2nd Edition Bahamut and Tiamat
rog...@ix.netcom.com
Sorry if this has been posted before, but, darn it, it's not
in the RGFD FAQ.
Where can I find "official" (or as-official-as-possible) stats
for Bahamut and Tiamat, tailored for SECOND EDITION rules?
1st Edition B&T are way too weak when compared to run-of-the-mill
2nd Edition dragons, and the new 3rd Edition B&T are much too
powerful.
I've heard that a Forgotten Realms supplement called the
_Dragonomicon_ had 2nd-edition stats for Bahamut and Tiamat,
but according to Amazon.com, _Dragonomicon_ is out of print.
Are the Bahamut and Tiamat stats available anywhere else?
On a webpage or FTP site, perhaps?
advTHANKSance,
--
Roger M. Wilcox (rog...@ix.netcom.com) -- a.k.a. Tracer
purveyor of the Internet Stellar Database, www.stellar-database.com
I'm not flying fast, just orbiting low. Oh, and I'm sodium.
MSTie # 38808 | http://www.netcom.com/~rogermw ... now in EXTRA bold!
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Alan Kohler
rog...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>
> Sorry if this has been posted before, but, darn it, it's not
> in the RGFD FAQ.
>
> Where can I find "official" (or as-official-as-possible) stats
> for Bahamut and Tiamat, tailored for SECOND EDITION rules?
> 1st Edition B&T are way too weak when compared to run-of-the-mill
> 2nd Edition dragons, and the new 3rd Edition B&T are much too
> powerful.
>
> I've heard that a Forgotten Realms supplement called the
> _Dragonomicon_ had 2nd-edition stats for Bahamut and Tiamat,
> but according to Amazon.com, _Dragonomicon_ is out of print.
> Are the Bahamut and Tiamat stats available anywhere else?
> On a webpage or FTP site, perhaps?
>
> advTHANKSance,
Dragon 272.
HTH
--
Alan D. Kohler - http://members.tripod.com/~hawk_wind/homepage.html
"Look into my face and you will know I am a man possessed by DEMONS!
Polite demons... demons that would open a door for a lady carrying too
many parcels... but demons nonetheless!" - from KITH
Peter Seebach
Alan Kohler <hawkw...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>In article <91p0nj$tja$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> rog...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> Where can I find "official" (or as-official-as-possible) stats
>> for Bahamut and Tiamat, tailored for SECOND EDITION rules?
>Dragon 272.
>HTH
Probably not, given that those are the *3rd Edition* versions. He said
"second".
<beavis>
Heh heh. he said "second". huhuhuhuh.
</beavis>
-s
--
Copyright 2000, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / se...@plethora.net
C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon!
Consulting & Computers: http://www.plethora.net/
Jeremy Reaban
rog...@ix.netcom.com wrote in message
<91p0nj$tja$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
<snip>
>I've heard that a Forgotten Realms supplement called the
>_Dragonomicon_ had 2nd-edition stats for Bahamut and Tiamat,
>but according to Amazon.com, _Dragonomicon_ is out of print.
>Are the Bahamut and Tiamat stats available anywhere else?
>On a webpage or FTP site, perhaps?
I don't have it, so I can't swear the stats are in it, but you can buy
an electronic version of the Dragonomicon for $3. That is, if you have
a PC, and live in the US and certain other countries..
Ian R Malcomson
>I've heard that a Forgotten Realms supplement called the
>_Dragonomicon_ had 2nd-edition stats for Bahamut and Tiamat,
>but according to Amazon.com, _Dragonomicon_ is out of print.
The "Draconomicon" indeed OOP, but will likely appear soon under the ESD
downloads. However, more complete (and better worked out, IMO) stats
for Tiamat and Bahamut can be found in Polyhedron #73 (July 1992). They
are also in Monstrous Compendium format, where the "Draconomicon"
versions are in short-hand. You might be able to find a copy of the mag
on a second hand site, or on e-bay.
