Polymorph Male to Female?
5ti...@escape.com
shape into a female human?
The way I understand the spell is that it would not allow you to do that. If a
male mage polymorphs himself into a dog he will be a male dog... I dont think
Polymorph self will allow a mage to change his/her sex.
Any thoughts?
Ed Etkin
Jeff S Rogers grdstu
Sure. Why not? The rules state (PHB 1st Ed.) "..assume any form."
The external secondary sex features could be considered "form".
Although genetically, a male mage would still be male when polyd as
a woman. This would be different for "Shape Shange" where
everything would be different. i.e. the mage takes on the form of
the morphed being completely.
-Jeff
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff S. Rogers
jro...@umassmed.ummed.edu "If I dood it, I'll get a whippin'...
Gry...@ultranet.com ...I dood it!!!"
Quia pulver et in pulverem reverteris...
The Golem
> What do you people think of a male human mage using Polymorph self to change
> shape into a female human?
>
> The way I understand the spell is that it would not allow you to do that. If a
> male mage polymorphs himself into a dog he will be a male dog... I dont think
> Polymorph self will allow a mage to change his/her sex.
>
>
> Any thoughts?
>
I say pick your preferred sex. Some monsters don't have a sex. Some have
only one, like Harpies. If you PM'ed to a Harpy you would be female...
+-------------+
| The Golem |
+--------------------+-------------+---------------------+
| Quicksilver Dragon |LET THE LORD | Alan P. Beaudoin |
| -==(UDIC)==- |OF CHAOS RULE| Windsor, ON, Canada |
+-------------+--------------------------+---------------+
|bea...@server.uwindsor.ca|
+--------------------------+
James A Renn
> What do you people think of a male human mage using Polymorph self to change
> shape into a female human?
>
> The way I understand the spell is that it would not allow you to do that. If
> male mage polymorphs himself into a dog he will be a male dog... I dont thin
> Polymorph self will allow a mage to change his/her sex.
>
>
> Any thoughts?
>
>
> Ed Etkin
Why not? A male is just an imperfect female genetically. A change of
human/dog seems much harder than male/female. If a Change Self can pull
this off (in my game at least) than so can a Polymorph self. Be well.
+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+
Lord James Edmund of Aberedw, Barony of Stonemarche, East Kingdom
Device: Azure, a hand in benediction, and on a chief invected
argent three decrescents azure
mka: James Alex Renn
Address: 310 E. High St. 2nd Flr, Manchester NH, 03104
Email Address: ja...@isaac.stonemarche.org
CAPIO OFFICIUM PRO VESTER MEUS ACTIO
Janne Turunen TKKK
: What do you people think of a male human mage using Polymorph self to change
: The way I understand the spell is that it would not allow you to do that. If a
: male mage polymorphs himself into a dog he will be a male dog... I dont think
: Polymorph self will allow a mage to change his/her sex.
: Any thoughts?
: Ed Etkin
How about polymorph other ? =)
-janne
Greycat
other). But the caster will not have the physical abilities (having
children etc.) of a female, just the look.
Greycat
The Amorphous Mass
> What do you people think of a male human mage using Polymorph self to change
> shape into a female human?
>
> The way I understand the spell is that it would not allow you to do that. If a
> male mage polymorphs himself into a dog he will be a male dog... I dont think
> Polymorph self will allow a mage to change his/her sex.
>
It doesn't say that the mage _cannot_ do it, but remember, no special
attacks, locomotive abilities or powers. :)
For example IMO the above mage could not get pregnant (which, given the
time limit on the spell, is for the best anyway) and would not be able to
target his/her knee into someone else's groin with pinpoint accuracy. :)
>
> Any thoughts?
>
>
> Ed Etkin
>
>
___________
Bushido, n.: the ancient art of keeping your | James Robinson
cool when a US President ralphs in your lap. | james-f-...@uiowa.edu
Rache Bartmoss
On Samstag Mai 20 1995 at 14:24, 5timer wrote to All...:
t> What do you people think of a male human mage using Polymorph self to
t> change shape into a female human?
t> The way I understand the spell is that it would not allow you to do that.
t> If a male mage polymorphs himself into a dog he will be a male dog... I
t> dont think Polymorph self will allow a mage to change his/her sex.
Why shouldn't he be allowed to do that? The only problem I see is that the
male character will not be used to the female form, and MAY have some
problems imporsonating the appropriate behaviour/personality.
But that's another matter entirely, right?
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Rache_B...@digital.fido.de
Just say "No!" to religion.
Matt Hurd
>
>a male mage polymorphs himself into a dog he will be a male dog... I dont
>
>
does it seem more far fetched than changing into a hippo?
it seems like a logical polymorph in my view...
have fun,
matt h.
--
these opinions by: matt hurd m...@wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com
"I am not a man ... I am a magician |"Come dance with the West Wind and touch
without magic, and that's no one | all the mountain tops. Sail over the
at all." - Schmendrick the Magician | canyons and up to the stars." - j. denver
OLY Account 4
Mika Olavi Elmeranta <mik...@propus.tkk.utu.fi> wrote:
>
> Sometimes it feels like females are a whole another species... ;)
>
> I would allow it. (Mystra DID polymorph Elminister to a woman, but
> then again she's a god...)
