So, how do you beat Great Wyrm dragon?
Henry Cotter
I got a little bored(Hannity and Colmes, usually a good show, wasted
it's entire hour on the Robert Blake arrest, something perhaps 1% of the
population cares about, but I digress.)
Anyway, I began to look at the dragons and I looked at some of the great
wyrms.
Scary.
Much more scary than anything encountered in 2nd Edition(and a million
times tougher than the jokes that appear under dragon headings in AD&D
and OD&D.) Looking at the CR of the great wyrm gold dragon, I see it is
a 26.
No way. Unless the Epic Level Handbook shows tremendous escalation in
power, a standard party of four stands *no* chance. I mean, this dragon
not only has a breath weapon which can wipe out the strongest characters
in one shot every four rounds or so. Never mind the spellcasting as a
19th level sorcerer. Never mind the fact that should a dragon engage in
melee, the creature gets close to like 6 attacks for grevious damage(not
to mention a STR bonus in the high 40's.)
This creature also has stats in the 30's for everything else outside
of DEX which is rather pathetic. Add to this the great saves, to hit
bonuses, and high AC and HP's(on top of the feats, oh my), and this is
really one nasty critter.
Now, let me preface this by saying that I know that great wyrm gold
dragons should be very rare and are supposed to be tough, but can 4 26th
level characters really beat this creature? I mean, you can't attack
them head on. You can't do much from range because their jumping
ability and reach will close the gaps quickly. You'd be hard pressed to
beat them at spell slinging because they're not much worse than a 26th
level spellcaster and have high SR.
And I know smart tactics is the way to do it, but given that you're
more than likely to be facing off on the dragon's turf, the creature
would have the home field advantage.
So how would anyone suggest beating one with a party of 4 26th
level adventurers? This is what I'm basically wondering.
--
Shalom,
Henry Cotter
Brett Evill
mano...@webtv.net (Henry Cotter) wrote:
> So how would anyone suggest beating one with a party of 4 26th
>level adventurers? This is what I'm basically wondering.
For extra credit, explain how this may be done at a cost of 20% of the
party's daily spells, hit points, and ammunition.
--
Regards,
Brett Evill
<ev...@NO.webone.JUNK.com.MAIL.au>
Talen
<ev...@NOSPAM.webone.com.au> wrote:
>In article <26141-3C...@storefull-2315.public.lawson.webtv.net> ,
>mano...@webtv.net (Henry Cotter) wrote:
>
>> So how would anyone suggest beating one with a party of 4 26th
>>level adventurers? This is what I'm basically wondering.
>
>For extra credit, explain how this may be done at a cost of 20% of the
>party's daily spells, hit points, and ammunition.
Harm? ^^;
--
Talen
http://shatteredreality.net/talen/
"Jump on my sword while you still can, evil. I won't be as
gentle!"
- Minsc
The Gurus love you
Sea Wasp
.
> So how would anyone suggest beating one with a party of 4 26th
> level adventurers? This is what I'm basically wondering.
Oh, there are ways. There are ALWAYS ways.
But in general, the answer is:
You don't.
Fighting a dragon is one of the worst things that can happen to you,
at ANY level. As my current party is finding out. For the first time
in about 20 years, I had to EXPLICITLY pull some punches on the PCs
just to let 'em live for a bit in this combat. If it was their fault
they were in this mess, I'd have roasted 'em all, but it wasn't; they
were playing their characters perfectly, but the baddies aren't dumb
and decided that after what these characters had survived previously,
there was no point in doing things halfassed and sent in the big guns.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.htm
Zimri
news:26141-3C...@storefull-2315.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> I was just looking at my Monster's Manual tonight at around 8PM because
> I got a little bored(Hannity and Colmes, usually a good show, wasted
> it's entire hour on the Robert Blake arrest, something perhaps 1% of the
> population cares about, but I digress.)
>
> Anyway, I began to look at the dragons and I looked at some of the great
> wyrms.
>
> Scary.
>
> Much more scary than anything encountered in 2nd Edition(and a million
> times tougher than the jokes that appear under dragon headings in AD&D
> and OD&D.) Looking at the CR of the great wyrm gold dragon, I see it is
> a 26.
>
> No way.
Aw come on, did you never play ADVENT on an IBM?
(no spoilers here)
--
zimriel sbc dot
at global net
.
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/zimriel/blog/zimblog.html
because everyone else is doing it
Henry Cotter
>Henry Cotter wrote:
>>. So how would anyone suggest
>> beating one with a party of 4 26th level
>> adventurers? This is what I'm basically
>> wondering.
> Oh, there are ways.
There are
> ALWAYS ways.
> But in general, the
answer is:
> You don't.
Well, sure. But my point was that the CR on a great wyrm gold dragon
seems to be ridiculously low.
> Fighting a dragon is
one of the worst
> things that can happen to you, at ANY level.
> As my current party is finding out. For the first
> time in about 20 years, I had to EXPLICITLY
> pull some punches on the PCs just to let 'em
> live for a bit in this combat. If it was their fault
> they were in this mess, I'd have roasted 'em
> all, but it wasn't; they were playing their
> characters perfectly, but the baddies aren't
> dumb and decided that after what these
> characters had survived previously, there was
> no point in doing things halfassed and sent in
> the big guns.
I'm thinking about getting back into D&D for awhile. It's been a year
since I looked at my 3E rules. I remember when 3E first came out that
many complained that it was too "easy." If anything, it seems that the
difficulty level has been jacked up while giving a ton more options. Not
that I'm complaining, mind you.
I was one of the people who thought dragons were underpowered in
previous editions. I'm not complaining about them being beefed up so
much. I just have a problem with their low CRs. At least, from my
perspective.
--
Shalom,
Henry Cotter
James Carman
>
> I was just looking at my Monster's Manual tonight at around 8PM because
> I got a little bored(Hannity and Colmes, usually a good show, wasted
> it's entire hour on the Robert Blake arrest, something perhaps 1% of the
> population cares about, but I digress.)
>
> Anyway, I began to look at the dragons and I looked at some of the great
> wyrms.
>
> power, a standard party of four stands *no* chance. I mean, this dragon
> not only has a breath weapon which can wipe out the strongest characters
> in one shot every four rounds or so. Never mind the spellcasting as a
> 19th level sorcerer. Never mind the fact that should a dragon engage in
> melee, the creature gets close to like 6 attacks for grevious damage(not
> to mention a STR bonus in the high 40's.)
> This creature also has stats in the 30's for everything else outside
> of DEX which is rather pathetic. Add to this the great saves, to hit
> bonuses, and high AC and HP's(on top of the feats, oh my), and this is
> really one nasty critter.
> Now, let me preface this by saying that I know that great wyrm gold
> dragons should be very rare and are supposed to be tough, but can 4 26th
> level characters really beat this creature? I mean, you can't attack
> them head on. You can't do much from range because their jumping
> ability and reach will close the gaps quickly. You'd be hard pressed to
> beat them at spell slinging because they're not much worse than a 26th
> level spellcaster and have high SR.
> And I know smart tactics is the way to do it, but given that you're
> more than likely to be facing off on the dragon's turf, the creature
> would have the home field advantage.
> So how would anyone suggest beating one with a party of 4 26th
> level adventurers? This is what I'm basically wondering.
>
The basic decision-making process when facing a powerful dragon is:
Does it have a drop on us? yes/no
yes: eep.
no: whew.
Can we take time to get ready?
yes: well... maybe.
no: Don't even bother.
A 20th-level caster using protection from elements (fire) on all four party
members will let 'em soak up a good 240 points of fire damage, more if saves
are made (saves will probably be failed). That'll take care of one and most of
another blast from its breath weapon. You need to cast as many protective
spells as possible - including spell resistance, spell immunity, all of those
funky ones. With only four characters, it'll still be damn tough. But if you
make 'em level 26, with the right enhancements... maybe. Well, they'll stand a
chance. You can pump a fighter's attack bonus up to around +40... though he'll
still be hit every time by the dragon. Attack bonus +51 is hard to avoid.
And, well, if your level 26 mage has spell penetration, improved spell
penetration and a maximised, elementally substituted (cold) meteor swarm...
that's 480 points of damage to it in one go (1d20+30 versus SR 33 to affect it
- and no save). Gold dragons, being fire creatures, take double damage from
cold.
Of course, the gold dragon is a level 19 spellcaster, so may counterspell - or
respond with spells of his own, such as dispel magic. So if the cleric stays
on overwatch for counterspells in the first round (and dispels the dispel
magic), that'll let the fighter and rogue close. Then they flank, with the
rogue doing sneak attacks, and the fighter keeping it busy...
then after they close, if the dragon takes time to cast spells or counterspell
- well, that's a round it's not attacking! :)
Lessee... a level 26 fighter... let's assume a BAB of +20, since the epic
level rules are weird at the moment and I'm not sure if they allow BAB to
progresss above there. That's four attacks in a round. Since his AC can't go
high enough to deny the dragon hits, drop the shield and go two-handed. With
bonuses, strength could be as high as 30. So that's 2d6+22, assuming a +5
impact greatsword. Toss on frost for +2d6 ice damage (fire type creature, so
double damage), and that's an average of 36 damage per hit. 43 if it's Unholy.
50 if it's also Chaotic. The fourth attack is at a BAB 15 less than the first.
Okay.. he can still hit it most of the time, all the same (Assuming AC 42 -
this assumes the dragon hasn't had time to get its preparatory spells up).
That means the fighter will do between 150 and 200 points of damage each
round, if he has just the right weapon. 90 and 120 if he has a more average
one.
The rogue, meanwhile, has a +5 keen, frost rapier, with the improved critical
feat. With flanking (sneak attacks), he can do 40+ damage with a hit (10d6
sneak attack, yay). Strength, enhancement bonus and weapon damage all doubled
if he crits - and he threatens on a 12+.
Now, all of this is ruined if the dragon actually moves. Gotta get the bastard
to stay still! With a will save of +33, it's not going to be /held/ any time
soon. Mostly, this strategy can be bolloxed. But if the dragon doesn't move in
the /first round/ the rogue and fighter close, it'll take perhaps 730 hp
between the melee attacks and the maximised meteor swarm. That's enough to
kill it.
So, as I said, /maybe/. Maybe it'll work. IF the PCs have time to prepare.
If they don't have time to prepare, they're stuffed.
(Note: numbers produced here are mostly from memory, and flipped out off the
top of head. Can provide more accurate analysis if needed, which may disprove
what I say here)
James Carman
>
>
> Well, sure. But my point was that the CR on a great wyrm gold dragon
> seems to be ridiculously low.
>
Yes, I think many people on the NG think the CR is way too low. For dragons of
all types (see the thread about wraiths vs young red dragons).
Lord_Anthrax
On 18-Apr-2002, mano...@webtv.net (Henry Cotter) wrote:
> So how would anyone suggest beating one with a party of 4 26th
> level adventurers? This is what I'm basically wondering.
Well, if you want to be ultra-cheap, have the Wizard cast Geas. Make it lie
defenseless and have the Cleric cast Harm, then have the Rogue Coup De Grace
it while the Fighter starts taking treasure inventory. :)
--
Regards,
The Lord Anthrax
"Arguing with people on Usenet is like participating in the Special
Olympics. Even if you win, you're still a retard." -Anonymous
Brett Evill
<lu...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>Now, all of this is ruined if the dragon actually moves.
Can't the dragon take to the air, cast a bunch of protective spells, and
do strafing runs with its breath weapon? Fort save at DC 41 or lose 12
points of Strength each time. You can't dish out enough damage when it
is 60' straight up and covered with protective magic. Soon, you will
grow weak, and then it will kill you.
Brett Evill
"Lord_Anthrax" <lorda...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>On 18-Apr-2002, mano...@webtv.net (Henry Cotter) wrote:
>
>> So how would anyone suggest beating one with a party of 4 26th
>> level adventurers? This is what I'm basically wondering.
>
>Well, if you want to be ultra-cheap, have the Wizard cast Geas. Make it lie
>defenseless
It refuses. At the end of the day it will take 3d6 damage. If it's spell
resistance fails, and if it hasn't abolished the geas by then.
>and have the Cleric cast Harm,
While the cleric is rushing in to inflict his range touch spell he
suffers a wheelbarrowfull of hit point damage, and by the time he gets
there the dragon has jumped into the air and is now flying and 60'
altitude and lobbing sorceror spells on turns when it can't use it's
breath weapon. If he survives teh outright damage, the cleric finds that
he has to use the Harm spell on the Lammasu summoned bythe dragon's
'Summon Monster IX' spell.
> then have the Rogue Coup De Grace
>it while the Fighter starts taking treasure inventory. :)
Nice try. No banana.
Nockermensch
*sigh* this question again? Okay, I'll tell you how to kill a great
wyrm in one round, using just two characters: an evil wizard and an
evil cleric (death domain) minimum level for these is 17, but let's
assume 26th level characters:
Your evil cleric creates a spectre. He can control it by sucessfully
rebuking it. Now, he sends the spectre against the first peasant
village they stuble upon. The spectre kills everybody there (without
any trouble) and for each dead creature there's another spectre in 1-4
rounds, *under control of the spectre the cleric is controling*.
That's a spectre army for you, guys. Let's say, for the sake of
brevity, that the cleric gets 40 spectres this way.
Now, the wizard, which already knew from previous summoned cannon
fodder that he and the cleric sent to scourge the dragon's
headquarters (or agents who infiltrated, saw the dragon, fought him,
were killed and then true ressurrected by the cleric) knows where the
dragon sleeps, hastes everybody, and teleports without error to the
dragon's lair. Now, two things happen:
1- The cleric, who had a prepared action for when he was teleported,
casts a targeted greater dispel magic on the dragon.
