Uniquely Spelljammer
John Candy's Ghost
Mormegil of Ket (C. Walker) wrote:
>
> I wonder if anyone out there still uses the Spelljammer supplement.
> Most folks have never heard of it. Oh well, I must be getting old.
> Now to the point...I adored spelljammer for the spelljammers. The
> ships were wonderful to look at and ship to ship combat was a thrill.
> Unfortunately, the rules were sad beyond belief since they were only a
> vehicle (literally) to get players from one fantasy realm to another.
> Just imagine if Speljjamer had been given a unique tone and flavor like
> Planescape? Spelljammer would rule!
I got one word for you: Planejammer. Sends tingles up my spine. The
infinite distances of the planes, the astral, and the other parts of the
planes could be helped out by a planejammer. Skip portals, take more
remote ones...the plying of trade routes is infinitely helped by
planejammer ships. (One might even speculate that spelljammer ships are
the by-products of planejammers.)
> I think that spelljamming should be separate from pre published
> worlds. I would like to see the setting re-released with special racial
> outlooks and attention to issues, such as "How would the outlook of
> wildspacers differ from groundlings?" While a nice attempt the "scro"
> race in the Dragon Annual was sorry. It is this type of treatment in
> addition to Giant Space Hamsters that make most people laught at
> Spelljammer.
I agree, however I was not so hasty to kick out the giant space
hamsters. I actually thought they were pretty cool. The Complete
Spelljammer's Handbook went a long way to give "the wildspace front" but
I think that spelljammer failed more obviously because at the time TSR
had a lot of territory to cover, and the talent was being spread real
thin. They made their decisions, and spelljammer died because of it,
instead of receiving a facelift.
I always thought that the races in spelljammer went a _long_ way towards
something I've harped on forever with TSR; standard AD&D races being
treated in new ways. Elves that had a crumbling empire; _smart_
goblinoids. It was 9/10ths of the inspiration behind a lot of my
_terrestrial_ campaigns as well.
I'd like to see spelljammer II, with a PS facelift, and I'd even be
willing to write it (hint, hint TSR! :-) ) but it'd be a real
challenge. What _exactly_ would the flavour be? If you pull a
Planescape II, you're going to get burned. The idea behind the first
one was a sort of "chariots of the gods" attitude. Maybe a more Star
Trek, TNG edge would be appropriate. There's always the Star Wars angle
to take into consideration too. Planescape is fantasy-punk (and good,
too!), but what would spelljammer be?
> Has anyone else dealt with these issues to give their spelljammer
> campaign a unique flair?
My own campaign took place on a terrestrial level (I haven't used it
much since, but this is re-piquing my interest) so no, I haven't. But
I'm as willing as the next guy to pick up the slack of a project.
Shall we name a project leader?
--
"You know, you're pretty intolerant. Hostile and intolerant,
that's borderline homicidal! -John Candy as Del Griffith
John Candy's Ghost (gra...@frontiernet.net)
.sig
Mormegil of Ket (C. Walker)
I wonder if anyone out there still uses the Spelljammer supplement.
Most folks have never heard of it. Oh well, I must be getting old.
Now to the point...I adored spelljammer for the spelljammers. The
ships were wonderful to look at and ship to ship combat was a thrill.
Unfortunately, the rules were sad beyond belief since they were only a
vehicle (literally) to get players from one fantasy realm to another.
Just imagine if Speljjamer had been given a unique tone and flavor like
Planescape? Spelljammer would rule!
worlds. I would like to see the setting re-released with special racial
outlooks and attention to issues, such as "How would the outlook of
wildspacers differ from groundlings?" While a nice attempt the "scro"
race in the Dragon Annual was sorry. It is this type of treatment in
addition to Giant Space Hamsters that make most people laught at
Spelljammer.
campaign a unique flair?
--
The old grey donkey, Eeyore, stood by himself...sometimes he thought sadly to himself, "Why?" and sometimes he thought, "Wherefore?" and sometimes he didn't quite know what he was thinking about.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Some fun to be had for gaming nerds at http://users.deltanet.com/~mormegil
Khellendros the Blue
John Candy's Ghost <gra...@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>Mormegil of Ket (C. Walker) wrote:
>>
>> I wonder if anyone out there still uses the Spelljammer supplement.
>> Most folks have never heard of it. Oh well, I must be getting old.
>> Now to the point...I adored spelljammer for the spelljammers. The
>> ships were wonderful to look at and ship to ship combat was a thrill.
>> Unfortunately, the rules were sad beyond belief since they were only a
>> vehicle (literally) to get players from one fantasy realm to another.
>> Just imagine if Speljjamer had been given a unique tone and flavor like
>> Planescape? Spelljammer would rule!
>I got one word for you: Planejammer. Sends tingles up my spine. The
>infinite distances of the planes, the astral, and the other parts of the
>planes could be helped out by a planejammer. Skip portals, take more
>remote ones...the plying of trade routes is infinitely helped by
>planejammer ships. (One might even speculate that spelljammer ships are
>the by-products of planejammers.)
Hmm. Planejammer? Spelljammer, let's see, which one was that? Oh. The
one with the Crystal Spheres and all that. Was it any good? I never
played it but I read the Spelljammer series with Teldin Moore. That
was nice, very well done.
>> I think that spelljamming should be separate from pre published
>> worlds. I would like to see the setting re-released with special racial
>> outlooks and attention to issues, such as "How would the outlook of
>> wildspacers differ from groundlings?" While a nice attempt the "scro"
>> race in the Dragon Annual was sorry. It is this type of treatment in
>> addition to Giant Space Hamsters that make most people laught at
>> Spelljammer.
Definitely! I hate the thought of Spelljammers on Evermeet! Why should
it be on Evermeet on the Forgotten Realms! Why?!
>I always thought that the races in spelljammer went a _long_ way towards
>something I've harped on forever with TSR; standard AD&D races being
>treated in new ways. Elves that had a crumbling empire; _smart_
>goblinoids. It was 9/10ths of the inspiration behind a lot of my
>_terrestrial_ campaigns as well.
Crumbling empire? That's nothing new. The elves of Evermeet had an
empire once, but it crumbled, so that's nothing new. Smart goblinoids?
That's something, I always used 'em as cannon fodder.
>I'd like to see spelljammer II, with a PS facelift, and I'd even be
>willing to write it (hint, hint TSR! :-) ) but it'd be a real
>challenge. What _exactly_ would the flavour be? If you pull a
>Planescape II, you're going to get burned. The idea behind the first
>one was a sort of "chariots of the gods" attitude. Maybe a more Star
>Trek, TNG edge would be appropriate. There's always the Star Wars angle
>to take into consideration too. Planescape is fantasy-punk (and good,
>too!), but what would spelljammer be?
Yup. Agreed. I'd like more stories on Spelljammer too. Like the Teldin
Moore set. Those were good, especially the one by Elaine Cunningham
and the others.
>> Has anyone else dealt with these issues to give their spelljammer
>> campaign a unique flair?
>My own campaign took place on a terrestrial level (I haven't used it
>much since, but this is re-piquing my interest) so no, I haven't. But
>I'm as willing as the next guy to pick up the slack of a project.
>Shall we name a project leader?
Agreed.
>--
Khellendros the Tired and bookwormish Blue Dragon
PortalMaster and Storm Over Krynn
Careful plans made with a loyal ally are better than gold.
Leroy Van Camp III
Mormegil of Ket (C. Walker) (morm...@deltanet.com) wrote:
: I wonder if anyone out there still uses the Spelljammer supplement.
Yup. If it weren't for Spelljammer, there's a chance I wouldn't be
playing AD&D any more. I had left the game for others, most notably
GURPS. Not even 2nd Ed. brought me back. But I took a look at SJ and
fell in love with the concepts.
: Most folks have never heard of it. Oh well, I must be getting old.
Ohhh, I think most, at least here on r.g.f.dnd, have heard of it.
It's just that they don't like it. Fair enough, but sometimes the
arguements for why can be entertaining.
: Now to the point...I adored spelljammer for the spelljammers. The
: ships were wonderful to look at and ship to ship combat was a thrill.
I agree that the look of most of the 'jammers was a big part of the
fun, though later designs got lame (The Iambus? What where they
thinking?).
I also concur on space combat. It is the only such system I have
ever enjoyed. For example, in our Star Wars game I refuse to have my
character learn any spaceship skills, since it all bores me. The
difference with SJ, I feel, lies with the idea that the characters have
a more involved role, being out on exposed decks, casting spells, and
leading boarding actions (And we ain't talkin' single file through
the airlock, baby!)
: Unfortunately, the rules were sad beyond belief since they were only a
: vehicle (literally) to get players from one fantasy realm to another.
