Sorcerer's optimal spell list
Nockermensch
different route. If you can't go for style, go for efficiency. Here's
the catch:
A sorcerer has so few spells that one could possibly devise a "maximum
efficiency" spell list given his limits. If you would play as a
sorcerer, what spells would you choose if trying to cover the maximum
range of situations? Present this list from the 1st to Xth level (stop
when you're sufficiently bored).
Are there spells that ALL sorcerers should take? I believe Shield is
one of these. I cannot imagine one not learning shield as one of their
first spells, since its utility remains for the entire career. (+7
deflection AC always matters).
@ @ Nockermensch, forget the fire and the death sorcerer. I want to
see the powergamer sorcerers now.
Andrew Tellez
Nockermensch wrote:
>
> Since people disagreed with my "themed sorcerers" idea, I took a
> different route. If you can't go for style, go for efficiency.
Perhaps your style was weak? :)
> efficiency" spell list given his limits. If you would play as a
> sorcerer, what spells would you choose if trying to cover the maximum
> range of situations? Present this list from the 1st to Xth level (stop
Well, I'm going to have this problem soon, as I'll be playing one.
Prestige class choice matters, since one can avoid the need for some
spells. One level of Mindbender (mental communication) and at least one
level of Divine Oracle (Divination domain), but the rest don't matter
too much. Unless you take Arcane Preparation and go into Mage of the
Arcane Order, but that doesn't affect the known spells much, it just
makes others available.
Level 1
0: Open / Close
0: Daze
0: Mage Hand
0: Light
1: Feather Fall
1: Charm Person
Level 2
0: Resistance
Level 3
1: Mount
Level 4
0: Mending
2: Web
Level 5
1: Magic Missile
2: Glitterdust
Level 6
0: Detect Magic
3: Sleet Storm or Stinking Cloud (Equivalent in many situations.)
Level 7
1: Message
2: Alter Self
3: Greater Magic Weapon
Level 8
0: Arcane Mark
4: Charm Monster
Level 9
2: Darkvision
3: Dispel Magic
4: Shadow Conjuration
Level 10
0: Ray of Frost (Doesn't really matter, but it keeps drinks cool.)
5: Shadow Evocation
level 11
2: Pyrotechnics
3: Lightning Bolt
4: Dimension Door
5: Telekinesis
Level 12
6: Shades
Level 13
4: Enervation
5: Wall of Force
6: Greater Dispelling
Level 14
7: Shadow Walk or Teleport Without Error (Depends on campaign issues,
number of followers, and how often long-distance travel is needed.)
Level 15
5: Dominate Person
6: Contingency
7: Forcecage
Level 16
8: Mind Blank
Level 17
7: Simulacrum or Reverse Gravity (Depending on how the DM limits
Simulacrum)
8: Maze
Level 18
9: Time Stop
Level 19
8: Demand or Otiluke's Telekinetic Sphere (Depending on how often the
party needs to send long distance messages.)
9: Gate
Level 20
9: Shapechange or Dominate Monster (Depending on the number of
fights.)
J.D. Spangler
nocker...@hotmail.com (Nockermensch) wrote:
>Since people disagreed with my "themed sorcerers" idea, I took a
>different route. If you can't go for style, go for efficiency. Here's
>the catch:
>
>A sorcerer has so few spells that one could possibly devise a "maximum
>efficiency" spell list given his limits. If you would play as a
>sorcerer, what spells would you choose if trying to cover the maximum
>range of situations? Present this list from the 1st to Xth level (stop
>when you're sufficiently bored).
>
>Are there spells that ALL sorcerers should take? I believe Shield is
>one of these. I cannot imagine one not learning shield as one of their
>first spells, since its utility remains for the entire career. (+7
>deflection AC always matters).
This isn't a full list since I don't have a book on me right now, but here's
some I find indispensable from both prior experience as a wizard and current
experience as a 5th level sorc:
0:
Prestidigitation- almost infinite amount of minor effects for your dollar.
Light - Save money on torches early on before you can buy continual flame
stones, and after that they make instant flares/markers.
Mage Hand - Good for nicking small items or handling dangerous ones at range.
Combined with Light you also have a good distraction.
Detect Magic: Find the goodies!
1st:
Magic Missile- the ability to hit any visible opponent, no save or dodge
except for shield spell (another excellent reason to always have shield)
with a force effect (which no one is immune to), as well as extra missiles
at higher levels AND no material component makes this a must-have.
Shield for the AC bonus, reflex save bonus, and magic missile protection.
One of the slickest moments in my budding career was charging to the rescue
of a comrade and the enemy spellcaster throwing a swarm of magic missiles
right into my shield. If she had used a bigger spell I'd have been dead but
the rogue crept up and sneak attacked her (fatality!) before she could recover.
