AD&D CD-ROM Core Rules
Brian Kneece
If there is anyone out there thinking about buying The new AD&D CD-ROM
Core Rules I strongly suggest that you think long and hard about it. I was
dumb enough to purchase it even though I had all the material in hardcopy.
It is without a doubt the biggest dissapointment I have ever suffered. All
of the features of this tool are listed on the box from random encounter
generation ,a map drawing utility and five complete rule books to being
able to draw dungeon maps in two dimensions then convert them into real
time 3-D maps. The truth is the software does do all of the above but it
does it very, very poorly. The 3-D maps are so blurred that you can hardly
tell where you are in you own creation! The map drawing utility in general
is just a Grid that you drop square patterns into. It makes for a very
blocky outdoor map. I have had this software for 24 hours and I alredy know
that I will never use in real game play or creation.
Again I strongly suggest that you think long and hard about this. I'd hate
to see someone else waste $73.00.
Steven Brengard
On 2 Sep 1996 03:32:13 GMT, "Brian Kneece" <bkn...@emeraldis.com>
wrote:
You paid 73.00?!?!??! ... Wargames West (1-800-SAY-GAME) is selling it
for 49.00. I ordered my copy and it will arrive Tuesday. While I have
heard both, that this product is great and that it sucks, I 'll just
be happy to have it to complete my collection.
Tom Miller or Peter Miller
>blocky outdoor map. I have had this software for 24 hours and I
alredy know
>that I will never use in real game play or creation.
Well, I'm definitely buying it, after trying out the demo, but this
was one thing I wondered, why are the maps so blocky? Will this be
fxed in more version? I didn't get it, it doesn't make sense why the
forests and such are in square blocks (even when hex grid is on)
TSR? Why did you do this!
Thanks,
Peter
Sam Spectre
Tom Miller or Peter Miller (sco...@inforamp.net\peter...@youngmerlin.com) wrote:
: Well, I'm definitely buying it, after trying out the demo, but this
: fxed in more version? I didn't get it, it doesn't make sense why the
: forests and such are in square blocks (even when hex grid is on)
The MapMaker is definitely the weakest link of the package... I will be
drawing my maps on paper, by hand, until they come up with a MUCH BETTER
map maker than the one included. There should at least be merger of
textures so that if you put a forest in one block, and an ocean in the
next a beach appears; maybe even with a tide coming in an out (ala
Civilization). And the fact that the Ocean texture is JUST blue (it
wouldn't have been VERY hard AT ALL to put a couple light-blue waves in
the block... It looks really BAD when placed next to a whirlpool.
And what's the deal with all the spots in rivers and roads... Is anyone
ELSE having this problem...
- Dennis Stanley
spe...@access.digex.net
J. McGuire
Steven Brengard wrote:
>
> On 2 Sep 1996 03:32:13 GMT, "Brian Kneece" <bkn...@emeraldis.com>
> wrote:
>
> > If there is anyone out there thinking about buying The new AD&D CD-ROM
> >Core Rules I strongly suggest that you think long and hard about it. I was
> >dumb enough to purchase it even though I had all the material in hardcopy.
> >It is without a doubt the biggest dissapointment I have ever suffered. All
> >of the features of this tool are listed on the box from random encounter
> >generation ,a map drawing utility and five complete rule books to being
> >able to draw dungeon maps in two dimensions then convert them into real
> >time 3-D maps. The truth is the software does do all of the above but it
> >does it very, very poorly. The 3-D maps are so blurred that you can hardly
> >tell where you are in you own creation! The map drawing utility in general
> >is just a Grid that you drop square patterns into. It makes for a very
> >that I will never use in real game play or creation.
> >
> >to see someone else waste $73.00.
> >
> >
> >
> You paid 73.00?!?!??! ... Wargames West (1-800-SAY-GAME) is selling it
> for 49.00. I ordered my copy and it will arrive Tuesday. While I have
> heard both, that this product is great and that it sucks, I 'll just
> be happy to have it to complete my collection.
I have had the Core Rules CD-ROM since GenCon, though the difficulties I
had getting Windows 95 installed and stable delayed my evaluation of it
quite a bit. The fact that I'm working on a side-by-side review of five
different RPG mapping programs eats my free time,too. A few quick
comments on it:
*** IMPORTANT NOTE ***
I represent Wintertree Software, a company which sells programs which might
be considered to be competing with some features of the Core Rules CD. I am
writing this as "Jean, random gamer" rather than "Ms. McGuire, owner of
Wintertree Software", but be aware that, no matter how hard I try, it is
possible that some bias might creep in. I just want make sure everyone knows
this up front.
**********************
I am seriously underwhelmed by the Core Rules CD-ROM. If I were not one of
the few people in the world who can write it off on my taxes, I'd probably
be trying to get my money back. With the exception of the rulebooks, there
is retail, shareware, or free software out there that can do everything the
TSR CD does, and do it better.
My gripes:
The books are supposed to be hyperlinked? There are more hyperlinks on the
average web page! The few links are generally the "See also..." lines at the
ends of the sections and chapters. A really rich set of links would have
made the CD worthwhile for the books alone...as it is, I find the printed
books more convenient -- and much more portable.
The Monstrous Manual art is *awful*! With all of the art that TSR has in
their archives, why did they use (for example) the same picture of a shark to
illustrate _all_ the various types of fish? Or the same shabby crow for all
the birds, from giant eagle on down? With all of the space on a CD-ROM, and
all of the art available, this is inexcusable.
The GM aid utilities are...poor. Really poor. In fact, I'd go for "awful" --
I've seen better programs written by total novices playing around with Visual
BASIC for the first time. The character generators are decent, though the
NPC generator didn't object in the slightest when I asked it to roll up a
dwarf wizard. (came out pretty good, too!) Still, a character generator is
easy enough to write...that's why most of us have, at one time or another.
I spent most of my time messing with the map drawing program. In brief, it
stinks. On ice. From a programmer's point of view, it looks like things are
half-finished. For example, the map symbols (yes, it's a
drop-the-icon-in-the-box thing) don't match up. Some are very realistic and
some are so badly drawn that I suspect somebody whipped them up in Paintbrush
on a 16-color display the night before they cut the master CD. Some are
"smart", like city walls and dungeon doors, checking nearby squares to see if
there's something they should attach themselves to; others are not only
totally stupid, but they're provided in only one orientation. For example,
lighthouses (a really pretty graphic, btw) can only be put on the western
shores of bodies of water...at least, their water is on the eastern side, so
they'd look funny elsewhere...and bridges only run one direction, though I
forget whether it's N/S or E/W.
OK, so the outdoor mapping reeks. And the town maps do, too -- for example,
the village well is bigger than a house! I was attracted to the promise of
3D dungeon views. Gods, was I ever disappointed.
Yes, in principle, it's there. Sort of. Partly.
You can draw your dungeon map and render it in 3D. Unfortunately:
1) The graphics quality is ABYSMAL. I'm tempted to send the programmers a
copy of "Tricks Of The Game Programming Gurus" for Christmas. We're talking
something that makes Wolfenstein 3D look good -- at least things stayed put
(see 3) in Wolf.
2) Quite a few of the symbols that you can place on the map vanish in the
3D view. Just trivial things...like stairs....
3) The objects that _do_ appear in 3D are better left out. Not only are they
badly drawn, but they have some serious flaws. For example, chairs and stools
are quite a bit taller than tables. And things tend to take off and float in
the air when seen from more than a couple of squares away.
If I want a 3D map, I'd be better off using a WADfile editor and Doom, Hexen,
or the like!
And there are innumerable other things that seemed botched. The status bar:
when you put the cursor over a map symbol in the toolbox, for some it says
(for example) "the current symbol is a bridge", for others it just says
"bridge", and once you've selected a symbol, that status bar just goes back
to saying "Ready"...wouldn't *that* be the time to have it say "the current
symbol is a bridge"? The road and river drawing tools don't draw at the point
of their little arrows, like you'd expect...your smudgy line shows up half-
way across the cursor. Some symbols are on transparent backgrounds, so that
the terrain they're dropped on shows through. This is as it should be, no?
But others, like that aforementioned one-way bridge, aren't. This means that
1) you can only place them on grassy terrain, since they come with their own
collection of grass, and 2) once you've put in a bridge (or whatever), you
have to try to draw your river right up to (which is tough, the river tool
sort of smudges around -- trying for a 'natural' look?) but not onto that
bridge.
The one piece of good news was that, now that I'm running it with Win95
instead of Win3.1, the map program didn't crash once! I have a strong feeling
that the problems I was having earlier had something to do with Win32S, which
is not the best behaved thing around.
The other features of the DM aid software are not nearly as bad. (It's hard
to be...) The encounter and treasure generators seemed rather laborious to
use, and more effort than the results were worth, but perhaps that's because
I did not spend as much time working with them. (Shameless plug: or because
I'm used to TableMaster?) Speaking of things that roll on tables, the CD's
table rolling featuree seemed, well, futile. For example, you tell it to roll
on the magic items table. It gives you a result like "44 - Wands". OK, *what*
wand? You have to roll on the wands table to find out. Knowing how easy that
is to do in TableMaster (remember, I *am* the Wintertree person...this is
that bias I warned you about) I really wonder why they didn't have it go and
roll on the Wands table itself.
Overall:
PRO: The books *are* there. Once I get the Monstrous Manual stuffed into an
MS-Access database, I can put whatever art I feel like in it. 8-) There are
some hyperlinks, and I'm seriously considering writing a program to crawl
over the whole thing, hunt down stuff that _should_ be linked, and convert
the whole thing to HTML. (Hmmmmm...y'know, that would be an awfully handy
program to have anyway, wouldn't it? For much more mundane uses, like writing
complex web pages) The character generator is quite nice, and fairly well
done. The little movie is nifty. The help wizard is...interesting. (though
only the size of my thumb)
CON: The utility programs are either trivial or worse than useless. The map
program in particular appears to be half-finished. It makes competing
products from Digital Alchemy, ProFantasy, NBOS, and some folks (PhD
something?) that I stumbled across at GenCon look like Porsches racing a
broken-down VW. The entire product seems to be half-finished.
IN SUM: 2 on a scale of 1-10. Great concept, great framework, TERRIBLE
execution. Lots of pretty icing, no cake underneath. My guess is that TSR
gave the third-party developers a deadline (GenCon) and they rushed out
whatever they had ready or could make run, finished or not. Hopefully they'll
have version 1.1 out Real Soon Now, and give out upgrades to those of us
who've got the original. My recommendation: Wait until they do.
Caveat: This is just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.
*Remember* that I am the publisher of RP game aid software, and I am on
friendly terms with the publishers of directly competing programs, so I am
most likely a lot more biased than I think I am.
But I've got the Core Rules CD-ROM, and so many people are asking what folks
think about it, I felt like I might as well pitch in my two coppers.
-- Jean McGuire
Wintertree Software
http://www.io.com/~wtsoft
Rob Hobbs
In <50f3b4$c...@news.inforamp.net>, sco...@inforamp.net\peter...@youngmerlin.com (Tom Miller or Peter Miller) writes:
>>blocky outdoor map. I have had this software for 24 hours and I
>alredy know
>>that I will never use in real game play or creation.
>
>was one thing I wondered, why are the maps so blocky? Will this be
>fxed in more version? I didn't get it, it doesn't make sense why the
>forests and such are in square blocks (even when hex grid is on)
>
>
>
>Thanks,
>
>Peter
Don't ask TSR, ask the company they hired to write the software.
Anybody know who that is?
IMHO, the CD is on a scale of 1 to 10 about a 2. Granted I've
only seen the Demo, but I have seen posts on here about the
real thing and almost all of them were bad.
Key screwups that I have seen or heard about:
1. Blocky maps.
2. Treasure generator ONLY rolls treasure types A-Z
(ie you can't use it to roll up 13 gems or 7 art objects)
3. Treasure generator does not give a value for each gem or
art object, simply a total.