2 - The spectres, who had prepared partial charges for when they were
teleported, fly and hit the dragon, who, being a colossal creature
with DEX 10 has AC... 2 against their incorporeal touches. The
spectres hit, unless they roll a 1.
Assuming that 2 spectres still roll a 1, the other 38 hit and inflict
76 negative levels on the dragon, that sadly had only 41HDs. Dragon is
dead.
Now, the following bad thing can happen:
- The dragon has his lair defended against teleportation
(mordenkainen's private sanctum, dimensional anchor as the spell
effect of a hallowed site). Pretty smart. Then the wizard must take
the spectre army to just outside the dragon's lair, cast ghostform,
*discerns the dragon location*, haste himself and the spectres and
then take them in without error in a merry trip inside the lair's
walls until they arrive *inside* the wyrm. (the dragon is lying
somewhere, isn't it?). While this, the cleric takes care of the
distration: casting a gate, he summons forth a 52 HD Pit Fiend (which
is controled by the 26HD cleric) and sends it as cannon fodder against
the dragon, then casts gaseous form and follow, preparing to [greater]
dispel anything the dragon can do.
Also, if the the dragon has powerful allies: Ignore the allies and go
for the wyrm. Almost any other being can be taken down by time stop
and some carefully placed horrid wiltings.
With the beast dead, it's time to keep sure it'll remain this way.
Summon a greater barghest to eat its remains (once you have plundered
the dragon's corpse for what it's worth).
The main point is to hit a dragon with incorporeal undeads. I choose
spectres for the overkill, but even a host of lowly shadows can do the
trick. May this help you DMs or players trying to figure how to kill
one of these reptiles (which otherwise would pose some problems).
HAND.
@ @ Nockermensch, dragonslayer.
Arandor
> So how would anyone suggest beating one with a party of 4 26th
> level adventurers? This is what I'm basically wondering.
We did something similar once; a 20th. level party versus a very old
Red (the CR 23 IIRC). IOW, we should've been outmatched, right?
We did know, however, that we were to face the Dragon. Now I'm not
saying it used optimal tactics, but it did try its very best. The
biggest mistake the DM made, was that he tried to play the dragon as a
spellcaster with lots of hit points, instead of a melee monster with
spell backup.
The dragon had lots of spells like Maze, Forcecage etc. The "no save,
no SR, no nothing, but you're out of the running" kind of spells. It
used Maze on the fighters and Forcecage on the spellcasters, and tried
to isolate us.
We let it toy with us for a while. The DM did not even bother to use
the breath weapon; even the wizard could've taken 3 blasts, failed all
saves, and would still have been unscatched. The Rogue would've simply
made the save and jumped out of the way.
Then, my cleric got *sick* of it. Wizard had cast Mass Haste on
everyone. This gives the spellcasters 2 spells/round, versus the
dragon's single one.
* Mordenkainen's Disjunction (Magic domain); dragon had no spells left
(duh).
* Energy Drain. Did I mention that we were prepared? One block of
Incense of Meditation meant the Dragon lost 8 levels, no save, right
there. A lvl. 20 spellcaster with Greater Spell Penetration *can* get
through that SR, you know.
* Wizard followed up with another Energy Drain (happened to roll a 7)
and readied to Dispel.
A Dragon with 15 of his highest-level spells gone, -15 to attacks,
saves, and checks, and a few other penalties, is going to start to
feel it. Cast a Heal? You got *two* spellcasters ready to dispel,
waiting for you. And they can both cast another spell in addition.
Attack the spellcasters? Please go ahead - I had a Antilife Shell
going - no save, and I beat the SR.
The only *real* problem we had, was that the Dragon tried to flee -
and they fly quite fast. How do you stop that? We followed it on
Phantom Steeds (who, also Hasted, can easily match that speed) while
the fighters plonked away in full-attack mode with +5 bows and +5
arrows (Greater Magic Weapon).
But, yes, it did cost us more than 20% of our resources. It *was* 4
20th.-level versus CR 23, though. In the end, no one even lost so much
as a single HP.
We would not have minded so much if it had attacked the fighter in
full melee, though (who was the only viable target).
Tips: *no* save, *no* SR, *no* nothing. No chances. Give it a chance,
and it'll crush you.
Cheers,
Arandor
Walt Harris
> mano...@webtv.net (Henry Cotter) wrote in message news:<26141-3C...@storefull-2315.public.lawson.webtv.net>...
> [snip]
> <snip - a long story...>
>
> Tips: *no* save, *no* SR, *no* nothing. No chances. Give it a chance,
> and it'll crush you.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Arandor
Hence, in a nutshell, the DM was stupid... A dragon of that level should have made short work of your party... if
nothing else, the dragon should have been on the wing or attacking with all it could...
James Carman
>
> In article <3CBFB72F...@bigpond.net.au> , James Carman
> <lu...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>
> >Now, all of this is ruined if the dragon actually moves.
>
> Can't the dragon take to the air, cast a bunch of protective spells, and
> do strafing runs with its breath weapon? Fort save at DC 41 or lose 12
> points of Strength each time. You can't dish out enough damage when it
> is 60' straight up and covered with protective magic. Soon, you will
> grow weak, and then it will kill you.
>
respond /immediately/ by taking off, this strategy /may/ work. I do agree that
it's extremely risky. :) Though, if the PCs are hasted, they may be able to
close and deliver their full attacks... that'd improve the odds.
So, to GMs who don't want to see their megadragons go down, don't let the PCs
sneak up on them. The fact that dragons of age category 12 have blindsight of
360 feet, darkvision of 1200 feet and 4x nightvision means that this is
difficult. Besides, any dragon capable of casting 9th-level spells would
probably get into the habit of laying down a divination before going to bed.
'Oh, gonna have adventurers come sometime. Okay, better lay down the /alarm/
and /symbol/ spells...' (Assuming they don't already have permanent alarm
spells all around their lair... one permanent alarm spell is only 500xp!)
Hee.. symbol of persuasion might be nice to guard a gold wyrm's lair... save
with a DC of about 33 or be turned lawful good. :) Suddenly, those nifty
Chaotic, Unholy swords are no good!
rob...@ibooks.com
Shouldn't four 26th level PCs have lots of cohorts, followers, hirelings, and hangers-on to help? Does this make it any easier? (I don't want to argue, however, whether such things are assumed by the CR or not.)
Here's another big question, though: Any tips for DMs on running the great wyrm. With all those abilities it seems like a daunting task.
I think I have a good grasp of the 3e rules, but it seems like you'd need to be a rules master to really do these things justice. I don't have the time to devote to mastering them the way I was when I was a kid.
---------------------------------------
Posted with JOC News Finder
Download at http://www.jocsoft.com/jnf/
hikaru
"Talen" <tal...@spamspamspamspam.optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:nn6vbuklfem8v26oo...@4ax.com...
> It has been brought to my attention that "Brett Evill"
> <ev...@NOSPAM.webone.com.au> wrote:
>
> >In article <26141-3C...@storefull-2315.public.lawson.webtv.net> ,
> >mano...@webtv.net (Henry Cotter) wrote:
> >
> >> So how would anyone suggest beating one with a party of 4 26th
> >>level adventurers? This is what I'm basically wondering.
> >
> >For extra credit, explain how this may be done at a cost of 20% of the
> >party's daily spells, hit points, and ammunition.
>
> Harm? ^^;
>
> --
>
rope trick + bag of holding = big boom next to the dragon? Shoving a
dimensional hole into a dimensional hole causes nice, big explosions.
Indeed, this was used to kill a purple worm in a game I was in last week.
Unfortunately , we cant find the rules for the level of damage that occurs
when yo do this, so the GM ( who was familiar with 2nd ed. rules on
suchthings ) merely stated the resulting explosion killed the wyrm.... along
with the party as it leveled the better part of the dungeon we were in.Oh
well, win some, lose some....
--
Trav
hik...@rfci.diespamdie.net
RGMW Semi-Lurker at large
11/Sept/01: Never forget. Never forgive.
Brett Evill
nocker...@hotmail.com (Nockermensch) wrote:
>*sigh* this question again? Okay, I'll tell you how to kill a great
>wyrm in one round, using just two characters: an evil wizard and an
>evil cleric (death domain) minimum level for these is 17, but let's
>assume 26th level characters:
>
>Your evil cleric creates a spectre. He can control it by sucessfully
>rebuking it. Now, he sends the spectre against the first peasant
>village they stuble upon. The spectre kills everybody there (without
>any trouble) and for each dead creature there's another spectre in 1-4
>rounds, *under control of the spectre the cleric is controling*.
>That's a spectre army for you, guys. Let's say, for the sake of
>brevity, that the cleric gets 40 spectres this way.
>
>Now, the wizard, which already knew from previous summoned cannon
>fodder that he and the cleric sent to scourge the dragon's
>headquarters (or agents who infiltrated, saw the dragon, fought him,
>were killed and then true ressurrected by the cleric) knows where the
>dragon sleeps, hastes everybody, and teleports without error to the
>dragon's lair. Now, two things happen:
1. The dragon, warned of your approximate time of approach by its
routine divinations, has used its Foresight 1/day ability in a timely
fashion (this has a duration over three hours). It is neither surprised
nor even flat-footed, and the Foresight spell gives it an instant
instinctive knowledge of what to do next. The dragon uses its Sunburst 1
time/day ability as a free action. Cleric and Wizard get reflex saves
(DC 29) to avoid being blinded. They fail. Shadows take 19d6 points of
damage, spectres take 19d6 doubled points of damage. The incorporeal
undead puff out like candles in a hurricane.
2. The dragon spreads blinded the wizard and cleric smoothly over toast.
Peter Meilinger
to the "I shot you!"/"No you didn't!" levels one typically finds
among 8 year olds playing cops and robbers?
Pete
Alex Johnson
While I know this is the way the game has to be done most real DMs and
players will not be capable of coming up with this, especially on the
spot. Which is why I get such a kick out of reading posts like these.
I can totally agree with your posting and then laugh it off because it
will never happen.
Alex
PS-My solution is to only place the PCs against normal or dumb
opponents. If I were to actually play an opponent intelligently, they
wouldn't stand a chance. If I were to play a creature with this many
abilities intelligently (besides popping several braincells) the party
would be toast in a single round and wouldn't have known the foe was
even coming. Remember the infamous kobold dungeon for 10th level
characters? That's what happens when I let my monsters think. Imagine
an ancient dragon with intelligence and wisdom in the 30s and compare to
those kobolds with average stats. BTW, none if this applies right now
since I haven't played any high level games (always stopped at about
10th level).
JDJarvis
is sleeping.
Assuming it sleeps. Amazing that most folks always seem to forget
about that tactic, especially for a family of monsters that is famous
for sleeping a lot and for long stretches (dargons that is).
The bigger the dragon the more likely one is to be able to figure out
where it sleeps, just watch out thought that sucker could be smarter
then you think.
Doug Lampert
> So how would anyone suggest beating one with a party of 4 26th
> level adventurers? This is what I'm basically wondering.
Assuming the party has one round to prepare or a surprise round:
Wizard casts Mass Haste First then casts improved invisibility on
the Cleric (stupid Wizard, invisibility will not work against a
Dragon).
Cleric casts protection from elements (fire) on himself [haste
action] and then drinks his potion of fly, in case he has to
fight in the air.
Rogue gets out his (first) scroll of harm, reads it using
Use Magic Device, then tumbles to where the Dragon is using his
boots of striding and springing and hits the dragon, but fails
to penitrate its spell resistance.
Fighter runs to contact, giving the Rogue a flank for next round
if the dragon sticks around, swings and misses on his haste action.
Everyone rolls initiative, the party wins (Dragonic Dex sucks).
The Rogue goes first, backstabs the Dragon with a full attack action,
two weapons for five or six attacks, gets lucky and hits once or twice
doing lots of damage, the dragon makes its saves vs. massive damage
and ignores this.
The Wizard delays.
The Fighter swings and if he hits the improved crit + keen weapon +
vorpal weapon means that there is a good chance he crits, this would
kill the dragon, but he is having a bad day.
The Cleric moves in, accepting an opportunity attack, he touches the
Dragon, and fails his spell penitration. He makes a concentration
roll at DC15 (Duh!) and does not face an opportunity attack and hits
the dragon with the THIRD harm it has faced in this battle, along
with the chance of a vorpal blade killing it. Finally something works,
and the Dragon is Harmed.
The Wizard throws three magic missile spells (one quickened, one haste,
one action), one penitrates, this kills the Dragon.
Done.
Required some pretty good luck, but no real epic level abilities.
Every member of the party is likely to have SOMETHING that can hurt
the dragon seriously in one shot at this level. Cold spells for 40d6
or so on a missed save and made penitration. Sneak attacks for 14d6
forcing a save against death by massive damage most of the time, the
dragon only needs to roll a one once. Harm cast with concentration
to avoid opportunity attacks. Vorpal blades with crit ranges of 12-20!
Everyone is hasted after the Wizard's first action so it faces several
shots from each every round. Even if the Dragon gets a greater dispell
off it has a worse chance of taking down the parties spells than they
have against it's.
Taking to the air is no real help, EVERYONE in a party that level has
some sort of transportation magic. Especially if the Cleric has the
Travel or Magic domain.
Of course the only way this can cost 1/4 the parties resources at the
level is to KILL one or more members and sunder some fancy items, true
resurect and mass heal are both easily available. But there is a fair
shot that in a longer battle the Dragon will kill a few people. If it
kills the Cleric the survivors may even be mildly inconvieninced.
Then the Dragon's allies True Resurect it, and now it is angry....
