3.5 shield spikes
Allen Wessels
weapon, what does the common wisdom say about creating a magic shield,
adding the spikes and enchanting the spikes to say, +4 Defending. The
shield design also bestows the Improved Shield Bash feat.
My read of the rules says that you could stack this way, but something
tells me it's an odd intersection that wasn't anticipated.
- Allen
Dragonkat2flame
A +4 Shield is a +4 Shield, adding spikes means it is a weapon, adding
wounding would be an option, but not defending...
Dragonkat
Allen Wessels
<1bc212ac-c00c-4cce...@13g2000yql.googlegroups.com>,
Dragonkat2flame <dragonk...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Feb 23, 8:15 am, Allen Wessels <awess...@EXPUNGEpacbell.net> wrote:
> > Since you can add shield spikes to a shield and enchant them as a
> > weapon, what does the common wisdom say about creating a magic shield,
> > adding the spikes and enchanting the spikes to say, +4 Defending. The
> > shield design also bestows the Improved Shield Bash feat.
> >
> > My read of the rules says that you could stack this way, but something
> > tells me it's an odd intersection that wasn't anticipated.
> A +4 Shield is a +4 Shield, adding spikes means it is a weapon, adding
> wounding would be an option, but not defending...
The shield and spikes are enchanted separately. The Shield bonus does
not affect bashing damage, but in theory, the spike bonus with Defending
could be stacked with the shield bonus, given the Improved Shield Bash
feat.
- Allen
Baird Stafford
<1bc212ac-c00c-4cce...@13g2000yql.googlegroups.com>,
Dragonkat2flame <dragonk...@yahoo.com> wrote:
According to the DMG 3.5, the "Defending" bonus is part of the weapon's
enhancement bonus, not a shield bonus. And the spikes are the weapon,
not the shield proper according to the descriptions.
Baird
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Arandor
> In article
> <1bc212ac-c00c-4cce-9a7b-cb1dd1057...@13g2000yql.googlegroups.com>,
So it comes down to:
1) I take a shield. Let's say I take a heavy steel shield: 20 gp.
Since I want to enchant it, it'll need to be masterwork: +150 gp.
We're at 170 gp.
2) I give this shield spikes: +10 gp. I want to enchant these spikes,
so they'll need to be masterwork: another +300 gp. We're at +310 gp,
on top of the 170 gp we already had: 480 gp.
3) I enchant the *shield* to get an /enhancement/ bonus (to the shield
bonus) of +4. This costs (4 * 4 * 1,000 = ) +16,000 gp. We're at a
whopping (well, depending on your level, of course :) 16,480 gp.
4) I enchant the *spikes* to get an /enhancement/ bonus (to the attack/
damage rolls; overruling the +1 masterwork bonus to attack rolls since
they do not stack) of +3, as well as the "Defending" quality (which is
a +1-equivalent bonus). This costs an additional (4 * 4 * 2,000) =
+32,000 gp, for a grand total of 48,480 gp.
Now, for that 48,480 gp, I have a +4 large steel shield (giving a
total +6 shield bonus; 2 innate, +4 enhancement) with +3 defending
shield spikes (with a +3 to attack and damage rolls).
Since I have Improved Shield Bash, I can attack with my shield (to be
precise: with the shield spikes), and still retain the shield's bonus
to AC. If I "sacrifice" up to +3 of these spikes' enhancement bonus to
attack/damage, I get the same bonus to AC, stacking with all others.
So I could get a +9 total to AC from the shield, and still attack with
the spikes (which would have no enhancement bonus "left", but would
still count as magical... and do pathetic damage for someone who can
afford a shield costing nearly 50,000 gp.
Really, what's the problem? So he gets a little extra AC
"cheap" (cough, not really). He still needs to get Improved Shield
Bash somehow, plus if he does not want to impair his attack rolls
needlessly, also Two-Weapon Fighting (which requires Dex 15+ or being
a Ranger, and thus probably limits your armor bonus - most likely, no
Full Plate for you!).