2nd:
Alter Self, the first of the "jack of all trades" spells. Disguise, claws
if the DM allows, flight, and waterbreathing make this indispensable to me,
plus you can get some weird effects by adding extra limbs :^)
3rd:
Dispel Magic: Jack of all Trades counterspell.
5th:
Disintegrate: I've found this to be a remarkable all-purpose death spell/door-opener.
Vaporizing solid objects tends to make others wary when you point your finger
in their direction.
7th:
Limited Wish: This and Wish are the uber-spells for the sorceror since you
can duplicate most other spells and negate an incredible variety of effects.
The idea of "my will be done" complements the idea of the sorceror as one
who wields power from within make it good thematically too.
Regards,
J.D. Spangler
Username is ayrsayle and I use hotmail. You do the math.
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Daniel Glass
> <snip>
> @ @ Nockermensch, forget the fire and the death sorcerer. I want to
> see the powergamer sorcerers now.
Therein lies the weakness of the sorcerer. With no flexability he can
sometimes get shafted. My Uber sorcerer is Sor5, Mage of the Arcane
Order5. Want to cast any spell as many times as you are allowed at that
level? Okay, there you go. Of course, you still want to choose your
learned spells wisely. But seriously though. If your DM doesn't already
have _Tome and Blood_ you should buy it for him. Use whatever to convince
him to let you take Mage of the Arcane Order PrC. It just rocks. And
rolls. All day long.
Nockermensch
>
> This isn't a full list since I don't have a book on me right now, but here's
> some I find indispensable from both prior experience as a wizard and current
> experience as a 5th level sorc:
>
> 0:
> Prestidigitation- almost infinite amount of minor effects for your dollar.
Lovely spell.
> Light - Save money on torches early on before you can buy continual flame
> stones, and after that they make instant flares/markers.
>
> Mage Hand - Good for nicking small items or handling dangerous ones at range.
> Combined with Light you also have a good distraction.
>
> Detect Magic: Find the goodies!
It's hard to imagine a sorcerer without detect magic. I basically
agree with your cantrip choice (I'd go for dancing lights instead
light, since DL doesn't give your position. With the extra cantrip I'd
get read magic for some quick scroll casting)
> 1st:
> Magic Missile- the ability to hit any visible opponent, no save or dodge
> except for shield spell (another excellent reason to always have shield)
> with a force effect (which no one is immune to), as well as extra missiles
> at higher levels AND no material component makes this a must-have.
>
> Shield for the AC bonus, reflex save bonus, and magic missile protection.
> One of the slickest moments in my budding career was charging to the rescue
> of a comrade and the enemy spellcaster throwing a swarm of magic missiles
> right into my shield. If she had used a bigger spell I'd have been dead but
> the rogue crept up and sneak attacked her (fatality!) before she could recover.
Shield is the arcane spellcaster best friend. And magic missile comes
close. I'm glad Monte Cook didn't make them 5th level spells in his
"variant sorcerer".
> 2nd:
> Alter Self, the first of the "jack of all trades" spells. Disguise, claws
> if the DM allows, flight, and waterbreathing make this indispensable to me,
> plus you can get some weird effects by adding extra limbs :^)
Cool. But sadly Alter Self is pretty much negated by 4th level
polymorph self, this really one of the sorcerer's staples in my book.
If your DM allowed that nice "similar spells swapping" rule people
proposed here I could give alter self a better grade.
> 3rd:
> Dispel Magic: Jack of all Trades counterspell.
Even that there's Greater Dispelling, Dispel magic is just too useful
to ignore.
> 5th:
> Disintegrate: I've found this to be a remarkable all-purpose death spell/door-opener.
> Vaporizing solid objects tends to make others wary when you point your finger
> in their direction.
Disintegrate is useful for a lot of things, including the uncanny
ability of destroying walls of force (or almost anything else, for
what matters)
> 7th:
> Limited Wish: This and Wish are the uber-spells for the sorceror since you
> can duplicate most other spells and negate an incredible variety of effects.
> The idea of "my will be done" complements the idea of the sorceror as one
> who wields power from within make it good thematically too.
Limited Wish yes, but the XP cost of Wish seems to turn it prohibitive
for a sorcerer. Why would you spent one of your few learned spells in
something you would refrain to use but in the direst circunstances?
5000 XP is hard to come by, even at levels 18+... For 9th level spells
I'd go for Shapechange (the ultimate Jack of all Trades' spell) and
Time Stop (which can be used offensively and defensively)
@ @ Nockermensch, trying to figure how much charisma this "Sorcerer's
Stone" would grant... (hint: I didn't read the books yet)
HADSIL
>Since people disagreed with my "themed sorcerers" idea, I took a
>different route. If you can't go for style, go for efficiency. Here's
>the catch:
Not everyone. I liked the themed Sorcerer idea.