> But then again a dog is way further from a human male than a human
> female is. Maybe he just should go and have a sex change done?
> I mean, you don't exactly need magic to have a sex change today, so
> why not have a whole sex change with magic?
>
> Just IMHO...
>
>
>--
> ______________________________________________________________________
> | These Views Are Mine, My Country's And It's Inhabitants. |
> | If You Don't Agree, You _WILL_ Be Shot/Hanged/Burned_On_The_Stake. |
> | And Not Necessarily In That Order... |
> | -Mika Elmeranta - mik...@propus.tkk.utu.fi |
> |______________________________________________________________________|
Surgical sex changes leave the person without really functional anatomy;
they're only cosmetic changes really. Are you implying a polymorph would
work the same way?
Demon Sultan of Khaipur
Brett Altschul
Mika Olavi Elmeranta
: Yes, a male caster can have the 'look' of a female of the same race (or
: children etc.) of a female, just the look.
: Greycat
Sometimes it feels like females are a whole another species... ;)
Mika Olavi Elmeranta
: In article <D90Cz...@utu.fi>,: >
: > Sometimes it feels like females are a whole another species... ;)
: >
: > I would allow it. (Mystra DID polymorph Elminister to a woman, but
: > then again she's a god...)
: > But then again a dog is way further from a human male than a human
: > female is. Maybe he just should go and have a sex change done?
: > I mean, you don't exactly need magic to have a sex change today, so
: > why not have a whole sex change with magic?
: Surgical sex changes leave the person without really functional anatomy;
: they're only cosmetic changes really. Are you implying a polymorph would
: work the same way?
I knew some one would say this, so that's why I wrote "a WHOLE sex change".
"WHOLE" being the keyword here... It is magic after all.
To phrase it clearly (I seem to be doing this often these days):
A polymorph spell, in MY MIND, should have the ability to change a man
to a woman. Woman being a person capable of carrying a child etc...
(Carrying meaning, inside her, not in her arms... Just to be safe. ;) )
OLY Account 4
James A Renn <ja...@isaac.stonemarche.org> wrote:
>5ti...@escape.com writes:
>
>> What do you people think of a male human mage using Polymorph self to change
>> shape into a female human?
>>
>> The way I understand the spell is that it would not allow you to do that. If
>>
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>>
>>
>
>Why not? A male is just an imperfect female genetically. A change of
Whaaaat?!
>human/dog seems much harder than male/female. If a Change Self can pull
>this off (in my game at least) than so can a Polymorph self. Be well.
>
>+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+
> Lord James Edmund of Aberedw, Barony of Stonemarche, East Kingdom
> Device: Azure, a hand in benediction, and on a chief invected
> argent three decrescents azure
> mka: James Alex Renn
> Address: 310 E. High St. 2nd Flr, Manchester NH, 03104
> Email Address: ja...@isaac.stonemarche.org
>
> CAPIO OFFICIUM PRO VESTER MEUS ACTIO
In terms of embryology, this may be true, but not genetics. Masculinity
is simply a dominant genetic trait. There's nothing imperfect or female
about having a Y chromosome.
???
a female mage polymorphs/shape changes herself into a male... would he then be
able to father children? What would the children be like? Perhaps all of the
genetic material would return to that of the PC after the spell duration wore
off, aborting the child; or maybe only the Y chromosome would change back to
X making for little girls only. If these don't happen, you could have real
problems in your world... "I shape-change into the most inhumanly perfect,
obscenely muscular (Arnold Schwarzenegger on steroids), 7'5" 550 lbs. human
male with a 20 comeliness, and go visit my similarly (but female) shape-changed
fiance." Nine months later she gives birth to a 25 lb. baby who already has
a 9 Strength. Since the two parents are casting 9th level spells, they both
have 18 ints, and so, when mature, the child's stats might be along the lines
of Str: 21, Int: 18, Wis: 16, Dex: 12, Con: 20, Cha: 13, Com: 20. Of course,
giving birth to a 25 lb. baby is rough... maybe she should shape-change again
at that point :)
- LK
A little fish in a big pond
> Sometimes it feels like females are a whole another species... ;)
>
> I would allow it. (Mystra DID polymorph Elminister to a woman, but
> then again she's a god...)
> But then again a dog is way further from a human male than a human
> female is. Maybe he just should go and have a sex change done?
> I mean, you don't exactly need magic to have a sex change today, so
> why not have a whole sex change with magic?
It really just depends on your definition of the POLYMORPH spells. Do they
draw from some great pool of species, or are you actually carefully
defining each aspect of the animal?
The former seems to be in standing with the limitations on the spell,
like lack of sex-change, no partial transformations, and only naturally
existing animals.
You could always make a much higher level Polymorph spell which doesn't
draw on this great pool of life, and defines the aspects individually,
and gives complete flexibility in how you change.
Thomas
Raymond Saulnier
> > shape into a female human?
> >
> > male mage polymorphs himself into a dog he will be a male dog... I dont think
> >
> >
> > Any thoughts?
> >
> >
> > Ed Etkin
> >
> >
that hard?
Raymond 'SUNNRAY' Saulnier
D&D Mystara Player
Raymond Saulnier
If by turning into a fish your lungs become gills, what's wrong with
your biological functions also changing. And I don't think sperm will
change when the spell wears off (The X Y thing.)
