Wild Shape and Animal Growth
Arandor
the Druid in my party just turned 12th level and can now Wild Shape
into a Dire Bear. More power to him. I also pointed at the Animal
Growth spell, which he used to turn Huge, gain AAA (Awesome And Awful)
bonuses and rip my poor monster to shreds. ;-)
But now that I'm looking at, is this actually legal? The Druid is
still an Animal, and he is Large (so smaller than Gargantuan), but the
last line of Animal Growth reads (I just noticed):
'Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack.'
And I suppose that the Wild Shape is a magical effect that increases
the Druid's size (from Medium as an Aasimar to Large as a Dire Bear).
Have I already answered my own question? ;-) Or do others think
otherwise?
Justisaur
Arandor wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> the Druid in my party just turned 12th level and can now Wild Shape
> into a Dire Bear. More power to him. I also pointed at the Animal
> Growth spell, which he used to turn Huge, gain AAA (Awesome And Awful)
> bonuses and rip my poor monster to shreds. ;-)
>
> But now that I'm looking at, is this actually legal? The Druid is
> still an Animal, and he is Large (so smaller than Gargantuan), but the
> last line of Animal Growth reads (I just noticed):
>
> 'Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack.'
>
> And I suppose that the Wild Shape is a magical effect that increases
> the Druid's size (from Medium as an Aasimar to Large as a Dire Bear).
>
No. It's a spell that changes shape. They are talking about things
like Enlarge Person, Riteous Might, etc.
> Have I already answered my own question? ;-) Or do others think
> otherwise?
Otherwise.
I'm not too sure about this combo though, if you allow spells that
affect animals to affect the druid in wildshape you open a huge can of
worms.
--
- Justisaur -
check http://justisaur.tripod.com/well.htm for my encounter generator,
xp calculator, and other usefull documents.
Eyebyte
type to match the new form, so a druid who WS into an animal is now the
animal type, and can be affected by any spells that target animals.
Animal growth works...but now he can also be affected by animal specific
spells like animal trance. In elemental form / plant form, this means that
the druid gains both the bonuses and weaknesses of the new type
The multiple bonuses here do stack...a 30 some odd strength from Dire bear
form, add +4 with a bulls str, add a size increase with animal growth. It
works. All I can say is beware of grappling druids.
> > Hi,
> >
> > the Druid in my party just turned 12th level and can now Wild Shape
> > into a Dire Bear. More power to him. I also pointed at the Animal
> > Growth spell, which he used to turn Huge, gain AAA (Awesome And Awful)
> > bonuses and rip my poor monster to shreds. ;-)
> >
> > But now that I'm looking at, is this actually legal? The Druid is
> > still an Animal, and he is Large (so smaller than Gargantuan), but the
> > last line of Animal Growth reads (I just noticed):
> >
> > 'Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack.'
2 animal growth spells cannot be cumulative (for example)
> >
> > And I suppose that the Wild Shape is a magical effect that increases
> > the Druid's size (from Medium as an Aasimar to Large as a Dire Bear).
> >
>
> No. It's a spell that changes shape. They are talking about things
> like Enlarge Person, Riteous Might, etc.
>
Yes, WS is not a magical effect that changes size (as Justisaur said)
> > Have I already answered my own question? ;-) Or do others think
> > otherwise?
>
> Otherwise.
>
> I'm not too sure about this combo though, if you allow spells that
> affect animals to affect the druid in wildshape you open a huge can of
> worms.
Polymorph opened the can....now its time to eat.
Rich
Arandor
> No. It's a spell that changes shape. They are talking about things
> like Enlarge Person, Riteous Might, etc.
I know that with those spells, it indeed would not stack. It does
change shape, yes, but did the Druid not only do that, but change size
as well?
That Wild Shape is a magical effect seems fairly straightforward. ;-)
So, question remains: did size increase? Strictly speaking: yes, it
did.
That Dire Bears happen to be Large 'naturally' has in and of itself
little to do with the Druid; the Druid is under the influence of a
magical effect that changed his size (oh, and his type too ;-)
> Otherwise.
>
> I'm not too sure about this combo though, if you allow spells that
> affect animals to affect the druid in wildshape you open a huge can of
> worms.
Ah, but the can was already open... He *is* an Animal, because type
*does* change with Wild Shape. What spells in particular are you
worried about?
