Smart players/dumb characters
JKul
average or below average intelligence characters? If a ranger with an INT of
8, but played by a good intelligent role player, comes up with a brilliant
idea...what happens? Is that good role playing? Also, what about the reverse.
In a group of several players, there are players that are smarter than others.
Do you allow a person of normal intelligence play a mage with an INT of 17 or
18? Then, if said mage tries something stupid...?
Justin Clayman
JKul wrote in message <19990319144314...@ng-fv1.aol.com>...
Well for the first situation, I rarely have to deal with it. Most of the
smarter peope I roleplay with, are fairly good roleplayers and keep their
mouths shut. When they do come up with the idea, and they think their
character could come up with it, based on background, previous experience,
etc, I have them make a INT or WIS check depending on the situation.
As to the second situation, I more or less require people to do their best
to play the characters ability scores, and if they can't listen to the
player advice of smarter people. I know it may seem cruel, but I do not
enjoying everything being a dice roll. If someone can't figure something
out, and they have to roll dice to figure it out, it takes away the flow of
the game. If the player refuses to play his ability score, or listen to the
advive of others, I simply lower the ability score. Usually this is after
quite a few sessions of trying. Obviously someone would have a hard time
playing the 19 INT character, but those that try their best I try to work
with.
\-=The Dragon=-
Bruce Blanchard
>If you're DMing a large group, how do you guys handle smart people playing
>average or below average intelligence characters? If a ranger with an INT of
>8, but played by a good intelligent role player, comes up with a brilliant
>idea...what happens? Is that good role playing? Also, what about the reverse.
> In a group of several players, there are players that are smarter than others.
> Do you allow a person of normal intelligence play a mage with an INT of 17 or
>18? Then, if said mage tries something stupid...?
>
simple. Even completely stupid people can come up with a dandy of an idea once
in a while, and smart people can come up with some really poor decisions. A lot
of the decision making is done with the characters Wis & int combined. Ie. A
mage may know everything(18 int), but not know how to put it to good use(low
wis), and vice versa, a low int character may not know much but he may be able
to put whatever he does know to good use with high wis.
IMHO.
-Bruce
Barry B Wood
> If you're DMing a large group, how do you guys handle smart people playing
> average or below average intelligence characters? If a ranger with an INT
> of 8, but played by a good intelligent role player, comes up with a
> brilliant idea...what happens?
DM: "Great idea, Todd. Now, roll an Intelligence check to see if
your character is capable of stumbling onto it".
Todd: "Okay." <rolls d20> "Oh sh*t!..."
Jonathan W Hendry
>simple. Even completely stupid people can come up with a dandy of an idea once
>in a while, and smart people can come up with some really poor decisions. A
>lot of the decision making is done with the characters Wis & int combined.
Another thing to consider is that the details matter. A less-intelligent
character may come up with a great idea, but fail to consider all the
details.
For an example, see the Trojan Rabbit scene of Monty Python's Holy
Grail. Great idea - but they screw up the details; namely, they
forget to get *into* the rabbit before wheeling it up to the castle.
A real-life example might be something like the Maginot Line in
France.
Barry Smith
Exactly. Intelligence checks for the PCs are best IMO. Overall, however,
I've always found it hard for players to come up with a good idea,
regardless of their PC's Intelligence score, and say to them that they
cannot use that idea "because their PCs wouldn't think of that". The
idea is to have fun and it's fun when someone figures out the puzzle or
trick the DM throws towards the group, no matter what the PC's
Intelligence scores. Denial of an idea based on Int is an overall bad
decision IMO.
James Heltsley
>average or below average intelligence characters? If a ranger with an INT
of
>8, but played by a good intelligent role player, comes up with a brilliant
reverse.
> In a group of several players, there are players that are smarter than
others.
> Do you allow a person of normal intelligence play a mage with an INT of 17
or
>18? Then, if said mage tries something stupid...?
