Centaurs, why are they good?
Daniel James Corwin
I was just wondering where the notion that centaurs are good (or neutral)
came from? I just finished taking a Greek Mythology course, and good
centaurs are the *exception*, not the norm. Usually, they're barbaric,
wild men, that like to get drunk and beat the hell out of people with
tree-sized clubs! I mean, this surprised me too, most modern day fantasy
protrays them as kindly forest-dwelling creatures. I was just wondering
if anyone knows why the concept changed so drasticly?
--
Dan Corwin
dc10...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu
Jonathan Nusholtz
In article <E6urB...@boss.cs.ohiou.edu>, dc10...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu
says...
somewhat. And most forest-dwellers are considered good or at least
neutral, few evil. (Elves, centaurs, nymphs, etc.)
Jonathan
Bill Sgammato
>I was just wondering where the notion that centaurs are good (or
>good centaurs are the*exception*, not the norm. Usually, they're
>barbaric,wild men, that like to get drunk and beat the hell out
>most modern day fantasy protrays them as kindly forest-dwelling
>creatures. I was just wondering if anyone knows why the concept
>changed so drasticly?
Sure, I can tell you why centaurs are "good" in modern day
fantasy. They're cool, that's why. They're part guy, part
horse, they make a great character in a story. It would be a
waste of a really good mythical figure to make these guys all
bad. The same is true of giants.
In RPG's like AD&D, centaurs are usually smart enough to run the
range in alignment. Depending on their place in the story, they
can be good, bad, or indifferent. I find it maddening to play
next to a player who will have thier character happen upon a
dwarf and say, "Oh we got nothing to fear, Dwarves are Lawful
Good. See it says here in the MM." Yeah... right.
Bill S.
Milford, MA
Mad Hatter
Jonathan Nusholtz wrote:
> There's just so many evil things out there...centaurs help balance that
> somewhat. And most forest-dwellers are considered good or at least
> neutral, few evil. (Elves, centaurs, nymphs, etc.)
> Jonathan
Yes... But why?
Elves were not evil, but rather mischevous and unkind and defenitely not
benevolent. Nymphs cared nothing of the human, merely of their own
satisfaction. And centaurs, again, were wicked. Why did TSR change these
things?
--
If you eat a live frog in the morning, nothing worse will happen to
either of you for the rest of the day.
The Amorphous Mass
Daniel James Corwin (dc10...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu) wrote:
>I was just wondering where the notion that centaurs are good (or neutral)
>came from? I just finished taking a Greek Mythology course, and good
>tree-sized clubs! I mean, this surprised me too, most modern day fantasy
>protrays them as kindly forest-dwelling creatures. I was just wondering
>if anyone knows why the concept changed so drasticly?
I suspect it started when fantasy and fairy tales and the like got
bowdlerized 100-odd years ago and appropriated as "children's stories."
I remember running into shiny happy centaurs in C. S. Lewis' _Chronicles of
Narnia_, which I imagine has influenced a large number of people. D&D's
centaurs resemble Lewis' rather closely, although I don't know if the
former are actually based on the latter.
--
The Amorphous Mass If I knew what I was doing,
amo...@avalon.net it wouldn't be research.
xei...@ix.netcom.com
Why are centaurs considered good? Well, Pholos was quite hospitable
to Hercules during the 4th labor. Chiron tutored Achilles, Hercules,
Asclepius, Jason, and several other Greek heroes.
Centaurs were kinda bad during the wedding of the Lapiths, when they
got drunk (resulting in a war which they lost).
Anybody who loses a war will get bad press. And the centaurs were
pretty much completely slaughtered, at least on this planet.
Some humans have done bad things, too ... and there are some good
humans to conteract them (at least there used to be, before tabloid
journalism). But Humans aren't considered evil, for the most part.
TSR had nothing to do with this. Indeed, they were monsters
originally (Chaotic Good, but leave us alone). But for years TSR got
letters from people like me, who liked using centaurs as characters.
Centaurs are beautiful creatures in Greek art. If you're ever in
Olympus, check out the centauromachias in the museum there.
Eventually, TSR gavein to public demand, and printed an article
about centaur PCs in Dragon 92.
Chiron is a perpetually fascinating character. He sacrificed his
life for Prometheus, giver of fire. Check out John Updike's The
Centaur for an interesting take on this. Or John Varley's Wizard for
another. Carl Sherrell's The Space Prodigal. Donna Barr's Stinz
comic books. Poul Anderson's Fire Time. The Ironwood comic books.
The current Hercules TV series (or Xena).
TSR had little to do with the popularity of centaurs. (That's my
prefered race of choice for PCs).
--ED!
Jason Hatter
Mad Hatter (st...@cryptont.com) wrote:
: Yes... But why?
: Elves were not evil, but rather mischevous and unkind and defenitely not
: benevolent. Nymphs cared nothing of the human, merely of their own
: satisfaction. And centaurs, again, were wicked. Why did TSR change these
: things?
