Player quit 4e over rarity
Justisaur
other players is quitting 4e. It's partially real life getting in the
way, but I think they are pissed at the rarity changes, since the
party wizard can't make anything except common items, which are
basically only healing potions and straight + items.
Personally I think the change is working o.k., but the ability to make
magic items with clear rules was one of the big things people really
liked going into 3e. I think it was a mistake to take it as far as
they did.
- Justisaur
DougL
I'm mildly pissed that they haven't actually IMPLEMENTED their new
rule.
There are almost no rare items, there are many items that clearly
SHOULD be common that aren't.
Has your DM tried to follow the guideline that roughly half should be
common and 1/8th uncommon and 3/8ths rare.
AFAICT it's outright impossible to do so with items I've seen. There
simply aren't enough rares, and there aren't enough useful commons.
The Magic Ki focus (flat enhancement bonus), uncommon!
Armor of resistance (no powers, just a single modest property),
uncommon.
Both should clearly be common based on the published guidelines, but
for some reason WotC, while they errata most things, hasn't errataed
the list of common items. And there is no list of rare items at all.
It would be a short list if there were one.
This is silly.
It strikes me as a fine rule, but the implementation sucks.
DougL
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> Just got word after I couldn't make it to our game Sunday one of the
> other players is quitting 4e. It's partially real life getting in the
> way, but I think they are pissed at the rarity changes, since the
> party wizard can't make anything except common items, which are
> basically only healing potions and straight + items.
>
There should never be rules which make it impossible (or even too hard)
for a PC to do something which is obviously being done by an NPC.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Justisaur
> On Jan 31, 10:35 am, Justisaur <justis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Just got word after I couldn't make it to our game Sunday one of the
> > other players is quitting 4e. It's partially real life getting in the
> > way, but I think they are pissed at the rarity changes, since the
> > party wizard can't make anything except common items, which are
> > basically only healing potions and straight + items.
>
> > Personally I think the change is working o.k., but the ability to make
> > magic items with clear rules was one of the big things people really
> > liked going into 3e. I think it was a mistake to take it as far as
> > they did.
>
> I'm mildly pissed that they haven't actually IMPLEMENTED their new
> rule.
>
> There are almost no rare items, there are many items that clearly
> SHOULD be common that aren't.
>
> Has your DM tried to follow the guideline that roughly half should be
> common and 1/8th uncommon and 3/8ths rare.
I think most of the items we've been getting are uncommon, as he's
running published modules - and there was no thought that should be
the way it is when the modules were published.
Looking at the list of the last treasure division I see 4 common
items, plus 8 common potions. We got 16 uncommon items, and 6
uncommon potions. I think this was over the course of 3 or 4 levels.
> AFAICT it's outright impossible to do so with items I've seen. There
> simply aren't enough rares, and there aren't enough useful commons.
Yes, absolutely impossible without making your own. What I've read
there are about 5 rares. 4 of them don't seem any better than
uncommon, and there are level ranges where there are no rares close to
them.
I don't think this has anything to do with the frustration though.
> The Magic Ki focus (flat enhancement bonus), uncommon!
> Armor of resistance (no powers, just a single modest property),
> uncommon.
>
> Both should clearly be common based on the published guidelines, but
> for some reason WotC, while they errata most things, hasn't errataed
> the list of common items. And there is no list of rare items at all.
> It would be a short list if there were one.
> This is silly.
>
> It strikes me as a fine rule, but the implementation sucks.
Yeah, it feels very half-assed, poorly thought out, and tacked on
(which is is).
I think the intent (and how our DM feels) is that it is supposed to
make finding magic more important and have some impact other than
selling the lot of it and making you own stuff tailored perfectly to
you. As a DM I get it, but as a player as implemented it stinks.
- Justisaur
WDS
> On 1/31/11 11:35 AM, Justisaur wrote:
>> Just got word after I couldn't make it to our game Sunday one of the
>> other players is quitting 4e. It's partially real life getting in the
>> way, but I think they are pissed at the rarity changes, since the
>> party wizard can't make anything except common items, which are
>> basically only healing potions and straight + items.
>>
>
> There should never be rules which make it impossible (or even too hard)
> for a PC to do something which is obviously being done by an NPC.
