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Campaign Cartographer 3+
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JG
Jan 4, 2021, 7:57:58 AM1/4/21
to
You know, I remember the times when CC was this kind of software that
was just too expensive to really consider buying. In my mind this stuff
is still in the hundreds of Euros. And then ProFantasy sold it for like
15 bucks during the pandemic, and I got it there, and later Humble
Bundle offered it for even cheaper with addons
(https://www.humblebundle.com/software/maps-extravaganza-encore-software?hmb_source=navbar&hmb_medium=product_tile&hmb_campaign=tile_index_7
which is still going).
And I... am a bit disappointed. I expected a bit more than what I am
getting there. It's basically a CAD program for making fantasy maps, but
it also is difficult to use and needs a plethora of additional assets to
make it usable. In fact if I didn't buy that bundle I would have felt
like it was barely usable (they don't advertise the fact they have some
additional free downloads on their website all that well, they are
hidden as a free sampler of their subscription service).
Anybody using it for anything in their games?
was just too expensive to really consider buying. In my mind this stuff
is still in the hundreds of Euros. And then ProFantasy sold it for like
15 bucks during the pandemic, and I got it there, and later Humble
Bundle offered it for even cheaper with addons
(https://www.humblebundle.com/software/maps-extravaganza-encore-software?hmb_source=navbar&hmb_medium=product_tile&hmb_campaign=tile_index_7
which is still going).
And I... am a bit disappointed. I expected a bit more than what I am
getting there. It's basically a CAD program for making fantasy maps, but
it also is difficult to use and needs a plethora of additional assets to
make it usable. In fact if I didn't buy that bundle I would have felt
like it was barely usable (they don't advertise the fact they have some
additional free downloads on their website all that well, they are
hidden as a free sampler of their subscription service).
Anybody using it for anything in their games?
Zaghadka
Jan 4, 2021, 2:39:44 PM1/4/21
to
of the northwest regions of my campaign.
https://i.imgur.com/OeoTVuc.jpg
It is absolutely ridiculous how unintuitive the interface is, though. I
got on the FB group and got some excellent tips, like auto arranging
symbols that are out of order. It's very powerful if you are willing to
do the backflips to get results out of it.
But, if you don't know the secrets, it's very hard to get good results.
I use Dungeon Painter Studio for dungeons though. Easier to use, exports
to Roll20 excellently, lots of free assets available through Steam
workshop. CC3+ seems like it's designed better for overland and town
mapping.
I'd say CC3+ is a bit overrated, and the assets and the annuals are just
a good way to sink a lot of money for what seems like very little return.
That said, I like it for overland and town mapping (with City Creator 3
add-on). Get on the Facebook group if you have Facebook. There's a
vibrant and helpful community there.
--
Zag
No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Jan 4, 2021, 5:53:23 PM1/4/21
to
JG <gmk...@gmail.com> wrote in news:rsv3cj$vka$1...@dont-email.me:
> You know, I remember the times when CC was this kind of software
> that was just too expensive to really consider buying. In my
> mind this stuff is still in the hundreds of Euros.
It can be, if you pay full price and buy the entire package.
>And then
> ProFantasy sold it for like 15 bucks during the pandemic, and I
> got it there, and later Humble Bundle offered it for even
> cheaper with addons
> (https://www.humblebundle.com/software/maps-extravaganza-encore-s
> oftware?hmb_source=navbar&hmb_medium=product_tile&hmb_campaign=ti
> le_index_7 which is still going).
>
> And I... am a bit disappointed. I expected a bit more than what
> I am getting there. It's basically a CAD program for making
> fantasy maps,
It's very specialized for making maps. CAD programs do not normally
have sophisticated graphic effects (done with sheets in CC3+).
>but it also is difficult to use
No disagreement on that. The user interface shows it's CAD
ancestry, which is very different than how most graphics programs
work. Once you get used to it, it's fast and efficient, but it's
not intuitive. The Profantasy forums and Facebook group are both
full of helpful people to master the intricicies, though.