4. Treasure generator does not give a description of the
gem or art object. (ie a 700gp Ruby, or 1200gp diamond
studded necklace)
5. No search engine for the online books.
6. Handout editor is not WYSIWIG with regard to picture
placement.
(there are more, but I don't remember them right now)
Sorry if my opinion upsets somebody, but for circa $65 this
CD just isn't worth it.
Have a good one...
Rob
VPenman
>Don't ask TSR, ask the company they hired to write the software.
>Anybody know who that is?
Evermore Entertainment, Inc. did this product.
Victor Penman
President, Evermore Entertainment, Inc.
Joseph DuBois
Just a basic question:
Does anyone know the format of the database used for the
CD-ROM files? They end in a suffix of (*.cid)?
Thanks,
Scooby
sco...@interramp.com
LaffnOtter
<<Evermore Entertainment, Inc. did this product.
Victor Penman>>
I wnted you to know I took the CD back and got a refund. I could not
justify the expence for the level of product delivered. The screens
weren't even spell checked! I can understand working against a deadline,
but to release a product that is (IMHO) only ready for beta testing is not
a good idea, and in this case has given both your company and TSR a bad
reputation.
My wife works for a software publisher, so I'm not just talking out my
backside here. Her company would not have released this product as it
stands.
It needs an entirely new mapping engine (the problems with 3D object
placement have been mentioned); there needs to be more availablity of
customizing things like races and proficiencies, and I for one would like
a cheat toggle to allow you to write up illegal characters. I would hope
that the Options books will be incorperated to the 2.0 release, or made
available on their own.
I must compliment your artists on the character pictures. I enjoyed them
very much.
Thank you for your time,
Bryan.
By the time justice is done, injustice has often accomplished all it set
out to do.
J. McGuire
Not entirely relevant to this threaed, but relevant to the message I'm
replying to, anyway:
In a burst of insanity, I wrote a TableMaster table that generates web
pages with treasure lists and I'm posting the output output to the
Wintertree web site. Check the "random dragon and treasure" listing
(found under GOODIES from the home page, will have a better link later)
for one dragon and its assorted stuff: gems (with value), jewelry (with
descriptions), art objects, coins, magic items, potions...the works.
This will be switching to a new dragon and treasure list daily, once this
poor DOS weenie pounds some sense into Unix...I'm going 'round and 'round
with crontab right now. <sigh> Right now, it's switching whenever I get
a chance to ftp up a new list. 8-(
Check out www.irony.com for the Irony Games on-web RPG tools... I've got an
awful case of "I wish I'd done that" blues!
And there's always hope that Evermore might finish the Core Rules CD... 'bout
as much chance as Microsoft releasing a stable operating system, perhaps, but
I haven't lost hope yet.
-- JMM
Wintertree Software
http://www.io.com/~wtsoft
Greg Weller
J. McGuire (7322...@compuserve.com) wrote:
: I have had the Core Rules CD-ROM since GenCon, though the difficulties I
: had getting Windows 95 installed and stable delayed my evaluation of it
: quite a bit. The fact that I'm working on a side-by-side review of five
: different RPG mapping programs eats my free time,too. A few quick
: comments on it:
: *** IMPORTANT NOTE ***
<longish review snipped in which the author warned peope that she represents
a software company the might be seen as a competitor with TSR. She concludes:>
: IN SUM: 2 on a scale of 1-10. Great concept, great framework, TERRIBLE
: execution. Lots of pretty icing, no cake underneath. My guess is that TSR
: gave the third-party developers a deadline (GenCon) and they rushed out
: whatever they had ready or could make run, finished or not. Hopefully they'll
: have version 1.1 out Real Soon Now, and give out upgrades to those of us
: who've got the original. My recommendation: Wait until they do.
: Caveat: This is just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.
: -- Jean McGuire
: Wintertree Software
: http://www.io.com/~wtsoft
I have to agree with Jean on her assessment of the program, although
I have to add also, that besides being disappointing in execution, it
also crashes on my system about every 20 minutes. I'm running a
Pentium-90 with 32 meg of memory, and I don't have a probelm with any
other major program, so I hardly think it's my system. I can't remember
when I have seen such a sloppy piece of work released. But I wouldn't
hold your breath waiting for an update, or a version 1.1. When Sean
asked for suggestions about what things we would like to see on the
TSR web site, I emailed him that I would like to see some updates for
'that peice of crap CD program that I just wasted 60.00+ on... (okay, so
I was royally pissed after having it crash and lock up my system tighter
than a drum for the third time in a row...)' His whole response was:
'don't ask me, write to the people that programmed it'. I realize that
TSR is not Microsoft, but if they are going to take so little responsibility
for one of their programs, why should they expecet anyone to buy from
them? (Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know why....because they can afford the
army of lawyers to enforce the copy right laws that prevents anyone who is
capable of writing a good program from marketing it--I guess that's
their solution--hire all the lawyers they want, but hire incompetents
for the programming jobs.)
Greg (still somewhat fuming over spending all that money on such
a *shoddy* piece of work, when it had the potential to be so good).
VPenman
Greg,
Can you give us any information as to what you are doing with the program
when it crashes? I understand this is contrary to your experience, but it
doesn't crash at all for most users.
Evermore Entertainment programmed this product and we stand behind it. As
we become aware of problems we do fix them. If you could give us some
insight into the problem, it's a lot more likely we will be able to fix
it.
You can e-mail information and comments to me -- VPe...@aol.com. I am the
president of Evermore. I also own the company. You can reach our helpline
at (608) 827-5317. If this is too inconvenient for you, e-mail your phone
number and a time when you will be in front of your computer and we will
try to contact you.
As I said, we are working on fixing all problems as we become aware of
them. When we have a fix, it will be delivered to TSR for distribution.
Victor
VPenman
Bryan,
Sorry you didn't like it.
Victor
TSR Online Coordinator
A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
Greg Weller (fal...@junior.apk.net) wrote:
>when I have seen such a sloppy piece of work released. But I wouldn't
>hold your breath waiting for an update, or a version 1.1. When Sean
>asked for suggestions about what things we would like to see on the
>TSR web site, I emailed him that I would like to see some updates for
>'that peice of crap CD program that I just wasted 60.00+ on... (okay, so
>I was royally pissed after having it crash and lock up my system tighter
>than a drum for the third time in a row...)' His whole response was:
>'don't ask me, write to the people that programmed it'. I realize that
>TSR is not Microsoft, but if they are going to take so little responsibility
>for one of their programs, why should they expecet anyone to buy from
>them? (Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know why....because they can afford the
Once again, let me point out that TSR did not do the programming for
this product. Evermore Entertainment, Inc. wrote it, and they are
quite good at checking their email and posts in this newsgroup
when people are having problems with the ROM. _They_ will provide
updates to me, and _I_ will place them on our online sites. You need
to address your concerns to them, as they are the ones with the know-how
to fix the problems. I can't magically pull bug fixes out of my backside
when the software crashes - any problems you have should be reported to
the developers so they will have the most info on what bugs exist.
I can do _nothing_ to help you at this time other than pointing you
to a FAQ or to Evermore Entertainment, Inc.
--
Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/
Ever notice how fast Windows runs? Neither did I.
SL Nyveen
Sean -
Does the Core Rules CD-ROM count as a product published by TSR for the
purposes of the TSR rebate, or is it considered a product of Evermore?
Laurie Nyveen lawr...@netuser.com
________________________________________________________________
Editor, Netsurfer Digest - http://www.netsurf.com/nsd/index.html
DNRC Minister of Adding "ue" to Words That End in "log"
Steven Taylor
LaffnOtter wrote:
>
> I wnted you to know I took the CD back and got a refund. I could not
> justify the expence for the level of product delivered. The screens
> weren't even spell checked!
I thought they did this to keep up the TSR tradition of having typos on
every other page of an initial release of a product ;)
--
Steven Taylor
[Players] know what to expect, and that is all they are
prepared to believe in
-paraphrased from Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Are Dead
TSR Online Coordinator
A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
SL Nyveen (lawr...@netuser.com) wrote:
>Does the Core Rules CD-ROM count as a product published by TSR for the
>purposes of the TSR rebate, or is it considered a product of Evermore?
Which rebate are you referring to?
--
Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/
"You're so nineteen-ninety, and it's nineteen-ninety-four.
Leave this world behind me, 'cause you don't want me any more."
- 'Shoe Box,' Barenaked Ladies
SL Nyveen
> SL Nyveen (lawr...@netuser.com) wrote:
> >Does the Core Rules CD-ROM count as a product published by TSR for the
> >purposes of the TSR rebate, or is it considered a product of Evermore?
>
> Which rebate are you referring to?
The rebate slip that came in the Core Rules box. "Ten Dollars Rebate on
TSR Product Purchase". It's green, about two incces by six inches,
copyright 1996.
Or did I win some sort of sweepstakes? :)
Ben Krauskopf
Hi,
I am not personally displeased with my purchase. I did not care
for the mapmaker (to simplistic), but I got what I figured I was paying
for: the electronic text of the 5 books named on the box. I would like
to know where I can email a suggestion (specificaly that the random
encounter table printout include numbers and/or the ability to export
them to a wordprocessor to be consolidated on one sheet.)
I was pleased with the character generator as far as it went.
A much more useful product for me would be one with support for kits
and the ability to add my own proficiencies, etc. to the database.
Are there any plans for something like this in the works?
Thanks,
Ben Krauskopf
Steve
>Once again, let me point out that TSR did not do the programming for
>this product. Evermore Entertainment, Inc. wrote it, and they are
>quite good at checking their email and posts in this newsgroup
>when people are having problems with the ROM. _They_ will provide
>updates to me, and _I_ will place them on our online sites. You need
>to address your concerns to them, as they are the ones with the know-how
>to fix the problems. I can't magically pull bug fixes out of my backside
>when the software crashes - any problems you have should be reported to
>the developers so they will have the most info on what bugs exist.
>I can do _nothing_ to help you at this time other than pointing you
>to a FAQ or to Evermore Entertainment, Inc.
1) Where would those of us not willing to waste our money on something
like AOL or GENIE get the updates if they are ever produced, as TSR
does not have a good internet site?
2) On the box it shows the map generator with a hell of a lot more
symbols to use than the actual program has (it also shows this in the
book itself). Where are these icons?
3) In a Dragon review( as well as the booklet (pathetic) that comes
with the CD) of the CD it said you could do nonstandard multiclasses
such as Dwarven Paladin/Bard (issue 231 pg 60, pg 9 of booklet) or any
other such combo, but this is not possible. Why?
Jason Hatter
Steve (moo...@cnnet.com) wrote:
: 1) Where would those of us not willing to waste our money on something
: like AOL or GENIE get the updates if they are ever produced, as TSR
: does not have a good internet site?
Why would the quality of the site interfere with your ability to retreive
the updates? And for what its' worth, Sean is currently in the process
of creating the "official" site...
--
Jason
http://www.cris.com/~towonder/
RPG stuff at http://www.cris.com/~towonder/rpg.html
featuring Sailor Moon V at http://www.cris.com/~towonder/fanfic.html
TSR Online Coordinator
A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
>1) Where would those of us not willing to waste our money on something
>like AOL or GENIE get the updates if they are ever produced, as TSR
>does not have a good internet site?
I'll see about getting them put on MPGN.
>2) On the box it shows the map generator with a hell of a lot more
>symbols to use than the actual program has (it also shows this in the
>book itself). Where are these icons?
As with most software, the box design is done with earlier material
and is often printed months ahead of the actual release date.
Those icons might have been changed before the final version -
or (as I have no yet gotten my hands upon a copy of it) might
be in there somewhere and you haven't seen them yet.
>3) In a Dragon review( as well as the booklet (pathetic) that comes
>with the CD) of the CD it said you could do nonstandard multiclasses
>such as Dwarven Paladin/Bard (issue 231 pg 60, pg 9 of booklet) or any
>other such combo, but this is not possible. Why?