And vice-versa.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
So desu.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
With the caveat that I have no trouble with denying stuff to GROUPS of
NPCs (i.e., the "Mook VS Named" difference).
Justisaur
<seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> On 1/31/11 11:35 AM, Justisaur wrote:
>
> > Just got word after I couldn't make it to our game Sunday one of the
> > other players is quitting 4e. It's partially real life getting in the
> > way, but I think they are pissed at the rarity changes, since the
> > party wizard can't make anything except common items, which are
> > basically only healing potions and straight + items.
>
> There should never be rules which make it impossible (or even too hard)
> for a PC to do something which is obviously being done by an NPC.
>
You can still make all items, but they've made it like the old AD&D
way, you have to ask the DM how you make it, find a recipe for it,
find all the difficult fantastic ingredients (displacer beast hide for
a cloak of displacement or the like) which is for the DM to decide -
in my understanding, which basically casts the DM as a dick unless
he's extremely lenient on it no matter what he does.. I don't have
the essentials book it's from at this point, but I plan on picking it
up so I can see the full rule myself.
A big part of the problem lies in the fact that the system assumed
that you would have appropriate magic items for your level of your
choice which I think a lot of people think means appropriate to what
you want to focus on, instead of just plain + whatever. I think it's
partially an effort to reign in overpowered characters, but I really
haven't seen anything overpowered in 4e, I think they think it's a
bigger issue than it is perhaps due to the online community.
I'm not entirely sure about making it too hard, after all it takes a
lifetime of training and work to make a masterwork katana, then it
takes as much as 6 months and several different specialists and
apprentices. I don't think it should be entirely out of reach, but
requiring that much time would easily make it out of reach in the
campaign we've been playing as the PCs haven't had more than a week
free time in 14 levels.
I can see some campaigns where it could be out of reach by default,
Greek/Roman Pantheon for instance, almost all magic items were made by
Hephaestus. The requirement could be that you have to be Hephaestus,
or at least a god of Smithing, or making things.
- Justisaur
Rast
>
> On Jan 31, 10:35 am, Justisaur <justis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I think they are pissed at the rarity changes, since the
> > party wizard can't make anything except common items, which are
> > basically only healing potions and straight + items.
> There are almost no rare items, there are many items that clearly
> SHOULD be common that aren't.
>
> Has your DM tried to follow the guideline that roughly half should be
> common and 1/8th uncommon and 3/8ths rare.
>
> AFAICT it's outright impossible to do so with items I've seen. There
> simply aren't enough rares, and there aren't enough useful commons.
Not that I was a 4E fan to begin with, but the MMO/CCG terminology is a
huge turn-off for me. I don't want to play pen-n-paper WoW.
--
"It's only possible to betray where loyalty is due," said Sandy.
"Well, wasn't it due to Miss Brodie?"
"Only up to a point," said Sandy.
- Muriel Spark
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> On Jan 31, 9:02 am, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>> On 1/31/11 11:35 AM, Justisaur wrote:
>>
>>> Just got word after I couldn't make it to our game Sunday one of the
>>> other players is quitting 4e. It's partially real life getting in the
>>> way, but I think they are pissed at the rarity changes, since the
>>> party wizard can't make anything except common items, which are
>>> basically only healing potions and straight + items.
>>
>> There should never be rules which make it impossible (or even too hard)
>> for a PC to do something which is obviously being done by an NPC.
>>
>
> You can still make all items, but they've made it like the old AD&D
> way, you have to ask the DM how you make it,
In other words, it's all NPCs unless you've got a GM who's both
reasonable AND willing to take the time and effort.
dr...@bin.sh
> Not that I was a 4E fan to begin with, but the MMO/CCG terminology is a
there, i fixed it for you.
--
.--===-+---===--.
|> |\__|___/\---|= dr...@bin.sh (CARRIER LOST) <http://www.bin.sh/>
|| || ()= | | <| --------------------------------------------------------
|> |/~~|~~~\/---|= The Right of Way Belongs to the Biggest Guns
`--===-+---===--'
dr...@bin.sh
> but I think they are pissed at the rarity changes, since the
> party wizard can't make anything except common items, which are
> basically only healing potions and straight + items.
i really like 4e, and even some of essentials, but i can't even
conceive of submitting my game to that. a +1 puppy-bane direblade
should be rare because it sucks, not because it says so on the card.