> and needs a
> plethora of additional assets to make it usable. In fact if I
> didn't buy that bundle I would have felt like it was barely
> usable (they don't advertise the fact they have some additional
> free downloads on their website all that well, they are hidden
> as a free sampler of their subscription service).
You're not limited to using *only* their art assets. You can use
any standard graphics formats (though PNG works best, since JPEG
doesn't do transparent backgrounds). There's *tons* of art
collections floating around, some free, like Vintryi, which has an
installer specific to CC3+ available.
https://www.vintyri.org/vintyri/cc3p_addons.htm
>
> Anybody using it for anything in their games?
>
Many people are, including me.
--
Terry Austin
Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)
Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
> You know, I remember the times when CC was this kind of software
> that was just too expensive to really consider buying. In my
> mind this stuff is still in the hundreds of Euros.
>And then
> ProFantasy sold it for like 15 bucks during the pandemic, and I
> got it there, and later Humble Bundle offered it for even
> cheaper with addons
> (https://www.humblebundle.com/software/maps-extravaganza-encore-s
> oftware?hmb_source=navbar&hmb_medium=product_tile&hmb_campaign=ti
> le_index_7 which is still going).
>
> And I... am a bit disappointed. I expected a bit more than what
> I am getting there. It's basically a CAD program for making
> fantasy maps,
have sophisticated graphic effects (done with sheets in CC3+).
>but it also is difficult to use
ancestry, which is very different than how most graphics programs
work. Once you get used to it, it's fast and efficient, but it's
not intuitive. The Profantasy forums and Facebook group are both
full of helpful people to master the intricicies, though.
> and needs a
> plethora of additional assets to make it usable. In fact if I
> didn't buy that bundle I would have felt like it was barely
> usable (they don't advertise the fact they have some additional
> free downloads on their website all that well, they are hidden
> as a free sampler of their subscription service).
any standard graphics formats (though PNG works best, since JPEG
doesn't do transparent backgrounds). There's *tons* of art
collections floating around, some free, like Vintryi, which has an
installer specific to CC3+ available.
https://www.vintyri.org/vintyri/cc3p_addons.htm
>
> Anybody using it for anything in their games?
>
--
Terry Austin
Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)
Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
JimP
Jan 5, 2021, 11:21:28 AM1/5/21
to
16 years.
http://crestofastar.drivein-jim.net/
Their official forums:
https://forum.profantasy.com/
It has a learning curve like all software. Go through the tutorials.
--
Jim
JG
Jan 6, 2021, 6:04:48 AM1/6/21
to
On 04/01/2021 20:39, Zaghadka wrote:
> Dungeon Painter Studio
hmm... it's early access. but I wonder if I actually need that one.
I think for dungeons I have different other stuff. I bought CC3 mostly
for Overland and City maps. I wanted to make an overview map of the
beginner sandbox I am piecing together lately.
Lately most of my games have been with beginners who really wanted to
see how this RPG stuff actually works, and mostly over discord. And I
expect my sons will want to try that out as well once they are old enough.
> Dungeon Painter Studio
hmm... it's early access. but I wonder if I actually need that one.
I think for dungeons I have different other stuff. I bought CC3 mostly
for Overland and City maps. I wanted to make an overview map of the
beginner sandbox I am piecing together lately.
Lately most of my games have been with beginners who really wanted to
see how this RPG stuff actually works, and mostly over discord. And I
expect my sons will want to try that out as well once they are old enough.
JG
Jan 6, 2021, 6:09:40 AM1/6/21
to
On 04/01/2021 22:53, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> It can be, if you pay full price and buy the entire package.
yes, but I remember those times when even just the basic CC ran into the
> It can be, if you pay full price and buy the entire package.
hundreds. Also I got most of the basic addons thanks to the addons, just
Cosmographer is missing for my purposes.
But yes, they do have this Annual Subscription service and getting all
of those would easily take another 300 quid
> You're not limited to using *only* their art assets. You can use
> any standard graphics formats (though PNG works best, since JPEG
> doesn't do transparent backgrounds). There's *tons* of art
> collections floating around, some free, like Vintryi, which has an
> installer specific to CC3+ available.
