TSR D&D religions blasphemous and insulting?
Joshua Jasper
In article <4v5g34$k...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
verkuilen john v <ja...@ux6.cso.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>One question: Have you seen L&L in publication recently?
>
>
>--
>J. Verkuilen ja...@uiuc.edu
>"No general method will fail to give bad results if conjoined with universal
>idiocy." --John Stuart Mill
Haven't I seen this thread before? realy, if it isn't in the FAQ,
it ought to be...
Sinboy
William McCarthy
Did anyone at TSR do some research before naming their Arabian
setting Al-Qadim? Al-Qadim is one of the 99 sobriquets Muslims use
to refer to Allah. I'm not castigating them, just wondering if they
did their research and picked the name purposely and knew of its
alternate meaning before using it. That would seem strange when
considering that TSR usually attempts to steer clear of offending
Christian, Judaic and Islamic sensibilities in its work. Al-Qadim
means the ancient one in Arabic but I wonder if TSR knew of the other
meaning.
One other thing that always amazes me about TSR's Deities and
Demigods policy is their use of various Deities they call "mythos"
but are still worshipped today. Has TSR ever considered that some of
the "gods" they use are still real deities in our world. One big
example is the Chinese Kuan-yin, who is still worshipped by millions
as the Goddess of Mercy. It is an affront to Chinese and millions of
other Buddhists that she is part of a TSR mythos. The Chinese mythos
section in Legends and Lore and Deities and Demigods is just
horrendous in mixing in Buddhist and traditional Chinese folklore
into one big mish-mash without rhyme or reason. The same for the
Japanese mythos which is pretty offensive to any Japanese who is an
ardent Shintoist. Amaterasu Omikami is definitely real for any
Japanese Shintoist. I'm sure the same could probably be said for
Hindus when looking at L&L or for Native Americans as well. There
are not small cults but religions with millions of worshippers that
TSR could potentially be offending. Shouldn't there be a major
overhaul in D&D to get rid of these offensive materials? Could one
imagine there being stats for God, Yahweh or Allah in Deities and
Demigods or special spells and sphere of influence in Legends and
Lore for worshippers of Christianity, Judaism or Islam? IMHO TSR
should show more respect to religions that are a minority in the U.S.
and not call them mythos, for these religions are major world
religions (ie. we're not talking small cults of potential Zeus
worshippers out there). This is not to be politically correct but to
be sensitive.
Just a thought, what does TSR have to say for itself? This is not an
attempt to start a flame war but a serious discussion of an important
topic. Thanks.
Will
Kasumi
William McCarthy wrote:
>
> Did anyone at TSR do some research before naming their Arabian
> setting Al-Qadim? Al-Qadim is one of the 99 sobriquets Muslims use
> to refer to Allah.
<justification snipped>
> Shouldn't there be a major
> overhaul in D&D to get rid of these offensive materials? Could one
> imagine there being stats for God, Yahweh or Allah in Deities and
> Demigods or special spells and sphere of influence in Legends and
> Lore for worshippers of Christianity, Judaism or Islam? IMHO TSR
> should show more respect to religions that are a minority in the U.S.
> and not call them mythos, for these religions are major world
> religions (ie. we're not talking small cults of potential Zeus
> worshippers out there). This is not to be politically correct but to
> be sensitive.
What you are talking about is the very definition of political correctness. In other
words the abridgment of freedoms of speech or expression out of some misplaced,
holier-than-thou sense of "sensitivity". We have seen on this particular news group on
any number of occasions that people of just about every religious stripe are offended by
some aspect of D&D. Most of them play the game anyway. Why should TSR spend possibly
millions of dollars (incidentally raising the prices of their products, but liberal
types never seem to care about that stuff) to repair the particular bit of trivia that
you present?
Dean
--
Necronomicon '96 - October 11-13, 1996 - Tampa, Florida
Guests of Honor - Brinke Stevens and J. Michael Straczynski of Babylon 5
visit our web page for more info: http://www.stonehill.org
verkuilen john v
Shade
In article <4v5g34$k...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, ja...@ux6.cso.uiuc.edu says...
>
>One question: Have you seen L&L in publication recently?
>
still printing it or not.
Regards,
Cymbelline.
Sea Wasp
William McCarthy wrote:
as well. There
> are not small cults but religions with millions of worshippers that
> overhaul in D&D to get rid of these offensive materials? Could one
> imagine there being stats for God, Yahweh or Allah in Deities and
> Demigods or special spells and sphere of influence in Legends and
> Lore for worshippers of Christianity, Judaism or Islam? IMHO TSR
> should show more respect to religions that are a minority in the U.S.
> and not call them mythos, for these religions are major world
> religions (ie. we're not talking small cults of potential Zeus
> worshippers out there). This is not to be politically correct but to
> be sensitive.
Twaddle.
If you get offended by someone using your deity in a game, you're
taking the game too seriously. The fact that TSR caved in to the
pressure to remove the "demons" references is pathetic. It may have
been, in the current "victim/thought police" USA, the only
reasonable economic decision, but that doesn't make it any less
stupid.
If what bothers you is the accuracy of the portrayal, write your
own supplement and submit it. Of course, if the proposal yields
boring or unplayable deities, they'll have to be changed for
game purposes.
I'd love to see an accurate Norse supplement. However, as Wizards
of the Coast could attest, the amount of work for an accurate
deific supplement that remains playable is HELLISH. Their
Norse supplement was never released (something I could CRY
over, since that one I really wanted) but the thing was
almost done... after I think two years of work.
And would an accurate portrayal soothe the savage beasts, or
just trigger off another group (like ones who would say that
the accurate portrayal of rituals and beliefs in a game
belittles said beliefs, etc...)?
Just play the game. If someone can't handle the use of their
deity in the game, they don't have to play. In fact, they don't
have to read it, either.
The same goes for anything offensive. If in someone's game they
were, say, portraying Nazism as a good thing, I'd express my
own distaste and leave. I wouldn't try to tell someone that they
shouldn't publish it. That's censorship. Doesn't matter how
offensive some group finds it, since you can find something
offensive to SOMEONE in *anything*. Should I sue the makers
of Power Rangers because the show has a stereotypical annoying
nerd, and I feel injured because I was one myself? Maybe we
should get injunctions against reruns of The Flying Nun because
it inaccurately portrays the behavior of Catholic nuns?
It's a game. It's designed for people to enjoy. Accuracy of
things like mythologies (Christian, Norse, Islamic, Buddhist,
what have you) is going to come in WAYYY second in the designer's
concerns after playability.... and maybe third, after workable
rules... or fourth, after combat and interaction system design...
and so on. If one of your staff members has the time and inclination
to do good research, that's nice. If not, well, I personally would
find it to be a shoddy piece of work, but if the rest of the game
worked well, the lack of proper mythological background won't hurt
it. After all, who's to say that the EARTHLY versions of these
mythologies are either (A) the "correct" ones, assuming the
deities in question do or ever did have any reality, or (B) are
the same versions that exist in these made-up fantasy universes?
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
obi...@richsoft.demon.co.uk
On Sat, 17 Aug 1996 23:55:30 GMT, sin...@netcom.com (Joshua Jasper)
wrote:
>In article <4v5g34$k...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
>verkuilen john v <ja...@ux6.cso.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>One question: Have you seen L&L in publication recently?
>>
>>
>>--
>>J. Verkuilen ja...@uiuc.edu
>>"No general method will fail to give bad results if conjoined with universal
>>idiocy." --John Stuart Mill
>
>
> Haven't I seen this thread before? realy, if it isn't in the FAQ,
>it ought to be...
> Sinboy
Anybody got the FAQ? I haven't seen it about.
Could you repost it, or send it to me, or something?
Thanks in advance.
Bye, and MTFBWYA. Blessed be.
Michael.S.E.Richards
EMail : Obi-wan @ Richsoft.demon.co.uk
Age : 16
Origin : Wimborne, Dorset, England
WWW : http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/2280/
An' it harm none, do as ye will.
"If you can't beat them, use them" (M.S.E.Richards, 1996)
Mr. Mad
obi...@richsoft.demon.co.uk wrote:
> > Sinboy
>
> Anybody got the FAQ? I haven't seen it about.
>
> Could you repost it, or send it to me, or something?
>
> Thanks in advance.
> Bye, and MTFBWYA. Blessed be.
>
> Michael.S.E.Richards
> EMail : Obi-wan @ Richsoft.demon.co.uk
> Age : 16
> Origin : Wimborne, Dorset, England
> WWW : http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/2280/
>
> An' it harm none, do as ye will.
>
> "If you can't beat them, use them" (M.S.E.Richards, 1996)
The newest version of this group's FAQ is at my homepage.
Aardy posts a new text version every month or so, usually around the
1st.
You can just go directly to it at
http://sac.uky.edu/~mlmorr0/rgfdfaq.html
--
_
/ \//\ Mr. Mad http://sac.uky.edu/~mlmorr0 mailto:mlm...@pop.uky.edu
\ ////
\M / "The Poor have little, Beggers none, the Rich too much, enough not one."
\/ -Benjamin Franklin
Mr. Mad
Kasumi wrote:
>
> William McCarthy wrote:
> >
> > Did anyone at TSR do some research before naming their Arabian
> > setting Al-Qadim? Al-Qadim is one of the 99 sobriquets Muslims use
> > to refer to Allah.
>
> <justification snipped>
>
> > overhaul in D&D to get rid of these offensive materials? Could one
> > imagine there being stats for God, Yahweh or Allah in Deities and
> > Demigods or special spells and sphere of influence in Legends and
> > Lore for worshippers of Christianity, Judaism or Islam? IMHO TSR
> > should show more respect to religions that are a minority in the U.S.
> > and not call them mythos, for these religions are major world
> > religions (ie. we're not talking small cults of potential Zeus
> > worshippers out there). This is not to be politically correct but to
> > be sensitive.
>
> words the abridgment of freedoms of speech or expression out of some misplaced,
> holier-than-thou sense of "sensitivity". We have seen on this particular news group on
> any number of occasions that people of just about every religious stripe are offended by
> some aspect of D&D. Most of them play the game anyway. Why should TSR spend possibly
> millions of dollars (incidentally raising the prices of their products, but liberal
> types never seem to care about that stuff) to repair the particular bit of trivia that
> you present?
>
> Dean
>
> --
> Necronomicon '96 - October 11-13, 1996 - Tampa, Florida
> Guests of Honor - Brinke Stevens and J. Michael Straczynski of Babylon 5
> visit our web page for more info: http://www.stonehill.org
Not only that, but Arabic (I would suppose) has several dialects like any
other language. I once asked my Arabic cousin - in - law what "Al Quadim" meant, and
he said that it translated roughly as "The Old times or Old way." I told him
where the phrase came from and he didn't seem offended at all. So, maybe the orginal
poster should lighten up or do a little more research
'Course I could be wrong, hasn't been the first time.
Peter Buchy
> Oh, and "Deity and Demigods" have been out of print since 1987 (or so) and
> "Legends & Lore" has been out of print since 1995.
Why is L&L outta print? What kind of crap is this? I really think this
is unfair. We go out, we buy rulebooks. They make references to other
books, ones considered classics, then somebody pulls them out of print?
Is this some marketing ploy? Will the price be jacked soon in
auctions? If so, I'll go and grab what I thought was a heralded
reference book right now!
TSR Steve
>>
I once asked my Arabic cousin - in - law what "Al Quadim" meant, and
he said that it translated roughly as "The Old times or Old way." I told
him
where the phrase came from and he didn't seem offended at all. So, maybe
the orginal
poster should lighten up or do a little more research
>>
Or maybe the original poster (William?) should look at the back of the
"Arabian Adventures" rulebook. The translation of Al Qadim given above is
the same that Grubb & Hayday give there.
In fact, Jeff Grubb popped his head in when this topic came up before. And
he said they did plenty of research.
Oh, and "Deity and Demigods" have been out of print since 1987 (or so) and
"Legends & Lore" has been out of print since 1995.
Steve Miller
TSRS...@aol.com
TSR Ravenloft & Dragonlance Design Teams
PHILOSOPHY, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.
--Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Joshua Jasper
In article <4v7l2n$8...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Which is interesting, because assuming you refer to the pre 2n'd
ed book, Legends and Lore is THE SAME BOOK as Dietys and Demigods, just
with a more PC title. I actualy knew people who thought it was a
different book and went out and bought it. Duh.
