TSR is back... unfortunately

[Spalls Hurgenson]

So, TSR Inc is back, and Wizards of the Coast is suing them.*

You know, when I first saw that headline, I was ready to get upset;
here (I thought to myself) was another example of a big corporation
stomping on a littler one, in an industry where the little ones are
usually the source of the most imaginative material. I was ready to be
outraged; how dare WotC?

Because - not having read the article yet - I just assumed that this
new TSR had some ties to the old one; it just stood to reason that it
was made up of members of the old crew: might there be a Blume,
Arneson, Gygax, or Greenwood involved? Surely it was some of the old
guard who were trying to revive some of the old spirit that created
such revered licenses as Ravenloft or Greyhawk, bringing back a bit of
the magic and innovation that seems so lacking from official Wizards
of the Coast products.

Yeah, it turned out it wasn't any of that. It turns out the current
owner snagged the name because Wizards of the Coast was a bit careless
in maintaining their trademarks, and the new owner was a bit of a
racist prick. It turns out that - in the end - I'm actually rooting
for the big corporation to stomp down hard on the little one. Who'd
have expected that?

But I guess that's why its important to read the whole story before
making assumptions. Still, it's amazing how evocative the TSR license
remains (at least to old timers like myself); for all the numerous
flaws and problems of the company and its products, it did feel a lot
more magical than ever did Wizards, who always seemed to put the
business before the fun (well, IMHO. Feel free to disagree). I'm
actually surprised WotC never capitalized on the nostalgic value of
that trademark... and even less that they let some schnook steal it
out from under them.

Whether Wizards will succeed in their suit is up in the air; it
probably doesn't help that they have admitted fault in keeping up with
the paperwork regarding their ownership of the TSR (and Star
Frontiers) names. But I wish them luck regardless... or at the very
least, hope LaNasa (the current owner of the mark) is forced to sell
it to better custodians. Maybe some of the TSR old guard I mentioned
above. Now wouldn't that be a natural 20 for gamers everywhere?



======================
* article
https://www.polygon.com/tabletop-games/23349686/dnd-wizards-of-the-coast-vs-nutsr-tsr-justin-lanasa-racist-transphobic-star-frontiers

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Spalls Hurgenson <spallsh...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:ups4ihl9a0qvf9pa0...@4ax.com:

>
> So, TSR Inc is back, and Wizards of the Coast is suing them.*
>
> You know, when I first saw that headline, I was ready to get
> upset; here (I thought to myself) was another example of a big
> corporation stomping on a littler one, in an industry where the
> little ones are usually the source of the most imaginative
> material. I was ready to be outraged; how dare WotC?
>
> Because - not having read the article yet - I just assumed that
> this new TSR had some ties to the old one; it just stood to
> reason that it was made up of members of the old crew: might
> there be a Blume, Arneson, Gygax, or Greenwood involved? Surely
> it was some of the old guard who were trying to revive some of
> the old spirit that created such revered licenses as Ravenloft
> or Greyhawk, bringing back a bit of the magic and innovation
> that seems so lacking from official Wizards of the Coast
> products.

Actually, one of the founders is, in fact, Ernie Gygax, Gary's son.

Not that it matters. With Hasbro let the trademark lapse, or they
didn't. What you and I think on that is irrelevant. Only the jury's
opinion matters.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Spalls Hurgenson]

On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 09:12:46 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
<taus...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Not that it matters. With Hasbro let the trademark lapse, or they
>didn't. What you and I think on that is irrelevant. Only the jury's
>opinion matters.

As I said, Wizards will have a hard time making their case given they
essentially abandoned the mark. It isn't completely hopeless, since
they were still /using/ the IP, which does give them some leverage.

(It's not quite the same, but can be thought of a conflict between a
website's previous owner, and someone who swooped in and grabbed the
domain because the first guy was late with his payments to the
registrar. The courts can and have ruled either way in such cases.)

Still, whichever way it goes in the court of law, I don't think the
discussion on the topic is irrelevant. At the very least it lets
people know that this new "TSR Games" not only has nothing to do with
"Wizards of the Coast", but that they probably don't want to do
business with someone as racist and homobphobic as LaNasa is reputed
to be.

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Spalls Hurgenson <spallsh...@gmail.com> wrote in

news:2u07ih97si249v20f...@4ax.com:

> On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 09:12:46 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
> Kujisalimisha <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Not that it matters. With Hasbro let the trademark lapse, or
>>they didn't. What you and I think on that is irrelevant. Only
>>the jury's opinion matters.
>
> As I said, Wizards will have a hard time making their case given
> they essentially abandoned the mark. It isn't completely
> hopeless, since they were still /using/ the IP, which does give
> them some leverage.