> https://www.vintyri.org/vintyri/cc3p_addons.htm
one thing I noticed is that someone updated the Mappa Harnica package
for making HarnWorld maps to CC3+. So I installed that as well. I do
like that setting as well.
http://theharniac.net/downloads/other_downloads.htm
JimP
Jan 6, 2021, 1:11:14 PM1/6/21
to
On Wed, 6 Jan 2021 12:09:37 +0100, JG <gmk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 04/01/2021 22:53, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> It can be, if you pay full price and buy the entire package.
>
>yes, but I remember those times when even just the basic CC ran into the
>hundreds. Also I got most of the basic addons thanks to the addons, just
>Cosmographer is missing for my purposes.
>
>But yes, they do have this Annual Subscription service and getting all
>of those would easily take another 300 quid
Well, those are Annuals, different mapping styles. I have them all. I
>On 04/01/2021 22:53, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> It can be, if you pay full price and buy the entire package.
>
>yes, but I remember those times when even just the basic CC ran into the
>hundreds. Also I got most of the basic addons thanks to the addons, just
>Cosmographer is missing for my purposes.
>
>But yes, they do have this Annual Subscription service and getting all
>of those would easily take another 300 quid
bought the software piece meal. Not all at once.
They cut the price in half for the main program, and included for free
Schley mapping and symbols for dungeons.
I bought CC2 for about 30-50 dollars. Overland maps only.
But I have all of CC3+ now.
> > You're not limited to using *only* their art assets. You can use
> > any standard graphics formats (though PNG works best, since JPEG
> > doesn't do transparent backgrounds). There's *tons* of art
> > collections floating around, some free, like Vintryi, which has an
> > installer specific to CC3+ available.
>
> > https://www.vintyri.org/vintyri/cc3p_addons.htm
>
>yes, and installing them took ages but I do have them.
>
>one thing I noticed is that someone updated the Mappa Harnica package
>for making HarnWorld maps to CC3+. So I installed that as well. I do
>like that setting as well.
>
>http://theharniac.net/downloads/other_downloads.htm
Check the Vintryi site.
--
Jim
JimP
Jan 6, 2021, 1:20:14 PM1/6/21
to
On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 12:10:25 -0600, JimP <chuckt...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Folowing up to myself; here is a page on the official forums of all
the free stuff.
https://forum.profantasy.com/discussion/10443/free-symbols-artwork
--
Jim
wrote:
the free stuff.
https://forum.profantasy.com/discussion/10443/free-symbols-artwork
--
Jim
Zaghadka
Jan 7, 2021, 7:45:43 AM1/7/21
to
Early access in this case means that the interface is crude and not well
designed. It's all perfectly functional and I've created several Roll20
maps with it (it will export to a native 70x70 pixel square format), but
it's hobbyist documented and inelegant. I've never had a crash.
It's also fairly useless without downloading free assets from the Steam
Workshop. The entire collection of Forgotten Adventures (FA) sets is a
good place to start.
JimP
Jan 7, 2021, 11:55:51 AM1/7/21
to
On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 06:45:43 -0600, Zaghadka <zagh...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
anything from Steam.
There is a Tome that covers many aspects of all of the software. Pdf
updates are free.
--
Jim
wrote:
>On Wed, 6 Jan 2021 12:04:46 +0100, in rec.games.frp.dnd, JG wrote:
>
>>On 04/01/2021 20:39, Zaghadka wrote:
>>> Dungeon Painter Studio
>>
>>hmm... it's early access. but I wonder if I actually need that one.
>>
>>I think for dungeons I have different other stuff. I bought CC3 mostly
>>for Overland and City maps. I wanted to make an overview map of the
>>beginner sandbox I am piecing together lately.
>>Lately most of my games have been with beginners who really wanted to
>>see how this RPG stuff actually works, and mostly over discord. And I
>>expect my sons will want to try that out as well once they are old enough.