Sinboy
alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.butts alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.cartoons alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.cheerleaders alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.children alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.d alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.facia
In article <4v7l2n$8...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, tsrs...@aol.com (TSR Steve)
wrote:
> >>
> I once asked my Arabic cousin - in - law what "Al Quadim" meant, and
> he said that it translated roughly as "The Old times or Old way." I told
> him
> where the phrase came from and he didn't seem offended at all. So, maybe
> the orginal
> poster should lighten up or do a little more research
> >>
>
> Or maybe the original poster (William?) should look at the back of the
> "Arabian Adventures" rulebook. The translation of Al Qadim given above is
> the same that Grubb & Hayday give there.
>
> In fact, Jeff Grubb popped his head in when this topic came up before. And
> he said they did plenty of research.
>
> Oh, and "Deity and Demigods" have been out of print since 1987 (or so) and
> "Legends & Lore" has been out of print since 1995.
>
>
>
> Steve Miller
> TSRS...@aol.com
> TSR Ravenloft & Dragonlance Design Teams
>
> PHILOSOPHY, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.
> --Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Right, Steve. The Al-Qadim question popped up earlier on the newsgroup,
and I double-checked by initial digging by shooting over the soc area for
islam and arabic and asked about. I was informed that Al-Qadim is used as
sobriquet for God in the same manner as the western faith refers to God
the Father, as a modifier to god's name, not a replacement thereof (The
everlasting, the wise, and the bountiful are others). Several other
responses noted the Al-Qadim = ancient definition that we Andria and I had
worked out, and one said that Al-Qadim had a negative connotation, as
being out-of-date (The example used was "That news is old"). And these are
from native arabic-speakers.
Thanks for bringing it up,
Jeff G.
--
-----
Max, Press the Button!
- Prof. Fate
Mr. Mad
Joshua Jasper wrote:
>
> Which is interesting, because assuming you refer to the pre 2n'd
> ed book, Legends and Lore is THE SAME BOOK as Dietys and Demigods, just
> with a more PC title. I actualy knew people who thought it was a
> different book and went out and bought it. Duh.
> Sinboy
Actually it is. The Cuthulu mythos and one other was removed from
Legends and Lore to avoid a lawsuit from the original author. You are
right to say there is nothin *new* in it though.
--
Mr. Mad
Peter Buchy wrote:
>
> > Oh, and "Deity and Demigods" have been out of print since 1987 (or so) and
> > "Legends & Lore" has been out of print since 1995.
>
> is unfair. We go out, we buy rulebooks. They make references to other
> books, ones considered classics, then somebody pulls them out of print?
>
> Is this some marketing ploy? Will the price be jacked soon in
> auctions? If so, I'll go and grab what I thought was a heralded
> reference book right now!
Calm down. Legends and Lore is a fairly abundant book, and nothing
is stopping TSR from going back and printing some more should the demand
for the book increase.
William McCarthy
<What you are talking about is the very definition of political
<correctness. In other
<words the abridgment of freedoms of speech or expression out of some
<misplaced,
<holier-than-thou sense of "sensitivity".
Then you are not reading my post very carefully. If stats are posted
for Kuan-yin, Hindu gods and goddesses, Shinto gods and goddesses,
Native American gods and goddesses, etc., then TSR should be fair and
publish stats for Jesus, Mohammed, Abraham, Noah and all the rest as
well. And, oh yes, "God" as well, how many hit points does God have?
I'm talking about fairness and ethnocentrism, not about political
correctness. If you have stats for some of the world's most popular
religions, then you should have stats for all of them. This is
called fairness. Calling some religions "mythos" while not printing
stats for other so-called legitimate religions is really
ethnocentric. This is not PC if you understand the logic clearly.
Either all the relgions that are very popular today should have been
profiled, or none at all. To do it half-way only invites the
accusation of ethnocentrism.
< We have seen on this <particular news group on
<any number of occasions that people of just about every religious
<stripe are offended by
<some aspect of D&D. Most of them play the game anyway. Why should
TSR <spend possibly
<millions of dollars (incidentally raising the prices of their
products, <but liberal
What? I do not understand the meaning of your point here. Why would
TSR be spending millions of dollars? And on what? You are not being
clear with you meaning here. From my experience in D&D, most players
and DMs do not even like to use the real world religions in their
campaign because they do not make sense in a fantasy world. Most
people seem to prefer imaginary pantheons like those of Greyhawk and
Forgotten Realms. TSR would not lose any money and only make more
profit by printing more products like Faiths and Avatars which was a
best-seller that stores could not keep in stock. I mean really, how
many people really use the Hindu deities in their campaign? By
leaving them in its products TSR does most players and DMs no favor
and only antagonizes potential customers. To the contrary of what you
stated, TSR could only make more money by leaving them out and
putting in some good new imaginary pantheons. These imaginary ones
are much better anyway because they are tailor made for the D&D game.
Plus the real world "mythos" that are described are pretty poorly
done, woefully incomplete and inaccurate at times as well (ie.Chinese
mythos).
<types never seem to care about that stuff) to repair the particular
bit <of trivia that
<you present?
<Dean
Trivia? No I don't think so. If TSR wants to leave them in, that's
fine with me; they should then include the Christian, Islamic and
Judaic "mythoi" as well. I look forward to seeing them in print the
next time Legends and Lore is reprinted.
Will
JB
dat...@msn.com (William McCarthy) wrote:
>Did anyone at TSR do some research before naming their Arabian
>setting Al-Qadim? Al-Qadim is one of the 99 sobriquets Muslims use
>to refer to Allah. I'm not castigating them, just wondering if they
>did their research and picked the name purposely and knew of its
>alternate meaning before using it. (snip)
Well, given that there's 98 others, with the same alternate meaning,
any reference to anything mythical in an Arabian setting after 600 AD
or so would probably wind up in the same problem. You'd need an expert
to say, "No, it's one of the 99" whever someone suggests a name..
>One other thing that always amazes me about TSR's Deities and
>Demigods policy is their use of various Deities they call "mythos"
>but are still worshipped today. Has TSR ever considered that some of
>the "gods" they use are still real deities in our world. One big
>example is the Chinese Kuan-yin, who is still worshipped by millions
>as the Goddess of Mercy. It is an affront to Chinese and millions of
>other Buddhists that she is part of a TSR mythos.
It is? I mean an affront? If they even care well it's an oversight
certainly, but that doesn't mean TSR is trying to go around insulting
every possible religion.
> The Chinese mythos
>section in Legends and Lore and Deities and Demigods is just
>horrendous in mixing in Buddhist and traditional Chinese folklore
>into one big mish-mash without rhyme or reason.
Hold it.
Don't go saying "let's not have real world religions because it's
blasphemy" and saying "the mish-mash is unrealistic and horrendous" at
the same time. Please.
> The same for the
>Japanese mythos which is pretty offensive to any Japanese who is an
>ardent Shintoist. Amaterasu Omikami is definitely real for any
>Japanese Shintoist.
Hey, if you think that's bad, take a look at Japanese anime, what it
does to Japanese tradition. Well, it honors Japanese traditions at
times - and mows them over most of the time. Shintoists live with
their beliefs just fine...
> I'm sure the same could probably be said for
>Hindus when looking at L&L or for Native Americans as well. There
>are not small cults but religions with millions of worshippers that
>TSR could potentially be offending. Shouldn't there be a major
>overhaul in D&D to get rid of these offensive materials?
Why?
What about the people TSR is _not_ offending? And potential to offend
is different from actual offending.
>Could one
>imagine there being stats for God, Yahweh or Allah in Deities and
>Demigods or special spells and sphere of influence in Legends and
>Lore for worshippers of Christianity, Judaism or Islam?
Sure could... then Christians could play as followers of the One True
God battling evil like they figure it should be done, with faith and
straightforward courage, etc, etc. I can imagine it really easily.
> IMHO TSR
>should show more respect to religions that are a minority in the U.S.
>and not call them mythos, for these religions are major world
>religions (ie. we're not talking small cults of potential Zeus
>worshippers out there). This is not to be politically correct but to
>be sensitive.
Why do you think they don't call them religions? Because then TSR is
putting real world religions into its world again, which is what you
don't want. So TSR has to play this game that real world religions
have no bearing to game mythoi, at least no direct correlation, and
they are (in religious terms) damned if they do and damned if they
don't.
>Just a thought, what does TSR have to say for itself? This is not an
>attempt to start a flame war but a serious discussion of an important
>topic. Thanks.
>Will
Well, maybe I'm just asking more questions, I certainly don't want a
flame war over this either. It's not necessary. It's just that it
seems that (not that I work for TSR) TSR has to walk this fine line,
and they have a hard enough time as it is... if they went around
actively trying to "shape up" they'd invite even more criticism over
their "insufficent" efforts than they do now for doing little. Because
every religion's activists would want it done their way, and they'd
all fight with TSR over what's basically favortism. So no one would be
happy and everyone would be upset (again, just worse) and... in the
end... this is, after all, just a game, and once you get into real
world religions, it's not a game anymore. So there's no point to it
anymore, IMHO.
JB
P.S. Like it's been said, no reason for any flames on this one. It's a
serious question, I just gave a mild and reasonable response, I hope I
wasn't wrong.
Christen Yum Yuen
Peter Buchy (pbu...@abo.fi) wrote:
: Why is L&L outta print? What kind of crap is this? I really think this
: is unfair. We go out, we buy rulebooks. They make references to other
: books, ones considered classics, then somebody pulls them out of print?
None of the three "core" books (PHB, DMG, and MM) requires any
info from L&L. And 2nd ed. L&L wasn't all that great; the specialty
priests were a bit under-powered (compared to the new Faiths and
Avatars, which over-powers them a bit), and not all priests were
equally attractive to play (sure, one might argue that any person who
refuses to play a priest of deity X because of poor sphere access or
weapon restrictions is worrying more about min/maxing than role-playing,
but it still doesn't excuse a lack of balance on the part of L&L).
I'm hoping TSR decides to revamp the entire L&L book so that the
specialty priests are all of a consistent power-level (perhaps a tad less
powerful than the F&A priesthoods). And if they can make it as big as
F&A, with a similar-sized font, I'd probably grab it right off the shelf.
_______________________________________________________________________
Chris Yuen | "Shedding off one more layer of skin.
Lab Assistant | Keeping one step ahead of the persecutor within."
TGRC, UC Davis | - Bob, "Jokerman"
_______________________________________________________________________
Joshua Jasper
In article <3217D3...@pop.uky.edu>, Mr. Mad <mlm...@pop.uky.edu> wrote:
>Joshua Jasper wrote:
>>
>> Which is interesting, because assuming you refer to the pre 2n'd
>> ed book, Legends and Lore is THE SAME BOOK as Dietys and Demigods, just
>> with a more PC title. I actualy knew people who thought it was a
>> different book and went out and bought it. Duh.
>> Sinboy
>
> Actually it is. The Cuthulu mythos and one other was removed from
>Legends and Lore to avoid a lawsuit from the original author. You are
>right to say there is nothin *new* in it though.
>
>--
>/ \//\ Mr. Mad http://sac.uky.edu/~mlmorr0 mailto:mlm...@pop.uky.edu
>\ ////
> \M / "The Poor have little, Beggers none, the Rich too much, enough not one."
> \/ -Benjamin Franklin
Wrongo, the dietys and demigods book exists with the same text as
the legends and lore book in a later edition. I in fact, _own_ bolth of
these editions, same cover and everything.
Sinboy
Julie Heckman
dat...@msn.com (William McCarthy) wrote:
>Then you are not reading my post very carefully. If stats are posted
>for Kuan-yin, Hindu gods and goddesses, Shinto gods and goddesses,
>Native American gods and goddesses, etc., then TSR should be fair and
>publish stats for Jesus, Mohammed, Abraham, Noah and all the rest as
>well. And, oh yes, "God" as well, how many hit points does God have?
The problem with that is that it opens up one *huge* can of worms.
After all, no Christian would like it if God were given comparable
stats to Zeus or Odin (both leaders of their pantheons), because God
is supposed to be a lot more powerful. And if they were to give Jesus
comparable stats to Heracles (both Demigods, sons of the leader of
their respective pantheons), Christians would go into conniption fits.
TSR is doing it to protect the Christians (and their carefully held
beliefs), not discriminate against them.
> I mean really, how
>many people really use the Hindu deities in their campaign?
Not Hindu, but I do use a lot of Celtic and Norse dieties.
Erin
-----
"Bob Dole never met a tax he didn't hike... When Bob Dole talks
about leadership for the future, (remember) he's the man who
led the fight for five major tax increases in the past five
years." -Jack Kemp [St. Petersburg Times]
*email: er...@cts.com
*Web: http://www.users.cts.com/sd/e/erin
*Copyright Julie Heckman, 1996. Reproduction or redistribution
of the above on the Microsoft Network is strictly prohibited.
Terry Austin
Well, now. This was an effective troll. It even pulled in responses
from a couple of the regulars.
-------------------------------------
Terry Austin
Hyperbooks Online Bookstore
Now available by email order:
Harnic Tarot, by Robin Crossby
http://www.well.com/user/taustin
E-mail: tau...@hyperbooks.com
-------------------------------------
Robert Blanchard
In article <00001f3e...@msn.com>,
dat...@msn.com (William McCarthy) wrote:
&Did anyone at TSR do some research before naming their Arabian
&setting Al-Qadim? Al-Qadim is one of the 99 sobriquets Muslims use
&to refer to Allah. I'm not castigating them, just wondering if they
&did their research and picked the name purposely and knew of its
&alternate meaning before using it. That would seem strange when
&considering that TSR usually attempts to steer clear of offending
&Christian, Judaic and Islamic sensibilities in its work. Al-Qadim
&means the ancient one in Arabic but I wonder if TSR knew of the other
&meaning.
&
&One other thing that always amazes me about TSR's Deities and
&Demigods policy is their use of various Deities they call "mythos"
&but are still worshipped today. Has TSR ever considered that some of
&the "gods" they use are still real deities in our world. (ie. we're not
&This is not to be politically correct but to
&be sensitive.
&
bulshit
&Just a thought, what does TSR have to say for itself? This is not an
&attempt to start a flame war but a serious discussion of an important
&topic. Thanks.
Whats wrong with someone worsiping zeus? Hmmm, being a little bigoted aren't
we?
this is almost verbatim the reason that TSR pulled legends and lore from
print. Did TSR pay you to type this rant so they could have outside
justification for their cowing to the PC bandwagon ?
Bob. " You let down your people Evita, you were
r...@ior.com supposed to have been immortal. Thats all they
bob...@aol.com wanted, not much to ask for, but in the end you
http://www.ior.com/~rrb could not deliver"
R. John Morrow
Jeff Grubb (jgr...@mag7.com alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.butts alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.cartoons alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.cheerleaders alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.children alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.d alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.facia) writes:
> In article <4v7l2n$8...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, tsrs...@aol.com (TSR Steve)
> wrote:
>
>> >>
>> I once asked my Arabic cousin - in - law what "Al Quadim" meant, and
>> he said that it translated roughly as "The Old times or Old way." I told
>> him
>> where the phrase came from and he didn't seem offended at all. So, maybe
>> the orginal
>> poster should lighten up or do a little more research
>> >>
>>
>> Or maybe the original poster (William?) should look at the back of the
>> "Arabian Adventures" rulebook. The translation of Al Qadim given above is
>> the same that Grubb & Hayday give there.
>>
>> In fact, Jeff Grubb popped his head in when this topic came up before. And
>> he said they did plenty of research.
>>
>> Oh, and "Deity and Demigods" have been out of print since 1987 (or so) and
>> "Legends & Lore" has been out of print since 1995.
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve Miller
>> TSRS...@aol.com
>> TSR Ravenloft & Dragonlance Design Teams
>>
>> PHILOSOPHY, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.
>> --Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
>
> Right, Steve. The Al-Qadim question popped up earlier on the newsgroup,
> and I double-checked by initial digging by shooting over the soc area for
> islam and arabic and asked about. I was informed that Al-Qadim is used as
> sobriquet for God in the same manner as the western faith refers to God
> the Father, as a modifier to god's name, not a replacement thereof (The
> everlasting, the wise, and the bountiful are others). Several other
> responses noted the Al-Qadim = ancient definition that we Andria and I had
> worked out, and one said that Al-Qadim had a negative connotation, as
> being out-of-date (The example used was "That news is old"). And these are
> from native arabic-speakers.
>
> Thanks for bringing it up,
>
> Jeff G.
>
As a Foreign Service Officer with extensive service in the
Mid-East and North Africa, I would add my voice to the cries of "lighten
up". Al-Qadim (which I in my own limited Arabic had always thought of as
"The Ancient") is hardly blasphemous. In Arabic it is common to refer to
Allah as The Benevolent, The Merciful, etc etc. This does not mean that
"the benevolent" becomes a synonym for Allah.
Just my $0.02.
--
"You're dead for a real long time, you just can't prevent it,
So if money can't buy happines, I guess I'll have to rent it."
- Weird Al-
Eric Boyd
In article <3217D4...@pop.uky.edu>, Mr. Mad <mlm...@pop.uky.edu> wrote:
>Peter Buchy wrote:
>> Why is L&L outta print? What kind of crap is this? I really think this
>> is unfair. We go out, we buy rulebooks. They make references to other
>> books, ones considered classics, then somebody pulls them out of print?
>>
>> auctions? If so, I'll go and grab what I thought was a heralded
>> reference book right now!
>
> Calm down. Legends and Lore is a fairly abundant book, and nothing
>is stopping TSR from going back and printing some more should the demand
>for the book increase.
Actually I think L&L is being replaced by a new product for the Planescape
setting titled "On Hallowed Ground". From what I've heard of it, it promises
to be a fantastic book.
Eric
TSR Steve
Eric Boyd wrote:
> Actually I think L&L is being replaced by a new product for the
> Planescape setting titled "On Hallowed Ground". From what I've heard
> of it, it promises to be a fantastic book.
Yes and no. I believe "On Hollowed Ground" swings things around to look at
the gods and their servitors from the inside-out... which, of course, if
what a PLANESCAPE accessory should do. Naturally, there is some overlap
with Legend & Lore, so it is a replacement of sorts. (If I'm wrong, I'm
sure Monte or one of the other 'Scapers who reads these groups will jump
in and correct me.)
The fact is--or so I am told--Legend & Lore just was not selling all that
well. As Mr. Mad said in another post, it's an abundent book with plenty
of copies on market. (Which is occassionally a sign of a book not selling
well...)
TSR Steve
William McCarthy wrote:
> I mean really, how
>many people really use the Hindu deities in their campaign?
Actually, I did. For a couple of years in my D&D campaign using the
Mystara setting. Hule essentially worshipped the Indic pantheon. (I
renamed them all, so the players wouldn't recognize them, but many of
those gods were drawn from L&L and real sources on India's religions.)
TSR Steve
Robert Blanchard wrote:
> this is almost verbatim the reason that TSR pulled legends and lore
> from print.
Gee, and here I thought it was because no one was buying it. Silly me.
Ernie Cooper
It comes down to what you think TSR's intent was. My opinion is that
they don't mean to insult any religion. If they mistakenly have done
so, it is probably their 'eastern culture' ignorance. I don't see
how you can make-believe any mythos and not insult somebody. TSR
irriates a lot of Christians because some Christians (not me) think
that role-playing a world with different Gods is blasphemous.
--
"Winning is not a sometime thing; it's an all time thing."
--- Vincent Lombardi
Terry Austin
jbou...@atcon.com (JB) wrote:
>P.S. Like it's been said, no reason for any flames on this one. It's a
>serious question, I just gave a mild and reasonable response, I hope I
>wasn't wrong.
It's a troll, intentional or not, and it's working.
Next week, there will be at least 150 articles in this thread, and 125
of them will include profanity or other namecalling, and few of those
will have anything else.
Joshua Jasper
In article <4v9vsd$p...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
TSR Steve <tsrs...@aol.com> wrote:
>Robert Blanchard wrote:
>
>> this is almost verbatim the reason that TSR pulled legends and lore
>> from print.
>
>Gee, and here I thought it was because no one was buying it. Silly me.
>
>
>Steve Miller
Actualy, it just never got converted from 1'st to 2n'd edition.
We'll never know wether it'd sell well under 2n'd ed uneless someone
tries to put it out again. It probably stopped selling so well because
almost everyon who played 1'st ed _has_ the book. Other than dietys,
there are _alot_ of usefull things in that book, like monsters specific
to certain mythologys, quite important to a campaign, oh, and rules for
playing clerics of different pantheons, benifits to worshiping certain
dietys, rules for divine interevention, lots of great stuff. Personaly, I
never considered the stats in the books to be specific to the gods, just
as benchmarks for thier avatars.
Sinboy
Eric Boyd
In article <sinboyDw...@netcom.com>,
Joshua Jasper <sin...@netcom.com> wrote:
> Actualy, it just never got converted from 1'st to 2n'd edition.
>We'll never know wether it'd sell well under 2n'd ed uneless someone
>tries to put it out again. It probably stopped selling so well because
>almost everyon who played 1'st ed _has_ the book. Other than dietys,
>there are _alot_ of usefull things in that book, like monsters specific
>to certain mythologys, quite important to a campaign, oh, and rules for
>playing clerics of different pantheons, benifits to worshiping certain
>dietys, rules for divine interevention, lots of great stuff. Personaly, I
>never considered the stats in the books to be specific to the gods, just
>as benchmarks for thier avatars.
Huh?
Legends & Lore was extensively rewritten and released in 2nd Edition format.
It seems like there is some confusion here ...
Eric
Joshua Jasper
Sinboy
J. McGuire
William McCarthy wrote:
<snip>
> One other thing that always amazes me about TSR's Deities and
> Demigods policy is their use of various Deities they call "mythos"
> but are still worshipped today.
Are you aware of the meaning of the word "mythos"? From your posting,
you don't appear to be.
It's more-or-less the entire religous/supernatural worldview
of a culture or religious system. You might as easily speak of, for
example, the role of saints in the Roman Catholic mythos, as that of
Kuan-Yin in the Chinese mythos.
<snip>
> IMHO TSR
> should show more respect to religions that are a minority in the U.S.
> and not call them mythos, for these religions are major world
> religions (ie. we're not talking small cults of potential Zeus
> worshippers out there). This is not to be politically correct but to
> be sensitive.
BTW, 'mythos' is singular, for what it's worth. The plural is 'mythoi'.
And you *are* trying to impose political correctness. Nobody who is
offended at the thought of their deity existing in a RPG world is forced
to play that game. Prohibiting everyone _else_ from playing that game
IS political correctness, and seems to me to exhibit an attitude of "We
have to help these poor, helpless minorities, they can't do anything for
themselves..." -- how patronizing can you _get_? I'm sure that, say, the
Emperor of Japan is in a position to object if he feels that his religion
is being mocked.
Might I point out, btw, that many RP games DO use Christian, Jewish, and
Moslem religions, deities, and worshippers as part of the game? In fact,
I've seen one entire Christian role-playing game (even if they don't
explicitly call it a RPG) based around that exact concept. And then
there's Steve Jackson Games' long-awaited In Nomine, which will (when it
*finally* appears) cover the eternal conflict between the forces of God
and Satan, complete with angels and devils. One of the people I know who
has been to some extent involved in the project is in fact a Catholic
priest. *HE* doesn't seem to be offended -- and in fact has written at
least one Pyramid article for the game.
Back to the Al-Qadim thing...if you removed everything that is used as a
name of the primary god in even the three major religions, you'd have a
rather sparse language to work with. There are a *lot* of 'names of God'
out there!
-- JMM
Wintertree Software
http://www.io.com/~wtsoft
David C. Smith
William McCarthy wrote:
[ snip ]
> Has TSR ever considered that some of
> the "gods" they use are still real deities in our world.
What do you mean, "real"?
> One big
> example is the Chinese Kuan-yin, who is still worshipped by millions
> as the Goddess of Mercy. It is an affront to Chinese and millions of
> other Buddhists that she is part of a TSR mythos. The Chinese mythos
> section in Legends and Lore and Deities and Demigods is just
> horrendous in mixing in Buddhist and traditional Chinese folklore
> into one big mish-mash without rhyme or reason. The same for the
> Japanese mythos which is pretty offensive to any Japanese who is an
> ardent Shintoist. Amaterasu Omikami is definitely real for any
> Japanese Shintoist. I'm sure the same could probably be said for
> Hindus when looking at L&L or for Native Americans as well.
It can probably be said for just about every pantheon represented in
Legends and Lore -- the "Celtic Mythos" stands out in my mind, with its
jumbling of the various Celtic pantheons (Irish, British, Gaulish, etc.)
and its assertion (in L&L1/Deities and Demigods) that the druids
practiced human sacrifice.
> There
> are not small cults but religions with millions of worshippers that
> TSR could potentially be offending.
What's the difference between a religion and a cult? The number of
worshipers?
> Shouldn't there be a major
> overhaul in D&D to get rid of these offensive materials?
All of the materials you have mentioned (Al-Qadim, Deities and Demigods,
Legends and Lore) are out of print.
> Could one
> imagine there being stats for God, Yahweh or Allah in Deities and
> Demigods or special spells and sphere of influence in Legends and
> Lore for worshippers of Christianity, Judaism or Islam? IMHO TSR
> should show more respect to religions that are a minority in the U.S.
> and not call them mythos, for these religions are major world
> religions (ie. we're not talking small cults of potential Zeus
> worshippers out there). This is not to be politically correct but to
> be sensitive.
I don't think you're being politically correct, and you're hardly being
sensitive, with all your talk about "cults."
> Just a thought, what does TSR have to say for itself? This is not an
> attempt to start a flame war
No? Then why did you post this here, if you're more interested in what
TSR has to say for itself? TSR's e-mail and snail mail addresses are
pretty well known and you wouldn't have to look far to find them.
> but a serious discussion of an important
> topic. Thanks.
I assure you that whenever you bring up "real-world" religion in this
newsgroup, you're asking for a flame war.
David
--
David Smith at Fox Chase Cancer Center
D_S...@fccc.edu
William McCarthy
>>
I once asked my Arabic cousin - in - law what "Al Quadim" meant, and
he said that it translated roughly as "The Old times or Old way." I told
him
where the phrase came from and he didn't seem offended at all. So, maybe
the orginal
poster should lighten up or do a little more research
>>
Um, well you should do some more research because Al-Qadim is one of
the 99 sobriquets for Allah. Plus, is your Arabic cousin a Muslim?
Definitely not all Arabs are Muslims, which is a common erroneous
assumption that many Americans make. Plus I never said that it was
or was not offensive, it was a comment of curiousity. Perhaps you
should read more carefully.
>>Or maybe the original poster (William?) should look at the back of the
"Arabian Adventures" rulebook. The translation of Al Qadim given above is
the same that Grubb & Hayday give there.>>
Another person that does not read posts carefully *sigh*. In my
original post I said that one meaning for Al-Qadim is the ancient
one. I was not ignorant of that meaning such as that you imply.
>>In fact, Jeff Grubb popped his head in when this topic came up before. And
he said they did plenty of research.>>
Yes, I remember that post, he said they asked a University of
Wisconsin professor to check on it, but he must not have known of the
99 sobriquets very well. His Arabic or knowledge of Islam might not
have been very good. This is not unusual for academics to have
sub-fluent language skills in their field of concentration
(especially after many years of not being abroad to use these
skills).
<<Oh, and "Deity and Demigods" have been out of print since 1987 (or so) and
"Legends & Lore" has been out of print since 1995.<<
Yes, so that means that TSR supported this policy actively for almost
20 years. Especially when considering that Deities and Demigods went
through two transitions (from Cthulu and Melnibone to taking them
out) then to two renditions of Legends and Lore (from practically a
carbon copy of Deities and Demigods to taking out the stats of the
"gods" and introducing the concept of avatars), TSR never saw fit to
take out some mythoi which could have offended some people.
I imagine that eventually TSR will put out another rendition of
Legends and Lore (it is pretty central to the game with clerics being
used). The question is: what will they do next time?
Will
Terry Austin
Troll.
William McCarthy
Now to respond to a few of the other comments:
to jbourque:
True, with 99 sobriquets it would be difficult to get around all of
them and produce a medieval Arabic setting for a game.
I know that the way the Chinese "mythos" is presented is an affront
to many Chinese Buddhists. Chinese-Americans whom I have gamed with
were shocked when they saw stats for Kuan-yin and pretty insulted as
well. They asked where's Jesus, Mohammed and Abraham, and all I
could say was "er, I don't know." They then concluded that the
makers of D&D were ethnocentrists and what could I say? It was
pretty damning evidence right there in a book that has been published
by TSR for over 15 years (yes, I know it is out of print now, but it
was in print for a long time and is still lingering on many hobby
store shelves).
What I said was, if we are going to have real world religions, then
all of them should be presented, not just a select few. The
mish-mash is bad because it's inaccurate to portray Chinese Buddhism
with folk religion. The two could have two separate sections if TSR
wanted. Yes, there is some cross-over between the two but not as
much as is presented. Chinese folk religion is as different to
Buddhism as Islam is different from Arabic animism. They both
co-exist in the same place and even cross from time to time, but they
are both very different.
As for Shinto, you make an interesting point. Like I said in my
original post, only an ardent Shintoist would be insulted and believe
me, the Japanese right wing who are Shintoists are not big fans of
anime that insults Shintonism. Most Shintoists couldn't care less,
that's the nature of Shinto.
If TSR wants to keep the material in, that's fine with me, just make
it fair and include stats for all the world's religions. I really
thought it was a bit of a snowjob that Islam was not incorporated at
all in Al-Qadim, at least as potential for optional rules. The same
for regular D&D, Christianity and Judaism could make for some
interesting role-playing activities. I did not say that all real
world religions should not be included in D&D, just that there should
be FAIRNESS (that's the key to what I am saying). If you include all
the rest, except for the big three known in the West, then that is
unfair and smacks of favoritism.
To Seawasp:
I also think it was ridiculous to take out Demons and Devils from
D&D. Planescape pretty much put them back in though. The
right-wingers just do not know the game well enough to figure it out.
I think a "real" portrayal, according to history would be very
interesting and not boring at all. In Al-Qadim, for example, it
would be very exciting to play one of the sahabah (Mohammed's
companions) warriors on the way back to Medina to take out the
Quraish and spread Islam. That would not only create interesting
role-playing opportunities but also enable us to learn some history
as well.
I agree, if someone cannot handle their deity being in the game, they
don't have to play with that deity. Just put all the deities into
the game, so the players and DMs can decide who to put in and who to
leave out.
I am in no way advocating censorship, and if my views were construed
as such, I am sorry. Simply put, either all of them should be put
in, or leave them out. Personally, I would like to see them all put
in and we can decide for ourselves to use them.
I actually thought some nuns could fly when I was a kid ;-).
In all, I think some interesting comments have come up so far in this
discussion. I meant for the original post to be thought-provoking and
I hope it has been.
Will
David Dylan
-=> Quoting William McCarthy to All <=-
Hi,
WM> Trivia? No I don't think so. If TSR wants to leave them in, that's
WM> fine with me; they should then include the Christian, Islamic and
WM> Judaic "mythoi" as well. I look forward to seeing them in print the
WM> next time Legends and Lore is reprinted.
I agree. Funny how christianity is always presented as the 'real'
religion and the others as 'those other guys' at best.
Greetz.
DD.
Please send E-mail to : nob...@xs4all.nl Thank you.
_____________________________________________________________________________
David Dylan , Illustrator, writer, rock-journalist, and student history.
member of the TRIBE MAGAZINE (E-zine) team. head editor actually....
=============================================================================
'Now, lost in time, cut off from history, This is not knowledge, this is
information..' Sullivan/Heaton. (New Model Army) 1987
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Usage of this E-mail adress for sending harrassing and/or commercial E-mail
Will be charged US $ 1000- per received message. I WILL COLLECT!!
... Guns don't kill, fast moving projectiles do!
Sea Wasp
Julie Heckman wrote:
>
> dat...@msn.com (William McCarthy) wrote:
>
> >Then you are not reading my post very carefully. If stats are posted
> >for Kuan-yin, Hindu gods and goddesses, Shinto gods and goddesses,
> >Native American gods and goddesses, etc., then TSR should be fair and
> >publish stats for Jesus, Mohammed, Abraham, Noah and all the rest as
> >well. And, oh yes, "God" as well, how many hit points does God have?
Stats for JVH/"I Am"/ "God" are very simple. Unlike all the others,
He is All. Therefore, HP: Yes. Intelligence: Of course. Armor
Class: Don't even THINK about it. (see Teenagers From Outer
Space).
The others? Jesus would be a basically normal human being, probably
with unearthly wisdom (later on) and with lots of natural, God-granted
powers -- sort of an instinctual High Priest. The same would
be true of most of the other biblical characters; they had basically
normal abilities in the stat sense, just a lot of god-granted powers.
Sampson would be one exception; so long as his hair was uncut, he
would have some really DISGUSTING strength and con.
>
> The problem with that is that it opens up one *huge* can of worms.
> After all, no Christian would like it if God were given comparable
> stats to Zeus or Odin (both leaders of their pantheons), because God
> is supposed to be a lot more powerful. And if they were to give Jesus
> comparable stats to Heracles (both Demigods, sons of the leader of
> their respective pantheons), Christians would go into conniption fits.
> TSR is doing it to protect the Christians (and their carefully held
> beliefs), not discriminate against them.
No, they're doing it to protect their own asses. Though there are
some worshippers of Wotan/Odinn/etc here in the USA, they don't number
in the multiple millions, nor are they led by jerks like the classic
Far Right Televangelist. Thus, even if you DO piss off the Zeus and
Odin worshippers, you're not likely to lose huge amounts of
revenue and be accused of being the incarnation of Satan/Loki/etc
on the 6:00 news. While most Christians are decent, sensible people,
their lunatic fringe exceeds in numbers the population of any other
three or four cults.
>
> > I mean really, how
> >many people really use the Hindu deities in their campaign?
>
> Not Hindu, but I do use a lot of Celtic and Norse dieties.
I use ALL deities (yes, including the Christian "God") in mine.
Nordic, Greek, Japanese, Celtic, the Valar (Lord of the Rings),
the Dragonlance gods, Polynesian, and tons of homegrown ones too.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
JL
er...@cts.com (Julie Heckman) wrote:
>dat...@msn.com (William McCarthy) wrote:
>The problem with that is that it opens up one *huge* can of worms.
>After all, no Christian would like it if God were given comparable
>stats to Zeus or Odin (both leaders of their pantheons), because God
>is supposed to be a lot more powerful. And if they were to give Jesus
>comparable stats to Heracles (both Demigods, sons of the leader of
>their respective pantheons), Christians would go into conniption fits.
>> I mean really, how
>>many people really use the Hindu deities in their campaign?
>Not Hindu, but I do use a lot of Celtic and Norse dieties.
And THAT is what he is talking about.
So what, we protect the Christians and inflame other religions?
How many hit points DOES Odin have?
Well, let's see...
According to L&L, 24 HD, so roughly 144...
144!!! I've seen Ancient Red Wyrms with more!!!!
And he's only a 20th level fighter?
Gugnir's only +5?
And let's see if we can even FIND Cernnunos in this book...
No, but the Wild Hunt shows up...and that is a legend from ACROSS
Europe, not merely Celtic lands...The leader is a dark skinned MAN?!
In some areas he is not a man at all, but a woman, or even a sexless
skeleton.
The Celtic pantheon portrayed in L&L is pretty inaccurate and does not
even begin to cover all the various Dieties that SHOULD have been at
least mentioned, if not included.
As far as I am concerned, the Christians can HAVE conniption fits!!!
>TSR is doing it to protect the Christians (and their carefully held
>beliefs), not discriminate against them.
Oh, the Christians need to be protected by TSR?!
Give me a break!!
"...carefully held beliefs"? What about the "carefully held beliefs"
of the Asatru or Druids? (Norse and Celtic respectively) I can get
you in touch with a number of modern Asatruar Fellowships and Druidic
Groves if you'd like.
It is not to protect the Christians, it is because the Xtians are in
the majority and WOULD have fits if TSR put their 'dieties' in their
books, making lots of legal trouble for TSR (it is only good policy
and sense to not poke sticks at wild animals, they get mad and bite
back).
It seems thought, that they will discriminate against the members of
other faiths? Hindus, Bhuddists, Native reconstructionists?
Hmmm, the Great Spirit is listed too...Maybe AIM should be informed?
It is an insult, especially with THAT measley number of hit points and
levels.