Which rules were you refering to? I rather liked the ship combat
rules, especially when they were cleaned up in the WCC.
The only system I disliked was the ship design system in WCC. But it
wasn;t hard to come up with my own modified version.
What other major rules were there?
As for SJ only being presented as a vehicle, I don't feel this is
wholly true. Afterall, most of the published adventures dealth with
happenings in space. Besides, a certain measure of this is bound to
happen, considering things.
I feel SJ can be used either way, and it would be nice if the set
addressed both options fully (that is, as it's own setting and a linking
setting).
: Just imagine if Speljjamer had been given a unique tone and flavor like
: Planescape? Spelljammer would rule!
I whole haertedly agree, and have been thinking about this for years.
I think giving it a distinct flavor would help, a la Planescape (though
not a copy, of course). Though many of the concepts in SJ were fresh and
new, the society itself was basically the same ol' thing.
: I think that spelljamming should be separate from pre published
: worlds.
Here, I have to disagree. I like the idea of mixing them. Hell, the
main reason I own any Greyhawk stuff is to have another detailed world for
the PC's to visit. It was originally the same with Mystara, though it
blossomed into much more.
Besides, it is amazingly easy to remove them from the setting, so
having them in there shouldn't be much of a problem.
: I would like to see the setting re-released with special racial
: outlooks and attention to issues, such as "How would the outlook of
: wildspacers differ from groundlings?"
Same here. But, in all honesty, it is unlikely to happem any time
soon.
: While a nice attempt the "scro"
: race in the Dragon Annual was sorry. It is this type of treatment in
: addition to Giant Space Hamsters that make most people laught at
: Spelljammer.
So, what didn't you like about the article? And what is wrong with
GSH's? Silly, yes, but easily removed if one doesn't like them.
And I, personally, couild care less if the SJ detractors don't like
'em. Even if a person decides to exclude them, the description was a
funny read.
: Has anyone else dealt with these issues to give their spelljammer
: campaign a unique flair?
I have made some some-what significant changes, but I haven't messed
around with the basic setting. I tend to let the differences come across
during play, through narrative, rther than writing them up.
Most of the changes I made are on specifics details, such as: Adding a
few types of larger (capital) ships, and the helms to use them, adding
fighter-type smaller crafts, and the helms to power them, plus a class of
elven pilots, cut off access to Krynn via the God Shield (IMHO, having
'jammers on Krynn is ludicrous, at least on the "official" Krynn), decided
that the elven Spirit Warrior constructs were still used regularly, and so
on.
Have you tried the SJ mailing list? Mostly dead, but I think if
someone come forward with something new to talk about the list would come
back alive for a time.
Plus, there will always be people here on r.g.f.dnd, such as myself,
willing to talk of it.
owner-m...@io.com Leroy Van Camp III van...@uidaho.edu
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"No Law, no Chaos, just magma in your shorts, or obsidian in your eye."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Candy's Ghost, on rec.games.frp.dnd
Mormegil of Ket (C. Walker)
> I got one word for you: Planejammer. Sends tingles up my spine. The
> infinite distances of the planes, the astral, and the other parts of the
> planes could be helped out by a planejammer.
I really like this idea. When reading about the battle plane of
Acheron I realized spelljammers would be perfect. Some orcs could find
some damaged ships in the Mines of Marsellin and then rampage across the
plane, wreaking havoc on the Mercykillers. Also, Doomguard pirates on a
'jammer would rule.
> Elves that had a crumbling empire; _smart_
> goblinoids. It was 9/10ths of the inspiration behind a lot of my
> _terrestrial_ campaigns as well.
>
I have pondered this elven issue a few times my self. Elven Armada
sounds cool, but what makes it tick? My mind wandered to Grey Elves and
how they might be given some character. I decided to tweak them a bit
with a Michael Moorcok Melnibonean flavor. I decided that the vast
stretches of Wildspace and the resulting isolation had caused many Grey
Elves to go a bit loopy. Their ships are still beautiful, but their minds
and actions are often cruel and insane to outsiders. One never knows what
to expect when a man 'o War comes to port...
I have also played with spelljamming helms, creating all sorts of
strange side effects. remmebr the navigators from Dune and how they were
kinda funny lookin' and addicted to spice? I have been kicking ideas
around on how to create quirks that spelljamming mgaes develop after
constant exposure to a helm.
Last but not least, I have to say that I just love the ideas of
Illithids in Wildspace. With their squid faces and brain sucking
addictions they remind me of 1950s aliens from space movies. I
Last,last but not least...I have integrated Spelljammer into my own
campaign by having people spot "strange lights in the sky" and the
occasional alien craft crash that is quickly covered up by dark agents of
the king. Mulder! Scully! Get your longswords, its the Knights in
Black!
woodelf
In article <mormegil-261...@enc0210.deltanet.com>,
morm...@deltanet.com (Mormegil of Ket (C. Walker)) wrote:
> I wonder if anyone out there still uses the Spelljammer supplement.
> Most folks have never heard of it. Oh well, I must be getting old.
> Now to the point...I adored spelljammer for the spelljammers. The
> ships were wonderful to look at and ship to ship combat was a thrill.
> Unfortunately, the rules were sad beyond belief since they were only a
> vehicle (literally) to get players from one fantasy realm to another.
> Just imagine if Speljjamer had been given a unique tone and flavor like
> Planescape? Spelljammer would rule!
> I think that spelljamming should be separate from pre published
> worlds. I would like to see the setting re-released with special racial
> outlooks and attention to issues, such as "How would the outlook of
> wildspacers differ from groundlings?" While a nice attempt the "scro"
> race in the Dragon Annual was sorry. It is this type of treatment in
> addition to Giant Space Hamsters that make most people laught at
> Spelljammer.
> Has anyone else dealt with these issues to give their spelljammer
> campaign a unique flair?
it was, but a much subtler tone than planescape. personally, i like that
better: it's there, but not omnipresent. after all, without a unifying
element (like sigil), a finite number of locational characters (only 16
outer planes), or a consistent means of connecting them (the
gates/portals/conduits) space society should be even less consistent than
planar society. the racial outlooks you're looking for are there, in the
MC appendices, and the Complete Spacefarer's Handbook, not to mention
scattered throughout the basic box and numerous supplements and dragon
articles. i thought the scro attempt was pretty good, but i'm still ticked
at them overlooking the "obvious" badguys: illithid. i don't find either
beholders or neogi convincing master badguys; any race that has no
manipulative limbs, yet needs them for some reason(s), just doesn't fly for
me.
IMHO, what they failed to explore with SJ was the original. we didn't need
tie-ins with the established campaign worlds. we needed more Under a Dark
Fist (title?) and Astromundi Cluster. SJ was the perfect excuse to create
any kind of world you wanted, and have a method and reason for the PCs to
interact with it (or originate within it). where *do* the plasmoids come
from, and what is their homeworld like? however, outside of hte sketchy
world descriptions in Under a Dark Fist and Crystal Spheres, and a couple
of hte other adventures, all we really got was the Rock of Bral (good but
small scope) and Astromundi. Astromundi began to show the possibilities,
but only barely scratched their surface. tying this in to the above, i
don't think SJ needs *a* unique flavor. it needs dozens of them, at least.
each race that is big enough or isolated enough to have (semi-)autonomous
cultural development should have a different flavor.
as for continuing support, i think we'll have to settle for hte 'net and
"campaign classics" in Dragon.
woodelf
nbar...@students.wisc.edu
woo...@yar.cs.wisc.edu
http://dax.cs.wisc.edu/~woodelf
No dictator, no invader, can hold an imprisoned population by force of
arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need
for freedom. Against that power, governments and tyrants and armies can
not stand....Though it take a thousand years, we will be free. --G'Kar
woodelf
> I got one word for you: Planejammer. Sends tingles up my spine. The
> infinite distances of the planes, the astral, and the other parts of the
> planes could be helped out by a planejammer. Skip portals, take more
> remote ones...the plying of trade routes is infinitely helped by
> planejammer ships. (One might even speculate that spelljammer ships are
> the by-products of planejammers.)
they're called AstralJammers. in Dragon a few years ago. wonderfully
done. the author was clearly inspired by SpellJammers, and i believe the
character that invented them was also. of course, they were made to fit a
MoP conception of hte outer planes,a s that was all that existed at the
time. the guy powered them with four illithid brains in parallel.
> I always thought that the races in spelljammer went a _long_ way towards
> something I've harped on forever with TSR; standard AD&D races being
> treated in new ways. Elves that had a crumbling empire; _smart_
> goblinoids. It was 9/10ths of the inspiration behind a lot of my
> _terrestrial_ campaigns as well.
