Unseen Servant Movement

[Harold Groot]

In your campaigns, how does an UNSEEN SERVANT move? Does this
"shapeless force" essentially walk, and thus need a floor (or
equivalent) to "stand" upon? Can it walk upon water? Could it
"climb" a tree? Can it "swim" through water? Can it move freely
through the air (as long as it stays in range if the caster, of
course)? How does your group play it?


Unseen Servant
Conjuration (Creation)
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One invisible, mindless, shapeless servant
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
An unseen servant is an invisible, mindless, shapeless force that
performs simple tasks at your command. It can run and fetch things,
open unstuck doors, and hold chairs, as well as clean and mend. The
servant can perform only one activity at a time, but it repeats the
same activity over and over again if told to do so as long as you
remain within range. It can open only normal doors, drawers, lids, and
the like. It has an effective Strength score of 2 (so it can lift 20
pounds or drag 100 pounds). It can trigger traps and such, but it can
exert only 20 pounds of force, which is not enough to activate certain
pressure plates and other devices. It can’t perform any task that
requires a skill check with a DC higher than 10 or that requires a
check using a skill that can’t be used untrained. Its speed is 15
feet.
The servant cannot attack in any way; it is never allowed an attack
roll. It cannot be killed, but it dissipates if it takes 6 points of
damage from area attacks. (It gets no saves against attacks.) If you
attempt to send it beyond the spell’s range (measured from your
current position), the servant ceases to exist.
Material Component: A piece of string and a bit of wood.

[David Lamb]

On 21/11/2012 12:19 AM, Harold Groot wrote:
> In your campaigns, how does an UNSEEN SERVANT move? Does this
> "shapeless force" essentially walk, and thus need a floor (or
> equivalent) to "stand" upon? Can it walk upon water? Could it
> "climb" a tree? Can it "swim" through water? Can it move freely
> through the air (as long as it stays in range if the caster, of
> course)? How does your group play it?

I don't think we used it often enough to have to decide explicitly. I
have a mental image of a "force" that acts like a normal solid creature
with regards to where it can go, and thus needs a floor.

[Joanna Rowland Stuart]

In article <50ab7898...@news.west.earthlink.net>,

que...@infionline.net (Harold Groot) wrote:

> In your campaigns, how does an UNSEEN SERVANT move? Does this
> "shapeless force" essentially walk, and thus need a floo

From RAW

> Effect: One invisible, mindless, shapeless servant

Shapeless implies it has no physical form. It's an evocation of pure
immaterial force, able to affect material objects in small ways. It can
of course be dispelled by Dispel Magic or similar incantations. It cannot
be struck with weapons (because it has no physical form), but only
disrupted by area attacks doing 6 points of damage or more. The area
attack doesn't have to be magical, but it would have to be forceful (e.g.
exploding barrels of naptha). Saturating an area with missiles (magical
or non-magical) would be just as ineffective as melee weapons would.

Because of this, it doesn't need a surface on which to walk. It could act
on any object within spell range (25' + (5' per 2 caster levels)) - even
if that object was across a chasm or attached to the ceiling of a room.

Because it can trigger traps with a trigger force of 20lbs or less, the
spell description implies that it can trigger those traps from within
(e.g. it doesn't need to actually use lock picks to affect the inner
working of a poison dart trap in a lock).

That further implies that it is not constrained by material barriers - it
could open a window or a door for its caster who is standing outside,
from the inside, by turning the catch or the key or the handle.

> It can’t perform any task that
> requires a skill check with a DC higher than 10 or that requires a
> check using a skill that can’t be used untrained.

Cheers
JOanna

[Alcore]

On Wednesday, November 21, 2012 7:22:41 AM UTC-6, David Lamb wrote:
[snip]

> I have a mental image of a "force" that acts like a normal solid
> creature with regards to where it can go, and thus needs a floor.

I've been chewing it over in my head... As with prior comment, it
doesn't come up often enough in my game to have ever really needed
and answer.

A "shapeless force"... It does however have a specific location
and a movement speed which is not noted as being a "fly" speed.

So, I'd go with the idea that it needs a surface to move along.
It might, however, be able to use surfaces as "floors" that no
solid normal material being would be able to cross, such as flat
sheet of parchment, or very thin ice. Basically I'd let if
"climb" any surface that has a climb skill difficulty DC of 10 or
less.

So a rope across a chasm wouldn't work, because it requires a
more difficult balance check than 10 to stay on top. But a
taught sheet of canvas that can bear as much as a few ounces of
weight, would be no big deal... Unless the Servant was trying
to carry something... In which case the surface would have to
be able to support that weight without problems.

I don't think I'd let it cross water... even when not carrying
anything.

[Loren Pechtel]

On Wed, 21 Nov 2012 07:49:26 -0800 (PST), Alcore <alc...@uurth.com>
wrote:

>So, I'd go with the idea that it needs a surface to move along.
>It might, however, be able to use surfaces as "floors" that no
>solid normal material being would be able to cross, such as flat
>sheet of parchment, or very thin ice. Basically I'd let if
>"climb" any surface that has a climb skill difficulty DC of 10 or
>less.
>
>So a rope across a chasm wouldn't work, because it requires a
>more difficult balance check than 10 to stay on top. But a
>taught sheet of canvas that can bear as much as a few ounces of
>weight, would be no big deal... Unless the Servant was trying
>to carry something... In which case the surface would have to
>be able to support that weight without problems.
>
>I don't think I'd let it cross water... even when not carrying
>anything.

My take--it weighs nothing, but the weight of whatever it's carrying
is applied to the surface. It can't cross anything that can't bear
the weight.

Thus unburdened it can cross the water or the sheet of parchment.

[Jim Davies]

On the grave of que...@infionline.net (Harold Groot) is inscribed:

>In your campaigns, how does an UNSEEN SERVANT move? Does this
>"shapeless force" essentially walk, and thus need a floor (or
>equivalent) to "stand" upon? Can it walk upon water? Could it
>"climb" a tree? Can it "swim" through water? Can it move freely
>through the air (as long as it stays in range if the caster, of
>course)? How does your group play it?

It's a rather unhelpful description, essentially the same in 1e, 2e,
3e and PF. Not only does it not say how it moves (except that "It can
run and fetch things"), it doesn't say how big it is. Because it's
shapeless and can't be hit by anything other than an area attack, I
infer that it's meant to be an amorphous field of point forces that
exists throughout the whole volume of the range (within spell effect).

I suggest that "It can run and fetch things" is a bit of loose
language rather than a literal description of how it gets about. You
might try the FAQ.

--
Jim

http://www.aaargh.org

[Jim Davies]

On the grave of Jim Davies <j...@aaargh.NoBleedinSpam.org> is
inscribed:

>On the grave of que...@infionline.net (Harold Groot) is inscribed:
>
>>In your campaigns, how does an UNSEEN SERVANT move? Does this
>>"shapeless force" essentially walk, and thus need a floor (or
>>equivalent) to "stand" upon? Can it walk upon water? Could it
>>"climb" a tree? Can it "swim" through water? Can it move freely
>>through the air (as long as it stays in range if the caster, of
>>course)? How does your group play it?
>
>It's a rather unhelpful description, essentially the same in 1e, 2e,
>3e and PF.

Actually, I missed this bit that PF adds to the end:

This servant cannot fly, climb, or even swim (though it can walk on
water). Its base speed is 15 feet.

But that's no help in 3e.

--
Jim

http://www.aaargh.org

[Harold Groot]

>Jim

First, let me thank everyone for their opinions. I see that there is a
clear split, with some people thinking one way and some people the
other. That in itself was a bit surprising - because I had played in
quite a few groups over the years, and there was no hint of a second
interpretation through all of them - until I joined my current group.
So (because of my experience) it SEEMED another one of those cases
where I wanted to turn to the DM and say "This must be considered one
of your House Rules, because everyone I've ever played with for 30+
years plays it the other way." But that's why I come to places like
this to get more opinions - "my experience" is still limited to a
dozen or so groups (with varying membership over time), and thus is
still a very small sample from the entire world of D&D.

My own experience matches up reasonably closely with Joanna's - that
this is a field of force that can move anywhere within the range of
the spell. It does not have a body, it does not weigh anything, it
does not stand on anything - you can send it up to the ceiling or down
a well with no trouble.

My current DM, though, has apparently always played with the other
interpretation throughout all the various groups HE has ever played
with. It essentially walks. It has a "Movement" rate, and that is a
Term Of Art in 3E that means walking. It doesn't have a "Fly Speed" or
a "Swim Speed" or a "Climb speed", so it can't do any of those things.
(Of course, the spell description was pretty consistent and it goes
well back before that became a Term Of Art.)

I generally stick to the direct sources when they are available, and
nothing in the PH from 1E or 2E or 3E was clarifying anything. Tonight
it occurred to me to go to a slightly different source (still Official
AFAICT), and I found something that sheds light on this (and also on
the question I asked a while back about a PERMANENT UNSEEN SERVANT).

In THE WIZARD'S SPELL COMPENDIUM they collected and organized all the
spells in 1E/2E. While most are presented just "as is", there are a
few spells that contain addition text. This is presented with a grey
background instead of a white background. You might just call it
"additional material". In some cases it gives a brief set of stats for
a monster that can be summoned by a spell. In other cases it gives
options the DM can use (which are clearly marked AS options). And in
still other cases, nothing at all is indicated. UNSEEN SERVANT is in
the last category.

Volume 4 of the Wizard's Spell Compendium, page 972, gives the UNSEEN
SERVANT spell. At the end (after even the Notes section, which says
that as far as rarity goes it is a "common spell"), there is one of
those Grey Background sections that goes like this:

"The UNSEEN SERVANT does not have any senses or powers of
reason. It is incapable of any action except following its
instructions to the letter. Thus, while it can be sent to the bottom
of a pool to grab whatever objects it encounters, it cannot be
directed to grab any gems or coins it might find.
A PERMANENT UNSEEN SERVANT always hovers within 30 feet of the
caster. If destroyed, it reforms in 2d10 rounds."

So - in 1E/2E it can explicitly go through water. It also "hovers",
which implies being in mid-air (i.e. not needing a surface). The
wording in 3E is similar enough that I would believe that they did not
intend to change that - but I would not assert that as being proven.
(The changed wording in PF suggests to me a deliberate change rather
than "Explaining more clearly something that was always the rule" -
but again, that's not proven. Maybe the PF guys were in the "It's
always had to walk on a surface" camp and they thought they were just
clarifying things.)

The bit about having no senses, however, seems hard to reconcile with
the servant being able to mend something, or even bring up "whatever
objects it encounters". Both of those activities would seem to REQUIRE
some rudimentary senses. How can it mend a rip in your sleeve if it
can't see or feel or otherwise locate the tear or feel the needle and
thread? How can it grab something it has "encountered" if it has no
sense of sight or feeling? How can it do pretty much ANYTHING? How
can it carry something somewhere, open a door or hold a chair if it
can't sense where they are? Can it lay it lay a fire if it can't
sense the pile of firewood or where the fireplace is? How can it
safely CLEAN an area?