--
n_n n_n dr...@bin.sh (CARRIER LOST) <http://www.bin.sh/>
|"|n_n_n|"| ---------------------------------------------------------------
| | " " | | "Hit Hard, Hit Fast, Hit Often."
|_|_[T]_|_| <http://donjon.bin.sh/d20/power/>
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> Alien mind control rays made Rast<ra...@yahoo.com> write:
>> Not that I was a 4E fan to begin with, but the MMO/CCG terminology is a
>> huge turn-off for me. DAMN KIDS THESE DAYS.
>
> there, i fixed it for you.
>
Young punk.
Seebs
> Just got word after I couldn't make it to our game Sunday one of the
> other players is quitting 4e. It's partially real life getting in the
> way, but I think they are pissed at the rarity changes, since the
> party wizard can't make anything except common items, which are
> basically only healing potions and straight + items.
What rarity changes?
-s
--
Copyright 2010, all wrongs reversed. Peter Seebach / usenet...@seebs.net
http://www.seebs.net/log/ <-- lawsuits, religion, and funny pictures
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology) <-- get educated!
I am not speaking for my employer, although they do rent some of my opinions.
Seebs
> Not that I was a 4E fan to begin with, but the MMO/CCG terminology is a
> huge turn-off for me. I don't want to play pen-n-paper WoW.
I actually don't mind it at all, because it turns out these provide a good
vocabulary for kinds of things I was already trying to do.
Parvati V
> Not that I was a 4E fan to begin with, but the MMO/CCG terminology is
> a huge turn-off for me. I don't want to play pen-n-paper WoW.
I remember outraged cries when 4E came out at the idea that the player
could have guaranteed magic items of their choice by purchasing or
making them so easily. Not only that, but the book suggested that the DM
let them make wish lists and then pick from those, oh the drudgery!
Having said that, I'm not fond at all of this terminology either, and of
the rule itself for that matter. It brings back some further limitations
on what you can acquire (not that there weren't any in place: only being
able to buy or make items of your level or lower means, for instance,
that for most of the game you can use the +N weapon/armour the DM chose
for you, or get one +(N-1) for a good chunk of your money).
But mostly, it makes treasure handling unnecessarily more complicated.
--
Parvati V
tussock
> DougL wrote:
>> Justisaur wrote:
>>> I think they are pissed at the rarity changes, since the party
>>> wizard can't make anything except common items, which are
>>> basically only healing potions and straight + items.
>
>> There are almost no rare items, there are many items that clearly
>> SHOULD be common that aren't.
>>
>> Has your DM tried to follow the guideline that roughly half should be
>> common and 1/8th uncommon and 3/8ths rare.
>>
>> AFAICT it's outright impossible to do so with items I've seen. There
>> simply aren't enough rares, and there aren't enough useful commons.
>
> Not that I was a 4E fan to begin with, but the MMO/CCG terminology is a
> huge turn-off for me. I don't want to play pen-n-paper WoW.
Isn't that the same terminology they used in 2nd edition, in 1989, a
little before the time of MMOs and CCGs? But yes, that ancient RPG
terminology is probably a real turn off for the MMO crowd.
Wait, Uncommon? Hmm, no, 2e was Common, Rare, and Exotic, at least
for the components.
--
tussock
Justisaur
> On 2011-01-31, Justisaur <justis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Just got word after I couldn't make it to our game Sunday one of the
> > other players is quitting 4e. It's partially real life getting in the
> > way, but I think they are pissed at the rarity changes, since the
> > party wizard can't make anything except common items, which are
> > basically only healing potions and straight + items.
>
> What rarity changes?
Originally you could buy whatever you can afford, and make anything of
your level assuming again you can afford to do so and had the ritual.
Anything you find you can sell for 1/5 of what you got it for. Seemed
to be working o.k. but characters ending up with the most powerful
items of course.
They've added 3 commonalities: common, uncommon, and rare.
