Medieval General Store?
Elwin
used in an AD&D town or village setting. I have a hard time
believing that such a commercial enterprise existed back then. Am
I way off base here? Didn't the market place serve as the
medieval "General Store"? I don't believe that the necessary
goods distribution systems were in place back then to supply a
village GS. If you wanted something specific then I thought
usually you had to go visit an artisan or tradesman.
Thanks.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
john v verkuilen
>I'm surprised by how often I see the concept of a "General Store"
>used in an AD&D town or village setting. I have a hard time
>believing that such a commercial enterprise existed back then. Am
>I way off base here? Didn't the market place serve as the
>medieval "General Store"? I don't believe that the necessary
>goods distribution systems were in place back then to supply a
>village GS. If you wanted something specific then I thought
>usually you had to go visit an artisan or tradesman.
Well you're right, the market served that purpose and you went to various
places. But of course who is to say that things have to be "authentically
Medieval?" Lots of things in the usual AD&D worlds differ from real Medieval
practice. I do tend to eliminate the general store, however. No such animal
would exist without industry backing it up.
Jay
--
J. Verkuilen ja...@uiuc.edu
A legal King Crimson bootleg from the Aug. 2-4, 1996, Mexico City shows:
http://drm.goestoeleven.com/wm/dgm/default.htm.
Dave Brohman
Elwin wrote:
>
> I'm surprised by how often I see the concept of a "General Store"
> used in an AD&D town or village setting. I have a hard time
> believing that such a commercial enterprise existed back then. Am
> I way off base here? Didn't the market place serve as the
> medieval "General Store"? I don't believe that the necessary
> goods distribution systems were in place back then to supply a
> village GS. If you wanted something specific then I thought
> usually you had to go visit an artisan or tradesman.
This is one of the many modern elements that exist in D&D (along with
things like restaurants, coin-based economics and hygiene). The real
middle ages were vastly different from the modern world, so much so
that it would be virtually impossible to run a truly accurate medieval
game. The language barrier alone would be totally incongruous; our
modern English is vastly different than old and middle english, and
contains many hundreds, if not thousands, of words that they simply
did not have. No living person can possibly but him or herself in a
truly medieval mindset as it truly was an alien society to ours.
So the long and short of it is no, the "general store" is not
really historical, so scrap it if you don't like it.
--
Please be aware that if your name is changed due to it being obviously
offensive, any corpses owned by you will not be lootable, and no
reimbursements will be given.
- from the Everquest Website
Dave Brohman
Peter Knutsen wrote:
<SNIP>
> When it comes to the General Store, having one in a village or
> small town is silly, that's true (although I have most inns
> selling low-quality travelling equipment at high prices. Stuff
> like saddles, torches, rations. The high price and low quality
> is because the number of sales per time unit is small). But in
> a middle-size town, having a market that goes all day, six days
> a week, is very labour-intensive. Setting up one general store
> only requires the constant attention of 1-2 persons, while a
> market consists of at least a dozen booths, often many more.
>
> My impression is that a medieval market was something that
> happened at specific times, such as "every monday". If you
> needed to buy something, and it was tuesday, you just had to
> wait six days, before the market opened. Food markets might
> have been two or three times a week, lasting maybe 4-6 hours
> per day. But I can't visualize a market that is open from 7 AM
> to 11 PM.
Well, yes and no. Certain businesses, like butchers, bakers, smiths,
etc. would be active and open every day of the week, dawn till dusk,
save for holy days.
Peter Knutsen
john v verkuilen wrote:
>
> Elwin <shaezyra...@yahoo.com.invalid> writes:
>
> >I'm surprised by how often I see the concept of a "General Store"
> >used in an AD&D town or village setting. I have a hard time
> >believing that such a commercial enterprise existed back then. Am
> >I way off base here? Didn't the market place serve as the
> >medieval "General Store"? I don't believe that the necessary
> >goods distribution systems were in place back then to supply a
> >village GS. If you wanted something specific then I thought
> >usually you had to go visit an artisan or tradesman.
>
> Well you're right, the market served that purpose and you went to various
> places. But of course who is to say that things have to be "authentically
> Medieval?" Lots of things in the usual AD&D worlds differ from real Medieval
> practice. I do tend to eliminate the general store, however. No such animal
> would exist without industry backing it up.