>no Christian would like it if God were given comparable
>stats to Zeus or Odin (both leaders of their pantheons), because God
>is supposed to be a lot more powerful.
The Great Spirit is an all-powerful Creator entity.
He's not as powerful as God???
I'm not quite sure I see the difference...
Though I do see what might be termed 'Ethnocentrism'.
Because the Christians *believe* (key word, here) that God is more
powerful, or as you said your self, "supposed to be more powerful",
you knock other all-powerful dieties down in status?
Odin IS the All-Father, afterall. I don't exactly think of him as
playing second-fiddle to Jehovah.
This post is not meant to be inflamatory (it is just that the subject
matter itself is volatile and that tends to spread into discussion),
but meant as "Something to Think About(tm)"
-Oarim
PS-- I believe that the sentiments being related in this whole
discussion is part of the reason that TSR dropped production of
Legends & Lore, and stuck with the pantheons they had created.
**********************
Fate leads
the willing,
the unwilling--
she drags.
JL
sin...@netcom.com (Joshua Jasper) wrote:
> Actualy, it just never got converted from 1'st to 2n'd edition.
Um, Sinboy, I've got the 2ND ED book right here. It's called Legends
& Lore. It is the 2nd ed. version of Dieties & Demigods (a copy of
which I also have).
-Oarim
JL
jbou...@atcon.com (JB) wrote:
> this is, after all, just a game, and once you get into real
>world religions, it's not a game anymore. So there's no point to it
>anymore, IMHO.
That's right, and the ones (like me) who practice the "alternative"
religions (Gods, I hate that term), usually have been role-players for
years and it doesn't bug us, because we know how to do this really
cool thing:
Seperate a Game from Real Life!!!
There are any number of non-RPGers (and some RPGers) who could learn
that particular skill.
Julie Heckman
slei...@northernnet.com (JL) wrote:
>So what, we protect the Christians and inflame other religions?
Whoa, stop the horse. :) I'm on your side in this, Oarim. I'm not
suggesting that TSR did right by the other Myths, necessarily,
although I do understand that some things had to be re-worked a bit to
fit in a game-balanced fantasy setting. TSR did better by the Celts
in the Celt Sourcebook, but even there I could see over-simplification
to the point of error.
And they gave the Gods a lot more power in 2nd Ed., especially in the
past few years (I mostly play FR setting, and they're impossible to
kill in that, as it should be).
>Oh, the Christians need to be protected by TSR?!
>Give me a break!!
>"...carefully held beliefs"? What about the "carefully held beliefs"
>of the Asatru or Druids? (Norse and Celtic respectively) I can get
>you in touch with a number of modern Asatruar Fellowships and Druidic
>Groves if you'd like.
Um, I am a Druid. And I Celtic Wiccan. I have been for over 10
years. I don't really *need* a lesson in those, although I'm always
receptive to information. My whole point is that TSR has enough
trouble with the Rabid Christians as it is; I've played the game (as
you have, perhaps) long enough to remember the "Devil Worship"
features on "60 Minutes" about Dungeons and Dragons during the late
70's/early 80's. They had a difficult enough time as it was without
adding the additional problem of featuring Christian Gods on level
with other Mythoi. I have no problem with that, obviously; but
whether you like it or not, those Christians having fits out there can
put a lot of pressure on a company. Especially a fledgling company as
TSR was when the first "Dieties and Demigods" came out.
>The Great Spirit is an all-powerful Creator entity.
>He's not as powerful as God???
Not according to the Christians, NO. According to the Christians, the
Great Spirit is a *demon*. And God is all-powerful. I, personally,
don't agree. But I was advancing the point as a reason why TSR shied
away from it, quite understandably in my view.
>Because the Christians *believe* (key word, here) that God is more
>powerful, or as you said your self, "supposed to be more powerful",
>you knock other all-powerful dieties down in status?
Not me. Don't assume that because I was trying to rationalize why TSR
left Christian myth out of Dieties & Demigods that I *believe* what
the Christians do. Quite the opposite. According to Christians,
there is only one all-powerful diety -- God. And if they saw him
ranked up there with Odin, or Zeus, or the Great Spirit, they would
have fits. And they would make themselves be heard, whether through
protesting, boycotting, or even death-threats. If I were TSR, I
wouldn't think it would be worth it either.
>PS-- I believe that the sentiments being related in this whole
>discussion is part of the reason that TSR dropped production of
>Legends & Lore, and stuck with the pantheons they had created.
Some of the pantheons they created, though, feature very prominently
Gods from L&L. Tyr, Mielikki, and Loviatar are all real gods, and all
figure into the Forgotten Realms campaign. There is also a land
bordering the Faerun heartlands (Mulhorand?) which features an
Egyptian pantheon.
Julie Heckman
"David C. Smith" <D_S...@fccc.edu> wrote:
>It can probably be said for just about every pantheon represented in
>Legends and Lore -- the "Celtic Mythos" stands out in my mind, with its
>jumbling of the various Celtic pantheons (Irish, British, Gaulish, etc.)
>and its assertion (in L&L1/Deities and Demigods) that the druids
>practiced human sacrifice.
You're right about mixing the Celtic Mythos... There's a little bit of
everything in that pantheon. The Druids most certainly did perform
human sacrifice, however.
>What's the difference between a religion and a cult? The number of
>worshipers?
"Cult, n. A religion that I don't agree with."
:)
Mr Mad
JL wrote:
<big snip>
> -Oarim
>
> PS-- I believe that the sentiments being related in this whole
> discussion is part of the reason that TSR dropped production of ^^^^
Discussion? What discussion? Ya' went into flame mode at about
your third sentance.
> Legends & Lore, and stuck with the pantheons they had created.
_
/ \//\ Mr. Mad http://sac.uky.edu/~mlmorr0 mailto:mlm...@pop.uky.edu
\ ////
\M / "The Poor have little, Beggers none, the Rich too much, enough not one."
\/ -Benjamin Franklin
JL
Kasumi <kasumi...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>What you are talking about is the very definition of political correctness. In other
>words the abridgment of freedoms of speech or expression out of some misplaced,
>holier-than-thou sense of "sensitivity".
>Why should TSR spend possibly
>millions of dollars (incidentally raising the prices of their products, but liberal
>types never seem to care about that stuff) to repair the particular bit of trivia that
>you present?
I take offense at that "Liberal-types" crack, as I am a liberal and
I'M NOT BITCHING ABOUT GAMING MATERIALS!
Think before you speak and stereo-type.
Now that my rant is done...
Admidtedly, publishing the Gods and Goddesses of numerous pantheons as
"Mythos" is slightly insulting to "alternative" religious-types, but
no more than all those thousands of books out there on "mythology"
describing the religious rituals and stories of many ancient and
modern peoples as such.
I just remember : "What one society calls mythology is another
socitey's religon." and remind people of it.
I don't go off half-cocked screaming about my beliefs being viewed
inappropriately.
("Myths about Thor and Odin?
WHADDAYA MEAN, MYTHS!!??")
So, don't get your underwear/pantyhose/leiderhosen in a knot about it.
(I'm still waiting for the sourcebook with the "Christian Mythos"
listed in the index! <g>)
JL
"Mr. Mad" <mlm...@pop.uky.edu> wrote:
> Actually it is. The Cuthulu mythos and one other was removed from
>Legends and Lore to avoid a lawsuit from the original author. You are
>right to say there is nothin *new* in it though.
Actually, no.
The Cuthulu mythos was removed from the original printing of Dieties
and Demigods, which retained it's name for the second and subsequent
printings, up until they changed the name for the 2nd Ed version to
<drum roll> LEGENDS & LORE.
-Oarim
(who would love to get his hands on an edition of Dieties and Demigods
with the Cthulu mythos in it!!! Cause he has the one that doesn't)
ash...@opus1.com
>That's right, and the ones (like me) who practice the "alternative"
>religions (Gods, I hate that term), usually have been role-players for
>years and it doesn't bug us, because we know how to do this really
>cool thing:
>Seperate a Game from Real Life!!!
>There are any number of non-RPGers (and some RPGers) who could learn
>that particular skill.
Very true. I'll probably regret saying this, but wasn't it the more
natural, easy-going religions (Wicca, Druidism, the Asatru, Hindu,
etc.) that were around BEFORE Christianity? I'd certainly like to
have seen how our world would have turned out (likely for the better?)
if the polytheistic or mystic religions had remained dominant?
Blake
ash...@opus1.com
>>The Great Spirit is an all-powerful Creator entity.
>>He's not as powerful as God???
>Not according to the Christians, NO. According to the Christians, the
>Great Spirit is a *demon*. And God is all-powerful. I, personally,
>don't agree. But I was advancing the point as a reason why TSR shied
>away from it, quite understandably in my view.
I think the whole monotheism thing gives a better excuse as to why the
energy of your belief isn't causing this being to contact you
directly. I think it's all a construct to focus your energies into
something (in?)tangible.
>>Because the Christians *believe* (key word, here) that God is more
>>powerful, or as you said your self, "supposed to be more powerful",
>>you knock other all-powerful dieties down in status?
>Not me. Don't assume that because I was trying to rationalize why TSR
>left Christian myth out of Dieties & Demigods that I *believe* what
>the Christians do. Quite the opposite. According to Christians,
>there is only one all-powerful diety -- God. And if they saw him
>ranked up there with Odin, or Zeus, or the Great Spirit, they would
>have fits. And they would make themselves be heard, whether through
>protesting, boycotting, or even death-threats. If I were TSR, I
>wouldn't think it would be worth it either.
To paraphrase, "Well there's a shocker." I think it'd be interesting
if they just left God out of the whole mess. Don't you?
>Some of the pantheons they created, though, feature very prominently
>Gods from L&L. Tyr, Mielikki, and Loviatar are all real gods, and all
>figure into the Forgotten Realms campaign. There is also a land
>bordering the Faerun heartlands (Mulhorand?) which features an
>Egyptian pantheon.
What culture made Loviatar and Tyr? And BTW, I think you're right
about Mulhorand; it's a great place of origin for characters
(especially Mages; have you thought how a Mage's paradigm would be if
she were brought up in a society where the gods are said to walk among
them in various guises? Quite a bit different, I'd say.).
Blake
JL
Mr Mad <mlm...@pop.uky.edu> is rumored to have spoken thusly:
>JL wrote:
>> PS-- I believe that the sentiments being related in this whole
>> discussion is part of the reason that TSR dropped production of ^^^^
> Discussion? What discussion? Ya' went into flame mode at about
>your third sentance.
Whoa! Wait, "flame mode"??
If that is what people read, I apologize (and would ask exactly what
was viewed as flaming); however that was assuredly not my intention!!
Not to mention, if I flame someone, you'll KNOW!! :)
-Oarim
******************************************************
"I stopped playing Magic: The Gathering(tm) when
a booster pack started costing more than a good book."
Jason Hatter
ash...@opus1.com wrote:
: What culture made Loviatar and Tyr? And BTW, I think you're right
: about Mulhorand; it's a great place of origin for characters
: (especially Mages; have you thought how a Mage's paradigm would be if
: she were brought up in a society where the gods are said to walk among
: them in various guises? Quite a bit different, I'd say.).
Okay, Loviatar I can see, since Finnish mythology isn't covered in
grade-high schools (at least, not the ones I went to), but I'm sure you've
heard of Tyr. Norse god, big guy, one handed since he put his hand in
Fenris Wolf's mouth in order to convince him that the gods weren't pulling
a fast one (Tyr lost said hand when Fenris discovered that yes, the gods
DID trick him...but that's later...).
--
Jason
http://www.cris.com/~towonder/
RPG stuff at http://www.cris.com/~towonder/rpg.html (not much there)
featuring Sailor Moon V at http://www.cris.com/~towonder/fanfic.html
JL
er...@cts.com (Julie Heckman) is rumored to have spoken thusly:
>slei...@northernnet.com (JL) wrote:
>>So what, we protect the Christians and inflame other religions?
>Whoa, stop the horse. :) I'm on your side in this, Oarim. I'm not
>suggesting that TSR did right by the other Myths, necessarily,
>although I do understand that some things had to be re-worked a bit to
>fit in a game-balanced fantasy setting. TSR did better by the Celts
>in the Celt Sourcebook, but even there I could see over-simplification
>to the point of error.
<snip, snip...snipsnipsnip...whew>
Okay, looks like we got our signals crossed! ;)
It happens.