They're on firm ground on copyright enforcement. But that only
covers copying text (or art) directly. Game systems aren't
protected (and, other than a really ridiculous M:tG thing, aren't
generally patentned).

So, by the ltter of the law, a version of Star Frontiers that is
*exactly* the same game, but rewritten in different words, should
be fine.

The trademark claim would be far more easily enforced - if they
hadn't screwed it up. But trademarks have to be defended, and have
to be used, and so on. They screwed it up. From what we, the
general public, can see so far, the don't have much of a case.

>
> (It's not quite the same, but can be thought of a conflict
> between a website's previous owner, and someone who swooped in
> and grabbed the domain because the first guy was late with his
> payments to the registrar. The courts can and have ruled either
> way in such cases.)

Domain names are their own flavor of hell, with rules all their
own.

>
> Still, whichever way it goes in the court of law, I don't think
> the discussion on the topic is irrelevant. At the very least it
> lets people know that this new "TSR Games" not only has nothing
> to do with "Wizards of the Coast", but that they probably don't
> want to do business with someone as racist and homobphobic as
> LaNasa is reputed to be.
>

Because, of course, to a lefty, accusations, especially of racism
and homophobis, are automatically 100% accurate at all times,
because it is literally impossible for a lefty to be wrong in any
way. Just ask a lefty.

[Spalls Hurgenson]

On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 14:49:37 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
<taus...@gmail.com> wrote:

>The trademark claim would be far more easily enforced - if they
>hadn't screwed it up. But trademarks have to be defended, and have
>to be used, and so on. They screwed it up. From what we, the
>general public, can see so far, the don't have much of a case.

Actually, Wizards /does/ potentially have a case. There's such a thing
as "common law right" to the trademark* if the previous owner is still
using it. In a sense, that use /is/ a continued defense of that
trademark, even if it hasn't the legal paperwork. It's a harder road
to travel, but this is the argument that WotC is making. Cases have
gone either way.

(The TSR mark might be the harder to protect, since I don't know how
much use that gets, but AFAIK there are digital versions of the
original Star Frontiers game that are still being sold, and if that's
the case, those are definitely done with license from Wizards).

>> Still, whichever way it goes in the court of law, I don't think
>> the discussion on the topic is irrelevant. At the very least it
>> lets people know that this new "TSR Games" not only has nothing
>> to do with "Wizards of the Coast", but that they probably don't
>> want to do business with someone as racist and homobphobic as
>> LaNasa is reputed to be.

>Because, of course, to a lefty, accusations, especially of racism
>and homophobis, are automatically 100% accurate at all times,
>because it is literally impossible for a lefty to be wrong in any
>way. Just ask a lefty.

Alright, you got me. It was a pretty good troll too; I was fooled
until the last bit. I give it 4.8 out of 5 bridges on the trollometer.



But for those actually interested in the topic, here's a quote from
the leaked copy of Star Frontiers New Genesis (please note: this is
THEIR words, not mine):

"* Negro (Sub-race Ulfar) (Humanoid class) - Tall, thick bodied, dark
skinned even purle dark, brown-eye race with large strength average
intelligence, All attributes in the 10+ range except intelligence
which is maximum a +9
* Nordic (Ulfar) (Humanoid Class) tall blonde, blue-eyed race with
exceptional attributes and powers All attributes in the 13+ range"

Note this was from the legal filing submitted by Wizards of the Coast,
so its fairly unlikely to be something they just made up. They also
point out to various transphobic and homophobic comments in the
manuscript that are attributed to LaNasa. So it's not just unfounded
accusations.




================
* https://www.upcounsel.com/common-law-trademark

[Ninapenda Jibini]

Spalls Hurgenson <spallsh...@gmail.com> wrote in

news:r6e7ihto76ncsk6vk...@4ax.com:

> On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 14:49:37 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
> Kujisalimisha <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>The trademark claim would be far more easily enforced - if they
>>hadn't screwed it up. But trademarks have to be defended, and
>>have to be used, and so on. They screwed it up. From what we,
>>the general public, can see so far, the don't have much of a
>>case.
>
> Actually, Wizards /does/ potentially have a case. There's such a
> thing as "common law right" to the trademark* if the previous
> owner is still using it. In a sense, that use /is/ a continued
> defense of that trademark, even if it hasn't the legal
> paperwork. It's a harder road to travel, but this is the
> argument that WotC is making. Cases have gone either way.