So I think they are going after something slightly different here. I
think that it might be able to act on sensory data YOU have. If you
point to a door and tell it "open that door", it registers the door
because YOU have seen it (and made the decision about what to do). But
if there are 1000 pieces of gravel at the bottom of a well, with dirty
water preventing the caster from seeing what is there, you can't tell
it "bring up coins and gems" because it can't tell the difference
between an unseen (by the caster) gem and an unseen piece of gravel.
If the water was CLEAR, however, and the caster can SEE the gems, the
caster could say "Bring up that gem I'm pointing to." Since it's clear
in the caster's mind, the instruction can be carried out by the UNSEEN
SERVANT. This would often prevent it from carrying out instructions
like "go to the other side of this door and open it" since it does not
(by itself) sense where the doorknob, lever or other latching/locking
device is. But maybe that would work if the party had just come from
the other side of the door and the caster KNEW where the doorknob was.

Still, in 3E they talk about it being able to do things up to DC 10 as
long as they require no training. Finding an obvious mechanism to open
a door would seem to be something it should be able to do....

So - I don't want to take the "senses" stuff in the grey background
area as being literally true, but I still want to use the grey
background stuff to say that TSR (or at least the editor of WSC)
thought it was a very mobile force that can move anywhere in spell
range (though the air, through water, etc. - unless there is something
that would stop "force" effects). Talk about wanting my cake and
eating it too... Anyway, I don't think an UNSEEN SERVANT can go
through solid stone or a WALL OF FORCE, for example. I think you need
what 3E calls "Line Of Effect" (but of course they weren't using that
in 1E/2E, so maybe you CAN do that in a 1E/2E game). If "the strength
needed to carry 20 pounds" isn't enough to get through a solid
barrier, I think the barrier stops it.

Meanwhile, the last bit from the grey background stuff is clearly
where I had gotten the idea that a PERMANENT UNSEEN SERVANT would
reform if destroyed. So the party as a whole would not be limited to
the movement rate of the UNSEEN SERVANT as long as they were willing
to wait a few minutes for it to reform when they needed it. (Without
this aspect, creating a PUS would simply be throwing away XP for
essentially nothing since it would be out of range VERY quickly in
standard dungeon play.)

[Nicole Massey]

"Harold Groot" <que...@infionline.net> wrote in message
news:50adc15e...@news.west.earthlink.net...

I used the first edition spell as the basis for a whole slew of
bard/minstrel spells (I use the term minstrel to designate classes of
musician adventurers that don't do the prior class thing the bards do in
first edition) and here's what I used as my thinking on it.
Unseen servants are basically force manifestations of the caster's knowledge
and will. They can't do anything the caster can't do in terms of skills,
though they can do more fine motor actions like moving the catch in a door.
They perform any actions directed at the caster's ability, (a consideration
when you're creating spectral musicians to accompany the bard or minstrel)
and they can go anywere unobstructed (So the smallest hole will let them
through to somewhere else) if the caster is familiar with it. The unseen
servant name is just a colorful name for the result, probably created to
make those who don't know how the spell works impressed with the caster's
power and summoning ability. Some of the higher level spectral energy fields
on the bard and minstrel list can do things the lower level version can't,
like sing, but they're still calling on the caster's knowledge pool to do
anything.

[Justisaur]

On Nov 21, 11:25 pm, ques...@infionline.net (Harold Groot) wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 01:34:35 +0000, Jim Davies
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <j...@aaargh.NoBleedinSpam.org> wrote:
> >On the grave of Jim Davies <j...@aaargh.NoBleedinSpam.org> is
> >inscribed:
>

> >>On the grave of ques...@infionline.net (Harold Groot) is inscribed:

I usually think of it as an advanced programmable mage hand with fine
control. You have to be able to tell it exactly what and how to do
something. If you don't have knowledge of something it can't do it.

- Justisaur

[tussock]

Harold Groot wrote:

> In your campaigns, how does an UNSEEN SERVANT move?

At the command of the caster, always assumed to be grounded.

As first edition says:
> The unseen servant is a non-visible valet, a butler to step and fetch,
> open doors and hold chairs, as well as to clean and mend. The spell
> creates a farce which is not strong, but which obeys the command of the
> magic-user.