>
pretend not to know the things they know are a complete pain in the butt for
everybody. If a DM tells me that my character has to make a die roll to
realize that all these grimacing statues might imply that a creature capable
of petrification is lurking about, it is time to bail on that game. Think
of it this way: you may be a genius, but there will always be fields such as
auto mechanics or textiles that you choose to know nothing about. Moreover,
there may be those who test as low grade morons that are whizzes in these
same fields. Just consider adventuring to be one of those fields.
If you still feel there is a problem, take the following steps. Give the
party as a whole only general information which can be interpreted several
different ways. Get the reaction of the morons, then give written notes
with more detailed information to the more wise, intelligent, & experienced
in the group. When determining PC actions, always ask about the
unintelligent characters first. This allows the unintelligent to make the
initial blunders, and also allows the intelligent characters to creatively
react to what the other party members are doing. Finally, if you don't
think that your low level party should realize that they have come up
against a troll, don't tell them. "A large ugly humanoid," should suffice
as a description, and if the players complain, remind them of the crappy
lighting conditions and the rigors of preparing for combat. At higher
levels, use magic and special abilities to make encounters appear to be
something other than what they actually are. And if the players still guess
correctly...well, experienced players ought to have characters that tend to
survive. Call it fate, luck of the gods, whatever.
Best of luck,
Myth Jellies
Joshua Kaufman
>If you're DMing a large group, how do you guys handle smart people playing
>average or below average intelligence characters? If a ranger with an INT of
>8, but played by a good intelligent role player, comes up with a brilliant
>idea...what happens? Is that good role playing? Also, what about the reverse.
> In a group of several players, there are players that are smarter than others.
> Do you allow a person of normal intelligence play a mage with an INT of 17 or
>18? Then, if said mage tries something stupid...?
Well, first off. Intelligence and/or Wisdom does not mean you always
know what to say or do. Stupid people come up with great ideas and
Intelligent people come up with bad ideas. You must accept this
premise before making any changes.
Now if dumb players keep on coming up with ideas, then you have to
attribute it to poor role-playing, and dock them xp in terms of that.
But a person with an 8 intelligence is not an idiot. That's just
slightly below average. I'd worry more if the person had 6 or below
intelligence. But generally if people play a moronic character, they
tend to want to role-play the dumb oaf. Not coming up with the
brilliant ideas to save the party. So you just have to be cautious
if the player doesn't seem keen to this role-playing premise.
As for the smart/wise characters. I'll allow wisdom or intelligence
checks, if the character does something insanely stupid that they
normally wouldn't do. Other than that, you just have to accept the
mistakes a smart/wise character makes. Considering that your
smart/wise characters are priests and mages, and priests/mages tend to
be played by your more experienced players, I don't find too many
instances of characters screwing up that bad.
boglin
>If you're DMing a large group, how do you guys handle smart people playing
>average or below average intelligence characters? If a ranger with an INT of
>8, but played by a good intelligent role player, comes up with a brilliant
>idea...what happens? Is that good role playing? Also, what about the reverse.
> In a group of several players, there are players that are smarter than others.
> Do you allow a person of normal intelligence play a mage with an INT of 17 or
>18? Then, if said mage tries something stupid...?
>
If players with intelligent characters do something stupid, let it
happen. Remember - you can be intelligent without having any common
sense/wisdom. And, just because someone's 'stupid' doesn't mean they
can't have a good idea every now and then but maybe there are errors
in this idea or they can't communicate properly exactly what they mean
to the other characters. A good role-player should know the
limitations of a low Int (and 8 is only just below average(which I
believe is 10)) and act accordingly. If the ranger kept on coming up
with 'brilliant' ideas I would take the player aside, explain the
situation and offer the player the chance to continue with the
character or role up a new character with a higher Int. (After all, we
want to have fun and not continually slamming down one
player/character)
Don't try to put the statistics of a character onto the player. I
mean, if you do this with Int. - then where do you draw the line...
are weak people unable to play strong characters?!
Just because a characters Int is high doesn't mean the character acts
like it is - think of allthe intelligent people you know who do really
dumb things. :)
Lorien
boglin
arse!drink!feck!net!
