Gods in the Forgotten Realms (like Archmages!)
Nicholas Wade
I have bought FAITHS AND AVATARS for the Forgotten Realms
and I also own a copy of Legends and Lore and Monster Mythology,
and I am rather surprised at how some of the Gods and Their Avatars
have been powered up, SAY 3 times as much.
For example, Oghma in Legends and Lore is possible to take on if your party
is 20th level each, say, whereas in the Forgotten Realms you would all have to
be about 30th+ level to even survive. To illustrate, in Faiths and Avatars
Oghma is 40th level Bard, about 25th level M-User, and about 20th level Fighter
with 216 hp. In Legends and Lore, he is 12th level Bard and 10th level Fighter
with about 110hp. I am not entirely complaining about this, although a friend ofmine would like to be able to slay the avatars like, say 10 at a time, RIDICULOUS!, but does this mean that the Avatars in the Legends and Lore should be comparitively powered up?
If the answer is no, WHY NOT?? and anyway how does this Multispheric Powers business work?, if Ohma is an intermediate power in Legends and Lore and a Greater
Power in Faiths and Avatars, what is he in the Outlands? He seems to be second
to Odin generally, so what on earth type of god is Odin???
As an intermediate power, Oghma has the abilities of one i.e. he can shapechangeinto the largest example of any creature, can use 5 avatars at a time, he is NOTomniscient etc
As a Greater power, Oghma can shapechange into any form of any size (even planetary or larger), can kill at a thought use 10 avatars at a time, is practically omniscient in his spheres of influence and the planes on which he has worshippers AND he can do unlimited things at once (depending on his current form) instead of ONLY 100 .......WHY the sudden drop from INFINITY to a mere (comparatively)
100??? Infinity is ridiculous.......
To come to NonHuman powers, Why would Mystra and Moradin (dwarven power) be bothgreater powers in the outer planes, when Mystra only influences a finite no. of crystal spheres, when Dwarves on every Sphere, EVERYWHERE worship Moradin as their creator???? Surely this amounts to more divine power for Moradin making him more powerful than Mystra.
How can Greater Powers have only 10 avatars when many supervise hundreds, thousands, millions? of worlds and worshippers, how could they possible handle major
situations on say 11 or more of all these worlds???
Is Moradin's Avatar powered up from Monster Mythology to match the Human Gods'
Avatars in the Forgotten Realms? otherwise they could all walk right over him.
If gods have different status in different spheres, do they move from sphere to
sphere, changing status as they go (via Astral/Ethereal Planes as most cannot
enter the Prime Material Planes in their true form) In that case, why wouldnt
Oghma hang around in the Forgotten Realms to keep himself safe from his enemies?
Would gods like Odin be overpowers of certain Crystal Spheres? they are
generally regarded as creating Earth so why not?
Finally, WHY DO GREATER GODS WHO SUPPOSEDLY CREATE WORLDS HAVE TO REST FOR
ONE TURN (TEN MIN) PER TON OF CREATED OBJECT...?????....DOES THIS MEAN THAT
THEY RESTED FOR SAY TEN TRILLION MINUTES AFTER CREATING PLANETS..(A PROBABLE
UNDERESTIMATE)??????
This seems like some the TSR people are pulling themselves severely.....
especially some of those doing the Forgotten Realms Material.
ALL COMMENTS WELCOME :) :) :) :) :)y
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Nicholas Wade, Merlin of the circle of seven |
| s33...@student.uq.edu.au or wa...@valinor.commerce.uq.edu.au |
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Boyd
In article <4ogf13$m...@bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au>,
Nicholas Wade <wa...@commerce.uq.oz.au> wrote:
>I have bought FAITHS AND AVATARS for the Forgotten Realms
>and I also own a copy of Legends and Lore and Monster Mythology,
>and I am rather surprised at how some of the Gods and Their Avatars
>have been powered up, SAY 3 times as much.
>
I haven't done the exact math, but that sounds reasonable. Greater powers
can be up to 40th level in their primary class. Intermediate powers can
be up to 35th level, lesser powers can be up to 30th level, and demipowers
can be up to 25th level. This is all current as of Faiths & Avatars (F&A).
>For example, Oghma in Legends and Lore is possible to take on if your party
>is 20th level each, say, whereas in the Forgotten Realms you would all have to
>be about 30th+ level to even survive. To illustrate, in Faiths and Avatars
>Oghma is 40th level Bard, about 25th level M-User, and about 20th level Fighter
>with 216 hp. In Legends and Lore, he is 12th level Bard and 10th level Fighter
>with about 110hp. I am not entirely complaining about this, although a friend ofmine would like to be able to slay the avatars like, say 10 at a time, RIDICULOUS!, but does this mean that the Avatars in the Legends and Lore should be comparitively powered up?