--
Ian R Malcomson
Erstwhile Domicus bloke
Domicus website: http://www.domicus.demon.co.uk
ProFantasy Freelancer: http://www.profantasy.com
Barry Smith
>
> >I've heard that a Forgotten Realms supplement called the
> >_Dragonomicon_ had 2nd-edition stats for Bahamut and Tiamat,
> >but according to Amazon.com, _Dragonomicon_ is out of print.
>
> The "Draconomicon" indeed OOP, but will likely appear soon under the ESD
> downloads. However, more complete (and better worked out, IMO) stats
> for Tiamat and Bahamut can be found in Polyhedron #73 (July 1992). They
> are also in Monstrous Compendium format, where the "Draconomicon"
> versions are in short-hand. You might be able to find a copy of the mag
> on a second hand site, or on e-bay.
The ESD is already out for Draconomicon. tsr9297.
--
Long live 2e.
Steven Merritt
>
> Where can I find "official" (or as-official-as-possible) stats
> for Bahamut and Tiamat, tailored for SECOND EDITION rules?
> 1st Edition B&T are way too weak when compared to run-of-the-mill
> 2nd Edition dragons, and the new 3rd Edition B&T are much too
> powerful.
Well, I haven't seen the first or third ed versions of Bahamut and Tiamat,
but I do have an old DMG for 2nd ed laying around here somewhere which has
their basic stats in the appendix. It may be enough of what you want. No
real information about special attacks, range, type, damage, etc, but basic
things like size, HP, Attacks, THAC0, AC, intelligence and XP value.
Tiamat, the Chromatic Dragon
Size:L
Thac0: 7
AC: 0
HP: 128
Attacks: 6
Damage/Attack: 2-16, 3-18, 2-20, 3-24, 3-30, 1-6
Special Attacks: Breath Weapon, Posion Sting, Magic Use
Special Defense: Nil
Intelligence: Genius
XP: 63580 *
That's all the info in my appendix, but I do know a few more things about
Tiamat. Her breath weapons are all the breath weapons of the original
chromatic dragons used as if they were Great Wyrms(emanating from the
appropriate head). I don't have specifics on her posion sting.
Bahamut, the Platinum Dragon
Size: L
Thac0: 7
AC: -3
HP: 168
Attacks: 3
Damage/Attack: 2-12, 2-12, 6-48
Special Attacks: Breath Weapon, Magic Use
Special Defenses: Nil
Intelligence: Supra-Genius
XP: 58058 *
Bahamut has his choice of three breath weapons. I only remember one of them
sadly. It's a roar which acts as a disentegrate spell, if I remember
correctly. Maybe someone else has these specs.
* These XP figures are for destroying their Prime Material Plane form only.
If actually permanently destroyed on their home plane, multiply XP by a
factor of 10.
Of course spells would be up to you as the caster. Bahamut is Lawful Good,
IIRC and Tiamat is Chaotic Evil.
I'd like to take this opportunity to say that my DMG from 1979 rocks
compared to the current works. Sure it's outdated, but it's got Psionics,
Aireal and underwater combat, the full section on artifacts and relics and a
ton of stuff which was later farmed out into "supplements" When I run a
campaign, all I need is my DMG.
Steven
Steven Merritt
"Steven Merritt" <smer...@startrekmail.com> wrote in message
news:UsW%5.14271$bw.11...@news.flash.net...
> <rog...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:91p0nj$tja$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> >
> > Where can I find "official" (or as-official-as-possible) stats
> > for Bahamut and Tiamat, tailored for SECOND EDITION rules?
> > 1st Edition B&T are way too weak when compared to run-of-the-mill
> > 2nd Edition dragons, and the new 3rd Edition B&T are much too
> > powerful.
>
> Well, I haven't seen the first or third ed versions of Bahamut and Tiamat,
> but I do have an old DMG for 2nd ed laying around here somewhere which has
> their basic stats in the appendix
Hmm, the more I look at this, the more it looks like this is a first ed DMG.
Odd, I always thought it was second ed because an old friend who was a big
D&D player/collector told me it was shortly after I bought it about 9 years
ago from a local bookstore. But it doesn't say 2nd edition and the only
copyright date I can find is '79 which was ten years before 2nd ed. Oh
well, this may not be what you're looking for after all. Just treat these
stats as their base and give them bonuses like Great Wyrms from here.