Except they haven't really been using it. The other company has
been around for some time, or maybe it was a *different* new "TSR"
that published Top Secret: New World Order, but they've failed to
defend it.

In any event, it's a decison for the jury to make, and our opinions
don't matter. (Nor do either of us, or the general public, have
anything like complete, or even vaguely reliable, information.)

>
> (The TSR mark might be the harder to protect, since I don't
> know how much use that gets, but AFAIK there are digital
> versions of the original Star Frontiers game that are still
> being sold, and if that's the case, those are definitely done
> with license from Wizards).

Yeah, but they weren't offered until well after any trademarks on
them had been diluted, probably to the point of not being
defensible, by other people making copies available.

>
>>> Still, whichever way it goes in the court of law, I don't
>>> think the discussion on the topic is irrelevant. At the very
>>> least it lets people know that this new "TSR Games" not only
>>> has nothing to do with "Wizards of the Coast", but that they
>>> probably don't want to do business with someone as racist and
>>> homobphobic as LaNasa is reputed to be.
>
>>Because, of course, to a lefty, accusations, especially of
>>racism and homophobis, are automatically 100% accurate at all
>>times, because it is literally impossible for a lefty to be
>>wrong in any way. Just ask a lefty.
>
> Alright, you got me. It was a pretty good troll too; I was
> fooled until the last bit. I give it 4.8 out of 5 bridges on the
> trollometer.

Sadly, a good deal of Wizards' target market believes every word of
that. You know it's true.

>
>
>
> But for those actually interested in the topic, here's a quote
> from the leaked copy of Star Frontiers New Genesis (please note:
> this is THEIR words, not mine):
>
> "* Negro (Sub-race Ulfar) (Humanoid class) - Tall, thick bodied,
> dark skinned even purle dark, brown-eye race with large strength
> average intelligence, All attributes in the 10+ range except
> intelligence which is maximum a +9
> * Nordic (Ulfar) (Humanoid Class) tall blonde, blue-eyed race
> with exceptional attributes and powers All attributes in the 13+
> range"

Context is everything, of course, but even if that's in context,
it's not grounds for Wizards to sue them. Copyright and/or
trademark violations are, but being racist assholes isn't.

>
> Note this was from the legal filing submitted by Wizards of the
> Coast, so its fairly unlikely to be something they just made up.

It's also vanishingly unlikely to be presented in context.

> They also point out to various transphobic and homophobic
> comments in the manuscript that are attributed to LaNasa. So
> it's not just unfounded accusations.
>

Also not grounds to sue them.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

[Justisaur]

On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 9:12:49 AM UTC-7, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> Spalls Hurgenson <spallsh...@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:ups4ihl9a0qvf9pa0...@4ax.com:
> >
> > So, TSR Inc is back, and Wizards of the Coast is suing them.*
> >
> > You know, when I first saw that headline, I was ready to get
> > upset; here (I thought to myself) was another example of a big
> > corporation stomping on a littler one, in an industry where the
> > little ones are usually the source of the most imaginative
> > material. I was ready to be outraged; how dare WotC?
> >
> > Because - not having read the article yet - I just assumed that
> > this new TSR had some ties to the old one; it just stood to
> > reason that it was made up of members of the old crew: might
> > there be a Blume, Arneson, Gygax, or Greenwood involved? Surely
> > it was some of the old guard who were trying to revive some of
> > the old spirit that created such revered licenses as Ravenloft
> > or Greyhawk, bringing back a bit of the magic and innovation
> > that seems so lacking from official Wizards of the Coast
> > products.
> Actually, one of the founders is, in fact, Ernie Gygax, Gary's son.

I haven't been following really close, but from what I gathered
EG was involved in about name only at the beginning and has
been in very poor health and may not be cognizant enough to
know what's going on.

Though IIRC there was a previous company that included TSR
a part of their name as well that got C&Ds too.

> Not that it matters. With Hasbro let the trademark lapse, or they
> didn't. What you and I think on that is irrelevant. Only the jury's
> opinion matters.

True that.

> --
> Terry Austin
>
> "Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
> -- David Bilek

Hi Terry, good to see our local Troll is still at work when no one
else is even here. It's not a real newsgroup unless it has at
least one. :)

- Justisaur

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Justisaur <just...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:0e5a50e3-0f3a-420e...@googlegroups.com:

Heh.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek