Native American themed character?
muskau
for a Native American themed character in a fantasy setting, and I've been
having trouble. On the surface Ranger seems ideal with the dual wielding
lending itself well to the 'dual tomahawk' style of fighting, but the spell
selection seems to turn the character more into a shaman than what I was
looking for.
So then I considered Barbarian, his increased speed, uncanny dodge and rage
seem like attributes that a Native American warrior might possess. But his
limited number of available feats would make it very hard to have a 'Dual
tomahawk' style of fighting except at high levels. And so I think my
character would then have to focus on the Spear.
Lastly, I considered Monk, with his increased speed, spell resistance, as
well as being able to fight unarmed or with Tomahawks(Handaxes) I thought it
was a long shot, but still worth consideration.
Also, are there any websites or books that go into more detail about Native
American weapons, clothes, as well as their Nomadic lifestyle? It just seems
quite hard to find the right information on many of these websites I have
been visiting.
Thank you for your time
- muskau
Quentin Stephens
news:4095347a$0$16606$5a62...@freenews.iinet.net.au:
> I have been trying to figure out what type of class would be a
> good choice for a Native American themed character in a fantasy
> setting
Try Fighter, and get the GM to allow you to trade the Medium and
Heavy Armour feats for other feats. Multiclass to Barbarian, Ranger,
or Druid as appropriate.
Matt Pillsbury
> I have been trying to figure out what type of class would be a good
> choice for a Native American themed character in a fantasy setting,
> and I've been having trouble. On the surface Ranger seems ideal
> with the dual wielding lending itself well to the 'dual tomahawk'
> style of fighting, but the spell selection seems to turn the
> character more into a shaman than what I was looking for.
Well, that's not necessarily a *terrible* thing, since shamanistic
abilities are entirely in-genre for that sort of character. Indeed,
they seem a bit more in-genre than a lot of the other source-material
for Rangers. But if you want to stay away for spellcasting...
> So then I considered Barbarian, his increased speed, uncanny dodge
> and rage seem like attributes that a Native American warrior might
> possess. But his limited number of available feats would make it
> very hard to have a 'Dual tomahawk' style of fighting except at high
> levels. And so I think my character would then have to focus on the
> Spear.
...go ahead and multiclass with Barbarian, which will delay and dilute
the spellcasting in favor of mobility and bad-assity.
> Lastly, I considered Monk, with his increased speed, spell
> resistance, as well as being able to fight unarmed or with
> Tomahawks(Handaxes) I thought it was a long shot, but still worth
> consideration.
The movie "Brotherhood of the Wolf" was uneven as hell, but featured a
cool portrayal of an Iroquois warrior who was pure D&D monk. You might
want to check it out.
[...]
--
Matt Pillsbury
pillsy[at]mac[dot]com
David Prokopetz
news:20040502182917...@mb-m15.aol.com...
> >From: "muskau" mus...@hotmail.com
>
> First off all human beings on the North American and South American
continents
> migrated from Asia, Europe or Africa. Hence anyone born here can be called
a
> Native American.
Somebody's been eating Politically-Correctios for breakfast. ;)
- Sir Bob.
Sorcier
>>From: "muskau" mus...@hotmail.com
>
> First off all human beings on the North American and South American continents
> migrated from Asia, Europe or Africa. Hence anyone born here can be called a
> Native American.
So what do _you_ call the ones descended from those who got here on
foot rather than by sea or air?
Todd Bradley
> So what do _you_ call the ones descended from those who got here on
> foot rather than by sea or air?
Americans. "Native Americans" ironically has a different meaning that
"native-born American". At least in the USA.
Todd.
William Burke
Sorcier <sNoEr...@cavtel.net> wrote:
> So what do _you_ call the ones descended from those who got here on
> foot rather than by sea or air?
Are you saying that I can reset my ethnic identification by flying from
California to Russia and walking across the Bering Strait?
(that would explain why people keep trying to do it.)
--p
Todd Bradley
> I have been trying to figure out what type of class would be a good choice
> for a Native American themed character in a fantasy setting, and I've been
> having trouble.
Not to get overly pedantic, but just what kind of Native American are
you thinking of? They run the gamut of interests, personal backgrounds,
abilities, etc., just like anyone else. Are you going for the American
stereotype "Indian" from the movies? In other words, what sets a
"Native American" apart from other people in your mind? I think you're
kinda mixing metaphors. Character classes in D&D are more akin to
occupations in the real world, not to ethnicity.
Todd.
David Prokopetz
news:passengerpigeon-04...@news.la.sbcglobal.net...
> In article <Qxflc.21$oO4....@news.uswest.net>,
> Sorcier <sNoEr...@cavtel.net> wrote:
>
> > So what do _you_ call the ones descended from those who got here on
> > foot rather than by sea or air?
>
> Are you saying that I can reset my ethnic identification by flying from
> California to Russia and walking across the Bering Strait?
Are you suggesting that aboriginal Americans have no ethnic identity? ;)
- Sir Bob.
Robert Singers
Hardly what with "technically barbarians".
--
Rob Singers
"All your Ron are belong to us"
Credo Elvem ipsum etiam vivere
David Prokopetz
news:Xns94DE7E1E24528rsingers@IP-Hidden...
> Out from under a rock popped David Prokopetz and said
>
> > "Keifer0999" <keife...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
> > news:20040502182917...@mb-m15.aol.com...
> >> >From: "muskau" mus...@hotmail.com
> >>
> >> First off all human beings on the North American and South American
> >> continents migrated from Asia, Europe or Africa. Hence anyone born here
> >> can be called a Native American.
> >
> > Somebody's been eating Politically-Correctios for breakfast. ;)
>
> Hardly what with "technically barbarians".
I've found that the impulse to be politically correct does not necessarily
imply the actual ability to make a proper go of it.
- Sir Bob.
Robert Singers
> I've found that the impulse to be politically correct does not
> necessarily imply the actual ability to make a proper go of it.
Yes that's true. I'm currently castigating an idiot in nz.soc.maori for
just that reason.
Christopher Adams
> I have been trying to figure out what type of class would be a good
> choice for a Native American themed character in a fantasy setting, and
> I've been having trouble.
If you're talking about a stereotypically "totemic" Native American warrior,
then I suggest you look at the variant totem barbarians in Unearthed Arcana and
the totem warriors in Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed.
--
Christopher Adams
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nath Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you
understand?
You're not a bad person. You're a terrific person. You're my favorite person.
But every once in a while you just can be a real cunt.
- Bill
Syuivel
Personally, I think Monk would be a good idea. The monk class does not
necessarily mean "You are a monk!", It just means you Have monk-like
abilities and skills. This would be the perfect class for a native
american in my opinion with possibly a multi-class of barbarian or
druid at around level 10.
Keifer0999
>
>The movie "Brotherhood of the Wolf" was uneven as hell, but featured a
>cool portrayal of an Iroquois warrior who was pure D&D monk. You might
>want to check it out.
The French have a martial art called Savate . To play that character I'd just
give him Improved Unarmed Combat or whatever its called, not make him a monk.
If anything, he was more druid...
Keifer0999
>Somebody's been eating Politically-Correctios for breakfast. ;)
>
> - Sir Bob.
>
Lol....calling American Indians et.al. Native Americans is the politically
correct term. I'm the opposite...call them by their real names....Apache,
Cherokee, Iroquois, Mayan, Incan whatever.
Rupert Boleyn
<rsin...@finger.hotmail.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:
> Out from under a rock popped David Prokopetz and said
>
> > I've found that the impulse to be politically correct does not
> > necessarily imply the actual ability to make a proper go of it.