:-)
Gerald Katz
Twin Towers forever!
ScarLip
wrote:
The best spells for a Sor are the Shadow Envocation and Shadow
Conjuration both let you cast any spell, even if you don't have that
spell. Color Spray is is good at low levels and its ok at high levels
because it still stuns high hit dice monsters. Sean K Reyonold also
wrote rules for Sor to trade in old spells for new spells; check it out
http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/pathmagic.html
ScarLip
Michael Schneider
nocker...@hotmail.com (Nockermensch) wrote:
> "J.D. Spangler" <s...@sig.file> wrote in message
news:<3cc72a3e$1...@news4.newsgroups.com>...
> >
> > This isn't a full list since I don't have a book on me right now, but here's
> > some I find indispensable from both prior experience as a wizard and current
> > experience as a 5th level sorc:
> >
> > 0:
> > Prestidigitation- almost infinite amount of minor effects for your dollar.
>
> Lovely spell.
It depends upon how religiously the DM invokes the "cannot duplicate any
other spell's effect" description.
I took Ghost Sound at 1st (along with Mage Hand, Light and Detect Magic).
> > 1st:
> > Magic Missile- the ability to hit any visible opponent, no save or dodge
> > except for shield spell (another excellent reason to always have shield)
> > with a force effect (which no one is immune to), as well as extra missiles
> > at higher levels AND no material component makes this a must-have.
It's a good 1st-level spell, but don't take it at 1st-level; wait until
3rd or 5th. True Strike is your 1st-level friend (great with a ranged
simple weapon that does more damage than a 1d4+1 MM) and lasts for the
long haul (unlike MM, which eventually fades in utility when everybody you
run into has a store-bought "Shield" amulet).
> > 2nd:
> > Alter Self, the first of the "jack of all trades" spells. Disguise, claws
> > if the DM allows, flight, and waterbreathing make this indispensable to me,
> > plus you can get some weird effects by adding extra limbs :^)
>
> Cool. But sadly Alter Self is pretty much negated by 4th level
> polymorph self, this really one of the sorcerer's staples in my book.
> If your DM allowed that nice "similar spells swapping" rule people
> proposed here I could give alter self a better grade.
The Polymorph spells (and Permanency) are the three general (i.e., other
than evil) spells banned in "Living Greyhawk", so Alter Self is essential.
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Nockermensch
Yeah, My gaming group has the book and I noticed that MotAO is allowed
for sorcerers who buy the arcane preparation feat. This PrC destroys
the sorcerers weakeness and turns them in high powerered wizards (they
even gain the metamagic feats). A sorcerer can easily keeps his
standing with the guild by sending spare spell slots whenever
possible.
@ @ Nockermensch, who also noticed that arcane preparation isn't a bad
choice for sorcs anyways, since it allows for one action metamagic
spells.
Rob Douglas
> Since people disagreed with my "themed sorcerers" idea, I took a
> different route. If you can't go for style, go for efficiency. Here's
> the catch:
>
> A sorcerer has so few spells that one could possibly devise a "maximum
> efficiency" spell list given his limits. If you would play as a
> sorcerer, what spells would you choose if trying to cover the maximum
> range of situations? Present this list from the 1st to Xth level (stop
> when you're sufficiently bored).
I think that the best way to plan a Sorcerer is to pick the spells you
want to have at 20th level. You can make changes during the campaign, but
you need a plan going in. I recently helped a player come up with her
spell list, and did some analysis. Here is what I came up with. These
are all IMO of course. YMMV.
Sorcerer spell choices.
Criteria:
Ignore spells that do not scale with level
Don't take Summon Monster
The things you can summon don't scale. Get
version VII or higher only.
Don't duplicate abilities/wait as long as you can
Hold Person vs. Hold Monster
Minor Globe vs. Globe of Invulnerability
Dimension Door, Teleport, or Teleport N/E
Pick spells that can be used in many situations
Fly
Wish
Prestidigitation
Pick spells that can be enhanced well by meta-magic
Sorcerers can really increase their effective repertoire
with metamagic.