I try to go for a very medieval atmosphere. One reason is that I
play an alternate-history campaign (medieval Europe with magic
that works), but another is that I belief that aiming for medieval
tendencies and philosophies, rather than modern ones, is good if
you want much potential for conflict. My favourite example is the
typical fantasy-world where different religions exists side by side,
just as they do in Copenhagen or Los Angeles. But the very notion
of being "inclusive", the "anything goes"-attitude, didn't exist
in medieval Europe. The purpose of PC (Political Correctness) is
to reduce friction, because friction leads to conflict. Having
PC in our real everyday world might be a good thing (although I'm
not sure), but having PC in a gaming world sure isn't, because you
want conflict, don't you? Much potential conclict, potential for
varied conflict? My campaign world is stuffed with religious
conflict, with different faiths trying to conquer new territories
by various means (violence, trickery, magic, commerce). One gamer
out of a thousand might have problems dealing with religous
conflict, but for the rest of us, the added potential for conflict
is fun and fascinating.
When it comes to the General Store, having one in a village or
small town is silly, that's true (although I have most inns
selling low-quality travelling equipment at high prices. Stuff
like saddles, torches, rations. The high price and low quality
is because the number of sales per time unit is small). But in
a middle-size town, having a market that goes all day, six days
a week, is very labour-intensive. Setting up one general store
only requires the constant attention of 1-2 persons, while a
market consists of at least a dozen booths, often many more.
My impression is that a medieval market was something that
happened at specific times, such as "every monday". If you
needed to buy something, and it was tuesday, you just had to
wait six days, before the market opened. Food markets might
have been two or three times a week, lasting maybe 4-6 hours
per day. But I can't visualize a market that is open from 7 AM
to 11 PM.
> Jay
--
Peter Knutsen
Duane Vanderpol
news:38E53290...@knutsen.dk...
>
>
> john v verkuilen wrote:
> >
> > Elwin <shaezyra...@yahoo.com.invalid> writes:
> >
> > >I'm surprised by how often I see the concept of a "General Store"
> > >used in an AD&D town or village setting. I have a hard time
> > >believing that such a commercial enterprise existed back then. Am
> > >I way off base here? Didn't the market place serve as the
> > >medieval "General Store"? I don't believe that the necessary
> > >goods distribution systems were in place back then to supply a
> > >village GS. If you wanted something specific then I thought
> > >usually you had to go visit an artisan or tradesman.
> >
> > Well you're right, the market served that purpose and you went to
various
> > places. But of course who is to say that things have to be
"authentically
> > Medieval?" Lots of things in the usual AD&D worlds differ from real
Medieval
> > practice. I do tend to eliminate the general store, however. No such
animal
> > would exist without industry backing it up.
While it's true that in OUR world a general goods approach to purveying
merchandise clearly did not exist until way, Way after the Medieval era I
gleefully point out to you that D&D is not now, nor has it ever been
Medieval. Okay, that's not exactly true but Medieval times were not exactly
a fun-conducive environment. This was a time in European history where you
started out on the bottom rung, in the position of serf. This was not an
easy job, but if you worked hard, followed the rules, did not complain and
were a "team player," after a certain period of time, you fell off the
bottom rung and died. (Thanks to Dave Barry). If you want to _really_ play
Medieval you are either nobility (and how much fun is it for EVERY
character, EVERY time, to be nobility?) or you're a serf who will die at the
age of 25 from a life of body-destroying manual labor, disease, and general
hardship.
In Medieval times there really was no middle class. In D&D there is
almost always a significant middle class of shopkeepers, guild artisans and
merchants. I see no reason why a General Store should be considered to be
in any way inauthentic in a fantasy environment that we call Medieval only
because it has lots of the technological trappings yet only a passing
aquaintance with the political and sociological oppression that existed.
> I try to go for a very medieval atmosphere. One reason is that I
> play an alternate-history campaign (medieval Europe with magic
> that works), but another is that I belief that aiming for medieval
> tendencies and philosophies, rather than modern ones, is good if
> you want much potential for conflict. My favourite example is the
> typical fantasy-world where different religions exists side by side,
> just as they do in Copenhagen or Los Angeles. But the very notion
> of being "inclusive", the "anything goes"-attitude, didn't exist
> in medieval Europe.
True, but then in Medieval Europe 99% of the people never went further
than a half days walk from their front door. Religions were also
monotheistic whereas I can count on one hand the number of campaigns I've
heard of in the last 20 years that weren't using one or more pantheons of
deities. As soon as you add a dragons and talking trees and pointy-eared
interior decorators, any concern you may still have for "authenticity" is...
history. :-)
> The purpose of PC (Political Correctness) is
> to reduce friction, because friction leads to conflict. Having
> PC in our real everyday world might be a good thing (although I'm
> not sure), but having PC in a gaming world sure isn't, because you
> want conflict, don't you?