> I'd like to see spelljammer II, with a PS facelift, and I'd even be
> willing to write it (hint, hint TSR! :-) ) but it'd be a real
> challenge. What _exactly_ would the flavour be? If you pull a
> Planescape II, you're going to get burned. The idea behind the first
> one was a sort of "chariots of the gods" attitude. Maybe a more Star
> Trek, TNG edge would be appropriate. There's always the Star Wars angle
> to take into consideration too. Planescape is fantasy-punk (and good,
> too!), but what would spelljammer be?
i see it as very victorian, sharing a lot of the feel with Space: 1889,
with equal parts high-seas carribean pirate romp and Age of Discovery
exploration, but, obviously, more fantastic. it's hard to sum up, but it's
nearly the antithesis of Star Trek:TNG. it's not quite original 'Trek or
Star Wars, either. the only mood-appropriate fiction that comes to mind is
LeGuin's SF (the various hainish novels, and the Word for World is Forest,
and Vaster than Empires and More Slow, etc.). if i were defining the mood,
it would be one of awe and discovery. there would be vast things in the
universe that no one understood, and many that no one is even aware of.
frex, lumineaux, focoids, dweomerborn, constellates, magistars, and the
like are living extensions of the very multiverse, which should cause
philosophers to rethink the nature of hte universe. an infinite number of
crystal spheres, bobbing in an infinite ocean of phlogiston, with each
different from all of the rest. spelljamming is both a fundamental basis
of a certain society, and a new wonder for many other societies.
misconceptions are rife, partly through ignorance and the vastness of
space, and partly through disinformation and secrecy. the power players
(elves, humanoids, the Path & the Way, the beholder nations, the neogi,
etc.) are merely the obvious powers. others behind the scenes (some
obvious--arcane, some not--illithid) are the real forces to reckon with.
it is the motives and goals of these groups that actually drive space
society, to the degree that anything can have a noticable affect across the
vast reaches of space.
hey, epiphany! what about stealing a bit: what if the obvious "good guys"
and "bad guys" (elves and humanoids, respectively) are quite literally
pawns. behind the scenes are a pair (or more) of far older, possibly more
powerful, races pulling *everybody's* strings, a la Shadows and Vorlons.
the Arcane don't really want to interfere, and so simply serve as new
peoples' and races' gateway to the new society, treating all equally. they
believe that the proper thing is to let the races deal with their
differences however they wish, whether it be through conflict or concord,
violence or communication. the Lost Ones were one of these old races,
isolationists who strove to create life, but instead found death at the
hands of hte Clockwork Horrors they created. dizantar are likely
constructs, created by one of hte arcane's rivals many millenia ago
(perhaps the Lost Ones?). or perhaps the Lost Ones originally created the
dizantar as guardians, but the dizantar now blame the arcane for not
rescuing their masters? the Gonn are one of the more alien (to humanoids)
old races, drifting through space singing their songs of peace and
otherwise helping those in need. the Great Dreamers are one of the few old
races to succesfully undertake to be creators; they have seen to it that
humanoid is not the only common sentient life shape throughout the many
spheres. the Reigar, of course, are one of the old ones, and possibly a
creator race, responsible for at least a few of the races they are credited
with creating. the illithid, being so different from all of hte other
creatures of the known spheres, likely either are an old race themselves,
or descendents of one, hitherto unknown.
> My own campaign took place on a terrestrial level (I haven't used it
> much since, but this is re-piquing my interest) so no, I haven't. But
> I'm as willing as the next guy to pick up the slack of a project.
i got dibs on illithid! i've been working for the last couple of years to
bring back their glory from the 1st ed, and rescue them from their seeming
ferengi-like fate in SJ (but without actually contradicting any published
materials).
> Shall we name a project leader?
just do me a favor, and include my via email (i don't get on r.g.f.dnd as
much as i'd like).
I was told by the people running that way that I could find the
Technomages here. --Vir Koto
Christian Seitz
In article <mormegil-261...@enc0210.deltanet.com>,
morm...@deltanet.com (Mormegil of Ket (C. Walker)) wrote:
> I wonder if anyone out there still uses the Spelljammer supplement.
> Most folks have never heard of it. Oh well, I must be getting old.
> Now to the point...I adored spelljammer for the spelljammers. The
> ships were wonderful to look at and ship to ship combat was a thrill.
> Unfortunately, the rules were sad beyond belief since they were only a
> vehicle (literally) to get players from one fantasy realm to another.
> Just imagine if Speljjamer had been given a unique tone and flavor like
> Planescape? Spelljammer would rule!
> I think that spelljamming should be separate from pre published
> worlds. I would like to see the setting re-released with special racial
> outlooks and attention to issues, such as "How would the outlook of
> wildspacers differ from groundlings?" While a nice attempt the "scro"
> race in the Dragon Annual was sorry. It is this type of treatment in
> addition to Giant Space Hamsters that make most people laught at
> Spelljammer.
> Has anyone else dealt with these issues to give their spelljammer
> campaign a unique flair?
I think the basic idea behind spelljammer itself has a unique flair. You
can place almost anything in the spelljammer campaign. I have dinosaur age
worlds up to modern day worlds. The only bad thing on spelljammer is that
the campaign isn't detailed enough. There should be more information about
the spacefearing nations. The existance of a sourcebook um well let us
name it "the nations of spelljammer" would be a great help for any
spelljammer DM. Without enough non rules campaign material a DM has to
invest much time in creating information about the arcane , neogi , mind
flayer ... - It requires much more time than a self created standard
campaign world.
I have to agree with you that the spelljamming rules are unbelivable. But
I think this problem can be handeled with a few changes to the physics of
spelljammer.
The method how gravitiy is handeled in spelljammer is idiotic. Let us
change this to the spelljammer helm is able to simulate normal gravity
when active. With out an active spelljammer helm the ship is unable to
maintain it own gravity. Let us use the weapon stats from C&T for
spelljammmer weapons with the following modifications.
Divide the range by 10 to get the range in hex fields e.g. a light cannon
would have a range of 2/5/9 hexfields. All indirectfire engine shots count
as long range. 1 spelljammer space combat round = 3 normal combat rounds.
All attack rolls are made against the ship armor rating not against AC 10
or AC 0.
No size to hit bonus in spacecombat.
I think I know why many people dislike spelljammer - the mobility and
firepower of the characters is a real challenge for any DM. Several
creatures which are hard to impossible to defeat for a groundling party
are easy prey for a party with their own spelljammer ship. A dragon(non
space version) isn't that dangerous when you can outfly and outrange him.
You need to be carefull with intersphere wars. Your campaign can will be
in BIG trouble when the PC play a mayor role in the war - and fail. A
prime example for such a war is the TSR module under the dark fist. The
only logical consequence for a PC failture(non munchkin PC of the
recommended level WILL fail this one) in this module is an assault on
toril by vodoni forces. The vondoni empire has a not to bad chance in
defeating the main spelljammer nations on toril and in a few year all of
toril will fall under the iron fist of the vodini emperor. You think this
is impossible? Well let me give you the stats of some vodoni forces.
7HD werewolf berserker type creatures 3(6) or 1 attack. +1 weapons to hit
equiped with longswords +1. 10HD werewolf creature with better damage
rolls.
Vodoni Breeders 7-9th level fighters and 11-18th level transmuters with
bracers of defence, ring & cloak of protection , a defender sword and a
staff od power.
The Elven Armadas doesn't stand a chance against the vodoni hunter-killer
vessels. The hunter-kiiler outturns and outranges the armada with ease.
Christian Seitz
Truls Rostrup
Christian Seitz (se...@krick.com) wrote:
: the campaign isn't detailed enough. There should be more information about
: the spacefearing nations. The existance of a sourcebook um well let us
: name it "the nations of spelljammer" would be a great help for any
Agreed.
: creatures which are hard to impossible to defeat for a groundling party
: are easy prey for a party with their own spelljammer ship. A dragon(non
: space version) isn't that dangerous when you can outfly and outrange him.
Modify the MR of SJ ships in atmospheres, and remember that dragons often
have spells, and can increase MR as well.
: You need to be carefull with intersphere wars. Your campaign can will be
: in BIG trouble when the PC play a mayor role in the war - and fail. A
: prime example for such a war is the TSR module under the dark fist. The
: only logical consequence for a PC failture(non munchkin PC of the
: recommended level WILL fail this one) in this module is an assault on
Yup, that module was extremely hard, especially the last few combats. My
party were certain to be toasted (by ex 120 hp fireballs etc) if it
hadn't been for the bard's ingenious use of a Handkerchief of Charming
(no save!) on Mongrelle after a few rounds. Even so, only 2 out of 6 PCs
survived the cataclysmic events.
