving throw.
The telepathy powers also take at least two rounds to have an effect, and
then a third for the target to do a mind controlled action or respond to
an illusion.
What makes a Psionicist potent is what they can do out of combat on
_willing_ subjects. A 7th level Psi can have Psychic Surgery, Psychic Drain
and receptacle. Knock someone out, cast Psychic Drain, and you have all
the psi points you need to psychic surgery a permanent effect on him.
Of course, that is right up there with casting Necromancy spells, but
the ability to suck PSPs from opponents you haven't finished off yet to
power healing is a _nasty_ option.
Having a Psychic Surgery Contact on each member of the party is really
useful. If somebody is captured: Sight Link, Teleport to the rescue
when they aren't being watched, then kick butt. Psychic Surgery Mindlink
is a bit trickier, a greater invasion of privacy, but great for
silent planning and communication. With Mindlink and Teleport you can
separate your party and run a noisy decoy operation with _great_ timing.
The power Dim Door is great for sniping and ambushing. Create dim door
directly over enemy and drop all sorts of stuff at a mere -4 to hit on
him without chance of reply. Really amusing in combination with a
magic User's Rope Trick spell.
At low levels, the healing power per day of a Psionicist can be a _lot_
greater than that of a cleric.
With the Rejuvenation proficiency, the Psionicist can use 12x24 PSPs a
day, (well, a bit less). Call it 240 PSPs. That is enough to heal 48
hit points per day. By comparison, a 3rd level cleric with an 18 wisdom
can cast 4 CLW and 3 Aids for 7d8. Or about 35 hit points. Granted,
with the S&P proficiency healing mastery, or whatever it is called, that
rises to 56 hit points.
And if he is called upon to fly a spelljammer ship, he can always can to
be a specialist priest with restrictions. Some gods don't grant the power
to turn undead, I'm sure some don't grant the power to power helms.
Michael Sandy
Stephane Picard
|>
|> I say that the best charater class is the first edition Barbarian,
|> now there is a class for ya, 12d per level, outrageous dex bonus
|> with no bulk armor, great con bonus.
Good class if your a power player who likes to roll-play.
Michael Brown
: No
>Could you not waste bandwidth with such a long response? ;)
No.
>Seriously, I've done the same thing (not like any of my DMs want
>to touch S&P, since they think it leads to min/maxing), but that's just
>been an assumption on my part. Where does it say so, since I'm too lazy
>to go pick up my S&P (since I won't have it available for another 3 hours)?
The book is very sketchy on MC characters, but the logic is thus-
why would the CP for one class translate into another? Why
would I be a *better* fighter because I was part priest?
(all things considered, I ought to be worse!).
The cp costs for each class' abilities are *not* scaled the same,
and it would be a huge mistake to shift them back and forth.
Case in point - the class with the most CP (cleric) needs less
xp to advance than the one with the fewest (fighter)!
-Michael
Silver Wolf
: In article <480qqc$3...@ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> grun...@ix.netcom.com (Sasan Behnood ) writes:
: >
: > In my opinion the best class of character out there in the AD&D 2nd
: >edition campaign is the psionicist. What other character class has the
: >healing capabilities of a cleric, the stealth capabilities of a thief,
: >the capability to raise their own power to match that of a fighter, and
: >can produce effects as powerful if not more, than a wizard. Thats right
: >there is none.
: >that they are also the character class which in essence allows tenth
: >level spells to be cast.
: >
: > There is nothing that the telepathic psionicist doesn't know, there
: >is nothing that the psychometabolist can't weasel out of, there is
: >nothing that the clairvoyant psionicist can't figure out, there is
: >nowhere that the pschoportive psionicist can't go, and there is nothing
: >that can get in the way of a psychokinetisist.
: >
: > I would like to thank those of you who took the time to read this,
: >I also welcome any different opinions, or comments on the subject.