Tim McGaha
<snip>
: simple. Even completely stupid people can come up with a dandy of an idea
: once in a while, and smart people can come up with some really poor
: decisions.
<snip>
Good point... A good example of this is Winston Churchill -- a *very* bright
man overall -- coming up with the plan for Gallipoli, which turned into a
disaster of epic proportions.
--
Tim McGaha -- Apprentice Space Cadet, First Class
"Treason doth never prosper, what's the reason?
For if it prospers, none dare call it treason."
-- Sir John Harrington
Dragoon Lancer
JKul <jk...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19990319144314...@ng-fv1.aol.com>...
> If you're DMing a large group, how do you guys handle smart people
playing
> average or below average intelligence characters? If a ranger with an
INT of
> 8, but played by a good intelligent role player, comes up with a
brilliant
> idea...what happens? Is that good role playing? Also, what about the
reverse.
> In a group of several players, there are players that are smarter than
others.
> Do you allow a person of normal intelligence play a mage with an INT of
17 or
> 18? Then, if said mage tries something stupid...?
>
Intelligence is what you know, such as advanced algebra and quantum
physics.
What you want is wisdom. Wisdom is problem solving, such as do you press
the big red button (low wisdom) or do you cut off the flow of coolant fluid
to the reactor and force a shutdown through your solar powered calculator
(high wisdom)
So its more of a wisdom question. But, if said ranger points to a series of
metal plates immersed in acid and says "battery" then divine
intervention\wrath is at hand
DURANLEAU Francois
> If you're DMing a large group, how do you guys handle smart people playing
> average or below average intelligence characters? If a ranger with an INT of
> 8, but played by a good intelligent role player, comes up with a brilliant
> idea...what happens? Is that good role playing?
INT 8 is not that low, so it's still possible for such character to have
some brilliant ideas from time to time. However, if the player always
finds "brilliant" ideas, or if the character has, let's say, 4 INT and
comes up with a master plan to take over a country considering every
details etc., then it is bad role-playing, IMO. Any good player should be
able to handle this rightfully.
> Also, what about the reverse.
> In a group of several players, there are players that are smarter than others.
> Do you allow a person of normal intelligence play a mage with an INT of 17 or
> 18? Then, if said mage tries something stupid...?
Rarely (never) IMCs PCs come up with such high intelligence. But what I
can say is that even someone with high intelligence can do stupid things
(you just have to be tired, for example, and you can do bad things).
However, PCs with high intelligence should be played with care, and the DM
should not put too much pressure on the player to come up with an idea too
quickly. He should give him some time to think (unless the player is
really capable of truely playing a high intelligence score).
___________________________________________________________________
"Si tout le monde faisait voeu de chastete,
ca serait la fin de l'humanite!"
- Francois d'Assise, dans <I>Francois et le chemin du soleil</I>.
Francois Duranleau
Etudiant au baccalaureat bidisciplinaire Mathematique-Informatique
Universite de Montreal
<dura...@jsp.umontreal.ca>
QRat
Justin Clayman <jlcl...@qtiworld.com> wrote in message
news:36f2c...@news.qgraph.com...
>As to the second situation, I more or less require people to do their best
>to play the characters ability scores, and if they can't listen to the
>player advice of smarter people. I know it may seem cruel, but I do not
>enjoying everything being a dice roll. If someone can't figure something
>out, and they have to roll dice to figure it out, it takes away the flow of
>the game. If the player refuses to play his ability score, or listen to the
>advive of others, I simply lower the ability score. Usually this is after
>quite a few sessions of trying. Obviously someone would have a hard time
>playing the 19 INT character, but those that try their best I try to work
>with.
>
>\-=The Dragon=-
Do you let anyone play a Wis of greater than say, 14 ... especially if
they're younger than say ... forty?
James.
Andrea and James Gustafson
gussie{nospam}@eudoramail.com
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ranch/9951/roleplay.html
QRat
Joshua Kaufman <hobb...@netzero.net> wrote in message
>As for the smart/wise characters. I'll allow wisdom or intelligence
>checks, if the character does something insanely stupid that they
>normally wouldn't do. Other than that, you just have to accept the
>mistakes a smart/wise character makes. Considering that your
>smart/wise characters are priests and mages, and priests/mages tend to
>be played by your more experienced players, I don't find too many
>instances of characters screwing up that bad.