>>
>Notes on DPS:
>
>Early access in this case means that the interface is crude and not well
>designed. It's all perfectly functional and I've created several Roll20
>maps with it (it will export to a native 70x70 pixel square format), but
>it's hobbyist documented and inelegant. I've never had a crash.
>
>It's also fairly useless without downloading free assets from the Steam
>Workshop. The entire collection of Forgotten Adventures (FA) sets is a
>good place to start.
Really ? I have turned out thousands of maps, and never downloaded
>
>>On 04/01/2021 20:39, Zaghadka wrote:
>>> Dungeon Painter Studio
>>
>>hmm... it's early access. but I wonder if I actually need that one.
>>
>>I think for dungeons I have different other stuff. I bought CC3 mostly
>>for Overland and City maps. I wanted to make an overview map of the
>>beginner sandbox I am piecing together lately.
>>Lately most of my games have been with beginners who really wanted to
>>see how this RPG stuff actually works, and mostly over discord. And I
>>expect my sons will want to try that out as well once they are old enough.
>>
>Notes on DPS:
>
>Early access in this case means that the interface is crude and not well
>designed. It's all perfectly functional and I've created several Roll20
>maps with it (it will export to a native 70x70 pixel square format), but
>it's hobbyist documented and inelegant. I've never had a crash.
>
>It's also fairly useless without downloading free assets from the Steam
>Workshop. The entire collection of Forgotten Adventures (FA) sets is a
>good place to start.
anything from Steam.
There is a Tome that covers many aspects of all of the software. Pdf
updates are free.
--
Jim
Zaghadka
Jan 7, 2021, 1:19:15 PM1/7/21
to
Thanks for the information.
JimP
Jan 7, 2021, 2:46:04 PM1/7/21
to
On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 12:19:18 -0600, Zaghadka <zagh...@hotmail.com>
You're welcome. Their official site is at: https://www.profantasy.com/
--
Jim
--
Jim
JG
Jan 7, 2021, 4:08:02 PM1/7/21
to
On 07/01/2021 20:45, JimP wrote:
>>>>>
>>>> Notes on DPS:
>>>>
>>>> Early access in this case means that the interface is crude and not well
>>>> designed. It's all perfectly functional and I've created several Roll20
>>>> maps with it (it will export to a native 70x70 pixel square format), but
>>>> it's hobbyist documented and inelegant. I've never had a crash.
>>>>
>>>> It's also fairly useless without downloading free assets from the Steam
>>>> Workshop. The entire collection of Forgotten Adventures (FA) sets is a
>>>> good place to start.
>>>
>>> Really ? I have turned out thousands of maps, and never downloaded
>>> anything from Steam.
>>>
>>> There is a Tome that covers many aspects of all of the software. Pdf
>>> updates are free.
>>
>> I got it from Steam. I presumed, incorrectly, that it was a Steam thing.
>>
>> Thanks for the information.
>
> You're welcome. Their official site is at: https://www.profantasy.com/
>
>
>
uhm... guys... I think you are talking at cross-purposes. One of you is
>>>>>
>>>> Notes on DPS:
>>>>
>>>> Early access in this case means that the interface is crude and not well
>>>> designed. It's all perfectly functional and I've created several Roll20
>>>> maps with it (it will export to a native 70x70 pixel square format), but
>>>> it's hobbyist documented and inelegant. I've never had a crash.
>>>>
>>>> It's also fairly useless without downloading free assets from the Steam
>>>> Workshop. The entire collection of Forgotten Adventures (FA) sets is a
>>>> good place to start.
>>>
>>> Really ? I have turned out thousands of maps, and never downloaded
>>> anything from Steam.
>>>
>>> There is a Tome that covers many aspects of all of the software. Pdf
>>> updates are free.
>>
>> I got it from Steam. I presumed, incorrectly, that it was a Steam thing.
>>
>> Thanks for the information.
