(Question)Daern's Instant Fortress
Samryn
say either way.
Can you store things inside a Daern's Instant Fortress?
Example: Can I use a Daern's Instant Fortress as a really big Bag of
Holding?
Or maybe use it like a bus to sneak my buddies around in? Of course I would
change it's name to Daern's Instant Trojan Horse ;)
Lone Wolf (Chris Baile)
Based on what I've seen and read, I'd say no. It's a good idea, but
the Fortress shrinks down to the size of a cube... it's not an
extra-dimensional space like a Bag of Holding.
(it would be an interesting way to kill a person or monster trapped
inside!)
In that respect, the Fortress is a helluva offensive item. Throw
someone inside or lob the cube at them and shrink/expand... but unless
you want the wrath of the players and DM, don't smoosh your buddies
therein.
(Although if an evil wizard conacted the Fotress' owner and charmed
him or dominated him and got him to shrink it then...)
------
"Just because you ARE a character doesn't mean you
HAVE character."
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Larry Mead
: This is a real question, and this time I read the description, it does not
: say either way.
: Can you store things inside a Daern's Instant Fortress?
Yes, surely.
: Example: Can I use a Daern's Instant Fortress as a really big Bag of
: Holding?
I would not allow this; whatever is inside would be crushed when the
fortress folds up.
DMgorgon
--
Lawrence R. Mead Ph.D. (Lawren...@usm.edu)
Eschew Obfuscation! Espouse Elucidation!
www-dept.usm.edu/~physics/mead.html
Aristotle@Threshold
>This is a real question, and this time I read the description, it does not
>say either way.
>
>Can you store things inside a Daern's Instant Fortress?
>
>Holding?
>change it's name to Daern's Instant Trojan Horse ;)
LOL!
Actually, I think that would work. At least that is how I play it.
-Aristotle@Threshold
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bardic_d...@my-dejanews.com
> This is a real question, and this time I read the description, it does not
> say either way.
>
> Can you store things inside a Daern's Instant Fortress?
>
> Example: Can I use a Daern's Instant Fortress as a really big Bag of
> Holding?
> Or maybe use it like a bus to sneak my buddies around in? Of course I would
> change it's name to Daern's Instant Trojan Horse ;)
In the recent TSR novel Thornhold they used an artifact that way. The item
was a seige tower that could reduce or expand to whatever required size.
Personally for the standard fortress I would say no. The tower would not
reduce while occupied or would force the item/person out.
--
"It wasn't a lie, it was fiction"
Sir Valder, Elven Bard
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Barry B Wood
On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 bardic_d...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In the recent TSR novel Thornhold they used an artifact that way. The item
> was a seige tower that could reduce or expand to whatever required size.
>
> Personally for the standard fortress I would say no. The tower would not
> reduce while occupied or would force the item/person out.
I agree. I am also reminded that as a DM, I have often made the mistake
of using the TSR novels a "official" rulings. I learned the hard way,
but i still have players whining "But Dritz did it, so why can't I?"
Not to say we shouldn't pull inspiration and ideas out of the novels,
just be aware that they often stretch the rules.
Barry
The Viper
Samryn indicated that :
> This is a real question, and this time I read the description, it does not
> say either way.
>
> Can you store things inside a Daern's Instant Fortress?
Sure. Open the door, throw stuff in, close the door. Easy.
> Example: Can I use a Daern's Instant Fortress as a really big Bag of
> Holding?
> Or maybe use it like a bus to sneak my buddies around in? Of course I would
> change it's name to Daern's Instant Trojan Horse ;)
No, because *nowhere* in the description does it mention that you can
shrink it back down - it only mentions the expansion. Yup, it's a one-
shot.
--
The Viper
"You know it's bad when your characters try to escape [their] reality"
Quote from one of my players. <wince>
Aristotle@Threshold
>No, because *nowhere* in the description does it mention that you can
>shrink it back down - it only mentions the expansion. Yup, it's a one-
>shot.
Wow! I just re-read the descriptions for that magic item in both editions of
the DM's guide and you are right, there is no mention of shrinking it back
down.
There are a few vague statments that make it seem to be something you would
command to enlarge more than once (like the duration of 1 round to expand, and
the fact that it says the fortress "always" appears facing the owner- as if
the owner would command it to expand more than once).
That is really interesting- I never noticed that!
ba...@digital-marketplace.net
There is also a reference, "when activated", the small cube become
the tower, one might infer from that, there are two states of
the item On and Off, prehaps two command words.
Regards
Rob Hobbs
(The Viper) wrote:
>No, because *nowhere* in the description does it mention that you can
>shrink it back down - it only mentions the expansion. Yup, it's a one-
>shot.
Hmmm... *nowhere* in the description does it say it *can't* be shrunk
either. Personally, I think the item would be useless if it can't be
enlarged/shrunk at will. Therefore, in my campaign, they are multi-use
items.
