The virtues of the Orc Double Axe...
Werebat
lately. When I first started playing 3E, I thought the double-bladed
sword was a lame takeoff on Darth Maul (although I'm not sure if the game
predates the movie), and didn't think much more of them. Then I noticed
that 3E seemed to make a real effort to equalize the values of most
weapons, and I took another look -- although I admit I still think the
Orc Double Axe is cooler.
On the face of it, it looks like you spent a feat in order to be able to
weild a weapon that basically adds one point of damage (on average) to
your secondary attacks when using Two-Weapon Fighting. Not as good as
Weapon Specialization, but then again it's available to non-fighters.
I suspect this is the reason why many people consider double weapons to
be crappy exotics. The Bastard Sword adds a point of damage on average
to all of your PRIMARY attacks, and the Spiked Chain, well... let's not
go there.
There are some hidden benefits to the double weapons, though. I'm not
saying they're the ultimate power weapons, but I do think that the
thinking warrior can do a lot with them.
Consider:
1. Weapon Focus and Specialization with them works for both main-hand AND
off-hand attacks. The only way to keep the low -2 penalties for TWF and
do this with non-double weapons is to stick to paired smallish weapons,
for example two short swords or two hand axes. These weapons do 1 point
of damage less per primary AND secondary attack when compared to double
weapons.
2. They're versatile because they can be used as two-handed weapons as
well as main-hand/off-hand weapons. This is important when you can't
perform a full attack action (for example, when you have to move 10 feet
to close with a foe). You'll only get one attack... The fellow with the
battleaxe/handaxe combo will hack once with the battleaxe for
1d8+Strbonus damage, while the one with the Orc Double Axe will do the
same but also gain the benefits of 1.5 Strbonus if he's smart and uses
it as a two-handed weapon for the round. I think this happens fairly
often in most games, so it's worth considering.
In a pinch, when you realize you are fighting a heavily-armored or in
other ways hard to hit enemy, you can use this to bump up your chances of
hitting as well. Yes, the Orc Double Axe does less damage than the
Greataxe, but again, it's more versatile -- you can use it with TWF when
fighting a lower-AC enemy.
3. Exotic Weapon Master in Complete Warrior brings up the Flurry of
Strikes ability, that allows the weilder of an exotic double weapon to
weild it two-handed and get one extra attack with it, while suffering a
-2 penalty to hit with all attacks for the round. I don't think there is
another way in the game to basically get TWF with a two-handed weapon.
Interesting trick (although I'm no number monkey, and will rely on the
residents here for statistics on its usefulness).
Well... Those are three things. In general, it seems to me that the
charm of double weapons really lies in their versatility... They make
better two-handed weapons than medium/small weapon TWF combos (and
they're marginally better at TWF as well), and they make better TWF
combos than other two-handed weapons.
Any thoughts?
- Ron ^*^
Nockermensch
Paired light weapons are even shittier now because you can't power
attack with them.
> 2. They're versatile because they can be used as two-handed weapons as
> well as main-hand/off-hand weapons. This is important when you can't
> perform a full attack action (for example, when you have to move 10 feet
> to close with a foe). You'll only get one attack... The fellow with the
> battleaxe/handaxe combo will hack once with the battleaxe for
> 1d8+Strbonus damage, while the one with the Orc Double Axe will do the
> same but also gain the benefits of 1.5 Strbonus if he's smart and uses
> it as a two-handed weapon for the round. I think this happens fairly
> often in most games, so it's worth considering.
> In a pinch, when you realize you are fighting a heavily-armored or in
> other ways hard to hit enemy, you can use this to bump up your chances of
> hitting as well. Yes, the Orc Double Axe does less damage than the
> Greataxe, but again, it's more versatile -- you can use it with TWF when
> fighting a lower-AC enemy.
Or hordes of mooks, improving your chances to [great] cleave.
> 3. Exotic Weapon Master in Complete Warrior brings up the Flurry of
> Strikes ability, that allows the weilder of an exotic double weapon to
> weild it two-handed and get one extra attack with it, while suffering a
> -2 penalty to hit with all attacks for the round. I don't think there is
> another way in the game to basically get TWF with a two-handed weapon.
> Interesting trick (although I'm no number monkey, and will rely on the
> residents here for statistics on its usefulness).
So it's three primary attacks at -4. Looks like a monk to me. :-)
> Well... Those are three things. In general, it seems to me that the
> charm of double weapons really lies in their versatility... They make
> better two-handed weapons than medium/small weapon TWF combos (and
> they're marginally better at TWF as well), and they make better TWF
> combos than other two-handed weapons.
>
> Any thoughts?
Their LACK of CHARM, however, lies on their shitty look. I mean,
double axes look like elaborate suicide devices. It's also hard to
picture wielding a double axe as a two handed weapon. Dire maces and
double swords at least look more sensible.
Another shitty bit is the feat investment needed to keep two weapon
fighting fun (you have to pay one feat for each extra attack you
want), but I'm sure that you can build pretty scary fighter builds
based on a double weapon (with exotic weapon master added later for
extra scaryness).
--
@ @ Nockermensch, in any case, I'd get 8 fighter levels for greater
weapon focus before going for another class.
JB
> Consider:
>
> 1. Weapon Focus and Specialization with them works for both main-hand
AND
> off-hand attacks. The only way to keep the low -2 penalties for TWF
and
> do this with non-double weapons is to stick to paired smallish
weapons,
> for example two short swords or two hand axes. These weapons do 1
point
> of damage less per primary AND secondary attack when compared to
double
> weapons.
True but if you're the nimble quick fighting type you can't 'finesse' a
double weapon like you can with the genuine light weapon combos.
> 2. They're versatile because they can be used as two-handed weapons as
> well as main-hand/off-hand weapons. This is important when you can't
> perform a full attack action (for example, when you have to move 10
feet
> to close with a foe). You'll only get one attack... The fellow with
the
> battleaxe/handaxe combo will hack once with the battleaxe for
> 1d8+Strbonus damage, while the one with the Orc Double Axe will do the
> same but also gain the benefits of 1.5 Strbonus if he's smart and uses
> it as a two-handed weapon for the round. I think this happens fairly
> often in most games, so it's worth considering.
> In a pinch, when you realize you are fighting a heavily-armored or in
> other ways hard to hit enemy, you can use this to bump up your chances
of
> hitting as well. Yes, the Orc Double Axe does less damage than the
> Greataxe, but again, it's more versatile -- you can use it with TWF
when
> fighting a lower-AC enemy.
Hmm. Unless the AC is low enough, often enough, or you have bonus damage
dice the TWF isn't really going to be worth it. Strong multiclass
Barbarian/Rogues, for example, may benefit from this flexibility.
> 3. Exotic Weapon Master in Complete Warrior brings up the Flurry of
> Strikes ability, that allows the weilder of an exotic double weapon to
> weild it two-handed and get one extra attack with it, while suffering
a
> -2 penalty to hit with all attacks for the round. I don't think there
is
> another way in the game to basically get TWF with a two-handed weapon.
> Interesting trick (although I'm no number monkey, and will rely on the
> residents here for statistics on its usefulness).
If you get the normal 1.5X damage adjustment for two handed combat then
I hope this is a *high* level ability (by which time TWF users will have
more than one bonus attack). This sounds suspiciously munckin like to
me.
Werebat
> > 3. Exotic Weapon Master in Complete Warrior brings up the Flurry of
> > Strikes ability, that allows the weilder of an exotic double weapon to
> > weild it two-handed and get one extra attack with it, while suffering
> a
> > -2 penalty to hit with all attacks for the round. I don't think there
> is
> > another way in the game to basically get TWF with a two-handed weapon.
> > Interesting trick (although I'm no number monkey, and will rely on the
> > residents here for statistics on its usefulness).
>
> If you get the normal 1.5X damage adjustment for two handed combat then
> I hope this is a *high* level ability (by which time TWF users will have
> more than one bonus attack). This sounds suspiciously munckin like to
> me.
One *could* get it by seventh level.
- Ron ^*^
Bryan J. Maloney
> Any thoughts?
Double weapnz sux0rz. Quadruple wepnz rulz!
JB
So you get an extra attack with a two handed weapon every round (at full
bab?) by 7th level, in return you get a -2 penalty to attacks in that
round. That's out...fucking...rageous. Could you post the full thing so
I can see the details then I'll run the numbers?
Mouse
>"Werebat" <rpoi...@cox.net> wrote in message
>news:400553...@cox.net...
>> JB wrote:
>> >
>> > "Werebat" <rpoi...@cox.net> wrote in message
>>
>> > > 3. Exotic Weapon Master in Complete Warrior brings up the Flurry
>of
>> > > Strikes ability, that allows the weilder of an exotic double
>weapon to
>> > > weild it two-handed and get one extra attack with it, while
>suffering
>> > a
>> > > -2 penalty to hit with all attacks for the round. I don't think
<snip>
>So you get an extra attack with a two handed weapon every round (at full
>bab?) by 7th level, in return you get a -2 penalty to attacks in that
>round. That's out...fucking...rageous. Could you post the full thing so
>I can see the details then I'll run the numbers?
Prereqs are BAB +6, Craft (Weaponsmithing) 3 ranks, Exotic Weapon Prof
(any), and Weapon Focus (any exotic).
Easy to get by 6th.
Werebat
>
> On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 13:33:49 -0000, "JB" wrote:
>
> >"Werebat" <rpoi...@cox.net> wrote in message
> >news:400553...@cox.net..
> >> >
> >> > "Werebat" <rpoi...@cox.net> wrote in message
> >>
> >> > > 3. Exotic Weapon Master in Complete Warrior brings up the Flurry
> >of
> >> > > Strikes ability, that allows the weilder of an exotic double
> >weapon to
> >> > > weild it two-handed and get one extra attack with it, while
> >suffering
> >> > a
> >> > > -2 penalty to hit with all attacks for the round. I don't think
>
> <snip>
>
> >So you get an extra attack with a two handed weapon every round (at full
> >bab?) by 7th level, in return you get a -2 penalty to attacks in that
> >round. That's out...fucking...rageous. Could you post the full thing so
> >I can see the details then I'll run the numbers?
>
> Prereqs are BAB +6, Craft (Weaponsmithing) 3 ranks, Exotic Weapon Prof
> (any), and Weapon Focus (any exotic).
>
> Easy to get by 6th.
It *only* works with exotic double weapons or the spiked chain, though.
Won't work with a bastard sword, for example.
Make the Orc Double Axe a little tastier?
- Ron ^*^
JB
re Flurry of Strikes
> It *only* works with exotic double weapons or the spiked chain,
though.
> Won't work with a bastard sword, for example.
>
> Make the Orc Double Axe a little tastier?
It makes double weapons the best damage dealing option for full attacks.
At 8th level assuming all stats are equal and STR is 18 compare a GS
wielder and a FoS ODA wielder (awarding Greater Weapon Focus to make up
for the Exotic Weapon Proficiency) and giving both a +2 weapon.
For the ACs they will typically face at that level the DA user will do
an average of 4-9 points more damage per full attack round than the GS
user (including criticals). This difference will increase with Str and
Weapon enchantment increases etc.
Werebat
WOOT! Looks like my character concept KICKS A$$!!! With the addition of
a level of Exotic Weapon Master, of course.
- Ron ^*^
JB
Bollocks. Forgot the -2 penalty. That balances it out somewhat. The
advantage would be with the Double Weapon user for ACs of less than 26.
This AC would increase with the variables mentioned before (and level of
course)
That's not quite as bad as I thought it would be but you'll still be
better against most opponents you'll encounter at that level.
Werebat
> > JB wrote:
> > >
> > > "Werebat" <rpoi...@cox.net> wrote in message
> > > news:400638...@cox.net.
> > >
*Sigh*... My character concept sucks... I drift in a sea of
depression...
- Ron. I guess. Or whatever.
JB
> JB wrote:
> > Bollocks. Forgot the -2 penalty. That balances it out somewhat. The
> > advantage would be with the Double Weapon user for ACs of less than
26.
> > This AC would increase with the variables mentioned before (and
level of
> > course)
> >
> > That's not quite as bad as I thought it would be but you'll still be
> > better against most opponents you'll encounter at that level.
>
> *Sigh*... My character concept sucks... I drift in a sea of
> depression...
No it's still good. You've overtaken the previous best damage potential
character for any foe you're likely to meet. The difference at higher
ACs may be trivial but if you're fighting, say, Gorgons (CR8, AC 20)
you'll be doing 4 more damage per round. That's 15% more than the GS
wielder and a fairly typical AC for the challenge rating.
Besides which there is no reason the DA wielder can't have WF too and
you're cutting the GS users choices to match right down.
You can return to rejoicing in munchkin heaven.
Werebat
Really?
Since Flurry of Strikes doesn't seem possible to use... Hmm. I'll have
to look into this.
But my first thoughts are that you can make a much more ass-kickinger
character using the spiked chain as a two-handed weapon and the flurry of
strikes ability with Exotic Weapons Master (plus the special bonus to
trip attacks with an additional level of Exotic Weapons Master).
- Ron ^*^
The Predaphile
> But my first thoughts are that you can make a much more ass-kickinger
> character using the spiked chain as a two-handed weapon and the flurry of
> strikes ability with Exotic Weapons Master (plus the special bonus to
> trip attacks with an additional level of Exotic Weapons Master).
Sorry folks, I know this is off-topic as all hell, but, hey, Ron!
Long time, no see. You were one of my favorite posters on this
newgroup back when I was a regular. Just thought I'd ask how you were
doing.
(And seriously, was the 4th Edition thread your doing?) :-)
--
The Predaphile
D&D 3.5 Resources:
http://www.geocities.com/predaphile/dnd3.html
"Equilibrium is no longer the goal.
The scales must be destroyed."
-- H. Miller
Werebat
>
> Werebat wrote:
>
> > But my first thoughts are that you can make a much more ass-kickinger
> > character using the spiked chain as a two-handed weapon and the flurry of
> > strikes ability with Exotic Weapons Master (plus the special bonus to
> > trip attacks with an additional level of Exotic Weapons Master).
>
> Sorry folks, I know this is off-topic as all hell, but, hey, Ron!
> Long time, no see. You were one of my favorite posters on this
> newgroup back when I was a regular. Just thought I'd ask how you were
> doing.
Hey Predaphile. You know, I've always *wondered* about your handle...
Things are going much better now that I've spoken to my lawyer. An
inside tip -- try to avoid having a child with a woman who you will end
up divorcing, and who will end up on Welfare due to mental illness.
It's not a good idea.
My son is doing great, though, and things are going quite well for my GF
and I (I moved into her house about a month ago). She's fantastic with
the little guy (I have him half the time) and I couldn't ask for better.
Also, she likes watching old Thundarr the Barbarian cartoons. :^)
Hmm... There's more, but overall the tone of my life is "upbeat". I've
been to Japan and France in the last two years, and in the near future I
plan to travel to Arizona, New Orleans (for a second time at the Jazz
Festival), Hawaii, and somewhere else I haven't decided on.
Hope all is well with you!
- Ron ^*^
Pope Jubal
> JB wrote:
> >
> > "Werebat" <rpoi...@cox.net> wrote in message
> > news:40069F...@cox.net..
> > > JB wrote:
>
> > > > Bollocks. Forgot the -2 penalty. That balances it out somewhat. The
> > > > advantage would be with the Double Weapon user for ACs of less than
> 26.