I understand completely where you are coming from, as I hold the same
position (hence my comment about TSR doing the sensical thing by not
including the Christian mythos in any edition of L&L, thus poking a
stick at a big mean animal).
I STILL want to see Christianity: "God" listed though! <smirk>
R. John Morrow
A bunch of people wrote:
> Blah blah blah.
Let's get down to the real issue, which is the absurdity of
publishing stats for "gods" at all. I never use their stats. I use the
descriptions of the church and priesthood etc, but what the hell do you
need an AC for a god for.
In my world, anyone stupid enough to require the AC of a deity
isn't long for the planet, so its a moot point. "I swing my sword at
Zeus." "Okay, what kind of character do you want to play this time?"
--
"You're dead for a real long time, you just can't prevent it,
So if money can't buy happines, I guess I'll have to rent it."
- Weird Al-
David C. Smith
Mr. Mad wrote:
>
> Peter Buchy wrote:
[ snip ]
>
> Calm down. Legends and Lore is a fairly abundant book, and nothing
> is stopping TSR from going back and printing some more should the demand
> for the book increase.
If I'm not mistaken, I remember Sean Reynolds (the TSR Online
Coordinator) mentioning that one of his projects was to bring the L&L
(2nd ed.) materials on-line.
TSR Online Coordinator
A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
David C. Smith (D_S...@fccc.edu) wrote:
>If I'm not mistaken, I remember Sean Reynolds (the TSR Online
>Coordinator) mentioning that one of his projects was to bring the L&L
>(2nd ed.) materials on-line.
You are correct. It's next on my list after I get the U series
and the Grand Conjunction series online.
--
Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/
"Make one person happy each day and in forty years you will have made
14,600 human beings happy for a little time at least."
- Charley Willey
Eric Boyd
In article <00001f3e...@msn.com>,
William McCarthy <dat...@msn.com> wrote:
>I also think it was ridiculous to take out Demons and Devils from
>D&D. Planescape pretty much put them back in though. The
>right-wingers just do not know the game well enough to figure it out.
I heard once (but I have no idea if it is true or not) that the
reinsertion of demons and devils is even more blatant than commonly
known among gamers. According to this person, "tanar'ri" and "baatezu"
are ancient Babylonian (or some similar ancient culture) terms for--
drum roll--demon and devil, respectively.
Anyone know if this is true?
Eric
TSR Online Coordinator
A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
R. John Morrow (bf...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
> Indeed, Terry is right. You can tell the real old time Deities
>and Demigods because it has the Nehwon mythos in it. Mine is collecting
>dust in the basement...
All right, I'm going to try to clear this up as best I can. There
have been the following versions of "core" AD&D rulebooks about
deities:
Deities & Demigods (contains Elric and Cthulhu mythoi)
Deities & Demigods (without Elric or Cthulhu mythoi)
Legends & Lore (same book as #2, with a different title & cover)
Legends & Lore (2nd edition version of the above ... rather than
having stats for the actual deities, it has stats for their avatars;
also has info on specialty priests for the deities; Babylonian, Finnish,
Nonhuman and Sumerian deities are absent, and there are some name
changes to the pantheons - "Central American" became "Atzec," "Arthurian
Heroes" became "Arthurian Mythology")
All four of the above versions contain information on the gods of
Fritz Leiber's Nehwon setting.
Any corrections, folks?
--
Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/
"Vote Republican. Its easier than thinking."
Terry Austin
sin...@netcom.com (Joshua Jasper) wrote:
> Wrongo, the dietys and demigods book exists with the same text as
>the legends and lore book in a later edition. I in fact, _own_ bolth of
>these editions, same cover and everything.
Dieties and Demigods had at least three different editions, with
changes in each one. There were several mythos removed before they
settled on a final format.
The Amorphous Mass
bo...@ch.apollo.hp.com (Eric Boyd) wrote:
>
>I heard once (but I have no idea if it is true or not) that the
>reinsertion of demons and devils is even more blatant than commonly
>known among gamers. According to this person, "tanar'ri" and "baatezu"
>are ancient Babylonian (or some similar ancient culture) terms for--
>drum roll--demon and devil, respectively.
I would tend to doubt that, since demon is just a transliteration of
the Greek "daemon" which simply means "spirit" (someone in a state of
/eudaemon/ was literally in "good spirits"). The association of "demon"
with "nasty infernal bugger" is recent; the UNIX communities usage of
daemon is actually closer to the original meaning. I don't know whether
the ancient Babylonians split infernal spirits into two categories or not;
I'm pretty sure they believed in what we would call "demons" -- malign
spirits that went around wreaking havoc.
--
The Amorphous Mass "The trees are all burning
james-r...@uiowa.edu in your promised land." -- L. Cohen
JL
"J. McGuire" <7322...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>Back to the Al-Qadim thing...if you removed everything that is used as a
>name of the primary god in even the three major religions, you'd have a
>rather sparse language to work with. There are a *lot* of 'names of God'
>out there!
I personally prefer to call mine: Bob
It's nice and short, only has a single syllable, and it's easy to
scream out when you need divine intervention (it also confuses the
heck out of people).
I am, of course, kidding.
But if you didn't realize that, send me your address and I'll mail you
the money for therapy.
And if you bought that...
-Oarim
Keith Barber
In article <00001f3e...@msn.com>,
dat...@msn.com (William McCarthy) wrote:
>Yes, I remember that post, he said they asked a University of
>Wisconsin professor to check on it, but he must not have known of the
>99 sobriquets very well. His Arabic or knowledge of Islam might not
>have been very good. This is not unusual for academics to have
>sub-fluent language skills in their field of concentration
>(especially after many years of not being abroad to use these
>skills).
So since you know all please tell us why we should honor your comments above
the opinion of a tenured professor, give your credentials or pack it in.
>Yes, so that means that TSR supported this policy actively for almost
>20 years. Especially when considering that Deities and Demigods went
>through two transitions (from Cthulu and Melnibone to taking them
>out) then to two renditions of Legends and Lore (from practically a
>carbon copy of Deities and Demigods to taking out the stats of the
>"gods" and introducing the concept of avatars), TSR never saw fit to
>take out some mythoi which could have offended some people.
If you remove everything which could offend *someone* you will have nothing
but blank pages.
>I imagine that eventually TSR will put out another rendition of
>Legends and Lore (it is pretty central to the game with clerics being
>used). The question is: what will they do next time?
>
They have said that it will not be reissued, and what I find offensive is your
patronizing dismissal of the entire Pagan community as little cults.
I also find your presumption that you are entitled to be offended on behalf of
the gods blasphemous.
-----
Keith M. Barber
k...@ior.com
http://www.ior.com/~kmb/
Mr Mad
William McCarthy wrote:
>
> >>
> I once asked my Arabic cousin - in - law what "Al Quadim" meant, and
> he said that it translated roughly as "The Old times or Old way." I told
> him
> where the phrase came from and he didn't seem offended at all. So, maybe
> the orginal
> poster should lighten up or do a little more research
> >>
>
> Um, well you should do some more research because Al-Qadim is one of
> the 99 sobriquets for Allah. Plus, is your Arabic cousin a Muslim?
> Definitely not all Arabs are Muslims, which is a common erroneous
> assumption that many Americans make. Plus I never said that it was
> or was not offensive, it was a comment of curiousity. Perhaps you
> should read more carefully.
He is a Sunnite Muslim to be precise.
In any case, perhaps you should more catious about ASSUME ing
as in making an ASS out of U and ME!!
R. John Morrow
Terry Austin (tau...@hyperbooks.com) writes:
> sin...@netcom.com (Joshua Jasper) wrote:
>
>> Wrongo, the dietys and demigods book exists with the same text as
>>the legends and lore book in a later edition. I in fact, _own_ bolth of
>>these editions, same cover and everything.
>
> Dieties and Demigods had at least three different editions, with
> changes in each one. There were several mythos removed before they
> settled on a final format.
>
Indeed, Terry is right. You can tell the real old time Deities
and Demigods because it has the Nehwon mythos in it. Mine is collecting
dust in the basement...
David Dylan
Hi Terry Austin, hope you are having a nice day
19-Aug-96 20:25:55, Terry Austin wrote to All
Subject: Re: TSR D&D religions blasphemous and insulting?
TA> It's a troll, intentional or not, and it's working.
TA> Next week, there will be at least 150 articles in this thread, and 125
TA> of them will include profanity or other namecalling, and few of those
TA> will have anything else.
only if we allow it... only if we allow it.
We are the newsgroup!
Greetz.
DD.
David Dylan
Hi JL , hope you are having a nice day
I read once in a Douglas Adams book, a nice explanation of
astrology, it basicly said that it had nothing to do with stars,
but only with the framework they provided.
It's a way of looking at things that allows you to make sense of it,
the actual rocks floating through space have nothing to do with it.
get my point yet?
no? , I'll explain.
Religion is basicly a set of rules and practices that
help you make sense of your life, your emotions, and etc.
Along with it comes the BELIEF (IE, in your eyes FACT)
that a superpower, a god or a set of gods is/are there.
The practices, the names, the books, the objects...
they are all lumps of rock floating through space.
In the end of the day, you are the one who counts, your
emotions, your sense of security, etc.
Does it matter how and to whom you adress your prayers if the
outcome is the same?
Don't hurt eachothers feelings, and just be happy with your chosen
form of worship,
AND LETS GET BACK ON TOPIC!!
Greetz.
DD.
-=> Yours sincerely, David Dylan <=-
Joshua Jasper
In article <4vb2n1$6...@news.corpcomm.net>, JL <slei...@northernnet.com> wrote:
>"Mr. Mad" <mlm...@pop.uky.edu> wrote:
>
>
>> Actually it is. The Cuthulu mythos and one other was removed from
>>Legends and Lore to avoid a lawsuit from the original author. You are
>>right to say there is nothin *new* in it though.
>
>Actually, no.
>The Cuthulu mythos was removed from the original printing of Dieties
>and Demigods, which retained it's name for the second and subsequent
>printings, up until they changed the name for the 2nd Ed version to
><drum roll> LEGENDS & LORE.
>
>-Oarim
>(who would love to get his hands on an edition of Dieties and Demigods
>with the Cthulu mythos in it!!! Cause he has the one that doesn't)
There are usualy coppys for sale at most major gaming gatherings
in the dealers/barter areas.
Sinboy
David Dylan
Hi Julie Heckman, hope you are having a nice day
JH> You're right about mixing the Celtic Mythos... There's a little bit of
JH> everything in that pantheon. The Druids most certainly did perform
JH> human sacrifice, however.
There's no proof of that.
Bertil Jonell
In article <1996Aug19....@tennis.opus1.com>, <ash...@opus1.com> wrote:
>What culture made Loviatar and Tyr?
Finnish and Norse, respectively.
And Tymora is (greek) Tyche with the serial numbers filed off. In
early Forgotten Realms articles in Dragon Tyche was even named Tyche,
with 'Tymora' given as a variant name in some places (like Bob Salvatore's
misspelling 'Lloth':)
>Blake
-bertil-
--
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
exercise for your kill-file."
David K. Lewis
In article <sinboyDw...@netcom.com>, sin...@netcom.com (Joshua Jasper) writes:
> In article <3217D3...@pop.uky.edu>, Mr. Mad <mlm...@pop.uky.edu> wrote:
> >Joshua Jasper wrote:
> >
> > Actually it is. The Cuthulu mythos and one other was removed from
> >Legends and Lore to avoid a lawsuit from the original author. You are
> >right to say there is nothin *new* in it though.
>
> the legends and lore book in a later edition. I in fact, _own_ bolth of
> these editions, same cover and everything.
You are both correct in a sense, the first printing of Deities & Demigods
book had both the Cuthulu and Melnibonian mythos presented for our use,
but lawsuits forced them to remove it in later printings. And I'm pretty
sure that these later printings were identical the the renamed book called
Legends and Lore, however the 2nd edition L&L is much different.
As always any opinions I may have written above are mine and mine alone.
Dave.
Sea Wasp
William McCarthy wrote:
> I know that the way the Chinese "mythos" is presented is an affront
> to many Chinese Buddhists. Chinese-Americans whom I have gamed with
> were shocked when they saw stats for Kuan-yin and pretty insulted as
> well. They asked where's Jesus, Mohammed and Abraham, and all I
> could say was "er, I don't know." They then concluded that the
> makers of D&D were ethnocentrists and what could I say?