A butler, a valet. /Obeys/ commands. You know, like a /person/, just in
the form of a magical force prone to fireballing.

> The material components of the spell are a piece of string and a bit of
> wood.

NB: material components /can/ be used to divine intent. It's a
marionette, a puppet for you to direct. Dance, little Mary, dance.
Unfortunately for the flying crowd, this one's a butler, not a gargoyle.

Having said that, the flying one that can pull things from poisoned
wells for you is a useful spell to have on one's list, unlike my
interpretation which can barely open doors, so I think I'll switch to it.

--
tussock

[Ubiquitous]

que...@infionline.net wrote:

>In your campaigns, how does an UNSEEN SERVANT move? Does this
>"shapeless force" essentially walk, and thus need a floor (or
>equivalent) to "stand" upon? Can it walk upon water? Could it
>"climb" a tree? Can it "swim" through water? Can it move freely
>through the air (as long as it stays in range if the caster, of
>course)? How does your group play it?

I can't say it's ever come up in the decades I've played D&D, but I
thought it was a more advanced Magic Fingers spell and thus could float
for short distances, great for fetching books from libraries with very
tall shalves and that kind of stuff.

--
"Re-electing Obama is like backing The Titanic up and hitting the iceberg
a second time."

[Harold Groot]

OK, a follow-up. I managed to find an official 3.5E source that
states that an UNSEEN SERVANT can move through the air.

Complete Champion, page 63, under the Trickery Devotion (Domain) feat.
This feat makes it pretty clear that a 3.5E UNSEEN SERVANT can move
through the air.

===================================================================================================================
TRICKERY DEVOTION [DOMAIN]

You project a simulacrum of yourself that can perform limited tasks.

Benefit: Once per day as a standard action, you can create an exact
duplicate of yourself up to 30 feet away. You can control this
simulacrum's movements as a free action. The image becomes more "real"
as you advance in level. This ability is usable up to a maximum of 1
minute per level each day.

The simulacrum combines the characteristics of the silent image (PH
279) and unseen servant (PH 297) spells. Its hit points are equal to 6
+ your character level. It ignores terrain effects and moves like an
unseen servant, making no noise in the process, though it makes normal
motions while traveling. If you have a fly speed, the image appears to
fly when not in contact with the ground; otherwise, it walks on open
air. You can do anything with this image that you could do with the
unseen servant spell and are under the same limitations....

=======================================================================================

SO, on top of the historical 2E evidence, you might think that this
would be the decisive piece of evidence to decide what the rules are
for an UNSEEN SERVANT in 3.5E. Nope - at least, not in our game.

In most of the cases where I have disagreed with out DM, I could at
least see that he was TRYING to get it right, and that he had at least
SOME support for his position. Sadly, that is not the case here.

In this case he says (to paraphrase) "I don't like Complete Champions,
it has too many overpowered feats and abilities. Therefore, the
authors MUST have added to the abilities of the PH version of the
UNSEEN SERVANT as well. A PH UNSEEN SERVANT is still limited to travel
on the ground, and it is only the SIMULACRUM in this feat that can
move through the air. As for it "moving like an UNSEEN SERVANT" and
having "the same restrictions" while they say it can move "when not in
contact with the ground" - they must have meant for that to only
apply to the movement RATE of 15."

Most of the time I think he tries earnestly to Get It Right. But in
this case it seems VERY clear that it's a case of "My mind is made up,
don't confuse me with facts."

In light of both the 2E and 3.5E evidence, I had told him that I would
be happy to play with his "ground-limited" UNSEEN SERVANTS if he would
only label that rule as a House Rule. But he is DETERMINED to not
only have it his way, but to have it acknowledged as being RAW. No
matter HOW tortuously he has to twist things, or read something into a
sentence that simply isn't there.

So for the first time in a long time, my reaction is simple "Asshole".

Sigh. I keep telling myself "It's only a game...", but this one was
harder than normal.