:
: *some judicious snips made*
:
: I my opinion, the most munchkin class of character out there in the
: AD&D 2nd edition campaign is the psionicist. Why not just use this
:
: Bwahahahahahaa!!!
: I would like to kiss the ass of anyone who read the above and believes
: lich-with-a-thought/munchkinism.
I have to agree that probably this guy should look for or create
a new munchkin class for himself and all others. ie Stats at all
at 18, all know spells, cleric, mage and otherwise. All known skills
at 99%, d20 hit points, saving throws at 1. However most importantly
1000 exp to level.
Cabal the psychotic dwarf (Charisma 7)
:
pcs$...@altair.selu.edu
> Hey guys, has anybody else realized that this is a trick question?
>
> There is no absolute 'best class'. They are all pretty equally balanced with each
> other, and each is more useful in certain specific situations. The best 'class' for
> surviving adventures would have to be a fighter/cleric/magic-user/thief. Admittedly
> a paladin or ranger might be more successful than a fighter, but their restrictions
> are pretty extensive.
>
> How about: What is the _worst_ kit option?
in the Thief's handbook. Second least would be the Savage kit in Fighter's
handbook. A beggar starts with 3d4 gold pieces, get penalties for wearing
any armor at all, penalties for looking like anything but a poor, pathetic,
grubby little loser. They get -2 reactions for NPCs who aren't thieves.
They get penalties to thier find/remove traps and open locks skills, so don't
bother with one in a dungeon crawl. The weapon they can start with is more
restricted than the average thief. bow and short swords are not options.
or anything they can't afford. Their only benefit is being a little better
at picking pockets and some bonus NWPs (begging, disguise, information
gathering, and observation)
A savage starts with no money at all. His starting weapons are made of crude
materials like stone and bone and leather (make saves vs crushing blow every
time you hit with em). It's poor roleplaying to ever use any other sort
of weapon. gets penalties for wearing anything other than his tribal
clothing. Only benefits are bonus NWPs(Direction sense, weather sense,
Endurance, and survival), and one special ability that can be used once a day.
He must choose from Alarm, Detect Magic, Animal friendship, or detect evil.
Not really worth the penalties, IMO. If I want to play a fighter, I want to
play something that can actually fight well and wear actual armor. If
I want something that can wear no armor, and use only pathetic weapons,
and can cast one spell a day, I'll play a mage. At least they've got
room for improvement. Unless i'm in the mood for a challenge.
Bridget Farace
bfa...@selu.edu
What good is opening your mind, if in doing so, you close your heart
to your greatest ally in the universe? Is it worth so much to you to
realize that you are naked?
>
> Ty
>
>
chad walstrom
Ok, I'm going to write a little about the stuff that most people ignore when
playing characters in DND. Its the topic of roll playing...You ask what the
best class is, I say it's the one that you can roll play best. Your goals as
a character are not to hack-and-slash, but to create an enjoyable storyline.
You are the participants of book creation, basically. Play your characters
as they would appear as unique individuals. The best class depends on your
mood at the time and what you want to accoplish; even possibly reflect a bit
on who you are.
Currently, I am playing a Thief-Scout/Fighter who loves to fight with
daggers. When he see's danger...he's right out there in front, but he's also
intelligent and knows when he's outmatched. He definitely has his
weaknesses, but his character personality is very strong and brings life to
the campaign. No hack-n-slash here, folks. No munchkinism.
Want inventive thieving? Try a Gnome Thief/Illusionist.
Want an evangelic cleric who loves his ale? Play a cleric of a war god who
has an affinity to pubs! Want a munchkin...roll all 18's and give yourself
12 wild psionic abilitys, who can cast level 9 spells at level 13 because his
father imbibed knowledge via a Vulcan mind meld. What's the best
class...play and find out.
