No-dachi/Dai-Katana
GoDeedGo!
does a dai-katana do the same damage (1d10/1d20) as the no dachi.
--
Live life, love life and at the same time learn from life, realising
what is truly happening in this world, become conscious of it, and then
become a postivie part of it, sek the answers that will allow you to
live and love more.
Tiuz
GoDeedGo! <jwhi...@une.edu.au> wrote in article
<7k4gt9$q4b$1...@gruvel.une.edu.au>...
> Is the no-dachi a Dai-katana, or are they completely different? if so,
> does a dai-katana do the same damage (1d10/1d20) as the no dachi.
A dai-katana is a long bladed katana, which is treated as a katana from
what I know... A no-dachi is an oriental two-handed sword, with the stats
of its euro equivilant.
Go figure.
-Tiuz grumbles something about game designers.
Vermilion
>Is the no-dachi a Dai-katana, or are they completely different? if so,
>does a dai-katana do the same damage (1d10/1d20) as the no dachi.
In the real world, a daikatana is just a longer katana, like 3 shaku in blade
length (Japanese measurement, one shaku is almost exactly 12 inches). A
no-dachi is an absurdly long sword, I'd say a blade of 4 shaku and up. Check
out Mifune's character Kikuchiyo in The Sven Samurai - he's carrying a real
no-dachi.
In game damage terms, I'd probably make a daikatana more like a bastard sword
used in two-handed fashion and keep the no-dachi as is.
- Vermilion, who thinks the no-dachi was a fairly ineffective weapon, back in
the day.
Christopher Adams
Cool, Nordic samurai films!
--
Christopher Adams
A man of no fortune, and with a name to come
Known as -Kostakii Baatyr'ev- in the S.C.A.
nemo me impune contradicessit
A'koss
Vermilion <verm...@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:vermilion.1...@fuse.net...
> In article jwhi...@une.edu.au (GoDeedGo!) writes:
>
> >Is the no-dachi a Dai-katana, or are they completely different? if so,
> >does a dai-katana do the same damage (1d10/1d20) as the no dachi.
>
> In the real world, a daikatana is just a longer katana, like 3 shaku in
blade
> length (Japanese measurement, one shaku is almost exactly 12 inches). A
> no-dachi is an absurdly long sword, I'd say a blade of 4 shaku and up.
> out Mifune's character Kikuchiyo in The Sven Samurai - he's carrying a
real
> no-dachi.
>
> In game damage terms, I'd probably make a daikatana more like a bastard
sword
> used in two-handed fashion and keep the no-dachi as is.
>
> - Vermilion, who thinks the no-dachi was a fairly ineffective weapon, back
in
> the day.
I don't have my history books in front of me, but I seem to recall a time
in Japan's history (peace-time) where there were two very powerful families
(?) who were always trying to outdo one another with displays of wealth and
power. They made these huge and gaudy tachis (no-dachis I assume) as more of
a display of said wealth rather than as a fighting weapon. Although I'm sure
it was servicable as such in a pinch.
My sword's bigger than yer sword! ;)
A'koss!
Vermilion
>>Check out Mifune's character Kikuchiyo in The Sven Samurai <snip>
>Cool, Nordic samurai films!
Rofl - I guess I was typing that in a bit of a hurry. Typos are cool :)
- Vermilion, amused at the thought of fuedal Japan populated with large,
pale-skinned blond folks...
Josh Jasper
>
> In article "Christopher Adams" <ad...@syd.comcen.com.au> writes:
>
> >>Check out Mifune's character Kikuchiyo in The Sven Samurai <snip>
>
> >Cool, Nordic samurai films!
>
> Rofl - I guess I was typing that in a bit of a hurry. Typos are cool :)
>
Try Mark Rogers (or was it Roberts?) "Samurai" Cat books. Mexican
Samurai!