This is what I generally do. After all, players are different from
characters. Players have knowledge that characters don't, and characters
have knowledge that players don't. Plus, I'm sorry to say it, I've never
roleplayed with anyone that I would class as having a Wis of 15 or more.
I've never roleplayed with anyone that i would class as having and IQ of 17
or more (possibly even 16, I'm tempted to guess high on some people. )
Ron Hancock
>know what to say or do. Stupid people come up with great ideas and
>Intelligent people come up with bad ideas. You must accept this
>premise before making any changes.
Here's a somewhat on-topic question...I'm getting ready to use a mage with a
6 WIS and an 18 INT. I was prepared to play him as bookish and naive, would
this be appropriate?
~DarC
Andy Baker
Ron Hancock wrote:
That's some really extreme ends of the scale there... VERY naive, particularly
in comparison to his high amount of book-learning. This is the kind of guy that
con-men dream about. It's likely that despite his high intelligence, he's going
to make consistently bad decisions, unless he has PLENTY of time to think about
them. I'd say that if he had a chance to sit down and ponder every choice, that
logically he could figure out which would be most/least likely to succeed, but
odds are if he has to make a snap judgement, he'd be better off flipping a coin.
I'm playing a mage like this (sort of) in an upcoming game, a clockwork magician
from the Complete Sha'ir's Handbook, and he's a VERY nonstereotypical mage.
(Alert: somewhat atypical scores ahead!)
Using 5d6, drop the lowest 2, for a very high-powered and high-lethality game,
Strength 17, Dex 18, Con 13, Int 18, Wis 9, Cha 14.
I'm planning to play him as a blacksmith's son, good with his hands and a whiz
at designing and building intricate machinery. However, he's easily distracted
and sidetracked, and often builds mechanicals without really thinking them
through. He tends to build things after the fact, rather than planning; if he
was out in the field and realized he really needed a lockpicking mechanical,
then he'd build one when he got back home. Eventually he'll have quite a
collection, but usually make bad decisions regarding which ones to take along
with him. I want him to be a befuddled but likable guy, who has good intentions
and great brainpower, but bad luck. Should be a lot of fun :)
Andy
verkuilen john v
[snip]
>Now if dumb players keep on coming up with ideas, then you have to
>attribute it to poor role-playing, and dock them xp in terms of that.
>But a person with an 8 intelligence is not an idiot. That's just
>slightly below average.
Agreed but an 8 is substantially below average. If scores are generated on
3d6, the 8 is roughly at the 20th percentile. These are the people who get
600 cumulatives on the SAT (if I recall the standard deviation of the SAT
correctly). We're talking consistent C-D student here.
I'd worry more if the person had 6 or below
>intelligence. But generally if people play a moronic character, they
>tend to want to role-play the dumb oaf. Not coming up with the
>brilliant ideas to save the party. So you just have to be cautious
>if the player doesn't seem keen to this role-playing premise.
Well 8 Int doesn't have to be a complete idiot, like you said, particularly
if character has a decent to high Wisdom. In the 8 Int/15 Wis scenario (which
is probably around what the ranger has) I'd be looking for someone who is
fairly canny and difficult to fool but not able to articulate reasons why
something's fishy. Or, as another poster suggested, the character might be
able to come up with the inkling of a good idea but have absolutely no idea
how to carry it through or understanding of the various costs and benefits of
undertaking the action. Forrest Gump is a good example of a 7 Int/16 Wis (or
thereabouts) character.
In the case of 8 Int/8 Wis, you have someone pushing into Homer Simpson land
although I'd probably rate Homer a bit lower, say 7 Int/6 Wis.
Reversing the situation is relatively easy. I suspect many of us have higher
Int scores than our Wisdoms....
Jay
--
J. Verkuilen ja...@uiuc.edu
WWCD? (What would Cthulhu do?)
verkuilen john v
did play a character with 18 Int and 8 Wis. Gunter Burly the Evil Viking was
a genius and he *knew* it. Oh boy did he know it and put lots of faith in his
own (often-justified) ability to outthink his opponents. He was very clever
but had no sense of people at all. His view of people was pretty much that
they were tools for his manipulation (Gunter was Neutral Evil). He had a very
difficult time understanding people's motivations and how they could be
different from his own; hence he viewed everyone with near-paranoid suspicion
(after all, he knew what *he* was planning for them... :).
In a way, Gunter was the opposite of naive--but too far around the bend.
scott
(verkuilen john v) wrote:
> hobb...@netzero.net (Joshua Kaufman) writes:
>
> >But a person with an 8 intelligence is not an idiot. That's just
> >slightly below average.
>
> Agreed but an 8 is substantially below average.
Strictly speaking, by the PHB, you are both wrong here. An 8
is at the low end of the average range. Average intelligence
is 8-10. 5-7 is low and 11-12 is very intelligent.
Dragar Steelepoint
Master of the Blade
______________________________________________________________
The World of Irial, The Grimoire Arcana, The World Shapers' Page, &
My AD&D Page at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/1820/
"Preserve wildlife . . . pickle a hedgehog."
cor...@bigfoot.com
Andy Baker wrote in message <36F57710...@iland.net>...
>
>
>Ron Hancock wrote:
>
>> >Well, first off. Intelligence and/or Wisdom does not mean you always
>> >know what to say or do. Stupid people come up with great ideas and
>> >Intelligent people come up with bad ideas. You must accept this
>> >premise before making any changes.
>>
>> Here's a somewhat on-topic question...I'm getting ready to use a mage
with a
>> 6 WIS and an 18 INT. I was prepared to play him as bookish and naive,
would
>> this be appropriate?
>>
>> ~DarC
>
I'm currently playing a wild mage with int 18 and wis 5, he is usually
stoned, has no concept of personal danger and casts Nahal's reckless dweomer
as his spell of choice, even going so far as to cast Rary's twice every day
to get 6 extra castings of Nahal's...
Joshua Kaufman
wrote:
>hobb...@netzero.net (Joshua Kaufman) writes:
>
>[snip]
>
>>Now if dumb players keep on coming up with ideas, then you have to
>>attribute it to poor role-playing, and dock them xp in terms of that.
>>But a person with an 8 intelligence is not an idiot. That's just
>>slightly below average.
>
>Agreed but an 8 is substantially below average. If scores are generated on
>3d6, the 8 is roughly at the 20th percentile. These are the people who get
>600 cumulatives on the SAT (if I recall the standard deviation of the SAT
>correctly). We're talking consistent C-D student here.
And history shows us that some of the finest minds in our time got C
or D's in their classes. So genius does not equal A. That aside, I
didn't compute the statistics here, but I was more concerned at 6 or
below, since that seems to be the point where your negative attributes
tend to kick in. Sorta like 15 or higher is where your positive
attributes kick in. To me, between 7 and 14 is not that significant,
if we use AD&D logic for those stats, although with intelligence,
there is a bit more of separation.
Justin Clayman
QRat wrote in message <4E9J2.2272$134....@news13.ispnews.com>...
>
> Do you let anyone play a Wis of greater than say, 14 ... especially if
>they're younger than say ... forty?
Perhaps some of the peope you play with have a problem roleplaying a higher
wisdom, I rarely, have the problem of people not playing their wisdom.
And none of the players have really argued over it, so I would have to guess
they agree, considering they will bring up nearly any point they disagree
with,
\-=The Dragon=-/
verkuilen john v
>On 21 Mar 1999 23:19:51 GMT, ja...@ux6.cso.uiuc.edu (verkuilen john v)
>wrote:
>>hobb...@netzero.net (Joshua Kaufman) writes:
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>>Now if dumb players keep on coming up with ideas, then you have to
>>>attribute it to poor role-playing, and dock them xp in terms of that.
>>>But a person with an 8 intelligence is not an idiot. That's just
>>>slightly below average.
>>
>>Agreed but an 8 is substantially below average. If scores are generated on
>>3d6, the 8 is roughly at the 20th percentile. These are the people who get
>>600 cumulatives on the SAT (if I recall the standard deviation of the SAT
>>correctly). We're talking consistent C-D student here.
>And history shows us that some of the finest minds in our time got C
>or D's in their classes. So genius does not equal A.
No, very true but my bets would be quite solidly against the D student. For
every Albert Einstein (who was a poor student and flunked out, IIRC) there are
at least 100 blathering idiots who are barely qualified to work at Burger King
and regularly fuck up a simple special order. (And things go the other way
around, too--I've met some A students who couldn't think their way out of a
paper bag.)
That aside, I
>didn't compute the statistics here, but I was more concerned at 6 or
>below, since that seems to be the point where your negative attributes
>tend to kick in. Sorta like 15 or higher is where your positive
>attributes kick in. To me, between 7 and 14 is not that significant,
>if we use AD&D logic for those stats, although with intelligence,
>there is a bit more of separation.
No, I have no real argument with your conclusion, just with the notion that
8 is "slightly below average." With nonlinear probability distributions,
the distance between 8 and 10 is quite large percentile-wise.
verkuilen john v
>In article <7d3uqn$iu9$1...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, ja...@ux6.cso.uiuc.edu
>(verkuilen john v) wrote:
>> hobb...@netzero.net (Joshua Kaufman) writes:
>>
>> >But a person with an 8 intelligence is not an idiot. That's just
>> >slightly below average.
>>
>> Agreed but an 8 is substantially below average.
>Strictly speaking, by the PHB, you are both wrong here. An 8
>is at the low end of the average range. Average intelligence
>is 8-10. 5-7 is low and 11-12 is very intelligent.
And if the PHB told you to jump off a bridge, would you do that too?
<just kidding>
Their mapping of the numbers and names are seriously stupid. One can define
what roughly corresponds to the the second quartile (8-10) as average if so
desired, but there aren't too many other people around who would believe it.
Just for reference, here's the PMF and CDF of 3d6 (which I happen to have
laying about from an exercise in game design several months ago).
X P(X=x) P(X<=x)
3 0.005 0.005
4 0.009 0.014
5 0.014 0.028
6 0.037 0.065
7 0.060 0.125
8 0.097 0.222
9 0.125 0.347
10 0.153 0.500
11 0.153 0.653
12 0.125 0.778
13 0.097 0.875
14 0.060 0.935
15 0.037 0.972
16 0.014 0.986
17 0.009 0.995
18 0.005 1.000
The mean and the median both equal 10.5 and the standard deviation is 2.64.
The definition of average used in Basic D&D is a sensible 9-12. And, even,
then, while the people in the 9-12 range don't differ statistically
(bonus-wise), there is a fair difference between them, corresponding to about
35 percentage points.
Ron Hancock
I gave him a Lawful Good alignment with compulsions to be brutally honest
(even with CHR of 14) and gave him almost all INT-based proficiencies.
During our first gaming session he irritated the CG fighter by insisting all
vanquished humanoid foes be given a decent burial, evensofar as going back
to town for a Cleric to do 'last rites.' :-)
Andy Baker wrote in message <36F57710...@iland.net>...
>
>
>Ron Hancock wrote:
>> Here's a somewhat on-topic question...I'm getting ready to use a mage
with a
>> 6 WIS and an 18 INT. I was prepared to play him as bookish and naive,
would
>> this be appropriate?
>>
>> ~DarC
>
Barry Smith
>
> >Well, first off. Intelligence and/or Wisdom does not mean you always
> >know what to say or do. Stupid people come up with great ideas and
> >Intelligent people come up with bad ideas. You must accept this
> >premise before making any changes.
>
> 6 WIS and an 18 INT. I was prepared to play him as bookish and naive, would
> this be appropriate?
Kinda. His very high Intelligence allows him to know alot of info as he
was growing up. His low Wisdom makes it very difficult for him to apply
his vast knowledge appropriately. He'll make alot of mistakes before he
finally understands how to apply knowledge to individual circumstances.
Once he has it down, however, he won't forget it. Experience will be a
big factor in how he eventually applies his knowledge.
Student
: And history shows us that some of the finest minds in our time got C
: or D's in their classes. So genius does not equal A.
Yeah, well, now I'm risking to tear open an entire can of clichees, but
Einstein is a good example of this.
Greetings,
der Joachim
--
Computional linguistics student at Tilburg University,
The Netherlands
http://pi0959.kub.nl/Haterd/index.html
A true hunter weeps at a merciless kill (The God Machine)
Student
: >Well, first off. Intelligence and/or Wisdom does not mean you always
: >know what to say or do. Stupid people come up with great ideas and
: >Intelligent people come up with bad ideas. You must accept this
: >premise before making any changes.
: Here's a somewhat on-topic question...I'm getting ready to use a mage with a
: 6 WIS and an 18 INT. I was prepared to play him as bookish and naive, would
: this be appropriate?
In fact I know such a person (be it with less int, but she is a university
student). She knows things, but just can't them place in reality. She is
a very exhausting person to deal with.
Role-play your character as somebody who has to be explained everything
very literally and thoroughly. Difficult, but fun.
Krae Elndr
retention of knowledge, and the storage of information. Hence the 'Wise Old
Hemit' type that knows everything about everything. Intelligence, on the other
hand, is not so much a measure of how much you know, but how bright you are. A
higher intelligence allows you to learn more, and apply what you learn. A high
WIS, low INT character in my book would be someone who is incredibly
Book-Smart, with little grasp on the actual application of the knowledge, while
a high INT, low WIS character wouldn't know too much stuff, but would possess a
sharp wit, and would learn quickly.... hence Mages need Intelligence (think
quickly and learn spells) while the Clerics need religious knowledge and
require vast retention skills.
On another note, I have the dispersion of rolls on 3d6...
You have an equal chance of rolling an 8 and a 13 (21 out of 214), and of
rolling a 10 and 11 (27 of 214). Obviously 10 and 11 are the two
highest-probabilites to roll, making them average, as well as perhaps 9 and 12
(25 out of 214).
By the way, if you are like me and know people who claim to have actually
rolled an all-18 character, the probability of actually rolling 6 18 stats on
3d6 is roughly one in 96,046,742,520,000... meaning if the approximately 6
billion people on earth rolled up stats 16 thousand times each, *ONE* of them
would get all 18s.
I feel like a math geek now.
-Krae Elendūr
"From all my readings on the revolt of the angels, two things are clear; God is
omnipotent, and Satan is not a fool. There seems to be a contradiction
here..."
-Steven Brust
verkuilen john v
>Joshua Kaufman (hobb...@netzero.net) tried to convey the following message:
>: And history shows us that some of the finest minds in our time got C
>: or D's in their classes. So genius does not equal A.
>Yeah, well, now I'm risking to tear open an entire can of clichees, but
>Einstein is a good example of this.
Right, there certainly are counterexamples, which is why "better grades =>
smarter" isn't a deterministic relationship, but it certainly is a strong one.
Intelligence is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition for getting good
grades in school but it certainly helps a great deal.
As I said earlier, for every misclassified Einstein (or his lesser peers who
aren't Nobel laureates but got crappy grades in school even though they're
fairly intelligent), there are lots and lots more who really *are* classified
correctly. Let me put it to you this way: If you were hiring and were
looking at two candidates who otherwise seemed to be the same, but one was
a C-D student at a bad college and the other was an A-B student at at a good
college, which would you want?
When you're talking about statistical associations, a few counterexamples
either way proves nothing.
Eric Tolle
Ron Hancock wrote:
> >Well, first off. Intelligence and/or Wisdom does not mean you always
> >know what to say or do. Stupid people come up with great ideas and
>
> Here's a somewhat on-topic question...I'm getting ready to use a mage with a
> 6 WIS and an 18 INT. I was prepared to play him as bookish and naive, would
> this be appropriate?