Christopher Beattie
> I knew some one would say this, so that's why I wrote "a WHOLE sex change".
> "WHOLE" being the keyword here... It is magic after all.
> To phrase it clearly (I seem to be doing this often these days):
> A polymorph spell, in MY MIND, should have the ability to change a man
> to a woman. Woman being a person capable of carrying a child etc...
> (Carrying meaning, inside her, not in her arms... Just to be safe. ;) )
I tend to agree with you here, but I see problems in the long run.
Yes, the woman should be perfectly capable of carrying a child,
but another question is "would she be fertile?"
My basic problem with this "gene" thing as the explanation of poly
is that it could be horrably abused. Polymorph A into Red Dragon,
Polymorph B into Female Red Dragon ... get little flying army.
How would these children behave to dispell magic?
On the other hand, Norse mythology had their gods changing form
and sex at will, and Loki was able to conceive the wolf that would
later destroy the universe, so you can call it either way.
| _____ |Christopher Beattie |Tantalus Incorporated|
| ___ |[]|_n_n_I_c |Tantalus @ Key West | P.O. Box 2310|
| |___||__|###|____)|Development Division| Key West, FL 33045|
| O-O--O-O+++--O-O |chr...@mpgn.com |Phone: (305) 293-8100|
| Opinions expressed here belong to me! | Fax: (305) 292-7835|
Ken Arromdee
>This is kind of an interesting question regarding reproduction. Let's say
>a female mage polymorphs/shape changes herself into a male... would he then be
>able to father children? What would the children be like? Perhaps all of the
>genetic material would return to that of the PC after the spell duration wore
>off, aborting the child; or maybe only the Y chromosome would change back to
>X making for little girls only. If these don't happen, you could have real
>problems in your world...
It is possible that the genetic material would return to the PC and make
pregnancy impossible when the spell wears off, or it is possible that the
Y chromosome would change back, making all the children girls. However,
this is so only if the spell wears off in a very short time. The genetic
material in the fetus isn't "the same" genetic material; it is _copied_ from
the original, and would no more either vanish or change to X than a photograph
of the male person would change to a photograph of a female person. At best,
the strands of DNA, in all the millions of cells in the child, that happened
to be the same strands that were originally in the sperm, rather than copies,
would vanish or change back, but this is a few out of millions and the
effect would be swamped merely by normal copying errors and damage.
As for why you couldn't get super-children by changing to a character with
high stats before conception, well... basically, polymorph and shape change
spells don't let you change your stats in the first place (relatively... if
you are a weak human, you can change into a weak giant, who is still stronger
than humans... but you can't change to a strong human.)
--
Ken Arromdee (email: arro...@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
Romana: "But he had such an honest face!"
Doctor: "Romana! You can't be a successful thief with a _dis_honest face!"
Dirk Holstege
I don't think you have that much control over polymorphs and even shape change. If you
are a male and change to an elf, you stay male. If you had hand missing as a human,
you still have one missing as an elf. This would apply to characteristic marks, age
etc.
Dirk
Calvin
You are putting to much thought into this topic,
How many times have your mages..
A)poymorphed
B)are homosexual
C)Have sex?
think about it
-Lamar the laughing Bard
--
Shadow
Ben K Krauskopf
who had been poly-othered into a dog. He was causing lots of trouble in a
town and finaly one of the local mages decided that trying to take sweet young
larissa's "NO!"'s as "YES!"es, so he polymorphed him. They planned to leave
him that way for a while to teach him a lesson. Anyway, some of the pcs ran
into him and one of them offered to take the spell off if he'd help him out
for a while. (They had translating magic) This PC is possesed with the idea
that he could get much more intelligent dogs if he could just get the guy to
mate. The man-dog, of course, is totaly opposed to the idea. Ug!
Ben Krauskopf
bkk...@tam2000.tamu.edu
PS Some of this guy's other projects are to duplicate various modern devices
and automate some not so modern ones. His power source? Skeletons told to
keep moving in a certain way and hooked up to linkages. Of course, he has
been wanting to do this ever since I have known him. It's just that he now
has a character that might do these things (a necromancer). I really can't
see why he wants to do these things. Why the heck can't he just leave well
enough alone. It annoys the he// out of me!! I suppose it's just a symptom
of being an engineer that he wants to do this (as well as invent a physics of
magic for other dms games and explain how he's going to accomplish some spell
or other according to these rules. He even goes so far as to correct other
people. Last night he corrected the DM (who, for a change, wasn't me). The
dm had just finished explaining that we had a suit of field plate that was
+2 normaly and +6 vs demons. He corrected "Oh, you mean it's got a link to
a positive energy plane and gives extra bonuses vs outer planar creatures!"
Why can't some people just accept that somthing works without worrying how
the blasted thing works? Sorry, I just felt the need to dump some frustration.
Ben
cur...@ix.netcom.com
[Alot of drivvel about Male to Female sex change]
There is NO WAY that a Polymorph spell, of any sort from ANYONE,
should be able to change the physical sex of the person. A
transformation of this magnitude can only be accomplished by a
SHAPE-CHANGE or WISH spell. Explain to me how a low-level spell,
considered an ILLUSION, could change an individual that greatly?
Only the most powerful of beings can change the sex of an individual.