Stepping off topic for a moment, Charlton Heston just recently gave the
most elegant and accurate definition of political correctness you could ask
for: "Political correctness is tyranny with manners." If memory serves,
"politically correct" is a term born of such fine men as Stalin (the world's
current record holder for mass murder) and Lenin (whom we can thank for
foisting Communism upon an unsuspecting world - a form of government
responsible for more deaths than the totals from every war since the dawn of
time). But that's all flame war material. Back to the subject at hand.
As for conflict there is a wide variety of conflict you can take
advantage of without a moment's thought to political correctness ranging
from a thief who picks your pocket, to the stereotypical orcs raiding farms
from their dungeon lair, to world-spanning wars between nations and planes
of existence. The potential for conflict is everywhere. The trick is
knowing what source of conflict would be interesting for the characters to
get caught up in.
> Much potential conclict, potential for
> varied conflict? My campaign world is stuffed with religious
> conflict, with different faiths trying to conquer new territories
> by various means (violence, trickery, magic, commerce). One gamer
> out of a thousand might have problems dealing with religous
> conflict, but for the rest of us, the added potential for conflict
> is fun and fascinating.
Picture a setting like a large city which may tolerate a wide selection
of religions that all things being equal ought to be at each others throats.
They probably are! Or should be. Just because it's not spilling into the
streets at noon in full view of the citizenry doesn't mean there isn't
mortal conflict taking place at night, out of sight, or at reduced levels of
violence.
> When it comes to the General Store, having one in a village or
> small town is silly, that's true (although I have most inns
> selling low-quality travelling equipment at high prices.
Not silly (as noted above) but "too easy" might be a good description.
Having a general store EVERYWHERE is sort of a lazy-arsed approach. It's
far more fun and interesting for PC's NOT to be able to run down to the D&D
equivalent of Safeway, True Value Hardware, or 7-11 to pick up anything that
happens to appear in the equipment list in the PH. When they're in a
small-town and adventure lays siege to the place let them get saddles from a
farmer, a barrel of oil by purchasing a dozens of lamps from dozens of
people, a new sword by schlepping two days to a _larger_ town where a
blacksmith _might_ have one he could sell.
I tend to follow a pattern similar to yours. Big cities (like say
Waterdeep) will probably have general stores, individual artisans with their
own shops, visiting merchant caravans, AND a public market. A mid-size town
may have one or two of those possiblities. A small town, likely has only
one or two individuals who may have a piece or two of the equipment needed -
and they may or may not be disposed to selling it as it's likely to be in
use, not waiting to be purchased by passers-by.
> Stuff
> like saddles, torches, rations. The high price and low quality
> is because the number of sales per time unit is small). But in
> a middle-size town, having a market that goes all day, six days
> a week, is very labour-intensive. Setting up one general store
> only requires the constant attention of 1-2 persons, while a
> market consists of at least a dozen booths, often many more.
Which brings up the fact that the natural assumption of a middle class
of merchants and shopkeeps makes such things not just possible but perhaps
even probable.
> My impression is that a medieval market was something that
> happened at specific times, such as "every monday". If you
> needed to buy something, and it was tuesday, you just had to
> wait six days, before the market opened. Food markets might
> have been two or three times a week, lasting maybe 4-6 hours
> per day. But I can't visualize a market that is open from 7 AM
> to 11 PM.
Again, the realistic Medieval European level of trade and consumerism is
almost nil. Each locality was by and large self-contained and self-reliant.
Anything the community needed was generally manufactured in the community
with surpluses being taken up by the local bigwigs not traded on down the
road in the next castle or kingdom.
A truly Medieval D&D game setting in regards to religious attitudes,
trade and business, featuring accurate politics, sociology and so on is
possible and with a good DM even fun - but it's far from typical and hard to
pull off when almost everyone thinks in terms much closer to the Renaissance
era or even a modern setting simply gussied up with Medieval trappings.
--
Duane VanderPol
http://home.earthlink.net/~duanevp
"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
- Thomas Watson, IBM chairman, 1943
Beau Yarbrough
Elwin <shaezyra...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
> I'm surprised by how often I see the concept of a "General Store"
> used in an AD&D town or village setting. I have a hard time
> believing that such a commercial enterprise existed back then. Am
> I way off base here? Didn't the market place serve as the
> medieval "General Store"? I don't believe that the necessary
> goods distribution systems were in place back then to supply a
> village GS. If you wanted something specific then I thought
> usually you had to go visit an artisan or tradesman.
You're right. But, of course, that's in a no-magic/technology world.
AD&D magic and the background magical environment mean that, in many
cases, things would be a bit more advanced than that.