DougL
JDJarvis
> In article <3CBFB72F...@bigpond.net.au> , James Carman
> <lu...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>
> >Now, all of this is ruined if the dragon actually moves.
>
> Can't the dragon take to the air, cast a bunch of protective spells, and
> do strafing runs with its breath weapon? Fort save at DC 41 or lose 12
> points of Strength each time. You can't dish out enough damage when it
> is 60' straight up and covered with protective magic. Soon, you will
> grow weak, and then it will kill you.
But when it takes to the air the mob of cohorts and followers that
high level characters should have (if players were bright enough to
take the leadership feat) can open up with missles, sure the odds of
each one hitting suck, but a to hit roll of 20 still lands the missle
in the dragons hide.
Hey lookie look, the dragon starts doing a pincishion impression. On
rounds the dragon is dealing with followers he is suffering from the
spells and devices of the PCs, on rounds the dragon isn't dealing with
the PCs the followers and cohorts (odds are just the cohorts since the
followers will have been spooked away by the dragons awesome presence)
are able to pepper the dragon. If everyone doesn't just stand still in
one giant mob the dragon is screwed.
Players who forget to have their characters exploit fame and influence
deseve to die, the leadership feat is a wonderful tool that is easily
ignored by folks who just don't get it.
Nowhere in the rules does it say a party of 4 PCs doesn't also include
animal companions, familiars, cohorts, followers, hirelings and
summoned monsters ,but folks always seem forget that option when
designing encounters and discussing Dragon and other monster CRs.
Sea Wasp
>
> In article <3CBFB72F...@bigpond.net.au> , James Carman
> <lu...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>
> >Now, all of this is ruined if the dragon actually moves.
>
> Can't the dragon take to the air, cast a bunch of protective spells, and
> do strafing runs with its breath weapon?
Why would the party remain on the ground to be targets? At 14th+
level, my current set of players all have either ways to fly on their
own, or transport that flies, plus feather-fall and so on to prevent
those embarrassing SPLAT moments.
Doug Smith
Finger of Death spell? (The Wyrm's SR isn't an extremely factor, as the wiz
only needs to roll a 6 to affect the dragon)
- Doug -
"Henry Cotter" <mano...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:26141-3C...@storefull-2315.public.lawson.webtv.net...
Nockermensch
Surprise is everything in a high level fight. (ultimately a matter of
who casts time stop first). But could you please describe in D&D terms
what spells and preparations exactly comprise the dragon's "routine
divinations"? And what would stop the wizard and the cleric from
casting the same divinations? And what would happen if the wizard
*mind blanked* himself and his cleric friend...
@ @ Nockermensch, I shot you! Ha ha!
maddman
A great wyrm for nearly any color is, in addition to its physical
qualities, a high level sorcerer. I happen to recall that Big Red is
19th, giving him a lot of options.
Like any other high level epic battle, it comes to intiative. Between
the dragon and the spellcasters, because of that oh-so broken spell,
Time Stop. PCs get one off, the wizard disenchants/penetrated/blasts
the dragon out of existance.
However, if the dragon gets one off, things can get rather interesting
rather quickly.
First, use the TS to get Haste, Mord's Disjunction, and maybe
something else pleasant, like Improved Invisibility or Stoneskin.
From there he can Breath & Cast a spell, make a move & do a full
attack, etc.
Take down the wizard first. Take down clerics from range. No harm if
you don't let them touch you.
They are beatable, surely. The real threat from a dragon with this
much power is its ability to shape the campaign world, not just his
physical ability.
maddman - web master for B.A.D.D. - http://www.baddragon.org
Andrew Tellez
Nockermensch wrote:
>
> Surprise is everything in a high level fight. (ultimately a matter of
> who casts time stop first).
I'd say it starts before that - more a matter of who fails a divination
first.
> But could you please describe in D&D terms what spells and preparations
> exactly comprise the dragon's "routine divinations"?
Use the Divination spell every week or so to ask "What is the most
probable threat to my life," "Who is most likely to take direct action
against me," and the like. The spell covers a week or so.
Use Legend Lore on oneself, one's possessions, one's lair, one's allies,
and any results from the Divination spells.
Squeeze Commune questions out of Quasits called with Lesser Planar
Binding.
> And what would stop the wizard and the cleric from casting the same
> divinations?
They aren't? And they lived this long? Did they wander in from the
thread about high-powered low-aged characters?
> And what would happen if the wizard *mind blanked* himself and his cleric
> friend...
Since Mind Blank protects against "information gathering by divination
spells or effects" the caster doesn't get an answer. The nature of
non-answer might vary, but it's a clear non-answer. In the case of the
Divination spells, they'd report the best non-Mind Blanked answer.
I assume that the dragon would be similarly protected, after all, he's
using the tricks.
jason
Henry Cotter wrote:
> This creature also has stats in the 30's for everything else outside
> of DEX which is rather pathetic. Add to this the great saves, to hit
> bonuses, and high AC and HP's(on top of the feats, oh my), and this is
> really one nasty critter.
> Now, let me preface this by saying that I know that great wyrm gold
> dragons should be very rare and are supposed to be tough, but can 4 26th
> level characters really beat this creature? I mean, you can't attack
> them head on. You can't do much from range because their jumping
> ability and reach will close the gaps quickly. You'd be hard pressed to
> beat them at spell slinging because they're not much worse than a 26th
> level spellcaster and have high SR.
> And I know smart tactics is the way to do it, but given that you're
> more than likely to be facing off on the dragon's turf, the creature
> would have the home field advantage.
> So how would anyone suggest beating one with a party of 4 26th
> level adventurers? This is what I'm basically wondering.
You don't. No, I'm not joking. The *only* time that a Great Wyrm should
die to 4 26th level adventurers is when the GM *allows* it. I view them as
role-playing elements, not monsters. Players can certainly attack them,
but it's pure suicide on their part. Barring a divine power intervening,
dragons of such strength cannot be beaten. Beyond all the raw power and
abilities (which are staggering), think of the intellect of such a
creature. The *centuries* of experience it can draw upon. Oh, I'm sure a
person could come up with many possibilities for a victory, but they all
depend on the players being more clever than the dragon. How likely would
that be, really? I mean, how would you force the Wyrm to stay long enough
for you to kill it? What would *you* do if it looked like you were
losing? Fight to the death? Or fall back, regroup and hit them again? A
dragon can do "hit and breathe" tactics until the party is greatly
weakened. And to fight it in its own lair? Folly. Think of the traps,
followers and magical defenses it would have in place. The CR of 26 is a
joke. It should be more like 46, to make it even a contest.
As a GM, I would *never* pit a Great Wyrm against a party, regardless of
level. My group would physically beat me to a pulp after they endured
three hours of being harassed, mauled and mutilated. A dragon (or any
monster, for that matter) doesn't need overbearing power to be a terror.
It needs only to be played as its intelligence score warrants.
BTW, any Great Wyrm caught sleeping would never have lived long enough to
become a Great Wyrm in the first place.
Jason
Brett Evill
doug.l...@tdytsi.com (Doug Lampert) wrote:
>mano...@webtv.net (Henry Cotter) wrote in message
>news:<26141-3C...@storefull-2315.public.lawson.webtv.net>...
>
>> So how would anyone suggest beating one with a party of 4 26th
>> level adventurers? This is what I'm basically wondering.
>
>Assuming the party has one round to prepare or a surprise round:
Bad assumption. The dragon has 'Foresight' up, having been warned by its
routine divinations in what 3-hour period to expect attack.
Nockermensch
> Nockermensch wrote:
> >
> > Surprise is everything in a high level fight. (ultimately a matter of
> > who casts time stop first).
>
> I'd say it starts before that - more a matter of who fails a divination
> first.
Agreed.
> > But could you please describe in D&D terms what spells and preparations
> > exactly comprise the dragon's "routine divinations"?
>
> Use the Divination spell every week or so to ask "What is the most
> probable threat to my life," "Who is most likely to take direct action
> against me," and the like. The spell covers a week or so.
Cool.
> Use Legend Lore on oneself, one's possessions, one's lair, one's allies,
> and any results from the Divination spells.
Uh... what kind of relevant info will Legend Lore give? This
divination works on the past, and the dragon is interested in his
future.
> Squeeze Commune questions out of Quasits called with Lesser Planar
> Binding.
Oh, evil. I like this kind of devious use for creature's powers.
> > And what would stop the wizard and the cleric from casting the same
> > divinations?
>
> They aren't? And they lived this long? Did they wander in from the
> thread about high-powered low-aged characters?
Why, of course. Wizard has 19 years, cleric has 18. They're killing
the dragon just for the kicks. (seriously!)
> > And what would happen if the wizard *mind blanked* himself and his cleric
> > friend...
>
> Since Mind Blank protects against "information gathering by divination
> spells or effects" the caster doesn't get an answer. The nature of
> non-answer might vary, but it's a clear non-answer. In the case of the
> Divination spells, they'd report the best non-Mind Blanked answer.
>
> I assume that the dragon would be similarly protected, after all, he's
> using the tricks.
Pheh, the dragon is a sorcerer. This means an awfully limited spell
selection. It's not like a wizard or a cleric who can choose spells
from huge lists. And since you mentioned divination, how about using
it for discovering all the spells a dragon knows? Once you figure it,
you could as well to bring along prepared spells to completely
neutralize anything the dragon can cast.
Here's another "spectre army" strategy:
- Once you get the spectre army, haste everybody and fly to the
dragon's lair. The dragon won't be expecting this since all the
preparation was made via mind blanked people. The cleric and the
wizard make sure they're protected against the breath weapons.
- Once in the cave, wizard casts a wall of stone between them and the
dragon. The wall has breaches for allowing line of sight, but not big
enough for the dragon using his natural attacks. cleric readies to
counterspell. spectres (which this time spread inside the lair walls
and will attack from all sides) charge and then hit again, since
they're hasted.
If the dragon tries to cast a spell. Cleric readied dispel magic
strikes. It's a luck thing, but the cleric CL (26) makes sure that
things are weighted for our slayers.
If the dragon breathes, both cleric and wizard will withstand the
damage. Some spectres will be killed, but there's more from where
these came.
If the dragon charges against the casters, hopefully the wall of stone
will resist at least one round. Heck, forget the wall of stone,
because since the dragon will have to move until the casters he won't
be able to do a full attack, so he won't kill any of them in the first
round, and he'll be dead at the end of it anyway (at the spectres'
initiative). Have the cleric AND the wizard ready to counterspell.
Style points.
@ @ Nockermensch, and after they kill the dragon, our teenage wonders
will spray graffiti on its lair and use the hoard to throw a huge
party.
Doug Smith
news:3CC0343B...@jhu.edu...
I doubt anyone would end up attacking a Great Wyrm Red Dragon in his layer
"on the spot." What makes more sense is that the PC's know that there is a
dragon somewhere, and they want what he has, or otherwise want him out of
the way. Even if they stumble into his layer, any orc barbarian with half a
brain would think twice before attacking the dragon outright. So the party
devises a plan over several days, weeks, or even months (game-time) to take
out the dragon, considering the consequences of each course of action, or if
it's even worth their lives. Using this much more realistic scenario, rather
than the "Hey there's a Great Wyrm Dragon! I bet we can take 'em out!"
situation, the above mentioned group of adventurers could eventually come
across a way of defeating a dragon.
"If it bleeds, we can kill it." - Arnold Schwarzenegger, Predator
- Doug -
Vlad2 Matt
>"on the spot." What makes more sense is that the PC's know that there is a
>dragon somewhere, and they want what he has, or otherwise want him out of
>the way.
If the DM puts a Great Wyrm in the game, it'd better be for a better reason
than the treasure table. The dragon should have something important, like the
"Key to the Universe", or should actually be a bad guy/NPC. Not just some
powerful monster up on the mountain.
Otherwise it turns into the game of who has bigger numbers on their paper. Who
party can dish out more damage than the dragon can take.
>So the party
>devises a plan over several days, weeks, or even months (game-time) to take
>out the dragon, considering the consequences of each course of action, or if
>it's even worth their lives. Using this much more realistic scenario, rather
>than the "Hey there's a Great Wyrm Dragon! I bet we can take 'em out!"
>situation, the above mentioned group of adventurers could eventually come
>across a way of defeating a dragon.
>
And hopefully it's more complex than "use big spells and swords" All the
"solutions" given in this thread will work. A spectre army popping into
existence up a dragon's snout is a tremoundous use of firepower.
But why are we going to kill the dragon? Cause it's there? Doesn't do the
Great Wyrm justice.
Some stuff Jason wrote:
""You don't. No, I'm not joking. The *only* time that a Great Wyrm should
die to 4 26th level adventurers is when the GM *allows* it. I view them as
role-playing elements, not monsters. Players can certainly attack them,
but it's pure suicide on their part. Barring a divine power intervening,
dragons of such strength cannot be beaten. Beyond all the raw power and
abilities (which are staggering), think of the intellect of such a
creature. The *centuries* of experience it can draw upon.
BTW, any Great Wyrm caught sleeping would never have lived long enough to
become a Great Wyrm in the first place.""
Amen
IMHO a Great Wyrm should be treated like a mountain or ocean or something else
damn big and unbeatable. Sure, you can climb to the top or sail across, but
it's still there.
""The *centuries* of experience it can draw upon.""
Played correctly, IMHO, all the planning that you'd need to do in order to take
a Wyrm down just won't work. Your opponent has been there and done that. So
while your party is down in the village planning and preparing, the dragon has
polymorphed into a bar maid and is slipping "Forget Where the Dragon Lives"
potion into your drinks. (I know it's not in the book.)