Protowzrd
>
Or: "I see your Schwartz is a big as mine." ;)
Protowizard
-Official Source of Khyron and Azonia Misinformation
-Official Vorlon-Zentraedi Hybrid of the PML
-Patron Deity of Funky-Haired Anime Characters
-In Charge of Things Man Was Not Meant To Know
"Oh yes, these mint cookies are quite good."-Darth Sidious
A'koss
GoDeedGo! <jwhi...@une.edu.au> wrote in message
news:7k4gt9$q4b$1...@gruvel.une.edu.au...
> Is the no-dachi a Dai-katana, or are they completely different? if so,
> does a dai-katana do the same damage (1d10/1d20) as the no dachi.
Just some stats I've come up with on my own based on my own knowledge...
Long Sword: 1d8/1d12 T-H: +1 to each Type: S/P
Katana O-H: 2d4/2d6 / T-H: +1 to each Type: S
Daikatana: 1d10+1/2d8 (T-H only) Type: S
Bastard Sword O-H: 1d8/1d12 T-H: 1d10/2d8 Type: S/P
T-H Sword: 2d6/3d6 Type: S (I admit I don't know how much thrusting was
done
with this weapon, I assume very little.)
No-Dachi: 2d6/2d10 Type: S
The Katana here is a light Katana, easily wielded with one or two hands.
(2 1/2lbs to 3 lbs.) The Daikatana is T-H only, but not as big as a
No-dachi - something like 3 1/2 lbs to ~4 lbs. The Bastard sword would be
one of the heavier varieties, anything lighter would be considered a
Longsword. (3 1/2 lbs at least.)
A'koss!
A'koss
"big sword" and is a largish katana. I wondered if it was the same as a
go-katana as I never see daikatana in any of the japanese sword books. As a
matter of fact I haven't even heard of the term until recently. Just out of
curiosity...
A'koss!
Vermilion
Yep. Dai is just the word for big (the Japanese toy conglomerate BanDai
translates as Big West, as I recall). For all intents and pusposes, it's just
a long katana - almost proportionately larger, actually, as the handle is also
longer. A no-dachi handle is... insufficient, in my opinion.
- Vermilion, who thinks European two-handers are equally ridiculous.
Andrew Dynon
>In article "Christopher Adams" <ad...@syd.comcen.com.au> writes:
>
>>>Check out Mifune's character Kikuchiyo in The Sven Samurai <snip>
>
>>Cool, Nordic samurai films!
>
>Rofl - I guess I was typing that in a bit of a hurry. Typos are cool :)
>
> pale-skinned blond folks...
I take it you don't watch much anime?
Dragoon Lancer
"No-dachi/Dai-Katana". So.
No-Dachi - Japanese long sword. Varying lengths by age and smith. Usually
had a long, straight blade with an angular edge and end.
Dai-Katana - long version of the -other- Japanese longsword (the Katana).
Long, real long (to the point of unwieldliness, in some cases) slightly
curved blade.
Christopher Adams
>> pale-skinned blond folks...
>
>I take it you don't watch much anime?
Why would you? It's all cra -
Ah, ignore me. Reflexes got the better of me there.
--
Christopher Adams
A man of no fortune, and with a name to come
Known as -Kostakii Baatyr'ev- in the S.C.A.
And on the pedestal these words appear:
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.
- Percy Bysshe Shelley, "Ozymandias"
A'koss
Dragoon Lancer <Dragoo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:01bebaa3$94151dc0$6564a8c0@cj1...
> OK. I do not know what was just going on, but the subject header says
> "No-dachi/Dai-Katana". So.
> No-Dachi - Japanese long sword. Varying lengths by age and smith. Usually
> had a long, straight blade with an angular edge and end.
The weapon you are describing is the first, early version of the tachi,
those that predate the manufacture of curved tachi. The no-dachi was not
straight, nor did it have an angular edge. It was basically a long tachi,
also called the o-tachi with a 20"+ tsuba and a 36"+ blade. The real purpose
behind their creation was as a display of military might in that period, not
necessarily as a practical weapon. Although it has been hypothesized that
they may have been used against mounted and heavier armored opponants like
the zweihander.