Have a good one...
Rob
D. Cameron King
> >No, because *nowhere* in the description does it mention that you can
> >shrink it back down - it only mentions the expansion. Yup, it's a one-
> >shot.
>
> Hmmm... *nowhere* in the description does it say it *can't* be shrunk
> either. Personally, I think the item would be useless if it can't be
> enlarged/shrunk at will. Therefore, in my campaign, they are multi-use
> items.
And *nowhere* in the description does it say it *isn't* made of whipped
cream. Personally, I think the item would be less tasty if it can't be
used to top off apple pie. Therefore, in my campaign, they are
confectionary treats.
But hey, play it your way. You're going to anyway.
* * *
Friends help you move.
Real friends help you move bodies.
semtex encryption proletariat detonator classified plutonium cocaine
Bruce L. Grubb
Hobbs) wrote:
>In article <MPG.104d14128...@news.es.co.nz>, col...@es.spam-me.co.nz
>(The Viper) wrote:
>>No, because *nowhere* in the description does it mention that you can
>>shrink it back down - it only mentions the expansion. Yup, it's a one-
>>shot.
>
>Hmmm... *nowhere* in the description does it say it *can't* be shrunk
>either. Personally, I think the item would be useless if it can't be
>enlarged/shrunk at will. Therefore, in my campaign, they are multi-use
>items.
Besides for similar items it is impliced in the description if the item is
a 'one shot'. Daern's Instant Fortress has no such comment. Ergo the
item is reusable.
Rob Hobbs
hac...@mailbox.ucdavis.edu says...
>
>On 27 Aug 1998, Rob Hobbs wrote:
>
>> >No, because *nowhere* in the description does it mention that you can
>> >shrink it back down - it only mentions the expansion. Yup, it's a one-
>> >shot.
>>
>> Hmmm... *nowhere* in the description does it say it *can't* be shrunk
>> either. Personally, I think the item would be useless if it can't be
>> enlarged/shrunk at will. Therefore, in my campaign, they are multi-use
>> items.
>
>cream. Personally, I think the item would be less tasty if it can't be
>confectionary treats.
Daern's Instant Dessert Toping... mmmm tasty. :)
But seriously...
Check the 1st ed DMG, the EP and GP value are too high for a 1 shot magic
item (with or without whippedcream). Also, as has been noted by someone
else on this thread, parts of the description indicate multiple uses.
IIRC, "...the fortress always appears with the door facing the user..."
(that might not be the exact wording, but is should be close)
Since the description is given for a singular subject, "Daern's Instant
Fortress" not a plural one "Daern's Instant Fortresses", then the use of
"always appears" implies that the subject can be used multiple times.
Thats why I feel it's a multi-use item. But thats just my world, obviously
you can do it however you like in your world. :)
Joseph M. Shair
1-shot item.
On checking in my wreckage of a 1979 DMG, I can only speculate that the
statement:
"Note that damage sustained is cumulative."
was responsible for our assumption. Since damage sustained by anything is
normally cumulative, we took that to mean that the damage was cumulative from
usage to usage, as opposed to an item which repaired its damages between usages
such as cube of force or various figurines of power.
After full reflection and noticing that it specifically does not state that DIF is
a multi-shot item, I have concluded that the above is a valid assumption and
hereby rule from my Porcelain Seat of Pomposity that:
1: the DIF is a multi-usage item.
2: unless your DM says otherwise.
Rob Hobbs wrote:
> In article <MPG.104d14128...@news.es.co.nz>, col...@es.spam-me.co.nz
> (The Viper) wrote:
> >No, because *nowhere* in the description does it mention that you can
> >shrink it back down - it only mentions the expansion. Yup, it's a one-
> >shot.
>
> Hmmm... *nowhere* in the description does it say it *can't* be shrunk
> either. Personally, I think the item would be useless if it can't be
> enlarged/shrunk at will. Therefore, in my campaign, they are multi-use
> items.
>
D. Cameron King
> >> >No, because *nowhere* in the description does it mention that you can
> >> >shrink it back down - it only mentions the expansion. Yup, it's a one-
> >> >shot.
> >>
> >> Hmmm... *nowhere* in the description does it say it *can't* be shrunk
> >> either. Personally, I think the item would be useless if it can't be
> >> enlarged/shrunk at will. Therefore, in my campaign, they are multi-use
> >> items.
> >
> >And *nowhere* in the description does it say it *isn't* made of whipped
> >cream. Personally, I think the item would be less tasty if it can't be
> >used to top off apple pie. Therefore, in my campaign, they are
> >confectionary treats.
[snip]
> Check the 1st ed DMG, the EP and GP value are too high for a 1 shot magic
> item (with or without whippedcream). Also, as has been noted by someone
> else on this thread, parts of the description indicate multiple uses.