B-best idea
Y-good idea
X-bad idea
M-Maybe, whatever you think
0-LEVEL SPELLS
X Arcane Mark
M Dancing Lights
X Daze
M Detect Magic
X Detect Poison
M Disrupt Undead
Y Flare
M Ghost Sound
Y Light
B Mage Hand
M Mending
M Open/Close
B Prestidigitation
B Ray of Frost
X Read Magic
M Resistance
1-LEVEL SPELLS
M Alarm
X Animate Rope
Y Burning Hands
X Cause Fear
Y Change Self
Y Charm Person
Y Chill Touch
X Color Spray
M Comprehend Languages
X Detect Secret Doors
X Detect Undead
M Endure Elements
M Enlarge
X Erase
Y Expeditious Retreat
Y Feather Fall
X Grease
X Hold Portal
X Hypnotism
M Identify
M Jump
X Mage Armor
B Magic Missile
X Magic Weapon
M Message
X Mount
X Nystul's Magic Aura
X Nystul's Undetectable Aura
Y Obscuring Mist
M Protection from *
Y Ray of Enfeeblement
M Reduce
B Shield
Y Shocking Grasp
X Silent Image
X Sleep
M Spider Climb
X Summon Monster I
X Tenser's Floating Disk
Y True Strike
M Unseen Servant
X Ventriloquism
2-LEVEL SPELLS
M Alter Self
X Arcane Lock
X Blindness/Deafness
M Blur
Y Bull's Strength
Y Cat's Grace
X Continual Flame
X Darkness
X Darkvision
X Daylight
M Detect Thoughts
Y Endurance
Y Flaming Sphere
M Fog Cloud
M Ghoul Touch
X Glitterdust
X Hypnotic Pattern
Y Invisibility
M Knock
X Leomund's Trap
M Levitate
X Locate Object
X Magic Mouth
Y Melf's Acid Arrow
X Minor Image
B Mirror Image
X Misdirection
X Obscure Object
Y Protection from Arrows
X Pyrotechnics
M Resist Elements
X Rope Trick
X Scare
M See Invisibility
X Shatter
M Spectral Hand
X Summon Monster II
X Summon Swarm
Y Tasha's Hideous Laughter
Y Web
X Whispering Wind
3-LEVEL SPELLS
Y Blink
M Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Y Dispel Magic
B Displacement
X Explosive Runes
Y Fireball
Y Flame Arrow
Y Fly
M Gaseous Form
X Gentle Repose
Y Greater Magic Weapon
M Gust of Wind
X Halt Undead
B Haste
Y Hold Person
X Illusory Script
M Invisibility Sphere
X Keen Edge
X Leomund's Tiny Hut
Y Lightning Bolt
M Magic Circle against *
X Major Image
M Nondetection
X Phantom Steed
M Protection from Elements
X Secret Page
X Sepia Snake Sigil
X Shrink Item
Y Sleet Storm
B Slow
M Stinking Cloud
Y Suggestion
X Summon Monster III
M Tongues
Y Vampiric Touch
M Water Breathing
X Wind Wall
4-LEVEL SPELLS
X Arcane Eye
M Bestow Curse
Y Charm Monster
Y Confusion
M Contagion
X Detect Scrying
Y Dimension Door
X Dimensional Anchor
M Emotion
Y Enervation
Y Evard's Black Tentacles
Y Fear
B Fire Shield
X Fire Trap
X Hallucinatory Terrain
Y Ice Storm
X Illusory Wall
B Improved Invisibility
X Leomund's Secure Shelter
X Lesser Geas
X Locate Creature
X Minor Creation
Y Minor Globe of Invulnerability
X Otiluke's Resilient Sphere
X Phantasmal Killer
Y Polymorph Other
Y Polymorph Self
X Rainbow Pattern
X Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer
X Remove Curse
X Scrying
Y Shadow Conjuration
X Shout
X Solid Fog
Y Stoneskin
X Summon Monster IV
Y Wall of Fire
Y Wall of Ice
5-LEVEL SPELLS
X Animal Growth
X Animate Dead
X Bigby's Interposing Hand
Y Cloudkill
Y Cone of Cold
X Contact Other Plane
Y Dismissal
Y Dominate Person
X Dream
X Fabricate
X False Vision
Y Feeblemind
Y Greater Shadow Conjuration
Y Hold Monster
X Leomund's Secret Chest
Y Lesser Planar Binding
Y Magic Jar
X Major Creation
Y Mind Fog
X Mirage Arcana
M Mord's Faithful Hound
X Nightmare
M Passwall
X Permanency
X Persistent Image
X Prying Eyes
Y Rary's Telepathic Bond
X Seeming
X Sending
Y Shadow Evocation
X Stone Shape
X Summon Monster V
Y Telekinesis
B Teleport
X Transmute Mud to Rock
X Transmute Rock to Mud
Y Wall of Force
X Wall of Iron
X Wall of Stone
6-LEVEL SPELLS
X Acid Fog
X Analyze Dweomer
Y Antimagic Field
X Bigby's Forceful Hand
B Chain Lightning
Y Circle of Death
M Contingency
X Control Water
X Control Weather
Y Disintegrate
Y Eyebite
Y Flesh to Stone
Y Geas/Quest
Y Globe of Invulnerability
Y Greater Dispelling
Y Greater Shadow Evocation
X Guards and Wards
X Legend Lore
Y Mass Haste
Y Mass Suggestion
X Mislead
X Mord's Lucubration
X Move Earth
Y Otiluke's Freezing Sphere
X Permanent Image
M Planar Binding
X Programmed Image
Y Project Image
X Repulsion
X Shades
Y Stone to Flesh
X Summon Monster VI
Y Tenser's Transformation
M True Seeing
X Veil
7-LEVEL SPELLS
M Banishment