There were two imperial courts at the time trying to outdo one another
with displays of power. Big swords in cloth "sayas", big naginatas, etc. The
two courts eventually united and the huge swords were no longer necessary.
In fact they were outright banned for some reason.... They only had a brief
period of history where they were used (mid to late 1300's)
> Dai-Katana - long version of the -other- Japanese longsword (the Katana).
> Long, real long (to the point of unwieldliness, in some cases) slightly
> curved blade.
The daikatana's existance however I cannot confirm. I have many books on
Japanese swords and friends in the know and none have an answer or even a
reference to this sword. I know it translates to "big sword" but I cannot
find any historical evidence of such. I've simply been told that if it's
over 32" or so, call it a no-dachi.
If anyone can produce a historical reference to the daikatana, let me
know.
A'koss!
Vermilion
>Dragoon Lancer <Dragoo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:01bebaa3$94151dc0$6564a8c0@cj1...
>> OK. I do not know what was just going on, but the subject header says
>> "No-dachi/Dai-Katana". So.
>> No-Dachi - Japanese long sword. Varying lengths by age and smith. Usually
>> had a long, straight blade with an angular edge and end.
> The weapon you are describing is the first, early version of the tachi,
>those that predate the manufacture of curved tachi. The no-dachi was not
>straight, nor did it have an angular edge. It was basically a long tachi,
>also called the o-tachi with a 20"+ tsuba and a 36"+ blade. The real purpose
>behind their creation was as a display of military might in that period, not
>necessarily as a practical weapon. Although it has been hypothesized that
>they may have been used against mounted and heavier armored opponants like
>the zweihander.
Wow. A tachi with more than 3 feet of cutting edge? That's something I've
never seen. Huge...
> There were two imperial courts at the time trying to outdo one another
>with displays of power. Big swords in cloth "sayas", big naginatas, etc. The
>two courts eventually united and the huge swords were no longer necessary.
>In fact they were outright banned for some reason.... They only had a brief
>period of history where they were used (mid to late 1300's)
That was right towards the end of the Ashikaga Shogunate, I think - very
chaotic for a time. However, having come from the Mongol invasions just a
century prior, I'd think the Japanese would still be moving away from classic
tachi style construction and into the 'modern' katana. The smith Masamune was
already dead by this point and his school of swordcraft famous - crafting
oversized tachi for combat seems unlikely...
>> Dai-Katana - long version of the -other- Japanese longsword (the Katana).
>> Long, real long (to the point of unwieldliness, in some cases) slightly
>> curved blade.
> The daikatana's existance however I cannot confirm. I have many books on
>Japanese swords and friends in the know and none have an answer or even a
>reference to this sword. I know it translates to "big sword" but I cannot
>find any historical evidence of such. I've simply been told that if it's
>over 32" or so, call it a no-dachi.
Only 32"? I'd say no less than 36", or more precisely three shaku/feet. Then
again, it's a pretty subjective matter, I don't think there were any rules for
classification back then :)
> If anyone can produce a historical reference to the daikatana, let me
>know.
I've got some pictures that purport to show a daikatana, but I can't actually
verify their authenticity in a historical context. I prefer simple to think
of the daikatana as a sword for a larger than average swordsman. A
traditional 27" katana would not be best utilized in the hands of a 6' tall
man (admittedly a rarity in Japan). Something bigger might be called for,
without the oversized unwieldy length of a no-dachi...
- Vermilion, who reads rgfd just for these sorts of threads :)
A'koss
> Wow. A tachi with more than 3 feet of cutting edge? That's something
I've
> never seen. Huge...
Never seen one 'eh. Well, just follow the link my friend...
http://www.datasys.net/~bwarren
All of those swords belong to Horanako Hoshino of the San Fransico
Japanese Sword Society.
> > There were two imperial courts at the time trying to outdo one another
> >with displays of power. Big swords in cloth "sayas", big naginatas, etc.
The
> >two courts eventually united and the huge swords were no longer
necessary.
