Controlling the Reincarnate spell

[Tetsubo]

Reincarnate is a 4th level Druid spell that brings a character back as
some form of humanoid chosen from a random list. What level would a
version be that allowed the caster to chose the specific race of the new
body? I think 6th or 7th would be a good power level. Any thoughts?
--
Tetsubo
Deviant Art: http://ironstaff.deviantart.com/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/tetsubo57

[Ubiquitous]

In article <jeu4ve$762$1...@dont-email.me>, tet...@comcast.net wrote:

> Reincarnate is a 4th level Druid spell that brings a character back as
> some form of humanoid chosen from a random list. What level would a
> version be that allowed the caster to chose the specific race of the new
> body? I think 6th or 7th would be a good power level. Any thoughts?

Didn't there used to be such a spell in 3rd edition (True Reincarnation)?

--
"If Barack Obama isn't careful, he will become the Jimmy Carter of the
21st century."

[Joanna Rowland Stuart]

In article <jeur8m$5tc$1...@dont-email.me>, web...@polaris.net (Ubiquitous)
wrote:

> Didn't there used to be such a spell in 3rd edition (True
> Reincarnation)?

You're thinking of /True Resurrection/ - a Clerical spell.

Cheers
JOanna

[Joanna Rowland Stuart]

In article <jeu4ve$762$1...@dont-email.me>, tet...@comcast.net (Tetsubo)
wrote:

> What level would a
> version be that allowed the caster to chose the specific race of
> the new body?

As per RAW, a /Wish/ or /Miracle/ can restore a reincarnated character to
his original form (and by implication can enable the race of new form to
be changed to anything the caster desires).

So any variant of the /Reincarnate/ that enables the new form to be
chosen would have to be the same level as Miracle or Wish, i.e. 9th,
unless the caster is able to sway a friendly deity...

Cheers
JOanna

[Justisaur]

On Jan 15, 1:06 am, Tetsubo <tets...@comcast.net> wrote:
>         Reincarnate is a 4th level Druid spell that brings a character back as
> some form of humanoid chosen from a random list. What level would a
> version be that allowed the caster to chose the specific race of the new
> body? I think 6th or 7th would be a good power level. Any thoughts?

That's too powerful. I wouldn't allow that as anything but an epic
spell or godly power.

- Justisaur

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

No, I wouldn't agree. The Wish or Miracle allows you to specify
*EVERYTHING* about the new body -- appearance, species, physical
abilities, mental capabilities, etc., etc., down to making you an exact
duplicate of your prior self.

A version of Reincarnate that merely allowed you to "aim the gun" at a
species level instead of "species, sex, physical characteristics, etc."
should be significantly lower. Level 7 would be as high as I'd put that.


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

Wha? That's hardly an epic level change. Wish will do it without even
starting from "I already know how to move the spirit into *a* body",
which Reincarnate gives you. Wish is a huge all-purpose do-everything
spell, and it's not Epic Level. Any spell doing a narrow-purpose
something Wish can do should be lower level than Wish, which can do all
that AND ANYTHING ELSE. So just by that logic alone, it should be 8th
level at most. Overall, I don't see anything about the idea that would
make it better than 7th.

[Loren Pechtel]

On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 04:06:54 -0500, Tetsubo <tet...@comcast.net>
wrote:

> Reincarnate is a 4th level Druid spell that brings a character back as
>some form of humanoid chosen from a random list. What level would a
>version be that allowed the caster to chose the specific race of the new
>body? I think 6th or 7th would be a good power level. Any thoughts?

At least 8th--it's pretty close to true resurrection.

[Loren Pechtel]

Why? Just because the only official means of doing it requires a 9th
level spell doesn't mean that there is no easier way to do it.

I do agree it probably is 9th but that's because of True Resurrection,
not because of Wish.

[Jim Davies]

On the grave of Tetsubo <tet...@comcast.net> is inscribed:

> Reincarnate is a 4th level Druid spell that brings a character back as
>some form of humanoid chosen from a random list. What level would a
>version be that allowed the caster to chose the specific race of the new
>body? I think 6th or 7th would be a good power level. Any thoughts?

If you could specify the same race as before, I think 5th or 6th would
be fair. After all, it's then little different from Raise Dead. Being
able to choose *any* race does sound like it's open to abuse from
powergaming the stat changes.

This is 3.5 or PF:
>A reincarnated creature recalls the majority of its former life and form. It retains
>any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base
>attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged.
>Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body.
>First eliminate the subject's racial adjustments (since it is no longer of his
>previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining
>ability scores

So you can start as, say, an elf (in PF, -2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Dex) and
get reincarnated as a bugbear (+4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con). And in the
process you gain a net +4 Str, +4 Con. And so on. Add feats and other
mental abilities to suit.

--
Jim or Sarah Davies, but probably Jim

D&D and Star Fleet Battles stuff on http://www.aaargh.org

There is no God. But there is pudding!

[Rick Pikul]

Actually, that something can be done by using a Wish spell implies that a
special purpose spell granting the same effect would be no more than 8th
level. Since we're talking about something that would likely be a class
specific spell, that lowers the max level to 7th.

But that's for a spell which takes someone who has been reincarnated and
gives him back his 'real' body. What we want is a spell that allows you
to be reincarnated with a choice of species, (and possibly sex), but not
to your original body.

I would be tempted to say 7th: The same level as Resurrection, with the
species switch trading off for not being the 'same person' along with the
larger penalty in 3.P, (2 -ve levels rather than 1). However we do have
the issue of species switch abuses, (start as a race with good mental/poor
physical, selective reincarnate to something with good physical).

To deal with the abuses you might have to restrict the choice of race,
perhaps disallowing any race which would increase attribute bonuses by
more than 2 or 4, (I'd say relative to the race you started as), or
imposing similar penalties.

--
Chakat Firepaw - Inventor & Scientist (Mad)

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

Why? By the time you reach the level where you're casting 7th level
spells, the minor tweaks of species are hardly even noticeable, unless
you expand the table to allow you to reincarnate as an ancient huge
Dragon or something.

You wanna limit it, hey, here's a fun one -- your reincarnation depends
on your alignment and how well you've adhered to it. Lawful good and
stuck with it well? You get to reincarnate as any one of several
super-powerful creatures of good. Been a bad guy? You're reincarnated as
a beetle. The wheel of Karma, baby!

[tussock]

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> Justisaur wrote:

>> Tetsubo wrote:
>>> Reincarnate is a 4th level Druid spell that brings a character
>>> back as some form of humanoid chosen from a random list. What level
>>> would a version be that allowed the caster to chose the specific race of
>>> the new body? I think 6th or 7th would be a good power level. Any
>>> thoughts?
>>
>> That's too powerful. I wouldn't allow that as anything but an epic
>> spell or godly power.
>
> Wha? That's hardly an epic level change.

It is in 3e. You get all the free and stacking physical stat mods,
natural armour, no level loss, .... OK, it's also clearly worse than
/Shapechange/, and more like a /Polymorph/ that can't be dispelled with a
free /True Resurrection/ thrown in.

To take the random element away from /Reincarnate/ is to spoil its
flavour entirely.

> Wish will do it without even starting from "I already know how to move
> the spirit into *a* body", which Reincarnate gives you. Wish is a huge
> all-purpose do-everything spell, and it's not Epic Level. Any spell doing
> a narrow-purpose something Wish can do should be lower level than Wish,
> which can do all that AND ANYTHING ELSE.

Technically, /Wish/ can't replicate other 9th level spells, nor 8th
level Cleric spells, or anything the DM considers to be of similar power. So
stopping time (even breifly) is out, no unlimited mass save-or-die, not even
a /Meteor Swarm/, and certainly not a /True Resurrection/.

> So just by that logic alone, it should be 8th level at most. Overall, I
> don't see anything about the idea that would make it better than 7th.

7th seems about right, but it needs some serious downside attached to
make it less attractive than /True Resurrection/. Level loss or altered
mental stats would take most of the cheese factors away.

6th if the downside is big enough.

--
tussock

[StephenStrong]

Wouldn't Polymorph Any Object fit under that sort of criteria?

Or is it just that noone actually knows how PAO actually works?

- Stephen

[Loren Pechtel]

On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 23:20:39 -0500, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

> You wanna limit it, hey, here's a fun one -- your reincarnation depends
>on your alignment and how well you've adhered to it. Lawful good and
>stuck with it well? You get to reincarnate as any one of several
>super-powerful creatures of good. Been a bad guy? You're reincarnated as
>a beetle. The wheel of Karma, baby!

That's going a little far but I think you might have something there.

How about a Buddhist faith in the game:

At any time after you are dead you can choose to be reincarnated.
(It's not automatic as you may prefer to be called back by other
means.)

Been a good guy (lawful/chaotic doesn't matter) and you'll come back
as a race that's similar to yours but with an LA one higher. It is
*NOT* random but neither is it player's choice--the DM chooses what he
considers most appropriate. If you were exhalted then you come back
with an LA two higher.

Been a bad guy and you'll come back as a race with a LA one lower.

[Rast]

Jim Davies wrote...

> So you can start as, say, an elf (in PF, -2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Dex) and
> get reincarnated as a bugbear (+4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con). And in the
> process you gain a net +4 Str, +4 Con. And so on. Add feats and other
> mental abilities to suit.