Plus, sword-and-board warrior types aren't exactly the top of the line
anyway. Let him have his fun.
Cheers,
Arandor
Allen Wessels
<dbb1fafe-3fbd-4290...@h5g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
Arandor <ara...@gmail.com> wrote:
Yeah, my design is more expensive because the group is higher level.
The DM is balking at the idea that the spikes could be used in a
defending mode with the shield.
- Allen
tussock
> Since you can add shield spikes to a shield and enchant them as a
> weapon, what does the common wisdom say about creating a magic shield,
> adding the spikes and enchanting the spikes to say, +4 Defending. The
> shield design also bestows the Improved Shield Bash feat.
You'd still need to bash with the shield and take the associated
penalties to gain the Defender bonus. It's also really fricken expensive,
compared to every other +4 AC in the game, especially adding -2 to hit.
> My read of the rules says that you could stack this way, but something
> tells me it's an odd intersection that wasn't anticipated.
You can do the same trick with a flying shield or dancing weapon.
--
tussock
U'm iuel p jyx yn chycyipwlaf kyd blvlr ebyg ghpw kyd'rl sdbbp slw.
DougL
He can do better. Upping the shield to +5 costs only 9,000 GP,
dropping the spikes to +2 saves 10,000 GP. Same AC boost from the
shield 1,000 GP cheaper at the cost of not being able to use the full
+3 to attack if you ever actually want to use the shield to attack.
ALWAYS figure the marginal cost of +1 to AC by all methods prior to
buying an AC booster. There are many different ways to improve AC, the
best price isn't always the one you'd think.
Does this still work if the shield is animated?
DougL
DougL
Whoops! I forgot that those aren't +3 to +2 spikes, they're +4
equivalent to +3 equivalent. Saves 14,000 GP, a net savings of 5,000
GP.
Dragonkat2flame
>
> - Show quoted text -
Even if you house-rule defending Spikes, It seems to be a cheap way to
get a potential +10 Shield, opening the same door for spikey Armor!
Doesn't add up, unless you allow +10 Shields & +10 Plate Armor
Dragonkat
tussock
> Yeah, my design is more expensive because the group is higher level. The
> DM is balking at the idea that the spikes could be used in a defending
> mode with the shield.
Oh, is that all? They're arrayed for hooking, catching, and trapping
your opponent's weapons, of course, and they're magically enchanted (with
an /enhancement/ bonus) to do it super well. 8]
Maybe they pull you opponent off balance? Meh, it's not like a
Defender waraxe makes any sense either.
--
tussock
Loren Pechtel
I wouldn't allow it as it's basically a cheaper way of doing something
with a standard price. Magic doesn't permit such shortcuts.
Arandor
This is not a house-rule, this is the way it works.
Get a +5 shield (giving you a +7 shield bonus to AC, if it's a heavy
shield). Put +5 defending spikes on it. Get Improved Shield Bash and
Two-Weapon Fighting.
For a -2 penalty to attack rolls (because of Two-Weapon Fighting; Dex
15+ required) you get an additional +5 bonus to AC which stacks with
all others. Completely by the book. This "only" costs 72,310 gp (the
cost of +6 defending spikes) extra.
He could also have taken Combat Expertise (-2 attack rolls, +2 AC;
getting slightly less AC but saving 72,000+ gp), for example; really,
what's the problem?
--
Cheers,
Arandor
Arandor
wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 05:15:13 -0800, Allen Wessels
>
Sure it does. This is the way it works, and it's not even really
cheap, either. Sub-par, actually. If he wants to, though, let him.
--
Cheers,
Arandor
DougL
Yep, if I have a +4 shield and +4 armor and want to add to AC I can do
any of the following:
1) Increase one item to +5, costs 9,000 GP, presumably that's the
"standard price" you can't shortcut your way arround.
2) Take a feat and buy spikes for 8,310 GP, allowing you to take a -2
to attack for a +1 to AC (wait, this is better than option (1) exactly
how?)