Common items you can make or buy as you used to, and still sell for
1/5th price. They are a fairly small group. Only healing potions and
the higher level equivalents such as vitality in the potions category,
and only items with straight enhancement bonuses like magic sword +3,
magic amulet +4, magic armor +1.
Uncommon items cannot be bought and can only be made with 2e style DM
permission, finding or researching a recipe, and then finding the
fantastic ingredients which the DM has to pull out his ass - again
such as say a displacer beast hide for a cloak of displacement.
Uncommon items also sell for 1/2 of their listed price, although if
you can't buy them, I'm not sure what the point of that is. Pretty
much everything has been errata-ed to be in this category with the
exception of the common items above (compendium doesn't show rarities
at this point, but character builder does). Iron Armbands of Power,
flaming swords, all alchemical items (except perhaps sunrod because
they haven't given it a rarity). If you've been playing 4e, probably
all your magic items with the exception of healing potions are
uncommon.
Rare items also cannot be bought, I'm not sure what the rules are for
making them, but presumably they are much more difficult if at all
possible to be made. I have seen one list of all known rare items,
and there were only 5, including Holy Sword, making it actually
smaller than the number of artifacts. Rare items also sell for full
price if you want to sell them. From what I've seen, what they have
chosen as rare items are actually no better than your average
uncommon, and were made rare just to make them more 'special'.
The DM is supposed to give out about 1/2 common items, close to 1/2
uncommon items, and 1 rare per tier per character (IIRC, not
absolutely sure on that last bit, also patently impossible as there
aren't enough rare items to do that.)
They also removed the per character daily use limit. So you can now
use any number of different items daily powers. The limit per item
is still there, so if you have say a mantle of faith which lets you
heal a healing surge without using a healing surge once per day, you
can still only use that item once per day.
One caveat to not being able to make uncommon or rare items is that
you can still upgrade them. So if you happen to have say that mantle
of faith +1, once your ritualist is a level equal to or above the
level of a mantle of faith +2 and you have enough money he can upgrade
it to a mantle of faith +2.
One unconsidered side effect I've seen already of this is that
uncommon items being worth more take up more of the treasure share in
our group, so picking them is actually more expensive and therefore
less economically sound than it was when they sold for 1/5 the price,
as it also makes upgrading something you like more more attractive
since you can sell the thing you just found for considerably more.
The other effect is that they've completely invalidated taking Alchemy
as a feat or ritual substitution because you can't make any alchemical
items (possible exception of the sunrod).
- Justisaur
El Rico D
shuffle, and draw at the beginning of your turn, and can play once per
turn.
I can't figure out how to untap my cleric, though.
Jim Davies
>Uncommon items cannot be bought and can only be made with 2e style DM
>permission, finding or researching a recipe, and then finding the
>fantastic ingredients which the DM has to pull out his ass - again
>such as say a displacer beast hide for a cloak of displacement.
>[... this includes] all alchemical items (except perhaps sunrod because
>they haven't given it a rarity).
>The other effect is that they've completely invalidated taking Alchemy
>as a feat or ritual substitution because you can't make any alchemical
>items (possible exception of the sunrod).
Assuming you have a sane DM, he just makes the alchemical ingredients
fairly easy to get hold of. Bat guano, eye of newt, ash from a fire
lit by the dawn sun's rays, that sort of thing.
--
Jim or Sarah Davies, but probably Jim
D&D and Star Fleet Battles stuff on http://www.aaargh.org
There is no God. But there is pudding!
Ashran Firebrand
Personnaly I'm not using the rarity rule, I see no need for it.
Justisaur
> Do not like a rule? Do not use it... It's your game, after all.
> Personnaly I'm not using the rarity rule, I see no need for it.
True, but what about when the DM likes a rule, and none of the players
do?
I'm not sure I would use rarity if I were DMing. If I did I'd
probably modify what's rare and what's not extensively. It'd probably
be just as easy to say 'these items don't exist' as it would to make
it next to impossible to buy or make them. I suppose it's easier for
a DM to hide behind making them next to impossible as it's in the
rules.
- Justisaur
Hadsil
> Do not like a rule? Do not use it... It's your game, after all.
> Personnaly I'm not using the rarity rule, I see no need for it.
