Question: Uncanny Dodge vs. Sneak Attack
Fiddlehead Fern
The campaign I'm playing in right now is Rogue (and Assassin) heavy, and
the group is involved in a struggle with a rival assassins guild, so we
find ourselves fighting lots of roguey types. The problem that's vexing us
now is the issue of Uncanny Dodge versus Sneak Attack.
My basic question is this: does Uncanny Dodge always trump Sneak Attack?
Example 1: An undetected Rogue jumps out of the shadows and attacks a
target. My understanding is this: if the target has Uncanny Dodge it is NOT
a Sneak Attack no matter what the level of the attacker.
There was some discussion that it is still a Sneak Attack, but the Uncanny
Dodge just allows the defender to keep the DEX bonus to their AC, but I do
not think that is consistent with the rules for Sneak Attack. As I read it,
as long as a character gets their DEX bonus, they are immune to surprise
Sneak Attacks.
Example 2: A rogue flanks a target and attacks. If the target has Improved
Uncanny Dodge, then it is NOT a sneak attack unless the Rogue has 4 more
levels than the target. Assuming the attacking Rogue is not high enough
level, the attacker does not even get the +2 flanking bonus, since Improved
Uncanny Dodge states outright that you cannot be flanked, yes?
Would it be unreasonable to attach the 4 level exception to regular Uncanny
Dodge? It seems a little odd that a 4th level Rogue or a 2nd level
Barbarian is immune to the scariest part of surprise attacks from the most
powerful Rogues and Assassins.
ff
Bradd W. Szonye
> The campaign I'm playing in right now is Rogue (and Assassin) heavy, and
> the group is involved in a struggle with a rival assassins guild, so we
> find ourselves fighting lots of roguey types. The problem that's vexing us
> now is the issue of Uncanny Dodge versus Sneak Attack.
>
> My basic question is this: does Uncanny Dodge always trump Sneak Attack?
With one exception, yes.
> Example 1: An undetected Rogue jumps out of the shadows and attacks a
> target. My understanding is this: if the target has Uncanny Dodge it is NOT
> a Sneak Attack no matter what the level of the attacker.
Correct.
> There was some discussion that it is still a Sneak Attack, but the
> Uncanny Dodge just allows the defender to keep the DEX bonus to their
> AC, but I do not think that is consistent with the rules for Sneak
> Attack.
Incorrect.
> Example 2: A rogue flanks a target and attacks. If the target has
> Improved Uncanny Dodge, then it is NOT a sneak attack unless the Rogue
> has 4 more levels than the target. Assuming the attacking Rogue is not
> high enough level, the attacker does not even get the +2 flanking
> bonus, since Improved Uncanny Dodge states outright that you cannot be
> flanked, yes?
Correct.
> Would it be unreasonable to attach the 4 level exception to regular
> Uncanny Dodge?
Yes. The enemy rogue does not actually cause the flat-footed state, so
there's no way for him to override the rogue's ability.
> It seems a little odd that a 4th level Rogue or a 2nd level Barbarian
> is immune to the scariest part of surprise attacks from the most
> powerful Rogues and Assassins.
That's one of their major class features. Don't nerf it.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
Michael Scott Brown
news:ffern-ya02408000...@news.verizon.net...
> My basic question is this: does Uncanny Dodge always trump Sneak Attack?
Yup. If you've got uncanny dodge, you can't be sneak attacked for being
surprised - ever. You can be sneak attacked from flanking if your opponent
is more savvy than you (ie; higher level rogue, etc.), but that's about it.
It's late and I can't remember whether it will do for feints.
> Would it be unreasonable to attach the 4 level exception to regular
Uncanny
> Dodge? It seems a little odd that a 4th level Rogue or a 2nd level
> Barbarian is immune to the scariest part of surprise attacks from the most
> powerful Rogues and Assassins.
Class feature. Sacred cow. Bad idea. Rogues have hyper reflexes (high
Reflex save, Evasion, trap defenses, uncanny dodge).
-Michael
Rupert Boleyn
<mister...@earthlink.net> carved upon a tablet of ether:
> "Fiddlehead Fern" <ff...@shrubbery.org> wrote in message
> news:ffern-ya02408000...@news.verizon.net...
> > My basic question is this: does Uncanny Dodge always trump Sneak Attack?
>
> Yup. If you've got uncanny dodge, you can't be sneak attacked for being
> surprised - ever. You can be sneak attacked from flanking if your opponent
> is more savvy than you (ie; higher level rogue, etc.), but that's about it.
> It's late and I can't remember whether it will do for feints.
It works vs being flat-footed and vs invisible attackers. A feint
still costs you your Dex bonus, with all the bad things that that can
entail.
--
Rupert Boleyn <rbo...@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
Phil Pettifer
> Uncanny
> > Dodge? It seems a little odd that a 4th level Rogue or a 2nd level
> > Barbarian is immune to the scariest part of surprise attacks from the most
> > powerful Rogues and Assassins.
>
> Class feature. Sacred cow. Bad idea. Rogues have hyper reflexes (high
> Reflex save, Evasion, trap defenses, uncanny dodge).
I think creating a feat ('Quicker Sneak Attack' ... or something???)
that allows the Rogues sneak attacks to overcome an opponents Uncanny
Dodge is not unreasonable. Maybe add the '4 levels higher' limitation
to it and a prerequisite of Improved Initiative if it proves too
powerful. Make sure you give the feat to some of the NPCs as well
though!
In fact if you search around I wouldn't be surprised if something
similar has already been done.
Marshall
"Michael Scott Brown" <mister...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:sT1Yb.5610$WW3....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> > Would it be unreasonable to attach the 4 level exception to regular
> Uncanny
> > Dodge? It seems a little odd that a 4th level Rogue or a 2nd level
> > Barbarian is immune to the scariest part of surprise attacks from the
most
> > powerful Rogues and Assassins.
>
> Class feature. Sacred cow. Bad idea. Rogues have hyper reflexes (high
> Reflex save, Evasion, trap defenses, uncanny dodge).
>
All the more reason to allow the 4 level higher ROG(BRB/ASN) to get the
attack off without DEX to AC.
Their Class Feature.
Their Sacred Cow
Their (Better)Hyper Reflexes.