Same situation ... Dragon 231 was the July issue, and the material
for that went to the printers somewhere in early June or late May,
with the article having been written even earlier than that
(obviously). Things changed.
TSR Online Coordinator
A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
Ben Krauskopf (bkk...@tamaix.tamu.edu) wrote:
>A much more useful product for me would be one with support for kits
>and the ability to add my own proficiencies, etc. to the database.
>Are there any plans for something like this in the works?
While I can't say what is going to be on it, TSR and Evermore already
have another ROM in the works. It will probably have what you'd
expect it to have.
[Sorry about the awkward wording and dodging the question, but until
the '97 catalog comes out, I can't give any firm details, lest they
come back to haunts later if those details change.]
--
Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/
Do not marry a person that you know you can live with; only marry
someone that you cannot live without.
VPenman
Moonbow:
>>1) Where would those of us not willing to waste our money on something
like AOL or GENIE get the updates if they are ever produced, as TSR
does not have a good internet site?<<
TSR will have to answer this one.
>>2) On the box it shows the map generator with a hell of a lot more
symbols to use than the actual program has (it also shows this in the
book itself). Where are these icons?<<
Which book? Let me look into this and get back to you.
>>3) In a Dragon review( as well as the booklet (pathetic) that comes
with the CD) of the CD it said you could do nonstandard multiclasses
such as Dwarven Paladin/Bard (issue 231 pg 60, pg 9 of booklet) or any
other such combo, but this is not possible. Why?<<
You can make a dwarven paladin (as it says in the booklet on pg 9). You
cannot make a dwarven paladin/bard. You can combine races and classes in
ways which are not allowed in the PHB, but you cannot make new classes or
class combinations. The only paladin/bard combo would be a human dual
class.
Victor
VPenman
Ben,
Consider your suggestion e-mailed.
Any announcements on future products will have to come from TSR.
Victor
Andrew Spencer
> I wnted you to know I took the CD back and got a refund. I could not
> justify the expence for the level of product delivered. The screens
> but to release a product that is (IMHO) only ready for beta testing is not
> a good idea, and in this case has given both your company and TSR a bad
> reputation.
>
> My wife works for a software publisher, so I'm not just talking out my
> backside here. Her company would not have released this product as it
> stands.
And just to point out stupid details, the monster pictures are a
rip-off!
I checked out OWL, EAGLE, HAWK, SWAN, and found them all to look like
ravens!!! On a CD they should have fit it some more art. And the
handout generator is just a glorified version of Wordpad. Someone
should assemble the best Shareware versions of the utilities on the CD
and post them for easy reach so no others have to suffer through this
TSR crap. 60 bucks for a pre-beta, my god even Microsoft isn't that
cheap. Get Microsoft Office, and you can create a really awesome core
set on your own. Database the stats, monsters, and proficiencies, and
make a really cool character sheet in Word 6.0 or 7.0 and you can do a
hell of a lot better than TSR.
LaffnOtter
<<While I can't say what is going to be on it, TSR and Evermore already
have another ROM in the works. It will probably have what you'd
expect it to have.>>
I hope it does; I also hope that the comments (constructive and otherwise)
have been noted by the software design staff. Something oriented towards
AD&D needs to as flexable as possible. Perhaps a "Cheat" toggle that will
allow illegal combinations like the paladin-bard. Or a Centaur
archmage...
Just comments..
Peter David Boddy
Andrew Spencer (aspe...@maine.maine.edu) wrote:
> And just to point out stupid details, the monster pictures are a
> rip-off!
> I checked out OWL, EAGLE, HAWK, SWAN, and found them all to look like
> ravens!!! On a CD they should have fit it some more art. And the
> handout generator is just a glorified version of Wordpad. Someone
> should assemble the best Shareware versions of the utilities on the CD
> and post them for easy reach so no others have to suffer through this
> TSR crap. 60 bucks for a pre-beta, my god even Microsoft isn't that
> cheap. Get Microsoft Office, and you can create a really awesome core
> set on your own. Database the stats, monsters, and proficiencies, and
> make a really cool character sheet in Word 6.0 or 7.0 and you can do a
> hell of a lot better than TSR.
Yeah, right, like I have the time in my life right now, to start
data-basing five books just to make something better. I would rather buy
it thanks. From what I have seen, it is a reasonable product, and
nobody's perfect. I am sure the feed back from this newsgroups alone will
alter what TSR does for future core rules cds.
Pete
Pete aka Spitfire
Test your might...
..on my Mortal Kombat Pages...http://chat.carleton.ca/~pdboddy...
..against the likes of: Scorpion Rain Classic Sub-Zero Reptile
Noob Saibot Classic Smoke Ermac
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter David Boddy
Carleton University
Email address: pdb...@chat.carleton.ca
Email address: bx...@freenet.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------
silv...@ix.netcom.com
Just to add my $0.02 ....
As a programmer who has written my own character generator, and other
DM tools, I wanted to drop a line in response to the various
complaints I have noted:
1) The same picture is used for all birds, fish, whatever.
Gee, the package says it contains the entire PHB, DMG, MM, ToM, and
A&EG on the CD. That's what you got. These monsters have a single
group entry in the MM, using the same picture, so that's what's on the
CD. Nobody promised any *new* art, iI recall correctly.
2) The map editor is all squares.
Well, gee, it's rather nice that there is a map editor at all,
considering that the whole point was to put the core rules on CD-ROM
for easy reference. So, it could be better. How about some
constructive commentary like: "It might be better if...." instead of
ranting: "Its awful. I'm sorry I bought it; it isn't perfect !"
3) Problems with the 3-D view.
I'm doubly impressed that *it* is included at all.
4) The Handout generator is just a cheesy text editor.
Ever try to write one ? Especially one that uses backgrounds ? BTW,
for those who are interested, the Handout generator is an OLE object
that can be inserted into, oh.... say...., Word documents, Excel
spreadsheets, Access databases, and other OLE-compliant software. Not
a bad tool for tweaking those custom-built home-made DM toolkits.
5) The Character generator doesn't do kits, or custom
proficiencies.
Well, they aren't part of the PHB, DMG, MM, ToM, or A&EG are they ?
More seriously, having written my own programs that *do* these things,
I can tell you it was an awful experience. Software relies on the
presumption that there is a systematic way to represent something - in
this case that there is a systematic way of representing all changes
to the characters. Unfortunately for the software designer, AD&D is a
*very* complex and flexible system, whose nuances can be tweaked in a
thousand non-systematic ways. Trying to create a design that allows
for this is *extremely* difficult, and it may not be possible to
represent 100% of the published options.
Now, I'm not saying that it is perfect, but I am saying that many
of the complaints I have seen are unreasonable. Many complaints seem
to have expected more than was promised, and to be trashing Evermore
and TSR for not delivering up to these expectations. I agree with, and
find to be mroe reasonable, the following items:
1) The hyper-text linking could be more complete.
2) A more open database format could have been used for the
monsters (personally, I'd have preferred Access; I don't recognize
this one at all).
3) The map icons could be more adaptable. (I almost think it
might have been better to have licensed ShapeWare's VISIO engine, or
to have provided a set of VISIO templates for this item - but I'm
biased because I use VISIO myself).
I can't honestly comment too muc on the mapping utility; I
haven't explored it as much as I'd like to.
Hope that helps.....
Silv...@ix.netcom.com
Mark....@es.nemc.org
Silv...@aol.com
Tom Miller or Peter Miller
Hello,
In the recent past I kind of trashed some of the tools of the CD.
However, after readng some of the commentary and stuff, I've had a
change of heart. The only things I can point out that ar ebad are:
Block maps...I realyl would have liked the maps to be more adaptable.
Could this possibly be fixed in a patch by Evermore?
From what I've heard the 3-D tour of the dungeon isn't very good, but,
having not tried it, I'm not in a position to say.
I'm also pointing this at some people wishing kits and such were on
the CD. Think about the title 'Core Rules'. The kits and custom
proficiences your looking for are NOT Core Rules, niether are the
Castle building rules. I'm sure that as we speak Evermore and TSR are
working on AD&D Optional Rules CD or whatever with C&T, S&P, etc. on
it.
My biggest problem is the price. Don't know if it's only my game
store, but they're selling it for $109.95 Canadian. Could someone
please tell me whatt he suggested retail Canadian price is?
Thanks,
Peter Miller
Steve
>I'm also pointing this at some people wishing kits and such were on
>the CD. Think about the title 'Core Rules'. The kits and custom
>proficiences your looking for are NOT Core Rules, niether are the
>Castle building rules. I'm sure that as we speak Evermore and TSR are
>working on AD&D Optional Rules CD or whatever with C&T, S&P, etc. on
>it.
I hope this comes out soon
>My biggest problem is the price. Don't know if it's only my game
>store, but they're selling it for $109.95 Canadian. Could someone
>please tell me whatt he suggested retail Canadian price is?
I bought it at Coles for @$58 Canadian.
Other problems I have found are in the Encounters part. I cant
believe they did not even include Drow as an encounter, and they dont
even let you create an encounter using Drow. The closest they have is
Driders, which in my campaigns I basically ignore since the players
are hardly ever in a position to encounter them.
This is probably true of other monsters which I havent tried to make
an encounter for yet, but not including Drow is unforgivable.
Also when you put in your own monsters some of the stats get screwed
up.
I thing I'll stick to my old DM's Assistant which was put out for the
1st edition for creating encounters. For something that doesnt take
up even one floppy, it's a hell of a lot better put together than the
new CD.
>Peter Miller
Steve
> 1) The hyper-text linking could be more complete.
> 2) A more open database format could have been used for the
>monsters (personally, I'd have preferred Access; I don't recognize
>this one at all).
This would also fix the problems everyone is having putting monsters
in just to have them not work right.
> 3) The map icons could be more adaptable. (I almost think it
>might have been better to have licensed ShapeWare's VISIO engine, or
>to have provided a set of VISIO templates for this item - but I'm
>biased because I use VISIO myself).
Where can I pick up a test version of VISIO, never heard of it before.
Kendall P. Bullen
In article <Dx7G0...@lexmark.com>, roh...@lexmark.com wrote:
>3. Treasure generator does not give a value for each gem or
> art object, simply a total.
>4. Treasure generator does not give a description of the
> gem or art object. (ie a 700gp Ruby, or 1200gp diamond
> studded necklace)
Hmm, it did both of these things when I used it. Did we use a different
"Core Rules CD-ROM, perhaps? ;)
>5. No search engine for the online books.
Hmm, the Microsoft Help format ones are searchable, though it's limited.
As is RTF, once you import it into a WP.
Just some comments,
Kendall
--
Kendall P. Bullen ken...@his.com or kbu...@tax.org
. . . take your pick!
Bob Gibson
VPenman (vpe...@aol.com) wrote:
: Greg,
Victor:
First, I would like to thank you for your attitude. It is the right
one to have. Please continue to hold onto it...
Here is a "problem report" for you.
Program: Character Generator
Severity: (Significant) Annoyance
Description: After having spent more than 30 minutes entering the
description of an existing character, I happened to
press ESC in an attempt to back up a page. Some of
the software I use requires one to prefix control
codes with an ESC.
I was astonished to see the main menu displayed before
me! All of that work with thrown away! Yikes!
Suggestion: Please! Please! Please! Get them to add an "Are you
really sure you want to throw away all that work"
Dialog box (or something).
Thanks
Bob
--
Bob Gibson -- gib...@netcom.com
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any |
| form, in whole or in part without license. License to distribute |
| this work is available to Microsoft at $500. Transmission without |
| permission constitutes an agreement to these terms. |
| Permission is hereby granted to duplicate this restriction. |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Chris Sleep
In article <50lbl6$8...@nerd.apk.net>, fal...@junior.apk.net (Greg Weller) writes:
>J. McGuire (7322...@compuserve.com) wrote:
>: *** IMPORTANT NOTE ***
><longish review snipped in which the author warned peope that she represents
>a software company the might be seen as a competitor with TSR. She concludes:>
>: IN SUM: 2 on a scale of 1-10. Great concept, great framework, TERRIBLE
>: execution. Lots of pretty icing, no cake underneath.