It seems a little ridiculous to let low-level magic users change the
sex of villagers on a whim.
Dru A Smith
Consider this:
The difference in genetic make-up between a male cat and a male
human is huge.
The difference in genetic make-up between a male humand and a female
human is considerably less than huge.
The easier jump is to change sex instead of changing species.
However, in my world polymorphing to another sex creates a non-fertile
version of the creature, whose genetic make-up is still that of the
original caster, but whose physical shape is that of the new sex.
Think this is ridiculous? Just do some checking on genetics and
reproduction -- there are numerous cases of sexes that do NOT fit
into the neat "male" and "female" roles. There are people who are
physically female but genetically male (a handful of the 'supermodels'
belong to this group, and Jamie Lee Curtis is rumored to fall into
this category). This sort of thing is basically a block in the
system to prevent ANY male characteristics from forming, even though
the dna is male (thus the lack of ANY traces of masculinity from some
of the models).
Additionally, cases of hermaphroditism, et al, are well documented.
The point: don't think that when a male caster chooses to polymorph
to 'female' that you have only one choice to make. :)
Dru Smith
----------------------------------------------------------------
"...all life is only a set of pictures in the brain, among which
there is no difference betwixt those born of real things and
those born of inward dreamings, and no cause to value the one
above the other"
-- H.P. Lovecraft, The Silver Key
verkuilen john v
>In article <3rkt7m$l...@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, <cur...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>Christopher Beattie <chr...@mpgn.com> wrote:
>>
[snip]
> Consider this:
> The difference in genetic make-up between a male cat and a male
> human is huge.
> The difference in genetic make-up between a male humand and a female
> human is considerably less than huge.
> The easier jump is to change sex instead of changing species.
> However, in my world polymorphing to another sex creates a non-fertile
> version of the creature, whose genetic make-up is still that of the
> original caster, but whose physical shape is that of the new sex.
> Think this is ridiculous? Just do some checking on genetics and
> reproduction -- there are numerous cases of sexes that do NOT fit
> into the neat "male" and "female" roles. There are people who are
> physically female but genetically male (a handful of the 'supermodels'
> belong to this group, and Jamie Lee Curtis is rumored to fall into
> this category). This sort of thing is basically a block in the
> system to prevent ANY male characteristics from forming, even though
> the dna is male (thus the lack of ANY traces of masculinity from some
> of the models).
> Additionally, cases of hermaphroditism, et al, are well documented.
> The point: don't think that when a male caster chooses to polymorph
> to 'female' that you have only one choice to make. :)
There was an article in Discover magazine a few years back about this.
If anyone out there subscribes or can do a lit search it probably wouldn't
be too hard to find. My general feeling on this is that since polymorph
other does make a complete change, one could probably do a sex change.
Shape change could certainly accomplish this feat. One could argue for
polymorph any object as well. Besides, what's the big deal anyway?
Ben K Krauskopf
Larry Smith USG <lar...@alpha.zk3.dec.com> wrote:
>
>In article <3riccv$3...@news.tamu.edu>, bkk...@tam2000.tamu.edu (Ben K Krauskopf) writes:
>
>>Why can't some people just accept that somthing works without worrying how
>>the blasted thing works?
>
>cursed with the sort of mind that must try to work out the underlying
>pattern. They are the ones who invented science, when people who never
>worried about how something works would still be living in caves. I
>see nothing wrong with trying to do these things, they are logical
>consequences of the laws of the universe his character lives in. If
>you don't like the consequences, change the rules. Demanding the
>person change to suite _your_ taste is no more valid than would a
>demand from him for you to change to suite _his_ taste.
I have no problem with people being curious about how things work. I have
no problem with sience. The problem with what he does is that he has invented
*ON HIS OWN* this set of rules that define how he thinks things work. Then
he will argue with the DM or other players in the game when things don't match
these rules. Most of the items in the DMG don't say what makes them work.
If he has an item and uses it in such a way that has no provision in the book
and then, if it doesn't work, starts going into all of *HIS* magical theory
about how he should be able to do this because blah blah blah (shades of TNG
technobabble ). I don't care if he wants to make up a theory of magic for
his own use. I will tolerate it even as I expect people to tolerate the
letters and journals I write for many of my characters. The problem comes in
when he expects us to operate by his set of rules. Note the he never actualy
runs a game himself (more than two or three sessions per year anyway). I
really don't care for him giving me all these explanations about how somthing
works that justify his being able to do somthing that he shouldn't be able to
do according to the description of the item.
BTW As for tolerance, this is the same guy who got pissed at me and told me
to shut up (out of character) because my in character arguments and general
role playing were "annoying". He ain't so tolerant either.
Ben Krauskopf
bkk...@tam2000.tamu.edu
Perhaps it wouldn't be quite so annoying if things didn't just happen to work
out in his favor with the magic physics.
The Amorphous Mass
> Christopher Beattie <chr...@mpgn.com> wrote:
>
> [Alot of drivvel about Male to Female sex change]
>
> There is NO WAY that a Polymorph spell, of any sort from ANYONE,
> should be able to change the physical sex of the person. A
> transformation of this magnitude can only be accomplished by a
> SHAPE-CHANGE or WISH spell. Explain to me how a low-level spell,
> considered an ILLUSION, could change an individual that greatly?