Say that if TSR was in China, then you'd find Jesus, Mohammed,
and Abraham, but not Kuan-Yin, if it ticked off people.
It's not ethnocentrism, at least not entirely. For the most
part, it's self-preservation. The Christian Far Right has a
history of being reactionary and close-minded and carries
a fair amount of political clout (which Chinese Buddhists don't
in this country).
And I say again, if it shocks and insults people to see their
deities in game stats, they take the game way too seriously.
(and I'd also note that a number of movies and TV series that
are quite popular in China and Japan do quite a bit of violence
to their own myths; a classic example is Dragonball, which is
a truly twisted version of _Journey to the West_).
. I did not say that all real
> world religions should not be included in D&D, just that there should
> be FAIRNESS (that's the key to what I am saying). If you include all
> the rest, except for the big three known in the West, then that is
> unfair and smacks of favoritism.
Again; not favoritism, just practicality. You worry about the
twits who CAN hurt you, not the fanatics who can't. And here
in the USA, it's those Big Three that can hurt you. Unless
the Nordics, for instance, start emulating the Vikings of old,
their protests aren't likely to cause TSR or any decent sized
company any trouble. Billy Graham or Jerry Falwell, on the other
hand, CAN cause companies trouble.
>
> To Seawasp:
>
>
> I agree, if someone cannot handle their deity being in the game, they
> don't have to play with that deity. Just put all the deities into
> the game, so the players and DMs can decide who to put in and who to
> leave out.
Can't do it, especially if we were to attempt it in the accurate
fashion you describe. The Norse Mythos alone would take up a
large book. You'd be looking at a few hundred books (there are a
LOT of world religions).
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
JL
ash...@opus1.com is rumored to have spoken thusly:
>What culture made Loviatar and Tyr?
Loviatar is from the Finnish mythos, and Tyr is from the Norse.
JL
ash...@opus1.com is rumored to have spoken thusly:
>Very true. I'll probably regret saying this, but wasn't it the more
>natural, easy-going religions (Wicca, Druidism, the Asatru, Hindu,
>etc.) that were around BEFORE Christianity? I'd certainly like to
>have seen how our world would have turned out (likely for the better?)
>if the polytheistic or mystic religions had remained dominant?
Though this really belongs more in alt.religion.pagan
(soc.pagan---yes!! finally a moderated group!!!), I'll indulge myself
this once.
I've thought about this quite a bit and come to the conclusion that
things may not have turned out for the better. Being that
historically, Asatru and Druidism (Wicca is a modern religion, BTW)
were not as <ahem> "easy going" as today. By this I mean that there
were any number of practices in the original religions which are not
currently implemented today (sacrifice comes to mind), as better ways
of performing these symbolic rituals have been found.
Also, every thing has phases of growth (ie--learning) generally
sparked by the making of mistakes, and humanity as a whole may not
have learned the many things we have learned today if the mistakes of
the past had not been made.
For example: How aware would we be of the depths to which racism can
sink if Hitler had never appeared and the concentration camps had
never been created?
Or how environmentally aware if the ozone hole had never been
detected?
I believe that there are probably better ways of learning these sorts
of lessons, except that humanity as a whole does not seem to be ready
to try and learn anything except through adversity.
Unfortunately, I see that humanity is also in the middle of it's
growing pains during this period, so we are not out of the fire yet.
Or perhaps this is merely a cop out on my part?
Something to think about(tm).
Terry Austin
slei...@northernnet.com (JL) wrote:
>That's right, and the ones (like me) who practice the "alternative"
>religions (Gods, I hate that term),
Would you prefer "cult?" Or "mail order pagan?" Or "peace loving
wanna-be viking farmer?" I've heard your beliefs described by all
these.
Maybe "alternative" isn't so bad after all, eh?
---------------------------------
Terry Austin
Hyperbooks Online Bookstore
New at Hyperbooks:
Character Constructor for CORPS, by Bruce Kvam
http://www.well.com/user/taustin
---------------------------------
???
>If you remove everything which could offend *someone* you will have nothing
>but blank pages.
As a consumer, I would find blank pages VERY offensive.
- LK
Joshua Jasper
In article <4veatq$7...@news1.ni.net>,
Terry Austin <tau...@hyperbooks.com> wrote:
>slei...@northernnet.com (JL) wrote:
>
>>That's right, and the ones (like me) who practice the "alternative"
>>religions (Gods, I hate that term),
>
>Would you prefer "cult?" Or "mail order pagan?" Or "peace loving
>wanna-be viking farmer?" I've heard your beliefs described by all
>these.
>
>Maybe "alternative" isn't so bad after all, eh?
>
>---------------------------------
>Terry Austin
Thank goodness I'm a Buddhist. No, wait, any white guy who's a
Buddhist practices an alternative religion as well, *Doh*!
Sinboy
J. McGuire
R. John Morrow wrote:
<snip>
> Let's get down to the real issue, which is the absurdity of
> publishing stats for "gods" at all. I never use their stats. I use the
> descriptions of the church and priesthood etc, but what the hell do you
> need an AC for a god for.
I'm definitely with you on that one. In my world, you _can't_ swing a sword
at Zeus, because he doesn't _exist_ in the sense that you and the sword do.
The gods are certainly real...but they are not any type of physical beings.
They are essentially some sort of metaphysical construct powered by, and
acting through, their worshippers. Which means, among other things, they're
far from omnipotent: Any given deity is virtually powerless in an area where
it has no believers. (not necessarily worshippers...belief alone provides a
sort of anchor for the god-force to touch reality)
So the dwarven god Moradin (lifted from the TSR mythos) isn't some sort of
big, tough, immortal dwarf -- he's what dwarves think of when they think about
strength, craft skill, and all the other things at the heart of dwarf-ness.
In a sense, man created god(s) in his own image. People might invent stories
about their gods...wars between them, great adventures, whatever...but they
are just that: Stories, told by believers who assume that gods are beings sort
of like themselves.
I've found that this works quite well in a RPG setting. It avoids most of the
problem with pantheons tripping over each other, especially the TSR approach of
assigning them all to planes as though they were college dorms. 8-) And it not
only gives a good reason for gods to want worshippers, it gives their clerics a
*strong* reason to help them get 'em. If you're the only cleric of Odin within
five hundred miles, you're just not going to be able to tap into the god-power
as freely as if you were in the middle of an Odin-worshipping land, standing in
front of a major temple. And, since it takes the gods out of the realm of BEINGS
entirely, it completely avoids the question of whether Thor or Zeus should have
more hit points. A character could no more swing a sword at a god than he could
shoot arrows at love or chop up honor with an ax.
If nothing else, it puts gods back where they belong, rather than wandering
around the game world with classes, levels, and hit points as though they were
retired player-characters.
It works for me, your mileage may vary.
-- JMM
Wintertree Software
http://www.io.com/~wtsoft
J. McGuire
Keith Barber wrote:
<snip>
> If you remove everything which could offend *someone* you will have nothing
> but blank pages.
<snip>
I wonder if Mr. McCarthy has noticed the obvious corollary of his position
that TSR (and everyone else) should not say anything that might offend any
possible person:
What *he* is saying is offensive to *me* -- and quite a few other people.
So, by his own logic, he should not say it!
Odd, isn't it, how he's more than ready to demand that someone else avoid
any possible offense to some nebulous group of people that neither they nor
he have any contact with, but he blatantly insults the people participating
in this thread, and everyone they cite in any way. "YOU can't offend THEM,
but it's okay if I offend YOU"?
Originally, I thought he was actually trying to discuss the issue. But, since
he won't apply the standard he tries to hold others to in his own postings,
it's obvious that he is indeed trolling for flames.
alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.butts alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.cartoons alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.cheerleaders alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.children alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.d alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.facia
In article <4vcp1h$e...@nyheter.chalmers.se>, d9be...@dtek.chalmers.se
(Bertil Jonell) wrote:
> In article <1996Aug19....@tennis.opus1.com>, <ash...@opus1.com> wrote:
> >What culture made Loviatar and Tyr?
>
> Finnish and Norse, respectively.
>
> And Tymora is (greek) Tyche with the serial numbers filed off. In
> early Forgotten Realms articles in Dragon Tyche was even named Tyche,
> with 'Tymora' given as a variant name in some places (like Bob Salvatore's
> misspelling 'Lloth':)
>
> >Blake
>
Ah, but according to the recently-released Faiths and Avatars book, Tyche
was once a goddess herself, who was split into Beshaba and Tymora in an
earlier Avatar-style crisis.
Ah, godly retcon!
Jeff G.
--
-----
Max, Press the Button!
- Prof. Fate
Kiran Arora
In article <3216AB...@stonehill.org>, Kasumi <kasumi.tendo@worldnet.
att.net> writes
>>
>> Did anyone at TSR do some research before naming their Arabian
>> setting Al-Qadim? Al-Qadim is one of the 99 sobriquets Muslims use
>> to refer to Allah.
>> Shouldn't there be a major
>> overhaul in D&D to get rid of these offensive materials?
Strange attitude. I would have thought that people would be more
offended if the god they believed in was *left out*!
I'm guessing but I gues the reason that TSR haven't included Christian
mythos before now is that is was just not 'exotic' enough for their
original campaign settings. However, now that D&D has spread across the
world and now that there are extensive settings for Paladins/Crusaders
it is probably time that "God" got and entry and some stats.
--
Simon Nugent
Robert Blanchard
&> Legends & Lore, and stuck with the pantheons they had created.
&
Since when, TSR did not create Lovitar and that goddess is still in "Faiths
and Avatars". if they stuck with the pantheons they created, then I ask you
"why are the Einheriar in planescape"? If they stuck to pantheons they created
then I ask you "why is there a Nymph in the monstous compenpium"? there is
hardly a deity mentioned in greek religious texts more often than the nymphs,
hell some of them even had names, IE: Calypso. TSR just likes to pick and
choose what it claims it actually "created".
Bob. " You let down your people Evita, you were
r...@ior.com supposed to have been immortal. Thats all they
bob...@aol.com wanted, not much to ask for, but in the end you
http://www.ior.com/~rrb could not deliver"
Joe Feyas
Eric Boyd wrote:
>
> In article <00001f3e...@msn.com>,
> William McCarthy <dat...@msn.com> wrote:
> >I also think it was ridiculous to take out Demons and Devils from
> >D&D. Planescape pretty much put them back in though. The
> >right-wingers just do not know the game well enough to figure it out.
>
> reinsertion of demons and devils is even more blatant than commonly
> known among gamers. According to this person, "tanar'ri" and "baatezu"
> are ancient Babylonian (or some similar ancient culture) terms for--
> drum roll--demon and devil, respectively.
>
>
race of creatures similar to Tanar'ri I can remember...maybe Elric or
Amber chronicles?
Joe
--
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to
forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all
unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9
Julie Heckman
ash...@opus1.com wrote:
>What culture made Loviatar and Tyr?
Loviatar is Finnish, and Tyr is Norse. Mielikki is Finnish, as well.
Erin
-----
"Bob Dole never met a tax he didn't hike... When Bob Dole talks
about leadership for the future, (remember) he's the man who
led the fight for five major tax increases in the past five
years." -Jack Kemp [St. Petersburg Times]
*email: er...@cts.com
*Web: http://www.users.cts.com/sd/e/erin
*Copyright Julie Heckman, 1996. Reproduction or redistribution
of the above on the Microsoft Network is strictly prohibited.
R. John Morrow
TSR Online Coordinator (skr...@netcom.com) writes:
> A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
>
> All right, I'm going to try to clear this up as best I can. There
> have been the following versions of "core" AD&D rulebooks about
> deities:
>
> Deities & Demigods (contains Elric and Cthulhu mythoi)
> Deities & Demigods (without Elric or Cthulhu mythoi)
> Legends & Lore (same book as #2, with a different title & cover)
> Legends & Lore (2nd edition version of the above ... rather than
> having stats for the actual deities, it has stats for their avatars;
> also has info on specialty priests for the deities; Babylonian, Finnish,
> Nonhuman and Sumerian deities are absent, and there are some name
> changes to the pantheons - "Central American" became "Atzec," "Arthurian
> Heroes" became "Arthurian Mythology")
>
> All four of the above versions contain information on the gods of
> Fritz Leiber's Nehwon setting.
ooops. My error. I meant the Elric (Melnibonean?) mythos, not
the Nehwon one. Mea culpa.