>
> Yes that's true. I'm currently castigating an idiot in nz.soc.maori for
> just that reason.
Hmm. Another group I'll now have to post in.
--
Rupert Boleyn <rbo...@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
James Quick
keife...@aol.comnospam (Keifer0999) wrote:
> >From: "David Prokopetz" sir...@penguinking.com
>
> >Somebody's been eating Politically-Correctios for breakfast. ;)
>
> Lol....calling American Indians et.al. Native Americans is the politically
> correct term. I'm the opposite...call them by their real names....Apache,
> Cherokee, Iroquois, Mayan, Incan whatever.
And what would you call an old girlfriend of mine who was, iirc,
3/8ths irish, 1/8th algonquin, 2/8ths Sioux, 1/8, Kiowa, and 1/8th
Ojibwa?
I'll tell you what term she used to describe herself after you answer.
--
James Quick [][][] jamesqu...@hotmail.com
"I dislike the term Obsessive-Compulsive. I prefer to be called
Compulsive-Obsessive."
"Why is that?"
"It's in alphabetical order."
Sorcier
And when you are speaking of the collective peoples of a
certain hemisphere, continent, or geographic region?
Really, Keif, this is akin to saying "I don't call them Europeans!
I call them by their REAL names: German, British, French, whatever."
Sorcier
> Sorcier wrote:
>
>> So what do _you_ call the ones descended from those who got here on
>> foot rather than by sea or air?
>
>
> Americans.
What do _you_ call the ones descended from those who got here by sea
or air?
> "Native Americans" ironically has a different meaning that
> "native-born American".
True.
Sort of.
Almost all "Native Americans" are "native-born American", but not
vice versa.
Sorcier
> In article <Qxflc.21$oO4....@news.uswest.net>,
> Sorcier <sNoEr...@cavtel.net> wrote:
>
>
>>So what do _you_ call the ones descended from those who got here on
>>foot rather than by sea or air?
>
> Are you saying that I can reset my ethnic identification by flying from
> California to Russia and walking across the Bering Strait?
No, I'm saying that a sufficient period of geographic isolation
will result in differences in ethnic identity.
Keifer0999
>And what would you call an old girlfriend of mine who was, iirc,
>3/8ths irish, 1/8th algonquin, 2/8ths Sioux, 1/8, Kiowa, and 1/8th
>Ojibwa?
>
>I'll tell you what term she used to describe herself after you answer.
>
I'ad ask what her ethnicity was and politley nod.
Keifer0999
>Date: 5/3/2004 12:30 AM Easte
>
>Really, Keif, this is akin to saying "I don't call them Europeans!
>I call them by their REAL names: German, British, French, whatever."
>
When have you ever seen people of European descent called by their ethnicity?
D.J.
Todd Bradley <to...@toddbradley.com> wrote:
] Americans. "Native Americans" ironically has a different meaning that
It depends on whom you ask.
Some of my ancestors are Native Americans, some of my ancestorsare
from Europe. I've never heard the term 'Native Americans' being used
of someone born here, of European descent.
JimP.
--
djim70 at tyhe cableone dot net. Disclaimer: Standard.
My Web pages Updated:
http://www.drivein-jim.net/ April 7, 2004:
http://crestar.drivein-jim.net/new.html April 7, 2004
hikaru
"muskau" <mus...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4095347a$0$16606$5a62...@freenews.iinet.net.au...
> for a Native American themed character in a fantasy setting, and I've been
> having trouble. On the surface Ranger seems ideal with the dual wielding
> lending itself well to the 'dual tomahawk' style of fighting, but the
spell
> selection seems to turn the character more into a shaman than what I was
> looking for.
>
start ranger, and multiclass into fighter as appropriate. or, try the arcana
unearthed totem warrior- very American Indian flavored.
--
Trav
hood...@KODT.net
To reply, replace 'KODT' with 'rfci'.
11/Sept/01: Never forget. Never forgive.
"You ask, what is our policy? I will say: it is to wage war, by sea, land
and air, and with all our might. . . . You ask, what is our aim? I can
answer in one word: victory. . . . Victory at all costs, victory in spite of
all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without
victory there is no survival!"
Winston Churchill
Elfbard
>> Lol....calling American Indians et.al. Native Americans is the politically
>> correct term. I'm the opposite...call them by their real names....Apache,
>> Cherokee, Iroquois, Mayan, Incan whatever.
>
>And what would you call an old girlfriend of mine who was, iirc,
>3/8ths irish, 1/8th algonquin, 2/8ths Sioux, 1/8, Kiowa, and 1/8th
>Ojibwa?
Diverse? ;p
Christopher Adams
Delicious, probably. Mmm, lovely miscegenation.
Matt Pillsbury
> >From: Matt Pillsbury m...@seesig.com
> >The movie "Brotherhood of the Wolf" was uneven as hell, but
> >featured a cool portrayal of an Iroquois warrior who was pure D&D
> >monk. You might want to check it out.
> The French have a martial art called Savate .
I've heard of it, but I don't know enough about it to know if the
character from the movie was using it.
> To play that character I'd just give him Improved Unarmed Combat or
> whatever its called, not make him a monk. If anything, he was more
> druid...
No one in the movie wore armor for historic (or generic) reasons, but
mobile, tough martial artists who use simple weapons are usually good
fits for monks. He didn't shapeshift or cast spells or anything.
The Black Guardian
>>> Somebody's been eating Politically-Correctios for breakfast. ;)
>>
>> correct term. I'm the opposite...call them by their real names....Apache,
>> Cherokee, Iroquois, Mayan, Incan whatever.
>
> And when you are speaking of the collective peoples of a
> certain hemisphere, continent, or geographic region?
>
> Really, Keif, this is akin to saying "I don't call them Europeans!
> I call them by their REAL names: German, British, French, whatever."
He would be right then. "Europeans" doesn't properly describe them. You
may as well just call them all Terrans.
--
-=[ The BlakGard ]=-
"Somewhere there's danger;
somewhere there's injustice,
and somewhere else the tea is getting cold!"
First Prophet of Kaos
wrote:
>I have been trying to figure out what type of class would be a good choice
>for a Native American themed character in a fantasy setting, and I've been
>having trouble. On the surface Ranger seems ideal with the dual wielding
>lending itself well to the 'dual tomahawk' style of fighting, but the spell
>selection seems to turn the character more into a shaman than what I was
>looking for.
>
>So then I considered Barbarian, his increased speed, uncanny dodge and rage
>seem like attributes that a Native American warrior might possess. But his
>limited number of available feats would make it very hard to have a 'Dual
>tomahawk' style of fighting except at high levels. And so I think my
>character would then have to focus on the Spear.
One could always multiclass; start with ranger, switch to barbarian
(or even fighter) before you get too much 'shaman-feel' for your
tastes.
--
When in doubt, RTFM.
(Unless it's MOO3)
First Prophet of Kaos
wrote:
>>From: "muskau" mus...@hotmail.com
>
>First off all human beings on the North American and South American continents
>migrated from Asia, Europe or Africa. Hence anyone born here can be called a
>Native American.
>In many Indian legends the heroes were attributed magical powers. So Ranger is
>the perfect class.
>
>Bear in mind that Indians were not great bowmen. And that ritual torture and
>slavery were considered ok by many tribes. So stick a rank or two into
>Knowledge Torture if you really want to be accurate.
Or, rather, if you want to emphasize the more brutal and savage
elements.
First Prophet of Kaos
wrote:
Quite often, when the bigots have run out of non-europeans to vent
their diseased venom apon. The major distinctions seem to be western
vs eastern europe, and the various lines drawn across the British
Isles.