>
It's up to you. Faiths & Avatars was meant to be consistent with itself and
the Realms. "Officially", none of the Legends & Lore deities exist in the
Realms, so the argument is moot. If you really wanted to add powers in L&L
to the Realms, and you really wanted the PCs to face their avatars, I'd suggest
powering them up.
I do know that L&L is out of print. I believe it will be replaced later this
year by "On Hallowed Ground", a Planescape product, due out later this year.
I imagine the gods have been "powered up" as you say, but I don't know for
sure.
In general, the avatar statistics are meant to give a hint of what facing the
god might be like. Personally, I wouldn't use statistics in my own campaign
except possibly for demipowers. Think of it this way - they are gods, the PCs
are mortals. It's like the major leagues vs. T-ball.
The real "meat" of F&A, IMHO, is the description of the various faiths, their
dogmas, holy days, major centers of worship, affiliated orders, etc.
>If the answer is no, WHY NOT?? and anyway how does this Multispheric Powers business work?, if Ohma is an intermediate power in Legends and Lore and a Greater
>Power in Faiths and Avatars, what is he in the Outlands? He seems to be second
>to Odin generally, so what on earth type of god is Odin???
>
Gods are incredibly powerful beings who have many aspects to their being and
many faces to the world. In the "average" campaign world where the Celtic
pantheon is venerated, Oghma is an intermediate power. This may vary on a few
worlds. In the Realms, where the Celtic pantheon is long forgotten for the
most part, Oghma is a greater power.
In the Outer Planes, IMHO, Oghma is an intermediate or greater (or lesser or
demi-) power depending on the situation. When primarily interacting with beings
from the Realms or involved with the Realms, he has the characteristics of
a greater power. Otherwise, he seems comparatively weaker.
Another possibility, Oghma of the Realms and Oghma of the Celtic pantheon
may never have been or might not currently be the same being.
>As an intermediate power, Oghma has the abilities of one i.e. he can shapechangeinto the largest example of any creature, can use 5 avatars at a time, he is NOTomniscient etc
>
>As a Greater power, Oghma can shapechange into any form of any size (even planetary or larger), can kill at a thought use 10 avatars at a time, is practically omniscient in his spheres of influence and the planes on which he has worshippers AND he can do unlimited things at once (depending on his current form) instead of ONLY 100 .......WHY the sudden drop from INFINITY to a mere (comparatively)
>100??? Infinity is ridiculous.......
>
See above. The face (& hence relative power) Oghma presents to any particular
world varies.
>To come to NonHuman powers, Why would Mystra and Moradin (dwarven power) be bothgreater powers in the outer planes, when Mystra only influences a finite no. of crystal spheres, when Dwarves on every Sphere, EVERYWHERE worship Moradin as their creator???? Surely this amounts to more divine power for Moradin making him more powerful than Mystra.
>
Remember we are looking through the prism of the Realms. From the point of view of an inhabitant of the Realms, Moradin and Mystra are roughly co-equal in
power.
Out in the Planes, the face Moradin presents is again roughly equal to
that of Mystra, even if he can manifest that face in far more locations.
>How can Greater Powers have only 10 avatars when many supervise hundreds, thousands, millions? of worlds and worshippers, how could they possible handle major
>situations on say 11 or more of all these worlds???
>
10 avatars per world is my guess.
>Is Moradin's Avatar powered up from Monster Mythology to match the Human Gods'
>Avatars in the Forgotten Realms? otherwise they could all walk right over him.
>
I would suggest doing so if the power of the avatars is really that important
to your campaign. Again, I think you are far to focused on the gods as big
monsters, and not nearly enough on their faiths - which are almost more
important than the gods.
>If gods have different status in different spheres, do they move from sphere to
>sphere, changing status as they go (via Astral/Ethereal Planes as most cannot
>enter the Prime Material Planes in their true form) In that case, why wouldnt
>Oghma hang around in the Forgotten Realms to keep himself safe from his enemies?
See above. Gods have many faces and are omniscient.
>
>Would gods like Odin be overpowers of certain Crystal Spheres? they are
>generally regarded as creating Earth so why not?