3) Buy a ring for 2,000 GP.
4) Buy an amulet for 2,000 GP.
5) Buy gloves for 4,000 GP (which also add to reflex save and dex
based skills and dex based attacks).
6) Buy an Ioun stone or some other relatively obscure item for 10,000+
GP.
7) Take combat expertise and take a -1 to attack.
8) Get reduced in size.
9) Get polymorphed to a form with high natural armor.
Clearly there's no rule that method (1) must be the cheapest option.
It's actually one of the more expensive options.
But I'd say the armor spikes are the LEAST attractive way to improve
AC. By the time you have so much gear/money/feats that the defending
armor spiked shield looks like a good idea you could ALSO animate the
shield and simply carry a defending weapon in the off hand for only
24,000 GP more. (And yes, by the time defending spikes look like a
really good idea, 24,000 GP more deserves to be called "only".)
Arandor
> Yep, if I have a +4 shield and +4 armor and want to add to AC I can do
> any of the following:
>
> 1) Increase one item to +5, costs 9,000 GP, presumably that's the
> "standard price" you can't shortcut your way arround.
>
> 2) Take a feat and buy spikes for 8,310 GP, allowing you to take a -2
> to attack for a +1 to AC (wait, this is better than option (1) exactly
> how?)
Well... erhm... you *do* get to do an extra attack with the shield
spikes! Woo-hoo! :) Too bad you can't Power Attack for extra damage
(it'll be considered a light weapon). Oh, and you need *two* feats:
Improved Shield Bash (or you'll lose the shield bonus to AC when
attacking) as well as Two-Weapon Fighting (or you'll have so much
penalty to attack rolls you might as well go All-Out-Defensive).
So yeah, it kinda sucks as an option. But if he wants to, more power
to him.
> 3) Buy a ring for 2,000 GP.
You... you... cheater! And this helps your touch AC too! You must use
method 1! This is too cheap, you blashpemer you!
> 4) Buy an amulet for 2,000 GP.
*gasp* Na... natural armor? What are you, a monster? ;)
> 5) Buy gloves for 4,000 GP (which also add to reflex save and dex
> based skills and dex based attacks).
Well, to be perfectly honest... if you already have Dex 15+ (because
of the Two-Weapon Fighting), this'll push it to Dex 17+, where you
*might* run into the max. Dex to AC for your armor. Note, I said
might. Even mithral full plate still allows a +3 bonus after all.
Hmm, spiky mithral full plate...
> 6) Buy an Ioun stone or some other relatively obscure item for 10,000+
> GP.
But those are, like, obscure. Plus they look silly. Plus, they're more
expensive than option 1, so now you're shooting yourself in the foot.
> 7) Take combat expertise and take a -1 to attack.
Great option. At those levels, it's also kind of possible that you
could take a -2 penalty to attack (you know, what you would do with
Two-Weapon Fighting *anyway*) and get a +2 bonus to AC. And dodge
stacks with everything else, too. But won't work against invisible
opponents.
> 8) Get reduced in size.
>
> 9) Get polymorphed to a form with high natural armor.
But now you're using magic, and that's just... wrong. (Oh, wait.)
> Clearly there's no rule that method (1) must be the cheapest option.
> It's actually one of the more expensive options.
So you pick what is the best option at any given time. You've been
doing this from level 1 if you were smart.
That is not "cutting corners" or "not seeing how magic works". That is
*exactly* how it works. And, in fact, the way D&D 3.x assumes you're
working.
> But I'd say the armor spikes are the LEAST attractive way to improve
> AC. By the time you have so much gear/money/feats that the defending
> armor spiked shield looks like a good idea you could ALSO animate the
> shield and simply carry a defending weapon in the off hand for only
> 24,000 GP more. (And yes, by the time defending spikes look like a
> really good idea, 24,000 GP more deserves to be called "only".)
