Big Brother, The End of our second site in 6 months, the Universe Everything

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Matthew Karafa

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Jul 26, 1994, 9:08:12 AM7/26/94
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Ok Mainly I am posting to pose this question-- with the end of GreyHawk earlier this year and the recent loss of MPGN for the time being--what is the feeling/response/attitude of the Net about this?? I mean let's face it -- we can't
just keep setting up sites and then having them fall by the wayside for various reasons-- ranging from copyright problems to overloads!! I for one am greatly saddened that the exchange of information/ideas is beginning to be hindered on the Net.
I guess we will just have to create a site overseas where they are not so nice about copyright laws, but then that wouldn't be right eitherr would it?

It is just sad the George Orwell was soooooo right!!!!!!!

just my $0.02-- what's your's??? Hmmm???


Jason Stephenson

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Jul 26, 1994, 9:37:43 AM7/26/94
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FTP sites could still be viable. You must strip all material of references
to specific game systems. Only put in the names and races of monsters/NPCs
et cetera. Don't use settings described in published works; create your
own or don't mention the setting. Just give us plot. The above would also
make your work suitable for use with many other game systems and wouldn't
tie you to the *DnD audience.

+----------------------------+-----------------------------+
| Jason Stephenson | "Curiouser and curiouser," |
| jjst...@ukcc.uky.edu | said Alice. |
+----------------------------+-----------------------------+

Amelia Hunt

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Jul 26, 1994, 10:56:08 AM7/26/94
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With the closing of mpgm.com due to feared legal action from T$R,
how much longer can the loyal T$R Net-ers defend the corp.'s actions and
direction? Can't they see that T$R is a dinosaur, gleefully running in
its ignorance into a giant tar pit? The following is a wake up call for T$R:

W W A K K EEEEEEEEE
W W W A A K K EE
W w w W A A K K EE
W W W W AAAAAAA KKK EEEEEEE
W W W W A A K K EE
W W W W A A K K EE
WW WW A A K K EEEEEEEEE


UU UU PPPPPPPP !!!
UU UU PP PP !!!
UU UU PP PP !!!
UU UU PPPPPP !!!
UU UU PP !!!
UU UU PP
UUUUUUUUU PP !!!


Can't you see what you are doing?! You are killing the spirit
of your invention, the role-playing game, in the name of money. If
you do not realize this, then it is high time that you step down,
resign, and let a new, younger generation take the torch. Your ideas
are tried and true, but they are tired and over-used, let someone
with a fresh vision, one closer to the ideal thought up by Gygax,
Livingston, Jackson, an others. We will not stand for this desecration!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Nightshade
Email: Ame...@Academic.STU.StThomasU.Ca

Brian Trosko

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Jul 26, 1994, 1:55:52 PM7/26/94
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Matthew Karafa (mka...@bio.ri.ccf.org) wrote:


: It is just sad the George Orwell was soooooo right!!!!!!!

Now, let's get real here. There's a big difference between being a bit
overzealous in protecting your copyrighted products and running a
totalitarian state in which all undesired thought or action results in
the torture and death of the offending individual. TSR ain't breakin'
down your apartment door in the middle of the night.

Matthew Karafa

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Jul 26, 1994, 3:39:14 PM7/26/94
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In article 2...@netaxs.com, btr...@netaxs.com (Brian Trosko) writes:

> TSR ain't breakin'
>down your apartment door in the middle of the night.

YET!!!!!

MTK

======================================================================
=Matthew T. Karafa = A zygote is nature's way of making more zygotes =
= mkarafa@ = this may be the purpose of the universe. =
= bio.ri.ccf.org = - Robert A. Heinlein =
======================================================================

Ravnos

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Jul 26, 1994, 5:53:28 PM7/26/94
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I had to leave this in here so that maybe...perhaps...by some off
chance you fools will get it...