These beasts need to be loved like your all time favorite PC (for the munchkins
out there pick the one with the biggest numbers) For centuries the dragon has
been "adventuring" in search of treasure. Defeating all kinds of dumb-assed
parties of heroes. Whether by trickery, breath weapons, sorcery, or just plain
bashing them with rocks. This is the kind of NPC you talk to, not fight.
But if you're going to ignore all that senitmental shit anyway....
You fight a Wyrm, it better be all you do for many hours of gametime. This
ain't no group of kobolds. This ain't an army. This ain't even the wicked
witch of the west. This dragon was born before elves started using bows. He
was around when Dracula had a hearbeat. This bastard has eaten every party
that's come down the trail up to and including that last bunch of 25th level
guys.
If the DM does it right, a Great Wyrm will be the craftiest, meanest, deadliest
SOB the party has ever seen. By the end, your fighters should be reduced to
throwing rocks and your wizards will be flipping through the index of their
spellbooks looking for something to hit it with.
Besides, it's much more fun to barely survive after that first round of attacks
that was supposed to do 2k HP worth of damage and drain 100 levels from the
beast didn't exactly work..... As long as the "why" isn't the DM saying
"uhhhh, he has a ring of immunity from all those things" The DM has to turn
that list of numbers (which isn't PC knowledge anyway for all your planning)
into an opponent that doesn't get slapped around just because.....
This has gone on long enough and I don't even remember what I was talking
about.
VII
BTW, if the fight comes down to the initiative roll, that ain't a fight. It's
a coin toss. Save a couple bucks and leave the dice at the store.
Karkadinn
(Okay, I'm sufficiently irritated by this thread that I'm coming out of
lurkerdom. Y'all should be proud. Heh.)
*snip all the posts about people gushing about the wonderful, almighty, godlike
dragons who can't ever be beat if the DM is reasonably intelligent*
A dragon is power, and a dragon is old. Why do these things make it
unbeatable? Geography is also beatable, you know. It's not always necessarily
PRACTICAL for a high level party to grind a mountain down or eradicate an
ocean, but they have the magical resources to do it, with sufficient planning
and patience. Age and wisdom and intelligence are all wonderful things to
have, but they are NOT, and I repeat this for emphasis, they are NOT a 100%
alarm system that warns you of danger at all times! No matter how smart, or
wise, or experienced someone is, he'll always slip up sometimes. It doesn't
even have to be in an area where he's complacent or just plain unskilled at.
It sometimes happens even at things where he's normally perfect. Just a fluke
whim of the gods. That's why there's a 1 on the dice, people.
Making plans for your creations to use is good. Abusing the role of DM, with
perfect absolute knowledge of the pcs' plans and abilities, in order to give
your creations a PERFECT plan just to satisfy your ego is not.
I see more reverence given for these overgrown lizards (yes, lizards, dammit,
humans are mammals and dragons are lizards and the first two editions even say
so outright) than I do for the gods themselves, or even the demons and angelic
figures. Plenty of outsiders are not only as old as dragons, they're OLDER,
and many of them are immortal to various degrees, which no dragon is. Why no
drooling over them? Why no proclaimings of "You can't kill a balor! That's
like killing a freaking mountain!"
I mean, really, now. Mope up your drool puddles, people.
Okay, I've had my rant.
::bows with a flourish and exits, stage left::
--
Signing off as Stephen Mackey, the Multi-Threaded RFE Database Liaison.
"Sore wa himitsu desu."
Ben Sisson
that IS his real name) conspiratorially whispered:
>>I doubt anyone would end up attacking a Great Wyrm Red Dragon in his layer
>>"on the spot." What makes more sense is that the PC's know that there is a
>>dragon somewhere, and they want what he has, or otherwise want him out of
>>the way.
>
>If the DM puts a Great Wyrm in the game, it'd better be for a better reason
>than the treasure table. The dragon should have something important, like the
>"Key to the Universe", or should actually be a bad guy/NPC. Not just some
>powerful monster up on the mountain.
>
>Otherwise it turns into the game of who has bigger numbers on their paper. Who
>party can dish out more damage than the dragon can take.
What an absurd thing to say.
Some of us create worlds with more thought behind them than "all NPCs
are targets for the PCs to kill".
I have two distinct great wyrms (and a number of younger dragons) set
in the world right now. One is the ruler of a kingdom of minotaurs,
who see him as their god. The other is a dracoliche and is among the
very top of the ladder in terms of power (but not *at* the top).
Neither, however, is involved in the PC's campaign more than
peripherally. They could go visit them, if they knew where to go and
could get there alive. They are definately in the game. There is
nothing important to the campaign about them.
They're there for flavor, and for potential future campaigns.
>IMHO a Great Wyrm should be treated like a mountain or ocean or something else
>damn big and unbeatable. Sure, you can climb to the top or sail across, but
>it's still there.
The two I just mentioned are strong. Very strong. But in terms of
other things in the campaign world, not unbeatably strong. And I don't
even include gods or outsiders, neither of which has any direct role
in my world. They are simply not unbeatable to the resources some
other societies have.
The great wyrm red dragon leading the minos, for example, is the
single most powerful creature in the area... but not decisively so.
Two other races are nearby. One is a Yuan-ti fortress, and the high
priestesses of that little enclave together would be a serious
challenge in direct combat with the dragon. A situation that neither
side would permit to occur, for obvious reasons. The Yuan-ti also make
somewhat heavy use of enslaved younger white dragons - none
individually even close to the big red in power, but collectively not
to be sneezed at either. The other balancing force is a Formian colony
(IMC formians are native to the plane, not outsiders). Individually
the Formians are gnats to the dragon... but collectively, which is the
Formian's strength, they're not only more than a match, they're
driving back BOTH the minotaurs and the Yuan-ti. Slowly but certainly
they are getting stronger, in a Borg-like way. (they also get to use
white dragon slaves. Poor whiteys. :-) )
Just to add two more things: 1. IMC dragons don't follow alignment
archetypes. They tend towards behavior that would be considered normal
by default D&D but its nowhere even remotely close to universal. If I
usedd alignment IMC they would probably all be considered "usually
neutral", chromatic and metallic alike.
2. My dragons see themselves as dragons first, anything else second,
and value each other the same way. What I mean is, when a red dragon
decides to eat a bunch of sheep from a local farm, and a bunch of
heroes decide to make it stop, the nearby silver dragon is more likely
to aid the red dragon against the heroes than the other way around.
It's not formalized organization and some dragons don't get along with
other dragons just like people in real life, but in general they
follow a "dragon first" platform.
--
Ben Sisson
"I had the opportunity of not using the Internet for a large portion of
the previous night. This turned out to be an intensely positive
experience, as it allowed me to sit back and count the number of ways
the Internet has corrupted me and exposed me to a world of stupidity
and filth that I previously never knew existed."
- Lowtax
Ben Sisson
that IS his real name) conspiratorially whispered:
>
>
>Nockermensch wrote:
>
>> But could you please describe in D&D terms what spells and preparations
>> exactly comprise the dragon's "routine divinations"?
>
>Use the Divination spell every week or so to ask "What is the most
>probable threat to my life," "Who is most likely to take direct action
>against me," and the like. The spell covers a week or so.
I find this unlikely unless the dragon is in a situation that
routinely means defending itself. Maybe thats the default in your
world but I think most dragons would be more secure than that.
Agamemnon
<760d1761.0204...@posting.google.com>:
>"Brett Evill" <ev...@NOSPAM.webone.com.au> wrote in message
>news:<3cbfc91e$1...@iridium.webone.com.au>...
>> In article <3CBFB72F...@bigpond.net.au> , James Carman
>> <lu...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>>
>> >Now, all of this is ruined if the dragon actually moves.
>>
>> Can't the dragon take to the air, cast a bunch of protective spells,
>> and do strafing runs with its breath weapon? Fort save at DC 41 or
>> lose 12 points of Strength each time. You can't dish out enough
>> damage when it is 60' straight up and covered with protective magic.
>> Soon, you will grow weak, and then it will kill you.
>
>
>But when it takes to the air the mob of cohorts and followers that
>high level characters should have (if players were bright enough to
>take the leadership feat) can open up with missles, sure the odds of
>each one hitting suck, but a to hit roll of 20 still lands the missle
>in the dragons hide.
That's a lot of magic arrows. If I were the dragon I'd summon something big
and nasty at the archers and concentrate on the PC's. How about a couatl?
Or an elder elemental?
>Players who forget to have their characters exploit fame and influence
>deseve to die, the leadership feat is a wonderful tool that is easily
>ignored by folks who just don't get it.
Shame that after the first time the characters try this and return home
without their buddies, they're going to have a bitch of a time recruiting a
new bunch. Nobody likes being a scratch monkey.
>Nowhere in the rules does it say a party of 4 PCs doesn't also include
> animal companions, familiars, cohorts, followers, hirelings and
>summoned monsters ,but folks always seem forget that option when
>designing encounters and discussing Dragon and other monster CRs.
That particular door swings both ways. The dragon could have a bunch of
summoning spells. A lvl 19 sorcerer with a godly Charisma can summon a
little army.
- Agamemnon -
Agamemnon
>how to beat any really tough monster with a high CR: Get it while it
Any self-respecting dragon should have permanent alarm spells to warn it of
potential visitors. Also, many eil dragons have a bunch of fanatical koblds
worshipping them, who could keep watch.
- Agamemnon -
Doug Smith
"Ben Sisson" <ilkhanik...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:mg92cugojbjtl6imt...@4ax.com...
<super-snip>
> Just to add two more things: 1. IMC dragons don't follow alignment
> archetypes. They tend towards behavior that would be considered normal
> by default D&D but its nowhere even remotely close to universal. If I
> usedd alignment IMC they would probably all be considered "usually
> neutral", chromatic and metallic alike.
>
> 2. My dragons see themselves as dragons first, anything else second,
> and value each other the same way. What I mean is, when a red dragon
> decides to eat a bunch of sheep from a local farm, and a bunch of
> heroes decide to make it stop, the nearby silver dragon is more likely
> to aid the red dragon against the heroes than the other way around.
> It's not formalized organization and some dragons don't get along with
> other dragons just like people in real life, but in general they
> follow a "dragon first" platform.
You wouldn't have, by chance, read the Dragonrealm series by Richard A.
Knaak? There were only a few metallic dragons (Gold, Silver, Bronze, Iron,
Copper) but their role was rulers, esp. Gold (each clan had a supreme ruler;
Gold was top clan). There were no predefined "good guys, bad guys" though it
was easily seen who was who. For example, the clan that associated with
humans (and elves) a lot was Green, the purple clan actually peacefully
ruled a very large and thriving multi-racial city, as well as the Blue clan.
But the Black, Gray, Red, Brown, White, and sometimes Crystal clans usually
meant to attack all other races. But above all else, the different clans who
usually fought against one another, would aid each other in certain
situations, just because they were dragons.
- Doug -
Sorcier
Too problems, one you hint at.
A smart dragon establishes traps or alarms.
And all dragons have extremely keen senses.
They may sleep a lot, but I'd say they likely have the
"light sleeper advantage".
A single hobbit rogue sneaking around might be able to avoid
awakening a dragon, but one slip and it's over.
--
"Trust, but verify."
- St. Thomas (?)
Eskil Lauritsen
> rope trick + bag of holding = big boom next to the dragon? Shoving a
> dimensional hole into a dimensional hole causes nice, big explosions.
> Indeed, this was used to kill a purple worm in a game I was in last week.
> Unfortunately , we cant find the rules for the level of damage that
occurs
> when yo do this, so the GM ( who was familiar with 2nd ed. rules on
> suchthings ) merely stated the resulting explosion killed the wyrm....
along
> with the party as it leveled the better part of the dungeon we were in.Oh
> well, win some, lose some....
>
From the WotC D&D FAQ:
"Spells that produce their own extradimensional spaces, such as rope
trick, pose no danger to occupants who may be using portabel holes,
bags of holding, and the like."
So, no explosion, no dead wyrm but a dead party?
-Eskil Lauritsen
Vlad2 Matt
>>than the treasure table. The dragon should have something important, like
>the
>>"Key to the Universe", or should actually be a bad guy/NPC. Not just some
>>powerful monster up on the mountain.
>>
>>Otherwise it turns into the game of who has bigger numbers on their paper.
>Who
>>party can dish out more damage than the dragon can take.
>
>What an absurd thing to say.
>
>Some of us create worlds with more thought behind them than "all NPCs
>are targets for the PCs to kill".
Sorry, I failed to convey what I meant. Your use of dragons is exactly how I
think it should be done. What I meant to say is that if the DM is putting a
Great Wyrm in the game for the PC's to fight, there should be some compelling
reason to do so.
>The two I just mentioned are strong. Very strong. But in terms of
>other things in the campaign world, not unbeatably strong.
Nor should they be. But beating them wouldn't be easy right? Or simply an
exercise in high-level bashing? More to it than we hit, he hits, we hit, he
dies, give us XP.
And given the geo-political complexity of your campaign, it'd be more important
that just killing a big lizard.
>they also get to use
>white dragon slaves. Poor whiteys. :-)
Did you have a bad experience with white's as a young PC? You seem to have
some sort of hostility towards them... :-)
V II
Vlad2 Matt
>unbeatable?
Not unbeatable. Just more inclined to not sit around waiting for somebody to
come kill it. IMO should be used as an NPC that shapes/flavors the world. Not
just another dumb monster to beat.
V II
V II
Justin Bacon
>Sorry, I failed to convey what I meant. Your use of dragons is exactly how I
>think it should be done. What I meant to say is that if the DM is putting a
>Great Wyrm in the game for the PC's to fight, there should be some compelling
>reason to do so.