Steven
TheGameMaster
monster races, they have all the stats and goodies for Bahamut and Tiamat in
there, as well as information on Io, the cheif god of dragonkind for 2nd
edition.
Rod
Roger M. Wilcox
Sadly, amazon.com says that _Monster Mythology_ is also out-of-print.
--
rog...@ix.netcom.com (Roger M. Wilcox) -- also known as "Tracer"
purveyor of "the" Internet Stellar Database, at www.stellar-database.com
MSTie # 38808 | http://www.netcom.com/~rogermw ... now in EXTRA bold!
I'm sodium! <*> | "The Truth, as always, is more complicated than that"
Nephilim2038
rog...@ix.netcom.com (Roger M. Wilcox) wrote:
> Sadly, amazon.com says that _Monster Mythology_ is also out-of-print.
There are nine different people auctioning it off on ebay. It
doesn't seem to be one of those "must have at any price" things
like The Complete Book of Necromancers, so you should be able to
get one for a fairly reasonable price that way.
--
Jeff <jtho...@esker.com> "Float on a river, forever and ever, Emily"
David Sulger
> for Bahamut and Tiamat, tailored for SECOND EDITION rules?
Monster Mythology.
--Dave
Send e-mail to ds50.geo at yahoo.com
rog...@ix.netcom.com
Nephilim2038 <jtho...@esker.com> wrote:
> In article <3a40ed5f....@nntp.garlic.com>,
> rog...@ix.netcom.com (Roger M. Wilcox) wrote:
>
> > Sadly, amazon.com says that _Monster Mythology_ is also
> > out-of-print.
>
> There are nine different people auctioning it off on ebay. It
> doesn't seem to be one of those "must have at any price" things
> like The Complete Book of Necromancers, so you should be able to
> get one for a fairly reasonable price that way.
Hmmm ...
I just bit the bullet and got myself a copy of the new Forgotten Realms
Dragonomicon ESD. (Heck, it was only $2.95 plus sales tax, with no
shipping charges.) They give Bahamut as 175 h.p., Tiamat as 120 h.p.
(not including her heads), and both of them as 30 hit dice, AC -15, and
85% magic resistance.
Are the stats in _Monster Mythology_ for Bahamut and Tiamat different
from the stats in the _Dragonomicon_?
--
Roger M. Wilcox (rog...@ix.netcom.com) -- a.k.a. Tracer
purveyor of the Internet Stellar Database, www.stellar-database.com
I'm not flying fast, just orbiting low. Oh, and I'm sodium.
MSTie # 38808 | http://www.netcom.com/~rogermw ... now in EXTRA bold!
Ian R Malcomson
>Hmmm ...
>
>I just bit the bullet and got myself a copy of the new Forgotten Realms
>Dragonomicon ESD. (Heck, it was only $2.95 plus sales tax, with no
>shipping charges.) They give Bahamut as 175 h.p., Tiamat as 120 h.p.
>(not including her heads), and both of them as 30 hit dice, AC -15, and
>85% magic resistance.
>
>Are the stats in _Monster Mythology_ for Bahamut and Tiamat different
>from the stats in the _Dragonomicon_?
Yes. For a start, Monster Mythology provides statistics for Bahamut's
and Tiamat's avatars, rather than their stats in toto, since they are
treated as deities by the book. Also, taking Bahamut as an example:
Draconomicon Monster Mythology
Class/Level None Wiz 16/Pr 16
AC -15 -14
Hit Dice 30 22
Hit Points 175 176
Claw Damage 2d6 2d8+11
There are further differences. And I still say the Polyhedron versions,
presented as they were in standard MC format, with no "god complex"
issues, are the best 2nd Ed. versions....
rog...@ix.netcom.com
Ian R Malcomson <i...@domicus.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>taking Bahamut as an example:
>
> Draconomicon Monster Mythology
> Class/Level None Wiz 16/Pr 16
> AC -15 -14
> Hit Dice 30 22
> Hit Points 175 176
> Claw Damage 2d6 2d8+11
>
> There are further differences. And I still say the Polyhedron
> versions, presented as they were in standard MC format, with
> no "god complex" issues, are the best 2nd Ed. versions....