Lets see. IIRC, Tolkeins' elves are what most people would consider
"good". AD&D was originally based on Tolkein's paradigm (which was
modelled somewhat on the Sidhe of the Celtic peoples, from what I'm told,
and the Sidhe were generally uncaring, mischevious, and *sometimes*
benevolent). As for nymphys, AD&D nymphs only care for themselves, so
that fits with the original myths. Centaurs, well, that's a horse of a
different color...*gryn* I'd have to go with another poster: because they
were cooler this way. Not to mention, centaurs are STILL considered
standoffish and aloof...
--
Jason
http://www.cris.com/~towonder/
RPG stuff at http://www.cris.com/~towonder/rpg.html
featuring Sailor Moon V at http://www.cris.com/~towonder/fanfic.html
Dmitri Tikhomirov
Slightly off topic but I thought it might be interesting for some of you.
The centaurs are a mythical (poetical) representation of the actual
Scythians which were nomads, who settled on the territories north of the
Black Sea by the 9th century B.C. And were replaced by the Sarmatians in
the 3d century B.C.
They were the closest barbaric northern neighbours of the ancient Greeks.
When they first appeared on the territory, the Greeks were so much amazed
by their horse-riding skills, that they portrayed them as half human (male
- because the Greeks first encountered only the Scythian warriors and only
Scythian men rode horses), half-horse. And yes - the Scythians were famous
for their habit of drinking (compared to the sober Greeks, of course), that
is why the centaurs drink so much wine in the mythology. Actually Darius
managed to destroy a big unit of the Scythian army during his expidition
against them. He chose a large unit of his most weakest warriors - provided
them with lots of food and even more wine, and sent them out ahead of his
army. A large Scythian force attacked the unit, easily destroyed it and
then started a feast right on the spot. Later that night the main army of
Darius arrived and killed all those Scythians, since they were to drunk to
retreat or defend themselves. Nevertheless, Darius failed to get rid of the
Scythians and had to go back home, followed by the Scythians, who once
again settled down on the northern coast of the Black Sea and the adjacent
plains.
Well, so much for historical reference - I hope you enjoyed it.
Dmitri Tikhomirov
P.s.: Before the Scythians finally settled down on that territory, they had
to force the Cimmerians off the land and eventually killed or assimilated
most of them (Was Conan the Barbarian a Cimmerian, or did he fight against
them?)
xei...@ix.netcom.com wrote in article
<33278f42...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
Fhaolan
"Dmitri Tikhomirov" <wo...@redline.ru> wrote:
>P.s.: Before the Scythians finally settled down on that territory, they had
>to force the Cimmerians off the land and eventually killed or assimilated
>most of them (Was Conan the Barbarian a Cimmerian, or did he fight against
>them?)
Conan is refered to as a Cimmerian in many sources, however he is also
refered to as a Hyperborean (sp?) which, if I remember correctly, is
one of the Roman names for Wales. The character of Conan is very
similar to many Celtic heroes, and the name Conan itself is a Celtic
one as well. (1)
(1) Conan Maol: In Irish myth: One of the Fianna, follower of Fionn.
Irritating to his compatriots, but renound for his reckless heroism.
Possibly inherited some myths from CuChulainn. In Welsh myth: More
active than in Irish, considerably more like CuChulainn. In fact,
could be the Welsh equivalent to CuChulainn, in the same manner that
'Slaine' could be the Scottish equivalent.
-
Allan Kemp
ark...@istar.ca
Mark Crowder
If you want an interesting super-variant on centaurs, look at
J Varley' 'Titan' series of books. The titanides are wonderful.
Mind you, so are the buzz bombs, luftmorders......
Mark Crowder
pouli...@gmail.com
> I was just wondering where the notion that centaurs are good (or neutral)
> came from? I just finished taking a Greek Mythology course, and good
> centaurs are the *exception*, not the norm. Usually, they're barbaric,
> wild men, that like to get drunk and beat the hell out of people with
> tree-sized clubs! I mean, this surprised me too, most modern day fantasy
> protrays them as kindly forest-dwelling creatures. I was just wondering
> if anyone knows why the concept changed so drasticly?
> Dan Corwin
> dc10...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu
I did not like how centaurs (well, at least one of them) were depicted in one of the Sinbad movies from the 1960s. The centaur in that film was a cruel and evil character (with only one eye like a Cyclopes) who brutally kills the Griffin (part eagle, part lion), the force of good, before he in turn is killed by Sinbad. Leave it to Hollywood to screw things up entirely.
Gorg David Huff
bunch of greek bad asses. It's the old story of man bites dog. If a
dog bites a man it's not news. If a man bites a dog it's news. Listen
to the news and you'll come to think dogs are under constant threat
from rabid postmen.
Chiron is the one that made the news the one that made the plays and
stories. Who cares if he's the exception that proves the rule he's the
one that people remember.
Gorg