And given how many AD&D games take place in "frontier" regions that have
to accomodate traders, explorers and, of course, adventurers, the
concept of a general store makes economic sense.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Varsil Savai
<dua...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Peter Knutsen <pe...@knutsen.dk> wrote in message
>news:38E53290...@knutsen.dk...
>>
>>
>> john v verkuilen wrote:
>> >
>> > Elwin <shaezyra...@yahoo.com.invalid> writes:
<snip>
>> The purpose of PC (Political Correctness) is
>> to reduce friction, because friction leads to conflict. Having
>> PC in our real everyday world might be a good thing (although I'm
>> not sure), but having PC in a gaming world sure isn't, because you
>> want conflict, don't you?
>
> Stepping off topic for a moment, Charlton Heston just recently gave the
>most elegant and accurate definition of political correctness you could ask
>for: "Political correctness is tyranny with manners." If memory serves,
>"politically correct" is a term born of such fine men as Stalin (the world's
>current record holder for mass murder) and Lenin (whom we can thank for
>foisting Communism upon an unsuspecting world - a form of government
>responsible for more deaths than the totals from every war since the dawn of
>time). But that's all flame war material. Back to the subject at hand.
> As for conflict there is a wide variety of conflict you can take
>advantage of without a moment's thought to political correctness ranging
>from a thief who picks your pocket, to the stereotypical orcs raiding farms
>from their dungeon lair, to world-spanning wars between nations and planes
>of existence. The potential for conflict is everywhere. The trick is
>knowing what source of conflict would be interesting for the characters to
>get caught up in.
<snip>
I'm feeling slothful atm. Consider yourself flamed... :)
I have erected a spamblocker. Simply remove the
#$% characters if you feel the need to email me.
gent...@remove.btinternet.com
<shaezyra...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>medieval "General Store"? I don't believe that the necessary
>goods distribution systems were in place back then to supply a
>village GS. If you wanted something specific then I thought
>usually you had to go visit an artisan or tradesman.
Well this all depends of how much the general economy and society of a
'medieval' world would be effected by the introduction of Magic and
clerical Healing abilities. Also throw in magical monsters/items such
as flying carpets and who knows what kind of distribution network
you'll have come up with.
gent
PJS
Elwin wrote in message <1e818766...@usw-ex0101-005.remarq.com>...
>I'm surprised by how often I see the concept of a "General Store"
>used in an AD&D town or village setting. I have a hard time
>believing that such a commercial enterprise existed back then. Am
>I way off base here? Didn't the market place serve as the
>goods distribution systems were in place back then to supply a
>village GS. If you wanted something specific then I thought
>usually you had to go visit an artisan or tradesman.
You're right. Too many D&D "mediaeval" villages amount to "Ye Springfielde".
--
Will the last person to be eaten
by the Fnord please turn the light out?
PJS
>merchandise clearly did not exist until way, Way after the Medieval era I
>gleefully point out to you that D&D is not now, nor has it ever been
>Medieval. Okay, that's not exactly true but Medieval times were not
exactly
>a fun-conducive environment. This was a time in European history where you
>started out on the bottom rung, in the position of serf. This was not an
>easy job, but if you worked hard, followed the rules, did not complain and
>were a "team player," after a certain period of time, you fell off the
>bottom rung and died. (Thanks to Dave Barry). If you want to _really_
play
>Medieval you are either nobility (and how much fun is it for EVERY
>character, EVERY time, to be nobility?)
So you'd be instantly bored playing Pendragon then?
------------
or you're a serf who will die at the
>age of 25 from a life of body-destroying manual labor, disease, and general
>hardship.
> In Medieval times there really was no middle class. In D&D there is
>almost always a significant middle class of shopkeepers, guild artisans and
>merchants. I see no reason why a General Store should be considered to be
>in any way inauthentic in a fantasy environment that we call Medieval only
>because it has lots of the technological trappings yet only a passing
>aquaintance with the political and sociological oppression that existed.
Hmm... do you know the average working day for the miserable serf was 3-4
hours compared to between 8 and "all God sends" under wonderful capitalism?
-----------
> True, but then in Medieval Europe 99% of the people never went further
>than a half days walk from their front door. Religions were also
>monotheistic whereas I can count on one hand the number of campaigns I've
>heard of in the last 20 years that weren't using one or more pantheons of
>deities. As soon as you add a dragons and talking trees and pointy-eared
>interior decorators, any concern you may still have for "authenticity"
is...
>history. :-)
Ah, the good old "er, well, it's magic!" defence...