Y Bigby's Grasping Hand
M Control Undead
B Delayed Blast Fireball
M Drawmij's Instant Summons
M Ethereal Jaunt
Y Finger of Death
Y Forcecage
X Greater Scrying
Y Insanity
B Limited Wish
X Mass Invisibility
X Mord's Magnificent Mansion
X Mord's Sword
X Phase Door
X Plane Shift
Y Power Word, Stun
Y Prismatic Spray
X Reverse Gravity
X Sequester
X Shadow Walk
X Simulacrum
Y Spell Turning
X Statue
M Summon Monster VII
Y Teleport without Error
X Vanish
X Vision
8-LEVEL SPELLS
X Antipathy
Y Bigby's Clenched Fist
M Binding
X Clone
X Demand
X Discern Location
X Etherealness
M Greater Planar Binding
B Horrid Wilting
Y Incendiary Cloud
Y Iron Body
Y Mass Charm
X Maze
X Mind Blank
X Otiluke's Telekinetic Sphere
X Otto's Irresistible Dance
Y Polymorph Any Object
Y Power Word, Blind
Y Prismatic Wall
Y Protection from Spells
X Screen
Y Summon Monster VIII
Y Sunburst
Y Symbol
X Sympathy
X Trap the Soul
9-LEVEL SPELLS
M Astral Projection
Y Bigby's Crushing Hand
Y Dominate Monster
Y Energy Drain
Y Foresight
X Freedom
M Gate
Y Imprisonment
B Meteor Swarm
Y Mord's Disjunction
Y Power Word, Kill
Y Prismatic Sphere
X Refuge
Y Shapechange
X Soul Bind
Y Summon Monster IX
M Teleportation Circle
X Temporal Stasis
B Time Stop
Y Wail of the Banshee
X Weird V,S
B Wish
Alex Johnson
fighter/arcane spellcaster type so this was a big change). I'll tell
you some of what I chose. A lot of what people suggest here is good,
but then if you want you can create all kinds of specialized sorcerers
where there are better spell choices. My character design was a
fighter/mage in reverse...start with a sorcerer who knows only spells
with multiple uses and then focus on melee damage. Turns out AC and hp
were more of a problem than in previous editions of the game, so I
couldn't keep up once we hit 4th level. Now at 6th level I'm trying to
decide what I should do with him if I ever play him again. So here is
what I liked in my make. Things with * are what I'd have in every
sorcerer no matter what his purpose/style is.
Mage Hand*: Very useful for little tricks (grabbing objects high and
out of reach, starting brawls in bars without being the first person
hit, tripping traps from a safe position, and many others).
Burning Hands: Decent low level damage spell (everyone was complaining
that I didn't choose magic missile until I started to ignite things with
my fire and toast four opponents a round for 10-16 damage (I roll high
damage consistently on d4)).
Shield*: Gives very good AC bonus, blocks magic missiles, and doesn't
inferfere with spell casting. We played that the shield was pure energy
and therefore didn't need to be held (free hand for other actions plus
no arcane spell failure component), but I know not everybody plays this
way. Still, no sorcerer who intends to see combat can live without it.
Alter self: Someone pointed out the usefulness of this spell. I never
used it before, but I had a really great roleplaying experience with
change self before. Alter self should allow the same tricks, plus the
flying/swimming boons.
Dispel magic*: You can't counterspell many spells with a limited
repertoire. You also can use dispel magic against items for temporary
effects and against long term spells already in place.
Charm person or command seem like good spells. But a sorcerer needs
another offensive spell for 3rd spell level since by then the burning
hands is maxed out at 5d4. Melf's minute meteors probably is a good
follow on. I like to avoid cliche spellcasters, so I would not take
fireball or magic missile under any circumstances (and I've never played
anyone who knew either of these spells). I definitely don't agree on
taking light or dancing lights. My sorcerer carried around a box of
sunrods. They give 6hrs of light each and cost a pitance, while
weighing almost nothing. Can't afford to waste a spell slot on
something you can do better, longer for just 5gp (I think that's what I
paid for each rod).
Sorcerers in general seem to be good for three kinds of spells due to
their casting style (few known, many per day): enchantment, illusion,
and invocation. Anything else dilutes their usefulness and power
compared to other character classes.