*nods*
--
Cheers,
Arandor
Allen Wessels
<cfe0ca2c-cebb-4f74...@o11g2000yql.googlegroups.com>,
Arandor <ara...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well... erhm... you *do* get to do an extra attack with the shield
> spikes! Woo-hoo! :) Too bad you can't Power Attack for extra damage
> (it'll be considered a light weapon). Oh, and you need *two* feats:
> Improved Shield Bash (or you'll lose the shield bonus to AC when
> attacking) as well as Two-Weapon Fighting (or you'll have so much
> penalty to attack rolls you might as well go All-Out-Defensive).
>
> So yeah, it kinda sucks as an option. But if he wants to, more power
> to him.
My design also includes the shield Bashing magical property per the DMG:
deals damage as if it were a weapon 2 sizes larger, acts as a +1 weapon
when used to bash
I'll go ahead and throw in the design, but understand it's intended to
meet some other class and character goal issues.
It is not intended to be the optimal use of resources for the effect.
Note, OC is on the silver standard, so read gold when you see silver.
You raise a good question. WRT Power Attack, is it going to be a light
or heavy weapon?
__________________________________
The Aegis of L'or
+5 Heavy Glamered Adamantite Spiked Shield of Bashing
(Bashing allows the shield to be used as a +1 weapon)
Equipped with +4 Defending Undead Bane Adamantine Shield Spikes
Provides the wielder with the feat Improved Shield Bash (retain AC while
using the shield to bash)
Functions as a light weapon for calculating two weapon fighting hit
modifiers
The Aegis in default mode provides a +7 shield bonus to armor and bashes
for 1d8+5 points of damage, 1d8+2d6+7 vs undead. Some or all of the
spikes' bonus to hit can be transferred to a defense bonus that stacks
with all others, to a maximum of +11 on AC, 1d8+1 damage, 1d8+2d6+3
damage to undead.
The Aegis is shaped in the rough outline of a charging horse and
designed for use on foot as well as horsed. The outer band is engraved
with a pictorial history of L'ors journey from Kahlom and rise to his
rule of the Isle of Storms. The center is carved and engraved with
L'or's coat of arms, the spikes rising strategically from appropriate
parts of the coat of arms.
Upon command, the Aegis transforms into an heraldic tabard, illustrating
the engraving above in vivid color and detail in fine embroidered
fabric.
Strong abjuration, transmutation, CL18, Craft Magic Arms and Armor,
shield, levitate, bull's strength, disguise self; Price 147,130 silver,
4904xp
Costs:
+5000, +3000 for adamantine shield and weapon
+600 masterwork (300 each)
+30 base cost for heavy shield and spikes
+36,000 for +6 shield (+5, +1 for Bashing feature)
+72,000 for +6 weapon (+4 weapon, +1 defending, +1 undead bane)
+15,000 for Improved Shield Bash feat
+10,000 for acts as light weapon
+2750x2 for Glamered (somewhat elaborated)
Arandor
wrote:
> In article
> My design also includes the shield Bashing magical property per the DMG:
>
> deals damage as if it were a weapon 2 sizes larger, acts as a +1 weapon
> when used to bash
Careful there:
http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/magicItemsAW.html#armor
"Bashing: A shield with this special ability is designed to perform a
shield bash. A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of
two size categories larger (a Medium light shield thus deals 1d6
points of damage and a Medium heavy shield deals 1d8 points of
damage). The shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash. (Only light
and heavy shields can have this ability.)"
Nowhere is it mentioned that a shield with this property lets you
retain the shield bonus to AC.
The Improved Shield Bash feat, however, *does*:
http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/featsAll.html#improved-shield-bash
"Benefit: When you perform a shield bash, you may still apply the
shield’s shield bonus to your AC.
Normal: Without this feat, a character who performs a shield bash
loses the shield’s shield bonus to AC until his or her next turn."
Just adding the bashing property to a shield, therefore, isn't gonna
cut it. Also note that if you attack with a shield (as well as with a
normal weapon in your normal, i.e. not your "off" hand), you get stiff
penalties to attack rolls unless you take Two-Weapon Fighting as well.
