psionic powers
coch...@muvms6.wvnet.edu
some sort of save if not, it's pretty cheap if all he has to do is make his
power score.
Edward Keyes
The power must be used on a contacted mind to have the listed effect,
so it's a bit more expensive than given, and takes two rounds to use
(contact + id) and requires line of sight and has a limited range.
But no, there is no save, and even with all these minor limitations,
I have found it to be about the most unbalancing power given in the
standard psionics handbook (the Will and the Way is another matter).
This is because many finales to adventures require fighting just one
or a few very powerful people, situations where taking one of them out
of the fight entirely for a few rounds with no save is quite useful.
Plus the power is easy to repeat ad nauseam, as long as it takes the
fighters to hack the poor helpless enemy to morally confused little
tiny pieces. It's use against powerful wizardly enemies goes without
saying...
+---------- Edward Keyes, key...@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu ----------+
| aka Korel the Necromancer, aka Narabal the Gold, |
| aka Najib al-Qudra ibn Naaman, aka Fayiz al-Muluk abd-Hanif |
+- "A little inaccuracy saves a world of explanation." C.E.Ayres -+
st92...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu
key...@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu (Edward Keyes) wrote:
> In article <1995Feb1.204901.4255@muvms6>, coch...@muvms6.wvnet.edu wrote:
>
> > When psionicists use id insinuation on a non-psionicist character,
is he allowed
> > some sort of save if not, it's pretty cheap if all he has to do is make his
> > power score.
>
> The power must be used on a contacted mind to have the listed effect,
> so it's a bit more expensive than given, and takes two rounds to use
> (contact + id) and requires line of sight and has a limited range.
>
> But no, there is no save, and even with all these minor limitations,
> I have found it to be about the most unbalancing power given in the
> standard psionics handbook (the Will and the Way is another matter).
>
> This is because many finales to adventures require fighting just one
> or a few very powerful people, situations where taking one of them out
> of the fight entirely for a few rounds with no save is quite useful.
> Plus the power is easy to repeat ad nauseam, as long as it takes the
> fighters to hack the poor helpless enemy to morally confused little
> tiny pieces. It's use against powerful wizardly enemies goes without
> saying...
In my campaign, we used a save vs. spell to balance this mess. We
thought that after a 4th level psionicist slew an 18th level Thayvian
wizard all by her lonesome, that there was a major restructuring in
order. I think, although I am not certain, that TSR sent a revised
description including the save vs. spells. Using spells makes sense since
the more magical and mental characters, i.e., wizards, clerics, will have
a better chance of avoiding the affect. Note, however, the 1-2 punch (two
Id Insinuations per round).
-RWP
Scuminus Dregg
Edward Keyes (key...@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu) wrote:
: In article <1995Feb1.204901.4255@muvms6>, coch...@muvms6.wvnet.edu wrote:
: > When psionicist use id insinuation on a no psionicist charachter is
: > he allowed some sort of save if not, it's pretty cheap if all he
: > has to do is make his power score.
: The power must be used on a contacted mind to have the listed effect,
: so it's a bit more expensive than given, and takes two rounds to use
: (contact + id) and requires line of sight and has a limited range.
: But no, there is no save, and even with all these minor limitations,
: I have found it to be about the most unbalancing power given in the
: standard psionics handbook (the Will and the Way is another matter).
First off, why is it "pretty cheap" if "all the psionicist has to do" is
make a power score? The chance of that power score failing, even assuming
18 Wisdom (which I always assume for these arguements, just to be
charitable), is far better than almost any save vs. spell at low- to
mid-level.
Also, as was stated above, it must be used on a contacted mind,
which is not a penalty faced by any mage or priest. (Neither of which,
furthermore, runs the risk of screwing himself up by use of spells when
rolling a 20).
All the power does, anyway -- read _The Will and The Way_ -- is keep you
from moving from your position (heard of the Glue spell?) or taking an
action, for a lousy 1d4 rounds. You still defend normally. (I've
known some DMs who ruled that it was like a Hold Person -- and then
complained it was too powerful. Their own fault. Me, I originally said
you were simply stunned, with no Dex bonus and -4 to AC, and no attacks,
until that power-mongering Will and The Way book came along and made it
*less* powerful than even that.)
Let's compare with the mage spell, Power Word Stun. No need for Contact,
of course, nor for line-of-sight. Stuns you for anywhere from 1d4 rounds to
4d4 rounds, depending upon hit points, for all the effects of Id
Insinuation *plus* no Dex bonus and -4 to AC. No saving throw *and*,
obviously, no power score, so it's 100% effective, as opposed to the Id
Insinuation, which is only 65% successful -- assuming, again, that the psi
has a Wis of 18. No "prerequisites", and defense modes mean nothing.
Yeah. That horrible, over-powered psionicist, what a world-wrecker.
- Scuminus Dregg
--
--
"Don't answer the riddle; kill the sphinx."
"That which does not kill me had better be able to run away damn fast."
Mark Hughes
> ... a 4th level psionicist slew an 18th level Thayvian
> wizard all by her lonesome...
How did the 4th-level psionicist survive the 1 round that she had
to wait while making contact that the 18th-level wizard could have
used to fry her?
Mark
Jonathan David Dowell
>::sigh:: This one again, huh?
>Let's compare with the mage spell, Power Word Stun. No need for Contact,
>of course, nor for line-of-sight. Stuns you for anywhere from 1d4 rounds to
>4d4 rounds, depending upon hit points, for all the effects of Id
>Insinuation *plus* no Dex bonus and -4 to AC. No saving throw *and*,
>obviously, no power score, so it's 100% effective, as opposed to the Id
>Insinuation, which is only 65% successful -- assuming, again, that the psi
>has a Wis of 18. No "prerequisites", and defense modes mean nothing.
>
>Yeah. That horrible, over-powered psionicist, what a world-wrecker.
>
>
>- Scuminus Dregg
Well, since a first level psi can use id but it takes a 14th level mage to
use PowerWordStun, I'd say that this psionic is overpowered.
Also, a first level psi will get his psp back in about an hour. the mage
gets his spell back in no less than 9hr 10min.
Also, If I cast silence on the mage, he can't use the spell (or many others,
either). If I silence the psi, he can still Id me (and use virtually all of
his powers).
If I Hold the mage, he will be useless. If I hold the psi, He hasn't even been
impaired psionically.
This also applies to things like web, wall of force, entangle, etc.
Also, the only defense versus Id is having psionic power, which is very rare.
Considerably mor monsters have magic resistance, which could block the mage.
Also, it's very obvious whose responsible when the mage Power Stuns someone,
but with the psi, no evidence of his power used is apparent to an observer
(except for the now-stunned target, of course). About the best way for a psi
to travel with the party is for him to be shackled up as a captive or slave
(Unless they know better, they will never attack 'helpless' captive before
the big guy with a sword or the guy in robes).
Basically, the psi has far too few limits on his ability to wield power as
compared to existing mages/priests.
-Lord Intrope
"Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law." A. Crowley
Scuminus Dregg
for years now, so I've gathered a lot of them over time.
Jonathan David Dowell (jdd...@tam2000.tamu.edu) wrote:
: Well, since a first level psi can use id but it takes a 14th level mage to
: use PowerWordStun, I'd say that this psionic is overpowered.
...and, as I pointed out, Id Insinuation is nowhere *near* as powerful,
nor as easily implemented, as PWS.
: Also, a first level psi will get his psp back in about an hour. the mage
: gets his spell back in no less than 9hr 10min.
The mage will get *all* of his *many* spells back after one night's sleep
and the morning's study. A trade-off, yes. As in most regards, the
psionicist holds an advantage at low level, but at level 7+, the mage
easily holds the advantage.
: Also, If I cast silence on the mage, he can't use the spell (or many others,
: either). If I silence the psi, he can still Id me (and use virtually all of
: his powers).
And if you silence a fighter, he can still hit you. I'll agree, psionics
isn't magic, and has different advantages and disadvantages; in the long
run, the disadvantages win out. Furthermore, the wizard *can*, as you've
indicated, use other spells; silence is not the ultimate wizard killer.
Far better is Choke, which does continuing damage, rendering both magic
*and* psionics inoperable. And, BTW, there is the Vocalize spell, and
Dispel Silence.
: If I Hold the mage, he will be useless. If I hold the psi, He hasn't even been
: impaired psionically.
No, but you can still walk up and slit his throat, or do a thousand
other things. Whoopty-doo.
: This also applies to things like web, wall of force, entangle, etc.
I don't believe psionics, save psychoportive powers like Teleport, will
go through a Wall of Force. At least, I see nothing to indicate it in the
CPHB, and thus that's how I rule it.
As to the others, like I said, there are advantages and disadvantages.
: Also, the only defense versus Id is having psionic power, which is very rare.
Or invisibility, which is not.
: Considerably mor monsters have magic resistance, which could block the mage.
: Also, it's very obvious whose responsible when the mage Power Stuns someone,
Only if he's careless. If it happens in battle, it'll be obvious, but so
too will it be if you're in battle with a psionicist.
: but with the psi, no evidence of his power used is apparent to an observer
: (except for the now-stunned target, of course).
Not stunned, remember, just unable to attack. Kinda like Stoneskin, in a
sense.
: About the best way for a psi
: to travel with the party is for him to be shackled up as a captive or slave
: (Unless they know better, they will never attack 'helpless' captive before
: the big guy with a sword or the guy in robes).
And I know few non-munchkins willing to have their character constantly
travel shackled up on the chance that they runb into trouble. And gain no
save (in my book anyway) vs. fireballs, etc.
: Basically, the psi has far too few limits on his ability to wield power as
: compared to existing mages/priests.
Are you serious? As someone who has both played and DMed psionicists on
several occassions, I will state that the psionicist is far *more*
limited than any mage.
A psionicist, first off, has only a set number of powers, as opposed to
the mage, who can learn...let me check my PHB...6 spells of each level, at
*minimum* mage Intelligence, a 9 (the psionicist, BTW, needs more than this
just to be a psionicist, and it's not even a Prime Requisite).
These can be any spells of the appropriate level; a mage does not have to
learn Invisibility before he can learn Improved Invisibility.
A mage, regardless of Intelligence, has *no* chance of spell failure.
Thus, a mage with Intelligence 9, casts Magic Missile, it goes off, every
time, and always hits the target. The psionicist with the Mighty
Disintigration, on the other hand -- assuming, again, 18 Wisdom -- has
only a 70% chance of success (followed, of course, bny the usual saving
throw).
This, BTW, *is* the defense against Id Insinuation. There is no saving
throw, but there is another chance for it not to suceed; the power check.
Continuting with Disintegration (I just picked it at random), we find
that the psionicist just might disintegrate *himself* using it. The very
minimum chance of this, assuming the psionicist saves with a 2 or better
(only the best for our world-wrecker!) is one in four hundred. Not much,
but infinitely more than the mage has. And not every power is so
forgiving on a roll of 20.
Next, we'll find that, when a psionic power duplicates a spell effect, it
is almost universally inferior to the magical version. Disintegrate, for
example, affects only 8 cubic feet of matter, while the magical version
affects up to 1000 cubic feet of material. Or, say, Teleport; it affects
only the user, or up to a whole 2 other creatures (*if* the user
*doubles* the PSP cost). Magical Teleport affects 250 lbs, plus 150
lbs/level over 10th. And, of course, "distance is not a factor" with the
spell, while it *drastically* affects both the power score and PSP cost.
Now we'll move on to other powers. You will find that just as many
psionic powers offer saving throws as do spells (if not more so) -- this
*in addition* to the power check. And, almost invariably, if you make a
saving throw against a psionic power, you take *no* effect, as opposed to
many spells.
On a related note, I'll point out that psionic powers inflict laughable
damage when compared with spells. a tenth level mage inflicts 10d6 damage
with a Fireball (or Lightning Bolt, or any of several other
spells. Higher-level spells do considerably more). Save for half.
You know how much even a 30th-level psionicist does with a Psychic Crush?
1d8. Save negates.
"Oh," you say, "but a psionicist has much worse powers than that."
Really? Like what? The dreaded Psionic Blast causes you to lose 80% of
your hit points. Of course, in addition to the power score and
prerequisite abilitied, mentioned above, it's really not even as powerful
as Disintegration, or even Polymorph Other -- which can effectively
remove all hit points by turning you into a caterpillar.
The most damaging power in the CPHB is Detonate, which inflicts 1d10,
save for half. The one with the most *potential* damage is Death Field --
which requires that the psionicist suffer as much damage as he wishing
to inflict, and everyone *except the psionicist* gets a save (to halve
or negate, I forget which).
In _The Will and the Way_, we find a power (forget the name,
Psychoportive I think) which, at its most powerful, shoots 2 beams doing
1d20 each (costing 32 PSPs, imposing -4 to the power score).
You see, almost all magical spells have a level variable of some sort,.
increasin in range, damage, dsuration, *something* as the caster's level
increases. This is in addition to the new spells per level gained with
each level.
A mage, for instance, going from 1st to 2nd level, gains bonuses to
range, etc. *plus* one more first-level spell to cast, and might very
well learn a few new spells altogether. Going from 9th to 10th level, that
same mage gains one 2nd-level spell and one 5th-level spell, *plus* 1d6
to any Fireball of Lightning Bolt spell, *plus* 10 yards to range on
same, *plus* etc.
Now the (all 18s, again) psionicist: going from 1st to 2nd level, he
gains 13 PSPs and 2 devotions -- all previous powers are the same in all
respects. Going from 9th to 10th level, the psionicist gains -- whaddaya
know, 13 PSPs again, and *1* devotion. All previous powers are the same
in all respects. Thus, the psionicist is the only class to actually gain
*less* from going up a level at higher levels than at lower levels.
To look at this from another angle, let's say a 6th-level mage casts
_Haste_ and a 9th-level psi uses Accellerate (the mage can affect more
people, not just himself, but we'll ignore that). The mage's spell, from
that one casting, lasts 12 rounds. The psionicist must spend a total of 120
PSPs to achieve this duration.
Later, at 10th level, the mage has gained a 2nd and 4th level spell, and
on top of this -- but at no greater expense than before -- the Haste lasts
for one extra round. And all his other spells are enhanced, as well.
The psionicist, on the other hand, has gained 13 PSPs. To get that extra
round of Accellerate, he must spend 10 of these new PSPs. That's that.
All of his other powers are the same in all respects, as if they belonged
to a 1st-level psionicist.
As to monsters with magic resistance, fine, yeah, that's one of the few
advantages of psionics over magic; another is the lack of components.
Compare with the above. Andm, according the the CPHB, all Outer Planar
beings are at least 1st-level psionicists, rendering Telepaths virtually
useless against them; but not all of them have magic resistance, and even
those that do often have less than 30%.
And then there's Discipline business. As I mentioned earlier, a mage is
free to learn Abjuration, Conjuration, whatever, all at first level if he
wants. The psionicist, meanwhile, must carefull choose which Discipline
matters most every four or so levels, and which to do without.
To close up, let's talk items; only by specifically selecting a certain
power; and by taking the Metapsionics Discipline over whatever else the
psi might have wanted -- can a psionicist make empowered items. Even
then, the psionicist can ponly make an item to duplicate powers he
*already* possesses -- no Ring of Protection, no nothing that does not
exactly duplicate something the psi can already do. Furthermore, *all*
such items are sentient, and can try to take over the wielder if they so
choose. Lastly, they can be used by anyone, of any class; there's no
"psionicist only" items. The psionicist therefore has the fewest magical
items usable, as all others have "generic" items *plus* items only they
can use.
Next?
- Scuminus Dregg
--
--
"Don't answer the riddle; kill the sphinx."
"That which does not kill me had better be able to run away damn fast."
st92...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu
(Mark Hughes) wrote:
She used a sight link on one of the wizard's lackeys to get a good look at
the wizard. Once she had a look at the wizard, she could have contacted
him from a mile away with ease. She did so, then teleported to outside
the wizard's chamber and waited for him to leave. As soon as he opened
the door WHAMMO - he's a drooling mess. She just slit his throat after
that. End of story. With the save, he might have had a chance.
Mike Nancarrow
Mike "Fist of Odin" Nancarrow
Scuminus Dregg
: In article <3gtgh7$n...@eccdb1.pms.ford.com>, mhu...@pms144.pms.ford.com
: (Mark Hughes) wrote:
: > How did the 4th-level psionicist survive the 1 round that she had
: > to wait while making contact that the 18th-level wizard could have
: She used a sight link on one of the wizard's lackeys to get a good look at
: the wizard. Once she had a look at the wizard, she could have contacted
: him from a mile away with ease. She did so, then teleported to outside
: the wizard's chamber and waited for him to leave. As soon as he opened
: the door WHAMMO - he's a drooling mess. She just slit his throat after
: that. End of story. With the save, he might have had a chance.
Well, that explains it. You were giving her a power she didn't have.
According to The Will and The Way, you defend normally while under the
effects of Id Insinuation. You just can't attack or move from the spot
for 1d4 rounds (and, I might add, the psi has no idea exactly how many
that is). Even before this supplement, however, I never saw an indication
that the power should paralyze, it merely states that the target cannot
do anything. I have never read such a statement as "paralyzed" or "held"
unless the power/spell/whatever specifically says so.
*And*, I might add, that mage had plenty of chance. The chance that she'd
miss her power check on the Teleport (which I believe is pretty good at
1/2 mile), and then the chance that she'd miss her power check on the Id
Insinuation. I'll ignore the chance of simply missing the Contact check, at
this point, but will point out the 5% chance per attempt she made that she
wouldn't be able to contact him again until she'd reached another level.
Also, how many PSPs did this psi have? Teleporting half a mile is, I
believe, a 30 PSP job. Contact, let's see, 14th level, that's 8 or 13
PSPs, I forget which. Id insinuation, the double-shot effect means a cost
of 10, plus maintaining Contact for at least the 2 rounds of Teleport and
Id Insinuation, that's at least 2 more points for a total of 40, minimum.
How was she going to get away, even if she did succeed? Even with 18 in
all stats (my usual assumption in such cases), she'd only have 71 PSPs,
leaving her exactly 1 PSP to spare, assuming *all* power checks were
successful. This is hardly an intelligent thing to do. If she had a 16
on any of those scores, or two 17s, she wouldn't have had even enough
PSPs to teleport out.
Just thought of something else, how's a 4th level psi get Teleport and Id
Insinuation both? She can only have 2 Sciences at this level, and both
must be from the same discipline. Last I heard, Id Insinuation needs
Mindlink as a prerequisite. So, if her primary discipline is
Psychoportation, she can't have Id Insinuation at 4th level. If her
primary is Telepathy, she can't have Teleport.
Unless this is some Wild Talent thing, and I don't like Wild Talents
myself; they take too much away from the psionicist class, and I don't
think they were playtested *nearly* well enough.
In my experience, the "overpoweredness" of psionicists is usually simply
the DM's inability to properly manage it by either letting the PCs be the
only ones to use psionics, by not fully undewrstanding how to effectively
use them himself, or by not enforcing the *many* limitations of the class.
Please note, also, that this is not meant to be a flame or anything
against you (or your DM, if you're not it). Rather, I mean it as
constructive -- and I hope informative -- criticism. I simply hate to see a
good, enjoyable-to-roleplay class get the short end of the stick because
of misconceptions.
Charles Daniels
>Just thought of something else, how's a 4th level psi get Teleport and Id
>Insinuation both? She can only have 2 Sciences at this level, and both
>must be from the same discipline. Last I heard, Id Insinuation needs
>Mindlink as a prerequisite. So, if her primary discipline is
>Psychoportation, she can't have Id Insinuation at 4th level. If her
>primary is Telepathy, she can't have Teleport.
Not a prob, read the errata. No attack mode requires anything other than
contact. I usually only take the attack modes until I hit about 6th or
7th level myself.
Charles D.
Scuminus Dregg
: >Just thought of something else, how's a 4th level psi get Teleport and Id
: Not a prob, read the errata. No attack mode requires anything other than
: contact. I usually only take the attack modes until I hit about 6th or
: 7th level myself.
Okay, then, how 'bout the Sight Link? (never read the erratta sheet meself)
evans...@cobra.uni.edu
I can think of three options; 1) Create a common magic/empowered item that will
allow for a saving throw against psionic attack. 2) Give out a lot of wild
psionic tallents to the NPC bad-guys. 3) Make up a spell that allows the
detection of psionic using creatures, thereby making them the first targets of
all spell casting. Given the infinate amount of leeway for DM's in rule making
and new spell creation, I don't think psionics are so powerful.
Peace, Chris
#35 Sting Shines
Scuminus Dregg
: In article <keyesea-0202...@dial019.vanderbilt.edu>, key...@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu (Edward Keyes) writes:
: > In article <1995Feb1.204901.4255@muvms6>, coch...@muvms6.wvnet.edu wrote:
: I can think of three options; 1) Create a common magic/empowered item that will
: allow for a saving throw against psionic attack. 2) Give out a lot of wild
: psionic tallents to the NPC bad-guys. 3) Make up a spell that allows the
: detection of psionic using creatures, thereby making them the first targets of
: all spell casting. Given the infinate amount of leeway for DM's in rule making
: and new spell creation, I don't think psionics are so powerful.
Or just pay attention to how psionics is actually supposed to work, don't
let powers do more than the power description says, and enforce the many
already-existing limitations of psionicists. Try to imagine the use of a
power in actual playu, instead of being impressed by the implications of
the power description, or, better yet, try running a scenario or two
by yourself using actual die rolls.
Psionicists are ultimately limited enough already, without artificial
penalties.
Yamamoto
: let powers do more than the power description says, and enforce the many
: already-existing limitations of psionicists. Try to imagine the use of a
: power in actual playu, instead of being impressed by the implications of
: the power description, or, better yet, try running a scenario or two
: by yourself using actual die rolls.
I didn't like a lot of changes the psionics went through so I tossed out
half the rules and replaced with mine.
I now have combat modifiers with ability scores.
Psychic contest is d20 + level + combat modifiers.
Tangets - 3 consecutive tanges requirements but have +5 after 1st tangent.
Contact maintenance = level of character (ie, 100th level character would
require psionicist to spend 100 pts to maintain)
Believe it or not, it really works pretty well.
-Shag
Livewire
>From: jdd...@tam2000.tamu.edu (Jonathan David Dowell)
{Snip +3}
>
>Well, since a first level psi can use id but it takes a 14th level mage to
>use PowerWordStun, I'd say that this psionic is overpowered.
>
>gets his spell back in no less than 9hr 10min.
>
>either). If I silence the psi, he can still Id me (and use virtually all of
>his powers).
>
>impaired psionically.
>
>
>Also, it's very obvious whose responsible when the mage Power Stuns someone,
>to travel with the party is for him to be shackled up as a captive or slave
>(Unless they know better, they will never attack 'helpless' captive before
>the big guy with a sword or the guy in robes).
>
>compared to existing mages/priests.
>
>"Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law." A. Crowley
>
>
psionics. In my Realms campaign, Psionicists keep a low profile, lest the
local mage toast their buttocks trying to find out how to counter them.
There are a few Items (Jessail's Silver Ring, for 1) that do provide psionic
defences.
Wild Talents have it worse. Again in my campaign, the player in devisiong
a background, must state that the WT has a psionicist in his past somehow,
or else the talent is uncontrolable until training is given. In addition
true psi's distrust the WT, since by fate he has beeen given what they work
so hard to gain. This background is determined before the dice is rolled,
adding the additional penality that the NPC psi might call on him for a
favor, share enemies ect.
Also I use the Will and the Way. If you're paranoid about psis, spend the
two slots and give him the mental defence prof. This IMHO makes one closed
to contact and they have to blast their way in.
Between being potential lab rats, hunted and having mages trying nifty
spells on them, my psis hide their powers whenever possible.
The Livewire
Rich Paules
> Just thought of something else, how's a 4th level psi get Teleport and Id
> Insinuation both? She can only have 2 Sciences at this level, and both
> must be from the same discipline. Last I heard, Id Insinuation needs
> Mindlink as a prerequisite. So, if her primary discipline is
> Psychoportation, she can't have Id Insinuation at 4th level. If her
> primary is Telepathy, she can't have Teleport.
Sorry, dude. It wasn't the Teleport Science. It was a ring of
teleportation (her only magic item) that she used to get there.
-RWP
A PASSANTE
something like that?
You can disbeilive something (eg. wizard spells, or a golem)
and as far as the psi is concerned, that doesn't exist, he can
happily walk though tentacles without seein them because
they're not there
Zante
"If you can't outsmart them, man you'd better run"
Scuminus Dregg
: have you heard of personal reality, subjective reality or
: something like that?
: You can disbeilive something (eg. wizard spells, or a golem)
: and as far as the psi is concerned, that doesn't exist, he can
: happily walk though tentacles without seein them because
: they're not there
Yep. Subjective Reality. It can be cool, *if* you know what to
disbelieve. Of course, it's prohibitively expensive (35 + 7/rnd). And it
won't disbelieve a golem (I'd count that as "livcing creatures" for
purposes of this power). You *can* disbelieve, for example, mnelee
weapons, or wizardly magic, or priestly magic.
My favorite, in AD&D, is to disbelieve *psionic*. Now *there's* a
causality loop.
Of course, the psionicist can't affect the disbelieved phenomenon,
either, so he won't be able to help stop the walls that are closing in on
the rest of his party, for example.
Oh, my *really* favorite use for this was actually in a wonky Robotech
game in which we were using AD&D psionics. The DM had a thing called
Psi-Dampeners: Level 1, a psi can't work psionics in it. Level 2, as per
1 *and* psionics won't *function* in it. Level 3, as 2, but the psi takes
damage from *trying* to use psionics. Level 4 (very rare), as per 2, but
anyone who spends even 1 PSP while in the field *dies*, no saving throw.
So I disbelieved them! Heh!
Karl Stiefvater
: >Last I heard, Id Insinuation needs Mindlink as a prerequisite.
: Not a prob, read the errata. No attack mode requires anything other than
: contact. I usually only take the attack modes until I hit about 6th or
: 7th level myself.
No, Scum is right (may I call you Scum?)
The Psi errata sheet reaffirms Mindlink is Id's prereq.
-
Karl Stiefvater
qa...@cs.wustl.edu
Mike Nancarrow
Stiefvater) wrote:
So does the Will and the Way
--
Mike "Fist of Odin" Nancarrow
"Sure I only have one eye, but my rune wand causes instant death
to all mortals, so I get by OK, thanks."
--Odin, The All-Father, declining the Eye of Vecna
Jay Knioum
Why do some people assume that a psionicist is going to stand way out in
the open while attempting to contact someone's mind? If I was trying
to contact an archmage's mind at 4th level, I would damn sure have a real
good hiding place before making the attempt. Not to mention that a
psionicist doesn't necessarily have to SEE the creature she is trying to
contact...
A psionicist can deal with just about anything, given time and a
decent place to hide.
jk
>Mark
Yancy E. Small
On 5 Feb 1995, Scuminus Dregg wrote:
{Much text cut to save space}
>
> According to The Will and The Way, you defend normally while under the
> effects of Id Insinuation. You just can't attack or move from the spot
> for 1d4 rounds (and, I might add, the psi has no idea exactly how many
> that is). Even before this supplement, however, I never saw an indication
> that the power should paralyze, it merely states that the target cannot
> do anything. I have never read such a statement as "paralyzed" or "held"
> unless the power/spell/whatever specifically says so.
>
Just curios but "paralyzed" vs "can't attack or move from the spot" &
"target cannot do anything"? Isn't that about the same thing?
{Much more cut text that I agree with for the most part}
>
> Please note, also, that this is not meant to be a flame or anything
> against you ...
Ditto.
Dambiel.
Scuminus Dregg
: >
: Just curios but "paralyzed" vs "can't attack or move from the spot" &
"Paralyzed" means you're stock-still, and can automatically be hit and/or
killed. "Can't do anything", I read to mean you can't initiate an
action; attack, cast a spell, drink a potion; basically, in the context
of Id Insinuation, like you're reeling and unable to think coherently,
but can still keep your feet and react instinctively (like duck).
"Can't attack or move from spot" is just that; like as if you're tied by
one ankle, that's hardly the same as paralyzed, even if you have your
hands tied as well, you can still react, you're just limited to reaction
instead of action.
Spatula
|> Sorry this is so long, folks, but I've been repeating these arguments
|> for years now, so I've gathered a lot of them over time.
|> Jonathan David Dowell (jdd...@tam2000.tamu.edu) wrote:
|> : Well, since a first level psi can use id but it takes a 14th level mage to
|> : use PowerWordStun, I'd say that this psionic is overpowered.
|> ...and, as I pointed out, Id Insinuation is nowhere *near* as powerful,
|> nor as easily implemented, as PWS.
Not as easily implemented? What does that mean? No casting time
(PWS has a 1, but still), no verbal component, sure, chance of failure, but
what does that mean? You lose, what, 3 PSPs? And try again next round.
Yes, it's not as powerful as PWS, but it's really incapacitating, especially
at low levels, especially in worlds like Dark Sun (where you can have
Halflings with 22 Wisdoms!).
|> : Also, a first level psi will get his psp back in about an hour. the mage
|> : gets his spell back in no less than 9hr 10min.
|>
|> The mage will get *all* of his *many* spells back after one night's sleep
|> and the morning's study.
Not if you go by the rules (which I don't, but hey). A Mage needs
4 hours just to *prepare* to study, then some formula to figure out the time
for each spell. A 14th level mage needs something close to a full *day* to
rememorize all his spells.
|> : If I Hold the mage, he will be useless. If I hold the psi, He hasn't even been
|> : impaired psionically.
|>
|> No, but you can still walk up and slit his throat, or do a thousand
|> other things. Whoopty-doo.
Not if he dominates you first, and has you untie him, and then slits
your throat.
|> : Also, it's very obvious whose responsible when the mage Power Stuns someone,
|>
|> Only if he's careless. If it happens in battle, it'll be obvious, but so
|> too will it be if you're in battle with a psionicist.
How so? Especially if they go and hide out of direct view. I hardly
call using psionics obvious.
|> This, BTW, *is* the defense against Id Insinuation. There is no saving
|> throw, but there is another chance for it not to suceed; the power check.
With 2 chances to make it every round and more than a 1/2 chance of
success (and little lost for a failure, aside from time), the power check
isn't that big of a prohibitation. This is true of all non-major powers
(the ones that have little modifier on stats for the power check and don't
cost loads of PSPs).
|> Now we'll move on to other powers. You will find that just as many
|> psionic powers offer saving throws as do spells (if not more so) -- this
|> *in addition* to the power check.
This is definitely false.
|> On a related note, I'll point out that psionic powers inflict laughable
|> damage when compared with spells. a tenth level mage inflicts 10d6 damage
|> with a Fireball (or Lightning Bolt, or any of several other
|> spells. Higher-level spells do considerably more). Save for half.
|>
|> You know how much even a 30th-level psionicist does with a Psychic Crush?
|> 1d8. Save negates.
I thought this too, at first, but a Psi's main strength isn't in
inflicting hit point damage, but taking foes out of the fight, regardless
of HP, potentially having them fight for your side as well.
|> You see, almost all magical spells have a level variable of some sort,.
|> increasin in range, damage, dsuration, *something* as the caster's level
|> increases. This is in addition to the new spells per level gained with
|> each level.
Valid point.
|> As to monsters with magic resistance, fine, yeah, that's one of the few
|> advantages of psionics over magic; another is the lack of components.
|> Compare with the above. Andm, according the the CPHB, all Outer Planar
|> beings are at least 1st-level psionicists,
Whee. Unless demons are as common as orcs in your world, this doesn't
matter much.
|> rendering Telepaths virtually
|> useless against them;
Why? It just means they have to fight through defeneses before contact.
No big deal.
|> - Scuminus Dregg
--
Spatula ______ shu...@rpi.edu
===================/@@##@@\=======================
"Don't you laugh, {@@####@@}
damn you, don't `~~||~~' "Stupid f**king
you laugh!" BAMF! words!"
-A Clockwork _||_ -Fugazi
Orange /@##@\
==================================================
Scuminus Dregg
: |> ...and, as I pointed out, Id Insinuation is nowhere *near* as powerful,
: Not as easily implemented? What does that mean? No casting time
: (PWS has a 1, but still), no verbal component, sure, chance of failure, but
: what does that mean? You lose, what, 3 PSPs? And try again next round.
: Yes, it's not as powerful as PWS, but it's really incapacitating, especially
: at low levels, especially in worlds like Dark Sun (where you can have
: Halflings with 22 Wisdoms!).
I don't play Dark Sun, nor do I consider it a typical setting. Psionics
is apperently *supposed* to be way-gonzo powerful there, that's why
everyone has it.
By "not as easily implemented", I mean that it requires Contact -- so it
takes at *least* two rounds of action, and, yes, a few power scores. "And
try again next round" means you just spoent a round doing nothing. It's like saying to someone with a
lousy THAC0, "So you missed? Try again next round." You just might not be
alive next round.
Power Word Stun, you say "Stun" and they're stunned.
: |> The mage will get *all* of his *many* spells back after one night's sleep
: |> and the morning's study.
: Not if you go by the rules (which I don't, but hey). A Mage needs
: 4 hours just to *prepare* to study, then some formula to figure out the time
: for each spell. A 14th level mage needs something close to a full *day* to
: rememorize all his spells.
But, as I pointed out further on, a 14th-level mage is not nearly as
likely to *need* to rememorize all his spells at once. Whenever I play a
psionicist, he runs out of PSPs (or nearly so) every *combat*.
: |> : If I Hold the mage, he will be useless. If I hold the psi, He hasn't even been
: |> : impaired psionically.
: |> No, but you can still walk up and slit his throat, or do a thousand
: |> other things. Whoopty-doo.
: Not if he dominates you first, and has you untie him, and then slits
: your throat.
How long does it take you to slit a throat? (And, BTW, I'd like to take
this opportunity to again mention my distaste for the throat-slitting
cliche. Way too many folks do it without a thought, and it's really a
messy business, should be rather disturbing...)
: |> Only if he's careless. If it happens in battle, it'll be obvious, but so
: |> too will it be if you're in battle with a psionicist.
: How so? Especially if they go and hide out of direct view. I hardly
: call using psionics obvious.
If you're in combat with him, you're in combat with him. You're trying to
hit him no matter *what* he may or may not be doing. As for hiding out of
direct view, a mage can do that, too, and whisper.
: |> This, BTW, *is* the defense against Id Insinuation. There is no saving
: |> throw, but there is another chance for it not to suceed; the power check.
: With 2 chances to make it every round and more than a 1/2 chance of
: success (and little lost for a failure, aside from time), the power check
: isn't that big of a prohibitation. This is true of all non-major powers
: (the ones that have little modifier on stats for the power check and don't
: cost loads of PSPs).
All two checks do is *lower* the chance of failure, since I read nothing to
say the effects are cumulative. So a psi with 18 Wisdom (yes, always
assume the best!) has a 70% chance of making one check, and, yes, that's
a pretty good chance (91%) of making one or the other. That's still 9%
less than the mage's 100% chance. And the PSP cost must be paid for
*each* of the two "shots".
: |> Now we'll move on to other powers. You will find that just as many
: |> psionic powers offer saving throws as do spells (if not more so) -- this
: |> *in addition* to the power check.
: This is definitely false.
Care to back that up with citations from the books?
: |> On a related note, I'll point out that psionic powers inflict laughable
: |> damage when compared with spells. a tenth level mage inflicts 10d6 damage
: |> with a Fireball (or Lightning Bolt, or any of several other
: |> spells. Higher-level spells do considerably more). Save for half.
: |> You know how much even a 30th-level psionicist does with a Psychic Crush?
: |> 1d8. Save negates.
: I thought this too, at first, but a Psi's main strength isn't in
: inflicting hit point damage, but taking foes out of the fight, regardless
: of HP, potentially having them fight for your side as well.
Like a mage, or a priest (Charm Person, 1st-level spell, lasts a
minimum of 1 day; Charm Person or Mammal, 2nd-level spell, ditto).
And, I admit, psi's are better in one-on-one combat than are mages or
priests (usually). That's kind of my point. It's a psi's main strength, so
it's too powerful?
: |> You see, almost all magical spells have a level variable of some sort,.
: |> increasin in range, damage, dsuration, *something* as the caster's level
: |> increases. This is in addition to the new spells per level gained with
: |> each level.
: Valid point.
Thank you.
: |> As to monsters with magic resistance, fine, yeah, that's one of the few
: |> advantages of psionics over magic; another is the lack of components.
: |> Compare with the above. Andm, according the the CPHB, all Outer Planar
: |> beings are at least 1st-level psionicists,
: Whee. Unless demons are as common as orcs in your world, this doesn't
: matter much.
I've already covered orcs with the statement that they are weak in
toe-to-toe combat, especially against multiple opponents. Against one
orc, a psi is no better than any other class and worst than most. Against
a group of orcs, a psi is toast regardless.
However, orcs are not magic resistant, so they are not germaine to the
topic. The original poster was speaking of the commonness of
magic-resistant beings as opposed to psionics ones. Drow aren't as common
as orcs in my world, either.
: |> rendering Telepaths virtually
: |> useless against them;
: Why? It just means they have to fight through defeneses before contact.
: No big deal.
No big deal? A Telepath must spend at *least* two rounds battering through
defenses before he can even begin to use any powers in the normal fashion,
and may well get the same treatment, as such beings typically have rather
high power scores. Further, the Telepath's several-times-mentioned
strength -- the ability to use powers unobserved -- is rendered useless;
hit the thing with Id Insinuation, or Mental Blow, or whatever, to batter
your way in, and it's going to turn around and start whaling on you.
It just might even single you out of the party for trying to get into its
head.
Scuminus Dregg
from. The number of other-creature affecting powers that have saving
throws seems to be a bit high in relation to spells. But I've gone over
the powers list in The Will and The Way this morning, and I see the reason.
There are very few other-affecting powers in the first place.
I didn't count the Dragon Kings powers, since I don't have that
supplement, but among the others, there were very few that extended
beyond the psionicist himself
In the figures below, I considered all powers I felt affected other
beings in a harmful manner. I did not count:
- most "divination" type spells, such as Sight Link. (Though I did count
ESP and other "mind reading" powers.)
- Powers that only affect willing or helpless targets (you can kill
helpless targets anyway, so whatever you do to them psionically can't
really be called unbalancing).
- *Most* powers that do not affect an opponent directly, though I did
included Detonate, Mass Manipulation, Molecular Bonding and a few
others of that sort.
- Contact, because it doesn't *do* anything. It is merely a limitation
which must be overcome before the Telepath can use an other powers. It
kind of equates with "breathing" in a priest or mage.
Of all Disciplines, Telepathy is king when it comes to affecting other
targets (Over half the Telepathic powers affect other targets against
their will).
Here is the breakdown:
DISCIPLINE TOTAL POWERS USABLE AGAINST
OTHERS
Clairsentience 29 0
Psychokinesis 31 14
Psychonetabolism 42 8
Psychoportation 29 4
Telepathy 55 31
Metapsionics 31 7
Total 217 64
Of which, quite a few give saving throws (I haven't figured that one out
yet). And, when a saving throw *is* called for, success generally means
the subject suffers *no* effect, as opposed to the many spells which
cause half damage, or have some other, lesser effect, even if the saving
throw is made.
I'm going to scan through the Tome of Magic for similar data, and maybe
I'll find I'm wrong but I thing the ratios will be quite different.
Either way, I'll post it, eventually.
Alex Oren
As I've never looked at psis before (my players don't seem to like
them) but had to cope with cocky mages I learned that dispel magic
upsets them most.
What do I do against a psi to hear that dear groan?
Have fun!
Alex
Scuminus Dregg
: One question:
Cerebral Parasites, my friend. Especially if there's no one around
with a Cure Disease. Works every time.
Jon Dowell
You could try feeblemind.
Melf's Acid Arrow is good,too (ever try to concentrate whilst coated in
Acid?)
Clerics might try Command or Sticks to Snake (they just keep biting...)
Fighters should go with the headlock.
BTW, to make whole parties groan try Death Spell. (No save, no ressurect,
can take down 10th level characters...)
-Lord Intrope
"Uh, guys, uh, we can't have any firing in there..." Lt. Goreman, Aliens
"Hey Vasquez, have you ever been mistaken for a man?"
"No. have you?" Vasquez, Aliens
Cougar390
novels on the Deryni.? If so, is anyone intersted in helping to develop an
AD&D campaign for this setting? If anyone is interested please e-mail me
at DeryniLord.......