First Prophet of Kaos
wrote:
>Keifer0999 wrote:
>
>>>From: "muskau" mus...@hotmail.com
>>
>> First off all human beings on the North American and South American continents
>> migrated from Asia, Europe or Africa. Hence anyone born here can be called a
>> Native American.
>
>So what do _you_ call the ones descended from those who got here on
>foot rather than by sea or air?
Seeing as I'm not involved in the anthropological studies that require
further distinction, I find that "people" usually suffices.
Regardless of arrival method.
First Prophet of Kaos
>>From: "muskau" mus...@hotmail.com
>
>First off all human beings on the North American and South American continents
>migrated from Asia, Europe or Africa. Hence anyone born here can be called a
>Native American.
Let's stick to the common toungue, and leave the anthropological
pedantery for a more appropriate discussion.
>In many Indian legends the heroes were attributed magical powers. So Ranger is
>the perfect class.
>
>Bear in mind that Indians were not great bowmen. And that ritual torture and
>slavery were considered ok by many tribes. So stick a rank or two into
>Knowledge Torture if you really want to be accurate.
Let's also not confuse 'emphasizing the brutal' with accuracy.
Pointing out that it fits is sufficient.
First Prophet of Kaos
<sir...@penguinking.com> wrote:
>"William Burke" <passeng...@email.com> wrote in message
>news:passengerpigeon-04...@news.la.sbcglobal.net...
>> In article <Qxflc.21$oO4....@news.uswest.net>,
>> Sorcier <sNoEr...@cavtel.net> wrote:
>>
>> > So what do _you_ call the ones descended from those who got here on
>> > foot rather than by sea or air?
>>
>> Are you saying that I can reset my ethnic identification by flying from
>> California to Russia and walking across the Bering Strait?
>
>Are you suggesting that aboriginal Americans have no ethnic identity? ;)
In an ideal world, 'ethnic identity' would be a source of trivial
interest rather than the religion unto itself that many seem to make
of it.
David Prokopetz
news:m2ekq26...@seesig.com...
> keife...@aol.comnospam (Keifer0999) writes:
>
> > >From: Matt Pillsbury m...@seesig.com
>
> > >The movie "Brotherhood of the Wolf" was uneven as hell, but
> > >featured a cool portrayal of an Iroquois warrior who was pure D&D
> > >monk. You might want to check it out.
>
> > The French have a martial art called Savate .
>
> I've heard of it, but I don't know enough about it to know if the
> character from the movie was using it.
Well, he certainly wasn't using Native American martial arts - I'm pretty
sure I saw him punching people, and Native Americans almost universally
didn't punch (all of their martial arts were weapon styles, or focused
exclusively on grappling).
- Sir Bob.
Ian R Malcomson
<sNoEr...@cavtel.net> writes
British??? Sheesh - call a Scot "British" and see how much it hurts ;)
And I'm English, so :P
--
Ian R Malcomson
Ian R Malcomson
<keife...@aol.comnospam> writes
Here. In England. Lots. Although usually it only runs as far as
"bloody Southerners" (who are all French, of course).
--
Ian R Malcomson
First Prophet of Kaos
<hik...@diespamdie.rfci.net> wrote:
>"muskau" <mus...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:4095347a$0$16606$5a62...@freenews.iinet.net.au...
>> I have been trying to figure out what type of class would be a good choice
>> for a Native American themed character in a fantasy setting, and I've been
>> having trouble. On the surface Ranger seems ideal with the dual wielding
>> lending itself well to the 'dual tomahawk' style of fighting, but the
>spell
>> selection seems to turn the character more into a shaman than what I was
>> looking for.
>>
>
>start ranger, and multiclass into fighter as appropriate. or, try the arcana
>unearthed totem warrior- very American Indian flavored.
I was under the impression that AU was geared to a (slight but still
noticable) higher powerlevel, making such a move... unweildy.
James Quick
keife...@aol.comnospam (Keifer0999) wrote:
COp out, since it was you who claimed you would use tribal names, She
called herself a mutt, by the way. Best damn-looking mutt I ever saw.
Serok4242
> I have been trying to figure out what type of class would be a good choice
> for a Native American themed character in a fantasy setting, and I've been
> having trouble. On the surface Ranger seems ideal with the dual wielding
> lending itself well to the 'dual tomahawk' style of fighting, but the
spell
> selection seems to turn the character more into a shaman than what I was
> looking for.
>
rage
> seem like attributes that a Native American warrior might possess. But his
> limited number of available feats would make it very hard to have a 'Dual
> tomahawk' style of fighting except at high levels. And so I think my
> character would then have to focus on the Spear.
>
> well as being able to fight unarmed or with Tomahawks(Handaxes) I thought
it
> was a long shot, but still worth consideration.
>
> Also, are there any websites or books that go into more detail about
Native
> American weapons, clothes, as well as their Nomadic lifestyle? It just
seems
> quite hard to find the right information on many of these websites I have
> been visiting.
>
> Thank you for your time
>
> - muskau
I would personally go with a combination of ranger/barbarian if you are
going warrior route
serok
Jay Knioum
> I have been trying to figure out what type of class would be a good choice
> for a Native American themed character in a fantasy setting, and I've been
> having trouble.
[snip]
> Also, are there any websites or books that go into more detail about Native
> American weapons, clothes, as well as their Nomadic lifestyle? It just seems
> quite hard to find the right information on many of these websites I have
> been visiting.
About.com has a few links you might check out, particularly in their
American History section.
I also recommend books such as "Black Elk Speaks" to get a feel for
some of the spirituality and point of view of certain Native Americans
(in this case, Oglala Sioux).
As others have pointed out, "Native American" is a rather broad term
for a wide variety of peoples in various time periods encompassing
everything from the Eskimo to the Aztec and many points in between.
The typical celluloid image of the Native American involves
wind-swept, grassy plains, rocky badlands, herds of buffalo, feather
headdresses, tomahawks, peace pipes and "what do you mean "we,"
kemosabi?"
So, I guess it depends on what you're going for. Really, we're talking
about cultures of people, not classes, so you could tailor just about
any class and many PrCs to suit this type of character.
For example, you could do a Paladin by building a light-armored
spirit-warrior type of character, who calls upon the powers of his
ancestors for healing, defense, and ferretting out evil. Calling a
special mount from the spirit world dovetails with this flavor very
well.
In summary, perhaps you shouldn't let the culture dictate the class of
character to play, but choose your class first, and tailor it to the
"Native American" cultural flavor that you're after.
--
Jay Knioum
The Mad Afro
Todd Bradley
> When have you ever seen people of European descent called by their ethnicity?
Good point. My people aren't from the Caucasus, so why do they keep
calling me Caucasian?
Todd.
Keith Davies
UA is not necessarily balanced; it's a book of ideas and rules mods that
could be applied to a game. It's very difficult to write something like
that in a balanced way because a lot will depend on the group dynamics.
There *are* some powerful things in there, but IIRC the totem warrior
isn't unduly powerful. OTOH, I wasn't particularly interested in it
when I read through that section so I didn't really examine it.
(Just so you know, I happen to like UA quite a bit and will be using
some fairly large chunks of it IMC; weight above accordingly.)
Keith
--
Keith Davies "Your ability to bang your head against
keith....@kjdavies.org reality in the hope that reality will
crack first is impressive, but futile"
-- Geoffrey Brent, rec.games.frp.dnd
Sorcier
Well, I grew up in an Irish family.
And I've met plenty of folk who described themeselves as Spanish.