[snip]
>: Hopefully they'll
>: have version 1.1 out Real Soon Now, and give out upgrades to those of us
>: who've got the original. My recommendation: Wait until they do.
>
>: Caveat: This is just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.
>I have to agree with Jean on her assessment of the program, although
>I have to add also, that besides being disappointing in execution, it
>also crashes on my system about every 20 minutes. I'm running a
>Pentium-90 with 32 meg of memory, and I don't have a probelm with any
>other major program, so I hardly think it's my system.
What OS are you running? I have an old (and occasionally cranky) 486/66 with 16 meg,
running win95 (yeah, I gave in and decided to try it), and I haven't seen a single crash
so far.
> I can't remember
>when I have seen such a sloppy piece of work released.
>Greg (still somewhat fuming over spending all that money on such
>a *shoddy* piece of work, when it had the potential to be so good).
I picked up the core rules CD this weekend - having spent about 8 hours looking at it
here's my opinion so far.
Price: UKP 29.95 (virgin megastore) - not as expensive as I'd expected having heard tales
of copies going for around $60 in the states. A current new copy of the PHB goes for
between 11.99 and 13.99 in the UK, so the cost of the CD is certainly less than the cost of
the 5 books on line.
I've been playing 1st Edition AD&D on and off for the past decade and a bit, but I sold
off most of the books a long time ago. When I get to play now, it's mostly 2nd Ed, so
I decided that the CD offered a reasonable way to find out what's changed between the two
editions, without having to shell out for all the books. I can't say that I had any
real desire to pick up Arms & Equipment, but 29.95 for the DMG/PHB/TOM/MC isn't a bad
price. One advantage that I can see is that I can pull sections from the RTF text
together pretty easily, so I can run off character spellbooks complete with spell
descriptions and save the hassle of having to search through assorted manuals when I need
them.
Now for my opinions of the package and options itself...
First up - the presentation - A large box containing empty air, a sheet of installation
notes, and the CD in a card envelope. This is abysmal! There isn't even a CD jewel case
in there. I would much prefer to buy the CD alone in a jewel case, with the install
guide as an insert there. The first thing I did when I got the box open was to throw the
huge resource waste of an outer box into the recycling bin, and rip apart the useless
card envelope to put inside a spare jewel case that was lying around.
Installation..... What a pain! As I mentioned above, I'm running w95 on a 486/66. Since
I want to use the Core Rules more for reference than anything else, I decided to go for the
minimal install - I don't care about waiting for data to load from CD, I'd rather use my
hard drive space for something else. Unfortunately the minimal installation option
doesn't work as well as it should - the final stage of the install requests a program
group (or whatever they're called under '95) to put the programs into..... but it doesn't
create them. (it *does* work under a typical install if you choose that). I ended up
having to run the minimall install, and then drop to alias for the core rules program
into the program group manually. Having tried this, the program will run, but occasionally
it decides that it can't find the books on-line, which means I have to restart.
Now for the programs..
Staring with the books on-line (the main reason I bought the CD after all).
The text is all there (as far as I can tell.. although it's a shame that half orcs are
no longer player character options under 2nd Ed. There go a host of my characters :-( )
but i'm disappointed in the distinct lack of artwork in the on line guides. Why not include
illustrations in the MC and A&E guides? The MC seems to be pretty much obsolete with the
inclusion of the monster generator, which reprises the data from the compendium, but this
time it does include an illustration (although there aren't as many as there could be -
all fish are apparently sharks...)
Other than that there's not a lot to say about the books on-line - the data is there, it's
(albeit minimally) hyperlinked, and as a reference set, it satisfies my requirements.
The character generator is the tool that I think I'll use the most (hey, I *like* rolling
up characters, regardless of whether I'm ever going to do anything with them or not).
It's reasonably well featured, but it's a little annoying at times - for example, it
chooses the set of proficiencies for each character, which means that I have to then
remove the default selection, and then select the proficiencies that I want. Some times
the default proficiencies don't really work (why would my dwarven warrior want to specialise
in the longbow???). Arms and equipment are automatically selected for you, and seem to be
preselected using the same rules as the proficiencies - hence, having decided against a
longbow proficiency, I then have to sell off the longbow that's been purchased for me.
The organisation of equipment into bags/quivers etc isn't too bad, it's driven by an
explorer/file manager style list interface, but I would have preferred an interface
similar to that used in eye of the beholder, where I can see exactly where things are at
a glance.
Finally, the character generator lets you create a charcter history, and attach an
associated character portrait. Why is there no image preview available!!? There are
a good range of available portraits, but since they're all hidden behind such useful
names as elf1, elf2 etc, I really can't be bothered selecting each one in turn to see if
it fits my conception of the character. The character history section is a missed
opportunity - it's just a plain text box to be filled as desired. An optional
background hook generation would have been very useful here.
The other tools, the monster, encounter, npc and map generators are not particularly
well designed. They do the job, but they're messy. I really can't see much value for the
dice generator - again it's messy - If I want to roll a single d6, I have to type in
'1' next to the d6 column.. simple enough, except if I delete the 0 first, the program
throws up an error message (and that's before pressing the 'roll' button) before I get a
chance to type in '1'. Bah!
The table generator isn't particularly useful either - (I can't remember if there's a space
for an optional DM's modifier, but I don't remember seeing one), and the results aren't
always useful (why can't the result of one table be linked into another table!)
To sum this product up - don't buy it for the tools!! I'm sure that there are much better
map/character and table generation packages out there - the ones provided with the core
rules CD rom are functional, and meet the blurb on the box, but they're not particularly
powerful, they're not flexible, and they're not particularly easy to use.
If you want to get hold of a reference copy of the 2nd ed. rules, then this may be an
economical way to do so (depending on the local retail price) - as I said above, that's
whay I bought it, and it meets that requirement for me.
Chris
silv...@ix.netcom.com
moo...@cnnet.com (Steve) wrote:
>Where can I pick up a test version of VISIO, never heard of it before.
I don't know if there is a demo version - VISIO is a commercial
drawing product that uses a drag-and-drop object metaphor. I have
created several AD&D-based "stencils" of common objects like doors,
statues, tables, chairs etc. It is available in most software stores,
usually in the CAD section. There were two versions: home and
"standard", now I see "standard" and "technical" on the shelves.
Good luck !
Silv...@ix.netcom.com
Mark....@es.nemc.org
Silv...@aol.com
Mark Gerdes
I've been waiting a long time for an effort to computerize
this system. I haven't had much time to put together
a campaign in years. Now that someone has finally
made a real attempt at it I intend to give them a chance
to support the product, fix the problems, and get to the
point where they can really start adding improvements.
I think it shows some promise and I'm going to stick
with it for the long haul. If they let me down on this
one though, then I'm really done with them for good.
As far as designing a better system with Office, who
has time for that?
Mark
Andrew Spencer <aspe...@maine.maine.edu> wrote:
>> I wnted you to know I took the CD back and got a refund. I could not
>> justify the expence for the level of product delivered. The screens
>> weren't even spell checked! I can understand working against a deadline,
>> but to release a product that is (IMHO) only ready for beta testing is not
>> a good idea, and in this case has given both your company and TSR a bad
>> reputation.
>>
>> My wife works for a software publisher, so I'm not just talking out my
>> backside here. Her company would not have released this product as it
>> stands.
>And just to point out stupid details, the monster pictures are a
>rip-off!
>I checked out OWL, EAGLE, HAWK, SWAN, and found them all to look like
>ravens!!! On a CD they should have fit it some more art. And the
>handout generator is just a glorified version of Wordpad. Someone
>should assemble the best Shareware versions of the utilities on the CD
>and post them for easy reach so no others have to suffer through this
>TSR crap. 60 bucks for a pre-beta, my god even Microsoft isn't that
>cheap. Get Microsoft Office, and you can create a really awesome core
>set on your own. Database the stats, monsters, and proficiencies, and
>make a really cool character sheet in Word 6.0 or 7.0 and you can do a
>hell of a lot better than TSR.
Andrew Spencer
Peter David Boddy wrote:
> Yeah, right, like I have the time in my life right now, to start
> data-basing five books just to make something better. I would rather buy
> it thanks. From what I have seen, it is a reasonable product, and
> nobody's perfect. I am sure the feed back from this newsgroups alone will
> alter what TSR does for future core rules cds.
>
Well, it's your loss, but databasing books doesn't take that long with a
scanner so I'm gonna build my own. I'll save my money for a map program
that doesn't look like an old boxy atari screen.
Maybe you'll change your mind after seeing the CD, anyway.
VPenman
Bob,
I'll go over this with the programmers.
Victor
VPenman
Peter,
Sorry to be late in getting back to you, I couldn't access my newsgroups
yesterday. Thanks for the kind words about the old DM assistant program.
There are some problems in the encounter generator and we are working on a
fix.
Victor
Kendall P. Bullen
>As with most software, the box design is done with earlier material
>and is often printed months ahead of the actual release date.
>Those icons might have been changed before the final version -
>or (as I have no yet gotten my hands upon a copy of it) might
>be in there somewhere and you haven't seen them yet.
A small suggestion: Next time, even though it's a cute flashy box, make
the box a little more in line with what is inside. Save some trees, save
some space, save on packaging costs, etc. :)
One AD&D geek's opinion,
TSR Online Coordinator
A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
SL Nyveen (lawr...@netuser.com) wrote:
>The rebate slip that came in the Core Rules box. "Ten Dollars Rebate on
>TSR Product Purchase". It's green, about two incces by six inches,
>copyright 1996.
Yes, it does count, but note that it says "rebate on _future_ purchase...."
So if you were going to buy _another_ CD-ROM....
--
Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/
"[Gays] have declared war on nature." - Pat Buchanan, 1983 (quoted by TIME
Magazine, 3/4/96)
J. McGuire
Kendall P. Bullen wrote:
> A small suggestion: Next time, even though it's a cute flashy box, make
> the box a little more in line with what is inside. Save some trees, save
> some space, save on packaging costs, etc. :)
That's something I want to address, from the point of view of a software
publisher:
If you buy TableMaster from me at a convention, a good chunk of what
you're
paying for is the pretty box. It costs more for the box, particularly
the
full-color wraparound sleeve, than it does for _everything_ that goes
inside...
except for the development work, of course. Now, my boxes are a bit
closer to
the size of their contents -- there's a 8.25"x5.5" manual inside, which
necessitates the 6"x9" box -- but, let's face it, the manual,
installation
pamphlet, user reg card, and disk(s) still rattle around in there a lot.
Why do I whack such a big chunk out of my profit margin when exactly the
same
thing could go just as neatly into a poly-bag, or into a paper envelope?
If you
buy it mail order, you'll get it exactly that way...I don't think either
one of
us wants to pay to ship a cardboard box cross-country (or
internationally).
Simple: PEOPLE WON'T BUY THE BLASTED THING WITHOUT THE BOX! Sounds
crazy, but
when folks come across the product at a convention, or on a store shelf,
they
expect a box. A decent-sized box. A flashy box. In fact, when I was
switching
from my old box design (pastels, due to limitations of the place I was
getting
things printed) to the new one (really flashy red/yellow/blue design on
black),
people insisted on the new box at conventions when I had them
side-by-side. No
matter that the contents were identical, the box was what caught their
eye. From
sales, comments, and other feedback, I've learned that those boxes are
critical
to the image of the product -- and people, far too often, buy image, not
substance. (Though I think I've got a damn good program in there, too)
You don't know how much I'd like to be able to package the software in
simple
poly-bags. Wintertree is not a very large operation, and it takes a
frightening
amount of time that could be spent doing more important things, just
putting
those sleeves together to slip on the boxes, shrink-wrapping boxes, etc.
It's
much faster and easier to drop it all in a poly-bag and zap it with the
sealer.
But there's a direct connection in my life between selling software and
buying
groceries, and people want those @#@(#$% boxes. So I do boxes.