Alex
James Buster
> Are there spells that ALL sorcerers should take? I believe Shield is
> one of these. I cannot imagine one not learning shield as one of their
> first spells, since its utility remains for the entire career. (+7
> deflection AC always matters).
Shield is a spell *no* sorceror should take. It doesn't scale well
with level. You are much better off casting it from a wand.
You also shouldn't get Wish. At 5000xp, it's a waste of a spell slot.
Better to cast it from a scroll.
Here's my Sorceror's spell list (or will be, if
he gets to 20th level). It's also pretty min-maxed. Explanations follow
the list; comments are encouraged.
0
Arcane Mark
Detect Poison
Detect Magic
Light
Disrupt Undead
Mage Hand
Prestidigitation
Ray of Frost
Flare
1
Magic Missile
Mage Armor
Identify
Detect Secret Doors
Reduce
2
Glitterdust
Blindness
Mirror Image
Alter Self
Darkvision
3
Fly
Haste
Lightning Bolt
Protection from Elements
4
Polymorph Other
Confusion
Improved Invisibility
Enervation
5
Wall of Force
Feeblemind
Prying Eyes
Hold Monster
6
Greater Dispelling
Eyebite
Disintegrate
7
Limited With
Mass Invisibility
Teleport without Error
8
Symbol
Polymorph Any Object
Mind Blank
9
Shapechange
Gate
Mordenkainen's Disjunction
Feats
Chain Spell
Ideal with ranged utility spells or targeted spells with no saving
throw, like Haste, Enervation, and Greater Dispelling.
Spell Selection
I tried to select spells that were generally useful, flexible in effect
and/or save type, and scale with level. I didn't want too many attack
spells. I could have chosen Horrid Wilting over Mind Blank, for example.
HW is a great attack spell. I'd rather not get Held or Dominated; being
useless or used against the party sucks.
1st
Mage Armor
Redundant with bracers, but lasts forever and your party will thank you
when it starts getting its butt kicked by incorporeals.
Identify
Better than schlepping back to far away places to have somebody else do
it, and it scales with level.
Detect Secret Doors
An often useful adventuring spell.
Reduce
Doesn't just weaken an opponent's Str; think bigger. It also reduces
weapon size. Huge weapons deal out mondo damage. Plus you can Reduce the
party and Teleport them.
2nd
Glitterdust
I like this better than See Invisible. It lets others see said invisible
targets and affects an area, plus bonus Blindness effect.
Alter Self
Cheap flight and water breathing.
Darkvision
I like to see in the dark, and lasts a long time.
3rd
Lightning Bolt
Slightly alterable shape makes it more flexible than Fireball.
Dispel Magic
I'll suffer the pain of waiting for Greater Dispelling. This isn't
effective at high levels against spell casters, though the utility of
Chained Dispel Magic at taking out wand and potion buffs in an enemy
party shouldn't be discounted. In the end, there's just too many other
good 3rd level spells.
Fly
Teleport is better for long-disance travel, and Fly might be too
redundant with items. Still, a generally good spell. I'd listen to
arguments for something else.
4th
Polymorph Other
Effectively an instant-death spell, plus has utility for helping out
one's party in odd situations.
Improved Invisibility
Enough said.
Enervate
Subtract 1d4 from target's attacks and saves? Sign me up. Add Chain, go
to town.
5th
Feeblemind
Ideal for taking out enemy spellcasters, plus one of the few spells
whose utility increases against high-level opponents: they are more
likely to have spell-like abilities and suffer -4 to save.
Wall of Force
Tactically useful at isolating enemies, plus defense.
Hold Monster
Needed single target spell for melees; party won't appreciate Confusion.
Also effectively an instant-death spell.
Prying Eyes
An unusual choice. Number of eyes and duration scale, plus has tactical
and informational uses.
6th
Eyebite
Flexible effects and save type.
Disintegrate
Not just an instant-death spell. You can't escape Forcecage or Wall of
Force with Finger of Death. I don't like the necessity of making an
attack roll, but I'll live. [Smile]
7th
Limited Wish
What more need be said?
Mass Invisibility
All-party stealth.
Teleport without Error
No mishaps or off-target 'ports. Note that with Teleport, you can arrive
off-target or have mishaps even if you are looking directly at the
target. That was enough for me, though I'd appreciate hearing
countervailing arguments.
8th
Mind Blank
Total defense to Hold, Dominate and Confusion, plus bonus anti-scrying
capability.
Symbol
Lots of flexibility, plus you can attack an area without harming your party.
Polymorph Any Object
Great, fun spell, again more flexibility.
9th
Shapechange
Offense, defense, and utility in one spell.