> W W A K K EEEEEEEEE
> W W W A A K K EE
> W w w W A A K K EE
> W W W W AAAAAAA KKK EEEEEEE
> W W W W A A K K EE
> W W W W A A K K EE
> WW WW A A K K EEEEEEEEE
>
>
> UU UU PPPPPPPP !!!
> UU UU PP PP !!!
> UU UU PP PP !!!
> UU UU PPPPPP !!!
> UU UU PP !!!
> UU UU PP
> UUUUUUUUU PP !!!
>
>
> Can't you see what you are doing?! You are killing the spirit
> of your invention, the role-playing game, in the name of money. If
> you do not realize this, then it is high time that you step down,
> resign, and let a new, younger generation take the torch. Your ideas
> are tried and true, but they are tired and over-used, let someone
> with a fresh vision, one closer to the ideal thought up by Gygax,
> Livingston, Jackson, an others. We will not stand for this desecration!
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[(c) copyright, 1994, Ravnos. all rights reserved.]
I agree, totally. The things that we once loved are being lost
in the name of money. I don't want to buy a fourty dollar book to
see old rehashed art work, and reworked information. I want new
information, new art work. Just because T$R has pretty much a
monopoly on the fantasy gaming world they think that it is alright to
rip off their fans. Well, I for one won't stand for it. I see other
smaller companys rising out of T$R's ashes when this is all done.

Just my $0.32 worth...(hey...a guy's gotta make SOME money.)

Ravnos.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
In diffusion of silk move the dark flashing eyes
To awake the dormant with whispers and cries.
-Ravnos.

red...@delphi.com

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Jul 26, 1994, 10:39:00 PM7/26/94
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Jason Stephenson <JJST...@ukcc.uky.edu> writes:

>FTP sites could still be viable. You must strip all material of references
>to specific game systems. Only put in the names and races of monsters/NPCs
>et cetera. Don't use settings described in published works; create your
>own or don't mention the setting. Just give us plot. The above would also
>make your work suitable for use with many other game systems and wouldn't
>tie you to the *DnD audience.

I have been offline for a few weeks, and missed much of the previous
discussion, so please pardon me if I am but repeating the obvious, but:

TSR retains a copyright to published material copyrighted under their
name. They can NOT sue for references to their materials, especiallyh
if a copyright disclaimer is given.

IE, "Ravenloft is a copyright of TSR and is used without permission")

Besides - apart from the obvious of wholesale plagarism of their published
material, such as complete text to the MC information or whatever, shouldn't
TSR *want* us to be designing modules, new monsters, etc for them? It
just advertises them, for one thing, renews interest in their products,
and improves their visibility. If I design a module set in the Forgotten
Realms, that doesn't steal from their existing modules, all I would do is
spark interest in the readers!

(eg, "Hmmm.. this Ravenloft sounds interesting. Perhaps I should
pick up a copy of Forbidden Lore.")

If the messages contain critical comments to TSR products, well then,
TSR better learn to appreciate what thier buying public wants and
develop a better product, rather than seek to sue anyone who refers to
their works!

Just my 2c. No deposit, no return.

Darren

.. Level don't count when yer dead!

Brent Smith

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Jul 27, 1994, 10:36:15 AM7/27/94
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Brian Trosko (btr...@netaxs.com) wrote:
: Matthew Karafa (mka...@bio.ri.ccf.org) wrote:

yet......;-)
--
*************************************************************************
* Brent Smith - *
* American by birth, Swedish by marriage, Cowboy fan by choice... *
* swe...@netcom.com COWBOYS in '9x!!! <pick any number> *
*************************************************************************

Tinggaard

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Jul 27, 1994, 6:32:06 PM7/27/94
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Yes, Amelia. They are.

E.M.

Drowefin Dibrom

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Jul 26, 1994, 1:21:30 PM7/26/94
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JJST...@ukcc.uky.edu (Jason Stephenson) writes:

>FTP sites could still be viable. You must strip all material of references
>to specific game systems. Only put in the names and races of monsters/NPCs
>et cetera. Don't use settings described in published works; create your
>own or don't mention the setting. Just give us plot. The above would also
>make your work suitable for use with many other game systems and wouldn't
>tie you to the *DnD audience.