Are the Polyhedron versions available online somewhere, or will I
have to scrounge up a back-issue of Polyhedron magazine?
Qit el-Remel
"Steven Merritt" <smer...@startrekmail.com> wrote:
I thought I read somewhere that she was neutral evil.
Also, she's supposed to (according to Dragon 260 IIRC) have had a pit
fiend consort at one point. As pit fiends (devils/baatezu/whatever you
want to call the lawful fiends) are lawful evil, but Tiamat is supposed
to reside primarily in the Abyss, that would support the theory that
she's neutral evil.
--
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Qit el-Remel
> I've heard that a Forgotten Realms supplement called the
> _Dragonomicon_ had 2nd-edition stats for Bahamut and Tiamat,
> but according to Amazon.com, _Dragonomicon_ is out of print.
Doesn't mean that they can't get it for you; it just means it'll take
longer.
Also, some RPG stores sell out-of-print or used materials. One which
currently has the "Draconomicon" in stock is located here:
http://dfxwebs.com/Supplies/Forgotten%20Realms/
-Qit
--
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Bruce Grubb
<qitel...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>I thought I read somewhere that she was neutral evil.
>
>Also, she's supposed to (according to Dragon 260 IIRC) have had a pit
>fiend consort at one point. As pit fiends (devils/baatezu/whatever you
>want to call the lawful fiends) are lawful evil, but Tiamat is supposed
>to reside primarily in the Abyss, that would support the theory that
>she's neutral evil.
I have always read Tiamat as residing on the 1st plane of the Nine Hells
though 2nd edition threw out the idea of dieties residing on the plane of
their alignment with Hades (LN) being the ruler of Tartarus (NE IIRC).
This is all ignoring fact that the Planes of alignment idea is pretty screwed
up anyhow require dozens of kludges to make everything work right. Dragon
#101's For King and Country article provided much better system.
Ian R Malcomson
>Are the Polyhedron versions available online somewhere, or will I
>have to scrounge up a back-issue of Polyhedron magazine?
A back-issue scrounge, I'm afraid.
Ian R Malcomson
>I thought I read somewhere that she was neutral evil.
>
>Also, she's supposed to (according to Dragon 260 IIRC) have had a pit
>fiend consort at one point. As pit fiends (devils/baatezu/whatever you
>want to call the lawful fiends) are lawful evil, but Tiamat is supposed
>to reside primarily in the Abyss, that would support the theory that
>she's neutral evil.
Tiamat only resides primarily in the Abyss according to the
DragonLance/Takhisis connection. IIRC, the name "Abyss" on Krynn refers
to the Hell of other worlds.
Tiamat, her minions (the abishai, among others), etc. reside on Avernus,
the first tier of the Nine Hells. She's Lawful Evil.
Hugh Foster
> > > Where can I find "official" (or as-official-as-possible) stats
> > > for Bahamut and Tiamat, tailored for SECOND EDITION rules?
> > > 1st Edition B&T are way too weak when compared to run-of-the-mill
> > > 2nd Edition dragons, and the new 3rd Edition B&T are much too
> > > powerful.
>
They were in Dragon 272 for 3rd Edition, I can't find a 2nd ed
reference anywhere. You should be able to rack backwards from 3 to 2,
though?
--
Hugh Foster
-- NOTE new e-mail! --
hughf...@totalise.co.uk
http://www.gamestruth.com/Hugh/
Sat, 30 Dec 2000 12:26 GMT
Zdravko Ikica
>
> They were in Dragon 272 for 3rd Edition, I can't find a 2nd ed
> reference anywhere. You should be able to rack backwards from 3 to 2,
> though?
>
> --
I'm *WAAAY* behind, but in case nobody answered already, both Bahamut
and Tiamat stats for 2E can be found in "Monster Mythology" rulebook,
and they're way more powerful than their 1E variants.
Another 'world-specific' version of Tiamat can be found in FR's Powers &
Pantheons rulebook, in the Mulhorandi pantheon section (she's actualy an
Untheric deity on verge of joinig the merry Faerunian pantheon).
With best regards,
-- Zdravko
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