Polymorph (Self and Other) is an ALTERATION, and 4th level is hardly
low-level. At any rate if it was an illusion it could "change" you to
whatever you wished, no?
Furthermore there are several species of plants and animals that can
change sex more or less at will from season to season, but I know of no
species that can change from warm-blooded to cold-blooded, or from a
hollow-boned avian to a massive hippo.
> Only the most powerful of beings can change the sex of an individual.
> It seems a little ridiculous to let low-level magic users change the
> sex of villagers on a whim.
If you consider 7th level low, I guess I can't argue. If you consider
expending a 4th level spell on a villager a mere "whim" I suppose I have
no argument against that either. But you're assuming a _very_
high-powered campaign.
I'd allow a fairly high-level caster to change the sex of a villager
before I allowed them to change the genus of an individual, or even to
imbue them with fantastic and/or magical status!
Mika Olavi Elmeranta
: PS Some of this guy's other projects are to duplicate various modern devices
: keep moving in a certain way and hooked up to linkages. Of course, he has
: been wanting to do this ever since I have known him. It's just that he now
: has a character that might do these things (a necromancer). I really can't
: see why he wants to do these things. Why the heck can't he just leave well
: enough alone. It annoys the he// out of me!! I suppose it's just a symptom
: of being an engineer that he wants to do this (as well as invent a physics of
: magic for other dms games and explain how he's going to accomplish some spell
: or other according to these rules. He even goes so far as to correct other
: people. Last night he corrected the DM (who, for a change, wasn't me). The
: dm had just finished explaining that we had a suit of field plate that was
: +2 normaly and +6 vs demons. He corrected "Oh, you mean it's got a link to
: a positive energy plane and gives extra bonuses vs outer planar creatures!"
: the blasted thing works? Sorry, I just felt the need to dump some frustration.
Sounds like a Gnome to me... ;-)
If he doesn't play one, maybe he should...
Personally I thought (as a DM), that the skeleton idea was quite nice.
(A little "Mad Mage" flavour to the game...)
--
Missing: Signature, last seen running towards the nntp.utu.fi...
Larry Smith USG
>Why can't some people just accept that somthing works without worrying how
>the blasted thing works?
Maybe because we are not all the same. Maybe because some people are
cursed with the sort of mind that must try to work out the underlying
pattern. They are the ones who invented science, when people who never
worried about how something works would still be living in caves. I
see nothing wrong with trying to do these things, they are logical
consequences of the laws of the universe his character lives in. If
you don't like the consequences, change the rules. Demanding the
person change to suite _your_ taste is no more valid than would a
demand from him for you to change to suite _his_ taste.
--
Larry Smith --- My opinions only. lar...@zk3.dec.com/lar...@io.com.
Liberalism...[for] half a century...has been tested to destruction [and] failed
everywhere, overwhelmingly and manifestly - except in...the minds of its advoc-
ates. For them, liberalism is a religion... -- Paul Johnson, WSJ 4-Jan-94
Jim Sisolak
C> Christopher Beattie <chr...@mpgn.com> wrote:
C> [Alot of drivvel about Male to Female sex change]
C> There is NO WAY that a Polymorph spell, of any sort from ANYONE,
C> should be able to change the physical sex of the person. A
C> transformation of this magnitude can only be accomplished by a
C> SHAPE-CHANGE or WISH spell. Explain to me how a low-level spell,
C> considered an ILLUSION, could change an individual that greatly?
It's not an illusion. Read the spell. In anycase, you aren't *seriously*
saying the spell can change my mage into a fish, but not into a female
member of the same species, are you?
C> Only the most powerful of beings can change the sex of an individual.
C> It seems a little ridiculous to let low-level magic users change the
C> sex of villagers on a whim.
Why? Of what great import is sucha change in the game?
--
Jim Sisolak | University of Wisconsin - Madison
http://trans4.neep.wisc.edu/~sisolak | Department of Nuclear Engineering
Dirk Holstege
magic works, and use these rules to make the many rule interpretations
needed throughout the game. This creates "fair" rule interpretations (or
at least consistent ones).
Dirk
Dirk Holstege
>On Tue, 13 Jun 1995 cur...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>> Christopher Beattie <chr...@mpgn.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>
>low-level. At any rate if it was an illusion it could "change" you to
>whatever you wished, no?
> Furthermore there are several species of plants and animals that can
>change sex more or less at will from season to season, but I know of no
>species that can change from warm-blooded to cold-blooded, or from a
>hollow-boned avian to a massive hippo.
>
>> Only the most powerful of beings can change the sex of an individual.
>> It seems a little ridiculous to let low-level magic users change the
>> sex of villagers on a whim.
>
> If you consider 7th level low, I guess I can't argue. If you consider
>expending a 4th level spell on a villager a mere "whim" I suppose I have
>no argument against that either. But you're assuming a _very_
>high-powered campaign.
> I'd allow a fairly high-level caster to change the sex of a villager
>before I allowed them to change the genus of an individual, or even to
>imbue them with fantastic and/or magical status!
>
I have two reasons for not allowing sex change using polymorph. 1) The
spell says you can change to another animal type, but does not specify
control over what the creature looks like (ie I don't allow a PC to
polymorph into a 5' tall Elf with black hair, he just becomes a random
Elf with perhaps some features of his old body). Polymorph is used to
change the locomation adn shape of the mage, not give specific benetfits.