Shouldn't that be true of *everything* the PCs fight, though?
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Arandor
> Hence, in a nutshell, the DM was stupid...
The default answer when a dragon of any level is defeated, no?
> A dragon of that level should have made short work of
> your party...
You bother to check the defenses such a party has?
> if nothing else, the dragon should have been on the wing
The dragon *was* on the wing. So was everyone in the party. The battle
was taking place at speeds in excess of 200. :-)
> or attacking with all it could...
And then what?
Breath weapon is *irrelevant* until blast *4* or so.
Attack the spellcasters in melee? Go ahead and try, and find that you
don't get a save against Antilife Shell, and that 20th level casters
with Spell Power +3 and Greater Spell Penetration *can* break SR.
Attack the fighter in melee? Actually the best option. But on the
wing, you have one attack. The fighter has enough hit points to last
even 3, 4 rounds against that bite, even *if* the dragon bites all the
way through (Power Attack). And unless the dragon wants to be helpless
against other members moving in, the fighter could actually win the
grapple check and get out of there. Or just put some hurting on the
dragon.
Or are you suggesting using spells, when you're a mere 19th level
caster on your own, versus two Hasted 20th level casters, both readied
to counterspell after casting their spells?
For all its powers, a dragon is a melee monster with spell backup. It
has nice saves and good SR, but both *can* be avoided. One or two
Energy Drains *can* hurt it - two 20th level casters can have 9 or 10
between them, not counting bonus spells. The cleric can have his
maximized easily.
Dragons can be defeated, even if the GM plays it smart. Live with it.
Cheers,
Arandor
Helpful GM
tria...@aol.com (Justin Bacon) wrote:
IMO, an adventure completely lacking in random encounters is boring,
just as a game of all random encounters would be.
Sometimes stuff is "just there." I guess you could say the "reason" is
"to make the game more fun", but that seems weak, in this context.
Specifically, it's important to have things of "lesser meaning" (every
category -- combat, parley, etc.) so that those of greater meaning will
stand out. Also, "red herrings" make for a more interesting game. A
bad example: "Aha! That red wrym wouldn't be there unless he was
guarding something important, let's go kill it."
--
You have to remove stuff from my e-mail to reply, it's not difficult.
I never purchase anything from unsolicited commercial e-mail. Ever.
I do not speak for anyone and typically don't like if they try to speak for me.
Everything here is my personal opinion, do with it what you will.
Varl
Yes, other than an occasional random encounter, where the PCs cross over
the crest of a hill and something just happens to be passing through
just like the PCs, or something similar.
--
"Sir, ar you Human?"
"Negative, I am a meat popsicle."
Michael Schneider
> For all its powers, a dragon is a melee monster with spell backup. It
> has nice saves and good SR, but both *can* be avoided. One or two
> Energy Drains *can* hurt it - two 20th level casters can have 9 or 10
> between them, not counting bonus spells. The cleric can have his
> maximized easily.
>
> Dragons can be defeated, even if the GM plays it smart. Live with it.
A GM, playing a smart dragon realizes that it's as old as the hills and
therefore has *incredible* amounts of time to make preparations.
A Great Wyrm could:
- Permanant Symbol every object in its lair, and every humanoid-made
dwelling in the realm (highly specialized triggers for the latter).
- Greater Scry virtually any location, continuously.
- Possess inexhaustible wealth: It can afford unlimited spell componants.
- Have multiple familiars in the form of high-level influential NPCs
(kings, etc) and thousands of indirect followers (king's army, etc).
In short, you could probably think, to yourself, about killing a Great
Wyrm within a thousand miles of its lair and get away with it. Anything
beyond that, and it will very likely be aware of what you're up to long
before you're anywhere close to actually putting your plans into practice.
--
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/American_Liberty/files/links.htm
Reply to mike1@@@usfamily.net sans two @@, or your reply won't reach me.
Neil Alexander
James Carman wrote in message <3CBFB827...@bigpond.net.au>...
>Henry Cotter wrote:
>>
>>
>> Well, sure. But my point was that the CR on a great wyrm gold dragon
>> seems to be ridiculously low.
>>
>
>Yes, I think many people on the NG think the CR is way too low. For dragons
of
>all types (see the thread about wraiths vs young red dragons).
I seem to recall it being writ somewhere that a dragon's CR is that for a
party which is loaded for that type of dragon and knows what they are doing.
i.e. done the research, got the anti-breath weapon defenses, got attacks
that go for the dragon's "weaknesses" (by this, they mean stuff that it's
not immune or 50% resistant to).
I would say for a dragon you are not set up for, the CR should be multiplied
by about 1.5
ECCE
--
"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life.
Can you give it to them?
Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement."
Sorcier
>
> IMO, an adventure completely lacking in random encounters is boring,
> just as a game of all random encounters would be.
How would you be with seemingly random?
The orcs are there for a reason.
The orcs know the reason.
The PC might not ever know and the reason would have nothing to
do with the currect plot.
So it would SEEM random to the players.
(And the players would seem random to the orcs.)
> Sometimes stuff is "just there." I guess you could say the "reason" is
> "to make the game more fun", but that seems weak, in this context.
Of course the DM can plan what things will be "just there".
And if it doesn't make the game more fun, what's the point. ;)
> Specifically, it's important to have things of "lesser meaning" (every
> category -- combat, parley, etc.) so that those of greater meaning will
> stand out.
True.
I don't think this requires true randomness though.
Helpful GM
> Helpful GM wrote:
> > IMO, an adventure completely lacking in random encounters is boring,
> > just as a game of all random encounters would be.
> How would you be with seemingly random?
Of course, I prefer "seemingly interesting" -- but surprizes are good
things, IMO.
> The orcs are there for a reason.
> The orcs know the reason.
> The PC might not ever know and the reason would have nothing to
> do with the currect plot.
> So it would SEEM random to the players.
> (And the players would seem random to the orcs.)
Yeah, that's what my players thought when they attacked 4 bands of 6
hobgobins on 4 days in a row, then the 5th day, they were chased by 200
hobgoblins. "Where did they come from?!" they asked. "They were always
there -- well, not THERE, but not far off", I said. "You're lying",
they accused. "Maybe... ;D", I replied.
I wasn't, but neither had I intended for them to encounter the 200
hobgoblins, yet. But you can never predict what players are going to
do... :D
> > Specifically, it's important to have things of "lesser meaning" (every
> > category -- combat, parley, etc.) so that those of greater meaning will
> > stand out.
> True.
> I don't think this requires true randomness though.
Sure -- and you can always argue that nothing's random -- I mean, the DM
*DECIDES* to use the random encounter table or not, so he DECIDES to
have an encounter, and just uses the table to pick which one. But
that's a silly technicality. What I mean is, it spices things up to
have the occasional surprize -- the "seemingly random", as you say --
but can be just as bad if there are no surprizes than if every moment is
"what, *another* surprize???"
Back to the wyrm -- having him there as a major plot element is one way
to have him there. Another is to have him as background. I.e., the
peasants all say "don't go to the mountain of fire, an evil dragon lives
there, and we do not wish to bring his wrath upon our village", but with
no other real tie-in to the campaign plot.
Of course, the best way to get players to put beans in their ears is to
tell them "don't put beans in your ears"... :)
Doug Lampert
> In article <916560b6.02041...@posting.google.com> ,
> doug.l...@tdytsi.com (Doug Lampert) wrote:
>
> >mano...@webtv.net (Henry Cotter) wrote in message
> >news:<26141-3C...@storefull-2315.public.lawson.webtv.net>...
> >
> >> So how would anyone suggest beating one with a party of 4 26th
> >> level adventurers? This is what I'm basically wondering.
> >
> >Assuming the party has one round to prepare or a surprise round:
>
> Bad assumption. The dragon has 'Foresight' up, having been warned by its
> routine divinations in what 3-hour period to expect attack.
And both the party Wizard and the party Cleric are of much higher level
with spells that can block divinations. And rings of mindshielding are
cheap. In practice one round of surprise is not unreasonable, and even
lacking it the party is still likely to win.
At level 26 they simply have too many "bang! you're dead!" powers.
Vorpal weapons are common, nineth level magic is routine, +50 or more to
skills is not at all surprising.
I did not even use timestop, and the Wizard casting Timestop is BETTER than
everything I did give them.
DougL
Justin Bacon
>Yes, other than an occasional random encounter, where the PCs cross over
>the crest of a hill and something just happens to be passing through
>just like the PCs, or something similar.
Even then, I like my random encounters to have a meaning. You may have randomly
bumped into the hobgoblins, but the hobgoblins are there for a reason. (My
random encounter tables always take this into account; and when they don't I
improvise.)
I've also been known to include dragons on my random encounter tables --
usually as distant shapes on the horizon; occasionally as closer fly-bys. Once
I even had a hungry young dragon attack the PCs randomly. They investigated and
discovered that another group had killed the young dragon's parents, but had
missed the kid. That was an interesting session of improv.
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Justin Bacon
>Or are you suggesting using spells, when you're a mere 19th level
>caster on your own, versus two Hasted 20th level casters, both readied
>to counterspell after casting their spells?
How do they ready a counterspell after casting their spells? I suppose they
could tagteam their counterspell readying.
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Michael Schneider
Arandor (qq...@oce.nl) wrote:
> Attack the fighter in melee? Actually the best option. But on the
> wing, you have one attack. The fighter has enough hit points to last
> even 3, 4 rounds against that bite, even *if* the dragon bites all the
> way through (Power Attack).
You better believe he's going to Power-Attack if you're already stuck
in his jaws.
> And unless the dragon wants to be helpless
> against other members moving in, the fighter could actually win the
> grapple check and get out of there.
Doubtful: A Great Wyrm's grapple bonus is on the high side of +70.
Kidz? Disregard that picture on PHB p124: Do _not_ try this at home.
Fitz
Yes, but sometimes the compelling reason is "The game is dragging and
I'm lacking in inspiration tonight".
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Fitz
http://mojobob.netnet.net.nz
http://fitz.jsr.com
http://usa.spis.co.nz/fitz
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Justin Bacon
>I did not even use timestop, and the Wizard casting Timestop is BETTER than
>everything I did give them.
Yeah. Scry, Maximized Timestop, Teleport without Error, Harm (with spell
penetration, from the Ring the 26th level Cleric made for you), Power Word
Kill, Teleport without Error, Scry to make sure everything worked the way you
wanted it to. If it didn't, repeat.
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Michael Schneider
tria...@aol.com (Justin Bacon) wrote:
You do realize that if the game now allows "epic" level characters (to
keep all us addicted munchkins buying more and more suppliments), that
3,000 year-old dragons are eventually going to take a level jump from 19
to about 49 to keep ahead of things?
Arandor
> A GM, playing a smart dragon realizes that it's as old as the hills and
> therefore has *incredible* amounts of time to make preparations.
But not enough resources to make preparations that *can not be
broken*. Just because you've got a mere 1000 years to be ready,
doesn't mean you are undefeatable.
The point is not that it's *easy*. The "solutions" nearly always
require just about everything the party *has*.
IRL, people *have* broken into seemingly impregnable defenses. The
time to prepare is, after a certain point, irrelevant. It's just a
matter of patience, finding the weak spots (and don't say that there
aren't any; there always are) and then striking as unexpectedly as
possible. You can come quite close.
> A Great Wyrm could:
>
> - Permanant Symbol every object in its lair, and every humanoid-made
> dwelling in the realm (highly specialized triggers for the latter).
And? The 20th level characters will just make their saves and be done
with it.
> - Greater Scry virtually any location, continuously.
You know how Scry *works*? You can scry for *people*, not *locations*.
Are you seriously suggesting that the Dragon scries each and every
person known to him in the realm, continuously? Not only does the
Dragon not have nearly enough Greater Scrying spells to do that, it's
also irrelevant.
We're not from the kingdom, sorry. You don't know us. Mind Blank.
Please do try to Scry me. That isn't even a small part of a 26th level
party's repertoire. Mord's Private Sanctum is even better. If you're
up to forging big plans, you always make sure that a Scry spell
doesn't do diddly squat. Which means just about every 9th+ level
wizkid has adequate protection from *that*.
> - Possess inexhaustible wealth: It can afford unlimited spell componants.
Too bad it can't cast much of anything when the fight is actually
going to begin. Mass Haste, Mord's Discjunction, then follow up with
casting a spell and readying to counterspell. We're 26th level
casters, you're 19th. Have fun with your components.
Note that there *are* spells that can make getting into the lair
non-trivial. But so what? The dragon has to eat at times, or might
just want to take a stroll. Strike *then*.
Or are you seriously suggesting that a creature of such power is going
to keep hidden in his lair, afraid that the bad PCs will come to
slaughter it?
> - Have multiple familiars in the form of high-level influential NPCs
> (kings, etc) and thousands of indirect followers (king's army, etc).
Those Symbols in its lair had better be *damn* good. (Guess you can't
make them to trigger "when a human comes by". :-) And, of course,
those followers are going to be walking 20 ft behind the dragon at all
times, hmm?
Ah, you mean Teleport. You realize the battle can be over by the time
the Dragon can call on his buddies, they prepare, and Teleport in?
Not to mention that 26th level characters can have a little following
of their own. All they need do is, say, stir up a war and divide said
kingdom's attention.
> In short, you could probably think, to yourself, about killing a Great
> Wyrm within a thousand miles of its lair and get away with it. Anything
> beyond that, and it will very likely be aware of what you're up to long
> before you're anywhere close to actually putting your plans into practice.
In short, the Dragon is *toast* if clever PCs put their minds to it.
Without any chance, whatsoever.
It will, however, cost considerebly more than just 20% of their
resources. It is going to be a fight to remember. Or rather, a
preparation to remember.