It's extremely common.
What basement do you live in that you haven't heard it done? ;)
And just what the Hell does Caucasian mean if Native American
is meaningless?
Sorcier
Nah, bad point from Keif, good one from you.
Plenty of Euro's are described by ethnicity.
I agree with your Caucasus claim, but that's parallel to saying
"Why call them Native Americans? They aren't from American!"
So it's not a defense of Keif's lack of a position.
IOW, what are _are_ your people, Todd?
Sorcier
> Sorcier wrote:
>
>>>>Somebody's been eating Politically-Correctios for breakfast. ;)
>>>
>>>Lol....calling American Indians et.al. Native Americans is the politically
>>>correct term. I'm the opposite...call them by their real names....Apache,
>>>Cherokee, Iroquois, Mayan, Incan whatever.
>>
>>And when you are speaking of the collective peoples of a
>>certain hemisphere, continent, or geographic region?
>>
>>Really, Keif, this is akin to saying "I don't call them Europeans!
>>I call them by their REAL names: German, British, French, whatever."
>
>
> He would be right then. "Europeans" doesn't properly describe them. You
> may as well just call them all Terrans.
Europeans describes them as well as Africans describes Africans,
or Asians describes Asians.
You arguement boils down to "calling a rose a flower isn't an
adequate description as a rose is not identical to all other flowers."
Seriously, I don't see Euro's up in arms about being called Euro's,
or Africans griping about being called Africans. So where exactly
is the flaw in calling an American an American?
Going back to typing:
Terran says something.
European says more.
French says even more.
That's how collective descriptions work folks.
Sorcier
>
>> Really, Keif, this is akin to saying "I don't call them Europeans!
>> I call them by their REAL names: German, British, French, whatever."
>
> British??? Sheesh - call a Scot "British" and see how much it hurts ;)
> And I'm English, so :P
There are self-described British out there.
Admitted that my "British" relatives are "Irish" (who don't
consider themselves Brits) and "English" (who don't mind being
called "British" at all. Though they usually reserve that as
a political rather than ethnic term.)
Sorcier
> Todd Bradley <to...@toddbradley.com> wrote:
> ] Americans. "Native Americans" ironically has a different meaning that
> ] "native-born American". At least in the USA.
>
> It depends on whom you ask.
>
> Some of my ancestors are Native Americans, some of my ancestorsare
> from Europe. I've never heard the term 'Native Americans' being used
> of someone born here, of European descent.
I have, but I live in the South so it's likely a redneck
patriotic thing.
Though distinctions between establihed American families and even
the first born of immigrant families have been overly common in
US history. I suppose you have to be here long enough to lose
the accent and much of the culture to be "American" as a
first description.
Sorcier
You are _never_ involved in a discussion where differentiating
an "indigenous" people is required?
If you do become involved in such a conversation what labels do
you apply?
Really, the intellectual dishonesty in this thread is mind boggling.
You all seem so adverse to typing that you jump through
rather convoluted hoops to avoid it.
Okay, so I'll assume you would all like to abolish the US Bureau
of Indian Affairs, not to mention the NAACP.
Or should I assume you are all hypocrites who want to sound
"sensitive" but don't want to think through the consequences?
Matt Pillsbury
> "Matt Pillsbury" <m...@seesig.com> wrote in message
> news:m2ekq26...@seesig.com...
> > keife...@aol.comnospam (Keifer0999) writes:
> > >From: Matt Pillsbury m...@seesig.com
> > > >The movie "Brotherhood of the Wolf" was uneven as hell, but
> > > >featured a cool portrayal of an Iroquois warrior who was pure
> > > >D&D monk. You might want to check it out.
> > > The French have a martial art called Savate .
> > I've heard of it, but I don't know enough about it to know if the
> > character from the movie was using it.
> Well, he certainly wasn't using Native American martial arts - I'm
> pretty sure I saw him punching people,
I'm pretty sure I saw that too.
> and Native Americans almost universally didn't punch (all of their
> martial arts were weapon styles, or focused exclusively on
> grappling).
Interesting. I sort of got the impression that he was cleaving to the
"outsider who knows kung fu" stereotype; it never occurred to me that
he might have learned his moves from the French. OTOH, he was one of
many great characters who were trapped in a not-so-great movie.
Sorcier
> On Mon, 03 May 2004 04:28:04 -0600, First Prophet of Kaos <ka...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 3 May 2004 01:50:42 -0400, "hikaru"
>><hik...@diespamdie.rfci.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>start ranger, and multiclass into fighter as appropriate. or, try the
>>>arcana unearthed totem warrior- very American Indian flavored.
>>
>>I was under the impression that AU was geared to a (slight but still
>>noticable) higher powerlevel, making such a move... unweildy.
>
>
> UA is not necessarily balanced; it's a book of ideas and rules mods that
> could be applied to a game. It's very difficult to write something like
> that in a balanced way because a lot will depend on the group dynamics.
AU however is a replacment PHB, that looks to be internally balanced but
overpowered compared to the PHB.
I think Hikaru and Kaos were speaking of AU, not the UA
totemic Barbarian options.
Wayne Shaw
>>From: "muskau" mus...@hotmail.com
>
>First off all human beings on the North American and South American continents
>migrated from Asia, Europe or Africa. Hence anyone born here can be called a
>Native American.
Yeah, like it's real useful to destroy a descriptive term that way.
Wayne Shaw
wrote:
>>From: "David Prokopetz" sir...@penguinking.com
>
>>Somebody's been eating Politically-Correctios for breakfast. ;)
>>
>> - Sir Bob.
>>
>
>Lol....calling American Indians et.al. Native Americans is the politically
>correct term. I'm the opposite...call them by their real names....Apache,
>Cherokee, Iroquois, Mayan, Incan whatever.
Do you similarly object to calling the native inhabitants of Asia
Asians? After all, if we're to believe the ideas presented in current
human evolutionary theory _they_ didn't start there, either.
Wayne Shaw
<JamesQu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>called herself a mutt, by the way. Best damn-looking mutt I ever saw.
Not uncommon result, actually. If you land it right, taking two very
distinct ethnicities and blending them can produce dynamite results.
Probably the single most striking woman I ever met was a
Norwegian/Japanese hybrid.
Wayne Shaw
wrote:
>>From: Sorcier sNoEr...@cavtel.net
>>Date: 5/3/2004 12:30 AM Easte
>
>>
>>Really, Keif, this is akin to saying "I don't call them Europeans!
>>I call them by their REAL names: German, British, French, whatever."
>>
>
>When have you ever seen people of European descent called by their ethnicity?
Frequently. Usually with the appendage "Anglo" (i.e.
"Anglo-European") but that's because of context.
Wayne Shaw
<passeng...@email.com> wrote:
>In article <Qxflc.21$oO4....@news.uswest.net>,
> Sorcier <sNoEr...@cavtel.net> wrote:
>
>> So what do _you_ call the ones descended from those who got here on
>> foot rather than by sea or air?
>
>Are you saying that I can reset my ethnic identification by flying from
>California to Russia and walking across the Bering Strait?
Read what he said again. Walk there. Then wait a thousand years or
so for ethnic distinction to set in.
Wayne Shaw
Given people make about as much group significance out of where they
live as who they are in many cases, I think that's a world without
humans in it.
Wayne Shaw
There's some claims to that, but having played in an AU campaign, I
see no signs of it in play. At most combining some of the AU
spellcasters with regular D&D spell selection might be a bit much, but
the non-spellcasting classes don't seem any more powerful than the D&D
set to me.