It's something people really ought to think about: Do you judge a book
by its
over -- or a program by its box? If you stopped by my booth at GenCon,
would you
still buy my software if you saw it in poly bags, or paper envelopes,
instead of
flashy black boxes? How about if you saw it on the shelf at your local
game
store? Would it still look "real" to you? Would Wintertree still look
like a
"real company"?
There's far too much of a connection between "fancy box" and "good
product." You
can put anything you want to -- the Core Rules CD, maybe? -- into as
fancy a box
as you want. But until people quit equating "program in baggie" with
"amateur
work, not worth my money", we're gonna have to keep shrink-wrapping
those fancy
boxes. And so is everyone else.
Which is too bad. I know those sleeves my husband and I build so
carefully are
going to be torn in half and thrown in the trash, and the box is (at
best) going
to wind up storing miniatures. (That's what happened to the left-over
blue and
yellow pastel ones, btw -- they're full of mine) To be honest, it really
bothers me to see Joel working for hours putting together boxes to be
destroyed
in minutes. We don't want to do that.
But if we don't, we don't sell software. And we don't buy groceries. And
neither does Victor Penman, or Bill Gates.
-- Jean McGuire
Wintertree Software
http://www.io.com/~wtsoft
--
Wintertree Software
http://www.io.com/~wtsoft
Kendall P. Bullen
>It's something people really ought to think about: Do you judge a book
>by its
>over -- or a program by its box? If you stopped by my booth at GenCon,
>would you
>still buy my software if you saw it in poly bags, or paper envelopes,
>instead of
>flashy black boxes? How about if you saw it on the shelf at your local
>game
>store? Would it still look "real" to you? Would Wintertree still look
>like a
>"real company"?
(Your newsreader needs reconfiguring or something; all your lines look
like this, even *before* I quote them.)
It's sad that you're right. Well, the only "flashy" thing I require on a
software box is a screen-shot or three so that I can see what I'm getting
into. I suppose that most software I use/try out is shareware, freeware,
or has demos available on the Internet; I'm not sure when the last time I
bought a piece of software because of a flashy box was -- I tend to try to
read the descriptions and figure out if it does what I want, and if
possible, again, try a demo. But I see your point about flashy boxes.
Thanks for the comments.
>But until people quit equating "program in baggie" with "amateur
>work, not worth my money",
I guess those people aren't smart enough to try shareware, then, where
-god forbid- there's no box, and usually no disk! ;) Some of the best
software I use, and some that I use the most often, is shareware.
Newsreader, e-mail (home), text editor (home & work), a programming
language to do my job, et al.
Again, thanks for the comments.
Kendall (is there a demo of your product??? :)
Tim Breen
J. McGuire wrote:
> If you buy TableMaster from me at a convention, a good chunk of what you're
> paying for is the pretty box. It costs more for the box, particularly the
> full-color wraparound sleeve, than it does for _everything_ that goes inside...
This is not uncommon in retail marketing. Packaging and advertising can
be as high as 90% of the purchase price of some products.
> Simple: PEOPLE WON'T BUY THE BLASTED THING WITHOUT THE BOX! Sounds crazy, but
> when folks come across the product at a convention, or on a store shelf, they
> expect a box. A decent-sized box. A flashy box. In fact, when I was switching
> from my old box design (pastels, due to limitations of the place I was getting
> things printed) to the new one (really flashy red/yellow/blue design on black),
> people insisted on the new box at conventions when I had them side-by-side. No
> matter that the contents were identical, the box was what caught their eye. From
> sales, comments, and other feedback, I've learned that those boxes are critical
> to the image of the product -- and people, far too often, buy image, not
> substance. (Though I think I've got a damn good program in there, too)
...
> It's something people really ought to think about: Do you judge a book by its
> [c]over -- or a program by its box? If you stopped by my booth at GenCon, would you
> still buy my software if you saw it in poly bags, or paper envelopes, instead of
> flashy black boxes? How about if you saw it on the shelf at your local game
> store? Would it still look "real" to you? Would Wintertree still look like a
> "real company"?
...
> But if we don't, we don't sell software. And we don't buy groceries. And
> neither does Victor Penman, or Bill Gates.
The sad fact is, for the consumer there's nothing _else_ to go on in
most cases _but_ the box (in small-market industries). In most cases
it's tough to judge competing products in a rational, critical manner;
it's just not practical, even if the retailer is willing to let you.
Comparative reviews are rare, and the skills and judgements of the
reviewers are questionable (not necessarily bad, just subject to
question because it's _such_ a niche market). You get to the booth, or
the store, or see an ad somewhere and that's ALL you have to go on. So
you read the blurb, and you look at the pretty colors, and you hold your
breath, and you choose.
<sigh> Sad but true.
-- Tim
http://personalweb.lightside.com/Pfiles/breen1.html
" The Red Queen shook her head. "You may call it 'nonsense'
if you like," she said, "but _I've_ heard nonsense, compared
with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!" "
- Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
R. John Morrow
"J. McGuire" (7322...@compuserve.com) writes:
> Kendall P. Bullen wrote:
>
>> A small suggestion: Next time, even though it's a cute flashy box, make
>> the box a little more in line with what is inside. Save some trees, save
>> some space, save on packaging costs, etc. :)
>
(SNIP)
>
> Simple: PEOPLE WON'T BUY THE BLASTED THING WITHOUT THE BOX! Sounds
> crazy, but
> when folks come across the product at a convention, or on a store shelf,
> they
> expect a box. A decent-sized box. A flashy box. In fact, when I was
> switching
(SNIP)
Sigh. Sad but true. At least the trend in RPGs is away from boxed
sets and towards books. Who needs a box with three booklets in it when
one book will do?
--
"You're dead for a real long time, you just can't prevent it,
So if money can't buy happines, I guess I'll have to rent it."
- Weird Al-
TSR Online Coordinator
A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
Jean McGuire wrote:
> Why do I whack such a big chunk out of my profit margin
> when exactly the same thing could go just as neatly into a
> poly-bag, or into a paper envelope? If you buy it mail
> order, you'll get it exactly that way...I don't think
> either one of us wants to pay to ship a cardboard box
> cross-country (or internationally). Simple: PEOPLE WON'T
> BUY THE BLASTED THING WITHOUT THE BOX! Sounds crazy, but
> when folks come across the product at a convention, or on
> a store shelf, they expect a box. A decent-sized box. A
> flashy box.
Actually, even beyond that, retailerss simply _hate_ software that
isn't packaged in a big box. Why? Because it is far too easy to walk
off with it if you don't. I have worked for a major game software
company and they have the exact same problem - if you put it in a small
box, the retailers don't want it.
Then there's the whole visibility thing ... 8 2" boxes are a bigger
visual spectacle on a store's shelf than 8 CD jewel boxes. Guess which
one is going to grab the buyer's eye?
Not that I like this, that's just the way it works.
--
Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/
"Long live DJ [Dangerous Journeys], and its supreme god, Gygax!"
- Kevin S (from the MYTHUS mailing list)
Ratty
>The rebate slip that came in the Core Rules box. "Ten Dollars Rebate...
Can people from Europe use it with a receipt for goods in Europe (it says
$30 or more _worth_ of TSR products) or can we use it towards next
US GenCon?
Ratty
TSR Online Coordinator
A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
Ratty (ra...@cix.compulink.co.uk) wrote:
>Can people from Europe use it with a receipt for goods in Europe (it says
>$30 or more _worth_ of TSR products) or can we use it towards next
>US GenCon?
As long as you include a receipt, and your purchase is $30 or more
in US equivalent value, Europeans can use it. Note that we'll be
sending $10 US ...).
--
Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/
"Well, I fell down, with no one there to catch me from falling
Then she came 'round
Only her tenderness stopped me from bawlin' my eys out - I'm O.K."
'Life, In A Nutshell," - BareNaked Ladies
Tim Breen
> Then there's the whole visibility thing ... 8 2" boxes are a bigger
> visual spectacle on a store's shelf than 8 CD jewel boxes. Guess which
> one is going to grab the buyer's eye?
Of course, a jewel box _inside_ the 2" box would be nice. I was just
noticing that the CDs I have with jewel boxes are a lot more noticeable
on _my_ shelf at home, and get pulled out more often after the initial
"gee whiz" phase.
Just a thought.
Kendall P. Bullen
> Actually, even beyond that, retailerss simply _hate_ software that
>isn't packaged in a big box. Why? Because it is far too easy to walk
>off with it if you don't.
Hmm, well the CD sellers and manufacturers managed to do away with long
boxes, though some of them use other means (large reusable plastic things,
though the stores I went to in Europe didn't bother with those things).
Hmmness.
KPB
TSR Online Coordinator
A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
Kendall P. Bullen (ken...@his.com) wrote:
>In article <skreynDx...@netcom.com>, TSR...@aol.com wrote:
>Hmm, well the CD sellers and manufacturers managed to do away with long
>boxes, though some of them use other means (large reusable plastic things,
>though the stores I went to in Europe didn't bother with those things).
>Hmmness.
CD's don't often require 64-page manuals, though (yes, I know, the AD&D
CD-ROm doesn't have one...). I think the switch could be made if all
of the software co's agreed to do it, but nobody is willing to give up
that shelf space in favor of a less-dead-air form of packaging if they
think that there's at least one other place that's going to keep the
old boxes.
--
Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/
"What P.T. Barnum earned by convincing everybody in the nation that they
just _had_ to buy a ticket to see Jumbo the elephant amounts to peanuts
compared to the billions that Bill Gates of Microsoft has taken in from
sales of Windows, a big, expensive, and (in its early versions) clunky
imitation of the Macintosh graphical user interface. What made so many
people rush to buy Windows? Gates made it seem like the only relief in
sight from the cumbersome DOS program he had foisted upon his customers
in the first place."
- Theodore Roszak, _The Cult of Information_
Kevin Drayson
Tom Miller or Peter Miller wrote:
>
<SNIP>
> My biggest problem is the price. Don't know if it's only my game
> store, but they're selling it for $109.95 Canadian. Could someone
> please tell me whatt he suggested retail Canadian price is?
>
>
> Peter Miller
Down here in Moncton, our main/only gaming store is selling for $99.95 .
And I thought *that* was ridiculous! Windows 95 wasn't much more
expensive than that. Of course, I've noticed that TSR products have been
getting very expensive over the past couple of years (Those books and
magic-item books come to mind).
Kevin Drayson
kdra...@mis.ca
TSR Online Coordinator
A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
Kevin Drayson (kdra...@mi.net) wrote:
>Down here in Moncton, our main/only gaming store is selling for $99.95 .
>And I thought *that* was ridiculous! Windows 95 wasn't much more
>expensive than that. Of course, I've noticed that TSR products have been
>getting very expensive over the past couple of years (Those books and
>magic-item books come to mind).
The cost of paper has been increasing rapidly in the past few years.
--
Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/
"Some people are born mediocre, some people achieve mediocrity, and some
people have mediocrity thrust upon them."
- Joseph Heller
Tom Miller or Peter Miller
>The cost of paper has been increasing rapidly in
>the past few years.
Does this mean that the trend may start going
towards books on CD? Like the Core Rules CD-ROM?
This makes sense, as you can include several core
books, for a lower price, enticing more people to
start playing. Also, you can put tools on it,
simplifying game play, with things such as the
character creator and map maker (as per the Core
Rules disc).
Can you comment on whether or not TSR has
considered this? Perhaps a Forgotten Realms,
Ravenloft, etc. CD Disc with the material from the
campaign sets, as well the best sourcebook and
adventure. Include in this material some
world-specific tools, and I think it'd sell pretty
well.
Thanks,
Peter Miller
TSR Online Coordinator
A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
TSR is considering the idea of books on CD. I can't really say
more than that, but just know that I talked with management
at length about the future of role-playing games, and stressed
the electronic medium's involvement (FYI, I used to work for
a company that made CD-ROMs - interactive games and ref materials).