> > > > This AC would increase with the variables mentioned before (and
> level of
> > > > course)
> > > >
> > > > That's not quite as bad as I thought it would be but you'll still be
> > > > better against most opponents you'll encounter at that level.
> > >
> > > *Sigh*... My character concept sucks... I drift in a sea of
> > > depression...
> >
> > No it's still good. You've overtaken the previous best damage potential
> > character for any foe you're likely to meet. The difference at higher
> > ACs may be trivial but if you're fighting, say, Gorgons (CR8, AC 20)
> > you'll be doing 4 more damage per round. That's 15% more than the GS
> > wielder and a fairly typical AC for the challenge rating.
That's a pretty damn big difference. Wouldn't the extra few feats
that you have to spend on this chain make up at least some of the
difference if you had spent them elsewhere, though? In particular,
I'm thinking of Improved Sunder and Improved Disarm since the
alternative is probably a greatsword.
> But my first thoughts are that you can make a much more ass-kickinger
> character using the spiked chain as a two-handed weapon and the flurry of
> strikes ability with Exotic Weapons Master (plus the special bonus to
> trip attacks with an additional level of Exotic Weapons Master).
This would be a very good fighter with a lot of options to disable the
opponent, but for straightforward damage output, Spiked Chain kind of
sucks unless you have something to add damage to each attack
(flaming/frost, sneak attack, etc) or if you know that you're going to
be wading through a sea of Kobolds and have Whirlwind Attack or Great
Cleave.
> - Ron ^*^
Pope Jubal
Jubal no Oni
Dark Oracle of Jell-O
---
Christopher Adams
>
> Hmm... There's more, but overall the tone of my life is "upbeat". I've
> been to Japan and France in the last two years, and in the near future I
> plan to travel to Arizona, New Orleans (for a second time at the Jazz
> Festival), Hawaii, and somewhere else I haven't decided on.
Sydney, mate. I reckon a few of us here could show you a good time - and admit
it, you've always wanted to meet Hong.
--
Christopher Adams - SUTEKH Functions Officer 2003
Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'entrante.
JB
"Pope Jubal" <mike_...@ghrsystems.com> wrote in message
news:aa5062a5.04011...@posting.google.com...
There aren't any really though, except for the initial Exotic Weapon
Proficiency. According to Mouse the preq feats are Exotic WP and Weapon
Focus and a GS user who didn't take WF is a god damned idiot.
Werebat
>
> Werebat wrote:
> >
> > Hmm... There's more, but overall the tone of my life is "upbeat". I've
> > been to Japan and France in the last two years, and in the near future I
> > plan to travel to Arizona, New Orleans (for a second time at the Jazz
> > Festival), Hawaii, and somewhere else I haven't decided on.
>
> Sydney, mate. I reckon a few of us here could show you a good time - and admit
> it, you've always wanted to meet Hong.
Ooh, we *definitely* want to hit Australia at some point. I love
deserts.
- Ron ^*^
Jim Davies
>
>Their LACK of CHARM, however, lies on their shitty look. I mean,
>double axes look like elaborate suicide devices. It's also hard to
>picture wielding a double axe as a two handed weapon. Dire maces and
>double swords at least look more sensible.
The urgrosh looks like a perfectly plausible weapon. Of course it
doesn't do as much damage as the double sword or double axe, but you
wouldn't feel stupid using it.
What's a dire mace? It sounds pretty stupid...
--
Jim Davies
----------
No, not that one.
Jim Davies
>
>At 8th level assuming all stats are equal and STR is 18 compare a GS
>wielder and a FoS ODA wielder (awarding Greater Weapon Focus to make up
>for the Exotic Weapon Proficiency) and giving both a +2 weapon.
Except that a +2 greatsword costs 8000, and a +2 ODA costs 8000 per
end. So it's perhaps not a fair comparison, assuming I understand the
FoS rules.
What does a +2 main end and a masterwork 2nd end do the the result?
Wolfie
>deserts.
>
> - Ron ^*^
Deserts? I find desserts to be more satisfactory.
The Predaphile
> Hey Predaphile. You know, I've always *wondered* about your handle...
Hide your cats and dogs, and make sure the lion exhibit is locked up
tight...
> Things are going much better now that I've spoken to my lawyer. An
> inside tip -- try to avoid having a child with a woman who you will end
> up divorcing, and who will end up on Welfare due to mental illness.
> It's not a good idea.
Poor you. :-(
My own separation was very amicable, and my ex and I are on great
terms. But even still, divorce isn't something I ever want to go
through with, again. I got off light compared to you and lots of
others...
> My son is doing great, though, and things are going quite well for my GF
> and I (I moved into her house about a month ago). She's fantastic with
> the little guy (I have him half the time) and I couldn't ask for better.
Great, I'm happy for you, Ron.
> Also, she likes watching old Thundarr the Barbarian cartoons. :^)
Hell yeah! :-)
> Hmm... There's more, but overall the tone of my life is "upbeat". I've
> been to Japan and France in the last two years, and in the near future I
> plan to travel to Arizona, New Orleans (for a second time at the Jazz
> Festival), Hawaii, and somewhere else I haven't decided on.
I'm only a little more than two hours from New Orleans. If coming
from Arizona (where I was born, BTW), stop by Biloxi, MS on your way
to Nawlinz. I'll cook you guys some of my homemade spaghetti, made
from scratch. :-)
> Hope all is well with you!
Overall, it is. Life is good for me, I really can't complain.
Hong Ooi
It's a mace that's twice as badass as Mace Windu, badass Jedi.
--
Hong Ooi | "Why do you stalk me?"
ho...@zipworld.com.au | -- BJM
http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/ |
Sydney, Australia |
Nockermensch
> On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 21:11:24 +0000, Jim Davies
> <j...@aaargh.NoBleedinSpam.org> wrote:
>
> >nocker...@hotmail.com (Nockermensch) typed:
> >>
> >>Their LACK of CHARM, however, lies on their shitty look. I mean,
> >>double axes look like elaborate suicide devices. It's also hard to
> >>picture wielding a double axe as a two handed weapon. Dire maces and
> >>double swords at least look more sensible.
> >
> >The urgrosh looks like a perfectly plausible weapon. Of course it
> >doesn't do as much damage as the double sword or double axe, but you
> >wouldn't feel stupid using it.
> >
> >What's a dire mace? It sounds pretty stupid...
It's a dire flail sans chains. Or a quarterstaff with nastier ends.
> It's a mace that's twice as badass as Mace Windu, badass Jedi.
"This is your father's lightsaber. When you absolutely, positively,
have to kill every motherfuckin' stormtrooper in the room... accept no
substitutes."
Well, he doesn't actually say it, but at least you can hope.
--
@ @ Nocker "Feel the Force, motherfucker" mensch.
Quentin Stephens
> The discussions on double weapons here have piqued my curiosity
> a bit lately.
<snip>
Personally I'd go for a pair of shortswords. One thing I seldom see
is thought about the space things like Spiked Chain and the Orcish
Double Axe need. You can forget about fighting alongside anybody -
or even anywhere near anyone with the spiked chain.
Go for the shortsword and you can take all your feats with it, use
one and a shield when fighting alongside your mates and pull the
other one and let rip when you don't need to - and still have the
medium shield slung over your back.
Werebat
>
> Werebat:
>
> > Hey Predaphile. You know, I've always *wondered* about your handle...
>
> Hide your cats and dogs, and make sure the lion exhibit is locked up
> tight...
>
> > Things are going much better now that I've spoken to my lawyer. An
> > inside tip -- try to avoid having a child with a woman who you will end
> > up divorcing, and who will end up on Welfare due to mental illness.
> > It's not a good idea.
>
> Poor you. :-(
Eh. By the looks of things, she's going to be hit worse by this latest
court case than I will be. We'll see.
> > Hmm... There's more, but overall the tone of my life is "upbeat". I've
> > been to Japan and France in the last two years, and in the near future I
> > plan to travel to Arizona, New Orleans (for a second time at the Jazz
> > Festival), Hawaii, and somewhere else I haven't decided on.
>
> I'm only a little more than two hours from New Orleans. If coming
> from Arizona (where I was born, BTW), stop by Biloxi, MS on your way
> to Nawlinz. I'll cook you guys some of my homemade spaghetti, made
> from scratch. :-)
Ah, well, we're flying directly to New Orleans for the Jazz Festival, and
later this summer we are making another trip to Arizona directly. Don't
think we'll be making it to Biloxi, but thanks for the offer! We both
travel fairly often and you never know...
- Ron ^*^
Werebat
Bah. A few levels of Dervish and you've got yourself two scimitars.
I have to say the Orc Double Axe is disappointing in that it's supposed
to be used by ORCS, who are mostly barbarian in nature. It's not a
sensible weapon for barbarians to use, except maybe barbarian/rogues, and
even then...
- Ron ^*^
JB
You're right but it depends on how the ability works. Do you only use
the primary end in a flurry of strikes? If so you need only enchant one end.
Werebat
You can choose either end.
Still, you can use Spiked Chain with Flurry of Strikes, and it's
generally the better choice.
- Ron ^*^
JB
> JB wrote:
>
>>Jim Davies wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"JB" <JB...@talk21.com> typed:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>At 8th level assuming all stats are equal and STR is 18 compare a GS
>>>>wielder and a FoS ODA wielder (awarding Greater Weapon Focus to make up
>>>>for the Exotic Weapon Proficiency) and giving both a +2 weapon.
>>>
>>>
>>>Except that a +2 greatsword costs 8000, and a +2 ODA costs 8000 per
>>>end. So it's perhaps not a fair comparison, assuming I understand the
>>>FoS rules.
>>>
>>>What does a +2 main end and a masterwork 2nd end do the the result?
>>
>>You're right but it depends on how the ability works. Do you only use
>>the primary end in a flurry of strikes? If so you need only enchant one end.
>
>
> You can choose either end.
OK Good
> Still, you can use Spiked Chain with Flurry of Strikes, and it's
> generally the better choice.
Spiked chain should be banned.
/ Hong
Werebat
> Spiked chain should be banned.
Why? Too powerful?
- Ron ^*^
JB
> JB wrote:
>
> > Spiked chain should be banned.
>
> Why? Too powerful?
It's a stupid idea badly executed and among other reasons to hate it is
the complete lack of justification for applying Weapon Finesse.
The Repeating Crossbow should be banned too.
Werebat
> >
> > > Spiked chain should be banned.
> >
> > Why? Too powerful?
>
> It's a stupid idea badly executed and among other reasons to hate it is
> the complete lack of justification for applying Weapon Finesse.
>
> The Repeating Crossbow should be banned too.
You're just jealous 'cause YOU aren't cool enough to have one!
Seriously, it *does* seem overpowered compared to some other X-Waeapons.
Even after they dumbed it down a bit in 3.5.
- Ron ^*^
JB
> JB wrote:
> >
> > "Werebat" <rpoi...@cox.net> wrote in message
> > news:400B59...@cox.net..
> > > JB wrote:
> > >
> > > > Spiked chain should be banned.
> > >
> > > Why? Too powerful?
> >
> > It's a stupid idea badly executed and among other reasons to hate it
is
> > the complete lack of justification for applying Weapon Finesse.
> >
> > The Repeating Crossbow should be banned too.
>
> You're just jealous 'cause YOU aren't cool enough to have one!
I assure you, oh poster from the future, that I'M COOL ENOUGH TO HAVE
ANY WEAPON I WANT.
> Seriously, it *does* seem overpowered compared to some other
X-Waeapons.
> Even after they dumbed it down a bit in 3.5.
Well for one thing it's a reach weapon that you can burn all your feats
on because you can still use it against adjacent foes.
If you're strong you can deal good damage and Trip or Disarm opponents
before they close more easily than most others. If OTOH you are a sneaky
Rogue type you can use it with extreme efficiency (WFi) to deal sneak
damage.
The only thing you "sacrifice" is a slightly lower base damage dice than
other 2H weapons. I don't know why the design teams took a bunch of
utterly crap weapons and loaded them up with special abilities or
completely unreasonable power (Repeating Crossbow) unless it was a nod
towards cartooney style movie action.
Werebat
> > > >
> > > > > Spiked chain should be banned.
> > > >
> > > > Why? Too powerful?
> > >
> > > It's a stupid idea badly executed and among other reasons to hate it
> is
> > > the complete lack of justification for applying Weapon Finesse.
> > >
> > > The Repeating Crossbow should be banned too.
> >
> > You're just jealous 'cause YOU aren't cool enough to have one!
>
> I assure you, oh poster from the future, that I'M COOL ENOUGH TO HAVE
> ANY WEAPON I WANT.
>
> > Seriously, it *does* seem overpowered compared to some other
> X-Waeapons.
> > Even after they dumbed it down a bit in 3.5.
>
> Well for one thing it's a reach weapon that you can burn all your feats
> on because you can still use it against adjacent foes.
>
> If you're strong you can deal good damage and Trip or Disarm opponents
> before they close more easily than most others. If OTOH you are a sneaky
> Rogue type you can use it with extreme efficiency (WFi) to deal sneak
> damage.
>
> The only thing you "sacrifice" is a slightly lower base damage dice than
> other 2H weapons. I don't know why the design teams took a bunch of
> utterly crap weapons and loaded them up with special abilities or
> completely unreasonable power (Repeating Crossbow) unless it was a nod
> towards cartooney style movie action.
What do you think would be a REASONABLE set of stats for the spiked
chain?
- Ron ^*^
JB
> JB wrote:
> > > Seriously, it *does* seem overpowered compared to some other
> > X-Waeapons.
> > > Even after they dumbed it down a bit in 3.5.
> >
> > Well for one thing it's a reach weapon that you can burn all your
feats
> > on because you can still use it against adjacent foes.
> >
> > If you're strong you can deal good damage and Trip or Disarm
opponents
> > before they close more easily than most others. If OTOH you are a
sneaky
> > Rogue type you can use it with extreme efficiency (WFi) to deal
sneak
> > damage.
> >
> > The only thing you "sacrifice" is a slightly lower base damage dice
than
> > other 2H weapons. I don't know why the design teams took a bunch of
> > utterly crap weapons and loaded them up with special abilities or
> > completely unreasonable power (Repeating Crossbow) unless it was a
nod
> > towards cartooney style movie action.
>
> What do you think would be a REASONABLE set of stats for the spiked
> chain?
Start by moving it from the weapons table to the equipment table.
Chain, Spiked (10ft) 35gp 2lb
Chain, Spiked: As normal chain but slightly deters would be thieves for
a couple of seconds.
Nockermensch
My friend, the number cruncer SeRiAl (be AFRAID, people of rgfd, for
SeRiAl lurks here!!!) first said that the spiked chain should have
base damage 1d4.
Then he remembered that it's not the base damage that matters, but
what comes after the plus sign, and then he banned the weapon of his
game.
--
@ @ Nockermensch, tsk tsk tsk... banning is the EASY WAY OUT, I tell
you!!!
Michael Scott Brown
> JB wrote:
> > Spiked chain should be banned.
>
> Why? Too powerful?
You're talking about a !#$#$ *chain* hitting harder and deadlier than a
longsword, at reach distance, and with two-handed-weapon strength bonuses,
no less. This weapon is absurd as implemented. The effort it would take
to get over five feet of prickly chain moving with enough velocity such
that a strike from part of it would have more striking power than a sword
is enormous.
-Michael
Michael Scott Brown
> What do you think would be a REASONABLE set of stats for the spiked
> chain?
d4 damage, requires two hands but only does 1x strength. Bonus to trip
and disarm, variable reach. As full-round action, can set the chain
whipping around and make one attack at reach for 2d4 damage, or can use as
a double weapon without reach for 1d4/1d4. These override multiple attacks
from BAB, as the chain has to be 'rebooted' after attempting to strike in
these fashions.
-Michael
Mouse
and proclaimed:
>"This is your father's lightsaber. When you absolutely, positively,
>have to kill every motherfuckin' stormtrooper in the room... accept no
>substitutes."
"Which one's my lightsaber? It's the one that says 'Bad MothaFucka'
on it."
Wolfie
>longsword, at reach distance, and with two-handed-weapon strength bonuses,
>no less. This weapon is absurd as implemented. The effort it would take
>to get over five feet of prickly chain moving with enough velocity such
>that a strike from part of it would have more striking power than a sword
>is enormous.
>
>-Michael
>
Chains are extemely leathal. Not only have I a met a martial artist who could
use a chain to knock over a 400 pound target he also accidently slashed through
the fake leather cover over it with a "normal" chain. No spikes or razors on
the thing just a chain.
Also concider a "long sword" is 4 pounds and a spiked chain is listed as 10
pounds. Not to mention the far greater leverage you can get with the chain. It
would be EASIER to generate momentum and damage with the chain expecially if it
was flanged or spiked.
Chains arn't aloud in schools or government buildings for a reason.
Tetsubo
At least the Repeating Crossbow us passingly based on reality...
--
Tetsubo
My page: http://home.comcast.net/~tetsubo/
--------------------------------------
If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
-- Anatole France
JB
"Tetsubo" <tet...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:400C6DE1...@comcast.net...
> JB wrote:
>
> > "Werebat" <rpoi...@cox.net> wrote in message
> > news:400B59...@cox.net...
> > > JB wrote:
> > >
> > > > Spiked chain should be banned.
> > >
> > > Why? Too powerful?
> >
> > It's a stupid idea badly executed and among other reasons to hate it
is
> > the complete lack of justification for applying Weapon Finesse.
> >
> > The Repeating Crossbow should be banned too.
>
> At least the Repeating Crossbow us passingly based on reality...
It's the power of it that pisses me off. Suddenly you can harness all
the power of a heavy crossbow with a simple lever you can cock as a free
action instead of winching as a normal action.
At best they should be limited range dart throwers like hand crossbows.
JB
"Wolfie" <needso...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20040119170358...@mb-m03.aol.com...
> >You're talking about a !#$#$ *chain* hitting harder and deadlier than
a
> >longsword, at reach distance, and with two-handed-weapon strength
bonuses,
> >no less. This weapon is absurd as implemented. The effort it would
take
> >to get over five feet of prickly chain moving with enough velocity
such
> >that a strike from part of it would have more striking power than a
sword
> >is enormous.
> >
> >-Michael
> >
>
> Chains are extemely leathal. Not only have I a met a martial artist
who could
> use a chain to knock over a 400 pound target
I can knock over a 400 pound target with my pinkie if it's balanced
poorly.
> he also accidently slashed through
> the fake leather cover over it with a "normal" chain. No spikes or
razors on
> the thing just a chain.
OMG it penetrated *fake leather* (that would be tearing by the way). Run
for the hills, women and children first!
> Also concider a "long sword" is 4 pounds and a spiked chain is listed
as 10
> pounds.
That's completely irrelevant. Weight in combination with design
determines the lethality of a weapon. Unless you'd like to argue that a
5 pound sack of feathers is more lethal than a longsword? Strange that
pillow fights haven't had a more significant impact on population
reduction.
> Not to mention the far greater leverage you can get with the chain.
This word "leverage", it does not mean what you think it does.
> It
> would be EASIER to generate momentum and damage with the chain
expecially if it
> was flanged or spiked.
Bullpap.
> Chains arn't aloud in schools or government buildings for a reason.
Oh and longswords are?
It's very simple. Look at the history and popularity of swords in and
for lethal conflict. Now look at spiked chains or, indeed, chains of any
description.... exactly.
Jim Davies
And horribly likely to fumble and get caught on every damn thing
within reach (table legs, curtains, doorhandles, your own backpack,
branches, next door's cat). Of course D&D doesn't have fumble rules,
but if it did, this thing would be a pig (and about as much use in a
fight).
Werebat
>
> "Michael Scott Brown" <mbr...@rand.org> typed:
>
> >"Werebat" <rpoi...@cox.net> wrote in message
> >news:400C27...@cox.net..
> >> chain?
> >
> > d4 damage, requires two hands but only does 1x strength. Bonus to trip
> >and disarm, variable reach. As full-round action, can set the chain
> >whipping around and make one attack at reach for 2d4 damage, or can use as
> >a double weapon without reach for 1d4/1d4. These override multiple attacks
> >from BAB, as the chain has to be 'rebooted' after attempting to strike in
> >these fashions.
>
> And horribly likely to fumble and get caught on every damn thing
> within reach (table legs, curtains, doorhandles, your own backpack,
> branches, next door's cat). Of course D&D doesn't have fumble rules,
> but if it did, this thing would be a pig (and about as much use in a
> fight).
"And henceforth, I shall no longer call myself The Deadly Bulb -- I
shall be Spiked Chain Leg!"
- Ron ^*^
Michael Scott Brown
> > d4 damage, requires two hands but only does 1x strength. Bonus to
trip
> >and disarm, variable reach. As full-round action, can set the chain
> >whipping around and make one attack at reach for 2d4 damage, or can use
as
> >a double weapon without reach for 1d4/1d4. These override multiple
attacks
> >from BAB, as the chain has to be 'rebooted' after attempting to strike
in
> >these fashions.
>
> And horribly likely to fumble and get caught on every damn thing
> within reach (table legs, curtains, doorhandles, your own backpack,
> branches, next door's cat). Of course D&D doesn't have fumble rules,
> but if it did, this thing would be a pig (and about as much use in a
> fight).
Perhaps those without the exotic weaopn proficiency shouldn't be able
to use the chain in anything other than its basic incarnation (and at -4,
to boot).
-Michael
Tetsubo
I'd have to agree with you here. The real world versions used a very
light bolt and probably not more than a 60 pound pull, 40 would be more
likely. A heavy crossbow is far stronger than that...
Michael Scott Brown
"JB" <JB...@talk21.com> wrote in message
news:400d2a54$0$23461$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com...
> That's completely irrelevant. Weight in combination with design
> determines the lethality of a weapon. Unless you'd like to argue that a
> 5 pound sack of feathers is more lethal than a longsword? Strange that
> pillow fights haven't had a more significant impact on population
> reduction.
Frankly, if the frequency of the subject in porn is any indication, I
think they *contribute* to the population ...
-Michael
Michael Scott Brown
news:20040119170358...@mb-m03.aol.com...
> >longsword, at reach distance, and with two-handed-weapon strength
bonuses,
> >no less. This weapon is absurd as implemented. The effort it would
take
> >to get over five feet of prickly chain moving with enough velocity such
> >that a strike from part of it would have more striking power than a
sword
> >is enormous.
>
This term "lethal" ... I do not think it means what you think it means,
given the context of the discussion. A block and tackle is "extremely
lethal" if dropped from sufficient height, too, but nobody in their right
mind would call such pulley systems *weapons*. The trick of a weapon to
rate the name is that it has to actually make it *easier* to kill things.
A big whopping chain *can* be spun up to enough velocity that the momentum
of the striking links will rival that of decent weapons, but in order to do
this it requires far more *time* (and great effort) than an attack with a
decent weapon (pop quiz: is one spin 'round enough? Hell no!). And once
one has all that momentum stored in the chain, one has no parrying defense
and few dodging options.
Those martial artists who use credible chain weapons in combat use them
in short throws (usually with something sharp on the end) to make
difficult-to-anticipate slashing attacks, and to entangle limb and weapon.
> Not only have I a met a martial artist who could
> use a chain to knock over a 400 pound target he also accidently slashed
through
> the fake leather cover over it with a "normal" chain. No spikes or razors
on
> the thing just a chain.
You get exactly the same results hitting something with a mace. Even
blows from bare fists split flesh apart; you don't think blows from metal
objects will tear leather?
> Also concider a "long sword" is 4 pounds and a spiked chain is listed as
10
> pounds.
<shakes head sadly>
The chain is a flexible implement, and only a fraction of its total
mass is involved in the impact (the links that actually strike). This is
why the chain is an *inefficient* tool in lengths that might provide reach;
you have to accelerate all the mass and linkage that *isn't going to
contribute to damage* in order to get the links on the ends up to speed.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, {flail} people figured out a long time
ago {flail}that putting a concentrated mass on a short chain {flail} was a
lot more effective ...
> Not to mention the far greater leverage you can get with the chain.
*Leverage*?
<falls on the floor laughing>
> It would be EASIER to generate momentum and damage with the chain
expecially if it
> was flanged or spiked.
Wolfie, YOU ARE A FUCKING MORON.
> Chains arn't aloud in schools or government buildings for a reason.
"More dangerous than your bare hands" <> "More dangerous than a
LONGSWORD".
This might win a prize for the most idiotic post yet from you.
Really, Wolfie - why do you bother? You know *nothing*.
-Michael
Werebat
>
> "JB" <JB...@talk21.com> wrote in message
> news:400d2a54$0$23461$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com..
> > determines the lethality of a weapon. Unless you'd like to argue that a
> > 5 pound sack of feathers is more lethal than a longsword? Strange that
> > pillow fights haven't had a more significant impact on population
> > reduction.
>
> Frankly, if the frequency of the subject in porn is any indication, I
> think they *contribute* to the population ...
HOO BOY...
You know, if Burke were actually the thinking type, he'd be all over this
post of yours.
I'm going to wager that he never even reads it.
Oh well.
- Ron ^*^
JB
> > > At least the Repeating Crossbow us passingly based on
reality...
> >
> > It's the power of it that pisses me off. Suddenly you can harness
all
> > the power of a heavy crossbow with a simple lever you can cock as a
free
> > action instead of winching as a normal action.
> >
> > At best they should be limited range dart throwers like hand
crossbows.
>
> I'd have to agree with you here. The real world versions used a
very
> light bolt and probably not more than a 60 pound pull, 40 would be
more
> likely. A heavy crossbow is far stronger than that...
I'd be surprised if there was a genuine example made from materials
available at the time that had a pull approaching 60 pounds. 40 sounds
closer to me and that gives it about 1/3 the power of a Heavy Crossbow.