------------
>> The purpose of PC (Political Correctness) is
>> to reduce friction, because friction leads to conflict. Having
>> PC in our real everyday world might be a good thing (although I'm
>> not sure), but having PC in a gaming world sure isn't, because you
>> want conflict, don't you?
Probably, although Everway comes close at times.
------------
> Stepping off topic for a moment, Charlton Heston just recently gave the
>most elegant and accurate definition of political correctness you could ask
>for: "Political correctness is tyranny with manners." If memory serves,
>"politically correct" is a term born of such fine men as Stalin
Ah, bollocks. Stalin my arse. Sounds to me like what you know about the man
could be written on the back of postage stamp. The term "Political
Correctness" was invented by an American academic (whose name escapes me
just now) whose sympathies were definitely on the Left, who was saying "Hang
on, now, being against racism, sexism and other forms of discrimination is
fine, but now things are starting to get a bit silly..." Nowadays, the term
is used as a magic word by reactionaries, much as "Communist" or "Witch"
were used in times past, to suppress progressive thought.
-----------
(the world's
>current record holder for mass murder) and Lenin (whom we can thank for
>foisting Communism upon an unsuspecting world - a form of government
>responsible for more deaths than the totals from every war since the dawn
of
>time).
Again, bollocks.
-----------
But that's all flame war material.
Light the blue touch paper and stand well back...
-----------
>> Much potential conclict, potential for
>> varied conflict? My campaign world is stuffed with religious
>> conflict, with different faiths trying to conquer new territories
>> by various means (violence, trickery, magic, commerce). One gamer
>> out of a thousand might have problems dealing with religous
>> conflict, but for the rest of us, the added potential for conflict
>> is fun and fascinating.
>
> Picture a setting like a large city which may tolerate a wide selection
>of religions that all things being equal ought to be at each others
throats.
>They probably are! Or should be.
Why? This is not the normal pattern of events. We have had religions "at
each others throats" as the default state only since about the 10th century.
That leaves some 5000+ years of what might be called complex societies when
this was not the case.
Joe Jefferson
>
> I'm surprised by how often I see the concept of a "General Store"
> used in an AD&D town or village setting. I have a hard time
> believing that such a commercial enterprise existed back then. Am
> I way off base here? Didn't the market place serve as the
> medieval "General Store"? I don't believe that the necessary
> goods distribution systems were in place back then to supply a
> village GS. If you wanted something specific then I thought
> usually you had to go visit an artisan or tradesman.
>
Not only did you have to visit an artisan, but you almost always had to
wait too. Goods for the most part were made to order, not bought off the
rack. There were no standardized sizes for things like clothing or
shoes, so you pretty much had to be measured if you wanted something
that fit. A craftsman might have one or two articles on display though,
so that potential customers could see the quality of the workmanship. If
you're in a hurry and not particular you might be able to buy those.
Small towns and villages may have very few resident craftsmen of any
sort. Their needs would be met by travelling peddlars and craftsmen who
show up periodically. Just like today, those people would follow a set
route so they would get to know the people in the villages they visit.
These merchants obviously wouldn't carry much merchandise - although
they can certainly bring something that a customer asked for the last
time they were through. Often their work involved as much or more repair
of existing items as selling of new ones. Throughout the middle ages
almost everything was repaired rather than replaced whenever possible,
which greatly lowered the market for new merchandise.
Also keep in mind the lack of transportation and refrigeration. People
have to eat every day, so in cities there will be small bakeries,
butcher shops, and green grocers spaced about a block or two apart.
There won't be any big supermarkets because there wouldn't be enough
customers living within walking distance to make it worthwhile.
To be realistic, weapons and armor should rarely be available for sale
at all. Most people have no need whatsoever for such things. Soldiers
OTOH would work for a noble, who would hire a specialist to supply the
entire force - usually just for a season before moving on to the next
lord. In the aftermath of a war however you might be able to find a
sword or shield at an inn or brothel, where it was accepted as payment
from a recently unemployed soldier. Of course that soldier may later
regret his trade when his next employer charges him for a replacement
sword!
--
Joe of Castle Jefferson
http://www.primenet.com/~jjstrshp/
Site updated October 1st, 1999.
"Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of the
poor and oppressed. Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the
hand of the wicked." - Psalm 82:3-4.
Joe Jefferson
>
> When it comes to the General Store, having one in a village or
> small town is silly, that's true (although I have most inns
> like saddles, torches, rations. The high price and low quality
> is because the number of sales per time unit is small). But in
> a middle-size town, having a market that goes all day, six days
> a week, is very labour-intensive. Setting up one general store
> only requires the constant attention of 1-2 persons, while a
> market consists of at least a dozen booths, often many more.