>
No. Odin is the leader of a pantheon. He is not an overpower. Most worlds
do not even realize their overpower exists. Some may not have an overpower.
>Finally, WHY DO GREATER GODS WHO SUPPOSEDLY CREATE WORLDS HAVE TO REST FOR
>ONE TURN (TEN MIN) PER TON OF CREATED OBJECT...?????....DOES THIS MEAN THAT
>THEY RESTED FOR SAY TEN TRILLION MINUTES AFTER CREATING PLANETS..(A PROBABLE
>UNDERESTIMATE)??????
>
Trust me: ALL CAPS is never necessary.
The Greater Gods didn't necessarily create the world. It may have always
existed, it may have been created by an overpower. Each crystal sphere has
its own creation myth.
Some ideas ...
Creating a world may permanently sap a god's strength. For example, Realmspace
was essentially created by Selune & Shar. Shar is currently "just" a greater
power, while Selune has declined all the way to intermediate power status.
The power of gods ebbs and flows.
>This seems like some the TSR people are pulling themselves severely.....
>especially some of those doing the Forgotten Realms Material.
>
I don't really understand this sentence. Care to rephrase? :)
Eric
(co-author of F&A)
fabio milito pagliara
wa...@commerce.uq.oz.au (Nicholas Wade) wrote:
<just keeping the core to answer>
>How can Greater Powers have only 10 avatars when many supervise hundreds, thousands, millions? of worlds and worshippers, how could they possible handle major
>situations on say 11 or more of all these worlds???
here is how I make it work:
yes gods are very powerful extraplanar being, but they have not
created the universe, they have all listed powers only in their
personal extraplanar dimension, they use avatar to get info from the
mortal world (the only place where they can fing new gods so to get
more power), priest serve the same purpose and for this service are
teached spells. how many avatars, not too much or other gods could get
nervous
have fun
fabio milito pagliara
Ki-Rin
Nicholas Wade wrote:
>
> I have bought FAITHS AND AVATARS for the Forgotten Realms
> and I also own a copy of Legends and Lore and Monster Mythology,
> and I am rather surprised at how some of the Gods and Their Avatars
> have been powered up, SAY 3 times as much.
>
> is 20th level each, say, whereas in the Forgotten Realms you would all have to
> be about 30th+ level to even survive. To illustrate, in Faiths and Avatars
> Oghma is 40th level Bard, about 25th level M-User, and about 20th level Fighter
> with 216 hp. In Legends and Lore, he is 12th level Bard and 10th level Fighter
> with about 110hp. I am not entirely complaining about this, although a friend ofmine would like to be able to slay the avatars like, say 10 at
a time, RIDICULO
>
Lore and a Greater
> Power in Faiths and Avatars, what is he in the Outlands? He seems to be second
> to Odin generally, so what on earth type of god is Odin???
>
at a time, he is NO
>
time, is practically
>
> To come to NonHuman powers, Why would Mystra and Moradin (dwarven power) be bothgreater powers in the outer planes, when Mystra only
influences a finite no. of
>
possible handle major
> situations on say 11 or more of all these worlds???
>
> Avatars in the Forgotten Realms? otherwise they could all walk right over him.
>
> sphere, changing status as they go (via Astral/Ethereal Planes as most cannot
> enter the Prime Material Planes in their true form) In that case, why wouldnt
> Oghma hang around in the Forgotten Realms to keep himself safe from his enemies?
>
> generally regarded as creating Earth so why not?
>
> ONE TURN (TEN MIN) PER TON OF CREATED OBJECT...?????....DOES THIS MEAN THAT
> THEY RESTED FOR SAY TEN TRILLION MINUTES AFTER CREATING PLANETS..(A PROBABLE
> UNDERESTIMATE)??????
>
> especially some of those doing the Forgotten Realms Material.
>
> --
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> | Nicholas Wade, Merlin of the circle of seven |
> | s33...@student.uq.edu.au or wa...@valinor.commerce.uq.edu.au |
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Basically they got tired of every high level character aspiring to kick
diety ass. Unless you have a total monty-haul campaign no reasonably
played character should be capable of killing avatars... Even Elminster
(a total munchkin) a 29th level mage/with a thief/fighter skills and
fighter hits points (96 hp!), several permanant spells on him that no
player is allowed, and lots of special abilities granted by Mystra as
one of her "chosen" (see Seven Sisters) could barely handle the avatar
of Bane (and he wasn't so powerful then as he would be with the newer
stats). Actually even then an avatar of a greater god should have
cleaned the old sage's clock!