>
> You're welcome. Their official site is at: https://www.profantasy.com/
>
>
>
talking about Dungeon Painter Studio, the other about Campaign
Cartographer. DPS is on Steam, CC as far as I know isn't.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Jan 7, 2021, 5:05:36 PM1/7/21
to
JG <gmk...@gmail.com> wrote in news:rt7t7g$dhd$1...@dont-email.me:
And as far as I can tell, DPS is *only* available on Steam.
Zaghadka
Jan 8, 2021, 8:19:07 AM1/8/21
to
JimP
Jan 8, 2021, 3:36:42 PM1/8/21
to
On Fri, 08 Jan 2021 07:19:13 -0600, Zaghadka <zagh...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Ah, I thought you were looking for more free stuff for CC3.
--
Jim
wrote:
--
Jim
Keith J Davies
Mar 8, 2021, 7:39:45 PM3/8/21
to
On Tuesday, January 5, 2021 at 8:21:28 AM UTC-8, JimP wrote:
>
> It has a learning curve like all software. Go through the tutorials.
Like all software, [CC3] has a learning curve. This learning curve is not like the learning curve of other software... :)
>
> It has a learning curve like all software. Go through the tutorials.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Mar 9, 2021, 11:24:07 AM3/9/21
to
Keith J Davies <keith....@gmail.com> wrote in
news:835fb20c-163a-4cf5...@googlegroups.com:
it is a bit more of a learning cliff. Scaling it requires special
equipment, unless one is already an expert.
news:835fb20c-163a-4cf5...@googlegroups.com:
equipment, unless one is already an expert.
JimP
Mar 9, 2021, 2:57:52 PM3/9/21
to
On Tue, 09 Mar 2021 08:24:03 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
<taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Keith J Davies <keith....@gmail.com> wrote in
>news:835fb20c-163a-4cf5...@googlegroups.com:
>
>> On Tuesday, January 5, 2021 at 8:21:28 AM UTC-8, JimP wrote:
>>>
>>> It has a learning curve like all software. Go through the
>>> tutorials.
>>
>> Like all software, [CC3] has a learning curve. This learning
>> curve is not like the learning curve of other software... :)
>>
>it is a bit more of a learning cliff. Scaling it requires special
>equipment, unless one is already an expert.
There are tutorials, some text and some on youtube. Its based on
<taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Keith J Davies <keith....@gmail.com> wrote in
>news:835fb20c-163a-4cf5...@googlegroups.com:
>
>> On Tuesday, January 5, 2021 at 8:21:28 AM UTC-8, JimP wrote:
>>>
>>> It has a learning curve like all software. Go through the
>>> tutorials.
>>
>> Like all software, [CC3] has a learning curve. This learning
>> curve is not like the learning curve of other software... :)
>>
>it is a bit more of a learning cliff. Scaling it requires special
>equipment, unless one is already an expert.
FastCAD, it isn't a paint program.
Over the past 16 years I have made over five thousand maps. So it is
learnable.
I went from knowing only paper, pencil, and ruler, to making thousands
of maps. You can to, if you try.
--
Jim
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Mar 9, 2021, 3:59:58 PM3/9/21
to
JimP <chuckt...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:9lkf4ghknqamjnjs9...@4ax.com:
> On Tue, 09 Mar 2021 08:24:03 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
> Kujisalimisha <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Keith J Davies <keith....@gmail.com> wrote in
>>news:835fb20c-163a-4cf5...@googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, January 5, 2021 at 8:21:28 AM UTC-8, JimP wrote:
>>>>
>>>> It has a learning curve like all software. Go through the
>>>> tutorials.
>>>
>>> Like all software, [CC3] has a learning curve. This learning
>>> curve is not like the learning curve of other software... :)
>>>
>>it is a bit more of a learning cliff. Scaling it requires
>>special equipment, unless one is already an expert.
>
> There are tutorials, some text and some on youtube. Its based on
> FastCAD, it isn't a paint program.
No, it's a CAD program, and an early one. (Or, at least, the
interface carries the legacy of an early one.)
package. There are parts of it I will *never* use, but other parts
are quite useful. I keep the annual subscription up to date, too.