>
> happened at specific times, such as "every monday". If you
> needed to buy something, and it was tuesday, you just had to
> wait six days, before the market opened. Food markets might
> have been two or three times a week, lasting maybe 4-6 hours
> per day. But I can't visualize a market that is open from 7 AM
> to 11 PM.
In the places I've been that still have open-air markets (mostly Europe
and South America) they are generally held two days a week - most often
Mondays and Thursdays.
Augustus Caesar
Elwin <shaezyra...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:1e818766...@usw-ex0101-005.remarq.com...
> I'm surprised by how often I see the concept of a "General Store"
> used in an AD&D town or village setting. I have a hard time
> believing that such a commercial enterprise existed back then. Am
> I way off base here? Didn't the market place serve as the
> medieval "General Store"?
In some towns where no general market exists, or a large merchant
house runs the whole town... there could be something along the lines
of a "General Store"
(Although I personally see these as "Trading Posts" and not really
general stores... and TSR couldn't use the term "Trading Post" because
there are too many stupid D&D players out there that'd take the name
literally and end up flooding TSR with requests for barter and market
supply/demand rules)
Duane Vanderpol
news:954613130.18750.0...@news.demon.co.uk...
> Duane Vanderpol wrote in message ...
> >Medieval you are either nobility (and how much fun is it for EVERY
> >character, EVERY time, to be nobility?)
> So you'd be instantly bored playing Pendragon then?
Read it again. I would be bored playing Pendragon ALL the time. And I
wasn't talking about Pendragon anyway but D&D.
> > In Medieval times there really was no middle class. In D&D there is
> >almost always a significant middle class of shopkeepers, guild artisans
and
> >merchants. I see no reason why a General Store should be considered to
be
> >in any way inauthentic in a fantasy environment that we call Medieval
only
> >because it has lots of the technological trappings yet only a passing
> >aquaintance with the political and sociological oppression that existed.
> -----------
> Hmm... do you know the average working day for the miserable serf was 3-4
> hours compared to between 8 and "all God sends" under wonderful
capitalism?
Ah. Well then I stand corrected. The average Medieval peasant had a
much better lot in life than I.
> > True, but then in Medieval Europe 99% of the people never went
further
> >than a half days walk from their front door. Religions were also
> >monotheistic whereas I can count on one hand the number of campaigns I've
> >heard of in the last 20 years that weren't using one or more pantheons of
> >deities. As soon as you add a dragons and talking trees and pointy-eared
> >interior decorators, any concern you may still have for "authenticity"
> is...
> >history. :-)
> ------------
> Ah, the good old "er, well, it's magic!" defence...
Yep. Works every time because it's true.
> > Stepping off topic for a moment, Charlton Heston just recently gave
the
> >most elegant and accurate definition of political correctness you could
ask
> >for: "Political correctness is tyranny with manners." If memory serves,
> >"politically correct" is a term born of such fine men as Stalin
> ------------
> Ah, bollocks.
Well then I guess my memory doesn't serve. Thank you for the
correction.
> >> Much potential conclict, potential for
> >> varied conflict? My campaign world is stuffed with religious
> >> conflict, with different faiths trying to conquer new territories
> >> by various means (violence, trickery, magic, commerce). One gamer
> >> out of a thousand might have problems dealing with religous
> >> conflict, but for the rest of us, the added potential for conflict
> >> is fun and fascinating.
> >
> > Picture a setting like a large city which may tolerate a wide
selection
> >of religions that all things being equal ought to be at each others
> throats.
> >They probably are! Or should be.
> -----------
> Why? This is not the normal pattern of events. We have had religions "at
> each others throats" as the default state only since about the 10th
century.
> That leaves some 5000+ years of what might be called complex societies
when
> this was not the case.
Go back and read again what I wrote.
PJS
Duane Vanderpol wrote in message
>PJS <P...@winwaed.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:954613130.18750.0...@news.demon.co.uk...
>> Duane Vanderpol wrote in message ...
>> >Medieval you are either nobility (and how much fun is it for EVERY
>> >character, EVERY time, to be nobility?)
>> So you'd be instantly bored playing Pendragon then?
>
> Read it again. I would be bored playing Pendragon ALL the time. And I
>wasn't talking about Pendragon anyway but D&D.
>
>> >almost always a significant middle class of shopkeepers, guild artisans
>and
>> >merchants. I see no reason why a General Store should be considered to
>be
>> >in any way inauthentic in a fantasy environment that we call Medieval
>only
>> >because it has lots of the technological trappings yet only a passing
>> >aquaintance with the political and sociological oppression that existed.