Over at the WOTC Forums, this is known as the Oberoni Fallacy. Just
because a DM can Rule 0 something doesn't mean that something is not
broken.
:/
Gerald Katz
DougL
Yep, if judging whether a rule or rule set is broken, you have to
judge the rule or the rule set. "That's broken, houserule it." is a
fine statement, while "That's not broken because you can houserule it"
removes all meaning from the discussion and is a null statement. You
can houserule anything, so that you can houserule a change to rule X
establishes nothing about rule X.
AFAICT item Rarity isn't a broken rule, it's a broken implementation.
The rule is fine, it imposes some limits on what PCs can make or buy
(IIRC there's nothing stopping you from buying uncommon items, it's
rares that are stated to more or less never be for sale), while it
gives them additional freedom to sell some gear for a higher price and
to not have to track item daily power uses (which were one of the
harder rules to justify on versimilitude grounds).
By the published rule any item with only simple properties and
numberic bonuses is common, so you can still always get the basic
bonuses your level N character should have. "character defining" items
are rare, everything else is uncommon.
But there are MANY items that should be common that aren't. Magic Ki
focus for example, so everyone BUT the monk gets his basic enhancement
bonus. The +1 move item for heavy armor is uncommon while the lower
level one for light armor is common (because obviously we need to nerf
moving in armor more than it already is).
Rares are even worse, to all intents and purposes there aren't any.
And you can't even usefully houserule the implementation of rares as a
stopgap till they publish some more, because there are too few rare
items to have a decent idea what they think a rare should look-like
and the rules guidelines don't provide any specific details beyond
"more powerful" and "character defining".
Basically rare (aka more powerful) items, which should be one of the
significant carrots to make this rule power and usefulness neutral are
totally missing. It's like if the Bard's spell list page were blank in
3.5 and there were maybe 5 spells total where the spell description
included that bards could cast them. That wouldn't change any of the
basic class information or the idea, but the broken implementation of
the spell-list would mean the class was broken in actual use.
DougL
Adderworks
The GM should bend the rules if he desires. If the rarity list offends
the group, it should be on the change list. It is what keeps players
and makes for good groups.
Although, I could see something like the RPGA being an issue, but...
*shrug* Outside of the official clubs and games, the official
material should never outweigh the sense common to the group.
Justisaur
> On Jan 31, 9:02 am, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>
> <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> > On 1/31/11 11:35 AM, Justisaur wrote:
>
> > > Just got word after I couldn't make it to our game Sunday one of the
> > > other players is quitting 4e. It's partially real life getting in the
> > > way, but I think they are pissed at the rarity changes, since the
> > > party wizard can't make anything except common items, which are
> > > basically only healing potions and straight + items.
>
> > There should never be rules which make it impossible (or even too hard)
> > for a PC to do something which is obviously being done by an NPC.
>
> You can still make all items, but they've made it like the old AD&D
> way, you have to ask the DM how you make it, find a recipe for it,
> find all the difficult fantastic ingredients (displacer beast hide for
> a cloak of displacement or the like) which is for the DM to decide -
> in my understanding, which basically casts the DM as a dick unless
> he's extremely lenient on it no matter what he does.. I don't have
> the essentials book it's from at this point, but I plan on picking it
> up so I can see the full rule myself.
>
I was wrong here. I went to the bookstore and looked it up in the
Rules Compendium, I decided not to buy it after reading this section
though. It basically says that you can't make uncommon items, and you
can't buy them, the secrets to making them have been lost to time.
There are no provisions mentioned for DMs to even come up with ways
they could be made, so it's not like the old 2e way at all, it's just
not possible, without the DM rule 0ing it.
- Justisaur
- Justisaur
DougL
The dragon article that introduced the rules stated that uncommon
required rare ingredents or special knowledge or whatever.
The published rule doesn't include that, but that still leaves it open
for the GM to come up with something (GM comes up with something is
inherently rule 0 anyway).
I dislike the fluff that the manufacturing methods are "forgotten",
how does anything significant get forgotten in D&D land, you can go
ASK the gods, and for that matter some of the individual people who
made those rare items may still be available in various god's domains.
So I'm ignoring all that and going with "rare ingredients or special
knowledge", just like the dragon article said.