> >In fact they were outright banned for some reason.... They only had a
brief
> >period of history where they were used (mid to late 1300's)
>
> That was right towards the end of the Ashikaga Shogunate, I think - very
> chaotic for a time. However, having come from the Mongol invasions just a
> century prior, I'd think the Japanese would still be moving away from
classic
> tachi style construction and into the 'modern' katana. The smith Masamune
was
> already dead by this point and his school of swordcraft famous - crafting
> oversized tachi for combat seems unlikely...
Actually the period no-dachis were being used was just *before* the
Ashikaga Shogunate. It was during the time of his reign that the uchigatana
(katanas and wakizashis) started gaining popularity. The fighting was
fiercer and the need for speed became paramount...
> > If anyone can produce a historical reference to the daikatana, let me
> >know.
>
> I've got some pictures that purport to show a daikatana, but I can't
actually
> verify their authenticity in a historical context. I prefer simple to
think
> of the daikatana as a sword for a larger than average swordsman. A
> traditional 27" katana would not be best utilized in the hands of a 6'
tall
> man (admittedly a rarity in Japan). Something bigger might be called for,
> without the oversized unwieldy length of a no-dachi...
Again, that's how I see it but I have no historical reference to base this
on.
A'koss!
Vermilion
>Vermilion <verm...@fuse.net> wrote in message
>news:vermilion.1...@fuse.net...
>> In article "A'koss" <infi...@home.com> writes:
>> Wow. A tachi with more than 3 feet of cutting edge? That's something
>I've
>> never seen. Huge...
> Never seen one 'eh. Well, just follow the link my friend...
> http://www.datasys.net/~bwarren
> All of those swords belong to Horanako Hoshino of the San Fransico
>Japanese Sword Society.
Cool! That really is an uncommon looking sword. The blade looks shorter than
what I've seen in most no-dachi, and certainly has a more useful handle. Very
cool - any idea how much it weighs?
>> > There were two imperial courts at the time trying to outdo one another
>> >with displays of power. Big swords in cloth "sayas", big naginatas, etc.
>The
>> >two courts eventually united and the huge swords were no longer
>necessary.
>> >In fact they were outright banned for some reason.... They only had a
>brief
>> >period of history where they were used (mid to late 1300's)
>>
>> That was right towards the end of the Ashikaga Shogunate, I think - very
>> chaotic for a time. However, having come from the Mongol invasions just a
>> century prior, I'd think the Japanese would still be moving away from
>classic
>> tachi style construction and into the 'modern' katana. The smith Masamune
>was
>> already dead by this point and his school of swordcraft famous - crafting
>> oversized tachi for combat seems unlikely...
> Actually the period no-dachis were being used was just *before* the
>Ashikaga Shogunate. It was during the time of his reign that the uchigatana
>(katanas and wakizashis) started gaining popularity. The fighting was
>fiercer and the need for speed became paramount...
I agree totally. That's why I thought it would be unlikely for anyone to be
using the proverbial "jumbo tachi" at that juncture. having been humiliated
by the Mongols mobility, the move to faster weaponry seems logical. No way
that sword in the above pic can be used quickly...
>> > If anyone can produce a historical reference to the daikatana, let me
>> >know.
>>
>> I've got some pictures that purport to show a daikatana, but I can't
>actually
>> verify their authenticity in a historical context. I prefer simple to
>think
>> of the daikatana as a sword for a larger than average swordsman. A
>> traditional 27" katana would not be best utilized in the hands of a 6'
>tall
>> man (admittedly a rarity in Japan). Something bigger might be called for,
>> without the oversized unwieldy length of a no-dachi...
> Again, that's how I see it but I have no historical reference to base this
>on.
Hmmmm... I'll see what I can dig up...
- Vermilion, also with an extensive library on these matetrs ;)
A'koss
The GrymLordeŽ <grym...@grymwurld.com> wrote in message
news:376dcfb0...@news.slip.net...
> Hello everyone,
>
> 1. In the Japanese language, nodachi (modern reading is ohdachi) and
> daikatana mean exactly the same thing. Both words consist of the same
> two characters (kanji). The first character means large or great.