--
Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/
"A worthy woman is far more precious than jewels, strength and dignity are
her clothing."
- Proverbs 31
Kendall P. Bullen
>TSR is considering the idea of books on CD.
Books as in books you read? Like novels??? Bleah; what an eyestrain and
body strain to have to be in front of your computer to "curl up with a
good book" (grink). Good luck -- it won't fly.
Now, if you mean something along the lines of AD&D reference books (like
the ones on the "Core Rules" CD-ROM), then that's different. But please,
please, please, I can't stress it enough, in order for it to be really
useful and worth the $$$, use a real search engine. Otherwise, there's no
point in putting them on CD-ROM. But if you use a good search engine (cf.
Folio Views) so that people can, for instance, find all the references
that mention 'infravision' and 'astral plane' in the same breath --
that'll be useful! (Er, 'infravision and astral plane' is just a poor
example, BTW! ;)
Kendall (the company I work for does CD-ROMs too :)
--
Kendall P. Bullen
E-mail: ken...@his.com or kbu...@tax.org -- take your pick!
Web: http://www.his.com/~kendall/
Brett D Altschul
In article <skreynDx...@netcom.com>,
TSR Online Coordinator <TSR...@aol.com> wrote:
>The cost of paper has been increasing rapidly in the past few years.
This is certainly true, but the increase in paper costs hasn't been at the same
rate as the increase in the prices of TSR's books.
Demon Sultan of Khaipur
Brett Altschul
hnei...@access.awinc.com
skr...@netcom.com (TSR Online Coordinator) wrote:
>A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
>TSR is considering the idea of books on CD. I can't really say
>more than that, but just know that I talked with management
>at length about the future of role-playing games, and stressed
>the electronic medium's involvement (FYI, I used to work for
>a company that made CD-ROMs - interactive games and ref materials).
If you'd like some inkling of how popular this would likely be, check
out rec.games.frp.superhero's lengthy discussions of "hero plus" -
Hero Games is now publishing supplements on diskette in Adobe Acrobat
format. The move is, to say the least, controversial.
J.McGuire
Oh, gods, I'm defending T$R again... <shudder> ...but the paper price
increases really have been enormous. I'm paying twice what I was 3 years
ago. It's actually come down a bit lately. Like a lot of software
publishers, I'm looking at converting almost all my documentation to
helpfiles. That's something the I've insisted for years I wouldn't do,
because _I_ hate having to hunt through a help file for something,
instead of taking a nice thick manual to read in bed, but it's either
that or jack up the prices. And paper costs are a *much* smaller part of
my base cost than they are of TSR's.
Now, I'm not saying that they'er _not_ the Greedy Evil Empire 8-) -- but
I wouldn't want to pay their paper bills.
-- JMM
Wintertree Software
http://www.io.com/~wtsoft
Phil Rhodes
J.McGuire wrote:
>
> Brett D Altschul wrote:
> >
> > In article <skreynDx...@netcom.com>,
> > TSR Online Coordinator <TSR...@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > >The cost of paper has been increasing rapidly in the past few years.
> >
<snip>
> Oh, gods, I'm defending T$R again... <shudder> ...but the paper price
> increases really have been enormous. I'm paying twice what I was 3 years
> ago. It's actually come down a bit lately. Like a lot of software
> publishers, I'm looking at converting almost all my documentation to
<snip>
> -- JMM
> Wintertree Software
> http://www.io.com/~wtsoft
With the cost of paper skyrocketing, a common sense solution would be
to cut the amount of paper - use smaller fonts, narrower borders, etc.
I bought an old 1st edition module (WG4) the other day, and the
difference between it and the newer products is amazing. There is
probably 2-3 times as much 'white space' in the newer products. Granted,
this makes them easier to read, but more expensive to produce.
IMHO, I would prefer a product with more information and less 'space' and
artwork. That's what I pay for.
--
-Phil
(Phillip...@baylor.edu)
Kendall P. Bullen
>If you'd like some inkling of how popular this would likely be, check
>out rec.games.frp.superhero's lengthy discussions of "hero plus" -
>Hero Games is now publishing supplements on diskette in Adobe Acrobat
>format. The move is, to say the least, controversial.
Well, if it's controversial with 'net people, then imagine how non-'net
people will react.
Or, more importantly, people without computers!
Kendall
Eugene Tillery
Phil Rhodes wrote:
> With the cost of paper skyrocketing, a common sense solution would be
> to cut the amount of paper - use smaller fonts, narrower borders, etc.
> I bought an old 1st edition module (WG4) the other day, and the
> difference between it and the newer products is amazing. There is
> probably 2-3 times as much 'white space' in the newer products. Granted,
> this makes them easier to read, but more expensive to produce.
I agree with most of this. But, I have to disagree with you about using
smaller fonts. Can you say 'optically challenged' ? (grin)
> IMHO, I would prefer a product with more information and less 'space' and
> artwork. That's what I pay for.
Hmmm... Put it on cd-rom, open it in the word processor program of your
choice, format it the way you want it (font, borders, spacing, etc.),
then
print only what you need. Works for me :)
Eugene
TSR Online Coordinator
A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
Kendall P. Bullen (ken...@his.com) wrote:
>In article <skreynDx...@netcom.com>, TSR...@aol.com wrote:
>>TSR is considering the idea of books on CD.
>Books as in books you read? Like novels???
Gamebooks, not novels.
--
Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/
"I am an agnostic; I do not pretend to know what many ignorant men are
sure of." - Clarence Darrow
J.McGuire
Phil Rhodes wrote:
> With the cost of paper skyrocketing, a common sense solution would be
> to cut the amount of paper - use smaller fonts, narrower borders, etc.
> I bought an old 1st edition module (WG4) the other day, and the
> difference between it and the newer products is amazing. There is
> probably 2-3 times as much 'white space' in the newer products.
> Granted,
> this makes them easier to read, but more expensive to produce.
>
> IMHO, I would prefer a product with more information and less 'space'
> and artwork. That's what I pay for.
Have you seen a TableMaster manual lately? 8-) My answer to skyrocketing
paper prices has been squint-o-vision.
I agree 100% about the TSR products, though. Look at, say, the old DMG.
They stuffed as much as they possibly could into there -- information,
rules, tables, good stuff. They didn't use fancy fonts, they didn't fill
up otherwise usable space with blue clipart, they kept the borders as
small as practical -- I analyzed the information content (by estimated
word count) of the 1st edition and 2nd edition DMGs -- and I'm sure you
can guess which side of the scale was way light. When you figure it by
words per dollar, T$R's inflation is way ahead of the national average.
That's what *I'm* paying for -- CONTENT, not fluff. I don't care how
pretty the icing is if the cake underneath is nothing but a few crumbs
and
a teaser for the next product, and the next, and the next. And, from
seeing the comments here and elsewhere about glitz-heavy, content-light
products, I think an awful lot of other people feel the same way.
Remember Judges' Guild? They used to print products that weren't quite
as
polished as TSR's, on pretty cheap paper...no 4-color covers, no fancy
art, just content. Lots and lots of content. When $8 would buy you a
so-so
adventure from TSR, it would buy you an entire city, detailed down to
the employees of every last shop, from JG. They didn't go for pretty...
they didn't go for glitzy...they weren't far above mimeographed in the
basement...but they had more bang per buck than anything TSR has ever
done, with the possible exception of Best of The Dragon #1.
[imagine major ranting and flamage here]
Alan Kohler
In article <323CD1...@baylor.edu>, Phillip...@baylor.edu says...
>
>J.McGuire wrote:
>> >
>> > >The cost of paper has been increasing rapidly in the past few years.
>> >
>
><snip>
>
>> Oh, gods, I'm defending T$R again... <shudder> ...but the paper price
>> increases really have been enormous. I'm paying twice what I was 3 years
>> ago. It's actually come down a bit lately. Like a lot of software
>> publishers, I'm looking at converting almost all my documentation to
>
><snip>
>With the cost of paper skyrocketing, a common sense solution would be
>to cut the amount of paper - use smaller fonts, narrower borders, etc.
>I bought an old 1st edition module (WG4) the other day, and the
>difference between it and the newer products is amazing. There is
>probably 2-3 times as much 'white space' in the newer products. Granted,
>this makes them easier to read, but more expensive to produce.
>
>IMHO, I would prefer a product with more information and less 'space' and
>artwork. That's what I pay for.
As an example of this trand, look at Ruins of the undermountain and ruins of
the undermountain II. The first has a thick book with small type and narrow
borders, the second has a thin book with large borders and large type.
Hmmm....
--
Alan D Kohler
hwk...@poky.srv.net
"A man came up to me and said / 'I'd like to change your mind /
by hitting it with a rock', he said, / 'Though I am not unkind' "
They Might Be Giants, "Whistling in the Dark"
Michael New
J.McGuire wrote:
> Oh, gods, I'm defending T$R again... <shudder> ...but the paper price
> increases really have been enormous. I'm paying twice what I was 3 years
> ago. It's actually come down a bit lately. Like a lot of software
> publishers, I'm looking at converting almost all my documentation to
> helpfiles.
But how much of that cost goes into the cost of a book? If paper went
up 2 cents/page (and I imagine that's huge), then a 200 page book would
go up only $4. I think the cost of the paper is a very small percentage
of the cost of the book.
That's my 2 cents worth :-)
Mike
----------------------------- _/ /\/\ /\/ ----------------------------
J. Michael New Micha...@NRC.Ca
Integrated Manufacturing Technologies Institute (613)991-4371
National Research Council of Canada home: (613)230-7783
"Star Trek transporter: the ultimate Cut and Paste"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas Biskup
Tom Miller or Peter Miller (sco...@inforamp.net\peter...@youngmerlin.com) wrote:
> >The cost of paper has been increasing rapidly in
> >the past few years.
> towards books on CD? Like the Core Rules CD-ROM?
> This makes sense, as you can include several core
> books, for a lower price, enticing more people to
> start playing.
And I know longer can take my books with me (if I only have the CD-ROM
version) to read them during long train trips, flights, in bed or
wherever else since I'd need a computer at hand. I can't photocopy
pages for personal use (except if I have a high-quality color
printer), I need batteries for the portable, ... Books on CD-ROM
(especially gaming books) might IMHO be an alternative in 10 years or
so, but today they seem to be pretty useless to me.
> Also, you can put tools on it, simplifying game play, with things
> such as the character creator and map maker (as per the Core Rules
> disc).
My experience has been that drawing a map by hand takes about 1/10th
the time it takes to draw one with some kind of tool. Especially if I
need to show parts of it to the players during the course of the
adventure. Mostly such tools are nice for pre-game preparations
(e.g. area maps) but pretty much slowing down the game when used
during gameplay.
--
Thomas Biskup EMail to: bis...@saranxis.ruhr.de
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Life would be so much easier if we could just look at the source code."
VPenman
JMM,
Good point about Judges Guild. Where can I get their products?
Victor
VPenman
Mike,
Based on what was the standard pricing in the industry when I owned a
retail game store,
If the publisher charged $4 more for a product, the distributor would
charge $6 more for a product and the retailer would charge $10 more for
the product? How does that compare with the price changes you've seen?
One more point, anyone who only passes along the price increase can't
expect to stay in business very long. Businesses need to be profitable.
This means charging more for something than it costs to make it.
Victor
s70...@iplabs.ins.gu.edu.au
>A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
>TSR is considering the idea of books on CD. I can't really say
>more than that, but just know that I talked with management
>at length about the future of role-playing games, and stressed
>the electronic medium's involvement (FYI, I used to work for
>a company that made CD-ROMs - interactive games and ref materials).
>--
>Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator
When you release new rule books or campain world's, why not do a
book only and book 'n' CD bundle deal? A CD database of the text
with a good search engine could work wonders for finding obscure
references.
You could also do a varient of the Id scheme of selling the game engine
and letting people make new levels, by selling the data (with an basic
search engine) and letting people create 'New and Imporved' search
engines.
Craig Askings, Useless Information Coordinator.