Only thing I've passed on is the updated Dioramas and the token
colletions (because I don't use pog tokens).
news:9lkf4ghknqamjnjs9...@4ax.com:
> On Tue, 09 Mar 2021 08:24:03 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
> Kujisalimisha <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Keith J Davies <keith....@gmail.com> wrote in
>>news:835fb20c-163a-4cf5...@googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, January 5, 2021 at 8:21:28 AM UTC-8, JimP wrote:
>>>>
>>>> It has a learning curve like all software. Go through the
>>>> tutorials.
>>>
>>> Like all software, [CC3] has a learning curve. This learning
>>> curve is not like the learning curve of other software... :)
>>>
>>it is a bit more of a learning cliff. Scaling it requires
>>special equipment, unless one is already an expert.
>
> There are tutorials, some text and some on youtube. Its based on
> FastCAD, it isn't a paint program.
interface carries the legacy of an early one.)
>
> Over the past 16 years I have made over five thousand maps. So
> it is learnable.
>
> I went from knowing only paper, pencil, and ruler, to making
> thousands of maps. You can to, if you try.
>
When I bought it, a couple of years ago, I bought the entire
> Over the past 16 years I have made over five thousand maps. So
> it is learnable.
>
> I went from knowing only paper, pencil, and ruler, to making
> thousands of maps. You can to, if you try.
>
package. There are parts of it I will *never* use, but other parts
are quite useful. I keep the annual subscription up to date, too.
Only thing I've passed on is the updated Dioramas and the token
colletions (because I don't use pog tokens).
JimP
Mar 10, 2021, 11:29:10 AM3/10/21
to
On Tue, 09 Mar 2021 12:59:54 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
If you want to learn how to use those other bits, you can always stop
by the official forums and post questions.
I never thought I would use Cosmographer, as an example, but I did
eventually.
https://forum.profantasy.com/
Yeah, I have Dioramas, but I don't think I'll be using it.
--
Jim
by the official forums and post questions.
I never thought I would use Cosmographer, as an example, but I did
eventually.
https://forum.profantasy.com/
Yeah, I have Dioramas, but I don't think I'll be using it.
--
Jim
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Mar 10, 2021, 12:13:17 PM3/10/21
to
JimP <chuckt...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:0osh4g5r75624qegg...@4ax.com:
I check out the forums every day, and post questions as needed. It
isn't a matter of not being able to figure stuff out. There's some
parts I have no use for. Dioramas, for instance, are not useful
when you do not use any sort of physical maps, only VTTs. There
isn't much that I'd rule out the possibility of ever using, though.
news:0osh4g5r75624qegg...@4ax.com:
isn't a matter of not being able to figure stuff out. There's some
parts I have no use for. Dioramas, for instance, are not useful
when you do not use any sort of physical maps, only VTTs. There
isn't much that I'd rule out the possibility of ever using, though.
>
> I never thought I would use Cosmographer, as an example, but I
> did eventually.
>
> https://forum.profantasy.com/
>
> Yeah, I have Dioramas, but I don't think I'll be using it.
>
--
> I never thought I would use Cosmographer, as an example, but I
> did eventually.
>
> https://forum.profantasy.com/
>
> Yeah, I have Dioramas, but I don't think I'll be using it.
>
--
Lafe
Aug 21, 2021, 2:25:42 AM8/21/21
to
I have used CC3 extensively. I took the time (so much time) to get very good at
it, and gained a lot of speed, but after a while I found the complication of
using it to be too much. For *most* of my map-making these days I use
Dungeondraft and Wonderdraft (https://dungeondraft.net/ and
https://www.wonderdraft.net/ respectively). As a forever-dm with limited time,
dealing with the flaky CAD aspect of CC3 grew to be too much. And I bought the
entire package... bundled all the yearly assets. Which are fantastic. I also
got all of the add-ons, and some of those I still use regularly.
While DD and WD aren't perfect, they are basically layered paint programs (with
quirks) and were MUCH easier to learn, and are much easier to use on a daily
basis. It also helps that what they export is directly importable by my VTT
(foundry). And printing from them is also much simpler.
Lafe
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