--
Truls Rostrup / ss...@alf.uib.no
--<=>--
"You're obliged to pretend respect for people and institutions you think
absurd. You live attached in a cowardly fashion to moral and social
conventions you despise, condemn, and know lack all foundation. It is that
permanent contradiction between your ideas and all the dead formalities
and vain pretenses of your civilization which makes you sad, troubled and
unbalanced. In that intolerable conflict you lose all joy of life and all
feeling of personality, because at every moment they suppress and restrain
and check the free play of your powers. That's the poisoned and mortal
wound of the civilized world"
"The Torture Garden" - Octave Mirbeau
--<=>--
Tristrim Peter Murnane
Mormegil of Ket (C. Walker) (morm...@deltanet.com) wrote:
: I wonder if anyone out there still uses the Spelljammer supplement.
: Most folks have never heard of it. Oh well, I must be getting old.
: Now to the point...I adored spelljammer for the spelljammers. The
: ships were wonderful to look at and ship to ship combat was a thrill.
: Unfortunately, the rules were sad beyond belief since they were only a
: vehicle (literally) to get players from one fantasy realm to another.
: Just imagine if Speljjamer had been given a unique tone and flavor like
: Planescape? Spelljammer would rule!
I have been a DM in Spelljammer for about two years, going on
three as of the end of this year. Now when I heard that Spelljammer was
going to be discontinued I went out and got every bit of SJ matirial I
could lay my hands on. Have you heard of: The Astromundi Cluster? How
about the others? Ie, Faeriespace, Darkspace, Greatspace or Herospace? I
dout it but please if you can, prove me otherwise. As for flavor and race
detail, do you know that in The Astromundi Cluster Neogi are the good
guys? How would you like to play a Grommon or Giff? Possibly a Dracon is
more your style? As for the Giant Space Hamster (the greatest monster EVER
created!!) the shear range of temperament, ability, amerment and general
weirdness has been detailed in at least five places I can remember over te
last year and a half.
As Mel Brooks said 'Politics, politics, politics'. If you have
seen the Spelljammer Boxed set FOR the actual ship 'The Legend Of The
Spelljammer' you may have realised that even on this one vessel in the
small city on its back you have more backstabbing, double dealing,
sculdugery, assasination attempts, stealing, lieing and general nastyness
like that you would soon realise that just to servive in some places you
need not only to be ready with your sword, you also have to have such a
grasp on all of the above (and more) that it makes Zhentil Keep look like
a Kender picknic (Kender have also made it into SJ along with the Tinker
Gnomes).
You want dungeon hacking? Well you can shove Underdark where the
sun don't shine (See Darkspace, a real dark, dark, dark place. Overlord a
16th level vampie who had the sun put out when he got really anoyed). In
the Ravenger, for instance, when you enter it you just don't take your
horse, you take the entire ship! Imagine a place where you can put Babalon
5 in one of the coridors, THIS PLACE IS BIG. It's a small moon that will
take a lot more than one X-Wing, a new faced piolet and two stinking
torpedoes to kill.
As was mentioned before, the ship to ship combat is good yes. Yoy
did not however mention how much fun it can be stuffing the heavy weapons
(Heavy seige balista etc..) and bording a ship. Imagine, you, sitting on
your vessel, a lookout calls out "Captain, Beholder Tyrant Ship coming
declocking directly ABOVE". Then the stern castle disapears as the
colective disintergration beans slice into your ship the same way a Shadow
Ships lazer cuts into a Norn Battle Cruiser. Boarding lines, six shooters,
grappling hooks, these are a tiny amount of boarding equipment you can
fight with (not to mention what the Tinker Gnomes come up with,
frightening stuff). Of course, boarding actions do not always happen
straight on, no, 90 degrees streight up, from underneath the ship (just
like jaws but oh so much worse). If a bigger ship than yours gets too
close the lighter ship (say yours) turns to the same alinment to the enemy
ship. This means if your ship was rammed from underneath, your ship would
violently shift to match the gravity plane of the enemy. Nasty stuff but a
lot of fun for the bored DM or someone who wants to have a good laugh.
Now I have gone on a bit, but this thing about no background is
simply not true, all you have to do is look in the right places. I have.
It just becomes that more difficult when a product line is discontinued.
Mabey Spelljammer will come back, I don't know but we shall see.
Joshua Jarvis
Mormegil of Ket (C. Walker) wrote:
>
> In article <329B9B...@frontiernet.net>, gra...@frontiernet.net wrote:
>
> > I got one word for you: Planejammer. Sends tingles up my spine. The
> > infinite distances of the planes, the astral, and the other parts of the
> > planes could be helped out by a planejammer.
>
> Acheron I realized spelljammers would be perfect. Some orcs could find
> some damaged ships in the Mines of Marsellin and then rampage across the
> plane, wreaking havoc on the Mercykillers. Also, Doomguard pirates on a
> 'jammer would rule.
Also Gehennna would be intersting, their has to be more in that infinite
plane
(a plane has to be infinite in at least one direction or it's a
demiplane) than
four volcanos or the plane is a literal waste of space.
>
> > Elves that had a crumbling empire; _smart_
> > goblinoids. It was 9/10ths of the inspiration behind a lot of my
> > _terrestrial_ campaigns as well.
I used smart goblinoids before, what I don't like about spelljammers
definition of
goblinoids is that it includes ogres which are a giantish race.
I usually don't like when they change a game on you but I would
appreciate a spelljammer
reboot. Perhaps use the races, classes, and proficiencies from the
complete spacefarers
hanbook, the spelljammer rules (and lizardman race) from the origional
boxed set, Ships
from both the origional boxed set and lost ships, and a DM's screen or
simplified yet
just as versitile ship rules (I trimmed the rules a bit to help game
play) also use the
creatures from the first two compeniums and all the spelljammer products
(modules, books, boxed sets, ect.) in a spelljammer compendium. Also a
ship compendium would be
interesting. Spelljammer had a unique feel to it on one side are
slavers, xenophobes,
and brainsucking aliens and on the otherside giant space hamsters, lhee
dogs and other
humorous creatures giving it an unpredictable feel. Also you can adapt
the game to fit
in almost any sci-fi theme in this sci-fantasy setting (star wars, star
trek, X-Files
for planetbound adventures, planet of the apes (I planned a game called
THE APES OF
WRATH that I never ran based on it, ect.)
woodelf
In article <seitz-29119...@2krick133.krick.com>, se...@krick.com
(Christian Seitz) wrote:
> I have to agree with you that the spelljamming rules are unbelivable. But
> I think this problem can be handeled with a few changes to the physics of
> spelljammer.
>
> The method how gravitiy is handeled in spelljammer is idiotic. Let us
> change this to the spelljammer helm is able to simulate normal gravity
> when active. With out an active spelljammer helm the ship is unable to
> maintain it own gravity. Let us use the weapon stats from C&T for
> spelljammmer weapons with the following modifications.
> Divide the range by 10 to get the range in hex fields e.g. a light cannon
> would have a range of 2/5/9 hexfields. All indirectfire engine shots count
> as long range. 1 spelljammer space combat round = 3 normal combat rounds.
> All attack rolls are made against the ship armor rating not against AC 10
> or AC 0.
> No size to hit bonus in spacecombat.
just my opinion, but...
the changes you've proposed would really kill spelljammer. it's *supposed*
to be fanciful. if you want sensible physics, play Traveller, or at least
use the space rules from D&D (published in the Voyage of the Princess Ark
series in Dragon). "physics" as depicted in SpellJammer is internally
consistent and fun, whch are the most important things. the fact that they
don't make sense on external examination doesn't matter. the laws are
abuild to be convenient for play, so that the environment, while difficult,
isn't nearly as hostile as real space, allowing more of the attention to be
directed to the story laid on top of the setting.
Rules of combat older than contact with other races. Did not mention
aliens. Rules change caught up in committee. --ex-Green Drazi Leader
Chip Marshall
>> I have to agree with you that the spelljamming rules are unbelivable. But
>> I think this problem can be handeled with a few changes to the physics of
>> spelljammer.
>
>the changes you've proposed would really kill spelljammer. it's *supposed*
>to be fanciful. if you want sensible physics, play Traveller, or at least
>use the space rules from D&D (published in the Voyage of the Princess Ark
>series in Dragon). "physics" as depicted in SpellJammer is internally
>consistent and fun, whch are the most important things. the fact that they
>don't make sense on external examination doesn't matter. the laws are
>abuild to be convenient for play, so that the environment, while difficult,
>isn't nearly as hostile as real space, allowing more of the attention to be
>directed to the story laid on top of the setting.
If I remember correctly, in the Introduction to one of the Spelljammer books
it states that the physics were not meant to be at all normally correct.