Well, going by 2nd. edition PG (with input from S&P), Intelligence covers
reasoning and knowledge, while Wisdom covers intuition, common sense, and
willpower. It can almost be seen as a left brain/right brian divide.
So...high Int and low Wis could lead to being naive, impulsive,
having low self-control, or intellectualized at the expense of
gut instinct.. He could be imperceptive, and prone to flights of
fancy that are completely impractical. He could even reason his
way into situations that someone with common sense would see
as ridiculous (the humming bee cannot generate enough lift to
fly-therefore, I am in no danger of attack from that hive").
A good reference would be to read Gulliver's Travels with the
section on Laputa (brilliant thinkers on a flying island, who have
to be swatted by their servants to bring their thoughts away from
the rapture ofreason, to concern themselves with mundane
things... like walking toward a ledge. ).
This could be a very fun character-especially if one reads some of
the proper satire Dumas comes to mind as well as Twain and
Swift.
--
Eric Tolle sch...@silcom.com
Information does not want to be free. Information wants to be
folded, spindled mutilated, and used to make funky children's
party hats.
S. Wilson
> Here's a somewhat on-topic question...I'm getting ready to use a mage with a
> 6 WIS and an 18 INT. I was prepared to play him as bookish and naive, would
> this be appropriate?
I've always seen Wisdom as willpower and good sense, in that a 14
Intelligence will help you do well on tests provided you study, and that a
14 Wisdom will make sure you actually *listen* to yourself and the little
voice in the back of your head that keeps saying, "You know, I really
oughtta _read_ that chapter before the quiz, instead of playing
Starcraft."
Hemlock
Int ~15 (1590 SAT), Wis ~4
S. Wilson
> hobb...@netzero.net (Joshua Kaufman) writes:
>
> [snip]
>
> >Now if dumb players keep on coming up with ideas, then you have to
> >attribute it to poor role-playing, and dock them xp in terms of that.
> >slightly below average.
>
> 3d6, the 8 is roughly at the 20th percentile.
Assuming that everyone in the world is generated on 3d6. The fact is, 8-10
Intelligence is defined as "average" range. To me, this indicates that 3d6
is for special, "adventurer"-types.
IMU, I generate "peasants" on 2d3+5.
Hemlock
Ron Hancock
>voice in the back of your head that keeps saying, "You know, I really
>oughtta _read_ that chapter before the quiz, instead of playing
>Starcraft."
>
>Hemlock
>Int ~15 (1590 SAT), Wis ~4
*lol* So, how'd you do in Starcraft? :-)
~DarC
verkuilen john v
Attributions are a bit messed up. I wrote the stuff marked with ">>".
>> hobb...@netzero.net (Joshua Kaufman) writes:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> >Now if dumb players keep on coming up with ideas, then you have to
>> >attribute it to poor role-playing, and dock them xp in terms of that.
>> >But a person with an 8 intelligence is not an idiot. That's just
>> >slightly below average.
>>
>> Agreed but an 8 is substantially below average. If scores are generated on
>> 3d6, the 8 is roughly at the 20th percentile.
>Assuming that everyone in the world is generated on 3d6. The fact is, 8-10
>Intelligence is defined as "average" range.
True, but then TSR has contradicted itself since I think it's fair to assume
that 3d6 is *their* baseline and there is no reasonable definition of average
that makes 8-10 average for 3d6. (Not that that's anything new.)
To me, this indicates that 3d6
>is for special, "adventurer"-types.
>IMU, I generate "peasants" on 2d3+5.
Sure, I've done similar things (following Gygax in the DMG1). I consider 3d6
to be normal human baseline and 4d6 drop low to be adventurer baseline.
If I want especially heroic adventurers, I use 4d6 drop low reroll 1's.
Soldiers get 4d6 drop low on their physicals but not on the other stats.
A blacksmith might well get 5d6 drop low 2 on strength. Bums would get much
lower scores (3d4 maybe), etc. My comment depends on 3d6 being the baseline,
which I think it is fair to assume is the most common one. But it could
certainly vary.