If you could choose the shape of the body exactly, could you polymorph
to look like someone else (I think this would violate the spirit of the
spell)? 2) The effects of putting on a girdle of masculinity/femininity
can not be changed by remove curse and other powerful spells, so
polymorph should also not be able to alter it (although polymorph would
only be a temporary solution).
Dirk
verkuilen john v
[snipped]
>I have two reasons for not allowing sex change using polymorph. 1) The
>spell says you can change to another animal type, but does not specify
>control over what the creature looks like (ie I don't allow a PC to
>polymorph into a 5' tall Elf with black hair, he just becomes a random
>Elf with perhaps some features of his old body). Polymorph is used to
>change the locomation adn shape of the mage, not give specific benetfits.
> If you could choose the shape of the body exactly, could you polymorph
>to look like someone else (I think this would violate the spirit of the
>spell)? 2) The effects of putting on a girdle of masculinity/femininity
>can not be changed by remove curse and other powerful spells, so
>polymorph should also not be able to alter it (although polymorph would
>only be a temporary solution).
(1) Trying to find an ex post facto logic for TSR's mostly ac hoc decisions
will get you in deep sh!t fast.
(2) Is this a massive problem in your campaign?
With those strong caveats in mind, why can't polymorph other change
a human male into a human female? It's really not a massive change.
Besides, I wouldn't bother with genetics too much in the case of a fantasy
world, since there's lots of things that don't jive with _that_ either.
Polymorph Other, IIRC, allows access to the special abilities of the creature
into which the target is changed. I guess you could call the ability to
bear children a special ability of females. Since PO has an indefinite
duration, I would have to rule that it did in fact allow for sex change.
We do have the problem that one could think that the spell maintains the
alternate form, holding the real form at bay, so to speak. However, I
guess I would just rule that bodily products (i.e., ovum, sperm, etc.) are
"true" and attain a separate existence once they have departed from the
body. In other words, the child won't have any problems of a magical
nature if the spell is dispelled. (That is unless the GM thinks it would
be entertaining....)
The abovementioned girdle is a real pain in the butt as far as this whole
ruling is concerned, but I wouldn't read too much into it. Maybe it's a
PO combined with a curse that makes it permanent. In any event, Polymorph
Any Object, which allows changes between kingdoms very definitely allows
a radical enough change that the male-female transition could easily be'
accomplished. Again, IIRC, it would be permanent (I don't recall the details
of PAO well).
Now, Dispel Magic on a male polymorphed to a female and then later
impregnated would have catastrophic consequences.
Actually, I think one could have a really interesting character based off
the "man trapped (literally) in a woman's body" or vice versa, especially
if it was accomplished with something really tough to dispel (say, magic from
an archimage in a low fantasy campaign). The character could go off on an
adventuring career looking for revenge and/or reversal of the spell.
Ben K Krauskopf
Mika Olavi Elmeranta <mik...@propus.tkk.utu.fi> wrote:
> Sounds like a Gnome to me... ;-)
>
> If he doesn't play one, maybe he should...
>
> Personally I thought (as a DM), that the skeleton idea was quite nice.
> (A little "Mad Mage" flavour to the game...)
He don't play a gnome. He doesn't want to be a gnome because they can't be
a good enough mage to do the things he wants. Even mere door openers require
third and fourth level spells for this guy. Besides, he wants his stuff to
work.
I guess I'm just sick of hearing the skeleton idea after 5 years and as many
characters.
Ben Krauskopf
bkk...@tam2000.tamu.edu
Dirk Holstege
>
>(1) Trying to find an ex post facto logic for TSR's mostly ac hoc decisions
>will get you in deep sh!t fast.
>
True, but literal interpretations can also do the same.
>(2) Is this a massive problem in your campaign?
>
No. I don't allow sex xhange with polymorphs. I do have a PC mage who put on the
cursed girdle, but with my constitution, I wouldn't survive too many polymorphsI just
to stay male. Hey... am I now a wyver?
>With those strong caveats in mind, why can't polymorph other change
>a human male into a human female? It's really not a massive change.
>Besides, I wouldn't bother with genetics too much in the case of a fantasy
>world, since there's lots of things that don't jive with _that_ either.
>Polymorph Other, IIRC, allows access to the special abilities of the creature
>into which the target is changed. I guess you could call the ability to
>bear children a special ability of females. Since PO has an indefinite
>duration, I would have to rule that it did in fact allow for sex change.
>We do have the problem that one could think that the spell maintains the
>alternate form, holding the real form at bay, so to speak. However, I
>guess I would just rule that bodily products (i.e., ovum, sperm, etc.) are
>"true" and attain a separate existence once they have departed from the
>body. In other words, the child won't have any problems of a magical
>nature if the spell is dispelled. (That is unless the GM thinks it would
>be entertaining....)
I really don't think the spell allows you to pick the specific features of the creature
you polymorph into, so you could not pick the sex. Polymorph doesn't really allow for
the special abilities of the creature, it only allows you to have the form and movement
form of the creature - it doesn't even say you can move a fast as the creature you
changed to (if you polymorph into a quickling, do you move 48"?). You still keep many
of your physical attributes, including str., dex, int, wis, con.