Wayne Shaw
<keith....@kjdavies.org> wrote:
>On Mon, 03 May 2004 04:28:04 -0600, First Prophet of Kaos <ka...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>> On Mon, 3 May 2004 01:50:42 -0400, "hikaru"
>><hik...@diespamdie.rfci.net> wrote:
>>
>>>start ranger, and multiclass into fighter as appropriate. or, try the
>>>arcana unearthed totem warrior- very American Indian flavored.
>>
>> I was under the impression that AU was geared to a (slight but still
>> noticable) higher powerlevel, making such a move... unweildy.
>
>UA is not necessarily balanced; it's a book of ideas and rules mods that
Kaos didn't say UA; that AU is not an accident.
Keith Davies
Yeah, that's what the message said. I was thinking the Totem Barbarian
variants from UA... and I agree with you on the balance in AU.
I need to either learn to read better, or wait until I wake up.
Keith Davies
I know; I was thinking 'totem barbarian' variants from UA, not totem
warrior. Too early, easily confused.
Robert Singers
> Seriously, I don't see Euro's up in arms about being called Euro's,
> or Africans griping about being called Africans. So where exactly
> is the flaw in calling an American an American?
It is seriously annoying here in NZ to be called a European when my family
has been in the country since 1846. On the other hand I'm also annoyed to
be called a Pakeha which is a Maori word with offensive conotations (which
the PC brigade try to ignore).
--
Rob Singers
"All your Ron are belong to us"
Credo Elvem ipsum etiam vivere
Robert Singers
> Really, the intellectual dishonesty in this thread is mind boggling.
ha. You should see the thread in nz.soc.maori where Tarla (an merkin
import) is claiming that it's a privilage for Maori to speak their own
language and not a right. However freedom of speech and religion are
rights. She's also attempted to use the same strawman for five posts with
me saying "that's a strawman".
Keith Davies
> Out from under a rock popped Sorcier and said
>
>> Seriously, I don't see Euro's up in arms about being called Euro's,
>> or Africans griping about being called Africans. So where exactly
>> is the flaw in calling an American an American?
>
> It is seriously annoying here in NZ to be called a European when my
> family has been in the country since 1846. On the other hand I'm also
> annoyed to be called a Pakeha which is a Maori word with offensive
> conotations (which the PC brigade try to ignore).
It doesn't surprise me; they seem to believe that it's only if you're
white, male, or both you can be politically incorrect. Everyone else's
prejudices and such are just *fine*, since they're picked on.
Personally, I try to ignore them. I don't go out of my way to offend
people, but I'm too lazy to try to find the 'correct' way to refer to
someone. If it *matters*, I'll ask; so far it hasn't mattered.
I attended a private school for a time when I was younger; I met a
number of people from all over the world. I don't think *anyone* ever
described Miles as 'African-American', he was *black*. IIRC he actually
took offense at being called African-American; he was Canadian. Jimmy
was Chinese, Derek's parents were Japanese IIRC (he was born and grew up
in Vancouver, IIRC), and so on.
I refuse to hunt around for 'more polite' things to call people. If I'm
trying to describe someone, I use short, easily-understood words rather
than 'PC-term-of-the-week'. Anyone else notice they only last a while
before they expire, and a new term has to be found?
If someone has a preference, I'll happily use it[1]. Short of that,
I'll use purely descriptive -- and as accurate as I can -- terms. Miles
was a 'tall skinny black man', Jimmy was a 'small Chinese kid', Derek
was 'Japanese-looking' (since I knew that he only *looked* Japanese but
considered himself Canadian). My kids are both half-Japanese; if it
comes up that's how they'll be described [just for laughs, my wife
Yumiko has the roundest eyes in the family].
[1] George Carlin wrote in one of his books (and has probably said on
stage) something like "I'll call people whatever they want to be
called. If someone wants to be referred to as an 'overweight
African-American homosexual', that's fine by me; when it comes up
that's what I'll call him. If he prefers 'fat nigger cocksucker',
that's fine be me too."
Gah, political correctness tends to offend me.
Robert Singers
> [1] George Carlin wrote in one of his books (and has probably said on
> stage) something like "I'll call people whatever they want to be
> called. If someone wants to be referred to as an 'overweight
> African-American homosexual', that's fine by me; when it comes up
> that's what I'll call him. If he prefers 'fat nigger cocksucker',
> that's fine be me too."
Yep that's pretty much my philosophy.
Rupert Boleyn
> Out from under a rock popped Sorcier and said
>
> > Seriously, I don't see Euro's up in arms about being called Euro's,
> > or Africans griping about being called Africans. So where exactly
> > is the flaw in calling an American an American?
>
> It is seriously annoying here in NZ to be called a European when my family
> has been in the country since 1846. On the other hand I'm also annoyed to
> be called a Pakeha which is a Maori word with offensive conotations (which
> the PC brigade try to ignore).
Just how offensivce it is depends on the iwi of the guy using it, BTW.
It's funny how the PC brigade take the least offensive meaning,
though. My thought is that if the Maori are allowed to use their
tradional word for us, surely we can use a traditional English word
for them - something like 'abo' or 'darkie', perhaps. Seems fair.
Alternatively, we can use their word for themselves, and they can use
our word for ourselves.
My family (either side) hasn't been here quite as long as yours, but
my father's family was in Banks Peninsula long enough ago that they
ran the first post-office and general store there (in Little Akaloa)
150+ years ago.
--
Rupert Boleyn <rbo...@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
Rupert Boleyn
<rsin...@finger.hotmail.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:
> Out from under a rock popped Sorcier and said
>
> > Really, the intellectual dishonesty in this thread is mind boggling.
>
> ha. You should see the thread in nz.soc.maori where Tarla (an merkin
> import) is claiming that it's a privilage for Maori to speak their own
> language and not a right. However freedom of speech and religion are
> rights. She's also attempted to use the same strawman for five posts with
> me saying "that's a strawman".
I find that sort of crap coming from 'Mercans and Aussies to be
exceedingly irritating. Lectures on how to 'deal with' Maori from them
also irritate.
Robert Singers
> I find that sort of crap coming from 'Mercans and Aussies to be
> exceedingly irritating. Lectures on how to 'deal with' Maori from them
> also irritate.
Actually the worst offender in NZSM is a Canadian by the name of John
Baglow who does the whole neo-colonialist friendly white man crap.
Apparently he's studying Sociology or Soc Anthro which doesn't say much for
the state of either discipline in Canadian Universities if it's true.
Rupert Boleyn
<keith....@kjdavies.org> carved upon a tablet of ether:
> It doesn't surprise me; they seem to believe that it's only if you're
> white, male, or both you can be politically incorrect. Everyone else's
> prejudices and such are just *fine*, since they're picked on.
It's a fairly common belief in the PC brigade that Maori can't be
racist, and the gay/lesbian can't be sexist. Only the majority can
practise discrimination, you see. They also maintain that women are a
minority group.
Rupert Boleyn
<rsin...@finger.hotmail.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:
> Out from under a rock popped Rupert Boleyn and said
>
> > I find that sort of crap coming from 'Mercans and Aussies to be
> > exceedingly irritating. Lectures on how to 'deal with' Maori from them
> > also irritate.
>
> Actually the worst offender in NZSM is a Canadian by the name of John
> Baglow who does the whole neo-colonialist friendly white man crap.
> Apparently he's studying Sociology or Soc Anthro which doesn't say much for
> the state of either discipline in Canadian Universities if it's true.
Gods. It's not like the real state of affiars isn't stuffed up enough
without adding bullshit to the mess. You can have NZSM too, I think.