I see you figured some sort of cost into the shield's design, though.
> I'll go ahead and throw in the design, but understand it's intended to
> meet some other class and character goal issues.
>
> You raise a good question. WRT Power Attack, is it going to be a light
> or heavy weapon?
The bashing property raises the *damage* the shield does: "A bashing
shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of two size categories
larger." But, that does not change anything else.
http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/armor.html
"Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield,
using it as an off-hand weapon. See Table: Weapons for the damage
dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial
bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls,
treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as
a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next action (usually until
the next round). An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the
effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be
made into a magic weapon in its own right."
So, the penalties to attack rolls are even worse: it's a *one-handed*
weapon, not a *light* weapon. Which means -4, not -2, penalties. Ouch
ouch ouch.
But, again, I see you worked that into your design.
> The Aegis of L'or
>
> +5 Heavy Glamered Adamantite Spiked Shield of Bashing
> (Bashing allows the shield to be used as a +1 weapon)
> Equipped with +4 Defending Undead Bane Adamantine Shield Spikes
One question for you to think about: do you attack with the *shield*
(using the bashing property) or are you attacking with the shield's
*spikes*?
(Answer: all the spikes really do is turn your damage from bludgeoning
to piercing. Nothing else. Whether you enchant the *shield* to be
defending/undead bane, or the *spikes*, doesn't matter at all.)
So you do not have a +1 weapon as well as a +4 weapon. Nor do their
powers combined summon Captain America. Uhm, I mean, make it a +5
weapon.
> Provides the wielder with the feat Improved Shield Bash (retain AC while
> using the shield to bash)
> Functions as a light weapon for calculating two weapon fighting hit
> modifiers
>
> The Aegis in default mode provides a +7 shield bonus to armor and bashes
I hope you mean 'to AC' and not 'to armor'. :)
> for 1d8+5 points of damage, 1d8+2d6+7 vs undead.
It bashes for 1d8+4 (it's a +4 weapon). The +1 from bashing is
completely made irrelevant. Really, all the spikes do is change the
damage type. Nothing else. Also mention the damage type (piercing).
> spikes' bonus to hit can be transferred to a defense bonus that stacks
> with all others, to a maximum of +11 on AC, 1d8+1 damage, 1d8+2d6+3
> damage to undead.
You can not have your cake and eat it, too. The shield has a +4
enhancement bonus to attack rolls (from the spikes). If you transfer
all of that to AC, it's not that the +1 bashing property all of a
sudden 'pops up'.
> +15,000 for Improved Shield Bash feat
> +10,000 for acts as light weapon
How do you figure these costs? If anything, I'd make these as +1-
equivalent bonuses, not flat costs.
--
Cheers,
Arandor
DougL
> +5000, +3000 for adamantine shield and weapon
> +600 masterwork (300 each)
Just because 600 GP is REALLY important at these levels, I'll mention
that IIRC adamantine cost includes masterwork.
DougL
Allen Wessels
<15aacaae-e34a-41c8...@o36g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
Arandor <ara...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Careful there:
>
> http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior
> sage/magicItemsAW.html#armor
>
> "Bashing: A shield with this special ability is designed to perform a
> shield bash. A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of
> two size categories larger (a Medium light shield thus deals 1d6
> points of damage and a Medium heavy shield deals 1d8 points of
> damage). The shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash. (Only light
> and heavy shields can have this ability.)"
>
> Nowhere is it mentioned that a shield with this property lets you
> retain the shield bonus to AC.
>
> The Improved Shield Bash feat, however, *does*:
>
> http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior
> sage/featsAll.html#improved-shield-bash
>
> "Benefit: When you perform a shield bash, you may still apply the
> shield¹s shield bonus to your AC.
>
> Normal: Without this feat, a character who performs a shield bash
> loses the shield¹s shield bonus to AC until his or her next turn."