>
>The abovementioned girdle is a real pain in the butt as far as this whole
>ruling is concerned, but I wouldn't read too much into it. Maybe it's a
>PO combined with a curse that makes it permanent. In any event, Polymorph
>Any Object, which allows changes between kingdoms very definitely allows
>a radical enough change that the male-female transition could easily be'
>accomplished. Again, IIRC, it would be permanent (I don't recall the details
>of PAO well).
>
>Now, Dispel Magic on a male polymorphed to a female and then later
>impregnated would have catastrophic consequences.
I would rule that polymorphed creatures were sterile, just to save myself a headache
thinking about it.
>
>Actually, I think one could have a really interesting character based off
>the "man trapped (literally) in a woman's body" or vice versa, especially
>if it was accomplished with something really tough to dispel (say, magic from
>an archimage in a low fantasy campaign). The character could go off on an
>adventuring career looking for revenge and/or reversal of the spell.
>
>
>Jay
>ja...@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu
By the way, can you cast spells when polymorphed, and what shapes allow it. Can a mage
polymorphed into a hill giant (or quickling) still cast all his spells?
Flarn
easier to change back to normal than if the afflicted character had donned
a girdle of femininity/masculinity, which requires far more powerful
measures to counteract than a polymorph other spell...
- Scott
Christopher Beattie
> PS Some of this guy's other projects are to duplicate various modern devices
> and automate some not so modern ones. His power source? Skeletons told to
> keep moving in a certain way and hooked up to linkages. Of course, he has
> been wanting to do this ever since I have known him. It's just that he now
Hmmm, that sounds interesting. Suppose you made a real big ring of skeletons,
say enough for a 100' radius so the curve would not be too great, fill it full
of skeletons about an arm's length apart and have then march in the circle,
having them push their outside leg out slightly every fifth step or so, or
whenever they see the one in front of them doing so. What a conga line.
Useless, but a real good source for amusement for any adventuring party.
Mind you, most villages don't approve of necromancers going into their cemetaries
and taking their parents and great grand parents. In fact, some cultures,
(such as rome) routinely used cremation and didn't burry their dead.
Now if you only could create an escher staircase like that in "ascending and
descending" then they could be walking upwards in perpetuial silliness.
verkuilen john v
>bkk...@tam2000.tamu.edu (Ben K Krauskopf) wrote:
>> PS Some of this guy's other projects are to duplicate various modern devices
>> and automate some not so modern ones. His power source? Skeletons told to
>> keep moving in a certain way and hooked up to linkages. Of course, he has
>> been wanting to do this ever since I have known him. It's just that he now
>Hmmm, that sounds interesting. Suppose you made a real big ring of skeletons,
>say enough for a 100' radius so the curve would not be too great, fill it full
>of skeletons about an arm's length apart and have then march in the circle,
>having them push their outside leg out slightly every fifth step or so, or
>whenever they see the one in front of them doing so. What a conga line.
>Useless, but a real good source for amusement for any adventuring party.
>Mind you, most villages don't approve of necromancers going into their cemetaries
>and taking their parents and great grand parents. In fact, some cultures,
>(such as rome) routinely used cremation and didn't burry their dead.
>Now if you only could create an escher staircase like that in "ascending and
>descending" then they could be walking upwards in perpetuial silliness.
Well, at least the skeleton isn't a perpetual motion machine--it wears
out eventually. And, the GM could have fun with the character using
the monster from the old Fiend Folio that lives in the ethereal plane and
doesn't like magic use on the prime. It was in the "t" section but I
don't remember the name (and my FF isn't at the office).
Jay Knioum
<chr...@mpgn.com> writes...
>bkk...@tam2000.tamu.edu (Ben K Krauskopf) wrote:
[stuff about skeletons as perpetual motion machines deleted]
>Hmmm, that sounds interesting. Suppose you made a real big ring of skeletons,
>say enough for a 100' radius so the curve would not be too great, fill it full
>of skeletons about an arm's length apart and have then march in the circle,
>having them push their outside leg out slightly every fifth step or so, or
>whenever they see the one in front of them doing so. What a conga line.
>Useless, but a real good source for amusement for any adventuring party.
>Now if you only could create an escher staircase like that in "ascending and
>descending" then they could be walking upwards in perpetuial silliness.
Now THIS would be the random encounter from hell. Animate yourself about
100 skeletons, form this conga line, and have them head off, oh say West.
This would give small towns, scouts, bards, caravans, travellers, and
farmers no end of fits. Hell, stick a permanent illusion on all the
skeletons, causing them to glow in pastel colors, with appropriate music
playing!
Using the spell Imbue Undead With Spell Ability (I forget where it is), you
could give each skeleton the ability to Charm Person, thereby adding hapless
observers to the line.
Oh, the fun a kender necromancer could have...
jk
Dru A Smith
verkuilen john v <ja...@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>Christopher Beattie <chr...@mpgn.com> writes:
>the monster from the old Fiend Folio that lives in the ethereal plane and
>doesn't like magic use on the prime. It was in the "t" section but I
>don't remember the name (and my FF isn't at the office).
"Tween" - it attached to a PC, giving him/her a +1 to hits and all other
PC's and monsters a -1. Mixed blessing, at best.