Gate
Ultimate summoning spell. Summon monsters with CRs that are effective.
Summon X generally summons monsters that are too low CR relative to the
party and its enemies (IMHO).
Mordenkainen's Disjunction
Killer anti-magic spell. Somewhat worried this is too redundant with
Greater Dispelling.
Michael Schneider
> My first 3E character was a sorcerer (I'm normally a fighter or
> fighter/arcane spellcaster type so this was a big change). I'll tell
> you some of what I chose. A lot of what people suggest here is good,
> but then if you want you can create all kinds of specialized sorcerers
> where there are better spell choices.
A rogue/sorcerer (going for arcane-trickster) is a great combination.
Go for sneaky stuff and True Strike.
> My character design was a
> fighter/mage in reverse...start with a sorcerer who knows only spells
> with multiple uses and then focus on melee damage. Turns out AC and hp
> were more of a problem than in previous editions of the game, so I
> couldn't keep up once we hit 4th level. Now at 6th level I'm trying to
> decide what I should do with him if I ever play him again. So here is
> what I liked in my make. Things with * are what I'd have in every
> sorcerer no matter what his purpose/style is.
>
> Mage Hand*: Very useful for little tricks (grabbing objects high and
> out of reach, starting brawls in bars without being the first person
> hit, tripping traps from a safe position, and many others).
Mage Hand is a requirement for arcane-trickster.
> Burning Hands: Decent low level damage spell (everyone was complaining
> that I didn't choose magic missile until I started to ignite things with
> my fire and toast four opponents a round for 10-16 damage (I roll high
> damage consistently on d4)).
Ray of Frost lets you stay out of melee. (I didn't bother taking a
combat cantrip -- I did more damage with a real weapon, especially since I
took True Strike as a starting 1st-level spell.)
> Shield*: Gives very good AC bonus, blocks magic missiles, and doesn't
> inferfere with spell casting. We played that the shield was pure energy
> and therefore didn't need to be held (free hand for other actions plus
> no arcane spell failure component), but I know not everybody plays this
> way. Still, no sorcerer who intends to see combat can live without it.
Shield "hovers"; it doesn't beed to be held. Moving it is a free-action.
Brett Evill
rdou...@stsci.edu (Rob Douglas) wrote:
>Sorcerer spell choices.
>Criteria:
> Ignore spells that do not scale with level
> Don't duplicate abilities/wait as long as you can
> Pick spells that can be used in many situations
> Pick spells that can be enhanced well by meta-magic
Avoid spells that are easily rendered redundant by magical items.
--
Regards,
Brett Evill
<ev...@NO.webone.JUNK.com.MAIL.au>
Nockermensch
> Here's my Sorceror's spell list (or will be, if
> he gets to 20th level). It's also pretty min-maxed. Explanations follow
> the list; comments are encouraged.
> Feats
> Chain Spell
> Ideal with ranged utility spells or targeted spells with no saving
> throw, like Haste, Enervation, and Greater Dispelling.
Pretty useful feat.
> Spell Selection
> I tried to select spells that were generally useful, flexible in effect
> and/or save type, and scale with level. I didn't want too many attack
> spells. I could have chosen Horrid Wilting over Mind Blank, for example.
> HW is a great attack spell. I'd rather not get Held or Dominated; being
> useless or used against the party sucks.
>
> 1st
> Mage Armor
> Redundant with bracers, but lasts forever and your party will thank you
> when it starts getting its butt kicked by incorporeals.
I'd do the opposite and cast mage armor from a wand. +7 AC is better
than +4 AC, and you'd be safer from magic missiles in the first
levels, when your hp is awfully low.
> Identify
> Better than schlepping back to far away places to have somebody else do
> it, and it scales with level.
I wouldn't take this as a sorcerer. This is the kind of spell a wizard
would surely take, but it'd hurt to have a fixed slot dedicated to it.
Also, there's a more powerful analyse dweomer later.
> Detect Secret Doors
> An often useful adventuring spell.
Are you serious? A rogue can do this just as well.
> Reduce
> Doesn't just weaken an opponent's Str; think bigger. It also reduces
> weapon size. Huge weapons deal out mondo damage. Plus you can Reduce the
> party and Teleport them.
Good call with the party shrinking for easier teleport. But it still
sounds like a strange spell for a sorcerer.
> 2nd
> Glitterdust
> I like this better than See Invisible. It lets others see said invisible
> targets and affects an area, plus bonus Blindness effect.
If you know where your invisible enemies are to cast glitterdust
there, then they already gave out their sneak attacks or so. But I
agree with the "let others see said invisible targets" and with the
blindness. An all around good spell who could really be a good choice
for sorcerers.
> Alter Self
> Cheap flight and water breathing.