Cheers,
Arandor
Arivne
>
<snip>
>
> "Trust, but verify."
> - St. Thomas (?)
Ex-president Ronald Reagan used the phrase during disarmament talks
with the Soviets. It's a translation of an old Russian proverb:
"Doveryai no proveryai."
Arivne
Vlad2 Matt
> You do realize that if the game now allows "epic" level characters (to
>keep all us addicted munchkins buying more and more suppliments), that
>3,000 year-old dragons are eventually going to take a level jump from 19
>to about 49 to keep ahead of things?
>
There's a thread titled "tactical instability" in rec.games.frp.advocacy that
started with the question that at high levels, it seems to come down to whoever
gets to attack first. It specifically dealt with the ambush you can use with
scry and teleport.
One of the ideas presented is that over time, if parties teleporting into
fortresses and wiping out the occupants was common, defenses that aren't
currently in the book would be developed to counter the tactic.
From Justin Bacon:
""Yeah. Scry, Maximized Timestop, Teleport without Error, Harm (with spell
penetration, from the Ring the 26th level Cleric made for you), Power Word
Kill, Teleport without Error, Scry to make sure everything worked the way you
wanted it to. If it didn't, repeat.""
Not many things that can stand up to that. So after you used this "unbeatable"
(and it is) technique a couple times, the high level badguys would build the
rock to your scissors.
The dragons would advance in level to avoid getting killed at your leisure.
Anti-timestop spells and zones would be developed. Hell, anti-everything
spells would be developed. Null-magic areas. Or, even meaner, YOUR magic
won't work here, but if you have a ring like this one, it will......oh, and no
save against the effect.
(I can hear the "that's not fair" already.
As is the game is set up for attack. The countering part of the game really
isn't there. Right now I can stop you from getting info from scrying or detect
it, but I can't stop you from trying over and over. Now a spell that has
ethereal knives gouge the scryer's eyes out might make the caster wary of
trying to find out what the opponent is doing...... And after a couple times,
the caster would develop "anti-eye blade anti-scry defense". Maybe a spell
cast and maintained by another during the scrying. And so on.
To finish: now high level NPC's are living in unpenetrable fortresses where
nothing currently in the book will work. What's a 26th level character to
do.......
Swing the pendelum the other way. Now anit-anti-spells are developed (what
else are does a PC have to do with his xp and money????) Maybe advance a few
levels and try again at 30th... Continue to run the arms race.
An example (and no, I don't really expect you to include tanks in your
campaigns)
NPC develops tank, PC's build anti-tank gun. NPC makes armor thicker, PC makes
gun bigger, NPC more armor, PC new ammo to defeat armor, NPC new armor to
defeat new ammo...........
(Substitue scry, timestop, or teleport for tank.)
V II
Sorcier
I know. ;)
--
Varl
Those are very good points. I also like most of my encounters to have a
reason for being. Note I said most. Occasionally, it's nice to have
something happen which has absolute nothing to do with the particular
adventure they're on. They just ran into whatever it is. This way, you
don't always have to come up with a rationale why they ran into X.
Sometimes, it just happens. Nature, and all that.
Malachias Invictus
"Nockermensch" <nocker...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4769522f.02041...@posting.google.com...
> Your evil cleric creates a spectre. He can control it by sucessfully
> rebuking it. Now, he sends the spectre against the first peasant
> village they stuble upon. The spectre kills everybody there (without
> any trouble) and for each dead creature there's another spectre in 1-4
> rounds, *under control of the spectre the cleric is controling*.
> That's a spectre army for you, guys. Let's say, for the sake of
> brevity, that the cleric gets 40 spectres this way.
First of all, it takes a standard action to give commands to each commanded
undead creature (PHB p. 140). Second, any GM worth his weight in salt
applies the HD limit for controlled undead, and disallows your pyramid
scheme beyond the HD limit. Alternatively, the GM rules that while the
original Spectre is under your control and must do what you say, his spawn
are under no such compulsion, and he has them attack you.
--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.
from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
Justin Bacon
>In article <20020420205032...@mb-fg.aol.com>,
>tria...@aol.com (Justin Bacon) wrote:
>
>> DougL wrote:
>> >I did not even use timestop, and the Wizard casting Timestop is BETTER
>than
>> >everything I did give them.
>>
>> Yeah. Scry, Maximized Timestop, Teleport without Error, Harm (with spell
>> penetration, from the Ring the 26th level Cleric made for you), Power Word
>> Kill, Teleport without Error, Scry to make sure everything worked the way
>you
>> wanted it to. If it didn't, repeat.
>
>
> You do realize that if the game now allows "epic" level characters (to
>keep all us addicted munchkins buying more and more suppliments), that
>3,000 year-old dragons are eventually going to take a level jump from 19
>to about 49 to keep ahead of things?
Pretty much irrelevant. The sequence I demonstrate (although really the Scry
should follow the Maximized Timestop so that the dragon has absolutely no
chance of preventing it) is pretty much unstoppable in one form or another.
Which is why I'm particularly interested to see the EPIC LEVEL HANDBOOK -- I'm
hoping they've actually figured out some way around this fundamental power
plateau.
JB
Malachias Invictus
"Henry Cotter" <mano...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:26141-3C...@storefull-2315.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> Looking at the CR of the great wyrm gold dragon, I see it is
> a 26.
They should have a CR *at least* equal to their HD. I usually add two to
this, and it comes out about right. Of course, I then play them without
mercy (I have also dumped the "Fire subtype" crap from Reds and the like).
Malachias Invictus
"Arandor" <qq...@oce.nl> wrote in message
news:faf084f5.02042...@posting.google.com...
> Walt Harris <walth...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:<3CC020C4...@mindspring.com>...
> > Hence, in a nutshell, the DM was stupid...
>
> The default answer when a dragon of any level is defeated, no?
When the dragon does not even bother casting haste, yes.
Mike Bruner
magic aid, is it possible to take out a Great Wyrm by going after the actual
lair itself? I mean, even a Great Wyrm will have problems with several tons
of rock landing on its head (at the least, it kills the whole "fly away" and
"cast nasty spells" angles if it's merely pinned instead of crushed dead
outright). As was mentioned elsewhere, it may not be practical for a 26th
level party to destroy a mountain, but it should be possible. Of course, if
the dragon isn't caught by rubble, trouble may ensue (see the movie
Dragonslayer for more details on this one...). Failing that, 26th level
characters probably ought to be able to arrange access to an army (theirs or
someone else's; particularly clever ones will get an enemy to want to kill
the dragon, then pounce on the weakened winner of the conflict) - assuming
there's a reason to killing the dragon beyond "it'd be cool", one could
certainly get support (a rampaging Great Wyrm would certainly leave a lot of
angry people behind it (or at least concern those nearby, if survivors "left
behind" are too rare)). Also, powerful things, be they kings or dragons,
most likely have enemies to consider; think about making friends with said
enemies. Finally, in high enough powered campaigns 26th level characters
might have artifacts, and slaying nasty unbeatable things with a miraculous
artifact is certainly classic fantasy.
Some things to keep in mind though that a lot of people seem to keep
forgetting when writing the dragon's response's though. First, any
divination the dragon has works both ways. If there's no way to block
divination spells, then there's nothing keeping PCs from scrying the dragon
thoroughly too; if there is, I think it's certainly plausible that PCs can
arrange access to blocking themselves. Besides, pay a bunch of different
people gold to brag about plans to take out the Great Wyrm in taverns around
the area and watch the dragon try to figure out the legitimate threats from
the dross. Or for more fun and games have a PC research spells to confuse
the results; nothing like convincing the dragon to "make a preemptive
strike" against that nearby evil cult that's "planning an attack". And as
always, spells can be dispelled; those permanent Alarms aren't much good if
the 26th level magic folks dispel them (and by definition they have a higher
caster level than the 19th level sorcerer dragon!).
The other thing with the dragon being a 19th level sorcerer is, it does
have a limit on the total spells it can know. Having a countermeasure for
EVERYTHING is somewhat tricky, even with magic items (assuming the dragon
can handle them; I doubt it can wield the medium sized swords or wands in
its horde terribly well). Assuming the dragon will ALWAYS have the proper
magic to handle a situation is cheating; remember, it will want magic for
purposes other than crushing adventurers too. The foes that can threaten a
Great Wyrm even if they did surprise it are few and far between in most
campaigns; unless it's specifically paranoid in the true "insane obsession"
sense of the word it's not going to try to take EVERY possible precaution,
simply because the upkeep of such defenses starts becoming more bother than
it's worth after a certain reasonable (abeit high) level. Would you care to
re-secure 50+ locks every time you went out and came back? And what's it
gonna do if its hair-trigger defenses automatically vaporize that maiden it
brought home for a snack/ransom?
Finally, the other thing to keep in mind about powerful beasties like
great wyrms is that, like many powerful beings, they have a strong danger
towards pride. Sure, it's tempered by experience, but if most 20th+ level
characters would probably assume they could handle "a few orcs", it might
have a similar perspective towards the PCs that winds up getting it as
easily bitten in the rear as that attitude could get the PCs.
--
Mike Bruner-m...@WANTNOSPAMcomcast.net
"Yes, I am a servant of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial".
My wife went to Vorbarr Sultana and all I got was this bloody shopping bag.
Nelmes, D
> Yeah. Scry, Maximized Timestop, Teleport without Error, Harm (with spell
> penetration, from the Ring the 26th level Cleric made for you), Power Word
> Kill, Teleport without Error, Scry to make sure everything worked the way you
> wanted it to. If it didn't, repeat.
How does one Maximize Timestop? I thought that you needed to use a spell slot
three levels higher to memorize a maximized spell?
--
David
Brett Evill
<dj...@york.ac.uk> wrote:
>How does one Maximize Timestop? I thought that you needed to use a spell slot
>three levels higher to memorize a maximized spell?
Who knows? Maybe you get 13th-level spells slots starting at 25th level.
--
Regards,
Brett Evill
<ev...@NO.webone.JUNK.com.MAIL.au>
Arandor
> When the dragon does not even bother casting haste, yes.
The dragon did cast Haste. Problem is, he didn't have it anymore after
Mord's Disjunction...
Good luck casting it again.
Cheers,
Arandor
Andrew Tellez
Nockermensch wrote:
>
> Andrew Tellez <no...@gwu.edu> wrote in message news:<3CC07224...@gwu.edu>...
> > Use Legend Lore on oneself, one's possessions, one's lair, one's allies,
> > and any results from the Divination spells.
>
> Uh... what kind of relevant info will Legend Lore give? This
> divination works on the past, and the dragon is interested in his
> future.
As a PC, I use Legend Lore on myself, my allies, and our unusual gear so
that I'll know what information other people casting the spell will
get. The dragon is advised to do the same. IIRC, anyone above level 10
counts as legendary for the spell.
> > Squeeze Commune questions out of Quasits called with Lesser Planar
> > Binding.
>
> Oh, evil. I like this kind of devious use for creature's powers.
Well, I'd expect the dragonslayers to do it, too. And both would end up
with a good many Mind Blank-induced non-answers.
> > They aren't? And they lived this long? Did they wander in from the
> > thread about high-powered low-aged characters?
>
> Why, of course. Wizard has 19 years, cleric has 18. They're killing
> the dragon just for the kicks. (seriously!)
They're in for a long and bitter proxy war between two foes of similar
resources. I imagine the fight ends when one side pays the other to
leave it alone.
> > I assume that the dragon would be similarly protected, after all, he's
> > using the tricks.
>
> Pheh, the dragon is a sorcerer. This means an awfully limited spell
> selection.
High-level creatures without Mind Blank get Darwinized. He can use
Greater Planar Binding to get something that can Mind Blank him, or have
an item made, or something.
> from huge lists. And since you mentioned divination, how about using
> it for discovering all the spells a dragon knows?
Quite useful. I'd block this strategy through a misinformation
campaign. The dragon described in the legends is not the same as the
dragon on the treasure pile. Careful attention to detail will get one's
enemies looking for the fictional dragon. It's not foolproof, but
getting bards to spread tales isn't expensive, either.
> - Once you get the spectre army, haste everybody and fly to the
> dragon's lair. The dragon won't be expecting this since all the
> preparation was made via mind blanked people.
Spectre conversion is fast enough that any agents probably won't notice
the sudden buildup, either.
> The cleric and the wizard make sure they're protected against the breath
> weapons.
At dragon-slaying levels, I usually consider the breath weapon a
non-issue for the principals. If you aren't immune, you don't show up.
> - Once in the cave, wizard casts a wall of stone between them and the
> dragon.
Assuming a small enough cave. Alternately, the wizard and his dozen
Simulacra cast Wall of Stone several times.
> enough for the dragon using his natural attacks. cleric readies to
> counterspell. spectres (which this time spread inside the lair walls
> and will attack from all sides) charge and then hit again, since
Assuming this isn't the dragon's Simulacrum, it probably dies, or
reveals some drain immunity. Or has a Contingent Teleport triggered.
> If the dragon tries to cast a spell. Cleric readied dispel magic
> strikes. It's a luck thing, but the cleric CL (26) makes sure that
> things are weighted for our slayers.
Cleric is also using Incense of Meditation, a Bead of Karma, and
possibly a Candle of Invocation. Don't forget the cheap advantages.
The Cleric probably has Simulacra as well.
Under attack from an in-wall spectre army, spellcasting is ineffective.
The dragon activates a magic item to become ethereal, or uses an
item-based withdrawal.
> If the dragon charges against the casters, hopefully the wall of stone
> will resist at least one round.
I'd probably use a Wall of Force instead, or a Forcecage on the wizard
to keep the dragon out.