Despite what the rules say, IMO the mental stats should also receive
racial adjustments. So then our net would be +4 Str, +4 Con, -2 Int,
-2 Cha.

Furthermore, bugbears are +1 LA for a reason, and though I'm not aware
of an official ruling, I would apply that LA to the newly reincarnated
character.

[tussock]

StephenStrong wrote:
> Justisaur wrote:

>> Tetsubo wrote:
>>> Reincarnate is a 4th level Druid spell that brings a character
>>> back as some form of humanoid chosen from a random list. What level
>>> would a version be that allowed the caster to chose the specific race
>>> of the new body? I think 6th or 7th would be a good power level. Any
>>> thoughts?
>>
>> That's too powerful. I wouldn't allow that as anything but an epic
>> spell or godly power.
>>

> Wouldn't Polymorph Any Object fit under that sort of criteria?

PAO changes your mental stats, can be dispelled, and can have limited
duration anyway, it's clearly not as handy as non-random Reincarnate.

> Or is it just that noone actually knows how PAO actually works?

Corpse to Humanoid looks like 3 hours, as "Sheep to Wool Coat" without
the lower intelligence bonus, or closer size than "Marionette to Human".
Plus, level 8 spell, totally not as good as Tetsubo's idea.

--
tussock

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

You're going into a new body of X species. You have no idea, nor
control, over what the physical characteristics of that body are. Random
Rolls, baby, rolled by the GM, not the player! That oughtta be enough of
a downside.

True Resurrection gives you back YOUR body, with ALL your perks. Going
to a new, random, NON-PC Guaranteed body? Almost certainly worse.

[Tetsubo]

On 1/16/2012 10:16 AM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 1/15/12 9:59 PM, tussock wrote:
>> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>
>>> So just by that logic alone, it should be 8th level at most. Overall, I
>>> don't see anything about the idea that would make it better than 7th.
>>
>> 7th seems about right, but it needs some serious downside attached to
>> make it less attractive than /True Resurrection/. Level loss or altered
>> mental stats would take most of the cheese factors away.
>
> You're going into a new body of X species. You have no idea, nor
> control, over what the physical characteristics of that body are. Random
> Rolls, baby, rolled by the GM, not the player! That oughtta be enough of
> a downside.
>
> True Resurrection gives you back YOUR body, with ALL your perks. Going
> to a new, random, NON-PC Guaranteed body? Almost certainly worse.
>
>

I wouldn't make my worst enemy roll random stats. Let alone a player in
my game.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

You're all worthless and weak! That's the REAL way to play D&D! That's
how we ALL did it in the old days!

Also note that I said the *GM* does the rolling, not the player. Thus
the GM can choose to be merciful... or not.

[Rick Pikul]

On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 23:20:39 -0500, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:

> On 1/15/12 8:01 PM, Rick Pikul wrote:
>> I would be tempted to say 7th: The same level as Resurrection, with the
>> species switch trading off for not being the 'same person' along with the
>> larger penalty in 3.P, (2 -ve levels rather than 1). However we do have
>> the issue of species switch abuses,
>
> Why? By the time you reach the level where you're casting 7th level
> spells, the minor tweaks of species are hardly even noticeable, unless
> you expand the table to allow you to reincarnate as an ancient huge
> Dragon or something.

It's less when you're casting 7th level spells and more when you can have
a 7th level spell cast.

As has been mentioned, a race swap could get you a pair of +4 stat
increases. That's the equivalent of an 80,000GP item, (not counting its
immunity to being dispelled), out of a scroll that costs less than a
quarter of that. Even when you're casting it yourself, that's likely a
bit much.


Now, I would be more than willing to have a note allowing the DM to waive
to limitation if he feels that there isn't an issue in that particular
case. That or simply making note of the potential abuse and strongly
suggesting that the DM either say no or impose other consequences should
he feel that the player is abusing the spell.

[David Lamb]

On 17/01/2012 2:02 AM, Rick Pikul wrote:
> As has been mentioned, a race swap could get you a pair of +4 stat
> increases. That's the equivalent of an 80,000GP item,

Those stat bonuses ought to come with an LA option, which to most people
would be a deal-breaker anyway.

[Harold Groot]

>Jim or Sarah Davies, but probably Jim

Powergaming abuse? I'm not really seeing it likely to happen.
Limiting it to the list of races in REINCARNATE would be a given in my
campaign. If you want to be able to specify races NOT listed there,
that's an entirely new area of negotiating spell levels.

Then there's both level loss and LA to take into account. The
REINCARNATE spell causes you to lose a level (or hit die) just like
RAISE DEAD does, that's a big hit right there. In a campaign,
powergamers will not take things over by repeatedly losing a level.
On top of that, a bugbear is LA +1 (at least, it is in 3.5E). So
you've already lost a level, and then to actually get a level higher
than you started, you need the XP to not only replace the lost level
but also to compensate for the LA, and THEN enough XP to actually go
up a level. They'd have to be at a lower level for a LONG time - not
something most powergamers want to do.