DougL
Hadsil
> I was wrong here. I went to the bookstore and looked it up in the
> Rules Compendium, I decided not to buy it after reading this section
> though. It basically says that you can't make uncommon items, and you
> can't buy them, the secrets to making them have been lost to time.
> There are no provisions mentioned for DMs to even come up with ways
> they could be made, so it's not like the old 2e way at all, it's just
> not possible, without the DM rule 0ing it.
>
> - Justisaur
Now I can add this to my reasons for not liking 4E. It is not a crime
against humanity for a player character to create a magic item,
regardless of its rarity. I accept artifacts as the exception and
really powerful but not quite artifacts to be very, very expensive
relegated to the very high levels near the end of campaign, but not an
item that deals 3d6 fire damage in a 10ft burst once a day. (I just
made that up for example purposes.)
Gerald Katz
DougL
Going a bit further based on trying to pick items for my players to
find last night.
Holy water is "uncommon". But Create Holy Water is a level 1 ritual,
which does nothing but create holy water and has not been hit with any
specific errata.
And specific overrides general. So there is a specific case of an item
that is uncommon but which the players can make. I'm claiming that
needing a separate ritual is thus BtB "special knowledge" required to
make an uncommon item and that uncommon items can be created.
Essencials itself doesn't have player item creation AFAIK and I don't
think the Compendium has any rules for item creation. So it claiming
that "you can't make these items" isn't actually all that relevant
IMAO.
Not that it really matters, the Common/Uncommon/Rare division really
desperately needs to have some more rules support and additional
common and rare items prior to being ready for prime time.
DougL
Justisaur
It's firmly in the DM whim category, so you can do whatever you want
there.
I was thinking about the Alchemical items being affected by this, and
thought there might be a loophole, because they are "Alchemical" and
not "Magic", and Rarity is specifically under Magic Items. I also
found that the Living campaigns allows all Alchemical items to be
created too.
> Essencials itself doesn't have player item creation AFAIK and I don't
> think the Compendium has any rules for item creation. So it claiming
> that "you can't make these items" isn't actually all that relevant
> IMAO.
>
> Not that it really matters, the Common/Uncommon/Rare division really
> desperately needs to have some more rules support and additional
> common and rare items prior to being ready for prime time.
I'll agree with that. I just think it's too bad they did print it as
an official rule in the Rules Compendium before it was ready.
- Justisaur
D.J.
<lamper...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I dislike the fluff that the manufacturing methods are "forgotten",
>how does anything significant get forgotten in D&D land, you can go
>ASK the gods, and for that matter some of the individual people who
>made those rare items may still be available in various god's domains.
>So I'm ignoring all that and going with "rare ingredients or special
>knowledge", just like the dragon article said.
Yes, rather seems to be a 'manufactured out of thin air' excuse.
Unlike sf lost science you can ask the game deities how to do
something.
JimP.
JimP.
--
Brushing aside the thorns so I can see the stars.
http://www.linuxgazette.net/ Linux Gazette
http://www.drivein-jim.net/ Drive-In movie theaters
http://crestar.drivein-jim.net/ Dec, 2010
tussock
> DougL wrote:
>> I dislike the fluff that the manufacturing methods are "forgotten",
>> how does anything significant get forgotten in D&D land, you can go
>> ASK the gods, and for that matter some of the individual people who
>> made those rare items may still be available in various god's domains.
>> So I'm ignoring all that and going with "rare ingredients or special
>> knowledge", just like the dragon article said.
>
> Yes, rather seems to be a 'manufactured out of thin air' excuse.
> Unlike sf lost science you can ask the game deities how to do
> something.
I rather like Gaming Den take on it, that PCs inhabit a world that
has recently been destroyed by mortal aquisition of powerful magic. So
of course everything's lost and everyone's secretive about it, because
you know what happened last time people did what the PCs are doing, with
the flying castles and armies of undead dragons.
Nuclear weapons, only it's about the aquisition of magical know-how.
Those in the know do not want to share, and even the gods live in fear
that powerful mortals will once again gain great knowledge (such is how
the gods are replaced).
But yes, it's an adventure game, so the PCs can get whatever they
want as long as it involves an adventure.
--
tussock