> be able to do a full attack, so he won't kill any of them in the first
> round, and he'll be dead at the end of it anyway (at the spectres'
> initiative). Have the cleric AND the wizard ready to counterspell.
If he's got it, the cleric should use Slime Wave. If not, have some of
the Simulacra attack with Green Slime in jars.
A few weeks later, the dragon's contracted True Ressurection is cast,
and he goes shopping for another lair.
JDJarvis
followers for dragon hunting at such high levels , but the pc's likely
do have the means to do so by the time they are 25th level or higher.
> Shame that after the first time the characters try this and return home
> without their buddies, they're going to have a bitch of a time recruiting a
> new bunch. Nobody likes being a scratch monkey.
But if the players try this and return as victorious they are very
likely to have no trouble recruiting the sort of psychos that would
want to be part of such heroic and epic battles (yeah it will offset
leadership scores, but only by a couple of points) or at least try to
glom onto the fame just by association. the real trick as I see it
would be in getting them to go along with any such dragon hunitng
mission in the first place.
> That particular door swings both ways. The dragon could have a bunch of
> summoning spells. A lvl 19 sorcerer with a godly Charisma can summon a
> little army.
> - Agamemnon -
I agree with you there, but it is still an issue of 1 spell caster(the
dragon) against 2 or more spell casters (wizard and cleric at least)
and a group of folks with powerful magicitems and a virtual army of
followers walking arround with cast-off gear the PC's don't need
anymore. A 20th level + character could easily have over 100 followers
able to use scrolls to aid in battle, it sounds bonkers but It isn't
improbable.
JDJarvis
> Any self-respecting dragon should have permanent alarm spells to warn it of
> potential visitors. Also, many eil dragons have a bunch of fanatical koblds
> worshipping them, who could keep watch.
>
> - Agamemnon -
Certainly, I didn't say it should be easy to sneak up on a dragon
while it is sleeping, but if a party can pull it off they win. One
reason a party should be small, most of the time, instead of an army
is so you can sneak up on things not much treasure to be gained if the
thoughies as always ready for you and the wimps are running away with
the loot.
Agamemnon
<6fd19b61.02042...@posting.google.com>:
>> Shame that after the first time the characters try this and return
>> home without their buddies, they're going to have a bitch of a time
>> recruiting a new bunch. Nobody likes being a scratch monkey.
>
>But if the players try this and return as victorious they are very
>likely to have no trouble recruiting the sort of psychos that would
>want to be part of such heroic and epic battles (yeah it will offset
>leadership scores, but only by a couple of points) or at least try to
>glom onto the fame just by association. the real trick as I see it
>would be in getting them to go along with any such dragon hunitng
>mission in the first place.
Successful of not, we're still talking about a high fatality rate,
especially if those are low-level henchmen. A single summoned monster (from
SM III, for example) can kill quite a lot of commoners.
>> That particular door swings both ways. The dragon could have a bunch
>> of summoning spells. A lvl 19 sorcerer with a godly Charisma can
>> summon a little army.
>I agree with you there, but it is still an issue of 1 spell caster(the
>dragon) against 2 or more spell casters (wizard and cleric at least)
>and a group of folks with powerful magicitems and a virtual army of
>followers walking arround with cast-off gear the PC's don't need
>anymore. A 20th level + character could easily have over 100 followers
>able to use scrolls to aid in battle, it sounds bonkers but It isn't
>improbable.
I'm sure that any evil great wyrm could easily recruit/intimidate a bunch
of kobold sorcerers or a couple of tribes of orcs to help. And good dragons
are abound to have a lot of folks who owe them a favor (celestials, stupid
adventurers that the said dragon has saved).
- Agamemnon -
Nockermensch
> "Nockermensch" <nocker...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4769522f.02041...@posting.google.com...
>
> > Your evil cleric creates a spectre. He can control it by sucessfully
> > rebuking it. Now, he sends the spectre against the first peasant
> > village they stuble upon. The spectre kills everybody there (without
> > any trouble) and for each dead creature there's another spectre in 1-4
> > rounds, *under control of the spectre the cleric is controling*.
> > That's a spectre army for you, guys. Let's say, for the sake of
> > brevity, that the cleric gets 40 spectres this way.
>
> First of all, it takes a standard action to give commands to each commanded
> undead creature (PHB p. 140). Second, any GM worth his weight in salt
> applies the HD limit for controlled undead, and disallows your pyramid
> scheme beyond the HD limit. Alternatively, the GM rules that while the
> original Spectre is under your control and must do what you say, his spawn
> are under no such compulsion, and he has them attack you.
The spectres have inteligence. Also, they understand language. Unless
the DM isn't being fair (he shouldn't, as the players are trying to
kill a dragon, and everybody knows this is impossible), it should be a
matter of *saying* in plain old common for the spectres "prepare to
charge the dragon when we teleport in". Or if you want to be anal, the
cleric uses one standart action to give the order for *his* spectre
and *his* spectre then spends 39 rounds giving orders for spectre
soldiers #1-39. All these occour before teleport, while the wizard
polishes his nails and chews gun.
As for the spectres attacking the spellcasters, it can be expected, of
course. That's why both cleric and wizard are warded by negative
energy protection. They treat the spectres with extreme violence (some
torture involving wall of force, rebuking attempts and sunlight) and
tell them that their only chance to be freed is to obbey.
And of course, the DM can rule that the HD limit for controlled undead
is indeed the absolute total of undeads following him in a fight,
instead the total of creatures under his absolute control. But if this
kind of house ruling is permited, then I don't see the point of
arguing. I was under the impression these discussions should follow
official published rules.
@ @ Nockermensch, there must be ways to make undead cooperate, or
dungeons wouldn't exist.
Bradd W. Szonye
>> Or are you suggesting using spells, when you're a mere 19th level
>> caster on your own, versus two Hasted 20th level casters, both
>> readied to counterspell after casting their spells?
Justin Bacon <tria...@aol.com> wrote:
> How do they ready a counterspell after casting their spells?
Using their extra partial action from /haste/ to take a Ready action,
perhaps?
--
Bradd W. Szonye Work: br...@cup.hp.com
Software Design Engineer Home: bra...@concentric.net
Hewlett-Packard, Cupertino Phone: 408-447-4832
maddman
> I know it's not this easy, but what is the Fortitude DC of a lvl 26 Wizard's
> Finger of Death spell? (The Wyrm's SR isn't an extremely factor, as the wiz
> only needs to roll a 6 to affect the dragon)
>
> - Doug -
It isn't dependant on level. The DC for a spell is 10+Int
modifier+level of the spell.
Assuming a 22 Int(fairly conservative for the character in question -
he'll have gotten +6 from levels, plus the ever popular stat boosting
items - the Finger of Death (7th IIRC) would have a DC or 23. IOW, it
might tickle the dragon a bit, but you aren't going to hurt him with
it.
K2_Greyhame
> Ahem.
>
> A great wyrm for nearly any color is, in addition to its physical
> qualities, a high level sorcerer. I happen to recall that Big Red is
> 19th, giving him a lot of options.
>
> Like any other high level epic battle, it comes to intiative. Between
> the dragon and the spellcasters, because of that oh-so broken spell,
> Time Stop. PCs get one off, the wizard disenchants/penetrated/blasts
> the dragon out of existance.
>
> However, if the dragon gets one off, things can get rather interesting
> rather quickly.
IMHO the best way to do the whole thing would be this:
As soon as the party comes near and is in line of sight of the dragon,
the dragon Teleports out. Hopefully, the party's plans would not
involve the dragon suddenly vanishing in the middle of anything. The
dragon casts Haste and Teleports w/o Error back in near the ceiling.
It falls on the entire party, causing a ton of confusion as they all
get scattered, and in the chaos the dragon casts Mordenkainen's
Disjunction. The next thing would be to get off the Time Stop from a
scroll and then breathe fire on the mage, hopefully that kills him,
and then do something about the cleric. Once the mage and the cleric
are dead the fight will probably become much easier.
The dragon could trigger various items in his lair to go and blast
away with Lightning Bolts, Fireballs, whichever element the dragon is
immune to, and get them to activate (probably through command word)
after the Mordenkainen's Disjunction. MD would remove any protections
against such. Even if the objects don't even aim right, they're bound
to hit something, and if they hit the dragon it doesn't matter, but if
they hit the party it'll be another concentration check, and it'd make
it even harder for the party to figure out what's going on. If the
objects could be made to aim at the party in some way (blast at
whatever the dragon is attacking?) it'd be nasty.
The dragon could rig some system to collapse the ceiling, but that
wouldn't really be a good option unless it wants to repair the ceiling
everytime some moron comes in. Maybe, if the dragon teleported out of
the lair without a certain signal, it would set off some kind of trap
summoning magical creatures eg Faithful Hound? It wouldn't need to be
nasty, just occupy attention so that the party doesn't find some way
to prepare for the dragon's return. It also wouldn't result in
interior damage.
James Hertsch
little bit of trickery?
OPTION I:
Acquire a highly valuable gem. Cast Trap the Soul on it, using the
second variant. This variant is triggered when the dragon accepts the
gem ... and it totally bypasses his SR and saving throws.
Additionally, you'll want to cast Nystul's Nondectable Aura on this
puppy so the dragon won't suspect.
Hand off the gem to your rogue, who (for convenience sake) has maxed
out his Disguise and Bluff skills. Rogue disguises himself as a
common peasant, citizen of a nearby town. Throw the valuable gem in
among a bunch of other valuables. Cast Nystul's Brilliant Aura on
several of them so that the dragon gets a bunch of confusing auras if
he attempts to detect magic. Rogue drives up, offering a wagon full
of goodies as tirbute for the dragon.
Dragon eventually finds enspelled gem, picks it up, and is sucked in.
Dragon defeated.
OPTION II
Assume a full-fledged archetype party.
The wizard should use Greater Planar Binding to whistle up a few
powerful outsiders. The outsiders are sent to create a stir somewhere
in the dragon's domain, drawing the creature out to investigate. The
rogue plants with the outsiders a forged map that purports to show the
location of the tower of the evil wizard who summoned these outsiders.
The spot should be outside the dragon's usual domain so that he
doesn't know the territory, preferably in the mountains somewhere. At
this point, we have quite a few options. Here's my suggestion: Equip
the party's rogue with a wondrous item that allows constant use of the
ventriloquism spell. Seed the terrain with illusions and various
annoying traps.
The rogue should call out multiple insults, taunting the dragon from
as many angles as possible, luring the dragon back and forth across
the terrain. Now, lure him into a spot where you've camouflaged a
very, very large weighted net held up by a reverse gravity spell.
Dispel the reverse gravity spell. This should drop the net on the
dragon.
While the dragon is trapped, hit him with everything you have.
Period.
This is a little more confrontational than option I.
Option III
Let's consider our friend the rogue for a moment. If he's smart, he's
going to have his Bluff skill maximized. Did you ever read Puss in
Boots? Puss in Boots defeated a shapechanging ogre by causing him to
shapeshift into a mouse ... and then eating the poor ogre.
Could a rogue do something similar? Taunt the dragon into assuming a
small, not very strong form. Then, get the dragon to follow you into
a confined space. Trap him with a Web spell and run; if the dragon
attempts to assume dragon form again, he's likely to take crushing
damage. If he stays in regular form he has to free himself slowly.
Option IV
If you're just after the dragon's treasure, use a forged map and a few
well-placed comments to lure him away. Head in with your followers
and cart the treasure out. Then, you might want to change your
identity when the dragon gets back...
Just a few ideas.
--JH
Justin Bacon
See the FRCS or the forthcoming EPIC LEVEL HANDBOOK. 26th level characters can
receive spell slots above 9th.
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Justin Bacon
>"Nockermensch" <nocker...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:4769522f.02041...@posting.google.com...
>
>> Your evil cleric creates a spectre. He can control it by sucessfully
>> rebuking it. Now, he sends the spectre against the first peasant
>> village they stuble upon. The spectre kills everybody there (without
>> any trouble) and for each dead creature there's another spectre in 1-4
>> rounds, *under control of the spectre the cleric is controling*.
>> That's a spectre army for you, guys. Let's say, for the sake of
>> brevity, that the cleric gets 40 spectres this way.
>
>First of all, it takes a standard action to give commands to each commanded
>undead creature (PHB p. 140).
Well, it takes a standard action to give a mental command. But specters have an
Intelligence of 14: They would understand spoken instructions and be able to
act on orders with their own initiative. Mobilizing the force might take some
time (under the most stringent of guidelines), but it can be done. (With 40
spectres it takes you 4 minutes under the most stringent interpretation of the
rules.)
>Second, any GM worth his weight in salt
>applies the HD limit for controlled undead, and disallows your pyramid
>scheme beyond the HD limit.
Make no mistake, however: This is a Rule 0.
>Alternatively, the GM rules that while the
>original Spectre is under your control and must do what you say, his spawn
>are under no such compulsion, and he has them attack you.
The spawn are commanded by the original Spectre. So you spend approximately 3
seconds (at any point in time) commanding your Spectre to prevent his Spawn
from attacking you. Problem solved.
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Justin Bacon
>The spectres have inteligence. Also, they understand language. Unless
>the DM isn't being fair (he shouldn't, as the players are trying to
>kill a dragon, and everybody knows this is impossible),
That's right: In a game about exploring dungeons and slaying dragons, it's
impossible to slay dragons.
...
<snigger>
Is it also impossible to explore dungeons in your version of D&D?
JB
Justin Bacon
>> Arandor wrote:
>>> Or are you suggesting using spells, when you're a mere 19th level
>>> caster on your own, versus two Hasted 20th level casters, both
>>> readied to counterspell after casting their spells?