Chewie
--
######################################################################
# Chad Walstrom # Too low they build, * * #
# U-of-MN: Duluth # * who build beneath the stars. #
# Major: Biochem/Molecular Bio # ** * * -Edward Young #
# e-mail: cwal...@ub.d.umn.edu # * ** * * * * #
######################################################################
Scott Milne
>On 16 Nov 1995, HARTMANN wrote:
>>
>> How about: What is the _worst_ kit option?
>>
>> Ty
> The worst...how about a diviner? I forget the oppisition school, but
>in a combat heavy campaign,they're in trouble...
Diviners are actually pretty good - they still have access to
Invocation/Evocation for those damaging thingeys, and those information
spells can mean the difference between life and death for a party. . .
Anyone remember the great hall in G1 "The Steading of the Hill Giant
Chief"? Through those double doors was death waiting to happen to an
unprepared party - giants by the score. but with clairvoyance, and proper
preperations. . .
IMHO, diviners are amongst the BEST specialty mages - their bonus spells
are ones that could often save parties lives, but (erhem) REAL mages
seldom take due to fixation with more explosive spells
Scott Milne
Michael Rudnin
Hi, IMHO there is _no_ best class. Every class has its own
special powers that allow it to do things that no other class can
do (or at the least, better than any other class can do them). The
Warrior can fight, the Wizard can cast magic spells, the Rogue can
use several special thieving abilities, the Priest can cast clerical
spells and the Psionicist can use psychic powers. Each class can do
its own thing. Besides which - if one class was better than any of
the others, then that class would overrun the others and cause their
mass extinction. There is a balance between the classes and when all
of different classes work together, it can be an awe-inspiring event.
Also to be noted: most people prefer to play a specific class and
prefer that class above all others - that is their individual choice
(my preference is the Wizard). When a party has all of the classes
represented, then that it when they can do the most things and when
one or more of the classes is absent, then that is when trouble (and
disasterous, catastrophic calamities) usually strikes.
Mike
Neal Dutta
>Magic missile, lightning bolt (I think that only affects a single being), death
No way, Lightning bolt affects everyone within either a 5' wide by 80'
long path or a 10' wide by 40' long path, aim it right at a group of
enemies and you can cause a LOT of static cling :). Of course you
can use it against one create if you aim it right, and are sure that
they aren't any walls behind them, don't want it to rebound back to
you.
>For too long people associate the power of a spell by how much damage it can do
>to an opponent, but this is obviously not the case: spectral hand has to be one
Spectral Hand? Why? For the +2 bonus to hit on touch spells? Useful
certainly, but personally I prefer taking tumbling, +2 to hit on an
unarmed attack, and you certainly aren't armed when attacking with a
touch spell! :)
Ranadip Adhikari
class is powerful enough to unbalance the game to the point where
everyone wants to play paladins or mages or whatever. End of discussion.
--
----------- GOD POUNDS HIS NAILS ------------
- Wolf
Michael Sandy
Kender psionicists: primary or secondary discipline in Psychoportation.
"They're *EVERYWHERE*!"
Yan Glina
: Scary things to see in the universe:
: Kender psionicists: primary or secondary discipline in Psychoportation.
: "They're *EVERYWHERE*!"
Nope. A Kender Wild Mage/Psychoporter with a Wand of Wonder.
"They're *EVERYWHERE* and they're pointing at...*ME* <insert scream of
absolute terror here>"
-The Future Isn't What It Used To Be.
pen...@rapidramp.com
the AD&D 1 bard was a great option
During low levels, you were survivable.
Just as you got 3/2 (or 2/1 with UA specialization), you could switch to
stealth mode. Plus, you were about out of d8s for hit points anyway. Now,
not only do you have lots of hit points, you can backstab and sneak
around. Etc. Then, later on, you get spells and special abilities, PLUS a
job skill and great roleplaying opportunities. I have a 12th level bard
from under the old rules that stayed to 7/7 in fighter/thief - the
character is great to play because you've almost always got three viable
options for any situation.