--
Chip Marshall <ch...@jlc.net>
http://www.jlc.net/~chip/
cmar...@mhs.milford.k12.nh.us
Key fingerprint = BA B1 8E 14 60 C6 10 32 18 24 C6 F1 D5 CC 80 52
woodelf
> If I remember correctly, in the Introduction to one of the Spelljammer books
> it states that the physics were not meant to be at all normally correct.
that's exactly what i said: they don't stand up to external standards, but
make perfect sense on their own.
It's like I've always said, you can get more with a kind word and a
2'x4' than a kind word. --Marcus Cole
dua...@aol.com
But
> I think this problem can be handeled with a few changes to the physics
of
> spelljammer.
It is obviously necessary for Spelljammer to take some liberties with
real-life physics in order to apply space travel to D&D. The distances
that weapon crews are supposed to accurately shoot catapults and ballistae
for example (IMO) defy suspension of disbelief. Gravity, I have no real
problem with although it could use a bit of fine-tuning. Spelljammer
needs to be worked over but on the whole it's attempts at "fantasy"
physics came off fairly well.
From: nbar...@students.wisc.edu (woodelf)
>just my opinion, but...
>the changes you've proposed would really kill spelljammer. it's
*supposed*
>to be fanciful. if you want sensible physics, play Traveller, or at
least
>use the space rules from D&D (published in the Voyage of the Princess Ark
>series in Dragon). "physics" as depicted in SpellJammer is internally
>consistent and fun, whch are the most important things. the fact that
they
>don't make sense on external examination doesn't matter. the laws are
>abuild to be convenient for play, so that the environment, while
difficult,
>isn't nearly as hostile as real space, allowing more of the attention to
be
>directed to the story laid on top of the setting.
Well I certainly wouldn't go so far as to say that they are
"internally consistent". If the truth be told Spelljammer systems have
more holes in them than Swiss cheese. There IS a need for even "fantasy"
physics to make some sort of sense on external examination. While
Spelljammer did fairly well it does cry out for further refinement.
Spelljammer physics does allow for easy play but it requires an
extra-heaping helping of suspension of disbelief to work. My feeling is
that with a little more believability/consistency the setting will fuel
the story even further.
Downtime
aka Duane VanderPol
"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers" - Thomas Watson, IBM Chairman, 1943
Michael Sandy
The problem I have with spelljammer is that it is hard to extrapolate
the physics of the spelljammer world beyond what is in the books.
For example, how far can one spot ships in Spelljammer? Is it possible
to detect ships _before_ you break out of jamming speed?
If jamming works as I think it does, here is a new ship design feature
The Ginko Tail. The Ginko Tail is a large ballast object that brings
a small ship up to the maximum weight movable by its helm. If attacked
in Wild Space, the tail is dropped off and the ship accelerates as
fast as possible away from its attacker. The objective would be to
get out of the gravitational range of the ginko Tail before one's
opponent does, hopefully getting a lead in getting to jamming speed.
Considering the hazard of approaching a ship with bad air, are there
spells like "Detect Air", with a range enough to be useful?
Is there a way of using the helm to seal the air envelope?
If one is using the helm to ameliorate some enviromental effect, like
gravity or air, can one change helmsmen?
The problem with creating house rules for every problem is that Players,
especially those playing characters extremely experienced in ship handling,
should be able to figure out what works and what doesn't without
resorting to arbitrary GM rules.
Especially in those not infrequent situations where the GM wants a
particular encounter. If your GM changes the ship spotting house
rules depending on whether the PCs are smuggling goods or catching
smugglers, you have a problem.
Some amusing ideas:
The Wild space Canary: This is a small bird-like animal which, like the
Kindoori dwells in wild space. They can be domesticated, used as (slow)
messenger pigeon (well below jamming speeds), used to scout ships and
planetoids and other features of wildspace. They are often equiped with
small harnesses with Continual Light lanterns, (shielded so it doesn't
blind the Wild Space Canary) in order to scout anti-magic Sargassos.
A Wild Space Canary Figurine of Wonderous Power. Some of the Onyx Dog of
Wildspace.
Whole ecosystems could be set up in the corpse of a Kindoori, or a living
one.
Michael Sandy
woodelf
In article <57socc$o...@kira.peak.org>, meh...@kira.peak.org (Michael Sandy)
wrote:
> The problem I have with spelljammer is that it is hard to extrapolate
> the physics of the spelljammer world beyond what is in the books.
>
> For example, how far can one spot ships in Spelljammer? Is it possible
> to detect ships _before_ you break out of jamming speed?
the first would be dependent on the wildspace you are in, and is defined
for phlogiston. each wildspace is different. i believe that you can
detect other ships witha spell, and perhaps just by sitting in the helm;
it's been a while since i read the rules.
> The Ginko Tail. The Ginko Tail is a large ballast object that brings
> a small ship up to the maximum weight movable by its helm. If attacked
> in Wild Space, the tail is dropped off and the ship accelerates as
> fast as possible away from its attacker. The objective would be to
> get out of the gravitational range of the ginko Tail before one's
> opponent does, hopefully getting a lead in getting to jamming speed.
since all helms can move either 100 or 50 tons (?; whatever the limit is
for a minor helm), i don't see how this would help. if the small ship can
move it, it must be under 100 tons, so it won't have a significant enough
gravitational field to mess up the pursuer much, and the pursuer should be
able to fairly easily avoid something as small as a stationary <100t
object. and it's small enough that anybody can go to 'jamming speeds
within its gravitational field. either you misunderstand how the rules
work, or i'm missing your intended benefit.
> Considering the hazard of approaching a ship with bad air, are there
> spells like "Detect Air", with a range enough to be useful?
> Is there a way of using the helm to seal the air envelope?
yes; don't know the range off hand. sealing the air envelope sounds like a
neat trick (around 3rd level spell, or so).
> If one is using the helm to ameliorate some enviromental effect, like
> gravity or air, can one change helmsmen?
the helm has no effect on either air or gravity.
> The problem with creating house rules for every problem is that Players,
> especially those playing characters extremely experienced in ship handling,
> should be able to figure out what works and what doesn't without
> resorting to arbitrary GM rules.
yes, if everybody fills in the gaps i the logic on their own, you could
have problems. but so far, i don't see an example of a loophole.
The Universe is governed by the complex interweaving of three things:
matter, energy, and enlightened self-interest. --G'Kar
Chip Marshall
woodelf <nbar...@students.wisc.edu> wrote:
>> The Ginko Tail. The Ginko Tail is a large ballast object that brings
>> a small ship up to the maximum weight movable by its helm. If attacked
>> in Wild Space, the tail is dropped off and the ship accelerates as
>> fast as possible away from its attacker. The objective would be to
>> get out of the gravitational range of the ginko Tail before one's
>> opponent does, hopefully getting a lead in getting to jamming speed.
>
>since all helms can move either 100 or 50 tons (?; whatever the limit is
>for a minor helm), i don't see how this would help. if the small ship can
>move it, it must be under 100 tons, so it won't have a significant enough
>gravitational field to mess up the pursuer much, and the pursuer should be
>able to fairly easily avoid something as small as a stationary <100t
>object. and it's small enough that anybody can go to 'jamming speeds
>within its gravitational field. either you misunderstand how the rules
>work, or i'm missing your intended benefit.
Perhaps if it could magically grow to a larger mass after being dropped off,
like a large gravity bomb of sorts, then it would be useful. It also wouldn't
have to max out the limits of the host helm.
Paul Westermeyerr
In article <57ghon$f...@newshound.csrv.uidaho.edu>,
van...@harrier.csrv.uidaho.edu (Leroy Van Camp III) wrote:
> Have you tried the SJ mailing list? Mostly dead, but I think if
> someone come forward with something new to talk about the list would come
> back alive for a time.
> Plus, there will always be people here on r.g.f.dnd, such as myself,
> willing to talk of it.
We're not dead, we're just discriminating:) Seriously, what I love about
the SJ list is the lack of "snow" fogging up the list. There may not be
many posts, but most of those that happen are game ideas I can directly
use. Very little "How does stoneskin work again?" on that list! Perhaps
because most of the listmembers are old AD&D hands.
I'd highly reccomend the list to anyone.
(Note, this is _not_ a flame at Mr Van Camp who is a respected poster to
the SJ list:))
--
From:
Paul Westermeyer wester...@osu.edu
"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does
not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss
also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche _Beyond Good and Evil_
rdit...@forest.drew.edu
In article <57socc$o...@kira.peak.org>, meh...@kira.peak.org (Michael Sandy) writes:
> The problem I have with spelljammer is that it is hard to extrapolate
> the physics of the spelljammer world beyond what is in the books.
>
> For example, how far can one spot ships in Spelljammer? Is it possible
> to detect ships _before_ you break out of jamming speed?