>
>Justin Bacon <tria...@aol.com> wrote:
>> How do they ready a counterspell after casting their spells?
>
>Using their extra partial action from /haste/ to take a Ready action,
>perhaps?
Doh. Eyes apparently skipped right over the word "hasted" (capitalized, no
less).
Pardon me while I wipe this egg off my face.
JB
Justin Bacon
>"Doug Smith" <gtg...@prism.gatech.edu> wrote in message
>news:<a9potn$5h3$1...@news-int.gatech.edu>...
>> I know it's not this easy, but what is the Fortitude DC of a lvl 26
>Wizard's
>> Finger of Death spell? (The Wyrm's SR isn't an extremely factor, as the wiz
>> only needs to roll a 6 to affect the dragon)
>>
>> - Doug -
>
>It isn't dependant on level. The DC for a spell is 10+Int
>modifier+level of the spell.
OTOH, there are a couple of effects which are dependent on level which come
into factor here:
1. The wizard could have an Intelligence as high as 23 by 20th level (just from
an 18 base and standard ability increases). That's a +6 right there.
2. The wizard can Heighten that spell up to 9th level by 20th level. That's a
+9.
So that's 10+6+9 = 25.
The Gold Great Wyrm has a Fort of +33, so that isn't going to cut it.
But, following the guidelines in the FRCS, the wizard also 6 Epic Level
abilities. Playing around with those, we can accomplish something like this:
+1 Ability Increase = 24 Intelligence = +7 ability modifier
+5 Bonus Spell Levels = Heighten that spell to 12th level
So that gives us 10+7+14 = 31.
And that still doesn't do it. So it looks like the Great Wyrm is pretty close
to invulnerable (5% chance) when it comes to spells requiring a Fortitude save.
Of course, Finger of Death isn't what an actual party will be using. An actual
party will be using Harm (from the cleric) followed by Power Word Kill (from
the wizard). Buh-bye, dragon.
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Justin Bacon
>The dragon could trigger various items in his lair to go and blast
>away with Lightning Bolts, Fireballs, whichever element the dragon is
>immune to, and get them to activate (probably through command word)
>after the Mordenkainen's Disjunction. MD would remove any protections
>against such. Even if the objects don't even aim right, they're bound
>to hit something, and if they hit the dragon it doesn't matter, but if
>they hit the party it'll be another concentration check, and it'd make
>it even harder for the party to figure out what's going on. If the
>objects could be made to aim at the party in some way (blast at
>whatever the dragon is attacking?) it'd be nasty.
Definitely nasty. But in a world with Time Stop (assuming both parties have
it), the aggressor *always* wins. Always. As I mentioned elsewhere:
Scry, Maximized Time Stop, Teleport w/o Error, Harm (from a magic item), Magic
Missile, Teleport w/o Error.
The only prayer you have is that you notice the scry sensor. And even if you
do, you've only got one round to do something before the Time Stop goes off and
you're dead. (Plus, if the spellcaster is already familiar with the area he
knows you're in, the scry isn't necessary and you're completely helpless.)
The only possible defense is to permanently live inside an anti-magic shell of
some sort -- and that doesn't seem very likely.
...
Actually, though, you could use a Contingency spell to attempt an escape. For
example, you could have a Contingency which casts Teleport w/o Error to a
secondary lair if anyone under the effects of Time Stop is capable of seeing
you. But it would be a pretty open question whether this would take effect
while Time Stop is in effect.
And, even if it does, the wizard's scry is still in effect -- so he simply
makes another scry check to track you down. Casts another maximized Time Stop
spell with plenty of time to spare, and repeats. (It's a safe assumption that
the wizard has specialized his spell selection today for the specific purpose
of wiping the dragon out.)
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Anivair
>Magic
>Missile, Teleport w/o Error.
>
>The only prayer you have is that you notice the scry sensor. And even if you
>do, you've only got one round to do something before the Time Stop
Couple things.
One is that any dragon is going to know he's being scried on almost
immediately. And that most will have up spells to fool or stop scrying.
Another is that you can't cast time stop through a scry spell. Or at the very
least it's not on the list of spells that you can cast through scrying.
--
later,
~Anivair
Ani...@aol.com
Ben Sisson
IS his real name) conspiratorially whispered:
>Skadabra66 wrote:
>>The dragon could trigger various items in his lair to go and blast
>>away with Lightning Bolts, Fireballs, whichever element the dragon is
>>immune to, and get them to activate (probably through command word)
>>after the Mordenkainen's Disjunction. MD would remove any protections
>>against such. Even if the objects don't even aim right, they're bound
>>to hit something, and if they hit the dragon it doesn't matter, but if
>>they hit the party it'll be another concentration check, and it'd make
>>it even harder for the party to figure out what's going on. If the
>>objects could be made to aim at the party in some way (blast at
>>whatever the dragon is attacking?) it'd be nasty.
>
>Definitely nasty. But in a world with Time Stop (assuming both parties have
>it), the aggressor *always* wins. Always. As I mentioned elsewhere:
>
>Scry, Maximized Time Stop, Teleport w/o Error, Harm (from a magic item), Magic
>Missile, Teleport w/o Error.
>
>The only prayer you have is that you notice the scry sensor. And even if you
>do, you've only got one round to do something before the Time Stop goes off and
>you're dead. (Plus, if the spellcaster is already familiar with the area he
>knows you're in, the scry isn't necessary and you're completely helpless.)
>
>The only possible defense is to permanently live inside an anti-magic shell of
>some sort -- and that doesn't seem very likely.
Given your examples, I have a better defense - rule zero it out of
existance.
Sounds like too much an unbalancing bother. Any spell that the enemy
has to directly guard against or automatically lose should be on the
waste pile.
I haven't had a 3ed campaign where anyone has had Time Stop so I never
really looked at how unbalancing it seems to be.
--
Ben Sisson
Westley: "Give us the gate key."
Yellin: "I have no gate key."
Inigo: "Fezzik, tear his arms off."
Yellin: "Oh, you mean *this* gate key."
-The Princess Bride
GreatLich
"Justin Bacon" <tria...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020423021748...@mb-bj.aol.com...
> Skadabra66 wrote:
> >The dragon could trigger various items in his lair to go and blast
> >away with Lightning Bolts, Fireballs, whichever element the dragon is
> >immune to, and get them to activate (probably through command word)
> >after the Mordenkainen's Disjunction. MD would remove any protections
> >against such. Even if the objects don't even aim right, they're bound
> >to hit something, and if they hit the dragon it doesn't matter, but if
> >they hit the party it'll be another concentration check, and it'd make
> >it even harder for the party to figure out what's going on. If the
> >objects could be made to aim at the party in some way (blast at
> >whatever the dragon is attacking?) it'd be nasty.
>
> Definitely nasty. But in a world with Time Stop (assuming both parties
have
> it), the aggressor *always* wins. Always. As I mentioned elsewhere:
>
> Scry, Maximized Time Stop, Teleport w/o Error, Harm (from a magic item),
Magic
> Missile, Teleport w/o Error.
What good would this do? You teleport, hold a charge for Harm, lose that
charge because you attempt to cast magic missile (failing because you can't
select a target) and you teleport back again; and all this within 6 seconds.
Unless I miss something your strategy is useless.
>
> The only prayer you have is that you notice the scry sensor. And even if
you
> do, you've only got one round to do something before the Time Stop goes
off and
> you're dead. (Plus, if the spellcaster is already familiar with the area
he
> knows you're in, the scry isn't necessary and you're completely helpless.)
>
> The only possible defense is to permanently live inside an anti-magic
shell of
> some sort -- and that doesn't seem very likely.
>
You're wasting 7 spells just to pop in and out of the dragons lair; I don't
what you attempted to do to the dragon but at most you'll give him a
headache (depending on how many times you attempt this per day)
GreatLich
Malachias Invictus
news:<pfDw8.23$oC6....@news.abs.net>...
> > When the dragon does not even bother casting haste, yes.
>
> The dragon did cast Haste. Problem is, he didn't have it anymore after
> Mord's Disjunction...
...and, of course, it toyed with you a while. Why didn't the dragon cast
Mordenkainen's Disjunction?
--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
Andrew Tellez
Justin Bacon wrote:
>
> Nelmes, D. wrote:
> >How does one Maximize Timestop? I thought that you needed to use a spell slot
> >three levels higher to memorize a maximized spell?
>
> See the FRCS or the forthcoming EPIC LEVEL HANDBOOK. 26th level
> characters can receive spell slots above 9th.
Or make a Maximize Spell Rod (Tome and Blood) and do it at lower levels.
Arandor
> ...and, of course, it toyed with you a while. Why didn't the dragon
> cast Mordenkainen's Disjunction?
The Dragon was struggling for its life, since it made the one crucial
mistake of thinking it could outcast *two* *higher level*
spellcasters.
It did not cast Mord's Disjunction itself for three reasons:
* it did not know that spell because it had to have Time Stop and
Foresight, which already fills the two slots it knows
* it thought Greater Dispel Magic would be enough
* we beat its Initiative (easy to do, when you've got a +10 in total
from enhanced Dex, items, and what not)
After that simple fact, *we* were toying with *it*.
The game's called Dungeons & Dragons. That's not the case because the
party has to hide *in* dungeons *from* dragons. They can be defeated,
as written by the book. If you do not wish them to be defeated, don't
play 'em by the book.
Cheers,
Arandor
JDJarvis
so many people ignore the factors we have previously mentioned when
dealing with any powereful creature. Such powerful opponents shouldn't
just turn up on the other side of a nondescript door in a dungeon but
should be the focal point of entire adventures or even major portions
of a campaign.One thing i find curouis is so many people forget about
things like the battle of the five armies from the hobbit where
various factions can now take a shot at a dragon hoard without having
to deal with the dragon itself, taking the loot home from a dragon
lair could easily be an adventure in and of itself.
Fumblor
Contingency anti-magic aura with the condition that someone teleports into your
lair wouldn't be so bad. Except for that clause on the end that says that
any part of the creature sticking out of the area of effect is vulnerable.
Maybe if you just put it on the *front* part of the dragon.
As for disjunction:
I think one of the best defenses against a disjunction would be having
magical fields around that would react badly when dispelled. Walls of force
holding up parts of the ceiling. Walls of force illusioned to be the floor.
Of course, one of the best reasons to not use that spell against a dragon
is at best, you'll ruin any magical treasure you might find in his horde.
At worst you dispel an artifact and possibly lose spellcasting forever.
--
Fumblor
Doug Lampert
> >Scry, Maximized Time Stop, Teleport w/o Error, Harm (from a magic item),
> >Magic
> >Missile, Teleport w/o Error.
> >
> >The only prayer you have is that you notice the scry sensor. And even if you
> >do, you've only got one round to do something before the Time Stop
>
> Couple things.
>
> One is that any dragon is going to know he's being scried on almost
> immediately. And that most will have up spells to fool or stop scrying.
Yeh, Scry is fairly low level, it should be beatable, and there are several
spells that work against it, of course the Dragon only has a fairly limited
collection of spells, he may still not have any way to beat it. The limited
spell selection seems more and more crippling to high level sorcerers the more
I play and GM this game.
OTOH any sane Dragon will take nothing but enhancement, defense, and divination
spells, the last thing he needs is extra attack power against most foes.
> Another is that you can't cast time stop through a scry spell. Or at the very
> least it's not on the list of spells that you can cast through scrying.
Time Stop is personal, it gives YOU extra rounds of action by speeding you up
to where the rest of the world seems to have had time stop.
You cast it on yourself and then teleport.
DougL
Justin Bacon
>Another is that you can't cast time stop through a scry spell. Or at the very
>least it's not on the list of spells that you can cast through scrying.
You cast Time Stop on *yourself*, Anivair. The only reason you're doing the
scry is so that you know where to teleport to.
JB
Justin Bacon
>Sounds like too much an unbalancing bother. Any spell that the enemy
>has to directly guard against or automatically lose should be on the
>waste pile.
>
>I haven't had a 3ed campaign where anyone has had Time Stop so I never
>really looked at how unbalancing it seems to be.
Well, Time Stop adds to the deadliness, but its the Harm/Power Word Kill combo
that's really nasty. (Although, actually, Harm and Magic Missile is equally
deadly.) That's a one round, automatic knock-out (assuming you penetrate the SR
-- which, as noted, at 26th level is trivial). (Okay, there's also a 5% chance
the cleric will roll a 1 on his touch attack.)
JB
Justin Bacon
>
>What good would this do? You teleport, hold a charge for Harm, lose that
>charge because you attempt to cast magic missile (failing because you can't
>select a target) and you teleport back again; and all this within 6 seconds.
>Unless I miss something your strategy is useless.
What about Time Stop prevents you from selecting a target for magic missile? Or
using a magic item? PHB, pg. 265:
"...however, you can create spell effects and leave them to take effect when
the time stop ends."
JB
Peter Meilinger
: Ben Sisson wrote:
:>Sounds like too much an unbalancing bother. Any spell that the enemy
:>has to directly guard against or automatically lose should be on the
:>waste pile.
:>
:>I haven't had a 3ed campaign where anyone has had Time Stop so I never
:>really looked at how unbalancing it seems to be.
: Well, Time Stop adds to the deadliness, but its the Harm/Power Word Kill
: combo that's really nasty. (Although, actually, Harm and Magic Missile is
: equally deadly.)
Do Jewels of Shielding, or whatever they're called, still exist
in 3rd Edition? If so, I'd say you're a lot safer going for PW:K
over MM.
Pete
Malachias Invictus
Taking that sentence off would do *so* much to make that spell less of an
abuse-magnet...