J.McGuire
Victor --
JG has been out of business for very many years. However, there's still
quite a stock of their stuff floating around, usually in the hands (and
warehouses) of used/oop game specialists. My usual source is
Gamescience,
in Gulfport, MS -- I'm chasing down info on them via Alta Vista even as
I
type this. OK...their number is 800-476-0600. Crazy Egor's, in western
NY, is another good source. Their phone number is 716-427-2190, their
URL is http://www.miniworld.com/egors.
-- Jean
Wintertree Software
http://www.io.com/~wtsoft
Jim Butler
Phil Rhodes wrote:
> With the cost of paper skyrocketing, a common sense solution would be
> to cut the amount of paper - use smaller fonts, narrower borders, etc.
> I bought an old 1st edition module (WG4) the other day, and the
> difference between it and the newer products is amazing. There is
> probably 2-3 times as much 'white space' in the newer products. Granted,
> this makes them easier to read, but more expensive to produce.
>
> IMHO, I would prefer a product with more information and less 'space' and
> artwork. That's what I pay for.
As long as we stay in 32-page signatures, it's possible for us to reduce
the size of products by pulling out art, cutting down on border and
graphic treatments, etc. The problem, of course, is that we get letters
telling us that the artwork is an integral part of our products, giving
life to the words on the paper. Everyone has their personal preferences.
It's not really feasable for us to drop the size of a product down, say,
eight pages to reduce the cost--the increase in printer costs to handle
such an "odd" size product would destroy any gain seen by saving eight
pages of paper.
Well, now that I've totally altered the subject of the original
thread... :)
Good Gaming!
--
[===========================================================]
[ Jim Butler, Editor/Designer ][ TSR, Inc. ]
[ SPELLFIRE(R)/FR Design Team ][ 201 Sheridan Springs Rd ]
[ Email: tsr...@aol.com ][ Lake Geneva, WI 53147 ]
[===========================================================]
TSR Information Page is located at:
http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/
Robert Baldwin
VPenman wrote:
>
> JMM,
>
> Good point about Judges Guild. Where can I get their products?
>
sets.
RB
"Everyone dies someday; the trick is doing it well."
Tim Breen
Thomas Biskup wrote:
> And I know longer can take my books with me (if I only have the CD-ROM
> version) to read them during long train trips, flights, in bed or
> wherever else since I'd need a computer at hand.
I always take my PowerBook (and my Newton) with me pretty much wherever
I go, so that's not a concern for me. While I don't ride the train, I
fly a lot and I've never been to an airport that didn't have lots of
electrical outlets to keep my PowerBook charged up before my flight. I
have electrical outlets at home, too, so I _could_ read things on my
computer in bed, too, if I wanted to.
I will grant, however, that books on paper are easier on the eye, in
general, than their electronic counterparts, and are more convenient for
certain purposes (particularly sharing at a gaming session and reading
on a l-o-n-g flight).
> I can't photocopy
> pages for personal use (except if I have a high-quality color
> printer), I need batteries for the portable, ... Books on CD-ROM
> (especially gaming books) might IMHO be an alternative in 10 years or
> so, but today they seem to be pretty useless to me.
You're aparently (no flame intended) a "computer person," then. You can
get a good quality color inkjet printer for around $200, and most
"computer people" (the kind of people _likely_ to buy CD-ROMs in the
first place) probably already have one. In fact, since you specify
"quality" and "color," I'd ask how much color laser copies cost in your
neck of the woods. Out here (the Los Angeles area) they're pretty
expensive, ranging from around 89ยข to $1.49 per copy. THAT is expensive.
One thing you can easily do with an electronic version of the books that
you CAN'T do nearly as cheaply or conveniently with the paper version is
to compile all the relevant rules on a give topic (say, spell casting in
combat situations) from all the books into a single document and print
them. Using my computer's search capabilities, I bring all the relevant
materials into one file, do a bit of quick editing, and am able to print
a cohesive section of rules in a few minutes--without leaving home for
Kinko's at 2 a.m. <grin>
While paper books can be more comfortable or convenient in some
situations, electronic books are DEFINITELY more useful for a lot of
other purposes, especially for DMs.
> > Also, you can put tools on it, simplifying game play, with things
> > such as the character creator and map maker (as per the Core Rules
> > disc).
>
> My experience has been that drawing a map by hand takes about 1/10th
> the time it takes to draw one with some kind of tool. Especially if I
> need to show parts of it to the players during the course of the
> adventure. Mostly such tools are nice for pre-game preparations
> (e.g. area maps) but pretty much slowing down the game when used
> during gameplay.
I don't believe these tools are _intended_ for use during game play. A
DM who has to make up an entire wilderness area map at the game table
is, quite simply (IMO) unprepared to play.
Additionally, once maps are created on a computer, they are (or at least
can be, depending on the tool) easy to modify, scroll around in, and
print sections of for the players, while still keeping secret DM
information handy (perhaps on a separate layer of the map, for
instance). I haven't found a mapping program I really like (I have
Campaign Cartographer, but don't like the interface. My wife, the
engineer, says it's just like AutoCAD which she uses all the time.), but
I'm learning Illustrator because of it's ability to zoom in and out of a
scene (up to 1600%) without losing resolution. I can't comment on the
tools included in TSR's CD, because I'm a Macintosh user.
Tim Breen
> Remember Judges' Guild? They used to print products that weren't quite
> as
> polished as TSR's, on pretty cheap paper...no 4-color covers, no fancy
> art, just content. Lots and lots of content. When $8 would buy you a
> so-so
> adventure from TSR, it would buy you an entire city, detailed down to
> the employees of every last shop, from JG. They didn't go for pretty...
> they didn't go for glitzy...they weren't far above mimeographed in the
> basement...but they had more bang per buck than anything TSR has ever
> done, with the possible exception of Best of The Dragon #1.
Yes! Even today, some of my favorite products for role playing are from
Judge's Guild. In fact, I plan on working some into my existing campaign
in the near future... <g>
--
Tom Miller or Peter Miller
In article <323F5B...@rio.com>,
There was no need for that comment. Extremely
petty, and sad to read...
Peter Miller
Kendall P. Bullen
In article <323F42...@compuserve.com>, "J.McGuire"
<7322...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>JG has been out of business for very many years. However, there's still
>quite a stock of their stuff floating around, usually in the hands (and
>warehouses) of used/oop game specialists. My usual source is
>Gamescience,
>in Gulfport, MS -- I'm chasing down info on them via Alta Vista even as
>I type this. OK...their number is 800-476-0600. Crazy Egor's, in western
>NY, is another good source. Their phone number is 716-427-2190, their
>URL is http://www.miniworld.com/egors.
I believe that Crazy Egor sells reprints, not originals. (Not that it'd
matter to me, but some people are weird about these things. :) Thanks for
posting the info., by the way; I've been meaning to look into what he has
from JG. . . .
J.McGuire
Kendall P. Bullen wrote:
> I believe that Crazy Egor sells reprints, not originals. (Not that it'd
> matter to me, but some people are weird about these things. :) Thanks for
> posting the info., by the way; I've been meaning to look into what he has
> from JG. . . .
Not to the best of my knowledge. Gamescience has bought the rights to a
very few
old JG modules (Tegel Manor comes to mind) and is reprinting them in
modified
form, but I don't believe anyone else has done so, including Crazy
Egor's. As
far as I know, Egor's is still strictly a retailer, not a publisher --
they're
doing well to get the catalog out on a regular basis.
I could be wrong about this -- I haven't talked to anyone at Crazy
Egor's in a
year or two, and I barely had time to say 'hi' to Lou Zocchi at GenCon
-- but
as far as I know, with the exception of one or two items from
Gamescience, all
JG stuff on the market is originals.
I wish someone *was* reprinting it! If I had the financing and
distribution, I'd
go after the rights myself. There was an awful lot of good stuff
there.... So
some of the City-State was a bit hokey -- but it was one of the best
deals on
the planet, and (if you can find it) even now, at collectors' prices,
still is.
Kendall P. Bullen
>Gamebooks, not novels.
Oh. :) Well, as long as you keep coming out with printed versions as
well, you're fine; if you come out with versions *only* on CD-ROM, you're
shooting yourself in the foot big time. IMNSHO.
Franko Franicevich
In article <s700515.1...@iplabs.ins.gu.edu.au>,
s70...@iplabs.ins.gu.edu.au wrote:
>
> When you release new rule books or campain world's, why not do a
> book only and book 'n' CD bundle deal? A CD database of the text
> with a good search engine could work wonders for finding obscure
> references.
>
I like this idea.... I prefer a nice, solid manual to read, but it can be
much easier to find certain small pieces of info with a good database...
Go for it, TSR!
--Frankie
--
Franko Franicevich, http://www.tripod.com/~SilverMage
Email: ffr...@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Franko Franicevich
In article <323E45...@compuserve.com>, "J.McGuire"
<7322...@compuserve.com> wrote:
> I agree 100% about the TSR products, though. Look at, say, the old DMG.
> They stuffed as much as they possibly could into there -- information,
> rules, tables, good stuff. They didn't use fancy fonts, they didn't fill
> up otherwise usable space with blue clipart, they kept the borders as
> small as practical -- I analyzed the information content (by estimated
> word count) of the 1st edition and 2nd edition DMGs -- and I'm sure you
> can guess which side of the scale was way light. When you figure it by
> words per dollar, T$R's inflation is way ahead of the national average.
>
> That's what *I'm* paying for -- CONTENT, not fluff. I don't care how
> pretty the icing is if the cake underneath is nothing but a few crumbs
> and a teaser for the next product,
I guess it's all a matter of opinion....
Myself, I loved the way the layout on "Birthright" was done... Lots art,
nice layout and fonts...
And also, you shouldn't just judge the worth of a product by
"wordcount"... Good editing and writing can halve the amount of text in a
product, while keeping it clear and concise.
This is one thing I feel TSR do well...
Brett D Altschul
>It's not really feasable for us to drop the size of a product down, say,
>eight pages to reduce the cost--the increase in printer costs to handle
>such an "odd" size product would destroy any gain seen by saving eight
>pages of paper.
This is true to large extent (although I seroiusly doubt it would destroy any
gain at all). However, this begs the question: why can't you just assign the
writers to produce more text for a thirty-two page product. The cost is the
same or slightly less (less complex color separartions for text than for fancy
graphics) than it is now, and there's more text.
Personally, most TSR products I pick up are filled with graphics I could just
as well do without. I've got my own imagination to provide them.
Kendall P. Bullen
In article <324075...@compuserve.com>, "J.McGuire"
<7322...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>Not to the best of my knowledge. Gamescience has bought the rights to a
>very few
>old JG modules (Tegel Manor comes to mind) and is reprinting them in
>modified
>form, but I don't believe anyone else has done so, including Crazy
>Egor's. As
>far as I know, Egor's is still strictly a retailer, not a publisher --
>they're
>doing well to get the catalog out on a regular basis.
Ah, I got them confused -- sorry! :) Thanks for the correction, it is
Zocchi/Gamescience who reprints some JG stuff.
By the way, your post wraps oddly; you should probably not hit return at
the end of every line -- let your news software (or other people's) wrap
the paragraphs for you . . . otherwise they come out like the above.
Brett D Altschul
In article <323CB2...@compuserve.com>,
J.McGuire <7322...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>Oh, gods, I'm defending T$R again... <shudder> ...but the paper price
>increases really have been enormous. I'm paying twice what I was 3 years
>ago. It's actually come down a bit lately.
Naturally, the price changes are different for different types of paper. I'm
only intimately familiar with the price of newsprint paper, which has risen
dramatically of late. However, it's still quite a distance from doubling in
cost.
Phil Rhodes
Alan Kohler wrote:
> ><snip>
>
> >With the cost of paper skyrocketing, a common sense solution would be
> >to cut the amount of paper - use smaller fonts, narrower borders, etc.