Check the generic rules on D&D vision in the DMG.
>
>
> If jamming works as I think it does, here is a new ship design feature
>
> a small ship up to the maximum weight movable by its helm. If attacked
> in Wild Space, the tail is dropped off and the ship accelerates as
> fast as possible away from its attacker. The objective would be to
> get out of the gravitational range of the ginko Tail before one's
> opponent does, hopefully getting a lead in getting to jamming speed.
a function of the magician in the helm and the type of helm. Dropping the
tail would probably make you more manuverable, which would help. However,
even travelling at the same speed you might clear the gravity well of the
tail first. I take it back it might work. I'd just have to do some math.
>
>
>
> Considering the hazard of approaching a ship with bad air, are there
> spells like "Detect Air", with a range enough to be useful?
> Is there a way of using the helm to seal the air envelope?
Dont' know about the detect air spell, but ships have to come
pretty close for their air to mingle so such a spell could be created.
> If one is using the helm to ameliorate some enviromental effect, like
> gravity or air, can one change helmsmen?
The helm had nothing to do with air or gravity. Both are there as
a function of the mass of the object, i.e. air is attracted to the body
and travels with it. An object the size of the ship has sufficent air and
gravity to also men to live and function normally. Of course this brings
up the point of whether you weigh more on heavier ships, but I'm not going
there.
>
> The problem with creating house rules for every problem is that Players,
> especially those playing characters extremely experienced in ship handling,
> should be able to figure out what works and what doesn't without
> resorting to arbitrary GM rules.
>
> Especially in those not infrequent situations where the GM wants a
> particular encounter. If your GM changes the ship spotting house
> rules depending on whether the PCs are smuggling goods or catching
> smugglers, you have a problem.
Agreed, but most of your points are covered in the game in general
if not in the Spelljammer books.
>
>
> Some amusing ideas:
> The Wild space Canary: This is a small bird-like animal which, like the
> Kindoori dwells in wild space. They can be domesticated, used as (slow)
> messenger pigeon (well below jamming speeds), used to scout ships and
> planetoids and other features of wildspace. They are often equiped with
> small harnesses with Continual Light lanterns, (shielded so it doesn't
> blind the Wild Space Canary) in order to scout anti-magic Sargassos.
>
> A Wild Space Canary Figurine of Wonderous Power. Some of the Onyx Dog of
> Wildspace.
>
> Whole ecosystems could be set up in the corpse of a Kindoori, or a living
> one.
>
> Michael Sandy
All the ideas I like. The ecosystem would be a bit much to use
but I've got to see the look on my party's face when delivered a message
by Space Canary!
-- Rick
rdit...@forest.drew.edu
ideas portrayed in Spelljammer are not as far fetched as you might think.
They match very well with the teachings of Aristotle, who was the authority
on this sort of thing for close to two thousand years until Newton
developed the theory of motion in his spare time. So basically the
creators of Spelljammer, with some knowledge of this I would guess as the
similarities are too close in some places to be a coincidence, took what
would have been the beliefs of the time, modifed them a bit for game play
purposes, and made them real. They only look really odd from our modern
viewpoint of things.
That having been said, I agree some slight refinesment of the
rules are needed, but on hte whole it makes wildspace a truly new place
where even such basic things as gravity are different from back home!
Truly a shock to the I know everything players.
-- Rick
rdit...@forest.drew.edu
In article <seitz-29119...@2krick133.krick.com>, se...@krick.com (Christian Seitz) writes:
> In article <mormegil-261...@enc0210.deltanet.com>,
>
>> I wonder if anyone out there still uses the Spelljammer supplement.
>> Most folks have never heard of it. Oh well, I must be getting old.
>> Now to the point...I adored spelljammer for the spelljammers. The
>> ships were wonderful to look at and ship to ship combat was a thrill.
>> Unfortunately, the rules were sad beyond belief since they were only a
>> vehicle (literally) to get players from one fantasy realm to another.
>> Just imagine if Speljjamer had been given a unique tone and flavor like
>> Planescape? Spelljammer would rule!
>> worlds. I would like to see the setting re-released with special racial
>> outlooks and attention to issues, such as "How would the outlook of
>> wildspacers differ from groundlings?" While a nice attempt the "scro"
>> race in the Dragon Annual was sorry. It is this type of treatment in
>> addition to Giant Space Hamsters that make most people laught at
>> Spelljammer.
First off, there are many supplements, Lost Worlds, Space Lairs,
and a few others that detail a myriad of new worlds and races to tinker
with.
Second I would recommend reading the Cloakmaster cycle, a five book
set which has the main character contact half a dozen space empires many
planets and races, and gives the flavor of seadog/sci-fi adventuring that
Spelljammer could be, where the vastness of space is as interesting as the
exotic ports of call.
>> Has anyone else dealt with these issues to give their spelljammer
>> campaign a unique flair?
>
> I think the basic idea behind spelljammer itself has a unique flair. You
> can place almost anything in the spelljammer campaign. I have dinosaur age
> worlds up to modern day worlds. The only bad thing on spelljammer is that
> the campaign isn't detailed enough. There should be more information about
> the spacefearing nations. The existance of a sourcebook um well let us
> name it "the nations of spelljammer" would be a great help for any
> spelljammer DM. Without enough non rules campaign material a DM has to
> invest much time in creating information about the arcane , neogi , mind
> flayer ... - It requires much more time than a self created standard
> campaign world.
Very true, thinking interstellar is very difficult, but mos tof
the modules out give you tastes of the other races operate in the
microscale which can be extrapolated, and others such as Under the Dark
Fist or the Second Unhuman Wars (forget the real title but its about this)
shows you what battle fleets are like. From the sources I read, it does
not sounds like there are truly empires floating around around, but loose
confederations of independant planets. Nations like the Vodoni Empire and
fleets seen in the Unhuman wars were rare things seen once. The general
reaction seemed to be "My God! They did that?" At least that's my
interpretation.
> I have to agree with you that the spelljamming rules are unbelivable. But
> I think this problem can be handeled with a few changes to the physics of
> spelljammer.
>
> The method how gravitiy is handeled in spelljammer is idiotic. Let us
> change this to the spelljammer helm is able to simulate normal gravity
> when active. With out an active spelljammer helm the ship is unable to
> maintain it own gravity. Let us use the weapon stats from C&T for
> spelljammmer weapons with the following modifications.
> Divide the range by 10 to get the range in hex fields e.g. a light cannon
> would have a range of 2/5/9 hexfields. All indirectfire engine shots count
> as long range. 1 spelljammer space combat round = 3 normal combat rounds.
> All attack rolls are made against the ship armor rating not against AC 10
> or AC 0.
> No size to hit bonus in spacecombat.
I've never had a probelm rules wise using the rules given as is.
if its a "reality thing" for you, so be it. Have fun.
>
> I think I know why many people dislike spelljammer - the mobility and
> firepower of the characters is a real challenge for any DM. Several
> creatures which are hard to impossible to defeat for a groundling party
> are easy prey for a party with their own spelljammer ship. A dragon(non
> space version) isn't that dangerous when you can outfly and outrange him.
On the other hand, a spelljamming vessel doesn't have to deal with wind
and weather in space, and cannot do the weaving in and out of obstacles a
dragon can do. Dragons are intelligent creatures, usually. You are not
going to be able to sneak up on one with a spelljamming ship, and really
you are counting on your ability to cripple the dragon before it swoops
onto the deck of your ship and starts eating your crew.
You see the way to defeat spelljamming vessel is simply to get close
enough to board. This is how ships on the high seas were taken and its
equally true here. Of course you have to sure youcan take their crew, but
it can't always be easy.
> You need to be carefull with intersphere wars. Your campaign can will be
> in BIG trouble when the PC play a mayor role in the war - and fail. A
> prime example for such a war is the TSR module under the dark fist. The
> only logical consequence for a PC failture(non munchkin PC of the
> recommended level WILL fail this one) in this module is an assault on
> toril by vodoni forces. The vondoni empire has a not to bad chance in
> defeating the main spelljammer nations on toril and in a few year all of
> toril will fall under the iron fist of the vodini emperor. You think this
> is impossible? Well let me give you the stats of some vodoni forces.
> 7HD werewolf berserker type creatures 3(6) or 1 attack. +1 weapons to hit
> equiped with longswords +1. 10HD werewolf creature with better damage
> rolls.
> Vodoni Breeders 7-9th level fighters and 11-18th level transmuters with
> bracers of defence, ring & cloak of protection , a defender sword and a
> staff od power.
On the other hand ships on fire, don't tend to fight well. The
group I sent through this adventure trained a corp of Mage commandos.