> The second means sword. To read the characters as 'ohdachi' is the
> proper or formal (_on_) reading, which BTW is the most common with
> compound (two or more kanji) words. Daikatana would be the familiar
> or vernacular reading (_kun_). However, it is very rare to give the
> kun reading for a compound word.
Thanks Scott, this pretty much confirms my suspicions on the matter. Just
two different ways of reading the same kanji characters. That makes sense.
A'koss!
A'koss
Vermilion <verm...@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:vermilion.1...@fuse.net...
> In article "A'koss" <infi...@home.com> writes:
>
> >Vermilion <verm...@fuse.net> wrote in message
> >news:vermilion.1...@fuse.net...
> >> In article "A'koss" <infi...@home.com> writes:
>
> >> Wow. A tachi with more than 3 feet of cutting edge? That's something
> >I've
> >> never seen. Huge...
>
> > Never seen one 'eh. Well, just follow the link my friend...
>
> > http://www.datasys.net/~bwarren
>
> > All of those swords belong to Horanako Hoshino of the San Fransico
> >Japanese Sword Society.
>
> Cool! That really is an uncommon looking sword. The blade looks shorter
than
> what I've seen in most no-dachi, and certainly has a more useful handle.
They get even bigger than that. I'm told that the blade in the photo has a
36" blade with a 20" tsuba, but I think the blade is a little longer, more
like 40". They get up to 48" blades in some cases with 24" tsubas!
>Very cool - any idea how much it weighs?
Not exactly. Must be getting close to 5 lbs though. Heavy I'm told.
> > Actually the period no-dachis were being used was just *before* the
> >Ashikaga Shogunate. It was during the time of his reign that the
uchigatana
> >(katanas and wakizashis) started gaining popularity. The fighting was
> >fiercer and the need for speed became paramount...
> I agree totally. That's why I thought it would be unlikely for anyone to
be
> using the proverbial "jumbo tachi" at that juncture. having been
humiliated
> by the Mongols mobility, the move to faster weaponry seems logical. No
way
> that sword in the above pic can be used quickly...
A quick weapon, no. But when it connects.... ouch. 8o
A'koss!
Vermilion
>Hello everyone,
>1. In the Japanese language, nodachi (modern reading is ohdachi) and
>daikatana mean exactly the same thing. Both words consist of the same
>two characters (kanji). The first character means large or great.
>The second means sword. To read the characters as 'ohdachi' is the
>proper or formal (_on_) reading, which BTW is the most common with
>compound (two or more kanji) words. Daikatana would be the familiar
>or vernacular reading (_kun_). However, it is very rare to give the
>kun reading for a compound word.
Hmmm. That makes a lot of sense. If I knew more than basic -kana's, I might
have realized that :)
>2. The reading of katana was a late period usage. Traditionally,
>katana refers to carrying the sword in the sash, pointing downwards --
>the peacetime style. Whereas the tachi was suspended from the sash
>and pointed upwards for easy withdrawal from the scabbard -- hence a
>sword of war. Given that the use of the great sword was during war,
>and during the same time period (Medieval) there was a greater use of
>on readings (on being the closest to Chinese), in all likelihood the
>greatsword was called nodachi (the older pronunciation of ohdachi).
How they were carried was a difference, but not the most significant one. A
tachi typically differs from a katana in length and curvature. Moving from
the Chinese-inspired design of the Chokuto period (pre-900ad) to the commonly
thought of "samurai sword" of the Koto period (900 to about the start of the
Edo era), tachi evolved into katana. With its curved blade, the katana can be
more effectively be drawn in the blade up position, peacetime or no.
>3. When I was actively running a Bushido campaign (1980-1984), I did
>a great deal of research and not once ran across the term 'daikatana.'
And yet John Romero has made it so popular a term...
- Vermilion, who prefers no-dachi anyway.
The GrymLordeŽ
1. In the Japanese language, nodachi (modern reading is ohdachi) and
daikatana mean exactly the same thing. Both words consist of the same
two characters (kanji). The first character means large or great.