> >I bought an old 1st edition module (WG4) the other day, and the
> >difference between it and the newer products is amazing. There is
> >probably 2-3 times as much 'white space' in the newer products. Granted,
> >this makes them easier to read, but more expensive to produce.
> >
> >IMHO, I would prefer a product with more information and less 'space' and
> >artwork. That's what I pay for.
>
> As an example of this trand, look at Ruins of the undermountain and ruins of
> the undermountain II. The first has a thick book with small type and narrow
> borders, the second has a thin book with large borders and large type.
> Hmmm....
Seems like TSR had a feeling that the second set wasn't quite up to par
with the first and tried to make it 'pretty' so folks wouldn't notice.
I'm not a FR DM, but I have Undermountain I & II; I found RoU I to be
a far more useful product than II.
--
-Phil
(Phillip...@baylor.edu)
Phil Rhodes
Jim Butler wrote:
>
> As long as we stay in 32-page signatures, it's possible for us to reduce
> the size of products by pulling out art, cutting down on border and
> graphic treatments, etc. The problem, of course, is that we get letters
> telling us that the artwork is an integral part of our products, giving
> life to the words on the paper. Everyone has their personal preferences.
>
> eight pages to reduce the cost--the increase in printer costs to handle
> such an "odd" size product would destroy any gain seen by saving eight
> pages of paper.
>
I always wondered why the pages came in multiples of 32. ;)
I guess I wasn't clear in my original response. I don't mind paying
$20 for a product (I just bought _Volo's Guide to All Things Magical_)
IF it has the information, adventure hooks, and ideas that I want.
The illustrations may add a little to the value, but they aren't why I
buy.
I DO mind paying for products that are information light and art heavy.
For example, the WGR series of products had WAY too much space - the
borders were 1.5 inches all around (IIRC) and the border art, while nice
the first time I bought a WGR product, got repetitive in the rest.
<pause>
Just checked my stuff, and it was the FtA set and the later (WGR3+)
products that were like this. Actually, these may be a bad example,
because these products packed quite a bit of info. I just think that
MORE information could have been put into them without the borders.
Main Point: If you have use 'fillers' in a product to get it to a
32 page length, make it information, not art.
Also, the repetition of the artwork in some FR products bothers me.
If the artwork is there, it would be nice to have new art. Examples:
_Heroes Lorebook_ has lots of art from FR7 Hall of Heroes, _Faiths and
Avatars_ reprints art from the FR Adventures hardback. (Aside - the
picture of Drizzt Do'urden in the Lorebook is horrible - he looks like
a fat-faced middle-aged human merchant with a dark tan, not a drow
elven ranger)
Whew!
This is all IMHO, of course. And sorry for the rambling.
> Well, now that I've totally altered the subject of the original
> thread... :)
It was altered long before you posted! :)
--
-Phil
(Phillip...@baylor.edu)
Stuart Turner
If paper costs are getting so large, why aren't TSR going back to the
older-style smaller-text-and-more-columns formats of older releases
(like the D&D Gazetteer products - early ones, like Glantri and Dawn
of the Emporers).
I don't mind the art so much, but when the text per page has
descreased by a third due to increased borders/font size it's a little
annoying. (I know how much it has fallen - I tried typing out a flat
page of text of Ruins of Undermountain and Van Richten's Guide to
Vampires [i.e. the three-column-small-text product vs
two-column-big-border product] and VRGtV had a third less text....)
Stu
TSR Online Coordinator
A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
Stuart Turner (s...@fastlink.com.au) wrote:
>If paper costs are getting so large, why aren't TSR going back to the
>older-style smaller-text-and-more-columns formats of older releases
>(like the D&D Gazetteer products - early ones, like Glantri and Dawn
>of the Emporers).
I predict you will see such changes if paper costs & etc. continue
to be a problem.
--
Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/
"You can quote me: God will destroy America at the hands of the Muslims." -
Louis Farrakhan, quoted by a Tehranian newspaper during his visit to Iran
(source: TIME Magazine, 2/26/96)
Toby Mekelburg
skr...@netcom.com (TSR Online Coordinator) wrote:
>A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
>Stuart Turner (s...@fastlink.com.au) wrote:
>>If paper costs are getting so large, why aren't TSR going back to the
>>older-style smaller-text-and-more-columns formats of older releases
>>(like the D&D Gazetteer products - early ones, like Glantri and Dawn
>>of the Emporers).
>I predict you will see such changes if paper costs & etc. continue
>to be a problem.
I hope so. I'd like to see more small fonts like in F&A.
>Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator
>TSR...@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/
>"You can quote me: God will destroy America at the hands of the Muslims." -
>Louis Farrakhan, quoted by a Tehranian newspaper during his visit to Iran
>(source: TIME Magazine, 2/26/96)
Toby Mekelburg
Teresa Bell
Stuart Turner wrote:
>
> If paper costs are getting so large, why aren't TSR going back to the
> older-style smaller-text-and-more-columns formats of older releases
> (like the D&D Gazetteer products - early ones, like Glantri and Dawn
> of the Emporers).
>
> descreased by a third due to increased borders/font size it's a little
> annoying. (I know how much it has fallen - I tried typing out a flat
> page of text of Ruins of Undermountain and Van Richten's Guide to
> Vampires [i.e. the three-column-small-text product vs
> two-column-big-border product] and VRGtV had a third less text....)
>
> Stu
I suppose it's because they think we are more likely to part with our
money if the books weigh ten pounds....yeah, don't think too hard on it;
you need to have a brain like T$R to fully understand..
TB
--
[ Misconfigured NetKit User (postm...@uws.edu.au) ]
University of Western Sydney, Nepean
P.O. Box 10, Kingswood NSW 2747, Australia
Sea Wasp
> >I predict you will see such changes if paper costs & etc. continue
> >to be a problem.
>
> I hope so. I'd like to see more small fonts like in F&A.
If you like small fonts, you should find the old Arduin Grimoire
series. I knew people who swore you needed a magnifying glass
to read the thing. (you didn't, but it WAS damn small type).
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Jaffo
Does anyone know WHY the paper price is increasing? I'm just
curious...
Jaffo
On Sun, 15 Sep 1996 18:49:36 -0700, "J.McGuire"
Jaffo
On Mon, 16 Sep 1996 23:30:32 -0700, "J.McGuire"
<7322...@compuserve.com> wrote:
:Remember Judges' Guild? They used to print products that weren't quite
:as
:polished as TSR's, on pretty cheap paper...no 4-color covers, no fancy
:art, just content. Lots and lots of content. When $8 would buy you a
:so-so
:adventure from TSR, it would buy you an entire city, detailed down to
:the employees of every last shop, from JG. They didn't go for pretty...
:they didn't go for glitzy...they weren't far above mimeographed in the
:basement...but they had more bang per buck than anything TSR has ever
:done, with the possible exception of Best of The Dragon #1.
:
:[imagine major ranting and flamage here]
I couldn't agree more. I remember JG's The City of Carse, as the
single best roleplaying product I ever saw.
It was ugly, dumpy, and looked like something that came off a manual
typewriter, but it had more cool adventure ideas then any six TSR
products I bought since.
I ran an entire campaign off a few NPC's from that book. I never got
to show the players half the stuff I wanted to, and it was the best
campaign I ever ran.
Whatever happened to the Judge's Guild people, anyway? If any of them
went on to work for somebody else, I'd love to check out their
products.
Anybody else have any fond JG memories?
Jaffo
Jaffo
On Tue, 17 Sep 1996 18:49:14 -0700, Tim Breen <bre...@lightside.com>
wrote:
:> Remember Judges' Guild? They used to print products that weren't quite
:> as
:> polished as TSR's, on pretty cheap paper...no 4-color covers, no fancy
:> art, just content. Lots and lots of content. When $8 would buy you a
:> so-so
:> adventure from TSR, it would buy you an entire city, detailed down to
:> the employees of every last shop, from JG. They didn't go for pretty...
:> they didn't go for glitzy...they weren't far above mimeographed in the
:> basement...but they had more bang per buck than anything TSR has ever
:> done, with the possible exception of Best of The Dragon #1.
:
:Yes! Even today, some of my favorite products for role playing are from
:Judge's Guild. In fact, I plan on working some into my existing campaign
:in the near future... <g>
This is rapidly turning into the Judge's Guild Fan Club thread. <G>
To be fair, let me mention some TSR products that I thought were of
high quality.
The entire Great Kingdom set, particularly Ivid the Undying, with the
intricate politics and detailed NPC motivations was fine work. Real
content from a modern product.
I liked the From the Ashes Greyhawk stuff, although it was a bit
dependent on original boxed sets you can't find anymore.
I've just surrendered to temptation and hype and bought the
Menzoberranzan boxed set.
I'm reasonably happy with the details on the houses and I'm glad to
see they gave complete stats on the major NPC's.
I was HIGHLY disappointed in the maps, however.
TSR can do content, but they get carried away with layout and gimmicks
that boost prices through the roof and make the information harder to
get to.
If I see one more TSR book with an unreadable muddy or glittery
background, I'm going to set it on fire.
Do fancy borders if you must, but please don't strain my eyes with a
goofy background!
Jaffo
J.McGuire
I'd vote for the current font size (maybe a point or two smaller) but
*much* less whitespace. It's not illustrations I have a beef with, it's
_filler_ -- the same bit of clipart on every page, or something that's
obviously been enlarged from a bit of something else, or just plain
_white_space_, like oversized margins and such. It looks like exactly
what it is: a deliberate waste of space to push the page count up, so it
looks like we're getting more for our money.
I'm getting squinty in my own age, and I can barely read my own manuals
any more! Check out the most recent TableMaster manual if you want to
see just how tightly text can be crammed. If I laid it out like TSR has
been doing lately, it would easily be 80 pages or more. (little pages --
half sheet size, 5.5 x 4.25)
Alan Kohler
In article <32484E...@wizvax.net>, sea...@wizvax.net says...
Nothing that a college student who has had to fit a semesters worth of
integrals on a 3x5 card for a calculus final would have any problem with. :)
--
Alan D Kohler
hwk...@poky.srv.net
"A man came up to me and said / 'I'd like to change your mind /
by hitting it with a rock', he said, / 'Though I am not unkind' "
They Might Be Giants, "Whistling in the Dark"
Michael Joseph Metrosky
Jaffo wrote:
>
> Does anyone know WHY the paper price is increasing? I'm just
> curious...
Even though this is not really an D&D related topic......
There has been a number of paper mill closings in Oregan mostly due to
an EPA regulation, according to a Wood and Paper Science major friend of
mine. He only knew because he is going to graduate in the spring and has
been looking for a job.
This regulation was introduced to reduce the number of old growth forest
cuttings. Most of the now defunct paper mills obtained their wood from
old growth forests so they could not stay in business when the
regulation was inacted.
Mike Metrosky
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Beware the Jabberwocky my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!"-Through the Looking Glass
CurtDuval
The City of Carse was NOT a Judges Guild product, but rather was published
by Midkemia Press. It was designed to be used with their own (never
published) rules system. I agree that it was a great product.
Paul Zoski
Jaffo (ja...@onramp.net) wrote:
: Does anyone know WHY the paper price is increasing? I'm just
: curious...
: Jaffo
: On Sun, 15 Sep 1996 18:49:36 -0700, "J.McGuire"
: <7322...@compuserve.com> wrote:
: :Oh, gods, I'm defending T$R again... <shudder> ...but the paper price
: :increases really have been enormous. I'm paying twice what I was 3 years
: :ago.
In fact, no one really knows. The price of paper has increased so dramatically
in such a short period of time the federal government has begun an
investigation. (That is, they began an investigation about 6 -9 months ago).
I have no knowledge of any results obtained through this investigation.
--
Paul J. Zoski e-mail: pj...@ms.uky.edu
718 Patterson Office Tower WWW: http://www.ms.uky.edu/~pjz1
Office Phone: (606)-257-6806 Fax: (606)-257-4078
I have made this letter longer than usual because I
lack the time to make it shorter. --- Blaise Pascal