Robert Singers
> Just how offensivce it is depends on the iwi of the guy using it, BTW.
> It's funny how the PC brigade take the least offensive meaning,
> though. My thought is that if the Maori are allowed to use their
> tradional word for us, surely we can use a traditional English word
> for them - something like 'abo' or 'darkie', perhaps. Seems fair.
Well none of the Maori I'm related too or whose homes or Maraes I've been
invited to will use it to discribe me so I use that as my benchmark.
> Alternatively, we can use their word for themselves, and they can use
> our word for ourselves.
Maori roughly means people and more correctly they should be refered to
by Iwi (where known). However most of the time distinguishing based on
colour for those people whose bones are buried here is irrelevant and
just complicates things.
> My family (either side) hasn't been here quite as long as yours, but
> my father's family was in Banks Peninsula long enough ago that they
> ran the first post-office and general store there (in Little Akaloa)
> 150+ years ago.
Isn't it all Frenchies down there?
Rupert Boleyn
<rsin...@finger.hotmail.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:
> > My family (either side) hasn't been here quite as long as yours, but
> > my father's family was in Banks Peninsula long enough ago that they
> > ran the first post-office and general store there (in Little Akaloa)
> > 150+ years ago.
>
> Isn't it all Frenchies down there?
That's Akaroa (the other side of the pensinsula) and, no they are not
French. Their ancestors may have come from France, but due to the
British warship getting to Akaroa before the colony ship and an
English court being in session three days before the Frogs landed they
were British subjects if they chose to settle. Lot of French place
names and family names in the area though.
William Burke
Wayne Shaw <sh...@caprica.com> wrote:
He said descended.
Are you saying that I can reset my son's ethnic identification, etc.
etc.?
--p
smithdoerr
"Rupert Boleyn" <rbo...@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:4gnd9097nnvnjmafc...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 03 May 2004 22:13:20 GMT, Keith Davies
> <keith....@kjdavies.org> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
> > It doesn't surprise me; they seem to believe that it's only if you're
> > white, male, or both you can be politically incorrect. Everyone else's
> > prejudices and such are just *fine*, since they're picked on.
>
> It's a fairly common belief in the PC brigade that Maori can't be
> racist, and the gay/lesbian can't be sexist. Only the majority can
> practise discrimination, you see.
Actually that's more or less true. Anyone can have
racist/sexist/religious/whatever prejudices but you really have to be in a
position of power in order to practice discrimination, at least to a degree
that really matters. I'm sure many minorities would discriminate more often
if they could, they just don't have the opportunities :)
> They also maintain that women are a
> minority group.
I don't know what the demographics are like in NZ but in the US the majority
of political, management, police, and other positions of authority are held
by males making females a minority in positions of power.
--
-smithdoerr
Robert Singers
> Actually that's more or less true. Anyone can have
> racist/sexist/religious/whatever prejudices but you really have to be
> in a position of power in order to practice discrimination, at least
> to a degree that really matters. I'm sure many minorities would
> discriminate more often if they could, they just don't have the
> opportunities :)
IMHO it's a multi-level issue, but I guess it comes down to what you
really mean by "a degree that really matters".
>> They also maintain that women are a minority group.
>
> I don't know what the demographics are like in NZ but in the US the
> majority of political, management, police, and other positions of
> authority are held by males making females a minority in positions of
> power.
Current Governor General, Prime Minister, and Solicitor General are all
women.
Rupert Boleyn
carved upon a tablet of ether:
> > It's a fairly common belief in the PC brigade that Maori can't be
> > racist, and the gay/lesbian can't be sexist. Only the majority can
> > practise discrimination, you see.
>
> Actually that's more or less true. Anyone can have
> racist/sexist/religious/whatever prejudices but you really have to be in a
> position of power in order to practice discrimination, at least to a degree
> that really matters. I'm sure many minorities would discriminate more often
> if they could, they just don't have the opportunities :)
You don't have to be very high up the pecking order to be in a
position of power every day. A low-grade government clerk or private
sector office worker can practice pretty effective discrimination if
they choose to do so.
> > They also maintain that women are a
> > minority group.
>
> I don't know what the demographics are like in NZ but in the US the majority
> of political, management, police, and other positions of authority are held
> by males making females a minority in positions of power.
That doesn't make them a minority group. It merely makes them a
'dis-empowered' or 'discriminated against' majority. Apparently being
an oppressed majority isn't as cool as being an oppressed minority.
Sorcier
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rbo...@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
> news:4gnd9097nnvnjmafc...@4ax.com...
>
>>On Mon, 03 May 2004 22:13:20 GMT, Keith Davies
>><keith....@kjdavies.org> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>>
>>It's a fairly common belief in the PC brigade that Maori can't be
>>racist, and the gay/lesbian can't be sexist. Only the majority can
>>practise discrimination, you see.
>
> Actually that's more or less true. Anyone can have
> racist/sexist/religious/whatever prejudices but you really have to be in a
> position of power in order to practice discrimination, at least to a degree
> that really matters.
Anyone can be in a position of power.
But racism, to me is a thought process, not a result.
> I'm sure many minorities would discriminate more often
> if they could, they just don't have the opportunities :)
Try to get a job in some Chinatowns, if you're not from
the neighborhood.
>>They also maintain that women are a
>>minority group.
>
> I don't know what the demographics are like in NZ but in the US the majority
> of political, management, police, and other positions of authority are held
> by males making females a minority in positions of power.
True, but women are a majority of the population.
Calling them a minority because they are oppressed seems as absurd to
me as calling Black South Africans a minority in South Africa
when Apartheid was in effect.
Sorcier
Has he been born yet?
The Black Guardian
>> It's a fairly common belief in the PC brigade that Maori can't be
>> racist, and the gay/lesbian can't be sexist. Only the majority can
>> practise discrimination, you see.
>
> Actually that's more or less true. Anyone can have
> racist/sexist/religious/whatever prejudices but you really have to be in a
> position of power in order to practice discrimination, at least to a degree
> that really matters.
All groups discriminate (no, I'm not saying everyone does, but no group is
innocent of it). The only difference is in degree of effect.
> I'm sure many minorities would discriminate more often if they could,
> they just don't have the opportunities :)
You really need to get out more often. I could tell you some stories from
personal experience of "minorities" discriminating against me quite often.
The only difference is that "majorities" can get around the discrimination
directed at them easier than "minorities" can when it's directed against
them.
--
-=[ The BlakGard ]=-
"Somewhere there's danger;
somewhere there's injustice,
and somewhere else the tea is getting cold!"
William Burke
Sorcier <sNoEr...@cavtel.net> wrote:
No.
Would it matter?
--p
David Prokopetz
Well, if he's already been born, you can't change his place of birth by
moving, can you? ;)
- Sir Bob.
Christopher Adams
>
> If someone has a preference, I'll happily use it[1]. Short of that,
> I'll use purely descriptive -- and as accurate as I can -- terms. Miles
> was a 'tall skinny black man', Jimmy was a 'small Chinese kid', Derek
> was 'Japanese-looking' (since I knew that he only *looked* Japanese but
> considered himself Canadian). My kids are both half-Japanese; if it
> comes up that's how they'll be described [just for laughs, my wife
> Yumiko has the roundest eyes in the family].
I'm lucky that most people in my group of friends are cool about such things, to
the point of being comfortable with "politically incorrect" statements (though
we do have a few knee-jerkers on the margins who are still scandalised by the
casual abuse slung around in conversation, I tend to ignore them).