>> Hmm... do you know the average working day for the miserable serf was 3-4
>> hours compared to between 8 and "all God sends" under wonderful
>capitalism?
>
> Ah. Well then I stand corrected. The average Medieval peasant had a
>much better lot in life than I.
>
>
>further
>> >than a half days walk from their front door. Religions were also
>> >monotheistic whereas I can count on one hand the number of campaigns
I've
>> >heard of in the last 20 years that weren't using one or more pantheons
of
>> >deities. As soon as you add a dragons and talking trees and
pointy-eared
>> >interior decorators, any concern you may still have for "authenticity"
>> is...
>> >history. :-)
>> Ah, the good old "er, well, it's magic!" defence...
>
> Yep. Works every time because it's true.
>
>the
>> >most elegant and accurate definition of political correctness you could
>ask
>> >for: "Political correctness is tyranny with manners." If memory serves,
>> >"politically correct" is a term born of such fine men as Stalin
>> Ah, bollocks.
>
> Well then I guess my memory doesn't serve. Thank you for the
>correction.
>
>> >> varied conflict? My campaign world is stuffed with religious
>> >> conflict, with different faiths trying to conquer new territories
>> >> by various means (violence, trickery, magic, commerce). One gamer
>> >> out of a thousand might have problems dealing with religous
>> >> conflict, but for the rest of us, the added potential for conflict
>> >> is fun and fascinating.
>> >
>> > Picture a setting like a large city which may tolerate a wide
>selection
>> >of religions that all things being equal ought to be at each others
>> throats.
>> >They probably are! Or should be.
>> Why? This is not the normal pattern of events. We have had religions "at
>> each others throats" as the default state only since about the 10th
>century.
>> That leaves some 5000+ years of what might be called complex societies
>when
>> this was not the case.
>
> Go back and read again what I wrote.
Go back and read again what I wrote.
--
john v verkuilen
>(Although I personally see these as "Trading Posts" and not really
>general stores... and TSR couldn't use the term "Trading Post" because
>there are too many stupid D&D players out there that'd take the name
>literally and end up flooding TSR with requests for barter and market
>supply/demand rules)
Heck, those *would* be useful, though I suspect they wouldn't work very well.
Steve Buza
<shaezyra...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>I'm surprised by how often I see the concept of a "General Store"
>used in an AD&D town or village setting. I have a hard time
>believing that such a commercial enterprise existed back then. Am
>I way off base here? Didn't the market place serve as the
>medieval "General Store"? I don't believe that the necessary
>goods distribution systems were in place back then to supply a
>village GS. If you wanted something specific then I thought
>usually you had to go visit an artisan or tradesman.
Welp,
I've got to disagree with most of the other posters. (Odd, huh?) In
most towns and cities there was no such thing as the "general store"
for all the reasons mentioned. People went to specialists, etc. etc.
But in small villages (200-400) either you had a general store (one
guy who went to a city and came back with stuff on a regular basis,
and it was a hit-or-miss thing whether he had what you were looking
for); or they had traveling merchants who came with carts full of neat
artifacts that served as a general store.
Small Villages didn't have the whole marketplace with all the artisans
and craftsmen in place because small villages just don't have that
many people.
Steve
Ghostmonger
>
> "Augustus Caesar" <Imperia...@Roman.Empire.It> writes:
>
> >(Although I personally see these as "Trading Posts" and not really
> >general stores... and TSR couldn't use the term "Trading Post" because
> >there are too many stupid D&D players out there that'd take the name
> >literally and end up flooding TSR with requests for barter and market
> >supply/demand rules)
>
> Heck, those *would* be useful, though I suspect they wouldn't work very well.
Barter is really just a matter of in-game play as opposed to an
arbitrary rule. You walk up to Yngwe Malmsteen the gnomish rug merchant
and ask his price for the gnomish throw rug over there. Yngwe would
either quote a price or ask what you had to trade. You show Yngwe what
you're willing to trade. Yngwe considers the offer, and either
counter-offers with some other merchandise, tells you to up the ante, or
accepts. You trade. Done.
In terms of game mechanics, the DM really only has two things to
consider: what does Yngwe need or want? And how greedy/desperate/etc.
is Yngwe? If the rug merchant hasn't eaten for a few days and you offer
a sizeable piece of cured carcass that you speared out in the wild, he
might take it. If Yngwe is well fed and greedy, it might be very hard
indeed to get him to sell...unless you walk away. Bargaining is one of
the lost arts in currency-based RPGs.