>
> Just adding the bashing property to a shield, therefore, isn't gonna
> cut it. Also note that if you attack with a shield (as well as with a
> normal weapon in your normal, i.e. not your "off" hand), you get stiff
> penalties to attack rolls unless you take Two-Weapon Fighting as well.
>
> I see you figured some sort of cost into the shield's design, though.
Yeah, I didn't think through bashing though. It really is just a +1
shield-as-weapon weapon enchant.
> > I'll go ahead and throw in the design, but understand it's intended to
> > meet some other class and character goal issues.
> >
> > You raise a good question. WRT Power Attack, is it going to be a light
> > or heavy weapon?
>
> The bashing property raises the *damage* the shield does: "A bashing
> shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of two size categories
> larger." But, that does not change anything else.
>
> http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior sage/armor.html
>
> "Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield,
> using it as an off-hand weapon. See Table: Weapons for the damage
> dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial
> bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls,
> treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as
> a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next action (usually until
> the next round). An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the
> effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be
> made into a magic weapon in its own right."
>
> So, the penalties to attack rolls are even worse: it's a *one-handed*
> weapon, not a *light* weapon. Which means -4, not -2, penalties. Ouch
> ouch ouch.
>
> But, again, I see you worked that into your design.
>
> > The Aegis of L'or
> >
> > +5 Heavy Glamered Adamantite Spiked Shield of Bashing
> > (Bashing allows the shield to be used as a +1 weapon)
> > Equipped with +4 Defending Undead Bane Adamantine Shield Spikes
>
> One question for you to think about: do you attack with the *shield*
> (using the bashing property) or are you attacking with the shield's
> *spikes*?
Yep.
> (Answer: all the spikes really do is turn your damage from bludgeoning
> to piercing. Nothing else. Whether you enchant the *shield* to be
> defending/undead bane, or the *spikes*, doesn't matter at all.)
>
> So you do not have a +1 weapon as well as a +4 weapon. Nor do their
> powers combined summon Captain America. Uhm, I mean, make it a +5
> weapon.
Right, point taken.
>
> > Provides the wielder with the feat Improved Shield Bash (retain AC while
> > using the shield to bash)
> > Functions as a light weapon for calculating two weapon fighting hit
> > modifiers
> >
> > The Aegis in default mode provides a +7 shield bonus to armor and bashes
>
> I hope you mean 'to AC' and not 'to armor'. :)
Right. This was a first draft to start hammering out potential issues
with the GM.
> > for 1d8+5 points of damage, 1d8+2d6+7 vs undead.
>
> It bashes for 1d8+4 (it's a +4 weapon). The +1 from bashing is
> completely made irrelevant. Really, all the spikes do is change the
> damage type. Nothing else. Also mention the damage type (piercing).
Yep, that's important.
> You can not have your cake and eat it, too. The shield has a +4
> enhancement bonus to attack rolls (from the spikes). If you transfer
> all of that to AC, it's not that the +1 bashing property all of a
> sudden 'pops up'.
It's essentially another shield "mode".
> > +15,000 for Improved Shield Bash feat
> > +10,000 for acts as light weapon
>
> How do you figure these costs? If anything, I'd make these as +1-
> equivalent bonuses, not flat costs.
Pulled out of the air on the basis of feat costs. That and I like items
with several lesser features and if you do the + equivalent thing it
gets too expensive to have multifunction higher level items.
Since the DM is the final word, I line itemed those as costs mostly as
placeholders.
- Allen
Arandor
Oh, yep, true. Plus, even if it didn't (which it does) the 300 gp
would only be for the masterwork *spikes*. A masterwork *weapon* is
+300 gp - unless it's made of, say, adamantine. A masterwork *armor* /
*shield* is +150 gp.
But yes, you just saved us a grand total of 600 gp. I think a lot of
people are now going to complain just how cheesy this is, and that
magic does not permit such shortcuts. :)
--
Cheers,
Arandor