This is fine for generic stuff like plots. However what will happen to those
of us who are developing ideas and articles for Worlds that no longer
supported by TSR ? I am very interested in how others are handling /
developing Greyhawk. We will never get anything more TSR so why don't they
allow individual developement ? We as a group are providing support for
niche sections which they deem as non-profitable.

For that sake some of the Monster names are TSR copywrited and you can't
use them. And from the orginal posting, anything with ADND references have
to go. So my Word Perfect Character Sheet would have to go since it uses
the TSR stat names (IE: Str, Con, Wis, Int, Cha etc) and THAC0.. I think
that is way overboard, my sheet would never threaten TSR's sheet. Hell, I
wouldn't need it if they ever did a complete sheet.

So I think TSR should turn a blind eye to us, we are not making any money
off them. Plus we are keeping disgrunted players with TSR since they don't
like parts of TSR support (Or Lack of it). Even if we run our own Net-worlds,
we still have to buy their Handbooks, DMG's, MM's, etc. If they piss enough
of us off, we will forsake TSR and find a new game system.

D.D.

==========================================================================
|| Bob Pound || "Don't Tell Me Hard Luck Stories ||
|| rob...@maple.cs.mun.ca || And I Won't Tell You Mine" ||
|| St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada || ---- Neil Young ---- ||
==========================================================================

Ken Arromdee

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Jul 27, 1994, 5:12:11 PM7/27/94
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In article <5ixybYs...@delphi.com>, <red...@delphi.com> wrote:
>I have been offline for a few weeks, and missed much of the previous
>discussion, so please pardon me if I am but repeating the obvious, but:
>TSR retains a copyright to published material copyrighted under their
>name. They can NOT sue for references to their materials, especiallyh
>if a copyright disclaimer is given.

You know this and I know this. Tell it to TSR's lawyers.

TSR probably _would_ lose a suit against someone who keeps a set of monster
descriptions which mention hit dice, armor class, and Neo-Otyughs. But
they can cause a lot of trouble just by suing even if they know they'll lose.
--
Ken Arromdee (email: arro...@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
ObYouKnowWho Bait: Stuffed Turkey with Gravy and Mashed Potatoes

"You, a Decider?" --Romana "I decided not to." --The Doctor

Amelia Hunt

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Jul 28, 1994, 9:53:30 AM7/28/94
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In article <316n96$6...@search01.news.aol.com> ting...@aol.com (Tinggaard) writes:
>Yes, Amelia. They are.

>E.M.
Thank you, they can join the rest of my friends (the ones in my
head- you're not invited). Sorry if just can't seem to join you all at aol.
com in your T$R love-fest.


Nightshade
Prophet of the Anti-T$R
Warmaster of the Revolutionary Army of Myastarra
Leader of the Reformation
Email: Ame...@Academic.STU.StThomasU.Ca

Jonathan P Abel

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Jul 29, 1994, 8:39:37 AM7/29/94
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not yet:)


--
***********************************
* Jonathan 'Alchemist' Abel *
* abe...@ucunix.san.uc.edu *
***********************************

Amelia Hunt

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Jul 29, 1994, 10:16:33 AM7/29/94
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This came across one of my mailing lists. I want all thse who
believe that T$R would never pressure archive servers to purge their systems
to take a good long look at this.


----------- Forwarded message ---------------
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 15:07:18 -0700
From: Shannon D. Appel <ap...@soda.Berkeley.EDU>
To: ars-m...@soda.berkeley.edu
Subject: TSR Copyrights

Just thought you might be interested in the mail that TSR is now sending to
archive sites all over the world (and my, a-hem, irritated reply).

I'm pretty sure that TSR is in the wrong on the whole issue, since they're
not trying to protect copyrights or trademarks, but _ideas_ (ie game
systems) which do _not_ have protection. But, I'm willing to let them stab
themself in the foot. WoTC and the M:TG Juggernaut will roll right over
them.