The second means sword. To read the characters as 'ohdachi' is the
proper or formal (_on_) reading, which BTW is the most common with
compound (two or more kanji) words. Daikatana would be the familiar
or vernacular reading (_kun_). However, it is very rare to give the
kun reading for a compound word.
2. The reading of katana was a late period usage. Traditionally,
katana refers to carrying the sword in the sash, pointing downwards --
the peacetime style. Whereas the tachi was suspended from the sash
and pointed upwards for easy withdrawal from the scabbard -- hence a
sword of war. Given that the use of the great sword was during war,
and during the same time period (Medieval) there was a greater use of
on readings (on being the closest to Chinese), in all likelihood the
greatsword was called nodachi (the older pronunciation of ohdachi).
3. When I was actively running a Bushido campaign (1980-1984), I did
a great deal of research and not once ran across the term 'daikatana.'
Sincerely,
Scott Griffith
Who's amazed at how much he actually remembers from his Japanese
studies.
On Sun, 20 Jun 1999 01:37:05 GMT, verm...@fuse.net (Vermilion)
wrote:
>In article "A'koss" <infi...@home.com> writes:
>
>>Dragoon Lancer <Dragoo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>news:01bebaa3$94151dc0$6564a8c0@cj1...
>>> OK. I do not know what was just going on, but the subject header says
>>> "No-dachi/Dai-Katana". So.
>>> No-Dachi - Japanese long sword. Varying lengths by age and smith. Usually
>>> had a long, straight blade with an angular edge and end.
>
>> The weapon you are describing is the first, early version of the tachi,
>>those that predate the manufacture of curved tachi. The no-dachi was not
>>straight, nor did it have an angular edge. It was basically a long tachi,
>>also called the o-tachi with a 20"+ tsuba and a 36"+ blade. The real purpose
>>behind their creation was as a display of military might in that period, not
>>necessarily as a practical weapon. Although it has been hypothesized that
>>they may have been used against mounted and heavier armored opponants like
>>the zweihander.
>
>Wow. A tachi with more than 3 feet of cutting edge? That's something I've
>never seen. Huge...
>
>> There were two imperial courts at the time trying to outdo one another
>>with displays of power. Big swords in cloth "sayas", big naginatas, etc. The
>>two courts eventually united and the huge swords were no longer necessary.
>>In fact they were outright banned for some reason.... They only had a brief
>>period of history where they were used (mid to late 1300's)
>
>That was right towards the end of the Ashikaga Shogunate, I think - very
>chaotic for a time. However, having come from the Mongol invasions just a
>century prior, I'd think the Japanese would still be moving away from classic
>tachi style construction and into the 'modern' katana. The smith Masamune was
>already dead by this point and his school of swordcraft famous - crafting
>oversized tachi for combat seems unlikely...
>
>>> Dai-Katana - long version of the -other- Japanese longsword (the Katana).
>>> Long, real long (to the point of unwieldliness, in some cases) slightly
>>> curved blade.
>
>> The daikatana's existance however I cannot confirm. I have many books on
>>Japanese swords and friends in the know and none have an answer or even a
>>reference to this sword. I know it translates to "big sword" but I cannot
>>find any historical evidence of such. I've simply been told that if it's
>>over 32" or so, call it a no-dachi.
>
>Only 32"? I'd say no less than 36", or more precisely three shaku/feet. Then
>again, it's a pretty subjective matter, I don't think there were any rules for
>classification back then :)
>
>> If anyone can produce a historical reference to the daikatana, let me
>>know.
>
>I've got some pictures that purport to show a daikatana, but I can't actually
>verify their authenticity in a historical context. I prefer simple to think
>of the daikatana as a sword for a larger than average swordsman. A
>traditional 27" katana would not be best utilized in the hands of a 6' tall
>man (admittedly a rarity in Japan). Something bigger might be called for,
>without the oversized unwieldy length of a no-dachi...