Dimension door or teleport in, fireball as long as you could, dimension
door back. The violent cutthroat berzerkers were not really effective at
other things. Plus the Breeders were one to a ship and the spelljamming
mages at that. The elvish armadas and Toril ships would have had battle
mages on board. I feel Eliminster, Khelben, the Simbul and the rest,
including groups like the Zhentarim and the wizards of Thay (no ones taking
over Toril, that's my job!), would have tore quite a chunk out the
invading army themselves, never mind with a navy behind them.
With intelligent use of spells, I think the fight would have been
more even than you picture.
Also, if you look at the descriptions of the spheres under Vodoni
control, the ones conquered my military force are described as magic poor
worlds or primitves. Indeed, the one sphere with an truly active navy
and plantary going on, they have not even touched merely sold arms to both
sides.
Here's how I see it going.
Space Battle: Vodoni push through to the planets by sheer numbers
sustaining heavy losses on the way in
Orbiting planet: Vodoni invasion force constantly bombared by wizardly
magic and conjured weather, delaying the advance in magic rich areas.
Magic poor areas rapidly subdued, Vodoni breeding areas started to be set
up on toril.
Battles on land: Vodoni forces initally roll over forces easily until
blunted by unexpected magical resistance. Summoned creatures such as
demons and evils start to the their toll of the Vodoni forces. Vodoni
breeders start to fall victim to assination attempts. (Transmuters not
having the abjuration school makes them easier targets.)
It would be an uphill battle for Toril to throw off thew Vodoni
invasion I agree, but both it and Greyhawk are magic rich planets with a
network of archmages just sort sitting around with nothing better to do
than trash an evil empire. Krynn has its large Dragon population to
equalize things. If the Vodoni win it will be becuase of overwhelming
numbers and no other reason. Such a war wouldbe quite an interesting
campaign world if one were up to that level of detail.
> The Elven Armadas doesn't stand a chance against the vodoni hunter-killer
> vessels. The hunter-kiiler outturns and outranges the armada with ease.
That's why the Armadas are used primarily as command posts and in
surrounding actions where the hunter killers would have be subjected to
fire.
>
> Christian Seitz
In any case, you are absoulutely right about interstellar war
having to be something planned well and not blundered into, but like war
in any campaign it can be done with proper planning, and proper
contingency plans to save your campaign should you not want it ruled by a
dark fist!
-- Rick
woodelf
In article <1996Dec4.112138.152330@forest>, rdit...@forest.drew.edu wrote:
> gravity to also men to live and function normally. Of course this brings
> up the point of whether you weigh more on heavier ships, but I'm not going
> there.
no it doesn't. the rules explicitly state that gravity is binary: it's
either on or off. if something is large enough to have gravity, it's
always of the same strength
I was told by the people running that way that I could find the
Technomages here. --Vir Koto
woodelf
In article <58a517$c...@news.umsl.edu>, s99...@umslvma.umsl.edu (Aba
Hawksguard) wrote:
> >i got dibs on illithid! i've been working for the last couple of years to
> >bring back their glory from the 1st ed, and rescue them from their seeming
> >ferengi-like fate in SJ (but without actually contradicting any published
> >materials).
> What, don't you like having the most intelligent humanoid creature of
> the game acting as a bunch of money-hungry troll-like creatures (oh
> what the hell, contradict the published material if you want; I do it
> all the time, now)
ah, but it's a much greater challenge to do it without outright
contradicting the old stuff. that way, i can claim that the old stuff is
misinformation (disinformation?), rather than complete bunk. it helps with
continuity especially if you want others to be able to add it to an
existing game.
Ivanova is always right. I will listen to Ivanova. I will not ignore
Ivanova's recommendations. Ivanova is God. And if this ever happens
again, Ivanova will personally rip your lungs out. - Ivanova
Aba Hawksguard
nbar...@students.wisc.edu (woodelf) wrote:
<stuff sniped>
>i see it as very victorian, sharing a lot of the feel with Space: 1889,
>with equal parts high-seas carribean pirate romp and Age of Discovery
>exploration, but, obviously, more fantastic. it's hard to sum up, but it's
>nearly the antithesis of Star Trek:TNG. it's not quite original 'Trek or
>Star Wars, either. the only mood-appropriate fiction that comes to mind is
>LeGuin's SF (the various hainish novels, and the Word for World is Forest,
>and Vaster than Empires and More Slow, etc.). if i were defining the mood,
>it would be one of awe and discovery. there would be vast things in the
I agree. Spelljamming should inspire an "atmosphere" (excuse the
pun) of extreme awe and discovery. And it would be like Star Trek, at
least the opening credits of those shows (and not much else).
<more stuff sniped>
>i got dibs on illithid! i've been working for the last couple of years to
>bring back their glory from the 1st ed, and rescue them from their seeming
>ferengi-like fate in SJ (but without actually contradicting any published
>materials).
What, don't you like having the most intelligent humanoid creature of
the game acting as a bunch of money-hungry troll-like creatures (oh
what the hell, contradict the published material if you want; I do it
all the time, now)
>woodelf
>nbar...@students.wisc.edu
>woo...@yar.cs.wisc.edu
>http://dax.cs.wisc.edu/~woodelf
>I was told by the people running that way that I could find the
>Technomages here. --Vir Koto
Aba Hawksguard
ccla...@aol.com
In article <32a24f59...@news.pipeline.com>, wildw...@pipeline.com
(Bill Wilson) writes:
>
>There was an article in Dragon along these lines a few years ago in
>one of the Planes theme issues... I forget which one, but it was a
>"charter service" and transport within the Astral plane... I've used
>it a few times (when I remember to unpack the mag <g>) and it worked
>rather well.
>
>
Yeah, the article was called "Voidjammers" and was published in Dragon
#159.
Chris Clagett.
Proudly plotting the downfall of human civilization since December 25,
1975.
ccla...@aol.com
Ron Hay
John Candy's Ghost wrote:
>
> I got one word for you: Planejammer. Sends tingles up my spine. The
> infinite distances of the planes, the astral, and the other parts of the
> remote ones...the plying of trade routes is infinitely helped by
> planejammer ships. (One might even speculate that spelljammer ships are
> the by-products of planejammers.)
>
Woah! You read my mind :D
I'm about to start a (seemingly) "normal" Spelljamming campaign, based
off of another campaign a friend ran last year. However, about half way
into it, the PCs are going to find a peculiarly modified spelljamming
ship that will turn out to be a "Planejammer" as you state. They will,
of course, have a very interesting set of tasks to accomplish on the
planes in order to accomplish there tasks in their crystal sphere.
I agree, though, everytime I think of the possibilities, shivers run
amuck on my skin :D
Ron
(If your curious to know more, feel free to email me. I don't want to
post more in case one of the players happens to read the newsgroup :D
I'd love some input from a fellow Spelljammer AND Planewalker!)
Christopher Coward
>John Candy's Ghost wrote:
>>
>> I got one word for you: Planejammer. Sends tingles up my spine. The
>> infinite distances of the planes, the astral, and the other parts of the
>> planes could be helped out by a planejammer. Skip portals, take more
>> remote ones...the plying of trade routes is infinitely helped by
>> planejammer ships. (One might even speculate that spelljammer ships are
>> the by-products of planejammers.)
>>
There was a most intersting article in a Dragon from ages ago about ships
that ply the Astral. I think it was written before Spelljammer came out.
Can't remember the issue I'm afraid, but it may jog someones memory. I
believe the ships were powered by Illithid brains.
Chris
Jay Knioum
In article <59bphj$5...@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk>,
cc...@mole.bio.cam.ac.uk (Christopher Coward) wrote:
>There was a most intersting article in a Dragon from ages ago about ships
>that ply the Astral. I think it was written before Spelljammer came out.
>Can't remember the issue I'm afraid, but it may jog someones memory. I
>believe the ships were powered by Illithid brains.
This article was about "Voidjammers," and was written just after Spelljammer
was released, and still brand new. Interesting concepts, and a fun read.
Grins...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afreau Madde "Stark Raving Sane Since 1972"
mad...@interconnect.net @8)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
^^Angel^^
I was just wondering if anybody could direct me to good AD&D web sites.
Even the "basic info" ones......basically, anything would be appreciated.
Thank You.
The Amorphous Mass
^^Angel^^ (^Angel^@heavan.cloud) wrote:
>I was just wondering if anybody could direct me to good AD&D web sites.
The FAQ has an excellent list:
http://sac.uky.edu/~mlmorr0/faq/rgfdfaq.html
Also, check out http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/
http://sac.uky.edu/~mlmorr0/fantasy/pages.html
http://www.io.com/~wtsoft/
http://www.irony.com/
--
The Amorphous Mass If I knew what I was doing,
amo...@avalon.net it wouldn't be research.