For example, I have a friend with a Japanese father, who generally describes
himself as half-Japanese. He's mentioned before that it's only because he's in
Australia that he thinks of himself as such; when he's in Japan for holidays and
whatnot, he thinks of himself as gaijin. Luckily for him, he doesn't experience
any distress over this, though he does think about it a considerable amount.
Still, among us, well . . . here's an example. He's Paragon, my friend Gareth is
Halion, and this is from our webforum:
Paragon wrote: The Japanese have it right, man! Weird sex everywhere! That's
how we make a safe society!
Halion wrote: Alan is beginning another manifestation of *those* genes. Time
he got dosed again.
Paragon wrote: Dose! Dose! Mememememe! Quick, before I start wearing a fluro
afro and giant platform shoes! Or a black business suit. Gross.
Then we devolved into a discussion of exactly how safe Japanese society is in
the wider picture, considering hikikomori and enjo kosai.
--
Christopher Adams
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nath Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you
understand?
You're not a bad person. You're a terrific person. You're my favorite person.
But every once in a while you just can be a real cunt.
- Bill
Jasin Zujovic
> > >And what would you call an old girlfriend of mine who was, iirc,
> > >3/8ths irish, 1/8th algonquin, 2/8ths Sioux, 1/8, Kiowa, and 1/8th
> > >Ojibwa?
> > >
> > >I'll tell you what term she used to describe herself after you answer.
> >
> > I'ad ask what her ethnicity was and politley nod.
>
> COp out, since it was you who claimed you would use tribal names, She
> called herself a mutt, by the way. Best damn-looking mutt I ever saw.
Post proof or retract1!1!
--
Jasin Zujovic
jzuj...@inet.hr
James Quick
Jasin Zujovic <jzuj...@inet.hr> wrote:
When I said "old" I meant "old" as in around 1986. I don't have any
pictures from that era to post. Sorry.
--
James Quick [][][] jamesqu...@hotmail.com
"I dislike the term Obsessive Compulsive. I prefer to be called
Compulsive-Obsessive."
"Why is that?"
"It's in alphabetical order."
Jasin Zujovic
> > > > >And what would you call an old girlfriend of mine who was, iirc,
> > > > >3/8ths irish, 1/8th algonquin, 2/8ths Sioux, 1/8, Kiowa, and 1/8th
> > > > >Ojibwa?
> > > > >
> > > > >I'll tell you what term she used to describe herself after you answer.
> > > >
> > > > I'ad ask what her ethnicity was and politley nod.
> > >
> > > COp out, since it was you who claimed you would use tribal names, She
> > > called herself a mutt, by the way. Best damn-looking mutt I ever saw.
> >
> > Post proof or retract1!1!
>
> When I said "old" I meant "old" as in around 1986. I don't have any
> pictures from that era to post. Sorry.
Aw.
--
Jasin Zujovic
jzuj...@inet.hr
heratyk
news:c5600c36440f3680...@news.nntpserver.com...
> On 03 May 2004 04:55:44 GMT, keife...@aol.comnospam (Keifer0999)
> wrote:
>
> >When have you ever seen people of European descent called by their
ethnicity?
>
> Frequently. Usually with the appendage "Anglo" (i.e.
> "Anglo-European") but that's because of context.
Sometimes, Americans of various ethnicities will use the term "Anglo" (or
something similar) to refer to all Europeans, or Americans of European
descent. None of my European ancestors were from the Angle tribe.
--
heratyk
http://members.cox.net/cyberdungeon/index.html
Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day.
Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm the rest of his life.
heratyk
news:slrnc9dgvv.3c...@kjdavies.kjdavies.org...
> number of people from all over the world. I don't think *anyone* ever
> described Miles as 'African-American', he was *black*. IIRC he actually
> took offense at being called African-American; he was Canadian. Jimmy
Hehe, I remember someone on a talk show years ago make a fuss about how they
should call one of the other guests an "African-American". He was from
Africa, and not American at all, but she didn't seem to grasp the
implication.
OTOH, there was a white guy I knew in college who emigrated from South
Africa, who got a kick out of describing himself as an African-American on
forms, etc.
Ian R Malcomson
>Sometimes, Americans of various ethnicities will use the term "Anglo" (or
>something similar) to refer to all Europeans, or Americans of European
>descent.
Well, they're just silly, then. So a French-American would call himself
"Anglo-American"?
>None of my European ancestors were from the Angle tribe.
Nor mine, but the prefix "Anglo", as well as other Angle derivations
(including "English" and "England") have extended beyond a bunch of
immigrant Northumbrians, Mercians, and East Anglians. It's why I'm
English without a single drop (to the best of my knowledge) of Angle
blood in me.
--
Ian R Malcomson
Keith Davies
> "Keith Davies" <keith....@kjdavies.org> wrote in message
> news:slrnc9dgvv.3c...@kjdavies.kjdavies.org...
>> On 3 May 2004 21:36:22 GMT, Robert Singers <rsin...@finger.hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> number of people from all over the world. I don't think *anyone* ever
>> described Miles as 'African-American', he was *black*. IIRC he actually
>> took offense at being called African-American; he was Canadian. Jimmy
>
> Hehe, I remember someone on a talk show years ago make a fuss about
> how they should call one of the other guests an "African-American". He
> was from Africa, and not American at all, but she didn't seem to grasp
> the implication.
heh. I can believe it; Miles ran into that sometimes.
"Look, I'm not African-American. I'm Canadian, I'm black. I'm a black
Canadian. Why is this so difficult for you to grasp?"
His cousin from England was even more direct.
"Sod off, I'm *English*."
Incidentally, does anyone find it odd when they see someone from an
obvious ethnic group, but hear a different accent?
Usually 'native $ethnic' doesn't stand out all that much. It can be
difficult to understand, perhaps, but seeing someone obviously of
Japanese descent speaking with a Japanese accent is 'normal'. Or with a
local accent (I knew some second-generation Japanese kids in school;
IIRC their parents spoke with a Japanese accent, but they had a local
accent). Anything else is ear-catching (like the second-generation
Japanese girl speaking with a southern accent).
Indian descent, 'local', Indian, and English accents don't stand out,
but a French one would be jarring, I think.
None of it's *wrong*, mind, but it can really grab attention, more than
the person's appearance.
> OTOH, there was a white guy I knew in college who emigrated from South
> Africa, who got a kick out of describing himself as an
> African-American on forms, etc.
I could see that being hard to resist, yes.
Duane VanderPol
news:4095347a$0$16606$5a62...@freenews.iinet.net.au...
> I have been trying to figure out what type of class would be a good choice
> for a Native American themed character in a fantasy setting, and I've been
> having trouble.
Hmn. As others have pointed out "Native American" covers a LOT of
sociological territory as well as associated terrain. North or South
America? I assume you mean North America, but what region of North America?
The plains? Pacific Northwest coastal tribes? Southwest? Northeast? And
what period of history of "Native Americans" are we talking about? Crossing
of the land bridge from Asia? Just prior to the appearance or settlement of
Europeans? Spanish Conquistadores? Lewis and Clark? Civil War or wild
west era around the 1880's? Pre- or post-reservations?
I can probably go down the list of classes and come up with a "Native
American" concept for each, forgetting for the moment that combining
demi-human races with "Native American" concepts opens up all-new levels of
possibility.
Barbarian: The default picture is a somewhat Norse or Germanic concept -
Vikings, Gauls, Conan, etc. But a B-movie stereotype of an "Indian on the
warpath" would fit. The mere mental image of a face-painted warrior leaping
at an opponent in a screaming battle-fury should seal the concept whether
using a spear, hand axe, bow, or even sabre.