Ghostmonger
Dave Brohman
Steve Buza wrote:
> I've got to disagree with most of the other posters. (Odd, huh?) In
> most towns and cities there was no such thing as the "general store"
> for all the reasons mentioned. People went to specialists, etc. etc.
> But in small villages (200-400) either you had a general store (one
> guy who went to a city and came back with stuff on a regular basis,
> and it was a hit-or-miss thing whether he had what you were looking
> for); or they had traveling merchants who came with carts full of neat
> artifacts that served as a general store.
Traders and peddlars, yes. General store, nope.
> Small Villages didn't have the whole marketplace with all the artisans
> and craftsmen in place because small villages just don't have that
> many people.
Correct. This is why people from small towns travelled to larger towns
and cities for markets days.
Dave Brohman
Ghostmonger wrote:
> Barter is really just a matter of in-game play as opposed to an
> arbitrary rule. You walk up to Yngwe Malmsteen the gnomish rug merchant
That was Yngwe J. Malmsteen last time I checked. :)
Ghostmonger
>
> Peter Knutsen wrote:
> > My impression is that a medieval market was something that
> > happened at specific times, such as "every monday". If you
> > needed to buy something, and it was tuesday, you just had to
> > wait six days, before the market opened. Food markets might
> > have been two or three times a week, lasting maybe 4-6 hours
> > per day. But I can't visualize a market that is open from 7 AM
> > to 11 PM.
>
> In the places I've been that still have open-air markets (mostly Europe
> and South America) they are generally held two days a week - most often
> Mondays and Thursdays.
That's all fine and well in modern Europe, but having been in places
like China, I can tell you that open-air markets happen every day, all
day, sometimes before we get our western butts out of bed. Anyone who
is depending on selling their wares and doesn't have an establishment is
going to be at the market every day, and if you're a craftsman of some
sort (we saw shoes being made before our very eyes), your shop is your
stall.
While I can't speak for medieval Europe, because I've never been there
(to my knowledge), I'm willingto bet that modern rural China is a lot
closer to the reality of medieval Europe than modern Europe.
Ghost
Robert Barrett
: Steve Buza wrote:
: > Small Villages didn't have the whole marketplace with all the artisans
: > and craftsmen in place because small villages just don't have that
: > many people.
: Correct. This is why people from small towns travelled to larger towns
: and cities for markets days.
And this is why the old chestnut that medieval people never left their
home village is an old chestnut and not the truth. Most people at least
got as far as the nearest market town on a regular basis. Factor in
pilgrimages, army marches, and the like, and you've got substantial
numbers of people on the roads all throughout the Middle Ages.
Best,
Rob
--
Robert W. Barrett, Jr. * E-mail: rbar...@dept.english.upenn.edu * World
Wide Web: http://www.english.upenn.edu/~rbarrett/index.html * Dept. of
English, Univ. of Pennsylvania * "What makes the muskrat guard his musk?
Courage!" The Cowardly Lion (Bert Lahr), *The Wizard of Oz* (1939)
Lee
I believe I have read of market days in medieval Europe.
It would probably depend on what you wanted. People coming
in from outlying areas would find a market day useful as
they would be assured of a bigger market for there goods and
a better selection for what they wanted. For shoes or tools
you would probably just go to the local craftsman. But a
farmer who lives more than an hour or two from town wouldn't
want to waste half of every day going to town selling things
then coming home. Even rural China probably has better
transportation available than mediaeval Europe.
Lee
Marcus Aurelius
rbar...@dept.english.upenn.edu (Robert Barrett) wrote:
<Dave Brohman (sul...@freewwweb.com) wrote:
<
<: Steve Buza wrote:
<
<: > Small Villages didn't have the whole marketplace with all the artisans
<: > and craftsmen in place because small villages just don't have that
<: > many people.
<
<: Correct. This is why people from small towns travelled to larger towns
<: and cities for markets days.
<
<And this is why the old chestnut that medieval people never left their
<home village is an old chestnut and not the truth. Most people at least
<got as far as the nearest market town on a regular basis. Factor in
<pilgrimages, army marches, and the like, and you've got substantial
<numbers of people on the roads all throughout the Middle Ages.
Read Chaucer's Canterbury Tales for a famous example of this.
--Marcus
Go Padres
'98 NL Champs
mckenna...@lkdsb.com
> I'm surprised by how often I see the concept of a "General Store"
> used in an AD&D town or village setting. I have a hard time
> believing that such a commercial enterprise existed back then. Am
> I way off base here? Didn't the market place serve as the
> medieval "General Store"? I don't believe that the necessary
> goods distribution systems were in place back then to supply a
> village GS. If you wanted something specific then I thought
> usually you had to go visit an artisan or tradesman.