Joshua Jasper
In article <b46_960...@eagle.xs4all.nl>,
Wow, thank you for clearing up over 2000 years of debate between
varying schools of metaphysics, epistimology and theology, when is
Harvard calling you up to chair thier religions and philosophy departments?
Sinboy
David Dylan
Hi ash...@opus1.com , hope you are having a nice day
a> >That's right, and the ones (like me) who practice the "alternative"
a> >religions (Gods, I hate that term), usually have been role-players for
a> >years and it doesn't bug us, because we know how to do this really
a> >cool thing:
a> >Seperate a Game from Real Life!!!
a> >There are any number of non-RPGers (and some RPGers) who could learn
a> >that particular skill.
a> Very true. I'll probably regret saying this, but wasn't it the more
a> natural, easy-going religions (Wicca, Druidism, the Asatru, Hindu,
a> etc.) that were around BEFORE Christianity? I'd certainly like to
a> have seen how our world would have turned out (likely for the better?)
a> if the polytheistic or mystic religions had remained dominant?
Do you really think so? I doubt it. I think it was the power that corrupted
the big three, christianity is particular. There are just way too many
'believers'out there who are just vicious sheep. Picture these as
followers of your religion of choice.....
Avatar
Christen Yum Yuen (ez02...@rocky.ucdavis.edu) wrote:
:
: None of the three "core" books (PHB, DMG, and MM) requires any
: info from L&L. And 2nd ed. L&L wasn't all that great; the specialty
: priests were a bit under-powered (compared to the new Faiths and
: Avatars, which over-powers them a bit), and not all priests were
: equally attractive to play (sure, one might argue that any person who
: refuses to play a priest of deity X because of poor sphere access or
: weapon restrictions is worrying more about min/maxing than role-playing,
: but it still doesn't excuse a lack of balance on the part of L&L).
I really liked the Legends and Lore book. I liked the slightly lower
powered speicialty priests. We use specialty priests exclusively in our
games (no clerics here....). We had plenty of people play what would be
considered "less attracitve" specialty priests because it was the type of
character they wanted to play. Just because some of the specialty priests
didn't get a lot of neat toys to play with does not make for a bad book.
Otherwise the book was interesting and well written.
:
: I'm hoping TSR decides to revamp the entire L&L book so that the
: specialty priests are all of a consistent power-level (perhaps a tad less
: powerful than the F&A priesthoods). And if they can make it as big as
: F&A, with a similar-sized font, I'd probably grab it right off the shelf.
Not all deities are created equal. It stnads to reason that priesthoods
would be the same way. Why would the followers of a weak deity be just as
powerful as a follower of a truly powerful deity?? Having all power levels
similar is not really properly representative of this difference in
influence and power....
Avatar
Joshua Jasper
In article <4ve1k5$a...@news.corpcomm.net>, JL <slei...@northernnet.com> wrote:
>ash...@opus1.com is rumored to have spoken thusly:
>
>
>(soc.pagan---yes!! finally a moderated group!!!), I'll indulge myself
>this once.
>
>I've thought about this quite a bit and come to the conclusion that
>things may not have turned out for the better. Being that
>historically, Asatru and Druidism (Wicca is a modern religion, BTW)
>were not as <ahem> "easy going" as today. By this I mean that there
>were any number of practices in the original religions which are not
>currently implemented today (sacrifice comes to mind), as better ways
>of performing these symbolic rituals have been found.
>Also, every thing has phases of growth (ie--learning) generally
>sparked by the making of mistakes, and humanity as a whole may not
>have learned the many things we have learned today if the mistakes of
>the past had not been made.
>For example: How aware would we be of the depths to which racism can
>sink if Hitler had never appeared and the concentration camps had
>never been created?
You are now under notice for invoking godwin's law, thank you for
making this thread live up to the rest of the 99% crap - 1% content ratio
of internet newsgroup posts :)
Sinboy
JL
bf...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (R. John Morrow) is rumored to have spoken
thusly:
> Indeed, Terry is right. You can tell the real old time Deities
>and Demigods because it has the Nehwon mythos in it. Mine is collecting
>dust in the basement...
OOPS!
Newhon.
I thought Cthulu and Melnibone...
I've got the one, two of them actually, with Nehwon...
-Oarim
******************************************************
"I stopped playing Magic: The Gathering(tm) when
a booster pack started costing more than a good book."
JL
> Indeed, Terry is right. You can tell the real old time Deities
>and Demigods because it has the Nehwon mythos in it. Mine is collecting
>dust in the basement...
Slams on brakes...
<screeeeeeeech!!!>
Collecting dust?
I'll buy it from you?
How much?
JL
> ooops. My error. I meant the Elric (Melnibonean?) mythos, not
>the Nehwon one. Mea culpa.
OOPS (again).
NOW I'm interested (again).
Terry Austin
nob...@eagle.xs4all.nl (David Dylan) wrote:
>only if we allow it... only if we allow it.
Unfortunately, "we" do not have a single collective will. We have
hundreds of conflicting wills, most of them confrontational by nature.
Many are more interested in confrontation than winning the day. Many
have a particular dogma to push, and little care for how offensive
their mannerisms are.
The worst offense, though is that it's *boring*. The same stale old
insutls, the same stupid namecalling. Not even new jokes.
This thread, as predictied, is already turning into a "pagan vs.
christianity" war, with the "little cults" defending their gods
against the "evil monotheists." As I said, by next week, 150 posts,
125 of them completely off-topic and full of insults and namecalling.
If you have an off button for these people, please use it.
Christen Yum Yuen
Avatar (ava...@netaxs.com) wrote:
: Not all deities are created equal. It stnads to reason that priesthoods
: would be the same way. Why would the followers of a weak deity be just as
: powerful as a follower of a truly powerful deity?? Having all power levels
: similar is not really properly representative of this difference in
: influence and power....
Yes... but...
Like limiting mages by prohibiting the wearing of armor and all
that other jazz, classes should be about roughly equal in power (or make
up for the difference with costlier or cheaper Exp. point progression
tables). For the same reason, I like it when kits have enough special
hinderances to make up for their bonuses. I've always been big on
"fairness", such as it were. 'Course, little in life is fair.
Another thing that bugged me was that the major and minor spheres
a priest has access to are strung together in a single entry, and the only
way to tell which is which is to see if it's marked by an asterix (*).
And that's one *small* asterix they chose to use... (2nd ed. at any rate).
--
_______________________________________________________________________
Chris Yuen | "Shedding off one more layer of skin.
Lab Assistant | Keeping one step ahead of the persecutor within."
TGRC, UC Davis | - Bob, "Jokerman"
_______________________________________________________________________
Terry Austin
k...@ior.com (Keith Barber) wrote:
>If you remove everything which could offend *someone* you will have nothing
>but blank pages.
And some would fine *that* offensive.
JL
sin...@netcom.com (Joshua Jasper) is rumored to have spoken thusly:
>In article <4vb2n1$6...@news.corpcomm.net>, JL <slei...@northernnet.com> wrote:
>>Actually, no.
>>The Cuthulu mythos was removed from the original printing of Dieties
>>and Demigods, which retained it's name for the second and subsequent
>>printings, up until they changed the name for the 2nd Ed version to
>><drum roll> LEGENDS & LORE.
>>
>>-Oarim
>>(who would love to get his hands on an edition of Dieties and Demigods
>>with the Cthulu mythos in it!!! Cause he has the one that doesn't)
> There are usualy coppys for sale at most major gaming gatherings
>in the dealers/barter areas.
That's useful to know, especially since I've never attended any Cons,
and can't see that I will be for the forseeable future...
<sigh>
Pregnancy sure puts a strain on the pocketbook.
Thanks anyways!
-Oarim
***************************************
| There are times when you can feel
| the Quickening in the Wind,
---
/ | \ There are times when you can feel
--+-- the Earth begin to sing!
\ | / -Oarim
JL
nob...@eagle.xs4all.nl (David Dylan) is rumored to have spoken
thusly:
>Hi Julie Heckman, hope you are having a nice day
> JH> You're right about mixing the Celtic Mythos... There's a little bit of
> JH> everything in that pantheon. The Druids most certainly did perform
> JH> human sacrifice, however.
>There's no proof of that.
Yes there is.
Try reading a number of books on classical Celtic religious structure.
They sacrificed the willing (who generally allowed it to be done to
empower a ritual, and because of a belief in a form of reincarnation),
and prisioners whom they captured.
The peat-bog mummies come to mind as remains of sacrifices...
JL
sin...@netcom.com (Joshua Jasper) is rumored to have spoken thusly:
> You are now under notice for invoking godwin's law, thank you for
>making this thread live up to the rest of the 99% crap - 1% content ratio
>of internet newsgroup posts :)
:)
That's what I'm here for!
I'm alot like a butter knife...
I spread Chaos in my wake.
:)
JL
tau...@hyperbooks.com (Terry Austin) is rumored to have spoken
thusly:
>slei...@northernnet.com (JL) wrote:
>>That's right, and the ones (like me) who practice the "alternative"
>>religions (Gods, I hate that term),
>Would you prefer "cult?" Or "mail order pagan?" Or "peace loving
>wanna-be viking farmer?" I've heard your beliefs described by all
>these.
>Maybe "alternative" isn't so bad after all, eh?
Every so often, the Universe comes along and gives you a kick in the
head to open up your eyes, often through strange channels...
And I've never seen a channel as strange as you, Terry!!
:D
I guess "alternative" ISN'T so bad after all!
JL
nob...@eagle.xs4all.nl (David Dylan) is rumored to have spoken
thusly:
>Hi JL , hope you are having a nice day
Hi yourself! :)
And today is better than the rest of my week.
>I read once in a Douglas Adams book, a nice explanation of
>astrology, it basicly said that it had nothing to do with stars,
>but only with the framework they provided.
>It's a way of looking at things that allows you to make sense of it,
>the actual rocks floating through space have nothing to do with it.
Uh-huh. As a Wiccan and Ceremonialist Magickian I understand it.
(I also think Douglas Adams is a pretty cool author! Though "Mostly
Harmless" was a cop-out of a book)
>get my point yet?
Yes.
>no? , I'll explain.
Go ahead.
>Religion is basicly a set of rules and practices that
>help you make sense of your life, your emotions, and etc...
<snip>
I'm not quite sure why you addressed this to me...
<a slightly puzzled>
Bruce L Grubb
In article <4v9vsd$p...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, tsrs...@aol.com (TSR
Steve) wrote:
> Robert Blanchard wrote:
>
> > this is almost verbatim the reason that TSR pulled legends and lore
> > from print.
>
> Gee, and here I thought it was because no one was buying it. Silly me.
IMHO the problems Legends and Lore had was symptomatic of the whole
Alignment system problem. Even the Outer Planes were set up by Alignments
which resulted in beings of totally unrelated panthions meeting with each
other.
Try to imagine Set, Satan, Tiamat, and Hades (all Lawful Evil) trying
interreact and you get an small idea of the total mess that existed in the
Outer Planes.
In several cases one had entire panthions of Dieties scattered over three
or more Planes due to alignment.
Dragon's (#101) _For King and Country_ was even more blunt in showing that
the alignment system was (and IMHO still is) a total disaster.
Dieties and beings who were not supposed to interact do and ones who
_need_ to interact cannot. Then to compound the problem these beings are
given stats like hit points and class levels. Great like characters are
going to fight these beings?
Robert Enters
Joshua Jasper (sin...@netcom.com) awoke to murmur to the masses:
<snip>
Well. Long as no Gods are banging on T$R's door to demand to be
included or excluded into the books, or feel their stats should be
altered, who are their ephemeral followers to complain? Pfhaw. What
presumption. If _I_ were a God, I would not let the mortals dicitate
public relations policy for sure! ;)
Greetz & ;),
Whisper!
--
____ ____ - = | Whisper! | = - a.k.a. CNN, Ranma, Cmdr. CA$H
\\ |||| // email:ent...@nijenrode.nl, website:www.nijenrode.nl/~enters
D.\\S.//I. Founding Member DSI, SITI, The Lanathus Circle
\/ "Ceterum Censeo Chinam Esse Delendam","Whatever!"
"Who? Me?? Nobody saw me do it! You can't prove a thing! The Alien did it!"