Bard: Should be obvious as the "storyteller" stereotype tending to wizened
old men or women.
Cleric: Shaman
Druid: Shaman of a forest-dwelling region, such as the US NW or NE.
Fighter: obvious
Monk: Not terribly far-fetched since D&D monks have elements of both the
cloistered european monastic and asian martial arts practitioner. Since you
ARE talking about characters in a fantasy setting I at least have no problem
picturing a historical Native American as a monk, probably one who rather
than studying in a particular "school" or monasterial order is inducted into
the class by way of some rite or ritual, such as sweat lodge meditation,
physical test (ever see the movie "A Man Called Horse"?), or dream quest.
My first template for such a concept would be the character of Mani from
"Brotherhood of the Wolf".
Paladin: If you can break the mind free of conceiving only of a paladin in
full plate on a horse you can turn a character from dang near any culture
into a paladin. You only have to be able to follow the paladin code.
Ranger: The classic stereotype of the Native American as a scout and
tracker.
Rogue: The stereotype of the Native American in westerns has them as renown
for their ability to move in silence. Add the reputation as scouts and it's
not a big leap to fit just about any kind of rogue.
Sorceror: Not as obvious but it's not difficult to picture a shaman as a
sorceror rather than cleric or druid. It just depends on the role he
fulfulls in his tribe or the role he has CHOSEN for him/herself.
Wizard: Probably the most difficult of all to picture, but it IS a fantasy
setting you're placing this "Native American" in. It might help to conceive
of his "spellbook" as a carved totem staff or spear, a beaded canvas or dyed
cloth, specially knotted or braided cord, runestones, or carved bones; just
something non-standard. Or maybe the character just happens to be the first
of his people to ever DO something so outlandish as study books of spells.
> Also, are there any websites or books that go into more detail about
Native
> American weapons, clothes, as well as their Nomadic lifestyle? It just
seems
> quite hard to find the right information on many of these websites I have
> been visiting.
I think it's safe to say that a nomadic lifestyle is a rare _exception_
to Native American cultures. I don't have any lnks or books to offer but I
think if you are trying to encompass the totality of North American Native
cultures you have bitten off a huge chunk to chew. You have only to realize
that "Native North American" encompasses Inuit peoples in Alaska and NW
Canada as well as the plains tribes you seem to be focused on to see just
how vast a topic you're dealing with.
Wayne Shaw
wrote:
>"Wayne Shaw" <sh...@caprica.com> wrote in message
>news:c5600c36440f3680...@news.nntpserver.com...
>> On 03 May 2004 04:55:44 GMT, keife...@aol.comnospam (Keifer0999)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >When have you ever seen people of European descent called by their
>ethnicity?
>>
>> Frequently. Usually with the appendage "Anglo" (i.e.
>> "Anglo-European") but that's because of context.
>
>Sometimes, Americans of various ethnicities will use the term "Anglo" (or
>something similar) to refer to all Europeans, or Americans of European
>descent. None of my European ancestors were from the Angle tribe.
Usually I've seen the distinction used to make it clear they're
lumping the Brits in with the Europeans, which often isn't done (I
don't know exactly why; maybe because they're islanders).
Wayne Shaw
>> It's a fairly common belief in the PC brigade that Maori can't be
>> racist, and the gay/lesbian can't be sexist. Only the majority can
>> practise discrimination, you see.
>
>Actually that's more or less true. Anyone can have
>racist/sexist/religious/whatever prejudices but you really have to be in a
>position of power in order to practice discrimination, at least to a degree
>that really matters. I'm sure many minorities would discriminate more often
>if they could, they just don't have the opportunities :)
That'd be true if power was entirely evenly in the hands of the
majority, but often a minority, even if it's a single member, has
locallized power. For example if your Maori has the only mechanic
shop in town, he's got plenty of opportunity to put the screws on
white brother if he's of a mood.
Wayne Shaw
<keith....@kjdavies.org> wrote:
>Usually 'native $ethnic' doesn't stand out all that much. It can be
>difficult to understand, perhaps, but seeing someone obviously of
>Japanese descent speaking with a Japanese accent is 'normal'. Or with a
>local accent (I knew some second-generation Japanese kids in school;
>IIRC their parents spoke with a Japanese accent, but they had a local
>accent). Anything else is ear-catching (like the second-generation
>Japanese girl speaking with a southern accent).
A few years back there was a comedian I saw a bit from on TV; he's of
Japanese descent and apparently from part of the coastal South where
quite a few Japanese fisherman settled at one time. He came out
looked around at the audience and said, in an accent and voice that
reminded me of nothing so much as the old cartoon character
Huckleberry Hound "'Evening. Now right about now, a lot of you are
goin' 'What's wrong with this picture?'"
Wayne Shaw
<passeng...@email.com> wrote:
>In article <de95f0510ee6da49...@news.nntpserver.com>,
> Wayne Shaw <sh...@caprica.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 02 May 2004 23:39:41 GMT, William Burke
>> <passeng...@email.com> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <Qxflc.21$oO4....@news.uswest.net>,
>> > Sorcier <sNoEr...@cavtel.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >> So what do _you_ call the ones descended from those who got here on
>> >> foot rather than by sea or air?
>> >
>> >Are you saying that I can reset my ethnic identification by flying from
>> >California to Russia and walking across the Bering Strait?
>>
>> Read what he said again. Walk there. Then wait a thousand years or
>> so for ethnic distinction to set in.
>
>He said descended.
>
>Are you saying that I can reset my son's ethnic identification, etc.
>etc.?
No, but you can probably reset your great-great grandson's if you work
at it.
Keith Davies
That's exactly what I'm talking about. Jeff told me this girl spoke
like a southern belle... which, while it can be a lovely accent, just
isn't right from someone who looks Japanese. Even a French accent
would've been better, there; he was at school in Montreal.
OTOH, we'll get used to it soon enough; people are moving around more
and more every year.
Mike1
Ah Jesus.....
Just soak your asses in a tub of walnut-juice and get over with it
already.
--
Reply to mike1@@@usfamily.net sans two @@, or your reply won't reach me.
Those who wave copies of the Constitution around as symbols of their
liberty remind me of dogs who have learned to carry their leashes in
their mouths. -- Butler Shaffer
Wayne Shaw
<keith....@kjdavies.org> wrote:
>That's exactly what I'm talking about. Jeff told me this girl spoke
>like a southern belle... which, while it can be a lovely accent, just
>isn't right from someone who looks Japanese. Even a French accent
>would've been better, there; he was at school in Montreal.
Of course sometimes it actually makes things better; the black woman
on "Las Vegas" has a British accent, and it seems to go with her just
fine.
Keith Davies
Actually, I don't find that one jarring. I've seen it before, a few
times. But yeah, you have a point.
Note that I don't necessarily find it unattractive, just surprising.
Meeting someone for the first time that I know online or from work (i.e.
never actually *seen* before), appearance doesn't usually surprise me;
I've met people from all over the world and appearance doesn't cause
much reaction in me any more.
Ever meet a 6'6", 300 pound mound of hairy muscle... and he speaks with
a high voice? Same sort of thing -- you get used to it quickly enough,
but it's surprising. Heh, my mom finally met one of her company's
distributors face to face; he had the high voice, and when they met, he
was *huge*. Definitely not what she'd pictured on the other end of the
phone.
Rupert Boleyn
> Incidentally, does anyone find it odd when they see someone from an
> obvious ethnic group, but hear a different accent?
I get that here with asians. There are a lot of asian students just
off the boat - so many that locals of asian extraction sound odd with
their Kiwi accents. Where I grew up the reverse was true.