I did as you suggested, and checked the 1st ed DMG's XP and GP values.
Interestingly enough, I find that the evidence supports a one-shot
interpretation.
Let us begin with the claim that the XP and GP values are too high for
a one-shot magic item. Daern's Instant Fortress (DIF) is worth 7,000
XP and 27,500 GP. A Libram of Gainful Conjuration (LGC) is a one-shot
item worth 8,000 XP and 40,000 GP. We can therefore conclude that
there is nothing which bars powerful one-shot magic items from being
worth more than 7,000 XP and/or 27,500 GP.
Next, let's compare DIF to a known multi-use item, the Folding Boat
(10,000 XP and 25,000 GP). Its description states: "A third word of
command will cause the boat/ship to fold itself into a box once again."
While at first glance this might seem to support the multi-use DIF
interpretation (after all, they're worth about the same GP), further
thought reveals otherwise. DIF is a 20' square, 30' high tower with
adamantite walls which are impervious to normal weapons and even Knock
spells. A Folding Boat, on the other hand, can be a perfectly normal
large boat (seats 3 or 4 comfortably) OR a perfectly normal small
ship (carries 15 with ease). Assuming both were multi-use items,
which would YOU pay more for? And would you only pay 10% more (27,500
GP rather than 25,000 GP) for it? I doubt it.
Finally, let's compare DIF to a non-magical version of itself. A
20' square, 30' high tower made of ordinary stone costs (according to
the 1st ed DMG, on page 107) 900 GP. For that you get no doors,
no arrow slits, no battlements, one stone floor, one stone roof,
and a stone staircase. It can sustain 30-50 points of damage.
900 GP is approximately 1/30 of 27,500 GP (the value of DIF). So,
for 30 times the money, you get: adamantite walls (extending 10'
into the ground, by the way), impervious to normal weaponry and able
to sustain 200 points of damage in any case; a door which cannot be
opened by anyone but the owner no matter what; and portability. Oh,
plus arrow slits on all sides and a machicolated battlement (which
would have cost another 100 GP or so to put on our plain stone
version).
I submit that any tactician worth his salt would pay 30 times as
much for portability alone--and much more than that for adamantite
walls. Frankly, if DIF is intended to be a multi-use item, its XP
and GP values are much, *much* too low!
> IIRC, "...the fortress always appears with the door facing the user..."
> (that might not be the exact wording, but is should be close)
>
> Since the description is given for a singular subject, "Daern's Instant
> Fortress" not a plural one "Daern's Instant Fortresses", then the use of
> "always appears" implies that the subject can be used multiple times.
This follows only if DIF is a unique item. Such singular status would
be almost as important to include in the description as say, multi-use
capability. But maybe they overlooked both.
> Thats why I feel it's a multi-use item. But thats just my world, obviously
> you can do it however you like in your world. :)
I've enjoyed debating the issue with you, and I would welcome further
discussion--especially if you find any flaws in my reasoning.
Michael Edward Richardson
> No, because *nowhere* in the description does it mention that you can
> shrink it back down - it only mentions the expansion. Yup, it's a one-
> shot.
> --
Now this is kinda cool. As many years as I've played this game, it never
occured to me to even think of DIF (one of my favorite items, btw) as a
one shot item. I can see the logic of it now that you point it out.
Still gonna be multiple-use in my world but interesting to play a game
for this long and still find new perspectives on it.
Thanks,
Mike Richardson
ba...@digital-marketplace.net
I repeat, not knowing if my last most made it to NG, the
description indicated when activated, which to be
indicates, that it also can be deactivated, with a commanr
word. On and off. I do agree this is not stated in
description as such, but I believe reading a few other items
you might find the same lack.
In regards and may your games go well
D. Cameron King
> I repeat, not knowing if my last most made it to NG, the
> description indicated when activated, which to be
> indicates, that it also can be deactivated, with a commanr
> word. On and off. I do agree this is not stated in
> description as such, but I believe reading a few other items
> you might find the same lack.
In a word, no. The ability to activate a thing does not necessarily
imply that it can be deactivated. If I "activate" a bomb, it blows
up. There is nothing left to "deactivate."
D.G. Larush
couldn't be a one-shot. In fact that could be kind of cool. There could
be several adamantite fortresses kicking around the countryside because
adventurers slapped them down in a place they THOUGHT they'd be useful,
or where they just desperately needed shelter for one night.
And contrary to a previous post, a one-shot instant fortress would NOT be
useless. Instead of it being the magical equivalent of a well fortified
tent, the instant fortress would be saved for a place where it could
really be useful; like guarding an area which needs to be defended right
now, but is too perilous to be able to build a castle with conventional
labour. It would also make a kick-ass siege weapon...
"They're coming over the walls sire!"
"But we've seen no siege tower... HEY! Where did that fortress come
from?!"
David