People already pointed the many uses for this spell. I was overlooking
it. But there's poly other at 4th level...
> Darkvision
> I like to see in the dark, and lasts a long time.
Good enough.
> 3rd
> Lightning Bolt
> Slightly alterable shape makes it more flexible than Fireball.
Besides, fire is probably the most commonly resisted element.
> Dispel Magic
> I'll suffer the pain of waiting for Greater Dispelling. This isn't
> effective at high levels against spell casters, though the utility of
> Chained Dispel Magic at taking out wand and potion buffs in an enemy
> party shouldn't be discounted. In the end, there's just too many other
> good 3rd level spells.
Dispel Magic is too useful to overlooking. Agreed.
> Fly
> Teleport is better for long-disance travel, and Fly might be too
> redundant with items. Still, a generally good spell. I'd listen to
> arguments for something else.
Too many tatical uses for this spell. Anything who can be used to
defense and attack is in my sorcerer list.
> 4th
> Polymorph Other
> Effectively an instant-death spell, plus has utility for helping out
> one's party in odd situations.
Like turning your fighter friend in a troll. Yes, poly other is too
good.
> Improved Invisibility
> Enough said.
AOL!
> Enervate
> Subtract 1d4 from target's attacks and saves? Sign me up. Add Chain, go
> to town.
Specially with chain spell. About everybody is affected by negative
energy and ranged touches aren't exactly hard to make.
> 5th
> Feeblemind
> Ideal for taking out enemy spellcasters, plus one of the few spells
> whose utility increases against high-level opponents: they are more
> likely to have spell-like abilities and suffer -4 to save.
And yet another insta-death effect, or at least insta-disable.
> Wall of Force
> Tactically useful at isolating enemies, plus defense.
Attack/Defense = good. Also, it resists [greater] dispel magic. But
there's force cage who basically does the same.
> Hold Monster
> Needed single target spell for melees; party won't appreciate Confusion.
> Also effectively an instant-death spell.
You know, feeblemind/hold-monster form a nice suit of instant killing
spells. One for spellcaster monsters, the other for combat beasts
> Prying Eyes
> An unusual choice. Number of eyes and duration scale, plus has tactical
> and informational uses.
Not many useful 5th level spells anyway. Since you're not taking
teleport, I could even go and take stone skin (you can learn a lower
level spell if you can).
> 6th
> Eyebite
> Flexible effects and save type.
This is kinda redundant with feeblemind/holdmonster. You really want
to use the sleep gaze, since it basically kill your enemies.
> Disintegrate
> Not just an instant-death spell. You can't escape Forcecage or Wall of
> Force with Finger of Death. I don't like the necessity of making an
> attack roll, but I'll live. [Smile]
Great spell. Sadly, you won't be taking the loot of a disintegrated
NPC, but sometimes there's no other choice.
> 7th
> Limited Wish
> What more need be said?
This should provide all the flexibility a sorcerer ever needs - unless
you take the Mage of the Arcane Order PrC, but that is just *EVIL*.
> Mass Invisibility
> All-party stealth.
How about shadow-walk? Or spell turning? Or reverse gravity?
> Teleport without Error
> No mishaps or off-target 'ports. Note that with Teleport, you can arrive
> off-target or have mishaps even if you are looking directly at the
> target. That was enough for me, though I'd appreciate hearing
> countervailing arguments.
No discussion here. You need at least one travel method.
> 8th
> Mind Blank
> Total defense to Hold, Dominate and Confusion, plus bonus anti-scrying
> capability.
Also, it protects you about True Strike. No spellcaster should go
without this.
> Symbol
> Lots of flexibility, plus you can attack an area without harming your party.
Agreed on the flexibility. Symbol of Discord is one of the most
powerful attacks I can devise.
> Polymorph Any Object
> Great, fun spell, again more flexibility.
Sadly overcomes your Poly Other choice at 4th level. How about discern
location for easy navigation or otto's irresistible dance?
> 9th
> Shapechange
> Offense, defense, and utility in one spell.
My words exactly. Great spell. Did you noticed what happens if you
shapechange into a Will-o'-wisp?
> Gate
> Ultimate summoning spell. Summon monsters with CRs that are effective.
> Summon X generally summons monsters that are too low CR relative to the
> party and its enemies (IMHO).
Or opens a portal directly to a deity. Or instant travel.
> Mordenkainen's Disjunction
> Killer anti-magic spell. Somewhat worried this is too redundant with
> Greater Dispelling.
Since you didn't get Greater Dispelling, Mord's Disjunction is a good
choice.
Nice list overall, it can make for a pretty efficient sorcerer.
@ @ Nockermensch, who still can't agree with your choice of Mage Armor
over Shield though...