Dru
Christopher Wooff
in a previous post is a "Terithran", not a "Tween" (a different creature
altogether). The terithran was a different Ethereal plane monster that had
a set chance of appearing if it sensed magic in the "neighbourhood" (apparently
some GM was sick of people using magic too much).
Chris Wooff
Dru A Smith
Ken Arromdee
>Christopher Beattie <chr...@mpgn.com> wrote:
>There is NO WAY that a Polymorph spell, of any sort from ANYONE,
>should be able to change the physical sex of the person. A
>transformation of this magnitude can only be accomplished by a
>SHAPE-CHANGE or WISH spell. Explain to me how a low-level spell,
>considered an ILLUSION, could change an individual that greatly?
>It seems a little ridiculous to let low-level magic users change the
>sex of villagers on a whim.
But a polymorph spell can change someone into a pigeon. A pigeon is a lot
more different from a human than a male human is from a female one!
Matt Hurd
>Christopher Wooff <wo...@snoopy.usask.ca> wrote:
>>No offense to Mr. Dru Smith, but I believe the fiend folio monster mentioned
>>in a previous post is a "Terithran", not a "Tween" (a different creature
>>altogether). The terithran was a different Ethereal plane monster that had
>>a set chance of appearing if it sensed magic in the "neighbourhood"
>>(apparently some GM was sick of people using magic too much).
>
> None taken. I spoke too soon! After all, IDHTFFIFOM :)
i love it when a plan comes together...
have fun and keep the mind working,
matt h.
--
these opinions by: matt hurd m...@wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com
"I am not a man ... I am a magician |"Come dance with the West Wind and touch
without magic, and that's no one | all the mountain tops. Sail over the
at all." - Schmendrick the Magician | canyons and up to the stars." - j. denver
Terry
Well, since you put it that way, I do happen to know a transmuter mage
that is sexually active and bisexual. He tends to keep open-minded, and
he might think about it...
Tryphena Locke of Wolfswood
aka Terry Neer
ro...@isaac.stonemarche.org
Dru A Smith
Terry <ro...@isaac.stonemarche.org> wrote:
>Calvin <74562...@CompuServe.COM> writes:
>
>> If you ask me you guys are rather odd.
>> You are putting to much thought into this topic,
>> How many times have your mages..
>> A)poymorphed
>> B)are homosexual
>> C)Have sex?
>> think about it
>> -Lamar the laughing Bard
>>
>> --
>> Shadow
A male who changes his sex to female and has sex with a male is
NOT a homosexual. We've gone through this before -- please look
up the following terms in your local dictionary before tossing them
around:
Transgendered
Transsexual
Transvestite
Homosexual
Hermaphrodite
Bisexual
Heterosexual
I'm sure you'll find their diversity fascinating.
Dru Smith
Aventerular@uea.ac.uk Karith Aventerular
>
> But a polymorph spell can change someone into a pigeon. A pigeon is a lot
> more different from a human than a male human is from a female one!
> --
> Ken Arromdee (email: arro...@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
The point is that everthing has a natural form ,and polymorph merely
changes the species-if an albino is polymorphed onto a raven,(s)he
will be a white skinned/featherd raven.Thus thew impossibility of
polymorphing someone into a specific individual-a human polymorphed
into a humanoid race(elf,dwarf,pixie,etc...) will be vaguely
recognisible as themself(just a bit more elven,dwarvish,pixieish etc...)
Jos/Kaz
john horton
>
> The point is that everthing has a natural form ,and polymorph merely
> changes the species-if an albino is polymorphed onto a raven,(s)he
> will be a white skinned/featherd raven.
Since "morph" means "form," I'd have to say that your interpretation
is too narrow. Also, if the aforementioned albino is polymorphed into
a gold dragon, does that mean (s)he is a *white skinned* gold dragon?
Does this also mean that a dark-skinned character polymorphed into a
canary would have to be a dark-feathered canary?
> Thus thew impossibility of
> polymorphing someone into a specific individual-a human polymorphed
> into a humanoid race(elf,dwarf,pixie,etc...) will be vaguely
> recognisible as themself(just a bit more elven,dwarvish,pixieish etc...)
What's the point of a polymorph spell if everyone can tell that the
form is not your true one?
Anyway, wasn't this beaten to death a couple of weeks ago?
John Horton <jho...@csun.edu>
"You can't get passion into a story with exclamation points."
Joseph Russell Taylor
The Amorphous Mass
> arro...@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) wrote:
> >
>
> > But a polymorph spell can change someone into a pigeon. A pigeon is a lot
> > more different from a human than a male human is from a female one!
> > --
> > Ken Arromdee (email: arro...@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
>
> The point is that everthing has a natural form ,and polymorph merely
> changes the species-if an albino is polymorphed onto a raven,(s)he
> will be a white skinned/featherd raven.Thus thew impossibility of
> polymorphing someone into a specific individual-a human polymorphed
> into a humanoid race(elf,dwarf,pixie,etc...) will be vaguely
> recognisible as themself(just a bit more elven,dwarvish,pixieish etc...)
>
And a tall, wiry, silver-haired man with hawkish features and green
eyes will PolySelf into a tall, wiry, silver-haired woman with hawkish
features and green eyes who looks like his sister. :)
Besides, the original topic of this discussion was Polymorph Other,
which *permanently* changes the natural form of the target, and is thus
exempt from most of your argument.