Shannon

------------- Forwarded Messages

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To: postm...@soda.berkeley.edu
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 94 17:28:59 EDT
Subject: TSR Copyright

System Administrator:

You site was recently included in a list of noted FTP sites for DUNGEONS AND
DRAGONS and ADVANCED DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS gaming material. You should be
awere that DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS and all related marks and properties are
copyrighted TSR, Inc. of Lake Geneva, Wisconsin.

You should also be aware that any items created without a specific licence
are infringements of TSR copyrights. Such items include (but are not
limited to) any software, net.books, modules, tables, stories, or rules
modifications which contain elements from our copyrighted properties,
including characters, settings, realm names, noted magic items, spells,
elements of the gaming system, such as ARMOR CLASS, HIT DICE, and so forth.
To date, TSR has not licenced any of these net publications.

On behalf of TSR, Inc. I ask that you examine your public net sites at this
time and remove any material which infringes on TSR copyrights.

Our intention is to find a way to licence these and future creative
efforts. In the meantime, remove them from your sites without delay.

To clarify reasoning for this request, I recently posted the following
policy statement to rec.games.frp.dnd:

> As we have begun to explore the online community in depth, we've found
> many avid gamers and fans. We're interested in providing you with the
> best in gaming products that meet our own standards of quality, as well as
> suiting other materials entirely for our own use. We think this is
> great! However, when gamers begin sharing their creations with the
> public, wether for profit or not, they are infringing our rights. If we
> don't make an earnest attempt to prevent this infringment of our
> trademarks and copyrights, our ownership of these extremely valuable
> assests may be jeapodized.
>
> A gamer in this situation has a few options. He can strip every TSR
> trademark and all copyright from his creations before putting them in
> public (i.e. "genericize" the adventure). Or he can share his creations
> with the public in a way that is licensed and approved by TSR. This is
> the more desirable solution, as it protects our rights, and still leaves
> room for gamers to share their creative expressions.
>
> Sometime very soon, we're going to create a place where gamers can legally
> upload and share their creations, including modules, stories, and
> software. At that time, I'd be happy to work with you to give your
> product a base to work from. We are definitely interested in fostering
> goodwill among customers, and we'd like to see our upcoming effort as a
> pilot project. Eventually, we want gamers to be able to turn to TSR in
> cyberspace as easily as they do in a hobby store.

Please feel free to contact me with comments or questions. I will refer any
pertinent queries to our legal department as soon as I receive them.


Rob Repp | InterNet: tsr...@aol.com
Manager, Digital Projects Group | InterNet: mob...@mercury.mcs.com
TSR, Inc. | CompuServe: 76217,761
___________________________________| GEnie: TSR.Online AOL: TSR Inc
All opinions are my own, not TSR's | 414-248-3625 Fax 414-248-0389

---------- Message 2

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Jul 1994 14:43:54 -0700
Message-Id: <1994072817...@aol.com>
To: TSR...@aol.com
cc: postm...@soda.Berkeley.EDU, ap...@soda.Berkeley.EDU
Subject: Re: TSR Copryrighted Material
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 28 Jul 1994 17:28:59 EDT." <9407281728.
tn30...@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 14:43:53 -0700
From: "Shannon D. Appel" <ap...@soda.Berkeley.EDU>

TSR:

soda.berkeley.edu maintains absolutely *NO* material for D&D, AD&D or other
T$R games at our FTP site. Rather, soda only supports archives for games
with reasonable legal departments, and T$R has not fallen into that category
for over 15 years. To be honest, I would rather poke my eyes out with a
dull stick than do anything at all to provide any level of support for a
product produced by such a capitalistic, greedy, immoral company as T$R.

In short, you have nothing to worry about from soda. We have never archived
material for T$R products and we never will.

Shannon

---------- End of Forwarded Messages

I know some of you will flame me hard for this "grossly indecent" breech of
Netetiquette. To you I say, Fuck You! I believe in diplomacy, but only when
the other side can claim to have any ammount of honor.


Nightshade
Prophet of the Anti-T$R

Warmaster of the Revolutionary Army of Mystarra
Leader of the Reformation
Email: Ame...@Academic.Stu.StThoamsU.Ca
-- account used with permission --

R.B.