I suppose if they present a character rebuilt in this manner to a new
DM, they might depend on the DM not doing a good audit of the
character. But that can happen with any "trade XP for some advantage"
situation. The DM has to audit characters for reasonableness. If the
powergamer's PC used to be a 12th level character and traded 5 levels
for various stat boosts via REINCARNATE and then claimed that his
character was suitable for a game with other 7th level characters, the
unreasonableness should be pretty obvious (not just in stats, but
because he would have the magic items of a 12th level PC). Or if he
added those 5 levels back in and tried to say the PC was suitable for
the 12th level game - the unreasonableness still ought to be apparent.
It should be about as obvious as someone just deciding on their own
"I'll add a +4 bonus to whatever I roll for every stat."

For myself, I wouldn't have a problem with a LIMITED WISH spell (cast
ahead of time) to allow the REINCARNATION to bring about a specific
result. The use of a single spell (WISH) to get the original body
type back involves ripping the soul out of the body it currently
inhabits as well as simulating the REINCARNATION spell itself - with
the additional new ability of specifying the result of the
REINCARNATION. It would seem easier to just put an already-separated
soul into a specific type of new body (one the REINCARNATE spell
already has the power to produce). So an additional 7th level arcane
spell on top of the 4th level divine spell is the way I'd judge the
game to be "already set up" to produce that particular result.

For someone to want to research an "IMPROVED REINCARNATION" druid
spell that does it all in one spell - I'd probably allow it as a
single 7th level druid spell. There's a lot of spell research to do,
and there's no mixing of arcane and divine disciplines so it's more
"efficient" than needing both a 4th level druid spell and a 7th level
wizard/sorcerer spell. (A LIMITED WISH can only simulate a 5th level
druid spell, so I'd actually consider the "base effect" already in the
game to be equivalent to a 4th level divine spell and a linked 5th
level divine spell.)

If someone wanted to research a 5th level spell "DIRECT A SEPARATE
REINCARNATION SPELL" I'd probably allow that too. Since "charging"
for any LA bumps prevents any super-optimizing plans, and since the
whole thing would be used rather sparingly (given reasonable play by
the players, the death rate is pretty low in my campaigns) I just
don't see it as being a problem.

[Justisaur]

On Jan 17, 10:11 am, ques...@infionline.net (Harold Groot) wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 19:36:07 +0000, Jim Davies

> Powergaming abuse?  I'm not really seeing it likely to happen.
> Limiting it to the list of races in REINCARNATE would be a given in my
> campaign.  If you want to be able to specify races NOT listed there,
> that's an entirely new area of negotiating spell levels.
>

Reincarnate lists "Other."

- Justisaur

[Ken Arromdee]

In article <4F13B02A...@example.net>,

StephenStrong <str...@example.net> wrote:
>Wouldn't Polymorph Any Object fit under that sort of criteria?

Polymorph any object is dispellable. I would assume that if you reincarnate
someone as a badger and turn them into a human with this spell, the first
Dispel Magic turns them into a badger again.
--
Ken Arromdee / arromdee_AT_rahul.net / http://www.rahul.net/arromdee

Obi-wan Kenobi: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes."
Yoda: "Do or do not. There is no 'try'."

[David Lamb]

But surely "other" doesn't mean "player's free choice"! It doesn't say
so in the D20 Hypertext SRD, but I imagine "Other" really means either
"DM's choice" or "requires negotiation."

[tussock]

Harold Groot wrote:

> Jim Davies wrote:

>> So you can start as, say, an elf (in PF, -2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Dex) and
>> get reincarnated as a bugbear (+4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con). And in the
>> process you gain a net +4 Str, +4 Con. And so on. Add feats and other
>> mental abilities to suit.

> Powergaming abuse? I'm not really seeing it likely to happen.

1: Powergaming isn't abusive. 2: People who are into it will do it all
the time. Squeezing every last drop of power out of your options so you can
take on bigger challenges.
Oh, right, you mean to say this isn't a powerful option.

<snip>
And seriously? It's +4 racial strength for Fighters for free if they
ever die, and they even get to keep the Human bonus feat and skill. All
Pathfinder's Polymorphing is now enhancement so stacks with that.

Because the spell, as written, it just gives you some stat mods. It's
not infinite attacks, but it is power.


/Much/ more interesting effect in 3.0 (and classic D&D) where you come
back as woodland critters or fey instead. Expect that sort of flavour to
make a comeback in 5e. 8]

--
tussock

[Rick Pikul]

That would be a way of handling it for 3.0/5, (3.P doesn't use LA).