Arandor
> Animal growth works...but now he can also be affected by animal specific
> spells like animal trance. In elemental form / plant form, this means that
> the druid gains both the bonuses and weaknesses of the new type
Nitpick: in Elemental form, the Druid retains his own type (usually
Humanoid), but he does gain the Elemental's feats, immunities, special
attacks, spell-like abilities (if any) etc.
> The multiple bonuses here do stack...a 30 some odd strength from Dire bear
> form, add +4 with a bulls str, add a size increase with animal growth. It
> works. All I can say is beware of grappling druids.
Not if they don't have Improved Grapple, or Improved Grab (but in bear
form he has that). Otherwise, as an Animal, his AC is usually low...
AoO anyone?
Cheers,
Arandor
Quentin Stephens
news:3FDF73CE...@rcsis.com:
>
>
> Arandor wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> the Druid in my party just turned 12th level and can now Wild
>> Shape into a Dire Bear. More power to him. I also pointed at
>> the Animal Growth spell, which he used to turn Huge, gain AAA
>> (Awesome And Awful) bonuses and rip my poor monster to shreds.
>> ;-)
>>
>> But now that I'm looking at, is this actually legal? The Druid
>> is still an Animal, and he is Large (so smaller than
>> Gargantuan), but the last line of Animal Growth reads (I just
>> noticed):
>>
>> 'Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack.'
>>
>> And I suppose that the Wild Shape is a magical effect that
>> increases the Druid's size (from Medium as an Aasimar to Large
>> as a Dire Bear).
>>
>
> No. It's a spell that changes shape. They are talking about
> things like Enlarge Person, Riteous Might, etc.
And as what sort of ability is Wildshape listed in 3.5?
Arandor
> > things like Enlarge Person, Riteous Might, etc.
>
> And as what sort of ability is Wildshape listed in 3.5?
- as a Druid class ability
- as a supernatural ability (and thereby magical)
Which one did you mean?
Cheers,
--
Arandor
Quentin Stephens
news:faf084f5.03121...@posting.google.com:
Both. The Druid's Wildshape is not a spell-like ability therefore,
I'd suggest, the Animal Growth spell stacks with it.
Arandor
> > Which one did you mean?
> Both. The Druid's Wildshape is not a spell-like ability therefore,
> I'd suggest, the Animal Growth spell stacks with it.
But the stacking of Animal Growth is not restricted to spells, or
spell-like abilities, but to *magical effects*. (Emphasis mine.) They
tend to quite clearly state when they mean spells or spell-like
effects. Moreover, Wildshape, while Supernatural (and hence a magical
effect) acts "like polymorph", which is a spell.
IOW, your "therefore" does not follow.
So the part "magical effect" is IMHO definitely satisfied, and Animal
Growth can then only stack with Wildshape if and only if Wildshape
does not increase size.
The question, then, becomes whether changing type (in his case, from
Outsider to Animal) *along* with increasing size means that you are
actually not increasing size anymore?
Cheers,
--
Arandor
Justisaur
Eyebyte wrote:
>
> In 3.5, polymorph (and therefore Wildshape) change the affected creature's
> type to match the new form, so a druid who WS into an animal is now the
> animal type, and can be affected by any spells that target animals.
>
There's conflicting rules to be found on this in the DMG & PHB, there's
been no eratta to say which is right so far.
Justisaur
Awaken Animal is the worst offender.
And as I've mentioned, there's conflicting rules in the core books on if
type changes.
Quentin Stephens
> Quentin Stephens <s...@stq.gro.uk.invalid> wrote in message
> news:<Xns9455D1310...@62.253.162.105>...
>> > Which one did you mean?
>> Both. The Druid's Wildshape is not a spell-like ability
>> therefore, I'd suggest, the Animal Growth spell stacks with it.
>
> But the stacking of Animal Growth is not restricted to spells,
> or spell-like abilities, but to *magical effects*. (Emphasis
> mine.) They tend to quite clearly state when they mean spells or
> spell-like effects. Moreover, Wildshape, while Supernatural (and
> hence a magical effect) acts "like polymorph", which is a spell.
>
> IOW, your "therefore" does not follow.
>
> So the part "magical effect" is IMHO definitely satisfied, and
> Animal Growth can then only stack with Wildshape if and only if
> Wildshape does not increase size.
You've convinced me.