>
>- Vermilion, who reads rgfd just for these sorts of threads :)
http://www.grymwurld.com/
Where the flower of chivalry experiences the long dark night of the soul
Hugh
inaccurate stuff. Here's some definitions from "Daijirin 2nd edition", one
of the best Japanese dictionaries available. That's Japanese dictionary as
in Oxford or Webster's English dictionary. Trust me. I'm a translator ;-)
Katana (sword): Buki to shite mochiiru hamono.
Sharp instrument used as a weapon.
(But you knew that already).
Tsurugi (sword): Tohshin no ryohgawa ni ha no tsuita katana.
Katana with a blade attached to both sides.
(Katana, of course, normally have one edge)
Tohken (sword sword - two different kanji): Katana ya tsurugi no buki.
Weapon like a katana or tsurugi.
(A bit more general)
Tachi (fat sword): Chohdai na tohken wo soushou shite iu.
General term for long, wide swords.
(A bit more specific again)
Nodachi (field fat sword): Heian-jidai, Efu no kaju ya kuge ga mochiita
heijoh no tachi.
In the Heian period (794-1185), the sword of guards used by officials and
nobles of Efu.
(Seems fairly specific to me. The remaining text suggests that its a tsurugi
rather than a katana)
Ohdachi (big fat sword): Ohki na katana.
Big katana.
(I think this is the word people are looking for)
I'm not an expert on swords, but I have a lot of faith in this dictionary.
There's no mention of Daikatana, but if it was Japanese it would certainly
be spelt Daigatana or Ohgatana (as in Tachi - Ohdachi), so I assume that
it's made up.
Hugh
A'koss
Hugh <hu...@grugach.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7klrn0$l9n$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
> There has been loads of accurate information posted here, and loads of
> inaccurate stuff. Here's some definitions from "Daijirin 2nd edition", one
> of the best Japanese dictionaries available. That's Japanese dictionary as
> in Oxford or Webster's English dictionary. Trust me. I'm a translator ;-)
Some clarifications of my own. ;)
> Katana (sword): Buki to shite mochiiru hamono.
> Sharp instrument used as a weapon.
> (But you knew that already).
Yup.
> Tsurugi (sword): Tohshin no ryohgawa ni ha no tsuita katana.
> Katana with a blade attached to both sides.
> (Katana, of course, normally have one edge)
Not a Katana at all but a tachi. It was the early straight two-edged
predecessor to the curved single-edged tachi.
> Tohken (sword sword - two different kanji): Katana ya tsurugi no buki.
> Weapon like a katana or tsurugi.
> (A bit more general)
I have no idea what this is however. Another name for a wakizashi?
> Tachi (fat sword): Chohdai na tohken wo soushou shite iu.
> General term for long, wide swords.
> (A bit more specific again)
Predecessor to the Katana, long - yes (generally at least as long as a
Katana), wide - no. Katanas are wider but have a shallower curve.
> Nodachi (field fat sword): Heian-jidai, Efu no kaju ya kuge ga mochiita
> heijoh no tachi.
> In the Heian period (794-1185), the sword of guards used by officials and
> nobles of Efu.
> (Seems fairly specific to me. The remaining text suggests that its a
tsurugi
> rather than a katana)
The no-dachi was a tachi, not a tsurugi and I have not heard of them being
produced before the mid-1300's. However, the words no-dachi, o-tachi and
daikatana are all different translations of the same kanji, in this case
"big sword" and could technically be applied to any "big sword".
> Ohdachi (big fat sword): Ohki na katana.
> Big katana.
> (I think this is the word people are looking for)
Again another translation of a "big sword".
> I'm not an expert on swords, but I have a lot of faith in this dictionary.
> There's no mention of Daikatana, but if it was Japanese it would certainly
> be spelt Daigatana or Ohgatana (as in Tachi - Ohdachi), so I assume that
> it's made up.
More "big sword" translations...
A'koss!