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Jul 29, 1994, 7:08:18 PM7/29/94
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I say BRAVO!!

Robert

Douglas L. Vandenburgh

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Jul 30, 1994, 3:12:27 AM7/30/94
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But they are probably working on it :)

- Doug

--

Kendall Bullen

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Jul 29, 1994, 8:21:21 PM7/29/94
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Dear All,

Wow, I was going to try to avoid posting publicly (and probably will live to
regret it). . . . So, TSR *does* pressure people after all. BUMMER!

tsr> You should also be aware that any items created without a specific
tsr> licence are infringements of TSR copyrights.

Depends on what is in them (whether it's derivative, whether trademarked terms
are acknowledged, etc.).

tsr> Such items include (but are not limited to) any software, net.books,
tsr> modules, tables, stories, or rules modifications which contain
tsr> elements from our copyrighted properties, including characters,
tsr> settings, realm names, noted magic items, spells, elements of the
tsr> gaming system, such as ARMOR CLASS, HIT DICE, and so forth.

Bzzt. Hit dice is used by other gaming systems; I think armor class is as
well. Other terms that they seem to think are 'theirs' are, in fact, not.

tsr> On behalf of TSR, Inc. I ask that you examine your public net sites at
tsr> this time and remove any material which infringes on TSR copyrights.

And trademarks; they're still confused about which is which!

tsr> Our intention is to find a way to licence these and future creative
tsr> efforts. In the meantime, remove them from your sites without delay.

You license them by saying, "Okay, you can publish derivative works on the 'Net
as long as you properly cite any trademarked terms, and any copyrighted
material you base your work on." It's that simple. . . . Why are they
insisting on pretending that they have to ponder it and come up with a
licensing scheme? Excuses, it sounds like to me.

soda> TSR: soda.berkeley.edu maintains absolutely *NO* material for D&D,
soda> AD&D or other T$R games at our FTP site. Rather, soda only supports
soda> archives for games with reasonable legal departments, and T$R has not
soda> fallen into that category for over 15 years. To be honest, I would
soda> rather poke my eyes out with a dull stick than do anything at all to
soda> provide any level of support for a product produced by such a
soda> capitalistic, greedy, immoral company as T$R.

Instead of accusing everyone of treading on their toes, TSR should've looked
into what they were spouting off about. . . . Nifty response. ;)

soda> In short, you have nothing to worry about from soda. We have never
soda> archived material for T$R products and we never will.

Perhaps one day, when (hopefully) TSR becomes more reasonable, you'll consider.
. . .

I hereby place this post in the public domain. ;)

Kendall


Damian Dougan

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Aug 1, 1994, 9:44:00 AM8/1/94
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Amelia Hunt (ame...@academic.stu.StThomasU.ca) wrote:
: This came across one of my mailing lists. I want all thse who
: believe that T$R would never pressure archive servers to purge their systems
: to take a good long look at this.

[T$R message deleted]

: ---------- Message 2

: TSR:

: soda.berkeley.edu maintains absolutely *NO* material for D&D, AD&D or other
: T$R games at our FTP site. Rather, soda only supports archives for games
: with reasonable legal departments, and T$R has not fallen into that category
: for over 15 years. To be honest, I would rather poke my eyes out with a
: dull stick than do anything at all to provide any level of support for a
: product produced by such a capitalistic, greedy, immoral company as T$R.

: In short, you have nothing to worry about from soda. We have never archived
: material for T$R products and we never will.

: Shannon

I love you.

Damien Dougan.

Cedric Chin

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Aug 4, 1994, 3:44:55 PM8/4/94
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In article <5ixybYs...@delphi.com>, red...@delphi.com writes:
|>
|> If the messages contain critical comments to TSR products, well then,
|> TSR better learn to appreciate what thier buying public wants and
|> develop a better product, rather than seek to sue anyone who refers to
|> their works!

You're new around here, aren't you Number Six.


Cedric.

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