Michael Sandy
The Q-Ship
I had this idea for a new class of vessels when I was thinking about
what sorts of ships groundling empires would have and what they'd use them
for. As a cargo vessel, a Spelljamming ship can keep a army supplied in
the field from a secure supply depot, which would enable the army to
travel in a single huge unit, as distinct from splitting up into separate
column to forage better.
The size of cities in the ancient period was limited by the amount of
grain which could be brought into the city, which was limited by the
amount of farmland near rivers or seas that could ship their cargo
to the city.
With Spelljamming ships, the size of cities could grow _enormously_. In
a largely secure area there would be a demand for a simple heavy cargo
ship, which could transport the most cargo for the smallest amount of
magical equipment that needed to be purchased.
So, starting with the idea that you want a ship which can carry a large
mass in proportion to the mass of the ship I started off with a barge.
A barge is not too implausible a vessel, as it can be loaded and unloaded
quite quickly.
Now suppose this groundling empire has been spending its treasure on ships,
and finds them very useful indeed, but wildspace bandits hear about it
and start to prey on the inexperienced groundlings. At first the standing
order would be to land the ship, or crash it, as fast as possible if
attacked, and the groundling empire would try to salvage the helm later.
But sometimes the cargo is troops who are being transfered to suppress
a rebellion, lay siege to an enemy, or whatever.
So you have this barge with a lot of troops in their bunks when the helmsman
spies a Neogi slaver ship approaching. Ordinarily, he'd ground the ship,
hide, let the pirates take the cargo and report the location of the ship,
but in this case the 'cargo' has a higher ranking officer who has a different
plan.
The Neogi ship fires some artillery, and the barge's helm 'goes down', the
Neogi close to board when suddenly 100 specialized heavy crossbowmen
opens fire, using the barge's hatches as improvised mantlets, giving
about 90% cover.
The barge's helm suddenly 'came back online', and rammed the Neogi vessel.
With crossbowmen covering the hatches, it proved easy to sweep the decks
clear of the enemy, but since the troop commander didn't want to take
chances with entering the enemy ship and fighting Umber Hulks in close
quarters, the commander ordered the Neogi vessel thoroughly fired before
his troops cut their lines and pulled the barge away.
Afterwards, the groundling navy gave some thought as to deliberately
repeating their victory, with the intent of driving away pirates. Thus
was born the Q-ship.
To outward appearance, the Q-ship is a barge with a covered deck, the
ship is
a box 7' x 20' x 50' or so, with a heavily armored bow section. Even though
the ship only has a minor helm, and itself weighs about 10-15 tons, it
can ship a lot of troops and cargo. The cargo hatches are quite thick,
especially since cargo must rest on them in Wildspace, and so make excellant
Mantlets, protecting the crew from anti-personel artillery.
As the ship has a very low maneuverability rating, and poor SR due to lack
of highly skill crews, the Q-ship has a great concern when facing races
like the elves who stand off firing artillery for a long period. To
reduce this problem, the Q-ships stock a number of temporary aids to SR
and maneuverability, which its captains are authorized to expend as
necessary.
A later development was the purchase of a number of Maneuver Helms, which
were much cheaper than minor helms and whose primary use was to enable
the ship to maneuver better, and take off faster. It is essentially
a second helm which instead of adding to the SR, adds to the maneuverability
rating. The Q-ship normally has an F rating, but since the Q-ships get
the best pilots, the pilot of the minor helm can use their Spelljamming
skill to temporarily boost the SR of the ship, the pilot of the maneuver
helm can boost the maneuverability.
With scrolls and potions for improving SR and tactical rating, the barge
can jump from a 1 or 2 SR, and F maneuverability to 3 or 4 SR, and B or
even _A_ maneuverability for a brief period. As that may be all that is
needed to close the range enough for the Q-ship, that could be enough.
The Q-ship fires concealed harpoons with hidden ballistae which keeps the
enemy ship from reestablishing distance.
The Q-ship relies on being able to carry a huge crew because its primary
duty is within or real close to the atmosphere of a planet, when facing
WildSpace ships which must carry more food supplies and fewer crew to
keep the air of high quality.
For a WildSpace ship to match a Q-ship's crew density, it must base in the
same atmosphere as the Q-ship. That means the groundling empire can, in
theory, find this base and hit it with overwhelming troop power, when
the raiders may not have enough ships to evacuate everybody beyond the
atmosphere on a moment's notice.
When not watching for WildSpace raiders, a Q-ship is excellent for patrolling
the groundling empire, participating in sieges, patrolling over the roads
and rivers of the empire's trading system. The Mantlets can be shifted
to cover the sides of the ship, enabling the marines to fire down and to
the sides in support of sieges or ordinary battlefield.
The ship is designed to protect its marine complement cargo while at the same
time making sure the marines can rapidly deploy through the hatches when
they are needed. As the Q-ship designers grew more familiar with the demands
of wildspace combat they added a few things to the inside of the ship.
Because the ship occasionally rams a more massive ship, gravity can shift
towards the front, there are sufficent hang on straps on both the decks
and the cargo deck floor for the entire marine complement to brace for
collisions better.
The Q-ship has a number of problems. If it rams a ship in such a way
that its crew's crossbowmen can't cover all the opponents hatches, the
rammed ship's crew could make their way unmolested around its blindside,
and the crossbowmen would have to leave the protection of their mantlets
to be effective.
As its marines are unlikely to be welled trained in Wildspace fighting,
as their primary duty is inside the atmosphere vs planetary targets, they
won't fight very well in sudden G-shifts. The large marine force can
be a disadvantage as the loss of a ship would involve many more casualties
than a lightly crewed WildSpace nation ship.
Even with all the modifications, a Q-ship would still need luck and
surprise to beat a heavy warship with an experienced crew, but
adding the necessity of completely disabling a ship before boarding
makes piracy a more expensive proposition, with less return. And
because the Q-ship so resembles its more defenseless brethren, would
be pirates would have to practically destroy the flying barges before
boarding them.
The Q-ship idea is a way for groundling powers to win a few battles with
more experienced opponents, while gaining the experience needed to fight
on more equal terms with WildSpace pirates. It can pour out an amazing
amount of fire power against an opponent 'above' its deck, with significant
protection for those firing, and would be an excellant ship to work in
formation.
A companion ship for the Q-ship would be a helm-cocked Trebuchet. This
would be a much more agile ship, with crew to aid its maneuverability,
where the power of the helm could be used to cock a heavy Trebuchet.
As the Trebuchet is built into the ship, it would have a very limited
zone of fire, you'd have to turn the ship to aim the Trebuchet, but
by using the power of the helm to arm the Trebuchet, you wouldn't need
a large crew for the weapon itself. Unlike a terrestrial Trebuchet
where you'd want to release the projectile while it was moving in an
upward arc, a spelljamming ship with a Trebuchet would want it to release
straight ahead for maximum power.
Now my theory is that if you have a ship which is supposed to either
ram and/or board you want to have a large marine complement and you
want to be able to board the enemy ship quickly. That means you don't
want to have deal with obstructions or small boarding platforms while
you are exposed to enemy fire.
On the other hand, if you have a ship devoted to artillery and missile
weapons you want to have as many obstructions as possible to boarding.
You want your artillery to be able to fire even if your ship's gravity
is disrupted by being intertwined with an enemy ship. You want restricted
access from the deck to inside which can be easily defended while
your missile fire sweeps the deck of boarders.
The Q-ship is limited by the requirement that it have a watertight
bottom in order to land in water. A wildspace version of the Q-ship
would have hatches covering both top and bottom deck, so it could
suppress the enemy crew more effectively. It could only land in a
docking cradle, or dock with another ship. As long a wildspace
ships are designed with an undefendable 'bottom' surface which they
land on, they must defend themselves with maneuver or with another
ship covering their vulnerable areas.
Some landing structures that wouldn't interfere much with a ship
designed to board an enemy.
1) Landing skis. These don't have to protrude far from the hull, and
so wouldn't interfere with your own troops.
2) Hermeticly sealable hatches on the 'bottom' of the ship. Such hatches
would probably be slower to open, shut, and get through in combat.
3) Take offs and landings are pure power, Levitate and Feather Fall,
requiring little shock absorbing structure.
These would enable a ship to be made extremely compact, with more of the
mass being armor and structural support, with those structures needed
for maneuverability not interfering with boarding or defensive missile
fire versus enemy boarders.
Except for the existence of spells with an area of effect in spelljammer
hexes, I'd think wildspace fleet battles would involve fleets in close
formation, like the ancient Greeks, Romans, etc...
The shape of the formation would be greatly influenced by the firing
arcs of the ships involved.
Michael Sandy