Bryan J. Maloney
<infi...@home.com> wrote:
> produced before the mid-1300's. However, the words no-dachi, o-tachi and
> daikatana are all different translations of the same kanji, in this case
> "big sword" and could technically be applied to any "big sword".
Kind of like cleadham mor (claymore), eh?
--
Go gcreime na gráinneoga cealgrúnacha do thóin bheagmhaitheasach.
http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/bjm10/
Hugh
There has been loads of accurate information posted here, and loads of
inaccurate stuff. Here's some definitions from "Daijirin 2nd edition", one
of the best Japanese dictionaries available. That's Japanese dictionary as
in Oxford or Webster's English dictionary. Trust me. I'm a translator ;-)
Katana (sword): Buki to shite mochiiru hamono.
Sharp instrument used as a weapon.
(But you knew that already).
Tsurugi (sword): Tohshin no ryohgawa ni ha no tsuita katana.
Katana with a blade attached to both sides.
(Katana, of course, normally have one edge)
Tohken (sword sword - two different kanji): Katana ya tsurugi no buki.
Weapon like a katana or tsurugi.
(A bit more general)
Tachi (fat sword): Chohdai na tohken wo soushou shite iu.
General term for long, wide swords.
(A bit more specific again)
Nodachi (field fat sword): Heian-jidai, Efu no kaju ya kuge ga mochiita
heijoh no tachi.
In the Heian period (794-1185), the sword of guards used by officials and
nobles of Efu.
(Seems fairly specific to me. The remaining text suggests that its a tsurugi
rather than a katana)
Ohdachi (big fat sword): Ohki na katana.
Big katana.
(I think this is the word people are looking for)
I'm not an expert on swords, but I have a lot of faith in this dictionary.
There's no mention of Daikatana, but if it was Japanese it would certainly
be spelt Daigatana or Ohgatana (as in Tachi - Ohdachi), so I assume that
it's made up.
Hugh
The GrymLordeŽ
OK, I have to make a correction to what I posted above (because its
keeping me awake).
1. Acutally daikatana = daitoh = tachi as far as the written Japanese
is concerned. Nodachi/ohdachi is rendered as dai-dai-katana which is
not a word.
2. Basically correct (see #3 below).
3. In my favorite book, _Secrets of the Samurai_ by Oscar Ratti (which
IMHO is the *definitive* book on bujutsu (Japanese martial arts), the
author actually references Edward Gilbertson as having written that
the term 'daikatana' refers to nodachi (Transactions & Proceedings of
the Japan Society, London 1895-98). This is a one-time reference and
is the only book of several that I've read that even references the
term 'daikatana.'
4. So what's the verdict? Is the daitoh, tachi, and daikatana the
same sword? The kanji for all three are identical. The kanji for
nodachi (ohdachi) is different. Yet according to Secrets of the
Samurai, the daitoh is longer than the tachi and that the daikatana is
another name for nodachi. I'm reminded of how the term "broad sword"
has referred to very different swords over the centuries. Personally,
I'm going with the kanji definition. Besides, in game terms (and that
is what this is really about, right?) we're really discussing the
Japanese versions of bastard swords and two-handed swords.
Scott
Who's ready for some sleep now.
http://www.grymwurld.com/
Autumn leaves
Cast upon the water
Waiting to return
A'koss
> 4. So what's the verdict? Is the daitoh, tachi, and daikatana the
> same sword? The kanji for all three are identical. The kanji for
> nodachi (ohdachi) is different. Yet according to Secrets of the
> Samurai, the daitoh is longer than the tachi and that the daikatana is
> another name for nodachi. I'm reminded of how the term "broad sword"
> has referred to very different swords over the centuries. Personally,
> I'm going with the kanji definition. Besides, in game terms (and that
> is what this is really about, right?) we're really discussing the
> Japanese versions of bastard swords and two-handed swords.
Keep up Grymlorde, we came to that conclusion a couple of weeks ago! :-)
Yes, daikatana = nodachi/o-tachi, etc. and refers to a Japanese sword over
30" in length. Daito means longsword and I believe refers to *any* sword
over 24".
A'koss!